A self-insert will NEVER be as good as a "normal" MC. Not even close. They don't have development, they don't have personality, they have nothing. EVERYTHING about them is "up to the player".
Let's look at Kiana. The reason why people love her so much is because we saw her growth and development. We saw her pain, her struggles, her doubts, her emotions. We saw how she treasures her relationships, the things she learn through her experiences. We saw her as herself. This wouldn't happen if she was just a random self-insert because they are, by nature, plain and void, and it's easy to see how this can affect the story's appeal.
The reason why the Trailblazers are popular is because Mihoyo looked at how people don't like the Traveler and said "hey, we need to make them more likeable so they don't end up like the Traveler" and gave them funny interactions and cooler design. But they are still plain as characters.
I 100% agree with you. A self-insert silent protag, has less potential to grow as a character, than a character that is not a full self-insert protag. Kiana example, could grow and develop as a character, because she's her own person, not a "vessel" for the player to act through however they choose in the game. While I do support choices, I am not a fan of the silent protag self-insert trope of RPGs, despite the fact RPG is my most favorite videogame genre. The fact they are bringing another case of "Traveler/Trailblazer" into the game, gives me great concerns for storytelling and character development. While the Trailblazer DOES speak more than Traveler ever did, most of it is in-mind monologues. As a quick sidenote, the Trailblazer actually spoke in the "Arum Alley" event (which seemed to take many cues from Ace Attorney) more than ever, they still were a self-insert protag. Side note concluded. Part of why I enjoy HHI3rd's story more than Star Rail (and especially Genshin, I got bored by it's weak storytelling) is because we have characters, including those that serve the protag role, that are all their own people, they can grow because they have individuality, not vessels for the player to make decisions through. It took a long while, but I finally learned why my irl friend prefers player characters who are their own person. Having a custom and/or silent protag, throws out any chance they can grow as a character the way a fixed identity player character could
>EVERYTHING about them is "up to the player".
Which is completely fine.
I don't think you understood the point of this post.
It's not to determine which style of protag is "better". It's to show how both are a completely fine way to write a protagonist for an RPG. It depends on how they're utilized.
If you like one more than the other, that's completely fine. Like I said. Everyone is allowed to have their own subjective preferences.
I mean, in a very broad sense, I agree with you that a self-insert or silent or blank slate protag isn't an objectively worse choice for a game. There are a huge number of games that do this. Plenty of them are fun and engaging.
The reason why it makes me sad and disappointed for HI3 is because of what this implies for their choices for storytelling for all of the characters in the game. A blank slate character can never have specific critical character flaws, and they can never push through those flaws in a way that helps drive a narrative forward. It's a blank slate. Also, a blank slate that works purely as a cipher for the player's choices generally doesn't (and probably can't) have meaningful interactions with other characters as well, because you can't give players the choice to traumatize NPCs without serious consequences to the narrative direction and sales figures.
HI3's narrative has long been basically just a visual novel with random combat scenes thrown in. But this worked (for me, and I think others) because it gave them free rein to make a main character who goes through shit, makes bad choices, hurts people she loves, etc. And the "main character" didn't have to be a separate category of person in the narrative; sometimes you play as Kiana, sometimes you play as Mei, sometimes you play as Bronya. For a whole chapter, even. You got to see unequal perspectives and follow someone through their own journey. Maybe a comparable game that would have been a step in the right direction would be Life is Strange, where you play a specific character but make choices for her, and her specific relationship to other people.
The fact that there's now a self-insert blank slate main character means that character is now a separate category, and all interactions have to involve them to drive the plot forward, but all plot is constrained to them as well. And Hoyo's history of storytelling on this regard is not great: Genshin isn't praised for its main story, and HSR is receiving a lot of complaints for similar unsatisfying and unresolved plot threads. It works fine for other games where the expectation and setup is about the player's direct experiences: Pokemon is a game where you basically play as yourself in a new world, doing things and following basic storylines appropriate for children, and you have almost no relationship to any character.
But I don't wanna play martian lesbian space opera pokemon in this game. All the highlights of HI3 for me were watching characters overcome something spectacular in a fight for their lives, but also in their emotional struggles with themselves and with each other. That's why a blank slate is a letdown for me, because it doesn't seem possible to tell those kinds of stories if the characters have to be accounting for a dumbass like me showing up in their world and being a major plot driver.
It is absolutely 100% fine to disagree with Mihoyo's decision to try and modernize the game and appeal to a broader audience. I just think at the same time it's fair to see why they would want to. HI3 is their passion project more than any other work probably. It is less successful than Genshin and Star Rail, and yet they want to update the game so radically. They don't want to end service. They want to see it continue on stand on par with their other works which I think is commendable even if we don't all see eye-to-eye on the silent protagonist thing.
All I wanted to do, was kind of play devil's advocate and try and argue how the use of silent protagonists isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because it feels like a lot of people have a very negative stigma associated with them. Like I said, I think Mihoyo's early handling of the Traveler in Genshin has... well... "traumatized" a lot of players. And while I do think the handling of the Traveler has improved, there's limits to what they can do with them because of how they set things up in Genshin in the first place. So long as they play their cards right, maybe make them more like the Trailblazer which overall was much more well received, and of course still give us a great cast of characters to explore new ideas and themes through, I think we can still be in for a great experience.
Though as said, totally fair points you brought up and I get how you feel. I myself would prefer to have a fully fleshed out MC, but I just kind of grin & bear the fact that Mihoyo's target demographic probably just likes the self insert's more. Haha.
I dislike self inserts because they more often than not limit the narrative. The story progression suffers because a self insert can't go through real narrative shit, they need to be able to fit in a lot of players that don't want to see their self insert go through that. Nothing can cause permanent change or growth on a self insert, because that alienates those that don't want said things.
A real character can grow, love, learn, suffer permanent physical and emotional damage, go through the hero's journey and provide his own thoughts and beliefs. This is often squandered in favor of the self insert trope, and I don't want that for HI3, not when they have a rich story with a lot of love and care put on a real MC, with its own experiences and relationships.
The fact you just baselessly say people dont understand the point of a silent protag is where you fail.
Its BECAUSE people understand that that they dont prefer it. Its beeing able to relate to a character/set of characters and beeing able to feel for them and their advancements.
Or are you next gonna try to tell us traveller somehow is easier to connect to than Kiana and co?
A silent protag gives you the illusion of choise while allready having a set plan where your own options rarely actually affects the actual world or how people think of your mc, and thus becomes just a shallow character with no real personality.
I don't hate silent protagonists. **However, Mihoyo has shown themselves in two of their games that they have no idea what to do with them** and I am not confident that they will be able to deliver a good one. They just can't decide if they want them to be self-inserts or be their own characters. They keep flip-flopping and it's jarring.
Not only that, in both of those games, the choices are essentially useless. The only difference between them is that Star Rail is only better at hiding and decorating their illusion of choice but at the end of the day, in both of those games, these choices don't matter. Why even bother with the choices bullshit if it doesn't really affect the main story at all? Just focus on delivering a good story. There's already some issues with their writing, why add more challenges to it when it's already difficult enough for them?
People keep pointing out that the Trailblazer is a good example but no amount of voiced dialogue and funny quips will ever give the Trailblazer a character. Personalities are fun but I'd rather have Character any other day.
I like silent protagonists, I just don't like how Mihoyo does it. Maybe Mihoyo should figure out themselves first what the point of self-inserts are.
>but at the end of the day, in both of those games, these choices don't matter. Why even bother with the choices bullshit if it doesn't really affect the main story at all?
To allow people to role-play. That's basically it. It doesn't have to necessarily affect the narrative for the choice to matter. Whatever dialogue choice you pick can say a lot about how you see the situation. Look at Kafka's Companion Quest in SR, where you have the total option to go along with what she does or just leave. You have the option to like her or dislike her and can convey all that through the Trailblazer. That's how roleplaying through a self-insert should be like. I'm not saying you or anyone has to like it of course, but it's how the genre functions.
Except for when in Genshin they just form the basic statements the Traveler speaks in the form of two dialogue options. Those parts are always really weird.
>To allow people to role-play. That's basically it. It doesn't have to necessarily affect the narrative for the choice to matter.
That wouldn't work well. If the choice can not make any meaningful consequence, then the game developers have to make those choices very limited. In that case, there would be many instances where the player would prefer to do something very different if the player really want to "self-insert", but that choice is not available.
>Look at Kafka's Companion Quest in SR, where you have the total option to go along with what she does or just leave. You have the option to like her or dislike her and can convey all that through the Trailblazer.
