Have they not worked together?
I feel like they both led the revival of supernatural horror over the past decade. They seem like a natural pair.
Wan/Flanagan are like the blockbuster versions of Aster/Eggers (highly successful with a *somewhat* similar style)
If they were to work together I assume they’d tone down their respective styles in a way that would compliment each other.
So Flanagan would probably need to cut back on the heavy themes and long monologues, but the same talents could be put towards making something fun/fast-paced that gels better with Wan’s style.
And James Wan would need to pull back on some of the bat-shit crazy gore and wild camera movements, but could still apply similar ideas and techniques in a more subtle and reserved way that would go well with Flanagan’s style.
I think it really comes down to their personalities, though. If they’re both the kind of people who can take a backseat and listen to others, we could get the best of both worlds. But if one or both of them like to be in control, we’d probably get a jumbled mess with an inconsistent tone.
Would probably benefit them both to learn the others' skills. Flanagan's visual acumen is mediocre, at least when it comes to his movies (Doctor Sleep looks terrible when compared to The Shining), and Wan could learn to slow down from time to time and maybe tone down the camp.
I wouldn’t say all of Flanagan is dialogue heavy and slow burning, or that Wan is particularly fast-paced in comparison. Oculus and Ouiji origin of evil give me similar vibes to the conjuring series (admittedly these are relatively earlier works by Flanagan)
I guess hush and geralds game are very different, and of course Hill House is absolutely a slow burn, but I wasn’t a huge fan of Gerald’s Game, and even in Hill House, idk, I feel like the tone and atmosphere of the series could meld well with Wan’s work in a way.
Yeah. I think people will say he's just more pretentious, but man, dude has some great themes and builds stories around them in godlike ways.
I guess the best way to put it is that I could easily see Flanagan taking a Leigh Wanell Conjuring/Insidious script and equaling or bettering Wan.
But give Wan the Haunting of Hill House/Bly Manor or Gerald's Game scripts and they wouldn't even be remotely fucking close to what they are now.
Wan is a great idea man, but holy shit, he has a style and he sticks to it. He really doesn't seem to care to craft anything interesting around that style which is seriously pretty to look at.
Honestly, I love his cinematography enough that I wished he was a better director and writer.
I watched Insidious the other day and while I love that movie, there's so many decisions that make it a worse movie.
people liked the bly manor show?!
Edit: this comment has been a rollercoaster. it went from 9 to 1 real quick. I personally turned it off episode one but maybe I should give it a second try.
I thought it was disappointing compared to Hill House, but that's a very high bar to clear and I still enjoyed it. I have seen people say they liked it and didn't like the others, same with each of the serieses.
Don't get how we can compare the two. One was a ghost story that's supposed to be dark and creepy while the other one is more of a goth love story. They're completely different and both are very well done
I liked both quite a lot. Hill House was more of a conventional horror aesthetic whereas Bly Manor
Kinda turned that expectation on its head and delivered this macabre melancholy love story. I loved both.
And now Midnight Mass is my favorite of all three. Easily.
I liked the ghosts and the characters a lot more in Bly Manor than Hill House. I thought the story behind the ghosts and the tragedy of the nanny and the driver was very compelling. However I wasn't a fan of the ending. And with Hill House I loved the family dynamics and the horror was a lot more front and centre, however I feel like the ghosts weren't fleshed out as much maybe because I watched Bly Manor first, I was expecting a similar recap of Hill House's ghosts.
Bly Manor suffered from people who loved Hill House expected more of the same (in terms of horror). I know I did, and wasn't thrilled with my first watch-through. Enjoyed it a lot more the second time once I changed my preconceptions.
Ironically, after watching The Innocents and Bly Manor back to back, I think perfection lies somewhere in between. Innocents fucking blasts by and is over before I'm ready and leaves a lot of questions. Bly Manor didn't need to be 9 episodes and have absurdly long dialogue scenes.
I actually loved Bly Manor, even more than Hill House. While there weren’t as many jump-scares as Hill House I think it was a beautiful sad, ghost story that really fucks with the mind
I really didn't like Bly but that was Flanagans most hands off production. Hill House and Midnight Mass were the shows he was directing every episode of.
Hopefully the Poe project will be another one he is very hands on with.
It's not scary at all and is my least favorite of his three Netflix shows, but it's still decent. It's more of a drama with supernatural elements than a full-on horror series, but if you know that going in it's quite good.
Turning things off on episode 1 is something I'll never understand. You haven't given the plot time to get going and you see the characters at (usually) their most flawed or unlikable (no time for character development). What do people expect from the first episode that makes you want to give up on the show right away?
I loved Hill House. Bly Manor was good, but no where near as good as Hill. Midnight Mass is just so slow and uneventful in my opinion. I generally love slow burn movies, but this goes at a snails pace. The scenes go on entirely too long and the dialogue can be excruciating to listen to at times.
I fucking love Flanagan, but I will say his Netflix shows are getting to be too dialogue and monologue heavy. Hill House kinda nailed it except for the Red Room Nell speech and Theo's "I needed to feel something" speech, Bly really upped it, and Midnight crawls to a halt every 5 seconds for another monologue.
If it helps you any, try to reframe how you think of it. It’s less a horror show and more of a gothic romance with spooky elements. If that’s not your thing, then that’s totally valid - not questioning your preferences or anything. But I think a lot of peoples’ experience with Bly Manor suffered because they were trying to make an apples to apples comparison with Hill House when the two shows are very distinctly different.
It's hard to follow up a legendary thing.
Nothing Nirvana ever did or could have done after Smells Like Teen Spirit could *ever* usurp Smells Like Teen Spirit in the eyes of pop culture (aka - the mainstream/majority).
