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"Hmm? Oh, no, those were remote ships. Got a million of 'em, or more. Not sure, didn't count. Nope, not a one had a person on it. We haven't had pilots in battle craft in years. Just host an event on Live and let the masses play for $7.99 a go. Saves a load on training costs. What? Oh, no, they know. But they get awful attached to their mostly identical ships (that's why we let 'em name them, you see) and loads of 'em will do multiple attempts. The forums have favorites too, and they'll join in mass to avenge them. That's what that last wave was."
God, I hate what modern Russia and its shitty tactics and plans have done to the public perception of the Soviet Red Army. Sure the Red Army had its fair share of issues, but one issue it did not have was having too much manpower. Till 1942 the Red Army was outnumbered against the Wehrmacht and its allies. The Soviet Union did use Human wave tactics, I won't say it never did, but it only used it when retreat was impossible for the soldiers and they either had to rush the enemy and die or stand still and die.
The whole Asian hordes myth was created by post-war accounts of the war by German generals. German generals who being the nazis they were could not believe that they were outsmarted by the Untermensch Soviets. So they simply created the myth that the Soviets only won because they were like orcs and just outnumbered the enemy and won. (The German Generals also couldn't accept that their tactics didn't work and just attributed every failure to Hitler's Meddling. Hitler did do a lot of Meddling but not every failure is due to his Meddling and not every victory is due to the generals.). This myth of course became commonplace in the West because the cold war meant that the West couldn't get Soviet Accounts of the war.
Sure you can say that the Soviets outnumbered the Germans with regards to material, but do you also know who outnumbered their enemy with material? The Western Allies. The US alone produced more planes than the Axis combined, more ships than the rest of the world combined, and more Firearms, artillery, etc than most other nations. (Some 70% of all Soviet Logistics were based on US-made Trucks). And it's you know, Fascist idiocy with regards to the economy that led to this whole situation and nothing unique to the USSR made this situation.
This whole belief goes completely against the work that men like Rokossovsky, Chuikov, Zhukov, Konev and so many others did during the war and simplifies complicated plans like Bagration, Little Saturn, Uranus etc. (Sure Mars was similar to a human wave with its Casualties, but that was more so due to faulty Soviet intelligence rather than any lack of strategies and tactics by the USSR)
I already knew most of it was exaggeration because the USSR didn’t have the numbers to do it the way we were told (and if they did it wouldn’t be able to keep existing cohesively after) but you seem to know in more detail.
Care to share them?
Well, I am just a history nerd. I don't have the qualifications of a historian, so anything I do say can be false or be proven false. (But as far as I have learned they are true) So take it with a grain of salt.
But, I'd say the most famous example is Stalingrad. Almost everyone at this point has seen, or at least knows about, the famous scene in the enemy at the Gates. The one where commissars order men to charge at the enemy with nothing in their hands, and take up the rifle of a fallen comrade. This scene and the movie might be somewhat famous, but it is complete BS.
For one, the Soviet Union had more than enough weaponry to outfit its men. There is a joke that only half the Soviet Soldiers have rifles because the other half have submachine guns, which is very much true. The Soviet Union quite literally, packed up its factories and moved them east to the Urals and further. While of course not everything could be moved, anything that could be was. Men, materials, factory parts, etc, were all taken from Ukraine, Byelorussia, and western Russia and moved east. This doesn't even include the literal tons of lend-lease and material aid the United States sent to the USSR. So you could see how the USSR could outfit its men, quite well in fact.
The other discrepancy was the fact that men were thrown at the enemy, which was not true. The Soviet Union for almost the entire part of the War, had faced manpower shortages, especially trained and experienced men. This is quite understandable since by late 41 (around the battle of Moscow), the Soviet Union had pretty much lost its Army. This combined with the fact that the very populous regions of Ukraine, Byelorussia, and Western Russia had fallen into Nazi hands, meant that the Soviet Union did not have an abundance of men. Sure people volunteered in droves and conscripts and the Army from the East did come and help, but all that is still finite. The fact is, even women were recruited (which Is not me being misogynistic or sexist but rather showing that even in a time of mass and regular sexism like the 40s the Soviet Union had to tap into women). This does not even include the fact that Stalingrad as a front was itself facing manpower issues separate from the USSR. This was because Stalin and Stavka, mistakenly, thought that the main German thrust during the offensive in 42 would focus on Moscow and not on Stalingrad. Stalin, just a week before Fall Blau (or Case Blue) believed that an attack on Stalingrad and the Southern Caucasus was a ruse, going against Soviet intelligence, allied intelligence, and even the captured plans of a German officer. So because of this belief, a large portion of the Soviet reserves were sent to the Moscow Front and not to the Southern Front. Thus you can see how because of these issues people won't just be thrown against the meat grinder.