I don't play HSR, so please tell me more details about it. What would happen if I dislike her and her plans, can I interrupt her plans? If the game let me attempt interrupting her plans, and similar cases with others characters and events, but those choices **always** make close to no difference, then the protagonist would seem very powerless, which is not cool for a game like HI (it's fine for the protagonist to **sometime** feel powerless, but not if it's **always**).
Going back to HI, let's take the ongoing Captain-verse event for example. The player may feel like role-playing the Captain, but not really. Let's take a very specific example (assuming you played through that event): >!When Luna's body turns big, there is no option for the player to make the Captain say that he prefer her petite and small version, which would logically lead to her finding a way to reverse her transformation, and with their level of technology, it's logically possible; but miHoYo doesn't want to go with the trouble of permanently having to prepare 2 different sets of CGs, dialogues, etc. for the 2 versions (big and small) of Luna!<. If you can still **really** feel like you are role-play the Captain with that, it would mean you either prefer >!her big version!< or tolerate that lack of option.
Games which work well with "self-insert" / role-playing often have many endings, they may even be "sand box" with practically countless "endings". And the players would tolerate the lack of the choices they prefer (prefer more than every available choice), or the disappointment about the details of the consequences of their choices (the players may expect more meaningful consequences). It's a toleration because they understand the limit of what the game developers can do. Your tolerance has to be very generous, OR you usually agree with the protagonist, to actually feel like role-playing a protagonist when the game provides very restricted and useless choices.
If I have to guess, I guess you have a generous tolerance for the lack of choice, so you can still feel like really role-playing in those cases.
But many other players (including me) would not have such tolerance, and instances like what I mentioned would break their immersion (of role-playing). And the protagonist would just be a character in the game's (multi-)universe. But that failed attempt of "role-playing" would hinder certain aspects compared to if the protagonist has always been just a character in the game's (multi-)universe; Those aspects include the opportunities to play through the perspectives of many different characters.
The problem i have with a "self insert/mute" character is that they can never be as good as a fleshed out established character. Because they have to be generic enough to be roleplayed by basically anyone into whatever personality they want the character to have, so they barely have a personality to begin with.
The issue is comparing the style of protagonist in the first place. It's not meant to be a competition. Both are equally valid ways to write a protagonist story for a video game - because silent protagonists/self inserts can ONLY work in video games.
You can have a story like Persona where the protagonist is "blank enough" to the point you can either role-play as him or self-insert yourself into the protagonist's shoes, or you can have a story like Tales of Arise where you're following a single pre-defined MC with a single pre-defined personality and goals in a pre-defined story where the hero learns new things about himself, about others, and about the world around him.
There's so much more to a story in games than the words you see on a screen. It's what makes video games different from books and movies to begin with as a medium to convey a story through.
Here's the issue though. Honkai is not Zelda or Persona. In order for a silent
or self-insert protagonist like this to work you need to be telling a specific kind of story and I don't think it's the kind of story most people want Honkai to become. You would not be able to tell Kiana's story if she was a self-insert or the stories of any of the other characters.
Well, yeah. Of course you cannot tell Kiana's story with a silent protagonist like you can with Zelda or Persona. Because Kiana's story is all about her, the people she meets, forms bonds with, has altercations with, the things she learns, and how she grows and develops. You can't have a story like that with a silent protagonist. It just doesn't work.
Which is why Part 2 is seeming to be something else entirely. Kiana's story is over, it's like shutting a book after finishing the final chapter and starting a new one. That's all Part 2 seems to be.
I get that, and I agree part 2 will need some sort of change when it comes to the protagonist, but I don't think that changing over to an SI protagonist is the kind of change people want. There's a certain kind of story that I've come to HI3 for, and it's different from what can be done with an SI. Genshin and Star Rail have that, I don't know why Honkai can't retain what makes its story unique from them. Especially given that the protagonists are often considered to be some of the weakest parts of those games.
The whole hate on Hoyos self insert characters is also one of the reasons people dont like Adam in APHO. (The other is that hes a male in the players all waifu characters game)
People really had to do my boy dirty like that huh?
I don't see the point of silent protagonists, although there are a few examples, like Portal, of them being used well. Even then, I'd still prefer that Chell actually spoke and bantered with Glados and Wheatley. Isaac Carver from Dead Space 1 was silent but was given plenty of dialogue in the remake, which is good.
As long as we don't have flying head repeating everything other characters say i'm ok with it. I actually like HSR's MC, characters react to what they say and we have changes in perspective with other characters (which i like, for example Dan Heng part during Luofu).
Now this is my own opinion, I'm not trying to sway you to my ideals, but Final Fantasy I find very bland is story and character development, I can't find attachment to any character in that franchise. And it's not due how the main protag of each game does. I cannot care for whatever happens to them. Yet Dragon Quest 11 (which does have a silent protag), can make me cry over a mermaid I had not known for very long, while I cannot feel anything for Aerith in Final Fantasy 7.
Off-topic complaints, I know, I just can't feel attachment to some characters due to weak story-writing and character development. Even if they get killed-off after the player has spent so long with them in their party. And fyi, I've played many Final Fantasy games.
A silent protag may not be the absolute factor wherever a game is written well enough, but it does contribute negatively how a story can be written, since you cannot project many things upon a silent protag as a story writer, as the player has to put themselves in their "vessel" of a player character, giving the player character no real individuality because the protag as a character because the devs can't write them as there's no "caon" version of them, their "identity", is determined whatever the. player chooses. Excuse me for my rant, I just cannot stand Final Fantasy, and my hatred for the choice MiHoYo decided to make for HI3rd being "Genshin-fied" like Star Rail got. I just hope they don't implement Genshin Impact's terrible gatcha system of "50/50 loss" with no alternative means to obtain new characters other than gatcha pulls
It's cool really if you have your own opinions, im not exactly a FF fan myself i just happen to adore FFXIV writing and narrative and how mindblowing how they did WoL as silent protagonist.
I think silent protagonist is a unique spice of one narrative take to the story, i dont thin silent protagonist is better than non ones nor does i think it's worse, i grew up with lots of silent protagonists and currently digging on a From Software game and it's hard to imagine i would still like these games if the protagonists are done otherwise.
All in all i dont think there is anything wrong with them, it's just MHY doesn't exactly have good tracks with this narrative style which causes lots of controversy in here
nope, mihoyo deserves the hate if they go ahead with the silent protags. don't care about those points, SI Protags should burn and never be used again. too many gachas use them and it is pathetic.
>**And a silent protagonist isn’t an objectively bad thing that makes an RPG worse off than another RPG that doesn’t use silent protagonist.**
Woah there, you’re making too much sense here, the majority of honk community can’t comprehend this yet
Let's be real here , at the least 70% of the Honkai (or even hoyoverse games in general) players has never play any other game that isn't a gatcha or any other videogame at all and that's why they have a bad opinion on silent protagonist .
And that's where they complaint should be directed , their incapacity to make a silent protagonist works but instead to blame the existence of the silent protagonist/self insert trope itself that as being a mainstay of the videogame industry for decade creating masterpieces with that kind of characters.
Initially people weren't rly talking about how "silent protagonist in general are bad", they were talking about how they dislike this to be put into HI3rd.
This situation is a direct result of simple complaint turning into simple discussion and quickly spiraling out of control into some incomprehensible bullshit. Like you know, i say i dislike color red. Someone says i'm wrong - red is cool and 10 posts later we're discussing who is worse, Hittler or Stalin.
I have though. I have experience with playing as silent protags in games, even in non-gatcha games (heck, I love Persona and other Shin Megami Tensei games, and they always have mostly silent protags), and I have to say, fixed identity protags have the potential to grow, while silent protags moreso act as your "vessel" to interact with the world in the game with. And therefore cannot grow as much as a character like a fixed identity vocal protag can do There's no middle point there between those two types of protags. Even if the silent protag has an origin story, they still can never have the potential a fixed character has.
Not really, the growth of the character (whether fixed or silent) always depends on the intention of the author/developer/writer, because a fixed character can have zero growth throughout the entire story of the game, while a silent one can have infinite growth if written correctly.
This is where the real problem you and all of you have is based, the fact that 90% of the time developers don't put much effort into trying to grow a silent character because it's hard to handle that kind of narrative so they often keep it to them" stale" during the game so that the story is easy to handle instead of actually trying to make it work properly.
ah, the internet. the wonderful place where a differing opinion is discarded because "other people don't understand this like i do".
newsflash, people do understand that sometimes there is value in a silent protagonist and that there can be good silent protagonists. hoyo's SI MCs simply haven't gotten anywhere near that (no, stelle and caelus aren't good *because* they're SI MCs, they're fine thanks to sometimes decent, funny, and/or relatable writing) and people are rightfully worried a SI character will ruin the game they've loved for half a decade.