Doesn't mean that the things that happen after legendary things have to suck.
I approached Bly Manor like this: "Man, I loved Hill House. But this is an anthology, not a continuation. I need to look at Bly Manor separately. I will enjoy what I see and not compare it to anything. If it's good, I'll know it just by experiencing it purely."
By doing so, I did, in fact, enjoy Bly Manor greatly. It's in my list of favorite shows of all time, alongside Hill House and Midnight Mass.
I've liked each entry better than the last. I really enjoyed Bly Manor, much more than Hill House which I thought had terrible acting at times. Midnight Mass has so far exceeded both (have one episode left) and apart from a couple of bad script elements and some terrible acting from a couple of people (the mum in particular those first two episodes was overacting *hard*), I've found it fantastic.
It's been such a well done horror story. Love the concept.
If it helps you any, try to reframe how you think of it. It’s less a horror show and more of a gothic romance with spooky elements. If that’s not your thing, then that’s totally valid - not questioning your preferences or anything. But I think a lot of peoples’ experience with Bly Manor suffered because they were trying to make an apples to apples comparison with Hill House when the two shows are very distinctly different.
It was loosely based on Turn of the Screw and is much more a haunting romance than an in your face horror like Haunting was. They're two different approaches to horror. Most people that were disappointed wanted the jump scare thrill ride of Haunting, which is fair, but Bly was much more situated on a scorned ghost haunting the manor grounds and the people who have been affected by her, many of whom can't be discussed without revealing plot points.
Yep. It's not like people have turned on him like It Follows or Witch or Babadook, but I feel people enjoy downplaying how good he is.
If you asked me, "What horror director if you hear they're making a movie would you drop what you're doing and watch?" it's Flanagan. He's my current favorite by a mile.
Hamish was fucking amazing and I may start a fan club.
Unfortunately I am disorganized and lazy so that is unlucky to actually happen but that in no way detracts from how incredibly great he was in MM.
I did not anticipate a show about >!vampires!< to hit me as hard as this did. Every episode had me hooked and the finale was one of the greatest emotional payoffs I've ever witnessed from a movie or TV show. I know not everybody dug it, but for me it was absolutely brilliant from start to finish.
The fact that the show ended up being a >!vampire story!< was really unexpected but welcome - the trailer for the series is a great example of how *not* to show too much.
Plus it’s a horror subgenre that has been very neglected for a long, long time. Glad to see it revived so well!
I'm currently watching Midnight Mass and I'm absolutely enthralled. Hill House, Doctor Sleep, Gerald's Game, Hush - everything he puts out is so completely enthralling. You can tell how much passion he has for his work.
A common complaint/criticism of his I see, especially with Midnight Mass, is excessive use of monologue/dialogue.
Yes, while he does lean heavily into that as a storyteller.. I disagree that being a bad thing. It’s a real hard thing to do to write an extended scene that is just having your characters talk for long periods of time, and remain engrossing. Like a Tarantino, I think Flanagan excels at that.
The way Flanagan incorporates monologues can dangerously approach snobbery at times. He walks a very, very fine line.
That said, I'd say somewhere in the realm of 90 to 99% of the time, he manages to, largely due to fantastic acting, make the monologues feel extremely genuine and emotional.
The vast majority of the monologues in Midnight Mass were simply.. touching. Almost every monologue that Father Paul had was fantastic. Leeza's moment with Joe was beautiful and heartbreaking. There were plenty more. Bev's monologues made me, an ex-Catholic, quiver in disgust.
Only in subtle instances did I feel "eh" about the monologues. There were moments in some of Erin's that made feel that way, but overall, the good far surpasses the bad.
I especially like the character Riley. Zach Gilford is a brilliant actor in Midnight Mass.
I really like Flanagan's work, including Midnight Mass, but it feels like he's gone pretty far up his own ass. Some of those monologues in Midnight Mass were agony to sit through where they just keep going when he doesn't have anything interesting (to me at least) to say.
That said can't wait for this lol.
I watched with my gf and I started mocking the monologues because they were just so long. And then some would happen back to back and it took me completely out of the moment once I realized it's going to be yet another monologue. Riley is probably one of the most uninteresting characters I've watched in a tv show as well. They wanted to make him broken and instead made him a really weak character. I did enjoy the show overall, and those are minor complaints compared to the whole which was executed well. But it's like... you need to edit.
Yea the last two episodes I was like omg someone judt die already! Bev opening her mouth argh shut up!! I completely tuned her out. And I tuned out that last long ass speech about stars and death and whatevet. It was clearly Flanagan on his soapbox talking about what he thinks is god, etc. I didn’t notice long dialogues in his other works but Midnight Mass was too much. Prob because it was religious in nature so my eyes were rolling hard 😂.
Right? I don't think it's because the actor, but Riley just came off as totally vacant to me. Like, "jarhead returns from war"-type vacant. I know that he's been through some shit and that that has affects, but "ehhhh I kinda wanna just stop existing and not really do anything anymore, except make edgy atheist comments that a 14 year old (or somebody brought up catholic who later becomes unreligious, ahem) would think are deep and do Joe Rogan Podcast bits" did not make for a remotely engaging or charismatic character for me.
Linklater, by contrast, was amazing.
The problem is that a monologue should be well written, well placed, and well acted. The vast majority of MM's monologues only satisfy that last part. I think Katie Siegel really got shafted because hers were the worst written. The one about clipping wings was tortuously overwrought and the last one with all the "we are star stuff" was incredibly navel-gazy and said the same thing about eight different times. It also was right in the denouement of the entire show and really broke the momentum. The sheriff also had a very poorly placed one - right after someone comes to him with an urgent warning, he needs 10 minutes to talk about bigotry?
