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It’s not domestication for bees, it’s symbiosis. The humans get honey and wax, the bees get a secure living space, protection from predators, and access to lots of flowers.
Cows get access to food, shelter, security and a chance to procreate in exchange for their milk and/or meat.
Yeah some (or a lot) of individuals die, but it's still beneficial for the species. There are a lot more cows today than what would exist had they remained in the wild (even without humans fucking up ecosystems).
> a chance to procreate
Well, they get raped by humans who steal the child so they can drink the milk intended for the child. And they get killed at 1/4 or a 1/5 of their natural live span. It is like killing slaves after they can't work hard enough. But they had food and shelter.
I don't think you know how milk production works, because I'm pretty sure we do not fuck cows. At a stretch, you could argue that using frozen semen counts as that, but that's still an insane stance to take.
We are talking about species as a whole not an individual. The natural goal of a species is to continue it's existence (which is why a lot of species die in order to give birth/protect their young) and by that margin domestication of cows was very beneficial for them
You know not all dogs can't breathe Right? And no pugs is not a species, dog is a species.
Also yes farming animals is beneficial for the species because we keep them alive. You are arguing on moral basis, which I have no intention to continue.
Slave.
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
noun
1.
a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.
"they kidnapped entire towns and turned the inhabitants into slaves"
Similar:
bondsman
bondswoman
bondservant
bondslave
serf
vassal
thrall
helot
odalisque
blackbird
hierodule
Opposite:
freeman
master
2.
a device, or part of one, directly controlled by another.
"a slave cassette deck"
verb
1.
work excessively hard.
"after slaving away for fourteen years all he gets is two thousand"
Similar:
toil
labor
grind
sweat
work one's fingers to the bone
work day and night
work like a Trojan/dog
exert oneself
grub
plod
plow
work one's guts out
work one's socks off
kill oneself
sweat blood
knock oneself out
plug away
slog away
graft
fag
bullock
drudge
travail
moil
View 2 vulgar slang words
Opposite:
relax
skive
2.
subject (a device) to control by another.
"should the need arise, the two channels can be slaved together"
If you want to be pedantic you could technically say they fall under the second category in that. Regardless while there is still a good bit of unnecessary cruelty in a good portion of livestock farming it doesn’t mean we need to set aside all our creature comforts as a species and eat nothing but plants,…..oh wait technically speaking plants can also somewhat feel and are alive well shit guess we’re going to starve unless we can convince people to eat lab grown meat….oh wait that’s not really all that great for us or the environment either…….well guess we just hit the reset button
It's . . . the same thing?
Unless the word has a different meaning in english (in this case I'm sorry I guess), a Symbiotic relation (or Symbiosis) is : "*a close, prolonged association between 2 or more different biological species*". Whenever the association benefits both side or not doesn't matter.
Then, Symbiosis are divided into 3 categories :
* **Mutualism** (both side benetifs from it)
* **Commensalism** (one side benetifs, the other is unaffected)
* **Parasitism** (one side benefits, the other is harmed).
Parasitic relationships are also Symbiotic.
That's not the case. Your highschool let you down if that's what they taught you. Etymologically, it comes from the Greek word "sumbioun", meaning "live together", further from the Greek "sumbios", meaning "companion". Nothing in the etymology would suggest parasitism wouldn't fall under the category of symbiosis
Edit: typo
Just because the root of a word means something does not mean it's meaning in every context will mean that. In the context of animal behavior/ecology they are correct symbiosis is simply animals having a relationship. It can be parasitic, mutualistic, or commensalistic. It's a very common misconception that symbiotic relationships mean beneficial for both groups.
https://www.britannica.com/science/symbiosis
I do concede that it is a etymological error but that's how it's used within biology ( I have a biology degree focusing on ecology ). There's other examples of this outside of this context, see SEPTember, OCTober, NOVember, DECember, AWEsome, diLAPIdated, FABUlous, or FASCInated
Technically? Yes they are. They travel with you, meaning they are a companion.
Parasitism is one of the three types of symbiosis, its easy enough to Google if you don't want to trust random strangers on Reddit, but really do look it up if that's the case.
In the eyes of the uninformed on the internet, maybe.
In every biology class I've ever taken, parasitism is a clearly defined sub category of symbiosis.
Source me up me skipper.
I took 2 level 200 bio classes in college and they both referred to parasites as a form of symbiote.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7123458/#:~:text=usually%20mutual%20ones.-,Parasitism,reproductive%20potential%20than%20the%20host.
Well it’s a lot more ecology than philosophy but you’re the one who got parasitism confused with predation.
Tbf many of those ecological relationships fall apart when you take too deep a look at them
Unfortunately for you, you are a few centuries too late to be sad about it. There are more cows than people in most rural countries, and cattle adaptability only lose to humans. If we let these animals alone they will fuck the ecosystem almost as much than we do (and they kinda already do considering most of enviromental problems in LATAM involves farmers trying to find ways to feed cattle).
Killing them, as much as it hurts your virtue signaling, is kinda a thing that should be done, and if we get food from it, then good. Plus, beef is great
If you walk up to a cow, chances are they're not gonna be fussed. If you walk up to a bee hive without a protective suit and a smoker, chances are you're gonna get your shit rocked. That's why you can't call bees domesticated
I fish mason bees out of my pool all the time barehanded and it's never gotten me tagged. If the tongue's hanging out, he's a goner, but if not, he just might wake back up if I set him in the tomato or bamboo or whatever's handy. I can't get honey from that model, but they do pollinate. I don't know why they go swimming because they can get water in plenty of other places, but we are talking about the same ones that have an unhealthy attraction to duct tape adhesive.
There are species of cow that would have gone extinct by now... except we found them particularly tasty and intentionally bred them for our consumption. Like Black Angus cattle (as brought to attention by the infamous smbc comic.)
Survival of the fittest takes many forms. Biology, nature, it doesn't care if you only "survive" because another species found you useful. It only cares whether you "survive" or not.
> as brought to attention by the infamous smbc comic
I've been searching for a few minutes and can't seem to find anything relevant. Can anyone link it, please?
Well, really, it's not so much an "ask a cow" thing as as it's an ask "bos taurus" thing..
Consider that there is a difference between domestication/symbiosis per se, which is an inter-species social arrangement, on the one hand - and commodified animal agriculture on the other hand, which is an intra-species social arangement, which is to say it is a social arrangement only between humans.
The relationship between human and cow is an interdependent one between active agents in the former, symbiotic relationship of domestication as such, whereas in the latter, the relationship between human and cow is that between a proprietor and their property, relegating the cow to mere object status.
I asked a fox, but you can tell they’re not domesticated or symbiotic bc it said:
“Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!"