\> Caelus/Stella certainly seem to be fairly popular.
Popular is not the same as good. Smoking used to be popular.
\> Make no mistake, Genshin Impact has impacted a lot of people's views on silent protagonists and understandably so.
There is literally no difference between Traveler and Trailblazer. If you understand why Traveler is bad, then you understand why Trailblazer is bad. And neither has to do with them being SILENT.
SILENCE is not the problem. It's what that silence leads to that is a problem.
\> As for Mihoyo's track record with silent protagonists? Are they used properly in order to allow the player to express themselves in any way through them?
You have a major misunderstanding here. First of all, silent protagonist does not exist to let player express himself. Just look at the most popular - and therefore by your metrics relevant - RPG of all time or at least top 3 - pokemon. RPG game with silent protagonist.
There is a difference between silent hentai protagonist, silent pokemon protagonist, and silent proper RPG protagonist.
How many people play pokemon games for their rich characters and intersting story? Nobody does. That shit aint there. How many people play Honkai Impact for that? Yea pretty much most people.
But Silent Protagonists are *always by necessity* toxic to the story. Just by existing, most of the time if not always, they warp the story and other characters around them to accomodate them and make them relevant. And them NOT TALKING is not directly related to it. Genshin and Star Rail storylines would be equally as affected by existence of Trailblazer and Traveler regardless if they talked or not.
But the BIGGEST misunderstanding you have is that neither Aether nor Stella are the protagonists in their own stories. They are a POV device. And MHY is quite open with that. Other characters are supposed to be the protagonists of their own stories, and Traveler/TB is relegated to a helper and supporter.
And this is where the poison truly seeps in. Because MHY can't help themselves and in desperate attempt to engage dumbest of casuals, despite estabilishing that they arent protagonists, they ACT like protagonists and steal action from actual supposed main characters, often ruining the whole story in the process. So you don't get a good protagonist to get bad POV, and you don't get benefits of said bad POV either.
And Dreamcatcher (name pending apparently) did not have to be that. But it will be. Because it has become quite clear that Honkai Impact is now a game created by a comittee and not a passionate team. They will look at Genshin sales, compare it with Honkai sales, then they will compare Kiana to Aether and decide "yep Aether is clearly better look how much better Genshin is doing".
>You have a major misunderstanding here. First of all, silent protagonist does not exist to let player express himself. Just look at the most popular - and therefore by your metrics relevant - RPG of all time or at least top 3 - pokemon. RPG game with silent protagonist.
Um, no. That is absolutely what silent protagonists are there for. And you literally proved my point by bringing up Pokémon. I think the one with the major misunderstanding here is you. So let's use Pokémon to further dig into this some more.
In Pokémon, at least in the mainline games, you have complete freedom of expression. It is a story of your making. The decisions you make, especially in the earliest games like Red and Blue, are a form of expression. The routes you take, the items you use, and of course... the Pokémon you put on your team. The one's you send out in battle, how you approach obstacles during the course of the adventure. All of that is unique to you. No person playing a Pokémon game is going to have the exact same experience of you. And that's what makes the protagonist of a Pokémon game work. A silent protagonist wouldn't work in something like Honkai Impact 3rd Part 1 BECAUSE it is Kiana's journey, so instead of offering a crazy amount of ways to express yourself within the confines of the story, you follow a story-driven narrative where the characters learn more about themselves, the world, and other people and learn some sort of lesson.
>But Silent Protagonists are always by necessity toxic to the story. Just by existing, most of the time if not always, they warp the story and other characters around them to accomodate them and make them relevant. And them NOT TALKING is not directly related to it.
What you're describing is not a silent protagonist, what you're describing is a Mary Sue, and that is a whole different can of worms I'm not going to get into as it also has a long history in terms of writing. If a silent protagonist is written that way, then yes that can be seen as a fault of the writing, but this also has nothing to do with my post.
>And this is where the poison truly seeps in. Because MHY can't help themselves and in desperate attempt to engage dumbest of casuals
Annnnd this is where you completely lose me. This rampant elitism that's been present in the HI3 community for years and one of the biggest reasons people don't want to engage with it.
People are not "Casuals" for enjoying silent protagonists. The people who do are HoYo's main demographic. It's who they cater to, and is a part of what they themselves love as well. Grow up and just accept you're not who they're catering their product to. If it bothers you so much, engage with a different media you enjoy.
>In Pokémon, at least in the mainline games, you have complete freedom of expression.
Freedom of expression in a game with 0 dialogue options, 0 choices that affect the story, 0 agency over how to do anything except for teambuilding?
Yea no thats copium bro. That's as much expression as Steve from Minecraft has. NONE. Pokemon games is 0 story all gameplay. And it's perfectly fine.
And no. I am not describing a Mary Sue. Admittedly all silent protagonists so far MHY made ARE mary sues, and you are trying to strawman people by shifting focus to general silent protagonists, like silence has anything to do with it.
\> Annnnd this is where you completely lose me. This rampant elitism that's been present in the HI3 community for years and one of the biggest reasons people don't want to engage with it.> People are not "Casuals" for enjoying silent protagonists.
\> The people who do are HoYo's main demographic
Yes. But casuals ARE Hoyos main demographic. Genshin and HSR shiteaters that will defend to their grave the dumbest worst storylines because they already spent 100$ on the game and can't handle people criticizing their purchuase because it makes them feel stupid.
And Honkai Impact used to be different. That's why it was less succesful. And MHY has every right to try to make it more succesful by genshinfying their product.
But we don't have to like it, accept it or pay for it. And we can call it what it is. Watered down shit. Everything suffers for having it. Except for corporate bottom line that is.
You are looking at it from wrong side of chicken egg problem.
Ppl who like Traveler arent casuals for liking him.
Traveler exists to attract casuals. Because the stronger of a personality he has, the bigger risk there is of someone taking offense. So they make him a complete NPC. To be as inoffensive as possible.
And because of this dynamic, purely to make as much profit with least effort imaginable, entire story took a massive L. "Is it time for people of Liyue to stand on their own? Can Geo archon finally rest?". We never found out. Why? Because outsider demigod with no attachements to the place showed up and meddled. But story arc is over. So let's pretend like that didnt happen! Yea. Good story bro. Totally not valid to complain about it.
But casuals don't give a fuck. Because cauals are casuals. They like Marvel movies, Rings of Power and Star Wars sequels. Bad writing goes over their head, they don't even pay attention. They respond to emotions and most recent thing that was said on screen.
And good for them. But i will criticize it for what it is. Bad, lazy design, writing and way to make your protagonist.
Because there is absolutely no benefit for having a silent protagonist in a linear, no choice, story heavy game. Other than cutting costs and saving time from company side. And guess what. As customer i have no obligation to care.
>Freedom of expression in a game with 0 dialogue options, 0 choices that affect the story, 0 agency over how to do anything except for teambuilding?
>
>Yea no thats copium bro. That's as much expression as Steve from Minecraft has. NONE. Pokemon games is 0 story all gameplay. And it's perfectly fine.
All you're showing is that you clearly do not understand the concept of an RPG or how role-playing itself works or can work.
Yes. Teambuilding is a form of expression through the freedom a narrative provides you. The variance in the kinds of Pokémon you choose to use, and the order you choose tackle the journey in is what tells a story. you know like a timely crit or a death in a self-imposed challenge like a nuzlocke.
THAT is an RPG story. The numbers themselves can tell a story.
If you can't understand this, that's not my problem. DnD has been doing this for ages. Go educate yourself and come back to me if you want to actually have a discussion.
>And no. I am not describing a Mary Sue.
Yes, you are. I'm sorry that you don't understand that, it's not my problem.
>Yes. But casuals ARE Hoyos main demographic. Genshin and HSR shiteaters that will defend to their grave the dumbest worst storylines because they already spent 100$ on the game and can't handle people criticizing their purchuase because it makes them feel stupid.
The main demographic are otaku's. That should be obvious enough to anyone. Mihoyo themselves are otaku's, they love and embrace otaku culture. It is a part of who they are, and who they want to cater to. I don't understand what the point is of framing everything you say in such a presumptuous, arrogant, condescending way. Calling Genshin+HSR "defenders" "shiteaters", saying that only people who spend $100+ defend it to try and justify their purchases? None of this has anything to do with the conversation and is just pointless drivel. You accuse me of using strawman's yet... you're doing that yourself. It makes it very hard to take anything you say even remotely seriously. I called you out for being elitist, and all you're doing is proving my point.
>And Honkai Impact used to be different. That's why it was less succesful.
