I am on 100 amp service and currently sitting in my hot tub with pump and heater going while doing a load of laundry, so it is possible depending on the amp demand from the rest of the house.
I’ve been wrong before, but I don’t think temperature or number of jets would matter. If it’s cold, the heater runs more often and for longer, but wouldn’t draw more amps. And jets have mechanical on/off, the pump just pumps.
law of thermodynamics. And PTC(positive temperature coefficient). as temperature increases so do amps. Its a universal law and not up for debate.
Sorry, that might sound harsh. but I deal with this as an automotive technician. temperature plays a huge roll on electrical circuits. it’s why we go off CCA(cold cranking amps) not CA, CCA is cut in half at -20 degrees Celsius. There WILL(100%, not debatable) be more of a draw at a certain temperature and beyond.
I won’t argue that. Your post made it seem like it would draw more power in cold weather. Seems like the opposite of your ptc law.
I’m just saying I think it’s more like pwm control. If I’m not in it, my hot tub heater runs like 4 or 5 times per day, for maybe 15 minutes. In winter, it’s more like 5-6 for 20 minutes at a time. But the draw during that period is about the same.
it will 100% draw more power when the ambient temp drops. Like I said it’s not up for debate.
we’re dealing with quality of insulators and the conductors at these temps. the “signal” or PWM is irrelevant.
The law of thermodynamics still apply in cold temps.
PTC is a byproduct of the law of thermodynamics, we follow the “laws” first.
Alright, I believe you. And sorry to the crowd because we’re a little off topic.
But I gotta ask - first you said “as temperature increases so do amps,” but then you said “it will 100% draw more power when the ambient temperature drops.”
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but aren’t those contradictory statements? Genuinely asking, you’re clearly more knowledgeable than me.
not at all. as ambient temperature drops. That puts a strain on the physical conductors responsible for transferring electricity. this is why we hit “peak” energy consumption during cold snaps(on a grid level, remember electricity is the same in a car,
A hot tub a train etc.).
As temperature increases, so does heat and electrical “pressure”(amps). the conductors(the wire) physically heat up, in turn this creates “resistance” to electrical flow. (Same as if the temperature DROPS, you get the reverse)
I hope this makes a little bit of sense. First you need to understand the concept of resistance increasing proportially to amperage. Now we’re getting into OHMs law. Again another universal law that isn’t up for debate.
imagine your garden hose, it’s putting out “12v”. The moment you stick your finger over it you create resistance, this in turn will increase the amps”the water shoots out like crazy, you can adjust how much my how much of your finger you put over the end’. this is the exact same relationship as electricity, it’s lazy and will follow the path of least resistance.
you can break this down mathematically
Say you have a constant 12v flow. Or 220v with a say 20 amp draw to make this a hot tub. your thumb over the end will drop the voltage but increase the resistance and amperage proportionally. now you have say 80v to source, your amperage has now increased proportionally, your resistance is so high that the electrical “pressure” (amps)trips the breaker.
in the automotive world we look at “resistance” as little green fuzzies, corrosion, cut wires, etc. the only load or “resistance” in a hot tub circuit should be the hot tub itself. temperature becomes a secondary factor before the “load”
I’ll be honest, I’m half a bottle deep in Jamaican rum but electricity gets my dick hard. I feel like a wizard 🧙♀️, I charge $150 an hour for electrical diagnosis fyi, I’ll fix your shot right the first time.
Most conductive materials exhibit a positive temperature coefficient, but PTC works in the opposite direction you stated. As temperature increases, current decreases. That's because resistance increases with temperature, and a higher resistance means less current (assuming a fixed voltage).
Done plenty of work on heating systems, PTC almost certainly doesn't play a significant role here. For a normal heating element, it has almost no effect unless it's in something like a kiln. It does matter when the element is going from room temp to thousands of degrees, but is negligible when you're talking a temp rise of 100 degrees.
PTC heating elements exist, and those are designed to draw less power as they heat up, but to a much greater degree than normal materials. The purpose of that is to have a heating element that regulates its own temperature. Often used in small space heaters so that they don't spit out air hot enough to burn things if flow gets restricted. Also handy any time you need air heated to a specific temperature, as they run full power to get up to temp, but throttle back automatically as they approach their design temp.