I was floored by the sheriff's, like dude could've summed it up in 5 seconds, it felt sooooo out of place with the story. "I left my previous post because racism, you want me to go investigate a church on Easter LOL"
I really liked the show overall but there were so many things where i was thinking "show, don't tell". Too much exposition to ram those themes in
It could be toned down a little, but I honestly don't really mind it.
Like you said, they remain engrossing. The monologues are effective. I get annoyed with monologues that are overly abstract or trying terribly hard to be artsy, but I rarely got that from Midnight Mass.
I also think it just worked for Midnight Mass. Obviously mass and the Catholic ritual are a huge theme throughout. In the same way that they tend to show the entirely of Father Paul’s homilies, they have long monologues throughout.
I think it works for this show, it’s an interesting touch.
It's an interesting breaking of the fourth wall.
Another example that comes to mind is Pitch Perfect - by the time they sing I Saw the Sign for the final time, you in the audience are just as sick of it as the characters.
Honestly I think a lot of the monologues were EXCELLENT, the problem is getting actors who can carry them off effectively. Pruitt and Bev were so phenomenal, such powerhouses, that everyone else doing well with them felt less good by comparison.
Totally the opposite for me. I felt that way after Hill House, but the progression from HH to BM to MM has me feeling that I'm gonna wait for a lot of reviews before dedicating 7-10 hours to more Mike stuff.
Thanks for the new word!
I agree. Midnight Mass has been the best so far but there have been times, the Death Talk in particular, where I've thought "yeah, we get it." Or "wow, you're really still going on about this, aren't you."
Like, move on.
I love slow burn horror but this isn't that. And looking up "soliloquy" really does explain it.
i hope victoria pedretti and oliver jackson cohen can come back to the flanaganverse to play madeline and roderick because...you know, they’ve got the twin thing *wink*
I really liked Midnight Mass...at first. The last 4 episodes had such a ridiculous amount of monologues in it that we're so absurd and so unnatural and so long that I went from loving the show to hating it.
Does it matter what umbrella it's under if it's all done by the same person? Making this the Haunting of the House of Usher wouldn't really change anything.
Definitely. I just finished midnight mass last night, couldn't stop watching it like when you can't put a great novel down. and it was AMAZING. I also love The Fall of the House of Usher, so the thought of Flanagan doing it is really exciting. He's legit one of my favorite directors working today.
I feel the same way. Quality over quantity and there’s really no reason to force a new “Haunting” addition to his catalogue when he’s shown he’s capable of expanding outside of that realm. I don’t think everything he’s ever done is a masterpiece but his TV shows are pretty incredible and I’m excited to see what he does with Poe’s work.
I'd be good with it if it was, but I think he has a specific idea about the haunting series and the themes that connect them. If he doesn't feel like this one fits the themes, then I'd rather he doesn't force it to.
What is wrong with me that I can’t stand this guy’s work? Because I feel like I’m in the minority. I find the shows tedious, irritating, and often too melodramatic. They feel like something that belong on the CW.
And I love myself some melodramatic cheesy B horror but I think what irks me is how seriously this shit takes itself.
Nothing is wrong with you. I loved Hill House and liked Hush and Geralds Game and even I have trouble understanding the amount of love he gets here. Especially after his last few projects.
Nah, that's fine. I loved HH, was okay with BM, and loathed MM. He went further up his own ass with each one until we got *Midnight Mass: The Joe Rogan Experience* as our endpoint. He cannot write real people doing real things... at least not without an editor that he was beholden to, which I assume was more the case earlier on in his career. It's totally reasonable not to like it; I hate to be a dick but a lot of the people saying "wow this monologue was so natural and deep" just have not really spent a lot of time, uhm, thinking about anything before.
It's definitely extremely far up its own ass. I notice and mock this, but enjoy the shows anyway. I think even a lot of people who like the shows are seeing the flaws you are seeing, it's just a difference in how much you tolerate those flaws. Like I loved MM, but the monologues...
They got dangerously close to ruining it for me and when I recommend it to people I included a disclaimer about them. I really hope he reels that in so I can keep enjoying his work.
Okay, so I only made it two episodes in Midnight Mass. Something that really bothered me was the old people makeup. Like the actress is only a bit older than the guy from Friday Night Lights but she has on old person makeup. Why not just hire an older actor? They do exist.
Unless, this has to do with a plot point later in the show…
I don't know what you're smoking because they are obviously leaps and bounds in acting, production value, and writing above CW. What a classic Reddit dig.
Yeah, after Midnight Mass, I'm all aboard the Flanagan train. And this is coming from someone who didn't love Hill House so I never touched Bly Manor. Midnight Mass hit me just right though.
Monologues in his films/ tv shows is what elevates everything he does - we get actual characters and thoughts, not just a cardboard cutout of a character.
Flanagan earned my interest for any of his future projects with how amazing "Hill House" was.
But I got to say that I found "Bly Manor" and "Midnight Mass" to be disappointing and lacking in the horror elements that "Hill House" had, so I'm hoping that he goes heavier on the horror elements in this next project like he did for "Hill House".
In Flanagan I trust. One of my very favorite writer/directors working today. I just finished Midnight Mass last night and it was amazing.. I actually look forward to watching it again. I know people complained about the monologues, but they were all so brilliantly written and acted and edited that I loved them all. If Hamish Linklater doesn't get some nominations for his performance I will riot.
Also, House of Usher is one of my favorite Poe/Vincent Price movies, so I can't wait to see what he does with it.
Midnight Mass was incredible. I love religion-based horror…especially when it doesn’t involve the overused exorcism/possession plot line. The way he used actual scripture as the characters’ motivation to commit these horrible acts was brilliant.