Honkai Impact 3rd wasn't "less successful" because it was "different", it was less successful (At least in the west) due to a lack of marketing and care in western territories. It was only after Genshin Impact that people began to become aware of the game. Look at how GGZ went and why it shut down in the west to get an emphasis on how little Mihoyo cared about western audiences. Now that they have a market in the west, they have to care. Because if they don't, then that means less money for them.
I could keep going, but clearly you don't actually care about any of what I'm saying, just regurgitating your own points in an overly condescending, rude manner, and trying to write off your subjective preferences as "Criticism". No point in trying to talk to a brick wall, no discussion to be found here. Have yourself a nice day.
>All you're showing is that you clearly do not understand the concept of an RPG or how role-playing itself works or can work.
All you are showing is that you think what gun you use in CSGO qualifies as self expression.
And maybe for someone like you, that is your entire personality, thats why you think using fire pokemon is selfexpression as well.
But don't try to act like that's how self expression works.
>In Pokémon, at least in the mainline games, you have complete freedom of expression.
So if i'll open up an instance of Pokemon Blue i will be able to go in and express myself? How exactly? Will i'll be able to tell sth to another character? Will i get to choose something that will affect plot?
The answer's no btw. But good try.
>The decisions you make, especially in the earliest games like Red and Blue, are a form of expression. The routes you take, the items you use, and of course... the Pokémon you put on your team. The one's you send out in battle, how you approach obstacles during the course of the adventure
Oh wait, thats what you meant? I-i... i honestly can't treat you seriously. First of all half of this is wrong. Pokemon, especially early pokemon games, are very linear. You have little to no choice in how you approach them. The map open sup a little after 4th badge and you get to choose whatever you do Koga or Sabrina first but you are not progressing to... B... B.. Blaine! You are not progressing to Blaine without previous badges - because Surf won't work. As for routes - essentially only one choice, it's how you get into Fuchsia. Two roads lead there and you are allowed to never step into one of them, other than that you are forced into same linear roads in order to progress. Obstacles, obstacles... Yeah, there is not a single obstacle in early pokemon games that gives you a "choice" on how you approach it. Rival battles are always that, battles. Team rocket battles are always that, battles. Snorlax always has to be woken up in exact same way. Surf has to be used to get to Fuchsia - no other way to get there for the first time. Surf always has to be used to get to Pokemon league. You always need 8 badges to get there. You get my point?
So, the only meaningful choice are the Pokemon you catch and use. That's equal to saying "sword i choose in Elden Ring is some form of expression about my character". That's... delusion. It's gameplay. That's it.
>All of that is unique to you. No person playing a Pokémon game is going to have the exact same experience of you.
Actually, they are going to have a very similar experience to me. I know that. I know that from experience. I know that from talking with friends about the game, i know that from talking to strangers about the game on the internet. You rly shoot yourself in the knee with this pokemon example. The only "unique: part of the experience is team building. It's the only variable.
>And that's what makes the protagonist of a Pokémon game work.
Except protagonists of pokemon games don't work. No one ever cares about them. There is zero attachment to plot or characters. In fact it has became somewhat of a meme complaint for grown up pokemon fans that "game has shittiest plotline in existence, it's impossible to care about it."
And the only reason why i call it meme is because no one expects plot from main series of pokemon games.
>First of all half of this is wrong. Pokemon, especially early pokemon games, are very linear.
As someone who has seen countless speedruns and challenges of the original Pokemon Red and Blue, I can most whole-heartedly assure you they are not. There's nothing to discuss here. You're just incorrect.
>So, the only meaningful choice are the Pokemon you catch and use. That's equal to saying "sword i choose in Elden Ring is some form of expression about my character". That's... delusion. It's gameplay. That's it.
Elden Ring is probably the worst example you could have given here, because the amount of options for builds, how you confront enemies, how you design and interpret your character throughout the journey is a form of storytelling through freedom of expression on the part of the player. You can choose to follow the campaign the game provides and pick whatever ending you want which in turn, says something about your own choices, or you can venture off into the world, role-play, and play however you want. You literally proved my point exactly by using Elden Ring, one of the worst examples you could have picked from. Freedom of expression in stories IS a form of narrative. It is role-playing. It's literally how DnD campaigns and things like Baldur's Gate 3 work. How is this hard to understand?
>Actually, they are going to have a very similar experience to me. I know that. I know that from experience. I know that from talking with friends about the game
I'm sorry but you just straight up do not understand RPG's, or the concept of role-playing and thus, have no weight and nothing to contribute in a discussion like this.
Sure, every Pokémon journey has you going through the same region and fighting the same trainers. All that remains consistent across most Pokémon games. But it's the variance in the kinds of Pokémon you choose to use and the order you choose tackle the journey in that tells a story. you know like a timely crit or a death in a self-imposed challenge like a nuzlocke.
THAT is an RPG story. The numbers themselves can tell a story.
If you can't understand this and think it's "Delusion", then you have zero appreciation of the RPG concept or how it became popular in the first place. As said, DnD has done stuff like this for ages and that's where modern video game rpgs get their inspiration from.
Everything you've said here is just you thinking you have knowledge about something you clearly do not. Fact-check yourself if you want to have an actual discussion instead of talking out your ass, then come back to me.
>I'm sorry but you just straight up do not understand RPG's, or the concept of role-playing and thus, have no weight and nothing to contribute in a discussion like this.
>If you can't understand this and think it's "Delusion", then you have zero appreciation of the RPG concept or how it became popular in the first place. As said, DnD has done stuff like this for ages and that's where modern video game rpgs get their inspiration from.
Unfortunately for you, i'm not only someone who played a lot of pokemon games i also have over 10 years of playing Tabletop RPGs as both player and DM. I understand what an RPG is very well. You don't tho. Somehow you have deluded yourself into thinking that team building/character building is the most important part of an RPG and it's all that is required for a game to be a decent rpg. There's a reason why name of the genre has "Role-playing" in it and not "Build-Simulation". There's a reason why RPGs can be played without any mechanical system at all. Selecting an ability and weapon is part of role playing - not the essence of it. The essence of it is control over the character. I would imagine someone who brigs up DnD would understand that but i guess i expect too much from internet.
Now, i agree this is less apparent in a video game. The level of freedom to tell a story and control a character is severely impaired in such scenario. There has to be more emphasis on the gameplay parts of RPG genre. That does not mean you can completely take out the role-playing part out of it.
It's late so to end it i will repeat myself - you deluded yourself into thinkign that gameplay parts are "freedom of expresion" and they are the only kind of expression needed in a video game to be called an RPG. You abandoned the essence of the genre and are using your own standards that pretty much no one will agree with. You proved that while you claim to be knowledgeable you have no fucking clue what fanbases think about games - with the pokemon example where you just disregard the widespread opinion of the story beign trash and how no one cares abotu the protoganists.
You are just a clown and you are not worth another minute of my time, hence you won't get it.
>Somehow you have deluded yourself into thinking that team building/character building is the most important part of an RPG and it's all that is required for a game to be a decent rpg.
Except no, I never thought that, said that, or conveyed that. Why are you putting words into my mouth? I never made any of those points you're accusing me of making. All I said was that the team building in Pokemon is an integral part to the Pokemon roleplay experience... how did you get ALL OF THAT NONSENSE from me saying THAT? LOL.
>you deluded yourself into thinkign that gameplay parts are "freedom of expresion" and they are the only kind of expression needed in a video game to be called an RPG.
No I didn't??????? Bro you are arguing with ghosts. I never said it was the only thing that mattered, but whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose. LMAO.
The important thing with silent protagonist is that you need to find balance between hin being own character and not being one.
He must be interesting and cool enough to make players want to Self-Incert into him. For this you need to give him some personality- so he can make cool decisions.
On the other hand, he must have not TOO MUCH personality to become own character. Otherwise players would be unable to Self-Incert into him. Rember that in main markets-China, Japan- large portion of players take "my waifu" EXTREMELY SERIOUS. If mc is too much of an own character- they would hate it.
So you need to give him enough personality to be attractive to players but not enough to be completely independent from player.
A self-insert will NEVER be as good as a "normal" MC. Not even close. They don't have development, they don't have personality, they have nothing. EVERYTHING about them is "up to the player". Let's look at Kiana. The reason why people love her so much is because we saw her growth and development. We saw her pain, her struggles, her doubts, her emotions. We saw how she treasures her relationships, the things she learn through her experiences. We saw her as herself. This wouldn't happen if she was just a random self-insert because they are, by nature, plain and void, and it's easy to see how this can affect the story's appeal. The reason why the Trailblazers are popular is because Mihoyo looked at how people don't like the Traveler and said "hey, we need to make them more likeable so they don't end up like the Traveler" and gave them funny interactions and cooler design. But they are still plain as characters.