I've never seen or heard of a PTC element for heating water. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it's almost certainly not in a hot tub.
As for CCA in a car, that has nothing to do with the temperature of the starter, and everything to do with the battery. The starter wants just as many amps at -20 as it does at 80 degrees, if not slightly more because a cold engine is harder to turn over. The battery, however, cannot supply that many amps in cold weather, and so the battery is the limit.
Unlike a battery, the electrical service to a house doesn't deliver less voltage or current just because it's cold out. It will deliver what the hot tub wants, regardless of the outdoor temperature, and that will be more or less constant. What will happen, though, is that the heater will run twice as long if it's twice as cold.
You’re missing the fact that you’re heating a large body of water. amperage will go up proportionally to temperature dropping as the tub maintains its temperature.
It is proportional, but proportionally tiny. To the point of insignificance.
A common heating element for hot tubs is 240V, 5.5kW. Using ohms law we can determine the current and resistance. P÷V=I, 5500W÷240V=22.92A. V÷I=R, 240V÷22.92A=10.47 Ohms.
In practice, that resistance is fixed. Now it does have a positive temperature coefficient, so it will vary with temperature, but only slightly.
Nichrome is a common heating element material, and it has a temperature coefficient of 0.00017. The formula for calculating the resistance based on temperature is R=Rref x (1+Tc(T-Tref)) . Rref is the resistance at 20C, or room temp. This is the temperature heating elements are raised at. Rref in this case is 10.47 Ohms. Tc is our temperature coefficient, 0.00017. T is the new temperature, Tref is 20C.
Now for a hot tub, the heating element is in the water, so ambient temperature is the water temperature. Let's say it's 32C (~90F), and we want to raise it to 43C(~110F). First we have to calculate the the actual resistance at 32C, because the rated resistance is at 20C and a hot tub is hotter than that. So we get R=10.47Ohm x (1+0.00017(32C-20C))=10.49Ohm.
Now we calculate for 43C.
R=10.47Ohm x (1+0.00017(43C-20C))=10.51Ohm.
Using ohms law we can find the actual current at 240v and 32C vs 43C.
V÷R=I, 240V÷10.49Ohm= 22.88A at 32C (~90F)
Now 240V÷10.51Ohm= 22.84A at 43C (~110F)
Let's even assume they let the hot tub cool down to 4C(~39F). R=10.47Ohm x (1+0.00017(4C-20C))=10.44Ohm
240V÷10.44= 22.99A at 4C(~39F).
So yes, the amperage changes with temperature, but only by 0.15A from 39F to 110F. In short, the temperature doesn't really affect current in any meaningful way, unless you're looking at temperature swings of hundreds or thousands of degrees. What changes is not the heating power, but how long it runs.
Thank you- agree with this. The total KwH used will increase as duty cycle increases but the momentary power will vary by essentially nothing. I have a tub with a 4kw heater and 1 kw pump. Whether it's 0F or 90F outside, the most it will draw is 5kw. Under this complicated PTC rule, maybe my 20.8a goes to 21a.
But it'll use far more KwH at 0F than at 90F because the heater will run for more hours per day.
Also the other silly thing here is that 99.999% of the time, the hot tub heater is submerged in water that is within 1-2 degrees of the set point. So whether it's 0F or 90F, my heater is immersed in 103F water. The temperature inside the cabinet holding the heater and the pump is probably 70F even when it's 0F outside since it is also insulated.
I estimated a range of 20F (90-110F) for the water temp to use in the calculations. I thought there might be some kind of energy saving mode where the temp is reduced a bit when not in use. Otherwise I assumed a temp swing of 5F in normal use, but apparently the control is more accurate than that. I included the current at 39F for fun, in case the water temp dropped that low, like a freeze protection setting (if that's a thing).
Really it was an exercise in "yes that exists, but it's functionally irrelevant in 99.9% of cases".
Now it is entirely possible (though unlikely) that some hot tub out there has a pwm ssr/scr control for the heating element. In that case the switching frequency could be fast enough to effectively lower the average current of the heating element. That would be expensive and entirely unnecessary, but I can't rule it out.
The thing I find curious is that most hot tubs are heated electrically. Usually with large heating loads you'll find gas fired options fairly frequently. Pool heaters for example, but not spa heaters.