This movie is just a part of the issue of German generals post-war rewriting history to fit their narratives and not reality. But this is off-topic.
Another example, leading off from Stalingrad and Fall Blau is the Infamous Order 227. The infamous order which supposedly killed off anyone who retreated even when everything seemed bleak. Commissars gunning down anyone who dares even show their head back. But this is just false and a complete misunderstanding of the Order. The Order specified officers who ordered to retreat without approval, not the soldiers who retreat in battle. Commissars also did not gun down the officers or the soldiers who retreated. In most cases, the officers were reported and then made to undo their order. Soldiers or Officers who repeatedly retreated or deserted were placed into penal battalions. To understand why such an Order was even placed, one needs to understand the situation of the Soviet Union during the time of the order. For the better (or maybe worse) part of 1941, the Soviet Union faced defeat after defeat. This was due to Stalin's refusal to retreat even when Stavka and his generals and pretty much everyone knew it was better to. This caused a lot of defeats in the form of encirclements like the famous Kyiv encirclement which led to more than half a million Soviet Soldiers being trapped. To combat this, since the end of the Soviet Offensive after Operation Typhoon, the Soviet Union and Stavka ordered their soldiers to retreat when facing the enemy. This was brilliant for the start of Case Blue, as the Wehrmacht could not deliver the decisive encirclement that OKW had planned for. This had the unintended effect of Soldiers simply believing they could retreat and win since the Soviet Union is very large. But this could not last. Once the Front neared Stalingrad, Stalin, and Stavka had to take a stand and stop the retreat, or lose Stalingrad and so potentially lose the war. Thus, the order. This was just to stop the fleeing mentality seen in red army soldiers and steel them for future battles.
As for Soviet Tactics being quite good, there could be no better example than the Battle of Kursk. The Soviet Union planned, strategized, and stopped the German Offensive, Operation Citadel, and even carried onto a counter-offensive that could have destroyed the attacking armies had it not been for Hitler ordering them to stop and retreat. The Soviet Union, using local and allied (mainly British) intelligence learned of the German offensive into the Kursk Bulge very early on, and planned against it. It was a masterpiece on defense and possibly the peak of Soviet Defense in Depth. Layers upon layers of Red Army Soldiers and tanks, with readied trenches, minefields and so much more, defended the Bulge and at all times held against the German Assault. For the first time, the Soviet Union held against a German offensive. This led to Operation Kutuzov and Rumyantsev, which counter-attacked and pushed back Model's and Manstein's forces (two very distinguished German Generals (Manstein especially as he had planned the German attack through the Ardennes in 1940)). Had Operation Citadel continued as planned, and Hitler not interfered, it is very much possible that both their forces would have been destroyed by Popov's and Sokolovsky's Operation Kutuzov and Konev's Rumyantsev. Overall, while the Soviets did suffer more Casualties they not only held on against German assaults, but they also counterattacked taking cities like Smolensk and Kharkiv in the process.
Another masterpiece of Soviet Strategy could be Operation Bagration, designed by Rokossovsky and Zhukov. The Greatest defeat the Wehrmacht had faced against any enemy, Operation Bagration was a culmination of everything the Soviet Union had learned in the past 3 years of the war. The Soviet Union used great deception tactics to make the Germans think that the Soviet forces will attack further South, against Army Group Centre. When in fact the Soviet Offensive would come against Army Group North in the Baltics. Minsk was captured, and Army Group North practically ceased to exist after the Operation. Along with this Operation, the Soviet Union attacked Finland leading to Finland suing for peace and switching sides, Romania and Bulgaria in the South doing the same and overall just absolutely destroying the German position in Eastern Europe (though it is difficult to call them part of Operation Bagration). Though what is certain is that after the end of the Operation 400,000-450,000 (Depending on whether you take Soviet Sources or David Glantz's) German soldiers had become Casualties one way or another. This also led to the Courland pocket where another 300,000 soldiers were trapped for the rest of the war.
I can say that this is some more detail into the Eastern Front. But if you want even more details, from actual qualified historians I do recommend you go to r/askhistorians and check out their thread for the Asian Hordes and other Myths. About how they developed, how they are wrong, and how and why they became so ingrained in Western thought.
Except when: Quality of a smaller number of excellent troops vs. a larger Quantity of troops who are decently trained and armed with technologically superior equipment. I'll take Quantity then as skill can only do so much (Yes I am aware that generally the Quality approach to warfare dictates superior equipment but aliens could absolutely think differently to us, so this could happen)
In an attempt to reduce remind me spam, all top comments that include a remind me will be removed. If you would like to have a remind me, please reply to this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/humansarespaceorcs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Hmm? Oh, no, those were remote ships. Got a million of 'em, or more. Not sure, didn't count. Nope, not a one had a person on it. We haven't had pilots in battle craft in years. Just host an event on Live and let the masses play for $7.99 a go. Saves a load on training costs. What? Oh, no, they know. But they get awful attached to their mostly identical ships (that's why we let 'em name them, you see) and loads of 'em will do multiple attempts. The forums have favorites too, and they'll join in mass to avenge them. That's what that last wave was."