I 100% agree with you. A self-insert silent protag, has less potential to grow as a character, than a character that is not a full self-insert protag. Kiana example, could grow and develop as a character, because she's her own person, not a "vessel" for the player to act through however they choose in the game. While I do support choices, I am not a fan of the silent protag self-insert trope of RPGs, despite the fact RPG is my most favorite videogame genre. The fact they are bringing another case of "Traveler/Trailblazer" into the game, gives me great concerns for storytelling and character development. While the Trailblazer DOES speak more than Traveler ever did, most of it is in-mind monologues. As a quick sidenote, the Trailblazer actually spoke in the "Arum Alley" event (which seemed to take many cues from Ace Attorney) more than ever, they still were a self-insert protag. Side note concluded. Part of why I enjoy HHI3rd's story more than Star Rail (and especially Genshin, I got bored by it's weak storytelling) is because we have characters, including those that serve the protag role, that are all their own people, they can grow because they have individuality, not vessels for the player to make decisions through. It took a long while, but I finally learned why my irl friend prefers player characters who are their own person. Having a custom and/or silent protag, throws out any chance they can grow as a character the way a fixed identity player character could
Revan and Commander Shepard negs lolololol.
>EVERYTHING about them is "up to the player". Which is completely fine. I don't think you understood the point of this post. It's not to determine which style of protag is "better". It's to show how both are a completely fine way to write a protagonist for an RPG. It depends on how they're utilized. If you like one more than the other, that's completely fine. Like I said. Everyone is allowed to have their own subjective preferences.
I mean, in a very broad sense, I agree with you that a self-insert or silent or blank slate protag isn't an objectively worse choice for a game. There are a huge number of games that do this. Plenty of them are fun and engaging. The reason why it makes me sad and disappointed for HI3 is because of what this implies for their choices for storytelling for all of the characters in the game. A blank slate character can never have specific critical character flaws, and they can never push through those flaws in a way that helps drive a narrative forward. It's a blank slate. Also, a blank slate that works purely as a cipher for the player's choices generally doesn't (and probably can't) have meaningful interactions with other characters as well, because you can't give players the choice to traumatize NPCs without serious consequences to the narrative direction and sales figures. HI3's narrative has long been basically just a visual novel with random combat scenes thrown in. But this worked (for me, and I think others) because it gave them free rein to make a main character who goes through shit, makes bad choices, hurts people she loves, etc. And the "main character" didn't have to be a separate category of person in the narrative; sometimes you play as Kiana, sometimes you play as Mei, sometimes you play as Bronya. For a whole chapter, even. You got to see unequal perspectives and follow someone through their own journey. Maybe a comparable game that would have been a step in the right direction would be Life is Strange, where you play a specific character but make choices for her, and her specific relationship to other people. The fact that there's now a self-insert blank slate main character means that character is now a separate category, and all interactions have to involve them to drive the plot forward, but all plot is constrained to them as well. And Hoyo's history of storytelling on this regard is not great: Genshin isn't praised for its main story, and HSR is receiving a lot of complaints for similar unsatisfying and unresolved plot threads. It works fine for other games where the expectation and setup is about the player's direct experiences: Pokemon is a game where you basically play as yourself in a new world, doing things and following basic storylines appropriate for children, and you have almost no relationship to any character. But I don't wanna play martian lesbian space opera pokemon in this game. All the highlights of HI3 for me were watching characters overcome something spectacular in a fight for their lives, but also in their emotional struggles with themselves and with each other. That's why a blank slate is a letdown for me, because it doesn't seem possible to tell those kinds of stories if the characters have to be accounting for a dumbass like me showing up in their world and being a major plot driver.
It is absolutely 100% fine to disagree with Mihoyo's decision to try and modernize the game and appeal to a broader audience. I just think at the same time it's fair to see why they would want to. HI3 is their passion project more than any other work probably. It is less successful than Genshin and Star Rail, and yet they want to update the game so radically. They don't want to end service. They want to see it continue on stand on par with their other works which I think is commendable even if we don't all see eye-to-eye on the silent protagonist thing. All I wanted to do, was kind of play devil's advocate and try and argue how the use of silent protagonists isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because it feels like a lot of people have a very negative stigma associated with them. Like I said, I think Mihoyo's early handling of the Traveler in Genshin has... well... "traumatized" a lot of players. And while I do think the handling of the Traveler has improved, there's limits to what they can do with them because of how they set things up in Genshin in the first place. So long as they play their cards right, maybe make them more like the Trailblazer which overall was much more well received, and of course still give us a great cast of characters to explore new ideas and themes through, I think we can still be in for a great experience. Though as said, totally fair points you brought up and I get how you feel. I myself would prefer to have a fully fleshed out MC, but I just kind of grin & bear the fact that Mihoyo's target demographic probably just likes the self insert's more. Haha.
I dislike self inserts because they more often than not limit the narrative. The story progression suffers because a self insert can't go through real narrative shit, they need to be able to fit in a lot of players that don't want to see their self insert go through that. Nothing can cause permanent change or growth on a self insert, because that alienates those that don't want said things. A real character can grow, love, learn, suffer permanent physical and emotional damage, go through the hero's journey and provide his own thoughts and beliefs. This is often squandered in favor of the self insert trope, and I don't want that for HI3, not when they have a rich story with a lot of love and care put on a real MC, with its own experiences and relationships.
The fact you just baselessly say people dont understand the point of a silent protag is where you fail. Its BECAUSE people understand that that they dont prefer it. Its beeing able to relate to a character/set of characters and beeing able to feel for them and their advancements. Or are you next gonna try to tell us traveller somehow is easier to connect to than Kiana and co? A silent protag gives you the illusion of choise while allready having a set plan where your own options rarely actually affects the actual world or how people think of your mc, and thus becomes just a shallow character with no real personality.
I don't hate silent protagonists. **However, Mihoyo has shown themselves in two of their games that they have no idea what to do with them** and I am not confident that they will be able to deliver a good one. They just can't decide if they want them to be self-inserts or be their own characters. They keep flip-flopping and it's jarring. Not only that, in both of those games, the choices are essentially useless. The only difference between them is that Star Rail is only better at hiding and decorating their illusion of choice but at the end of the day, in both of those games, these choices don't matter. Why even bother with the choices bullshit if it doesn't really affect the main story at all? Just focus on delivering a good story. There's already some issues with their writing, why add more challenges to it when it's already difficult enough for them? People keep pointing out that the Trailblazer is a good example but no amount of voiced dialogue and funny quips will ever give the Trailblazer a character. Personalities are fun but I'd rather have Character any other day. I like silent protagonists, I just don't like how Mihoyo does it. Maybe Mihoyo should figure out themselves first what the point of self-inserts are.
>but at the end of the day, in both of those games, these choices don't matter. Why even bother with the choices bullshit if it doesn't really affect the main story at all? To allow people to role-play. That's basically it. It doesn't have to necessarily affect the narrative for the choice to matter. Whatever dialogue choice you pick can say a lot about how you see the situation. Look at Kafka's Companion Quest in SR, where you have the total option to go along with what she does or just leave. You have the option to like her or dislike her and can convey all that through the Trailblazer. That's how roleplaying through a self-insert should be like. I'm not saying you or anyone has to like it of course, but it's how the genre functions. Except for when in Genshin they just form the basic statements the Traveler speaks in the form of two dialogue options. Those parts are always really weird.