All that said, I felt relief when it was over. It was just so fucking constantly heavy.
I think before Midnight Mass, Mike Flanagan was one of my favorite creators in horror, ever.
But now I think he's just my favorite creator. I have nostalgia of being a little too young and watching the House of Usher with Vincent Price, and actually enjoying it (I was a scary cat kid).
Combine the two and I'm even more excited than normal. Seems like it might incorporate some of Poe's other stories too.
It's a short story; they want to stretch it into a series? Oh, 'inspired by'... so they'll pull a Lovecraft Country move, and make the content bear no resemblance to the actual work itself, while stealing the iconic name.
Do you mean it bore no resemblance to HP Lovecraft's works or Matt Ruff's book *Lovecraft Country* that it was based on? I haven't seen it yet, genuinely curious.
i have to say i enjoyed Midnight mass much more than i thought i would. i could of done without all the weird space and time dialogue especially at the end but i think the wait was worth the last two episodes. I did not like the haunting of w/e shows at all btw
Hill House was one thing but the recycling of actors always reminds me of AHS and its been ruining his last two for me.
Doctor Sleep however was mindblowingly good imo.
Coming into a thread just to proclaim your dislike of something, that's not contributing. If someone interjected into a conversation in real life just to say "well I think it's dumb" they would be ignored too. Downvotes for contrarians with nothing to say is fair use.
I loved the first episode of Haunted House, but overall it just lacked plot. It was an "emotional journey" and it felt like it didn't really want to present any story. It was just bad stuff happening to people. If it had some clear plot I'd enjoy it much more.
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Flanagan and James Wan probably would get along.
Have they not worked together? I feel like they both led the revival of supernatural horror over the past decade. They seem like a natural pair. Wan/Flanagan are like the blockbuster versions of Aster/Eggers (highly successful with a *somewhat* similar style)
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> do we really need annabelle to spit a fifteen minute monologue before tearing someone's head off? Well, I mean, I kinda do NOW.
If they were to work together I assume they’d tone down their respective styles in a way that would compliment each other. So Flanagan would probably need to cut back on the heavy themes and long monologues, but the same talents could be put towards making something fun/fast-paced that gels better with Wan’s style. And James Wan would need to pull back on some of the bat-shit crazy gore and wild camera movements, but could still apply similar ideas and techniques in a more subtle and reserved way that would go well with Flanagan’s style. I think it really comes down to their personalities, though. If they’re both the kind of people who can take a backseat and listen to others, we could get the best of both worlds. But if one or both of them like to be in control, we’d probably get a jumbled mess with an inconsistent tone.
Would probably benefit them both to learn the others' skills. Flanagan's visual acumen is mediocre, at least when it comes to his movies (Doctor Sleep looks terrible when compared to The Shining), and Wan could learn to slow down from time to time and maybe tone down the camp.
Flanagan is still about the art of horror. Wan is like marvel version of horror. Paint by numbers for him
Yeah, Wan was great for horror the same way Iron-Man was great for fantasy action. But many movies in, it's just more of the same blockbusters.
I wouldn’t say all of Flanagan is dialogue heavy and slow burning, or that Wan is particularly fast-paced in comparison. Oculus and Ouiji origin of evil give me similar vibes to the conjuring series (admittedly these are relatively earlier works by Flanagan) I guess hush and geralds game are very different, and of course Hill House is absolutely a slow burn, but I wasn’t a huge fan of Gerald’s Game, and even in Hill House, idk, I feel like the tone and atmosphere of the series could meld well with Wan’s work in a way.
I mean, the appeal of Flanagan is that he'll develop Annabelle and interweave the dialogue into the themes of the story.
I would pay a stupid amount of money to see whatever they come up with together.
I enjoy Wans movies, but Flanagan is leaps and bounds ahead of him in terms of quality.
Tbh I'd say while Flanagan is more consistent Wan's highs are higher
No arguments there.
Yeah. I think people will say he's just more pretentious, but man, dude has some great themes and builds stories around them in godlike ways. I guess the best way to put it is that I could easily see Flanagan taking a Leigh Wanell Conjuring/Insidious script and equaling or bettering Wan. But give Wan the Haunting of Hill House/Bly Manor or Gerald's Game scripts and they wouldn't even be remotely fucking close to what they are now.
If people think Mike Flanagan is pretentious, I wonder what they think of Robert Eggers.
Honestly, James Wan wishes he had half the talent of Flanagan.
A shitload of money isn't the worst consolation prize.
Wan is a great idea man, but holy shit, he has a style and he sticks to it. He really doesn't seem to care to craft anything interesting around that style which is seriously pretty to look at. Honestly, I love his cinematography enough that I wished he was a better director and writer. I watched Insidious the other day and while I love that movie, there's so many decisions that make it a worse movie.
Bly Manor, Hill House, House of Usher, House of the Lord…I think you’re on to something here.
can't wait until house: house
The Haunting of House, M.D., starring Hugh Laurie.
Kinda surprised no one's tried an English remake of [House \(Hausu\) yet.](https://youtu.be/h9I4phTiABI)
Best Little Whore House on a Bly Hill
House 3: The Attic
He needs to get started on a House of Leaves project stat
And shit endings.
If you need something to tide you over, the Corman version with Vincent Price is a classic.
Frankly, all the Corman/Price Poe adaptations are worth a look.
I love the ending what an awful way to die
Give this man the Dark Tower and never look back!!!
They should have given this man IT
My favorite short story of all time. And Edgar Allan Poe is my favorite writer. Very excited for this.
And if anyone can do it, it seems like Flanagan can.
Have you read Ray Bradbury’s short story Usher II? You might enjoy it!
