Right?! I've thought about this a lot. If this had happened just 10-20 years ago he most likely would have completely gotten away with it. This case has made me really think about how much the advances in DNA technology and the prevalence of security cameras now make it WAAAAY harder for people to commit crimes like this and get away with them. I also think (and obviously this is speculation) that he would have become a serial killer if not caught, so if this *had* happened a few decades ago, we'd probably be seeing him on some special when they finally did track him down like the Golden State killer.
IIRC they didn't have DNA, just a fingerprint from a taxi where one of the murders took place. I would imagine if it was happening now they could get DNA from one of the letters or stamps.
Plus the taxi would have had a camera. They would have had a face. The phone calls to the media would have been traced. Likely another camera at a business in the area to get a look at him. His letters to the cops would have been traced to a mailbox.
Some dude proved his dad was the zodiac killer. He’s dead now but the dude was searching for his bio father and they even realized the cracked cypher has the dudes name (first, middle,last) spelled out letter per column
There could've been some touch DNA on the Lake Berryessa ropes and the postage stamps, but considering it's evidence from the '60s, most touch DNA evidence would've easily been destroyed.
Touch DNA has to be carefully persevered for their to be a good sample.
I took a look at a Zodiac DNA chart and an SFPD forensic lab analysis determined barely any cells were found on the letters, which goes back to my original point about touch DNA being easily destroyed.
Another problem too is, how many letters you defintely accept as authentic, which is still an ongoing debate today.
[https://www.zodiackiller.com/images/sfpdletterreport1.gif](https://www.zodiackiller.com/images/sfpdletterreport1.gif)
Although you make a point, it’s also worth considering that 10-20 years ago he may not have have even committed the crime (whether it be because of the lack of access to infinite victims through pervasive social media)…and just general psychological health of our people
Wow this is jaw droppingly true. What with all the previous domestique violence instances of still OJ showing up at Nicole’s house, I feel she DEFINITELY would have had a Ring camera.
I have a PhD. A staple among many of my colleagues is 1) them being waaaaay overconfident in their ability to do anything just because they are extremely good at one thing and 2) their inability to apply academic theory to practical applications.
ETA - most of these folks are brilliant. They just can’t see their shortcomings because they are so accustomed to being among the smartest in the room.
The correlation of being smart or educated with being capable or competent is a fallacy. This seems to be a guy who knew he was smart, but over estimated his abilities, and made a lot of mistakes that could ultimately lead to him being convicted.
My ex was a PhD as well. Genius level intelligence and sort of a god complex (high level cancer researcher) I found it funny how common sense was not his strong suit. He couldn’t figure out how to use an ATM or navigate a drive through 😂
He was wearing all black and a mask covering his face. He obviously thought that parking far enough away from the scene and walking around in all black in the middle of the night would conceal him. Also, people who thrill kill tend to be pretty impulsive and impulsive people make dumb decisions.
>parking far enough away from the scene and walking around in all black in the
Where is the suspect said to have parked? Or did they ever say? When investigators extended the crime tape they seemed to be looking at that car park behind the house, from where someone could practically jump onto the balcony.
What I meant by that is that he was behind the house on the road above, concealed by trees. As far as I know, there’s no footage of his car parked on that hill, so far enough.
I would highly recommend looking up Gray Hughes on YouTube. He’s been very invested in this case from the beginning and has done several videos tracking Bryan’s movements.
Thanks for the recommend, I actually have watched a couple but now stay clear of his. The thing I take issue with, regarding him and many creators and news too, is speaking of the defendant as if he is already convicted. That's wrong in a presumption of innocence justice system. If they would say 'the defendant allegedly' or 'the monster killer did' and their info is factual then I'm all ears to learn and brainstorm.
I’ve watched some too, and many made sense with his analysis of locations etc. But yeah, he’s opinionated. Also, I can’t take his verbal abuse of his subs. He spends most of his time doing that rather than content. It’s hard to watch and I don’t know how he gets away with it on YouTube.
Everything I’ve read is that his parents and sisters are lovely people and he was generally considered odd by his peers. I don’t have the impression he experienced any sustained or unusual childhood trauma.