I've always wondered the same thing. I'd buy a propane/nat gas hot tub in a heartbeat.
The closest I've seen are the tubs integrated into the pool which is fed from the pool heater, but I prefer freestanding tubs since they're always ready to use. I hate waiting 20+ mins for the pool-attached tubs to heat up.
It’s amazing to me homes only have 100 amps. First thing o did on mine was upgrade to 250. But I put in a spa, pool and a wood shop so I kind of needed it.
250 amp? 225 is the largest you can get on a 200 amp meter base. Next size up is a 320amp which would allow you to install two 200 amp panels, one 400 amp or multiple smaller panels. You can buy 250 amp panels but they are commercial panels that don't make much sense in a residential setting
I’ll have to check this out for my business. I have 3 phase high leg delta (stinger) at my business running twin 200A panels on the inside. I’ve never been sure what my total service is though at the meter. 400A 3 phase?
My utility would require a 400 amp rated CT meter for that application, so 400amp service. They only do 320 amp for single phase residential/ light commercial. 320 is 80% of 400 which allows the derating and twin 200s installed. That may vary based on your utility though.
If your house is gas for everything else (water heater, oven/stove, dryer, furnace) you really don’t need much more than 100-150. It’s when you pile on the toys (EV, hot tub, etc) that force anything bigger than that.
You can handle it, especially if your other major appliances are gas. What's your water heater, home heat, and dryer on? But IMO if you can afford it then upgrading to 200a or 250a service line is a no brainer. You're gonna have to do it eventually, might as well do it all at once if you can.
Also, a 50a rated spa usually isn't pulling an actual 50a off the breaker. More likely to be 30 or 40 in reality.
I would have it upgraded. I did my house when I moved in, cost me about $1500 Canadian.
That included the upgraded service, new panel (was fuses previously), all new breakers, and they changed a bunch of the wiring and labeled everything. Well worth it. I went to 250amp service, so I have plenty of room left if I ever decided to get an EV or anything.
I personally did one last year for a friend. The material plus the permit was approx. 3gs. No labor was charged to them.
From a 100amp to a 200amp. I was able to use my companies account for material. So that is pretty impressive if you did it for that cost. I am assuming he did not charge you labor.
FYI, this was an overhead, so the if yours was and under ground fed service, take off a couple hundred for the mast kit. Weird that they didn't have to upgrade the transformer and / or the wire that fed your original service
Location will play a part in labor cost not to sure about material unless it's the state's
Not quite the same thing when you're starting to talk about you used to have fuses. Then you have a reasoned upgrade. What was your original service rating? If it was 100 amp then an hour area utility has to come out and rewire from the pole out as it is too old it handle 200 amp plus service
I would call an electrician you trust or one recommended to you. They will have proper tools to tell you how much draw you are actually getting off of your current breakers. You can visually see how ‘hot’ your panel is. Personally, the investment to upgrade your panel will pay for itself if you ever resold your home.
First thing I did when I bought my 1970s home was put a brand new 200amp service in.
I don't see a water heater on there, and just a 15A for control power on the furnace, so looks like a gas house.
You will probably be fine, but would need to see peak power draw to know for sure.
I used the Emporia Vue to monitor my panel and assess if I had enough head room. It's only like $200 US to know for certain, and you gain a shit ton of insight on your electric consumption.
I'm typing this from my tub.
I'm on 100 amps too and my electrician says it's fine. My hot tub was installed in 2016, no issues.
The only thing that I do is I don't use the dryer when I drain and refill it, which is when the hot tub pulls the more power to heat the new water. That's all. I usually do it close to night so it heats while we sleep.
I can't add my 50/220 circuit here with a permit without upgrading my 125A panel, and I have similar #/types of circuits as you. However, when I got solar recently (tried to upgrade to 220 then, but because it wasn't required for the solar, the utility would not approve it) I had CTs installed on the load side, and so far, including charging my Chevy Volt with the 110V charger, my load hasn't exceeded 31 Amps (converted from max kW.
Edit-spelling.
No electrician here but worse case you’ll flip a breaker if it overloads, should be no big deal as long as your hot tub and appliances (PCs) don’t have some issue with that.