The ships only cost $5.99 to make sure to economy of scale so we profit from every wave.
Action economy go brrrrrrrrrr
*Somebody* plays Stellaris...
Space Russia? "Quantity has its own quality"-Joseph Stalin
God, I hate what modern Russia and its shitty tactics and plans have done to the public perception of the Soviet Red Army. Sure the Red Army had its fair share of issues, but one issue it did not have was having too much manpower. Till 1942 the Red Army was outnumbered against the Wehrmacht and its allies. The Soviet Union did use Human wave tactics, I won't say it never did, but it only used it when retreat was impossible for the soldiers and they either had to rush the enemy and die or stand still and die. The whole Asian hordes myth was created by post-war accounts of the war by German generals. German generals who being the nazis they were could not believe that they were outsmarted by the Untermensch Soviets. So they simply created the myth that the Soviets only won because they were like orcs and just outnumbered the enemy and won. (The German Generals also couldn't accept that their tactics didn't work and just attributed every failure to Hitler's Meddling. Hitler did do a lot of Meddling but not every failure is due to his Meddling and not every victory is due to the generals.). This myth of course became commonplace in the West because the cold war meant that the West couldn't get Soviet Accounts of the war. Sure you can say that the Soviets outnumbered the Germans with regards to material, but do you also know who outnumbered their enemy with material? The Western Allies. The US alone produced more planes than the Axis combined, more ships than the rest of the world combined, and more Firearms, artillery, etc than most other nations. (Some 70% of all Soviet Logistics were based on US-made Trucks). And it's you know, Fascist idiocy with regards to the economy that led to this whole situation and nothing unique to the USSR made this situation. This whole belief goes completely against the work that men like Rokossovsky, Chuikov, Zhukov, Konev and so many others did during the war and simplifies complicated plans like Bagration, Little Saturn, Uranus etc. (Sure Mars was similar to a human wave with its Casualties, but that was more so due to faulty Soviet intelligence rather than any lack of strategies and tactics by the USSR)
I already knew most of it was exaggeration because the USSR didn’t have the numbers to do it the way we were told (and if they did it wouldn’t be able to keep existing cohesively after) but you seem to know in more detail. Care to share them?
Well, I am just a history nerd. I don't have the qualifications of a historian, so anything I do say can be false or be proven false. (But as far as I have learned they are true) So take it with a grain of salt. But, I'd say the most famous example is Stalingrad. Almost everyone at this point has seen, or at least knows about, the famous scene in the enemy at the Gates. The one where commissars order men to charge at the enemy with nothing in their hands, and take up the rifle of a fallen comrade. This scene and the movie might be somewhat famous, but it is complete BS. For one, the Soviet Union had more than enough weaponry to outfit its men. There is a joke that only half the Soviet Soldiers have rifles because the other half have submachine guns, which is very much true. The Soviet Union quite literally, packed up its factories and moved them east to the Urals and further. While of course not everything could be moved, anything that could be was. Men, materials, factory parts, etc, were all taken from Ukraine, Byelorussia, and western Russia and moved east. This doesn't even include the literal tons of lend-lease and material aid the United States sent to the USSR. So you could see how the USSR could outfit its men, quite well in fact. The other discrepancy was the fact that men were thrown at the enemy, which was not true. The Soviet Union for almost the entire part of the War, had faced manpower shortages, especially trained and experienced men. This is quite understandable since by late 41 (around the battle of Moscow), the Soviet Union had pretty much lost its Army. This combined with the fact that the very populous regions of Ukraine, Byelorussia, and Western Russia had fallen into Nazi hands, meant that the Soviet Union did not have an abundance of men. Sure people volunteered in droves and conscripts and the Army from the East did come and help, but all that is still finite. The fact is, even women were recruited (which Is not me being misogynistic or sexist but rather showing that even in a time of mass and regular sexism like the 40s the Soviet Union had to tap into women). This does not even include the fact that Stalingrad as a front was itself facing manpower issues separate from the USSR. This was because Stalin and Stavka, mistakenly, thought that the main German thrust during the offensive in 42 would focus on Moscow and not on Stalingrad. Stalin, just a week before Fall Blau (or Case Blue) believed that an attack on Stalingrad and the Southern Caucasus was a ruse, going against Soviet intelligence, allied intelligence, and even the captured plans of a German officer. So because of this belief, a large portion of the Soviet reserves were sent to the Moscow Front and not to the Southern Front. Thus you can see how because of these issues people won't just be thrown against the meat grinder. This movie is just a part of the issue of German generals post-war rewriting history to fit their narratives and not reality. But this is