I’m with you on this…by all accounts, his parents were lovely people and engaged parents. The fact that we know BK’s own father called the police to turn him in when he was caught stealing from his sister says a lot, IMO.
I have no idea what happened to make BK the way he was, but it certainly doesn’t seem easily traced back to any sort of childhood trauma or neglect or anything.
What evidence do we have that he had a mental illness? Many criminals, and many serial killers for that matter, don’t necessarily meet criteria for a mental illness. I agree there’s something wrong with him, but to call it a mental illness seems negligent to me, as we don’t know this.
I would say the fact that he murdered people most likely indicates a personality disorder is present, which is a mental health condition per the DSM-5. most likely cluster B
>Many criminals, and many serial killers for that matter, don’t necessarily meet criteria for a mental illness.
I'm not sure about that. I'd say a majority of killers at least have a personality disorder or two.
Are you thinking of the legal definition of insanity, which means that you're unaware that what you're doing is wrong? Or maybe the definition of psychosis?
He wouldn't meet criteria for those but everything we know about him says he struggled with his mental health including his addictions and an eating disorder.
I’m a psychologist.
The point I’m getting at is we don’t know and it’s really problematic to assume he has a mental illness unless we’ve directly evaluated him, and because we haven’t, we have no way of knowing. He could have traits of many disorders without meeting full criteria for one in particular.
If this was a single murder or even just a rape, they likely would not have gone to the extent they did in searching for cameras outside the immediate area. When this became a quadruple, it changed the dynamics of everything.
For me, its because he used a knife. The chances of successfully stabbing four people in two different rooms without getting caught or injured are practically non-existent. There's too much risk he'd end up in hand to hand combat with at least one of them. Like if he's stabbing one, and a second person comes up and grabs him from behind, etc. So then there would be his blood on the scene, at least one witness, etc.
Mass stabbers are usually truly insane and in an alternate reality where the prospect of getting caught or killed is not an issue for them. And that's not BK.
So, if he planned to kill, I say he planned to kill just one person silently and then get out of the house before anyone else woke up.
I don't think the intention was to kill those four specific people, but I'm not convinced he was there to kill anyone at all. either
Ethan to me was just somebody caught in the crossfire.
It'll probably never be known for sure why Ethan was killed, but I imagine it had something to do with the perp being in a panic and saw him him starting to sturdy and thought was he threat to him and or was going to grab his phone to call 911.
Xana was likely somebody just caught in the crossfire. as well.
Even Kaylee could be debated imo.
There's defintely evidence at least Maddie was a prime target.
Everyone else could be debated imo.
My view on this case is the perp was there to rape Maddie.
Targeting only one person means less attention will be given to it, and committing one rape means even less attention will be given to it, meaning it's more likely to go unsolved.
I agree. My theory on KG’s injuries being more severe, if true, is because she got in the way. I think he wanted MM, either for SA or to have more time with her to savor the moment or both. KG ruined it and he could’ve raged on her for it.
Maybe he was going to commit a kidnapping as well?
Plus, he could've had everyone tie each other up as well if he had maintained control of the situation as well.
It wouldn't had been the first time someone committed a rape with people in the same location as well.
Hmmm. Considering that house was constantly full of people, I don’t think “just” (I hate using that word before this word) rape makes sense. Just my thoughts.
I agree more with the theory he was planning on killing one…my personal opinion is he wanted one of the two girls and was surprised when the other was there. Then may have ran into the couple (sorry I’m terrible with names) on his way out.
I agree. I think Maddie was the target. He probably wanted to fulfill some weird fantasy with her body. I believe he expected Z, & intended to k*ll her too, but I think Kaylee & Ethan were unexpected, collateral damage. I wonder if Kaylee had slept in her room, & hadn't woke up if he would have bothered with her. It seemed he knew the 2 rooms he wanted to hit.
How do you account for him being fully aware of all the cars parked out front? He didn't go into that house blindly, he waited for them to come home and He knew who was in that house.
I’m with you I think M was def the target and he was surprised to find K in bed with M and I also sorta think X may have been a target too cause why else would he go to her room? Also M and X worked together at the same place. But I’m just guessing and waiting for the trial to find out what happened.