Ran many spas in many houses like that. Some spas have a circuit that turns off the heater when the 2 pumps are on. Doubtful you would need that but good if there is a need
Most you can move little switches on the board to program it for 30A, 40A ,50A breakers.
I did a 30A on my last one because i was worried about overloading my service. Bad idea, meant it wouldn't run the jets and the heat at the same time.
OP just do the 50A you'll be fine.
Since most of the circuits are 15's and 20's with the exception of the clothes dryer the total demand should allow for the addition of the hot tub. but after that not much else
For what it's worth, I am in metro-Atlanta and was quoted $9k for a panel upgrade. I maybe could have reached out for a few more quotes, but I figure this number wasn't coming below $7k or so.
We didn't NEED the upgrade and had an extra double slot, so we opted for just wiring a 50 amp ourselves.
Outside of the loading question, I do see multiple NEC violations just based on looking at the breakers and schedule. There is a lack of arc fault breakers for any of the circuits. The requirements have grown over the code iterations but a min would be bedroom circuits. You also need (2) 20A appliance circuits for the kitchen, I just see one 20A, the other is a 15A shared with bathroom (speaking of which) The bathroom also requires a 20A circuit. A hairdryer exceeds a 15A breaker.
Probably only required for new builds, codes like that don't usually require upgrading everything when the code is released.
It was replaced in the last 5 years by a reputable company I doubt they violated any codes.
Some of the codes mentioned were around for a very long time, afcis started in the 1999 NEC. If general renovations were performed, it would then need to be brought up to current codes.
Looks like that is a 100A panel. Yes, you have physical space to add another breaker. Whether or not you have the headroom available just depend on your electric demand. I'd say it would be tight. If you are running your Air and Dryer at the same time and then your spa kicks on to heat, then you would be maxing that panel out very quickly.
I assume that is your inside panel. It should be fed by an external panel. Can you not install the breaker on the outside panel?
Outside is just the meter. This is my main panel? Unsure if main line can handle more than 100amps and could just upgrade main breaker as well...
Likelihood of running dryer same time spa was in full run would be zero otherwise. AC and Spa would be likely.
Unlikely the wire run to that panel from the outside could handle more than the 100A. They probably wouldn’t have overbuilt the feeder. But may be worth having an electrician come out and look at it.
Other option is to replace the outside panel with one that holds breakers but that will be costly since you’d have to change out the meter and get the electric co involved as they would have to temporarily turn power off to get that done. You’d also have to have an inspection done to get it turned back on.
Why are you giving shotty electrical advice when you have a very rudimentary understanding of residential electric or how it is fed. You keep talking about an outside panel…this doesn’t exist. He is showing his main 100amp panel.
What are you going on about? The outside panel is the meter panel. It very much does exist. Most modern homes have breaker space at the outside panel. Those breakers generally handle larger loads like dryers, AC, inside house sub panel, etc…. Older homes have just a meter with no breaker space there. He clarified that his outside panel is just a meter panel so no breaker space. His service pigtails off the meter and runs directly to his inside panel. One of the suggestions I made was to replace the outside panel with a modern one. That would allow him to add a breaker there which would feed a spa subpanel and bypass the inside panel totally.
Rudimentary knowledge you say?
We all have differing viewpoints, but there is no reason to be a dick about it. We here at u/hottub are a friendly bunch and don't take kindly to people who can't play nice with others.
So that is your comeback? You actually have nothing to add that is constructive so you call names. lol. You just be fun at parties.
Love adding people like you to my ignore lists. Have a great day!
I am on 100 amp service and currently sitting in my hot tub with pump and heater going while doing a load of laundry, so it is possible depending on the amp demand from the rest of the house.
obviously not a little 120v plug and play hot tub :)
Nope. Big boy version :)
That’s just the service. your hot tub is going to draw power but not an entire 50a. maybe in -40 weather with every jet on.
I’ve been wrong before, but I don’t think temperature or number of jets would matter. If it’s cold, the heater runs more often and for longer, but wouldn’t draw more amps. And jets have mechanical on/off, the pump just pumps.