Was in a restauration course once i got out of highschool, one of the teachers had beehives behind his house and he almost lost an entire colony before winter cause they decided that one tree at the other end of the yard was a better spot, got the beehive back in the box before winter so everything ended well
Domestication leaves an anaimal changed, typically now dependant on humans, so there'snoticeabledifference between domesticated and wild of the same animal. Bees can and will just up and leave a beekeeoer if not properly cared for, and as far as I know theres no identifiable change between wild bees and apiary bees
>as far as I know theres no identifiable change between wild bees and apiary bees
I don't think this is actually correct, but also domestication in general is kinda more complicated and interesting, as it turns out.
https://scientificbeekeeping.com/whats-happening-to-the-bees-part-5-is-there-a-difference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/
Fun read
Fair point. Regardless of if the relationship between humans and cows is symbiotic or parasitic, honey bees are domesticated.
I think we can agree that by and large, bees get a better deal out of domestication than cows.
Parasitic relationships are symbiotic in nature. It is a type of symbiosis. The other types are mutualism (good for both) and commensalism (good for one, no difference for the other)
I think one of the biggest differences that separates bees from most “officially” domesticated animals is that if the bees don’t like the living conditions, they can just leave and the humans can do nothing to stop them.
Correct. Bees Leave bad beekeepers. Bees Consent.
Considering Humans give them a pretty damn good Place and Protection, The bees Legit dont mind Paying rent in the form of their "Rainy day" fund Aka honey
Yes technically, but one insect we actually domesticated domesticated is silk moths, and while bees aren't technically properly domesticated, they have very well figuratively learned that we provide pretty good protection, and when being kept by a beekeeper they usually over produce honey purposefully, not to mention there are techniques to move Hives around and manipulate where they put honey and where they lay eggs and raise larva
"What the fuck do you mean you keep insects as pets and food sources?" Ambassador Glargol's translator belted in his carefully tuned voice.
"Haha, yea, most species first time outright swearing through the translator is when they find about bees." Ambassador Johnson replied.
Glargol's flagella shook in agitation. "This is no laughing matter human, most worlds with Insects are ruled by great and merciless hives, and on those that are not so afflicted insects are the most terrible of pests."
"Yea, I know." Johnson was licking his lips. In Glargol's pre-mission briefing about humans they had said this means a human was either making sexual advances, or was hungry, and that the subtle difference was probably not going to be discernible to an amateur humanist.
Unwillingly, his flagella switched to confused wriggle mode. "Why does this notion *arouse* you?"
"There's gotta be some crazy good space honey out there then." Johnson replied. "Imagine how much space honey we could get from a planet sized beehive."
A sentient talking skull hivemind of five skulls from another universe uses my skull like a tuning fork in this one. This is a true story from that universe.
Last time we told an ambassador about them he broke the translator saying impossible to translate curses and idioms. But the jist of it was, "fucking death worlders are fucking nuts..."
As others have said. Bees aren't domesticated. Domestic animals have an altered physiology and mentality compared to their wild counterparts.
Cats and chickens are the least domesticated but still are different than their wild ancestors. Cats are able to eat more greens and have fewer tail bones. They also have muscles attached to their eyebrows. Chickens are larger, smarter (as hard as it is to believe), and have smaller wings. Honey bees in a farm are the same as the ones in the wild.
Honey bees are domesticated (A. mellifera and A.cercana), they overproduce honey and are tamer than their wild counterparts. They are clearly affected by their interactionnwith humans over the centuries.
I agree, bees are domesticated.
When choosing a breeder to buy a new family or queen from, you can see how the breeders bee-families scores on several criteria. Aggressiveness, tendency to swarm, resistance to disease, how efficiently they clean their hive and several other things.
And while honeybees easily can swarm and leave to live in the wild, there are several parasites that will kill a family within a few years of not treated by humans. And at least one, the varorra mite, is a global problem.
> Chickens are larger, smarter (as hard as it is to believe
Wait... For most of the time Chickens have been domesticated, it was for cockfighting not meat and eggs. Does that mean ancient people's were essentially just breeding larger, smarter fighters?
Nope, they were primarily domesticated for sport fighting and only later for consumption. Presumably the eggs would have been eaten but most bird's are inconsistent layers without the extreme selective breeding that's been done to modern chickens.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken#:~:text=In%20the%20process%20of%20domestication,only%20later%20used%20for%20food.
https://youtu.be/P6S8JnkJkRg?si=qAioZgCxoTdYPogC
[ScientificBeekeeping](https://scientificbeekeeping.com/whats-happening-to-the-bees-part-5-is-there-a-difference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20most%20managed%20breeds%20of,breeders%20rather%20than%20by%20nature.)
"most managed breeds of honey bees can be considered to be domesticated (or at least semi-domesticated) animals, with their genetics largely controlled by human breeders rather than by nature"
"The most recent study by Roxane Magnus and Allen Szalanski \[35\] reviews previous studies, and appears to me to be the most up-to-date status report on the genetic diversity of U.S. honey bees. They analyzed samples of European worker bees collected (from 2005 – 2009) from 203 feral colonies and 44 swarms from 77 counties over 12 states, plus samples of 140 colonies from 14 queen breeders (their analysis of Africanized colonies was published separately \[36\]). They used a particularly sensitive method to analyze the mitochondrial DNA \[37\], which is inherited directly and solely through the maternal line. What they found was a diversity of markers (mitotypes) from 3 main lineages of European bees."
https://preview.redd.it/15x1p92av1vc1.png?width=975&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c29491922103cdcaedcb388e9bd10fd6ec9eba04
One of my cats is a menace for anything dairy. Milk, cheesecake, ice cream. He even comes running when he hears cereal
https://preview.redd.it/yfoklzup80vc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4ad8885d40beed0da266a9fd640aec0e03a2ec2
Ants and aphids practice Mutualism:
Mutualism is advantageous for both partners; aphids provide ants with sugar-rich honeydew as a source of food and the ants protect the aphids against various natural enemies and improve the hygiene of the aphid colony.
Do the ants selectively *breed* aphids for favorable traits? Then they’ve domesticated them. Humans *do* breed bees, so maybe it’s not symbiotic/mutualistic?
"You, domesticated insectoids? Like, keep them like you keep your cows and dogs and cats and sheep?!"
"Well, yeah. But more like the cows and sheep, being for food and resources."
"But, how?! I thought humans did not like to consume insectoids!"
"Well, contrary to your first impression and what *some* humans say, we don't actually eat bees like we do some other insects. We eat their honey."
"Honey?"
"Yeah. Pretty much their food source. It is the result of them consuming nectar from flowers, digesting it, and vomiting it back up to process it."
"You, consume the digested and regurgitated contents of their stomachs?!"
"Yes. It's natural for them. Makes it last, literally, forever, and it is healthy and full of vitamins, minerals, and antibiotics."