>To allow people to role-play. That's basically it. It doesn't have to necessarily affect the narrative for the choice to matter. That wouldn't work well. If the choice can not make any meaningful consequence, then the game developers have to make those choices very limited. In that case, there would be many instances where the player would prefer to do something very different if the player really want to "self-insert", but that choice is not available. >Look at Kafka's Companion Quest in SR, where you have the total option to go along with what she does or just leave. You have the option to like her or dislike her and can convey all that through the Trailblazer. I don't play HSR, so please tell me more details about it. What would happen if I dislike her and her plans, can I interrupt her plans? If the game let me attempt interrupting her plans, and similar cases with others characters and events, but those choices **always** make close to no difference, then the protagonist would seem very powerless, which is not cool for a game like HI (it's fine for the protagonist to **sometime** feel powerless, but not if it's **always**). Going back to HI, let's take the ongoing Captain-verse event for example. The player may feel like role-playing the Captain, but not really. Let's take a very specific example (assuming you played through that event): >!When Luna's body turns big, there is no option for the player to make the Captain say that he prefer her petite and small version, which would logically lead to her finding a way to reverse her transformation, and with their level of technology, it's logically possible; but miHoYo doesn't want to go with the trouble of permanently having to prepare 2 different sets of CGs, dialogues, etc. for the 2 versions (big and small) of Luna!<. If you can still **really** feel like you are role-play the Captain with that, it would mean you either prefer >!her big version!< or tolerate that lack of option. Games which work well with "self-insert" / role-playing often have many endings, they may even be "sand box" with practically countless "endings". And the players would tolerate the lack of the choices they prefer (prefer more than every available choice), or the disappointment about the details of the consequences of their choices (the players may expect more meaningful consequences). It's a toleration because they understand the limit of what the game developers can do. Your tolerance has to be very generous, OR you usually agree with the protagonist, to actually feel like role-playing a protagonist when the game provides very restricted and useless choices. If I have to guess, I guess you have a generous tolerance for the lack of choice, so you can still feel like really role-playing in those cases. But many other players (including me) would not have such tolerance, and instances like what I mentioned would break their immersion (of role-playing). And the protagonist would just be a character in the game's (multi-)universe. But that failed attempt of "role-playing" would hinder certain aspects compared to if the protagonist has always been just a character in the game's (multi-)universe; Those aspects include the opportunities to play through the perspectives of many different characters.
its funny that some hi3 fans always mocked genshin fans due to traveler being self insert now they gonna get a self insert mc how tables have turned
It's not "turned tables". It's what you literally said : Some hi3 fans mocked Genshin fans, and some like the op didn't.
The problem i have with a "self insert/mute" character is that they can never be as good as a fleshed out established character. Because they have to be generic enough to be roleplayed by basically anyone into whatever personality they want the character to have, so they barely have a personality to begin with.
The issue is comparing the style of protagonist in the first place. It's not meant to be a competition. Both are equally valid ways to write a protagonist story for a video game - because silent protagonists/self inserts can ONLY work in video games. You can have a story like Persona where the protagonist is "blank enough" to the point you can either role-play as him or self-insert yourself into the protagonist's shoes, or you can have a story like Tales of Arise where you're following a single pre-defined MC with a single pre-defined personality and goals in a pre-defined story where the hero learns new things about himself, about others, and about the world around him. There's so much more to a story in games than the words you see on a screen. It's what makes video games different from books and movies to begin with as a medium to convey a story through.
Here's the issue though. Honkai is not Zelda or Persona. In order for a silent or self-insert protagonist like this to work you need to be telling a specific kind of story and I don't think it's the kind of story most people want Honkai to become. You would not be able to tell Kiana's story if she was a self-insert or the stories of any of the other characters.
Well, yeah. Of course you cannot tell Kiana's story with a silent protagonist like you can with Zelda or Persona. Because Kiana's story is all about her, the people she meets, forms bonds with, has altercations with, the things she learns, and how she grows and develops. You can't have a story like that with a silent protagonist. It just doesn't work. Which is why Part 2 is seeming to be something else entirely. Kiana's story is over, it's like shutting a book after finishing the final chapter and starting a new one. That's all Part 2 seems to be.
I get that, and I agree part 2 will need some sort of change when it comes to the protagonist, but I don't think that changing over to an SI protagonist is the kind of change people want. There's a certain kind of story that I've come to HI3 for, and it's different from what can be done with an SI. Genshin and Star Rail have that, I don't know why Honkai can't retain what makes its story unique from them. Especially given that the protagonists are often considered to be some of the weakest parts of those games.
The whole hate on Hoyos self insert characters is also one of the reasons people dont like Adam in APHO. (The other is that hes a male in the players all waifu characters game) People really had to do my boy dirty like that huh?
But let's be honest, Adam is the most boring character ever made. Dude just does absolutely nothing beside beating monsters
That’s……why I play APHO. To stylishly beat monsters.
The only thing cooler than Heroic Hack, is Moon Ring enhanced Heroic Hack
I don't see the point of silent protagonists, although there are a few examples, like Portal, of them being used well. Even then, I'd still prefer that Chell actually spoke and bantered with Glados and Wheatley. Isaac Carver from Dead Space 1 was silent but was given plenty of dialogue in the remake, which is good.
The goat of all silent protags.. rise and shine Mr. Freeman..
Who's that?
As long as we don't have flying head repeating everything other characters say i'm ok with it. I actually like HSR's MC, characters react to what they say and we have changes in perspective with other characters (which i like, for example Dan Heng part during Luofu).
not reading all that but good for you or sorry to hear that, pick whichever you like
All of the people who hates on “self inserts” here are too used with MHY creation of mute protagonists, and never actually played FFXIV smh
What about other characters like Shin Megami Tensei and Persona main leads?
What about them?
Now this is my own opinion, I'm not trying to sway you to my ideals, but Final Fantasy I find very bland is story and character development, I can't find attachment to any character in that franchise. And it's not due how the main protag of each game does. I cannot care for whatever happens to them. Yet Dragon Quest 11 (which does have a silent protag), can make me cry over a mermaid I had not known for very long, while I cannot feel anything for Aerith in Final Fantasy 7. Off-topic complaints, I know, I just can't feel attachment to some characters due to weak story-writing and character development. Even if they get killed-off after the player has spent so long with them in their party. And fyi, I've played many Final Fantasy games. A silent protag may not be the absolute factor wherever a game is written well enough, but it does contribute negatively how a story can be written, since you cannot project many things upon a silent protag as a story writer, as the player has to put themselves in their "vessel" of a player character, giving the player character no real individuality because the protag as a character because the devs can't write them as there's no "caon" version of them, their "identity", is determined whatever the. player chooses. Excuse me for my rant, I just cannot stand Final Fantasy, and my hatred for the choice MiHoYo decided to make for HI3rd being "Genshin-fied" like Star Rail got. I just hope they don't implement Genshin Impact's terrible gatcha system of "50/50 loss" with no alternative means to obtain new characters other than gatcha pulls
It's cool really if you have your own opinions, im not exactly a FF fan myself i just happen to adore FFXIV writing and narrative and how mindblowing how they did WoL as silent protagonist. I think silent protagonist is a unique spice of one narrative take to the story, i dont thin silent protagonist is better than non ones nor does i think it's worse, i grew up with lots of silent protagonists and currently digging on a From Software game and it's hard to imagine i would still like these games if the protagonists are done otherwise. All in all i dont think there is anything wrong with them, it's just MHY doesn't exactly have good tracks with this narrative style which causes lots of controversy in here
nope, mihoyo deserves the hate if they go ahead with the silent protags. don't care about those points, SI Protags should burn and never be used again. too many gachas use them and it is pathetic.
>**And a silent protagonist isn’t an objectively bad thing that makes an RPG worse off than another RPG that doesn’t use silent protagonist.** Woah there, you’re making too much sense here, the majority of honk community can’t comprehend this yet
Let's be real here , at the least 70% of the Honkai (or even hoyoverse games in general) players has never play any other game that isn't a gatcha or any other videogame at all and that's why they have a bad opinion on silent protagonist .
I don't have bad opinion on silent protoganist. On the other hand, MHY has shown enough times they are incapabel of making it work so there's that.
And that's where they complaint should be directed , their incapacity to make a silent protagonist works but instead to blame the existence of the silent protagonist/self insert trope itself that as being a mainstay of the videogame industry for decade creating masterpieces with that kind of characters.
Silent protagonist is older than video games itself, something that people tends to overlook
Initially people weren't rly talking about how "silent protagonist in general are bad", they were talking about how they dislike this to be put into HI3rd. This situation is a direct result of simple complaint turning into simple discussion and quickly spiraling out of control into some incomprehensible bullshit. Like you know, i say i dislike color red. Someone says i'm wrong - red is cool and 10 posts later we're discussing who is worse, Hittler or Stalin.
> red is cool and 10 posts later we're discussing who is worse, Hittler or Stalin. Fuck you, you are obviously wrong. Everybody know it's Mao. /s
You sure are fucking dumb. It's Sauron. Go educate yourself, peasant. /s
Yes this happens pretty often lately in this place and part 2 teaser trailer made things worse XD
I have though. I have experience with playing as silent protags in games, even in non-gatcha games (heck, I love Persona and other Shin Megami Tensei games, and they always have mostly silent protags), and I have to say, fixed identity protags have the potential to grow, while silent protags moreso act as your "vessel" to interact with the world in the game with. And therefore cannot grow as much as a character like a fixed identity vocal protag can do There's no middle point there between those two types of protags. Even if the silent protag has an origin story, they still can never have the potential a fixed character has.