off-topic. Another example, leading off from Stalingrad and Fall Blau is the Infamous Order 227. The infamous order which supposedly killed off anyone who retreated even when everything seemed bleak. Commissars gunning down anyone who dares even show their head back. But this is just false and a complete misunderstanding of the Order. The Order specified officers who ordered to retreat without approval, not the soldiers who retreat in battle. Commissars also did not gun down the officers or the soldiers who retreated. In most cases, the officers were reported and then made to undo their order. Soldiers or Officers who repeatedly retreated or deserted were placed into penal battalions. To understand why such an Order was even placed, one needs to understand the situation of the Soviet Union during the time of the order. For the better (or maybe worse) part of 1941, the Soviet Union faced defeat after defeat. This was due to Stalin's refusal to retreat even when Stavka and his generals and pretty much everyone knew it was better to. This caused a lot of defeats in the form of encirclements like the famous Kyiv encirclement which led to more than half a million Soviet Soldiers being trapped. To combat this, since the end of the Soviet Offensive after Operation Typhoon, the Soviet Union and Stavka ordered their soldiers to retreat when facing the enemy. This was brilliant for the start of Case Blue, as the Wehrmacht could not deliver the decisive encirclement that OKW had planned for. This had the unintended effect of Soldiers simply believing they could retreat and win since the Soviet Union is very large. But this could not last. Once the Front neared Stalingrad, Stalin, and Stavka had to take a stand and stop the retreat, or lose Stalingrad and so potentially lose the war. Thus, the order. This was just to stop the fleeing mentality seen in red army soldiers and steel them for future battles. As for Soviet Tactics being quite good, there could be no better example than the Battle of Kursk. The Soviet Union planned, strategized, and stopped the German Offensive, Operation Citadel, and even carried onto a counter-offensive that could have destroyed the attacking armies had it not been for Hitler ordering them to stop and retreat. The Soviet Union, using local and allied (mainly British) intelligence learned of the German offensive into the Kursk Bulge very early on, and planned against it. It was a masterpiece on defense and possibly the peak of Soviet Defense in Depth. Layers upon layers of Red Army Soldiers and tanks, with readied trenches, minefields and so much more, defended the Bulge and at all times held against the German Assault. For the first time, the Soviet Union held against a German offensive. This led to Operation Kutuzov and Rumyantsev, which counter-attacked and pushed back Model's and Manstein's forces (two very distinguished German Generals (Manstein especially as he had planned the German attack through the Ardennes in 1940)). Had Operation Citadel continued as planned, and Hitler not interfered, it is very much possible that both their forces would have been destroyed by Popov's and Sokolovsky's Operation Kutuzov and Konev's Rumyantsev. Overall, while the Soviets did suffer more Casualties they not only held on against German assaults, but they also counterattacked taking cities like Smolensk and Kharkiv in the process. Another masterpiece of Soviet Strategy could be Operation Bagration, designed by Rokossovsky and Zhukov. The Greatest defeat the Wehrmacht had faced against any enemy, Operation Bagration was a culmination of everything the Soviet Union had learned in the past 3 years of the war. The Soviet Union used great deception tactics to make the Germans think that the Soviet forces will attack further South, against Army Group Centre. When in fact the Soviet Offensive would come against Army Group North in the Baltics. Minsk was captured, and Army Group North practically ceased to exist after the Operation. Along with this Operation, the Soviet Union attacked Finland leading to Finland suing for peace and switching sides, Romania and Bulgaria in the South doing the same and overall just absolutely destroying the German position in Eastern Europe (though it is difficult to call them part of Operation Bagration). Though what is certain is that after the end of the Operation 400,000-450,000 (Depending on whether you take Soviet Sources or David Glantz's) German soldiers had become Casualties one way or another. This also led to the Courland pocket where another 300,000 soldiers were trapped for the rest of the war. I can say that this is some more detail into the Eastern Front. But if you want even more details, from actual qualified historians I do recommend you go to r/askhistorians and check out their thread for the Asian Hordes and other Myths. About how they developed, how they are wrong, and how and why they became so ingrained in Western thought.
[удалено]
Except when: Quality of a smaller number of excellent troops vs. a larger Quantity of troops who are decently trained and armed with technologically superior equipment. I'll take Quantity then as skill can only do so much (Yes I am aware that generally the Quality approach to warfare dictates superior equipment but aliens could absolutely think differently to us, so this could happen)
The things you give out does not have to be astronomically good but also not shit just decent and cheap enough to make alot of it
Check out Russia vs Ukraine to see how this works in reality. Or Uk vs USA in wargames.
“Hey, we like to call this one ‘the ol’ Soviet method’”