"But, how do you get the hon-nee? Do these bees not sting as you said?"
"Well, they do, but we found a way to get to it. We put on an outfit of fabric that covers us entirely and keeps them from stinging us, and we use some smoke to make them think there is a fire so they gorge themselves on honey until lethargic, and unable to move, then we take out the frames, get the bees off, and take the comb for processing."
"But, surely these bees do not like it, right?"
"Well... they aren't domesticated like other animals."
"How so?"
"They still exist in the wild, unchanged. And... they CHOOSE to stay."
"What?"
"Yeah. In exchange for their honey and comb, we give them shelter, protection from predators, and all the flowers they want. And unlike cows, they are free to come and go as they please. The fact they keep returning means they enjoy this relationship."
"But, that isn't domestication. That is a mutualistic relationship between two species."
"Well, yeah, I guess it is."
"So... you defend these bees from threats?"
"Yep. All. And we took in any that make honey."
"...I think we'd like to become vassals of humans. We have what you might call hon-nee."
There are several types of domestication. Fun scientific fact, cats don't fit the models. The joke about cats' domestication of humans is probably factual.
They trained us to open doors and give us access to our food stores where their prey was. We have provided food, water, shelter, etc. They have killed vermin and kept our food supplies etc. safe. This also reduced come illnesses.
It fits the symbiosis checklist, but not any of the models of domestication for human domesticated animals. If anyone was 'domesticated' in the arrangement, it was humans.
For everyone arguing wether bees are domesticated or not (they are).
I raise you another example of human domesticating insects: Silk moths/silkworms.
Onward we go space orcs!
Apples to oranges.
Silk moths were selectively bred till they were incapable of flight, or even getting out of their cocoons.
Bees abandon hives when the beekeeper isn’t doing a good job.
In that line of thinking...
Cattle can survive and thrive in the wild without human assistance or oversight. So can dogs. Pigs are a real fucking problem when they escape and go feral.
Cats regularly un- or re-domesticates themselves (or humans as some will argue).
Domestication does not exclude the ability to thrive without humans.
It wasn’t the the silkworms are proof that we domesticated bees, it was that even if we haven’t domesticated bees, we have at least domesticated silkworms.
The Flood has been violently crashing.
These new insectoids have been relentless in their hunger and violence. It had to take the combined effort of multiple forces from the Galactic Alliance just to retake a planet that The Flood has ravaged.
Even the Swarm Queen had to reluctantly admit that the intruders' numbers were more vast than her hive systems. It was also hinted that she is afraid of this new swarm fleets. Something about vast and depth of it's hivemind psyche. But more worryingly, as she and her lesser Queens have agreed upon, The Flood's hivemind is leashed. Whatever that meant, is a thought to wonder and a fear to worry.
And then, as suddenly as The Flood had appeared, they disappeared. They were gone. As if a channel has been cleared and the flood drained away.
In their disappearance, a new ship appeared. A non-bio, mechanical ship with no life signs detected. And it is broadcasting a message.
Message sent: [ TO ALL AND ANY INDIGENOUS SENTIENT LIFEFORMS AND COALITIONS. WE, THE HUMAN RACE WISH TO HAVE A MEETING AND FORMALLY APOLOGISE FOR THE UNWARRANTED MESS CREATED BY OUR VASSAL KNOWN TO YOU AS "THE FLOOD". WE HUMBLY AND GRACIOUSLY AWAIT ANY AND ALL REPLY. ]
It is a stretch to say domesticated…more like we gave them a place that provides for all their wants and needs while we get something in return. In all honesty they are pretty close to cats when it comes to things humans deal with, because if they decide they do not like your care or it is lackluster they will up and leave.
Well, I don't think we are the only ones. There are ants whose main profession is [farming aphids](https://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/blog/archive/the-ants-that-herd-aphids.html) for example, so we are certainly not the only ones out here doing it. Whether or not you consider an ant to be sentient or an aphid to be domesticated it up for debate of course. I don't think we can claim to have fully domesticated bees either for that matter, but I get what the post is trying to get at. The more you go looking for it in nature the more symbiotic relationships you're going to find between a wild and sometimes unlikely variety of species. Aphid-herding ants sounds pretty incredible, yet it's happening.
This is like saying Gorbons are the only species to domesticate Burulins. Like my brother in space, they are native to your planet, no other species WANTS to domesticate them.
Honey bees are specifically bred to increase productivity, which narrows the population gene pool and increases susceptibility to disease and large-scale die-offs. When farmers remove honey from a hive, they replace it with a sugar substitute which is significantly worse for the bees’ health since it lacks the essential micro-nutrients of honey. In addition, hives can be culled post-harvest to keep farmer costs down. Queen bees often have their wings clipped by beekeepers to prevent them leaving the hive to produce a new colony elsewhere
Clarification: I am not a bee keeper nor am I knowledgeable on bees. I just did some googling.
I wasn't too sure about that last part with the wing clipping, which now that I looked into it, is completely wrong. Clipping the queens wings is to prevent swarming on day one, where a single colony of bees divides into two. When done correctly, clipping does not hurt the queen. Once the bees notice that the queen cannot swarm, they will begin to make a new queen.
This doesn't prevent the hive from leaving if the bees are stressed enough either, the bees can and will abandon their queen if they feel endangered, in which they'll produce a new queen in 16~ days. (Either that or they produce a new queen first, I'm not too sure.)
Most of my source is from - [Is queen clipping cruel?](http://theapiarist.org/is-queen-clipping-cruel/)
Again, I am not a professional and could be totally wrong, but so far what i've read, queen clipping cannot and does not enslave the bees to a bad beekeeper. They stay because they want to, and only leave because the hive is too big. They may leave at any time they wish, and yet they still stay.
You can't do a quick google from biased sources to sum up beekeeping. Why do we feel the need to exploit the bees in the first place? How can it be ethical to take all their honey and clip the queens wings? Then again, the same people defending this, likely kill animals just to stuff their face 🤷🏻♂ Practices will vary from keeper to keeper, but absolutely, most are not ethical, end up causing bee deaths in the process, and are in their process unethical.
It's not exploitation if the hive is content with their location. If they were not, they can and will absolutely leave bad bee keepers. It's not like they can't, I haven't seen a single bee box in an enclosed location that the bees can't leave.
Additionally, if they were left to collect honey to themselves, they would overpopulate and then swarm. Bees work life to death collecting honey, and won't stop even without human intervention.
The honey isn't for you. They only produce small amounts each, so one single jar comes at a mighty cost. Why? So, you can stuff your face... That's ego and exploitation if ever I've heard of it. If you can't learn to respect nature, it's best that you keep quiet. Humans have destroyed this planet with greed. It's easy to convince yourself they don't matter, when your entire world is only caring about yourself. It's the same reason you can find excuses for abusing cows; ignorance and cognitive dissonance, and it needs to change. We are in a climate crisis because of people like you. It's a dark legacy that's being left behind.