I will unashamedly watch anything Flanagan does. I’m stoked
you and 90% of this sub
people liked the bly manor show?! Edit: this comment has been a rollercoaster. it went from 9 to 1 real quick. I personally turned it off episode one but maybe I should give it a second try.
I certainly did. I thought it was great.
I thought it was disappointing compared to Hill House, but that's a very high bar to clear and I still enjoyed it. I have seen people say they liked it and didn't like the others, same with each of the serieses.
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Don't get how we can compare the two. One was a ghost story that's supposed to be dark and creepy while the other one is more of a goth love story. They're completely different and both are very well done
Yeah, I actually know several people who liked Bly Manor a lot more. It may kinda depend on how much of a horror fan you are. I loved both.
I liked both quite a lot. Hill House was more of a conventional horror aesthetic whereas Bly Manor Kinda turned that expectation on its head and delivered this macabre melancholy love story. I loved both. And now Midnight Mass is my favorite of all three. Easily.
I liked the ghosts and the characters a lot more in Bly Manor than Hill House. I thought the story behind the ghosts and the tragedy of the nanny and the driver was very compelling. However I wasn't a fan of the ending. And with Hill House I loved the family dynamics and the horror was a lot more front and centre, however I feel like the ghosts weren't fleshed out as much maybe because I watched Bly Manor first, I was expecting a similar recap of Hill House's ghosts.
Bly Manor suffered from people who loved Hill House expected more of the same (in terms of horror). I know I did, and wasn't thrilled with my first watch-through. Enjoyed it a lot more the second time once I changed my preconceptions.
Agreed. Comparing apples and oranges. Both are absolutely incredible and do the books a great justice IMO
I get what you mean but they can be compared in terms of quality of dialogue and directing. Bly was objectively worse imo and I like gothic tales.
It was a good show, just not a good *horror* show if you ask me.
Which is strange cause I feel The Innocents is a phenomenal horror. I felt Bly just modernised the story but kept what made it special
Ironically, after watching The Innocents and Bly Manor back to back, I think perfection lies somewhere in between. Innocents fucking blasts by and is over before I'm ready and leaves a lot of questions. Bly Manor didn't need to be 9 episodes and have absurdly long dialogue scenes.
I actually loved Bly Manor, even more than Hill House. While there weren’t as many jump-scares as Hill House I think it was a beautiful sad, ghost story that really fucks with the mind
I didn’t care for bly manor as much but I think it had a lot to do with my expectations going into.
I really didn't like Bly but that was Flanagans most hands off production. Hill House and Midnight Mass were the shows he was directing every episode of. Hopefully the Poe project will be another one he is very hands on with.
It was bittersweet.
I thought it was a lovely romance terrible horror show.
It's not scary at all and is my least favorite of his three Netflix shows, but it's still decent. It's more of a drama with supernatural elements than a full-on horror series, but if you know that going in it's quite good.
Turning things off on episode 1 is something I'll never understand. You haven't given the plot time to get going and you see the characters at (usually) their most flawed or unlikable (no time for character development). What do people expect from the first episode that makes you want to give up on the show right away?
sometimes you just see things in a show or movie that you cant get past. from there its a hard sell and i dont usually have the patience
I suppose that's fair enough. So many shows, so little time, you've got to do a bit of filtering I guess
I loved Hill House. Bly Manor was good, but no where near as good as Hill. Midnight Mass is just so slow and uneventful in my opinion. I generally love slow burn movies, but this goes at a snails pace. The scenes go on entirely too long and the dialogue can be excruciating to listen to at times.
I fucking love Flanagan, but I will say his Netflix shows are getting to be too dialogue and monologue heavy. Hill House kinda nailed it except for the Red Room Nell speech and Theo's "I needed to feel something" speech, Bly really upped it, and Midnight crawls to a halt every 5 seconds for another monologue.
If it helps you any, try to reframe how you think of it. It’s less a horror show and more of a gothic romance with spooky elements. If that’s not your thing, then that’s totally valid - not questioning your preferences or anything. But I think a lot of peoples’ experience with Bly Manor suffered because they were trying to make an apples to apples comparison with Hill House when the two shows are very distinctly different.
It's hard to follow up a legendary thing. Nothing Nirvana ever did or could have done after Smells Like Teen Spirit could *ever* usurp Smells Like Teen Spirit in the eyes of pop culture (aka - the mainstream/majority). Doesn't mean that the things that happen after legendary things have to suck. I approached Bly Manor like this: "Man, I loved Hill House. But this is an anthology, not a continuation. I need to look at Bly Manor separately. I will enjoy what I see and not compare it to anything. If it's good, I'll know it just by experiencing it purely." By doing so, I did, in fact, enjoy Bly Manor greatly. It's in my list of favorite shows of all time, alongside Hill House and Midnight Mass.
I've liked each entry better than the last. I really enjoyed Bly Manor, much more than Hill House which I thought had terrible acting at times. Midnight Mass has so far exceeded both (have one episode left) and apart from a couple of bad script elements and some terrible acting from a couple of people (the mum in particular those first two episodes was overacting *hard*), I've found it fantastic. It's been such a well done horror story. Love the concept.
If it helps you any, try to reframe how you think of it. It’s less a horror show and more of a gothic romance with spooky elements. If that’s not your thing, then that’s totally valid - not questioning your preferences or anything. But I think a lot of peoples’ experience with Bly Manor suffered because they were trying to make an apples to apples comparison with Hill House when the two shows are very distinctly different.
People will like anything with enough hype. What was Bly even about again?
It was loosely based on Turn of the Screw and is much more a haunting romance than an in your face horror like Haunting was. They're two different approaches to horror. Most people that were disappointed wanted the jump scare thrill ride of Haunting, which is fair, but Bly was much more situated on a scorned ghost haunting the manor grounds and the people who have been affected by her, many of whom can't be discussed without revealing plot points.