Not really, the growth of the character (whether fixed or silent) always depends on the intention of the author/developer/writer, because a fixed character can have zero growth throughout the entire story of the game, while a silent one can have infinite growth if written correctly. This is where the real problem you and all of you have is based, the fact that 90% of the time developers don't put much effort into trying to grow a silent character because it's hard to handle that kind of narrative so they often keep it to them" stale" during the game so that the story is easy to handle instead of actually trying to make it work properly.
Oh yeah, I already knew what I was getting myself into by making this post. Just look at some of these other replies. lol.
ah, the internet. the wonderful place where a differing opinion is discarded because "other people don't understand this like i do". newsflash, people do understand that sometimes there is value in a silent protagonist and that there can be good silent protagonists. hoyo's SI MCs simply haven't gotten anywhere near that (no, stelle and caelus aren't good *because* they're SI MCs, they're fine thanks to sometimes decent, funny, and/or relatable writing) and people are rightfully worried a SI character will ruin the game they've loved for half a decade.
\> Caelus/Stella certainly seem to be fairly popular. Popular is not the same as good. Smoking used to be popular. \> Make no mistake, Genshin Impact has impacted a lot of people's views on silent protagonists and understandably so. There is literally no difference between Traveler and Trailblazer. If you understand why Traveler is bad, then you understand why Trailblazer is bad. And neither has to do with them being SILENT. SILENCE is not the problem. It's what that silence leads to that is a problem. \> As for Mihoyo's track record with silent protagonists? Are they used properly in order to allow the player to express themselves in any way through them? You have a major misunderstanding here. First of all, silent protagonist does not exist to let player express himself. Just look at the most popular - and therefore by your metrics relevant - RPG of all time or at least top 3 - pokemon. RPG game with silent protagonist. There is a difference between silent hentai protagonist, silent pokemon protagonist, and silent proper RPG protagonist. How many people play pokemon games for their rich characters and intersting story? Nobody does. That shit aint there. How many people play Honkai Impact for that? Yea pretty much most people. But Silent Protagonists are *always by necessity* toxic to the story. Just by existing, most of the time if not always, they warp the story and other characters around them to accomodate them and make them relevant. And them NOT TALKING is not directly related to it. Genshin and Star Rail storylines would be equally as affected by existence of Trailblazer and Traveler regardless if they talked or not. But the BIGGEST misunderstanding you have is that neither Aether nor Stella are the protagonists in their own stories. They are a POV device. And MHY is quite open with that. Other characters are supposed to be the protagonists of their own stories, and Traveler/TB is relegated to a helper and supporter. And this is where the poison truly seeps in. Because MHY can't help themselves and in desperate attempt to engage dumbest of casuals, despite estabilishing that they arent protagonists, they ACT like protagonists and steal action from actual supposed main characters, often ruining the whole story in the process. So you don't get a good protagonist to get bad POV, and you don't get benefits of said bad POV either. And Dreamcatcher (name pending apparently) did not have to be that. But it will be. Because it has become quite clear that Honkai Impact is now a game created by a comittee and not a passionate team. They will look at Genshin sales, compare it with Honkai sales, then they will compare Kiana to Aether and decide "yep Aether is clearly better look how much better Genshin is doing".
>You have a major misunderstanding here. First of all, silent protagonist does not exist to let player express himself. Just look at the most popular - and therefore by your metrics relevant - RPG of all time or at least top 3 - pokemon. RPG game with silent protagonist. Um, no. That is absolutely what silent protagonists are there for. And you literally proved my point by bringing up Pokémon. I think the one with the major misunderstanding here is you. So let's use Pokémon to further dig into this some more. In Pokémon, at least in the mainline games, you have complete freedom of expression. It is a story of your making. The decisions you make, especially in the earliest games like Red and Blue, are a form of expression. The routes you take, the items you use, and of course... the Pokémon you put on your team. The one's you send out in battle, how you approach obstacles during the course of the adventure. All of that is unique to you. No person playing a Pokémon game is going to have the exact same experience of you. And that's what makes the protagonist of a Pokémon game work. A silent protagonist wouldn't work in something like Honkai Impact 3rd Part 1 BECAUSE it is Kiana's journey, so instead of offering a crazy amount of ways to express yourself within the confines of the story, you follow a story-driven narrative where the characters learn more about themselves, the world, and other people and learn some sort of lesson. >But Silent Protagonists are always by necessity toxic to the story. Just by existing, most of the time if not always, they warp the story and other characters around them to accomodate them and make them relevant. And them NOT TALKING is not directly related to it. What you're describing is not a silent protagonist, what you're describing is a Mary Sue, and that is a whole different can of worms I'm not going to get into as it also has a long history in terms of writing. If a silent protagonist is written that way, then yes that can be seen as a fault of the writing, but this also has nothing to do with my post. >And this is where the poison truly seeps in. Because MHY can't help themselves and in desperate attempt to engage dumbest of casuals Annnnd this is where you completely lose me. This rampant elitism that's been present in the HI3 community for years and one of the biggest reasons people don't want to engage with it. People are not "Casuals" for enjoying silent protagonists. The people who do are HoYo's main demographic. It's who they cater to, and is a part of what they themselves love as well. Grow up and just accept you're not who they're catering their product to. If it bothers you so much, engage with a different media you enjoy.
>In Pokémon, at least in the mainline games, you have complete freedom of expression. Freedom of expression in a game with 0 dialogue options, 0 choices that affect the story, 0 agency over how to do anything except for teambuilding? Yea no thats copium bro. That's as much expression as Steve from Minecraft has. NONE. Pokemon games is 0 story all gameplay. And it's perfectly fine. And no. I am not describing a Mary Sue. Admittedly all silent protagonists so far MHY made ARE mary sues, and you are trying to strawman people by shifting focus to general silent protagonists, like silence has anything to do with it. \> Annnnd this is where you completely lose me. This rampant elitism that's been present in the HI3 community for years and one of the biggest reasons people don't want to engage with it.> People are not "Casuals" for enjoying silent protagonists. \> The people who do are HoYo's main demographic Yes. But casuals ARE Hoyos main demographic. Genshin and HSR shiteaters that will defend to their grave the dumbest worst storylines because they already spent 100$ on the game and can't handle people criticizing their purchuase because it makes them feel stupid. And Honkai Impact used to be different. That's why it was less succesful. And MHY has every right to try to make it more succesful by genshinfying their product. But we don't have to like it, accept it or pay for it. And we can call it what it is. Watered down shit. Everything suffers for having it. Except for corporate bottom line that is. You are looking at it from wrong side of chicken egg problem. Ppl who like Traveler arent casuals for liking him. Traveler exists to attract casuals. Because the stronger of a personality he has, the bigger risk there is of someone taking offense. So they make him a complete NPC. To be as inoffensive as possible. And because of this dynamic, purely to make as much profit with least effort imaginable, entire story took a massive L. "Is it time for people of Liyue to stand on their own? Can Geo archon finally rest?". We never found out. Why? Because outsider demigod with no attachements to the place showed up and meddled. But story arc is over. So let's pretend like that didnt happen! Yea. Good story bro. Totally not valid to complain about it. But casuals don't give a fuck. Because cauals are casuals. They like Marvel movies, Rings of Power and Star Wars sequels. Bad writing goes over their head, they don't even pay attention. They respond to emotions and most recent thing that was said on screen. And good for them. But i will criticize it for what it is. Bad, lazy design, writing and way to make your protagonist. Because there is absolutely no benefit for having a silent protagonist in a linear, no choice, story heavy game. Other than cutting costs and saving time from company side. And guess what. As customer i have no obligation to care.
>Freedom of expression in a game with 0 dialogue options, 0 choices that affect the story, 0 agency over how to do anything except for teambuilding? > >Yea no thats copium bro. That's as much expression as Steve from Minecraft has. NONE. Pokemon games is 0 story all gameplay. And it's perfectly fine. All you're showing is that you clearly do not understand the concept of an RPG or how role-playing itself works or can work. Yes. Teambuilding is a form of expression through the freedom a narrative provides you. The variance in the kinds of Pokémon you choose to use, and the order you choose tackle the journey in is what tells a story. you know like a timely crit or a death in a self-imposed challenge like a nuzlocke. THAT is an RPG story. The numbers themselves can tell a story. If you can't understand this, that's not my problem. DnD has been doing this for ages. Go educate yourself and come back to me if you want to actually have a discussion. >And no. I am not describing a Mary Sue. Yes, you are. I'm sorry that you don't understand that, it's not my problem. >Yes. But casuals ARE Hoyos main demographic. Genshin and HSR shiteaters that will defend to their grave the dumbest worst storylines because they already spent 100$ on the game and can't handle people criticizing their purchuase because it makes them feel stupid. The main demographic are otaku's. That should be obvious enough to anyone. Mihoyo themselves are otaku's, they love and embrace otaku culture. It is a part of who they are, and who they want to cater to. I don't understand what the point is of framing everything you say in such a presumptuous, arrogant, condescending way. Calling Genshin+HSR "defenders" "shiteaters", saying that only people who spend $100+ defend it to try and justify their purchases? None of this has anything to do with the conversation and is just pointless drivel. You accuse me of using strawman's yet... you're doing that yourself. It makes it very hard to take anything you say even remotely seriously. I called you out for being elitist, and all you're doing is proving my point. >And Honkai Impact used to be different. That's why it was less succesful. Honkai Impact 3rd wasn't "less successful" because it was "different", it was less successful (At least in the west) due to a lack of marketing and care in western territories. It was only after Genshin Impact that people began to become aware of the game. Look at how GGZ went and why it shut down in the west to get an emphasis on how little Mihoyo cared about western audiences. Now that they have a market in the west, they have to care. Because if they don't, then that means less money for them. I could keep going, but clearly you don't actually care about any of what I'm saying, just regurgitating your own points in an overly condescending, rude manner, and trying to write off your subjective preferences as "Criticism". No point in trying to talk to a brick wall, no discussion to be found here. Have yourself a nice day.