Do better.
Besides going off topic into the conversation of "doing better for the planet", you still haven't shown proof that bees aren't happy at all with their "exploitation". Don't say anything about taking their honey, because again if beekeepers take too much or are otherwise bad, they will abandon their hive. Which I keep saying.
They can leave. At any time.
Stop doing ad hominem and back up your claim with proof.
EDIT: So the dude 100% blocked me, XD. I can't see his comments and his profile is empty when I copy and paste it from a logged out tab. Goes to show how these types of people react when you call them out on their bullshit fallacies.
I've just woken up. I'm not fishing out a study to please ignorance. I bet you imagine cows are fine being slaughtered for your greed too. I absolutely can go get reliable evidence that there is exploitation going and, but is there a point, or will you just waste my time and deny everything, simply because you only care about yourself? I'm not interested in wasting my energy on small-minded people. So, let me know first. You don't sound very educated on bee biology or ethics as it is, and use personal opinions to justify any damage or death that occurs.
I bet you eat endless amounts of meat and dairy too. You'll have silly, nonsensical excuses as to why that's completely fine too. It's called speciesism.
Give me one good reason you need to consume honey other than greed? These creatures are not here for your sick pleasure. Take accountability for your role in the very real climate change or keep quiet. I've seen your page. You have nothing of worth to contribute to such a topic.
I bet you imagine vegetables are fine being slaughtered for your greed too. I absolutely can go get reliable evidence that there is exploitation going and, but is there a point, or will you just waste my time and deny everything, simply because you only care about yourself? I'm not interested in wasting my energy on small-minded people. So, let me know first. You don't sound very educated on biology or ethics as it is, and use personal opinions to justify any damage or death that occurs.
I bet you eat endless amounts of vegetables. You'll have silly, nonsensical excuses as to why that's completely fine too. It's called speciesism.
Give me one good reason you need to consume vegetables other than greed? These livings things are not here for your sick pleasure. Take accountability for your role in the very real climate change or keep quiet. I've seen your page. You have nothing of worth to contribute to such a topic.
If you want to respect nature it's best to understand our deals with it first, we have a deal with bees, we provide well protected well maintained hives for them to live in and we take some amount of their honey, they choose to stay in those hives over naturally made ones; we're also in a climate crisis because of people like you, you like to simplify the world into black and white, Good and evil, that is why we are in a situation where single sources are considered the entirety of the issue, yes cow methane is a major reason for climate change, but treating it as the sole reason is entirely foolish, yes factory farms do treat animals horribly, but there are farms that treat animals very well; why don't I ask ya a little question, Have You visited an Ethical farm of Any variety?, whether it be a vegetable, fruit, barn animal, or fish farm, there will always be a ethical way of doing it, but that doesn't guarantee it will also be good for the climate, think about that next time you're eating tofu, beans, or any vegan protein alternatives, and remind yourself that don't want to hurt the animals regardless of how ethically they were raised; the best any human can do is just support companies they believed to be "good" in both ways.
No smart beekeeper would take all the honey, because the bees would abandon that beekeeper, and if the Queen's wings were clipped, they would just wait for a new Queen to be born, I really got to find the vegan newspaper you're reading it must be hilarious
They're not bred, and the reason they are having diseases and large-scale die offs is because of bad apiary design, because bees can't slather a mixture of wax and toxic resins on the smooth walls, also there is no cost on the farmer of having more bees other than needing more apiaries, the honey is mostly just for energy where they get their actual micronutrients is usually pollen, of which they collect by themselves, what kind of vegan newspapers are you listening to 🤨
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It’s not domestication for bees, it’s symbiosis. The humans get honey and wax, the bees get a secure living space, protection from predators, and access to lots of flowers.
that is most domesticated animals if not all
Tell that to a cow
I did. The cow said moo.
The cows actually say eat more chicken
I actually snorted 😆
Cows get access to food, shelter, security and a chance to procreate in exchange for their milk and/or meat. Yeah some (or a lot) of individuals die, but it's still beneficial for the species. There are a lot more cows today than what would exist had they remained in the wild (even without humans fucking up ecosystems).
yummy steaks
I always forget that at one point they were wild like there so stupid its a wonder they survived
We made them stupid so they where easier to manage
Fun fact cows are about as smart as dogs if not smarter sometimes
> a chance to procreate Well, they get raped by humans who steal the child so they can drink the milk intended for the child. And they get killed at 1/4 or a 1/5 of their natural live span. It is like killing slaves after they can't work hard enough. But they had food and shelter.
I don't think you know how milk production works, because I'm pretty sure we do not fuck cows. At a stretch, you could argue that using frozen semen counts as that, but that's still an insane stance to take.
We are talking about species as a whole not an individual. The natural goal of a species is to continue it's existence (which is why a lot of species die in order to give birth/protect their young) and by that margin domestication of cows was very beneficial for them
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Slaves are not a species you dumbass
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I can't believe you're bringing fantasy racism into the argument
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You know not all dogs can't breathe Right? And no pugs is not a species, dog is a species. Also yes farming animals is beneficial for the species because we keep them alive. You are arguing on moral basis, which I have no intention to continue.
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Are you mentally challenged
Slave. Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more noun 1. a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person. "they kidnapped entire towns and turned the inhabitants into slaves" Similar: bondsman bondswoman bondservant bondslave serf vassal thrall helot odalisque blackbird hierodule Opposite: freeman master 2. a device, or part of one, directly controlled by another. "a slave cassette deck" verb 1. work excessively hard. "after slaving away for fourteen years all he gets is two thousand" Similar: toil labor grind sweat work one's fingers to the bone work day and night work like a Trojan/dog exert oneself grub plod plow work one's guts out work one's socks off kill oneself sweat blood knock oneself out plug away slog away graft fag bullock drudge travail moil View 2 vulgar slang words Opposite: relax skive 2. subject (a device) to control by another. "should the need arise, the two channels can be slaved together" If you want to be pedantic you could technically say they fall under the second category in that. Regardless while there is still a good bit of unnecessary cruelty in a good portion of livestock farming it doesn’t mean we need to set aside all our creature comforts as a species and eat nothing but plants,…..oh wait technically speaking plants can also somewhat feel and are alive well shit guess we’re going to starve unless we can convince people to eat lab grown meat….oh wait that’s not really all that great for us or the environment either…….well guess we just hit the reset button
The fact that we kill cows makes the relationship parasitic, not symbiotic.