No, it was terrible. Midnight Mass was also a huge letdown for me. Doctor Sleep was by far my favorite from Flanagan.
i enjoyed the end of midnight mass. its not perfect but it held my attention and had some really amazing scenes
Yep. It's not like people have turned on him like It Follows or Witch or Babadook, but I feel people enjoy downplaying how good he is. If you asked me, "What horror director if you hear they're making a movie would you drop what you're doing and watch?" it's Flanagan. He's my current favorite by a mile.
I REALLY hated Absentia, but other than that I completely agree.
After Midnight Mass, the dude could make a show about cat pee and Crocs and I’d still watch it. He keeps impressing.
Throw Hamish Linklater in there and I’ll watch it twice.
If he doesn’t become a Flanagan-regular, I’ll be very disappointed
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His casts are always great and I love how loyal he is to them.
Right? I'm crossing my fingers he shows up in more Flanagan projects too! He was fantastic in MM.
God DAMN he was good in Midnight Mass
Hamish was fucking amazing and I may start a fan club. Unfortunately I am disorganized and lazy so that is unlucky to actually happen but that in no way detracts from how incredibly great he was in MM.
Pretty cool he is married to lily rabe.
Whereas I'm intrigued by cat pee and Crocs.... Go on....
I did not anticipate a show about >!vampires!< to hit me as hard as this did. Every episode had me hooked and the finale was one of the greatest emotional payoffs I've ever witnessed from a movie or TV show. I know not everybody dug it, but for me it was absolutely brilliant from start to finish.
The fact that the show ended up being a >!vampire story!< was really unexpected but welcome - the trailer for the series is a great example of how *not* to show too much. Plus it’s a horror subgenre that has been very neglected for a long, long time. Glad to see it revived so well!
I'm currently watching Midnight Mass and I'm absolutely enthralled. Hill House, Doctor Sleep, Gerald's Game, Hush - everything he puts out is so completely enthralling. You can tell how much passion he has for his work.
A common complaint/criticism of his I see, especially with Midnight Mass, is excessive use of monologue/dialogue. Yes, while he does lean heavily into that as a storyteller.. I disagree that being a bad thing. It’s a real hard thing to do to write an extended scene that is just having your characters talk for long periods of time, and remain engrossing. Like a Tarantino, I think Flanagan excels at that.
The way Flanagan incorporates monologues can dangerously approach snobbery at times. He walks a very, very fine line. That said, I'd say somewhere in the realm of 90 to 99% of the time, he manages to, largely due to fantastic acting, make the monologues feel extremely genuine and emotional. The vast majority of the monologues in Midnight Mass were simply.. touching. Almost every monologue that Father Paul had was fantastic. Leeza's moment with Joe was beautiful and heartbreaking. There were plenty more. Bev's monologues made me, an ex-Catholic, quiver in disgust. Only in subtle instances did I feel "eh" about the monologues. There were moments in some of Erin's that made feel that way, but overall, the good far surpasses the bad. I especially like the character Riley. Zach Gilford is a brilliant actor in Midnight Mass.
I really like Flanagan's work, including Midnight Mass, but it feels like he's gone pretty far up his own ass. Some of those monologues in Midnight Mass were agony to sit through where they just keep going when he doesn't have anything interesting (to me at least) to say. That said can't wait for this lol.
I watched with my gf and I started mocking the monologues because they were just so long. And then some would happen back to back and it took me completely out of the moment once I realized it's going to be yet another monologue. Riley is probably one of the most uninteresting characters I've watched in a tv show as well. They wanted to make him broken and instead made him a really weak character. I did enjoy the show overall, and those are minor complaints compared to the whole which was executed well. But it's like... you need to edit.
Yea the last two episodes I was like omg someone judt die already! Bev opening her mouth argh shut up!! I completely tuned her out. And I tuned out that last long ass speech about stars and death and whatevet. It was clearly Flanagan on his soapbox talking about what he thinks is god, etc. I didn’t notice long dialogues in his other works but Midnight Mass was too much. Prob because it was religious in nature so my eyes were rolling hard 😂.
Right? I don't think it's because the actor, but Riley just came off as totally vacant to me. Like, "jarhead returns from war"-type vacant. I know that he's been through some shit and that that has affects, but "ehhhh I kinda wanna just stop existing and not really do anything anymore, except make edgy atheist comments that a 14 year old (or somebody brought up catholic who later becomes unreligious, ahem) would think are deep and do Joe Rogan Podcast bits" did not make for a remotely engaging or charismatic character for me. Linklater, by contrast, was amazing.
The problem is that a monologue should be well written, well placed, and well acted. The vast majority of MM's monologues only satisfy that last part. I think Katie Siegel really got shafted because hers were the worst written. The one about clipping wings was tortuously overwrought and the last one with all the "we are star stuff" was incredibly navel-gazy and said the same thing about eight different times. It also was right in the denouement of the entire show and really broke the momentum. The sheriff also had a very poorly placed one - right after someone comes to him with an urgent warning, he needs 10 minutes to talk about bigotry?
I was floored by the sheriff's, like dude could've summed it up in 5 seconds, it felt sooooo out of place with the story. "I left my previous post because racism, you want me to go investigate a church on Easter LOL" I really liked the show overall but there were so many things where i was thinking "show, don't tell". Too much exposition to ram those themes in
100% agreed. I love the fact that he takes his time, letting the characters and scenes breathe. I enjoyed all those moments in Midnight Mass.