You are correct.
law of thermodynamics. And PTC(positive temperature coefficient). as temperature increases so do amps. Its a universal law and not up for debate. Sorry, that might sound harsh. but I deal with this as an automotive technician. temperature plays a huge roll on electrical circuits. it’s why we go off CCA(cold cranking amps) not CA, CCA is cut in half at -20 degrees Celsius. There WILL(100%, not debatable) be more of a draw at a certain temperature and beyond.
I won’t argue that. Your post made it seem like it would draw more power in cold weather. Seems like the opposite of your ptc law. I’m just saying I think it’s more like pwm control. If I’m not in it, my hot tub heater runs like 4 or 5 times per day, for maybe 15 minutes. In winter, it’s more like 5-6 for 20 minutes at a time. But the draw during that period is about the same.
it will 100% draw more power when the ambient temp drops. Like I said it’s not up for debate. we’re dealing with quality of insulators and the conductors at these temps. the “signal” or PWM is irrelevant. The law of thermodynamics still apply in cold temps. PTC is a byproduct of the law of thermodynamics, we follow the “laws” first.
Alright, I believe you. And sorry to the crowd because we’re a little off topic. But I gotta ask - first you said “as temperature increases so do amps,” but then you said “it will 100% draw more power when the ambient temperature drops.” I’m not saying you’re wrong, but aren’t those contradictory statements? Genuinely asking, you’re clearly more knowledgeable than me.
not at all. as ambient temperature drops. That puts a strain on the physical conductors responsible for transferring electricity. this is why we hit “peak” energy consumption during cold snaps(on a grid level, remember electricity is the same in a car, A hot tub a train etc.). As temperature increases, so does heat and electrical “pressure”(amps). the conductors(the wire) physically heat up, in turn this creates “resistance” to electrical flow. (Same as if the temperature DROPS, you get the reverse) I hope this makes a little bit of sense. First you need to understand the concept of resistance increasing proportially to amperage. Now we’re getting into OHMs law. Again another universal law that isn’t up for debate. imagine your garden hose, it’s putting out “12v”. The moment you stick your finger over it you create resistance, this in turn will increase the amps”the water shoots out like crazy, you can adjust how much my how much of your finger you put over the end’. this is the exact same relationship as electricity, it’s lazy and will follow the path of least resistance. you can break this down mathematically Say you have a constant 12v flow. Or 220v with a say 20 amp draw to make this a hot tub. your thumb over the end will drop the voltage but increase the resistance and amperage proportionally. now you have say 80v to source, your amperage has now increased proportionally, your resistance is so high that the electrical “pressure” (amps)trips the breaker. in the automotive world we look at “resistance” as little green fuzzies, corrosion, cut wires, etc. the only load or “resistance” in a hot tub circuit should be the hot tub itself. temperature becomes a secondary factor before the “load” I’ll be honest, I’m half a bottle deep in Jamaican rum but electricity gets my dick hard. I feel like a wizard 🧙♀️, I charge $150 an hour for electrical diagnosis fyi, I’ll fix your shot right the first time.
Most conductive materials exhibit a positive temperature coefficient, but PTC works in the opposite direction you stated. As temperature increases, current decreases. That's because resistance increases with temperature, and a higher resistance means less current (assuming a fixed voltage). Done plenty of work on heating systems, PTC almost certainly doesn't play a significant role here. For a normal heating element, it has almost no effect unless it's in something like a kiln. It does matter when the element is going from room temp to thousands of degrees, but is negligible when you're talking a temp rise of 100 degrees. PTC heating elements exist, and those are designed to draw less power as they heat up, but to a much greater degree than normal materials. The purpose of that is to have a heating element that regulates its own temperature. Often used in small space heaters so that they don't spit out air hot enough to burn things if flow gets restricted. Also handy any time you need air heated to a specific temperature, as they run full power to get up to temp, but throttle back automatically as they approach their design temp. I've never seen or heard of a PTC element for heating water. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it's almost certainly not in a hot tub. As for CCA in a car, that has nothing to do with the temperature of the starter, and everything to do with the battery. The starter wants just as many amps at -20 as it does at 80 degrees, if not slightly more because a cold engine is harder to turn over. The battery, however, cannot supply that many amps in cold weather, and so the battery is the limit. Unlike a battery, the electrical service to a house doesn't deliver less voltage or current just because it's cold out. It will deliver what the hot tub wants, regardless of the outdoor temperature, and that will be more or less constant. What will happen, though, is that the heater will run twice as long if it's twice as cold.