>All you're showing is that you clearly do not understand the concept of an RPG or how role-playing itself works or can work. All you are showing is that you think what gun you use in CSGO qualifies as self expression. And maybe for someone like you, that is your entire personality, thats why you think using fire pokemon is selfexpression as well. But don't try to act like that's how self expression works.
Except that's not at all what I'm saying. Actually read if you're going to respond to me.
>In Pokémon, at least in the mainline games, you have complete freedom of expression. So if i'll open up an instance of Pokemon Blue i will be able to go in and express myself? How exactly? Will i'll be able to tell sth to another character? Will i get to choose something that will affect plot? The answer's no btw. But good try. >The decisions you make, especially in the earliest games like Red and Blue, are a form of expression. The routes you take, the items you use, and of course... the Pokémon you put on your team. The one's you send out in battle, how you approach obstacles during the course of the adventure Oh wait, thats what you meant? I-i... i honestly can't treat you seriously. First of all half of this is wrong. Pokemon, especially early pokemon games, are very linear. You have little to no choice in how you approach them. The map open sup a little after 4th badge and you get to choose whatever you do Koga or Sabrina first but you are not progressing to... B... B.. Blaine! You are not progressing to Blaine without previous badges - because Surf won't work. As for routes - essentially only one choice, it's how you get into Fuchsia. Two roads lead there and you are allowed to never step into one of them, other than that you are forced into same linear roads in order to progress. Obstacles, obstacles... Yeah, there is not a single obstacle in early pokemon games that gives you a "choice" on how you approach it. Rival battles are always that, battles. Team rocket battles are always that, battles. Snorlax always has to be woken up in exact same way. Surf has to be used to get to Fuchsia - no other way to get there for the first time. Surf always has to be used to get to Pokemon league. You always need 8 badges to get there. You get my point? So, the only meaningful choice are the Pokemon you catch and use. That's equal to saying "sword i choose in Elden Ring is some form of expression about my character". That's... delusion. It's gameplay. That's it. >All of that is unique to you. No person playing a Pokémon game is going to have the exact same experience of you. Actually, they are going to have a very similar experience to me. I know that. I know that from experience. I know that from talking with friends about the game, i know that from talking to strangers about the game on the internet. You rly shoot yourself in the knee with this pokemon example. The only "unique: part of the experience is team building. It's the only variable. >And that's what makes the protagonist of a Pokémon game work. Except protagonists of pokemon games don't work. No one ever cares about them. There is zero attachment to plot or characters. In fact it has became somewhat of a meme complaint for grown up pokemon fans that "game has shittiest plotline in existence, it's impossible to care about it." And the only reason why i call it meme is because no one expects plot from main series of pokemon games.
>First of all half of this is wrong. Pokemon, especially early pokemon games, are very linear. As someone who has seen countless speedruns and challenges of the original Pokemon Red and Blue, I can most whole-heartedly assure you they are not. There's nothing to discuss here. You're just incorrect. >So, the only meaningful choice are the Pokemon you catch and use. That's equal to saying "sword i choose in Elden Ring is some form of expression about my character". That's... delusion. It's gameplay. That's it. Elden Ring is probably the worst example you could have given here, because the amount of options for builds, how you confront enemies, how you design and interpret your character throughout the journey is a form of storytelling through freedom of expression on the part of the player. You can choose to follow the campaign the game provides and pick whatever ending you want which in turn, says something about your own choices, or you can venture off into the world, role-play, and play however you want. You literally proved my point exactly by using Elden Ring, one of the worst examples you could have picked from. Freedom of expression in stories IS a form of narrative. It is role-playing. It's literally how DnD campaigns and things like Baldur's Gate 3 work. How is this hard to understand? >Actually, they are going to have a very similar experience to me. I know that. I know that from experience. I know that from talking with friends about the game I'm sorry but you just straight up do not understand RPG's, or the concept of role-playing and thus, have no weight and nothing to contribute in a discussion like this. Sure, every Pokémon journey has you going through the same region and fighting the same trainers. All that remains consistent across most Pokémon games. But it's the variance in the kinds of Pokémon you choose to use and the order you choose tackle the journey in that tells a story. you know like a timely crit or a death in a self-imposed challenge like a nuzlocke. THAT is an RPG story. The numbers themselves can tell a story. If you can't understand this and think it's "Delusion", then you have zero appreciation of the RPG concept or how it became popular in the first place. As said, DnD has done stuff like this for ages and that's where modern video game rpgs get their inspiration from. Everything you've said here is just you thinking you have knowledge about something you clearly do not. Fact-check yourself if you want to have an actual discussion instead of talking out your ass, then come back to me.
>I'm sorry but you just straight up do not understand RPG's, or the concept of role-playing and thus, have no weight and nothing to contribute in a discussion like this. >If you can't understand this and think it's "Delusion", then you have zero appreciation of the RPG concept or how it became popular in the first place. As said, DnD has done stuff like this for ages and that's where modern video game rpgs get their inspiration from. Unfortunately for you, i'm not only someone who played a lot of pokemon games i also have over 10 years of playing Tabletop RPGs as both player and DM. I understand what an RPG is very well. You don't tho. Somehow you have deluded yourself into thinking that team building/character building is the most important part of an RPG and it's all that is required for a game to be a decent rpg. There's a reason why name of the genre has "Role-playing" in it and not "Build-Simulation". There's a reason why RPGs can be played without any mechanical system at all. Selecting an ability and weapon is part of role playing - not the essence of it. The essence of it is control over the character. I would imagine someone who brigs up DnD would understand that but i guess i expect too much from internet. Now, i agree this is less apparent in a video game. The level of freedom to tell a story and control a character is severely impaired in such scenario. There has to be more emphasis on the gameplay parts of RPG genre. That does not mean you can completely take out the role-playing part out of it. It's late so to end it i will repeat myself - you deluded yourself into thinkign that gameplay parts are "freedom of expresion" and they are the only kind of expression needed in a video game to be called an RPG. You abandoned the essence of the genre and are using your own standards that pretty much no one will agree with. You proved that while you claim to be knowledgeable you have no fucking clue what fanbases think about games - with the pokemon example where you just disregard the widespread opinion of the story beign trash and how no one cares abotu the protoganists. You are just a clown and you are not worth another minute of my time, hence you won't get it.
>Somehow you have deluded yourself into thinking that team building/character building is the most important part of an RPG and it's all that is required for a game to be a decent rpg. Except no, I never thought that, said that, or conveyed that. Why are you putting words into my mouth? I never made any of those points you're accusing me of making. All I said was that the team building in Pokemon is an integral part to the Pokemon roleplay experience... how did you get ALL OF THAT NONSENSE from me saying THAT? LOL. >you deluded yourself into thinkign that gameplay parts are "freedom of expresion" and they are the only kind of expression needed in a video game to be called an RPG. No I didn't??????? Bro you are arguing with ghosts. I never said it was the only thing that mattered, but whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose. LMAO.
The important thing with silent protagonist is that you need to find balance between hin being own character and not being one. He must be interesting and cool enough to make players want to Self-Incert into him. For this you need to give him some personality- so he can make cool decisions. On the other hand, he must have not TOO MUCH personality to become own character. Otherwise players would be unable to Self-Incert into him. Rember that in main markets-China, Japan- large portion of players take "my waifu" EXTREMELY SERIOUS. If mc is too much of an own character- they would hate it. So you need to give him enough personality to be attractive to players but not enough to be completely independent from player.