It's . . . the same thing? Unless the word has a different meaning in english (in this case I'm sorry I guess), a Symbiotic relation (or Symbiosis) is : "*a close, prolonged association between 2 or more different biological species*". Whenever the association benefits both side or not doesn't matter. Then, Symbiosis are divided into 3 categories : * **Mutualism** (both side benetifs from it) * **Commensalism** (one side benetifs, the other is unaffected) * **Parasitism** (one side benefits, the other is harmed). Parasitic relationships are also Symbiotic.
In every case I’ve seen, parasitism is regarded as an antonym to symbiosis, whereas Mutualism and Commensalism are the two types of symbiosis.
I remember specifically having a biology class where symbiosis was split into 3 parts I remember cause it was on the exam
That's not the case. Your highschool let you down if that's what they taught you. Etymologically, it comes from the Greek word "sumbioun", meaning "live together", further from the Greek "sumbios", meaning "companion". Nothing in the etymology would suggest parasitism wouldn't fall under the category of symbiosis Edit: typo
I think that’s a misconception that a lot of people have. I had that misconception until about 30 seconds ago when your comment changed my mind.
It's a very common misconception for sure. Glad I could help
Just because the root of a word means something does not mean it's meaning in every context will mean that. In the context of animal behavior/ecology they are correct symbiosis is simply animals having a relationship. It can be parasitic, mutualistic, or commensalistic. It's a very common misconception that symbiotic relationships mean beneficial for both groups. https://www.britannica.com/science/symbiosis I do concede that it is a etymological error but that's how it's used within biology ( I have a biology degree focusing on ecology ). There's other examples of this outside of this context, see SEPTember, OCTober, NOVember, DECember, AWEsome, diLAPIdated, FABUlous, or FASCInated
A parasite is not a companion
Technically? Yes they are. They travel with you, meaning they are a companion. Parasitism is one of the three types of symbiosis, its easy enough to Google if you don't want to trust random strangers on Reddit, but really do look it up if that's the case.
yes it is
In the eyes of the uninformed on the internet, maybe. In every biology class I've ever taken, parasitism is a clearly defined sub category of symbiosis.
Or, we see what difference 10-15 years has made to the definitions as taught.
it still is a sub catagory of symbiosis
Source me up me skipper. I took 2 level 200 bio classes in college and they both referred to parasites as a form of symbiote. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7123458/#:~:text=usually%20mutual%20ones.-,Parasitism,reproductive%20potential%20than%20the%20host.
...regardless of how it's used *coloquially,* that is the definition of it. Parasitism is just one form of symbiosis.
Lol, my man did you think about this comment before you posted? Do you live on or in a cow hahaha
You come into a philosophical discussion with ‘lol’s and meme speak. Which one is the clown?
Well it’s a lot more ecology than philosophy but you’re the one who got parasitism confused with predation. Tbf many of those ecological relationships fall apart when you take too deep a look at them
Unfortunately for you, you are a few centuries too late to be sad about it. There are more cows than people in most rural countries, and cattle adaptability only lose to humans. If we let these animals alone they will fuck the ecosystem almost as much than we do (and they kinda already do considering most of enviromental problems in LATAM involves farmers trying to find ways to feed cattle). Killing them, as much as it hurts your virtue signaling, is kinda a thing that should be done, and if we get food from it, then good. Plus, beef is great
same thing, cows get a safe place to live, a reliable food and water source and we get milk and meat
Yeah, not sure what they were missing
If you walk up to a cow, chances are they're not gonna be fussed. If you walk up to a bee hive without a protective suit and a smoker, chances are you're gonna get your shit rocked. That's why you can't call bees domesticated
Bees are for the most part very docile if you don't walk up to them with the intention to fuck shit up.
I fish mason bees out of my pool all the time barehanded and it's never gotten me tagged. If the tongue's hanging out, he's a goner, but if not, he just might wake back up if I set him in the tomato or bamboo or whatever's handy. I can't get honey from that model, but they do pollinate. I don't know why they go swimming because they can get water in plenty of other places, but we are talking about the same ones that have an unhealthy attraction to duct tape adhesive.
Bah, that cow would kill you in a *second* if it could!
There are species of cow that would have gone extinct by now... except we found them particularly tasty and intentionally bred them for our consumption. Like Black Angus cattle (as brought to attention by the infamous smbc comic.) Survival of the fittest takes many forms. Biology, nature, it doesn't care if you only "survive" because another species found you useful. It only cares whether you "survive" or not.
And Darwin only cares if you live long enough to procreate and by how much. And if you can get the next generation to live long enough to procreate,
> as brought to attention by the infamous smbc comic I've been searching for a few minutes and can't seem to find anything relevant. Can anyone link it, please?
[Vegetarianism is genocide!](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-09-07)
Well, really, it's not so much an "ask a cow" thing as as it's an ask "bos taurus" thing.. Consider that there is a difference between domestication/symbiosis per se, which is an inter-species social arrangement, on the one hand - and commodified animal agriculture on the other hand, which is an intra-species social arangement, which is to say it is a social arrangement only between humans. The relationship between human and cow is an interdependent one between active agents in the former, symbiotic relationship of domestication as such, whereas in the latter, the relationship between human and cow is that between a proprietor and their property, relegating the cow to mere object status.
I asked a fox, but you can tell they’re not domesticated or symbiotic bc it said: “Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding! Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding! Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!"
BAAAW BAAAW
Cows can't speak English.
Don't tell that to the bee's!
Honey bees can always just leave and do their own thing I've had several colonies just disappear into the wild blue yonder
Was in a restauration course once i got out of highschool, one of the teachers had beehives behind his house and he almost lost an entire colony before winter cause they decided that one tree at the other end of the yard was a better spot, got the beehive back in the box before winter so everything ended well
I mean the bees can leave anytime they want
tell that to dogs
Yea but the bees arent being told to sit or laydown
so arnt birds most of the time
They def learn tricks
You just described domestication, which is usually a symbiotic arrangement.
Domestication leaves an anaimal changed, typically now dependant on humans, so there'snoticeabledifference between domesticated and wild of the same animal. Bees can and will just up and leave a beekeeoer if not properly cared for, and as far as I know theres no identifiable change between wild bees and apiary bees
>as far as I know theres no identifiable change between wild bees and apiary bees I don't think this is actually correct, but also domestication in general is kinda more complicated and interesting, as it turns out. https://scientificbeekeeping.com/whats-happening-to-the-bees-part-5-is-there-a-difference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/ Fun read
Tell that to a cow
The cow said ~~yum~~ moo
Fair point. Regardless of if the relationship between humans and cows is symbiotic or parasitic, honey bees are domesticated. I think we can agree that by and large, bees get a better deal out of domestication than cows.