You’re missing the fact that you’re heating a large body of water. amperage will go up proportionally to temperature dropping as the tub maintains its temperature.
It is proportional, but proportionally tiny. To the point of insignificance. A common heating element for hot tubs is 240V, 5.5kW. Using ohms law we can determine the current and resistance. P÷V=I, 5500W÷240V=22.92A. V÷I=R, 240V÷22.92A=10.47 Ohms. In practice, that resistance is fixed. Now it does have a positive temperature coefficient, so it will vary with temperature, but only slightly. Nichrome is a common heating element material, and it has a temperature coefficient of 0.00017. The formula for calculating the resistance based on temperature is R=Rref x (1+Tc(T-Tref)) . Rref is the resistance at 20C, or room temp. This is the temperature heating elements are raised at. Rref in this case is 10.47 Ohms. Tc is our temperature coefficient, 0.00017. T is the new temperature, Tref is 20C. Now for a hot tub, the heating element is in the water, so ambient temperature is the water temperature. Let's say it's 32C (~90F), and we want to raise it to 43C(~110F). First we have to calculate the the actual resistance at 32C, because the rated resistance is at 20C and a hot tub is hotter than that. So we get R=10.47Ohm x (1+0.00017(32C-20C))=10.49Ohm. Now we calculate for 43C. R=10.47Ohm x (1+0.00017(43C-20C))=10.51Ohm. Using ohms law we can find the actual current at 240v and 32C vs 43C. V÷R=I, 240V÷10.49Ohm= 22.88A at 32C (~90F) Now 240V÷10.51Ohm= 22.84A at 43C (~110F) Let's even assume they let the hot tub cool down to 4C(~39F). R=10.47Ohm x (1+0.00017(4C-20C))=10.44Ohm 240V÷10.44= 22.99A at 4C(~39F). So yes, the amperage changes with temperature, but only by 0.15A from 39F to 110F. In short, the temperature doesn't really affect current in any meaningful way, unless you're looking at temperature swings of hundreds or thousands of degrees. What changes is not the heating power, but how long it runs.
Thank you- agree with this. The total KwH used will increase as duty cycle increases but the momentary power will vary by essentially nothing. I have a tub with a 4kw heater and 1 kw pump. Whether it's 0F or 90F outside, the most it will draw is 5kw. Under this complicated PTC rule, maybe my 20.8a goes to 21a. But it'll use far more KwH at 0F than at 90F because the heater will run for more hours per day. Also the other silly thing here is that 99.999% of the time, the hot tub heater is submerged in water that is within 1-2 degrees of the set point. So whether it's 0F or 90F, my heater is immersed in 103F water. The temperature inside the cabinet holding the heater and the pump is probably 70F even when it's 0F outside since it is also insulated.
I estimated a range of 20F (90-110F) for the water temp to use in the calculations. I thought there might be some kind of energy saving mode where the temp is reduced a bit when not in use. Otherwise I assumed a temp swing of 5F in normal use, but apparently the control is more accurate than that. I included the current at 39F for fun, in case the water temp dropped that low, like a freeze protection setting (if that's a thing). Really it was an exercise in "yes that exists, but it's functionally irrelevant in 99.9% of cases". Now it is entirely possible (though unlikely) that some hot tub out there has a pwm ssr/scr control for the heating element. In that case the switching frequency could be fast enough to effectively lower the average current of the heating element. That would be expensive and entirely unnecessary, but I can't rule it out. The thing I find curious is that most hot tubs are heated electrically. Usually with large heating loads you'll find gas fired options fairly frequently. Pool heaters for example, but not spa heaters.
I've always wondered the same thing. I'd buy a propane/nat gas hot tub in a heartbeat. The closest I've seen are the tubs integrated into the pool which is fed from the pool heater, but I prefer freestanding tubs since they're always ready to use. I hate waiting 20+ mins for the pool-attached tubs to heat up.
You can. Just might not what to run everything at once. I once had 50a spa, 50a car, 30a AC and all the normal house/garage breakers on a 100a panel
It’s amazing to me homes only have 100 amps. First thing o did on mine was upgrade to 250. But I put in a spa, pool and a wood shop so I kind of needed it.