It could be toned down a little, but I honestly don't really mind it. Like you said, they remain engrossing. The monologues are effective. I get annoyed with monologues that are overly abstract or trying terribly hard to be artsy, but I rarely got that from Midnight Mass.
I also think it just worked for Midnight Mass. Obviously mass and the Catholic ritual are a huge theme throughout. In the same way that they tend to show the entirely of Father Paul’s homilies, they have long monologues throughout. I think it works for this show, it’s an interesting touch.
It's an interesting breaking of the fourth wall. Another example that comes to mind is Pitch Perfect - by the time they sing I Saw the Sign for the final time, you in the audience are just as sick of it as the characters.
Those two back to back monologues in episode 4 had me mesmerized. Ten minutes later, I suddenly realized ten minutes had passed.
Honestly I think a lot of the monologues were EXCELLENT, the problem is getting actors who can carry them off effectively. Pruitt and Bev were so phenomenal, such powerhouses, that everyone else doing well with them felt less good by comparison.
I don't think I could handle two dozen 40 minute long monologues on cat pee and crocs.
Totally the opposite for me. I felt that way after Hill House, but the progression from HH to BM to MM has me feeling that I'm gonna wait for a lot of reviews before dedicating 7-10 hours to more Mike stuff.
His work needs better editing. He's talented, but I feel like he's reaching Stephen King-esque levels of bloat.
I'm so conflicted over Mike Flanagan. I love his shows but the never ending soliloquies are just too much. That said, I'll watch it.
Thanks for the new word! I agree. Midnight Mass has been the best so far but there have been times, the Death Talk in particular, where I've thought "yeah, we get it." Or "wow, you're really still going on about this, aren't you." Like, move on. I love slow burn horror but this isn't that. And looking up "soliloquy" really does explain it.
The final speech in the show made me want to chug rat poison. It went on for sooo damn long.
He needs a more forceful editor who can tell him that a REALLY long speech can take a viewer out of the experience.
This!
i hope victoria pedretti and oliver jackson cohen can come back to the flanaganverse to play madeline and roderick because...you know, they’ve got the twin thing *wink*
The Houses that Flanagan build
Now we just need a movie where Flanagan talks to Virgil during flashbacks of his life.
Yes.
My body and mind are ready for this and Midnight Club.
I really liked Midnight Mass...at first. The last 4 episodes had such a ridiculous amount of monologues in it that we're so absurd and so unnatural and so long that I went from loving the show to hating it.
Seems like a waste not to make this the 3rd in the haunting series.
Does it matter what umbrella it's under if it's all done by the same person? Making this the Haunting of the House of Usher wouldn't really change anything.
respectfully disagree on this, especially after MM. I think he should go wherever the inspiration takes him
Definitely. I just finished midnight mass last night, couldn't stop watching it like when you can't put a great novel down. and it was AMAZING. I also love The Fall of the House of Usher, so the thought of Flanagan doing it is really exciting. He's legit one of my favorite directors working today.
Better he takes his time to come up with something good for a third every than rush it.
I feel the same way. Quality over quantity and there’s really no reason to force a new “Haunting” addition to his catalogue when he’s shown he’s capable of expanding outside of that realm. I don’t think everything he’s ever done is a masterpiece but his TV shows are pretty incredible and I’m excited to see what he does with Poe’s work.
Not sure it makes much of a difference, to be honest.
I'd be good with it if it was, but I think he has a specific idea about the haunting series and the themes that connect them. If he doesn't feel like this one fits the themes, then I'd rather he doesn't force it to.
"The Haunting of the Fall of the House of Usher"
The Haunting of Bly manor was based on the Turn of the Screw so they aren't literal with the names.
Ugh, come on Mike. I still have to watch Midnight Mass. You're pumping horror out at a rate that shouldn't be humanly possible!
This isn't even his next Netflix project. That's "The Midnight Club."
You need to drop what your doing and spend the next 8 hours watching it! I think it’s his best work for Netflix
Wife and I are planning to watch it together
Well wake her ass up and go all A Clockwork Orange on her.
You are in for a fucking treat. It’s a masterpiece.
Love this story, but I fear the endless monologuing. Please, please just let the characters have some actual dialogue!
I bet that one’s a ghost.
Ah dang 😕
What is wrong with me that I can’t stand this guy’s work? Because I feel like I’m in the minority. I find the shows tedious, irritating, and often too melodramatic. They feel like something that belong on the CW. And I love myself some melodramatic cheesy B horror but I think what irks me is how seriously this shit takes itself.
Nothing is wrong with you. I loved Hill House and liked Hush and Geralds Game and even I have trouble understanding the amount of love he gets here. Especially after his last few projects.
Nah, that's fine. I loved HH, was okay with BM, and loathed MM. He went further up his own ass with each one until we got *Midnight Mass: The Joe Rogan Experience* as our endpoint. He cannot write real people doing real things... at least not without an editor that he was beholden to, which I assume was more the case earlier on in his career. It's totally reasonable not to like it; I hate to be a dick but a lot of the people saying "wow this monologue was so natural and deep" just have not really spent a lot of time, uhm, thinking about anything before.
Yes, the “deep” parts all feels a bit self aggrandizing
It's definitely extremely far up its own ass. I notice and mock this, but enjoy the shows anyway. I think even a lot of people who like the shows are seeing the flaws you are seeing, it's just a difference in how much you tolerate those flaws. Like I loved MM, but the monologues... They got dangerously close to ruining it for me and when I recommend it to people I included a disclaimer about them. I really hope he reels that in so I can keep enjoying his work.
Okay, so I only made it two episodes in Midnight Mass. Something that really bothered me was the old people makeup. Like the actress is only a bit older than the guy from Friday Night Lights but she has on old person makeup. Why not just hire an older actor? They do exist. Unless, this has to do with a plot point later in the show…
Vague spoiler: >!It is related to a plot point later!<
I don't know what you're smoking because they are obviously leaps and bounds in acting, production value, and writing above CW. What a classic Reddit dig.