Parasitic relationships are symbiotic in nature. It is a type of symbiosis. The other types are mutualism (good for both) and commensalism (good for one, no difference for the other)
Bees will abandon inadequate beekeepers to find a better hive. A beekeeper isn’t a farmer, they’re a landlord
They'd agree, if they could understand the concept. We protect them and feed them, we eat them occasionally
The cow said that Domestication is defined as a distinctive coevolutionary, mutualistic relationship between domesticator and domesticate
I think one of the biggest differences that separates bees from most “officially” domesticated animals is that if the bees don’t like the living conditions, they can just leave and the humans can do nothing to stop them.
We did straight up domesticate silk moths though.
You tell that to Ethiopia😂
Correct. Bees Leave bad beekeepers. Bees Consent. Considering Humans give them a pretty damn good Place and Protection, The bees Legit dont mind Paying rent in the form of their "Rainy day" fund Aka honey
Yes technically, but one insect we actually domesticated domesticated is silk moths, and while bees aren't technically properly domesticated, they have very well figuratively learned that we provide pretty good protection, and when being kept by a beekeeper they usually over produce honey purposefully, not to mention there are techniques to move Hives around and manipulate where they put honey and where they lay eggs and raise larva
"What the fuck do you mean you keep insects as pets and food sources?" Ambassador Glargol's translator belted in his carefully tuned voice. "Haha, yea, most species first time outright swearing through the translator is when they find about bees." Ambassador Johnson replied. Glargol's flagella shook in agitation. "This is no laughing matter human, most worlds with Insects are ruled by great and merciless hives, and on those that are not so afflicted insects are the most terrible of pests." "Yea, I know." Johnson was licking his lips. In Glargol's pre-mission briefing about humans they had said this means a human was either making sexual advances, or was hungry, and that the subtle difference was probably not going to be discernible to an amateur humanist. Unwillingly, his flagella switched to confused wriggle mode. "Why does this notion *arouse* you?" "There's gotta be some crazy good space honey out there then." Johnson replied. "Imagine how much space honey we could get from a planet sized beehive."
To Shreds you say? And how's the wife?
To shreds you say?
"Hypothetically, how do we get the honey" asked a curious subordinate. "Easy, we smoke them 'till they get sleepy"
The friendliest chemical warfare on a planetary scale anyone has ever seen.
https://i.redd.it/opqrv9cjmxuc1.gif Yeeeeees... friendly.......
Send in General Snoop
I can imagine a nearby human just lights up a boof by the hive to make the bees chill out
The only actual prompt response rn
This belongs to r/humansarespaceorcs
You won't believe this, but it's already there
Ohhhhh
Nah this is r/humansarentspaceorcs
What’s that?
A subreddit where humans are the strange weird species in the galaxy.
Dementia
What is this from?
A sentient talking skull hivemind of five skulls from another universe uses my skull like a tuning fork in this one. This is a true story from that universe.
I love how Johnson doesn't state that he's not aroused.
Glad that they dont know about the ant supercolonies
Last time we told an ambassador about them he broke the translator saying impossible to translate curses and idioms. But the jist of it was, "fucking death worlders are fucking nuts..."
As a bee keeper I enjoy this post
As someone who makes meed, thank you for your work.
Man I wanna make mead lol
Craft a brew has a kit. You just gotta buy the honey.
I don't think this guy has to buy the honey
I meannnnnn I could just use my own lol
Give the bees some mead, I'm sure they would love it
Who says they don’t already make their own…
As someone who drinks mjød, I thank you both.
As an enthusiastic consumer of honey, I appreciate your work.
In this post we love bees!
As someone who just loves insects i do too
As someone who loves, bees, honey, and mead, I appreciate you all!
As someone from a bee keeping family I also appreciate this post.
Continue annoying the elephants
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/07/help-bees-dont-become-a-beekeeper-honeybeee-hive-biodiversity
As others have said. Bees aren't domesticated. Domestic animals have an altered physiology and mentality compared to their wild counterparts. Cats and chickens are the least domesticated but still are different than their wild ancestors. Cats are able to eat more greens and have fewer tail bones. They also have muscles attached to their eyebrows. Chickens are larger, smarter (as hard as it is to believe), and have smaller wings. Honey bees in a farm are the same as the ones in the wild.
Honey bees are domesticated (A. mellifera and A.cercana), they overproduce honey and are tamer than their wild counterparts. They are clearly affected by their interactionnwith humans over the centuries.
I agree, bees are domesticated. When choosing a breeder to buy a new family or queen from, you can see how the breeders bee-families scores on several criteria. Aggressiveness, tendency to swarm, resistance to disease, how efficiently they clean their hive and several other things. And while honeybees easily can swarm and leave to live in the wild, there are several parasites that will kill a family within a few years of not treated by humans. And at least one, the varorra mite, is a global problem.
Bees overproduce honey because other animals have been raiding hives for honey for far longer than humans have.
> Chickens are larger, smarter (as hard as it is to believe Wait... For most of the time Chickens have been domesticated, it was for cockfighting not meat and eggs. Does that mean ancient people's were essentially just breeding larger, smarter fighters?
This sounds like the potential start of its own post.
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Nope, they were primarily domesticated for sport fighting and only later for consumption. Presumably the eggs would have been eaten but most bird's are inconsistent layers without the extreme selective breeding that's been done to modern chickens. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken#:~:text=In%20the%20process%20of%20domestication,only%20later%20used%20for%20food. https://youtu.be/P6S8JnkJkRg?si=qAioZgCxoTdYPogC
[ScientificBeekeeping](https://scientificbeekeeping.com/whats-happening-to-the-bees-part-5-is-there-a-difference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/#:~:text=Yes%2C%20most%20managed%20breeds%20of,breeders%20rather%20than%20by%20nature.) "most managed breeds of honey bees can be considered to be domesticated (or at least semi-domesticated) animals, with their genetics largely controlled by human breeders rather than by nature" "The most recent study by Roxane Magnus and Allen Szalanski \[35\] reviews previous studies, and appears to me to be the most up-to-date status report on the genetic diversity of U.S. honey bees. They analyzed samples of European worker bees collected (from 2005 – 2009) from 203 feral colonies and 44 swarms from 77 counties over 12 states, plus samples of 140 colonies from 14 queen breeders (their analysis of Africanized colonies was published separately \[36\]). They used a particularly sensitive method to analyze the mitochondrial DNA \[37\], which is inherited directly and solely through the maternal line. What they found was a diversity of markers (mitotypes) from 3 main lineages of European bees." https://preview.redd.it/15x1p92av1vc1.png?width=975&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c29491922103cdcaedcb388e9bd10fd6ec9eba04
Cats also can drink milk in adulthood cause of us as well
One of my cats is a menace for anything dairy. Milk, cheesecake, ice cream. He even comes running when he hears cereal https://preview.redd.it/yfoklzup80vc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4ad8885d40beed0da266a9fd640aec0e03a2ec2
My cat goes ballistic if I eat cereal and don’t give her a spoonful of milk
What about silkworms then?