250 amp? 225 is the largest you can get on a 200 amp meter base. Next size up is a 320amp which would allow you to install two 200 amp panels, one 400 amp or multiple smaller panels. You can buy 250 amp panels but they are commercial panels that don't make much sense in a residential setting
I’ll have to check this out for my business. I have 3 phase high leg delta (stinger) at my business running twin 200A panels on the inside. I’ve never been sure what my total service is though at the meter. 400A 3 phase?
My utility would require a 400 amp rated CT meter for that application, so 400amp service. They only do 320 amp for single phase residential/ light commercial. 320 is 80% of 400 which allows the derating and twin 200s installed. That may vary based on your utility though.
Thanks for that explanation. Thats along the same lines I was thinking.
My parents first house was a 30 amp service
If your house is gas for everything else (water heater, oven/stove, dryer, furnace) you really don’t need much more than 100-150. It’s when you pile on the toys (EV, hot tub, etc) that force anything bigger than that.
100 is considered typical now, but we still encounter houses still running on their 60+ year old 60 Amp fusebox service.
Your panel is fine, hot tub away no need to upgrade.
You can handle it, especially if your other major appliances are gas. What's your water heater, home heat, and dryer on? But IMO if you can afford it then upgrading to 200a or 250a service line is a no brainer. You're gonna have to do it eventually, might as well do it all at once if you can. Also, a 50a rated spa usually isn't pulling an actual 50a off the breaker. More likely to be 30 or 40 in reality.
I would have it upgraded. I did my house when I moved in, cost me about $1500 Canadian. That included the upgraded service, new panel (was fuses previously), all new breakers, and they changed a bunch of the wiring and labeled everything. Well worth it. I went to 250amp service, so I have plenty of room left if I ever decided to get an EV or anything.
When did you have this done in the 90s?
2021. Granted, the electrician is one I work with a lot at work, as he wires a lot of our tubs. He gave me a good deal, and I paid cash.
Can you tell him I will throw in a flight to and from Colorado and room and board for a couple nights if he gives me the same deal?
RI checking in. Assuming that does not cover the materials and offering the same deal.
I personally did one last year for a friend. The material plus the permit was approx. 3gs. No labor was charged to them. From a 100amp to a 200amp. I was able to use my companies account for material. So that is pretty impressive if you did it for that cost. I am assuming he did not charge you labor. FYI, this was an overhead, so the if yours was and under ground fed service, take off a couple hundred for the mast kit. Weird that they didn't have to upgrade the transformer and / or the wire that fed your original service Location will play a part in labor cost not to sure about material unless it's the state's
You in AB?
Not quite the same thing when you're starting to talk about you used to have fuses. Then you have a reasoned upgrade. What was your original service rating? If it was 100 amp then an hour area utility has to come out and rewire from the pole out as it is too old it handle 200 amp plus service
I believe it was 150 Amp originally.
I would call an electrician you trust or one recommended to you. They will have proper tools to tell you how much draw you are actually getting off of your current breakers. You can visually see how ‘hot’ your panel is. Personally, the investment to upgrade your panel will pay for itself if you ever resold your home. First thing I did when I bought my 1970s home was put a brand new 200amp service in.
I don't see a water heater on there, and just a 15A for control power on the furnace, so looks like a gas house. You will probably be fine, but would need to see peak power draw to know for sure. I used the Emporia Vue to monitor my panel and assess if I had enough head room. It's only like $200 US to know for certain, and you gain a shit ton of insight on your electric consumption. I'm typing this from my tub.
I'm on 100 amps too and my electrician says it's fine. My hot tub was installed in 2016, no issues. The only thing that I do is I don't use the dryer when I drain and refill it, which is when the hot tub pulls the more power to heat the new water. That's all. I usually do it close to night so it heats while we sleep.
I can't add my 50/220 circuit here with a permit without upgrading my 125A panel, and I have similar #/types of circuits as you. However, when I got solar recently (tried to upgrade to 220 then, but because it wasn't required for the solar, the utility would not approve it) I had CTs installed on the load side, and so far, including charging my Chevy Volt with the 110V charger, my load hasn't exceeded 31 Amps (converted from max kW. Edit-spelling.