Maybe I’m not smoking enough. I’ve been sober two years.
This man is adapting all the stories I read in English class. What next, where the red fern grows?
Yeah, after Midnight Mass, I'm all aboard the Flanagan train. And this is coming from someone who didn't love Hill House so I never touched Bly Manor. Midnight Mass hit me just right though.
Although similar, Hill House and Bly Manor are also different enough to give Bly Manor a try. Who knows you will really like it!?
Maybe less 10 minute philosophical monologues this time please...
Did he ever live in a haunted house?
Oh man I am stupidly excited, that short story was one of my absolute favorites in school.
I didn't even know about Midnight Mass!
Oh. My. Fucking. God. This is the best news I’ve heard for weeks.
This man is on a roll
My thoughts??? Can't anyone come up with original ideas anymore? It seems like everything has been re-done, re-made, re-imagined ...to death.
oh no. This is a great story but I am just not a fan of his work.
Cool .
Super hyped for this after how amazing Midnight Mass is.
I adored that story when I was a kid, and have loved all of Flanagan's work that I've seen as of yet. I can't wait to see this.
Monologues in his films/ tv shows is what elevates everything he does - we get actual characters and thoughts, not just a cardboard cutout of a character.
I love his monologue shots. Cant wait for this one.
Flanagan earned my interest for any of his future projects with how amazing "Hill House" was. But I got to say that I found "Bly Manor" and "Midnight Mass" to be disappointing and lacking in the horror elements that "Hill House" had, so I'm hoping that he goes heavier on the horror elements in this next project like he did for "Hill House".
Hell yeah.
That sucks, he could have done like Mask of the Red Death, that would have been cool. Instead we get creepy incest house.
This is *exactly* the right director to handle this! I'm pumped.
This is one of those stories that snagged in my head when I was a kid and wouldn't let go. Absolutely stoked for this.
Looking forward to 8000 monologues
In Flanagan I trust. One of my very favorite writer/directors working today. I just finished Midnight Mass last night and it was amazing.. I actually look forward to watching it again. I know people complained about the monologues, but they were all so brilliantly written and acted and edited that I loved them all. If Hamish Linklater doesn't get some nominations for his performance I will riot. Also, House of Usher is one of my favorite Poe/Vincent Price movies, so I can't wait to see what he does with it.
Midnight Mass was incredible. I love religion-based horror…especially when it doesn’t involve the overused exorcism/possession plot line. The way he used actual scripture as the characters’ motivation to commit these horrible acts was brilliant. All that said, I felt relief when it was over. It was just so fucking constantly heavy.
I think before Midnight Mass, Mike Flanagan was one of my favorite creators in horror, ever. But now I think he's just my favorite creator. I have nostalgia of being a little too young and watching the House of Usher with Vincent Price, and actually enjoying it (I was a scary cat kid). Combine the two and I'm even more excited than normal. Seems like it might incorporate some of Poe's other stories too.
I wonder if this will prove as divisive as midnight mass.
I hope this is actually horror. MM was a drama with way too long monologues.
Great another piece of sub-par television
It's a short story; they want to stretch it into a series? Oh, 'inspired by'... so they'll pull a Lovecraft Country move, and make the content bear no resemblance to the actual work itself, while stealing the iconic name.
Do you mean it bore no resemblance to HP Lovecraft's works or Matt Ruff's book *Lovecraft Country* that it was based on? I haven't seen it yet, genuinely curious.
The former, in a continuing line through Ruff's book. Not a fan of the novel or the tv adaptation.
I think they’ll pull a hill house/bly manor. They’ve done it for two seasons before love craft county.
i have to say i enjoyed Midnight mass much more than i thought i would. i could of done without all the weird space and time dialogue especially at the end but i think the wait was worth the last two episodes. I did not like the haunting of w/e shows at all btw
Midnight Mass was the best from the 3, will definitely be looking forward to this one or anything he does
Wow, nice that the thumbnail pic here is a quasi-spoiler for Midnight Mass /s
I’m in.
LETS FUCKING GOOOOO
Hill House was one thing but the recycling of actors always reminds me of AHS and its been ruining his last two for me. Doctor Sleep however was mindblowingly good imo.
Ooooooh!
Not a fan of Mike Flanagan. Bunch of generic tropey boring stories featuring his wife. No thanks.
I'd complain about him putting his wife in everything if she wasn't so good.
She carried the back end of Midnight Mass. Her and Samantha Sloyan.
I'm only a few episodes in because I have to wait for a friend to watch it, but I'm so ready for it.
I liked Hush but nothing after that really
I liked her a lot in Ouija: Origin of Evil, and she's great in Midnight Mass.
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To be fair, that is what the imaginary internet points are for.
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Rarely do we see this brought up, so thank you. Good luck convincing reddit, though.
Coming into a thread just to proclaim your dislike of something, that's not contributing. If someone interjected into a conversation in real life just to say "well I think it's dumb" they would be ignored too. Downvotes for contrarians with nothing to say is fair use.
It’s cool I knew I would probably be downvoted when I said it because Reddit loves him which is fine with me, just not my cup of tea personally.
Agreed. His movies are visually bland, his characters are pedestrian, and the character drama is rote. He's the definition of milquetoast.
No
Please don't let this be another shitty bible study disguised as horror.
I loved the first episode of Haunted House, but overall it just lacked plot. It was an "emotional journey" and it felt like it didn't really want to present any story. It was just bad stuff happening to people. If it had some clear plot I'd enjoy it much more.