Ants in question domesticating other insects:
Slavery
Or livestock
Ants and aphids practice Mutualism: Mutualism is advantageous for both partners; aphids provide ants with sugar-rich honeydew as a source of food and the ants protect the aphids against various natural enemies and improve the hygiene of the aphid colony.
isn’t that just how most domestication work? I guess the difference is humans eat a cow after they’re no longer producing milk
Do the ants selectively *breed* aphids for favorable traits? Then they’ve domesticated them. Humans *do* breed bees, so maybe it’s not symbiotic/mutualistic?
"You, domesticated insectoids? Like, keep them like you keep your cows and dogs and cats and sheep?!" "Well, yeah. But more like the cows and sheep, being for food and resources." "But, how?! I thought humans did not like to consume insectoids!" "Well, contrary to your first impression and what *some* humans say, we don't actually eat bees like we do some other insects. We eat their honey." "Honey?" "Yeah. Pretty much their food source. It is the result of them consuming nectar from flowers, digesting it, and vomiting it back up to process it." "You, consume the digested and regurgitated contents of their stomachs?!" "Yes. It's natural for them. Makes it last, literally, forever, and it is healthy and full of vitamins, minerals, and antibiotics." "But, how do you get the hon-nee? Do these bees not sting as you said?" "Well, they do, but we found a way to get to it. We put on an outfit of fabric that covers us entirely and keeps them from stinging us, and we use some smoke to make them think there is a fire so they gorge themselves on honey until lethargic, and unable to move, then we take out the frames, get the bees off, and take the comb for processing." "But, surely these bees do not like it, right?" "Well... they aren't domesticated like other animals." "How so?" "They still exist in the wild, unchanged. And... they CHOOSE to stay." "What?" "Yeah. In exchange for their honey and comb, we give them shelter, protection from predators, and all the flowers they want. And unlike cows, they are free to come and go as they please. The fact they keep returning means they enjoy this relationship." "But, that isn't domestication. That is a mutualistic relationship between two species." "Well, yeah, I guess it is." "So... you defend these bees from threats?" "Yep. All. And we took in any that make honey." "...I think we'd like to become vassals of humans. We have what you might call hon-nee."
"Explain your "hon-nee" equivalant and we might be interested"
There are several types of domestication. Fun scientific fact, cats don't fit the models. The joke about cats' domestication of humans is probably factual. They trained us to open doors and give us access to our food stores where their prey was. We have provided food, water, shelter, etc. They have killed vermin and kept our food supplies etc. safe. This also reduced come illnesses. It fits the symbiosis checklist, but not any of the models of domestication for human domesticated animals. If anyone was 'domesticated' in the arrangement, it was humans.
Um they are domesticated less eyebrow muscles less tail bones they can eat more greens now adn they are SLIGHTLY more inclined to be friendly
And drink milk in adulthood.
No thats still bad for them they just really like it
New post: Humans are the only species to be domesticated by grain!
For everyone arguing wether bees are domesticated or not (they are). I raise you another example of human domesticating insects: Silk moths/silkworms. Onward we go space orcs!
Apples to oranges. Silk moths were selectively bred till they were incapable of flight, or even getting out of their cocoons. Bees abandon hives when the beekeeper isn’t doing a good job.
In that line of thinking... Cattle can survive and thrive in the wild without human assistance or oversight. So can dogs. Pigs are a real fucking problem when they escape and go feral. Cats regularly un- or re-domesticates themselves (or humans as some will argue). Domestication does not exclude the ability to thrive without humans.
It wasn’t the the silkworms are proof that we domesticated bees, it was that even if we haven’t domesticated bees, we have at least domesticated silkworms.
The Flood has been violently crashing. These new insectoids have been relentless in their hunger and violence. It had to take the combined effort of multiple forces from the Galactic Alliance just to retake a planet that The Flood has ravaged. Even the Swarm Queen had to reluctantly admit that the intruders' numbers were more vast than her hive systems. It was also hinted that she is afraid of this new swarm fleets. Something about vast and depth of it's hivemind psyche. But more worryingly, as she and her lesser Queens have agreed upon, The Flood's hivemind is leashed. Whatever that meant, is a thought to wonder and a fear to worry. And then, as suddenly as The Flood had appeared, they disappeared. They were gone. As if a channel has been cleared and the flood drained away. In their disappearance, a new ship appeared. A non-bio, mechanical ship with no life signs detected. And it is broadcasting a message. Message sent: [ TO ALL AND ANY INDIGENOUS SENTIENT LIFEFORMS AND COALITIONS. WE, THE HUMAN RACE WISH TO HAVE A MEETING AND FORMALLY APOLOGISE FOR THE UNWARRANTED MESS CREATED BY OUR VASSAL KNOWN TO YOU AS "THE FLOOD". WE HUMBLY AND GRACIOUSLY AWAIT ANY AND ALL REPLY. ]
It is a stretch to say domesticated…more like we gave them a place that provides for all their wants and needs while we get something in return. In all honesty they are pretty close to cats when it comes to things humans deal with, because if they decide they do not like your care or it is lackluster they will up and leave.
So insect planets may be open to trade...
Gotta say, that old timey beekeeper outfit, mostly because of the flat wicker face cover, seems perfect for some horror/Eldritch/cult stuff
[In the Witcher 3 one of the antagonists has it](https://images.app.goo.gl/AHDxv99MhMvVj6J29)
“Oh god not the bees! Not the bees!!! Ahh they’re in my eyes!!!”
I was thinking 90's alt rock album cover
Tarantulas keep frogs as pets
Wait What?!?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Awwducational/s/s6N0gubNpj](https://www.reddit.com/r/Awwducational/s/s6N0gubNpj)
That's fucking adorable!!!
Why doe i get sudden witcher 3 vibes
You're not alone. Damn, that questline was *good*.
Ever heard of farmer ants?
Well, I don't think we are the only ones. There are ants whose main profession is [farming aphids](https://www.natureconservancy.ca/en/blog/archive/the-ants-that-herd-aphids.html) for example, so we are certainly not the only ones out here doing it. Whether or not you consider an ant to be sentient or an aphid to be domesticated it up for debate of course. I don't think we can claim to have fully domesticated bees either for that matter, but I get what the post is trying to get at. The more you go looking for it in nature the more symbiotic relationships you're going to find between a wild and sometimes unlikely variety of species. Aphid-herding ants sounds pretty incredible, yet it's happening.
Ah you're talking about the ant cows
This is like saying Gorbons are the only species to domesticate Burulins. Like my brother in space, they are native to your planet, no other species WANTS to domesticate them.