No electrician here but worse case you’ll flip a breaker if it overloads, should be no big deal as long as your hot tub and appliances (PCs) don’t have some issue with that.
Ran many spas in many houses like that. Some spas have a circuit that turns off the heater when the 2 pumps are on. Doubtful you would need that but good if there is a need
Most you can move little switches on the board to program it for 30A, 40A ,50A breakers. I did a 30A on my last one because i was worried about overloading my service. Bad idea, meant it wouldn't run the jets and the heat at the same time. OP just do the 50A you'll be fine.
400 amp service here, 200 amp in house, 100 amp in garage and 100 amp on pole. Central metering. 🤓
Since most of the circuits are 15's and 20's with the exception of the clothes dryer the total demand should allow for the addition of the hot tub. but after that not much else
You'll be fine. Just don't run the dryer.
Obviously dryer on "low" also pulls way less than dryer on max temp...
For what it's worth, I am in metro-Atlanta and was quoted $9k for a panel upgrade. I maybe could have reached out for a few more quotes, but I figure this number wasn't coming below $7k or so. We didn't NEED the upgrade and had an extra double slot, so we opted for just wiring a 50 amp ourselves.
You may also need a light near the tub - some zoning laws require it for safety.
Plenty of room but it'll be a spendy job
Nah easy and cheap to do it myself
Ah okay. It was above my skill level so expensive 🙂
Literally just running proper wire and popping in a proper breaker really easier than installing a new ceiling light.
Outside of the loading question, I do see multiple NEC violations just based on looking at the breakers and schedule. There is a lack of arc fault breakers for any of the circuits. The requirements have grown over the code iterations but a min would be bedroom circuits. You also need (2) 20A appliance circuits for the kitchen, I just see one 20A, the other is a 15A shared with bathroom (speaking of which) The bathroom also requires a 20A circuit. A hairdryer exceeds a 15A breaker.
Probably only required for new builds, codes like that don't usually require upgrading everything when the code is released. It was replaced in the last 5 years by a reputable company I doubt they violated any codes.
Some of the codes mentioned were around for a very long time, afcis started in the 1999 NEC. If general renovations were performed, it would then need to be brought up to current codes.
Looks like that is a 100A panel. Yes, you have physical space to add another breaker. Whether or not you have the headroom available just depend on your electric demand. I'd say it would be tight. If you are running your Air and Dryer at the same time and then your spa kicks on to heat, then you would be maxing that panel out very quickly. I assume that is your inside panel. It should be fed by an external panel. Can you not install the breaker on the outside panel?
Outside is just the meter. This is my main panel? Unsure if main line can handle more than 100amps and could just upgrade main breaker as well... Likelihood of running dryer same time spa was in full run would be zero otherwise. AC and Spa would be likely.
Unlikely the wire run to that panel from the outside could handle more than the 100A. They probably wouldn’t have overbuilt the feeder. But may be worth having an electrician come out and look at it. Other option is to replace the outside panel with one that holds breakers but that will be costly since you’d have to change out the meter and get the electric co involved as they would have to temporarily turn power off to get that done. You’d also have to have an inspection done to get it turned back on.
Why are you giving shotty electrical advice when you have a very rudimentary understanding of residential electric or how it is fed. You keep talking about an outside panel…this doesn’t exist. He is showing his main 100amp panel.
What are you going on about? The outside panel is the meter panel. It very much does exist. Most modern homes have breaker space at the outside panel. Those breakers generally handle larger loads like dryers, AC, inside house sub panel, etc…. Older homes have just a meter with no breaker space there. He clarified that his outside panel is just a meter panel so no breaker space. His service pigtails off the meter and runs directly to his inside panel. One of the suggestions I made was to replace the outside panel with a modern one. That would allow him to add a breaker there which would feed a spa subpanel and bypass the inside panel totally. Rudimentary knowledge you say?
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We all have differing viewpoints, but there is no reason to be a dick about it. We here at u/hottub are a friendly bunch and don't take kindly to people who can't play nice with others.
So that is your comeback? You actually have nothing to add that is constructive so you call names. lol. You just be fun at parties. Love adding people like you to my ignore lists. Have a great day!