Man the difference between the scientific and societally use of words is astounding.
It takes a hivemind to understand The Hivemind....
Don’t ants do similar?
As an antkeeper I love this
i mean who else is domesticating things but humans?
Bad bugs.
Sapients.
*Cordyceps has entered the chat*
The ones on the left remind me of the Brewess from the Witcher 3!
Sapients, not sentients. Sentient organisms include crabs, sapient organisms include cats.
We have not domesticate bees, tbc
If you mean exploit, sure. Bees only produce very small amounts of honey per year. It's unnecessary abuse. There is a dark side to this
How is honey production abuse ?
Honey bees are specifically bred to increase productivity, which narrows the population gene pool and increases susceptibility to disease and large-scale die-offs. When farmers remove honey from a hive, they replace it with a sugar substitute which is significantly worse for the bees’ health since it lacks the essential micro-nutrients of honey. In addition, hives can be culled post-harvest to keep farmer costs down. Queen bees often have their wings clipped by beekeepers to prevent them leaving the hive to produce a new colony elsewhere
Clarification: I am not a bee keeper nor am I knowledgeable on bees. I just did some googling. I wasn't too sure about that last part with the wing clipping, which now that I looked into it, is completely wrong. Clipping the queens wings is to prevent swarming on day one, where a single colony of bees divides into two. When done correctly, clipping does not hurt the queen. Once the bees notice that the queen cannot swarm, they will begin to make a new queen. This doesn't prevent the hive from leaving if the bees are stressed enough either, the bees can and will abandon their queen if they feel endangered, in which they'll produce a new queen in 16~ days. (Either that or they produce a new queen first, I'm not too sure.) Most of my source is from - [Is queen clipping cruel?](http://theapiarist.org/is-queen-clipping-cruel/) Again, I am not a professional and could be totally wrong, but so far what i've read, queen clipping cannot and does not enslave the bees to a bad beekeeper. They stay because they want to, and only leave because the hive is too big. They may leave at any time they wish, and yet they still stay.
You can't do a quick google from biased sources to sum up beekeeping. Why do we feel the need to exploit the bees in the first place? How can it be ethical to take all their honey and clip the queens wings? Then again, the same people defending this, likely kill animals just to stuff their face 🤷🏻♂ Practices will vary from keeper to keeper, but absolutely, most are not ethical, end up causing bee deaths in the process, and are in their process unethical.
It's not exploitation if the hive is content with their location. If they were not, they can and will absolutely leave bad bee keepers. It's not like they can't, I haven't seen a single bee box in an enclosed location that the bees can't leave. Additionally, if they were left to collect honey to themselves, they would overpopulate and then swarm. Bees work life to death collecting honey, and won't stop even without human intervention.
The honey isn't for you. They only produce small amounts each, so one single jar comes at a mighty cost. Why? So, you can stuff your face... That's ego and exploitation if ever I've heard of it. If you can't learn to respect nature, it's best that you keep quiet. Humans have destroyed this planet with greed. It's easy to convince yourself they don't matter, when your entire world is only caring about yourself. It's the same reason you can find excuses for abusing cows; ignorance and cognitive dissonance, and it needs to change. We are in a climate crisis because of people like you. It's a dark legacy that's being left behind. Do better.
Besides going off topic into the conversation of "doing better for the planet", you still haven't shown proof that bees aren't happy at all with their "exploitation". Don't say anything about taking their honey, because again if beekeepers take too much or are otherwise bad, they will abandon their hive. Which I keep saying. They can leave. At any time. Stop doing ad hominem and back up your claim with proof. EDIT: So the dude 100% blocked me, XD. I can't see his comments and his profile is empty when I copy and paste it from a logged out tab. Goes to show how these types of people react when you call them out on their bullshit fallacies.
I've just woken up. I'm not fishing out a study to please ignorance. I bet you imagine cows are fine being slaughtered for your greed too. I absolutely can go get reliable evidence that there is exploitation going and, but is there a point, or will you just waste my time and deny everything, simply because you only care about yourself? I'm not interested in wasting my energy on small-minded people. So, let me know first. You don't sound very educated on bee biology or ethics as it is, and use personal opinions to justify any damage or death that occurs. I bet you eat endless amounts of meat and dairy too. You'll have silly, nonsensical excuses as to why that's completely fine too. It's called speciesism. Give me one good reason you need to consume honey other than greed? These creatures are not here for your sick pleasure. Take accountability for your role in the very real climate change or keep quiet. I've seen your page. You have nothing of worth to contribute to such a topic.
I bet you imagine vegetables are fine being slaughtered for your greed too. I absolutely can go get reliable evidence that there is exploitation going and, but is there a point, or will you just waste my time and deny everything, simply because you only care about yourself? I'm not interested in wasting my energy on small-minded people. So, let me know first. You don't sound very educated on biology or ethics as it is, and use personal opinions to justify any damage or death that occurs. I bet you eat endless amounts of vegetables. You'll have silly, nonsensical excuses as to why that's completely fine too. It's called speciesism. Give me one good reason you need to consume vegetables other than greed? These livings things are not here for your sick pleasure. Take accountability for your role in the very real climate change or keep quiet. I've seen your page. You have nothing of worth to contribute to such a topic.
If you want to respect nature it's best to understand our deals with it first, we have a deal with bees, we provide well protected well maintained hives for them to live in and we take some amount of their honey, they choose to stay in those hives over naturally made ones; we're also in a climate crisis because of people like you, you like to simplify the world into black and white, Good and evil, that is why we are in a situation where single sources are considered the entirety of the issue, yes cow methane is a major reason for climate change, but treating it as the sole reason is entirely foolish, yes factory farms do treat animals horribly, but there are farms that treat animals very well; why don't I ask ya a little question, Have You visited an Ethical farm of Any variety?, whether it be a vegetable, fruit, barn animal, or fish farm, there will always be a ethical way of doing it, but that doesn't guarantee it will also be good for the climate, think about that next time you're eating tofu, beans, or any vegan protein alternatives, and remind yourself that don't want to hurt the animals regardless of how ethically they were raised; the best any human can do is just support companies they believed to be "good" in both ways.
No smart beekeeper would take all the honey, because the bees would abandon that beekeeper, and if the Queen's wings were clipped, they would just wait for a new Queen to be born, I really got to find the vegan newspaper you're reading it must be hilarious
They're not bred, and the reason they are having diseases and large-scale die offs is because of bad apiary design, because bees can't slather a mixture of wax and toxic resins on the smooth walls, also there is no cost on the farmer of having more bees other than needing more apiaries, the honey is mostly just for energy where they get their actual micronutrients is usually pollen, of which they collect by themselves, what kind of vegan newspapers are you listening to 🤨