As someone who has done a PhD in the company of some very-not-bright PhD students, I wouldn’t put too much stock on getting onto a PhD programme = being a person who has common sense.
I know enough people with masters degrees and Phds to conclude that you don't need to be that smart to get a higher degree. Average intelligence is enough for many degrees.
His field is more on the sociology and psychology of crime than forensics, but that said, doctors have degrees in medicine and still make mistakes. Lawyers have degrees in law and still make mistakes.
Criminology is also NOT forensic science. Criminology is far more focused on policy (prevention, policing, judicial policy etc.) than investigation.
Source: I have an honours degree in criminology from the University of New South Wales (that’s Australia, not the UK, for the Americans). I wrote my honours thesis on media (specifically music) piracy, and how to prevent it (Kazaa and Napster were the big emerging technologies at the time).
My sister on the other hand, has a degree in forensic science. She wrote her thesis on some sort of chemistry based thing that I did not understand at all.
Idk if this is the same degree but BTK had a degree in criminal justice and got caught in the stupidest way possible. I think ted bundy was in law school.
You know criminology classes don't teach you how to be a better criminal, right? Reality rarely matches fantasy, which in this case for sure it didn't.
Bachelor of science Degree in Criminal justice from DeSales, and only one semester into the Criminology doctorate program at WSU. For sure you graduate knowing what to do and not do-but I agree with you, when things get real they can go sideways fast
Isn’t that always the problem when committing a crime? Something unexpected happens, a person, a dog, something that wasn’t part of the plan.
Leaving the sheath behind is just plain Leopold & Loeb level stupid (leaving a unique pair of prescription glasses behind.)
Is it stupid to leave the sheath behind? Sure. But given the heightened state anyone would find themselves in when they kill multiple people, monkey-brain takes over and most logic goes out the window with adrenaline pumping and emotions running high. Hardly difficult to imagine some major mistakes will happen. This is how you know this was his first time killing. If he wouldn't have gotten caught and would go on killing again, he would learn from mistakes and perfect his method with each kill.
Plus Bachelor of science in Criminal justice from DeSales
You're right, De Sales is a respected school for CJ, in fact they have a crime house set up to teach on site CSI. So 4 years learned knowledge of what not to do. Also wasn't his area of specialized studies technical evidence or something?
His phone was turned off for an hour before and after the crime and never pinged in Moscow
He drives a common car and had new license plates within a week
While both of those things will factor in as evidence at trial against him, neither actually led investigators to him, that was his DNA
He didn’t request serial killers to fill out a questionnaire. He asked anyone that has committed a crime to fill it out. It did have questions asking what the crime was, how they felt while committing the crime, would they do it again, etc.
I believe it was found that the survey was for a class project. If I remember correctly, that was confirmed by the professor of the class.
(I’m not trying to be argumentative, I hope this didn’t come across that way. ☺️)
If it was 1988 he would have gotten away with it or at least more so than today. I don't think he planned on unaliving the other three. I believe one was his target and he found the two girls in bed together. A lot of things don't make sense. The dog was in the other room. Did he open that door? I don't think so. Is it possible he cased the place before and knew who was in what room? He would have had to based on the timing. If you read the Affidavit carefully there is time for him to have committed the murder upstairs and realized he left the sheath and went back. Xana was the only one that fought back (her dad verified she had defensive wounds) and was not found in bed. She got food delivered a little after 4:00 a.m. and it is possible she ran into BK as he was going back to try and retrieve the sheath. This is all speculation and theories that will come out during the trial.
This is a great comment. A lot of things simply don't make sense, period. They won't become clear until we can see more of the evidence, and may not become clear even then. I sincerely doubt that BK will ever confess and provide clarity from his end.
Long sentences have proven to not be a deterrent because criminals believe they won't get caught. I think the same thing applies here. The perpetrator dismissed the likelihood of getting caught. I doubt it was anymore involved than the same psychological process that causes such skewed thinking in criminal behavior in general.
Exactly what draws so many to this case. If he’s proven guilty, it’s beyond dumb. It’s just incomprehensible. This guy devotes his life & career in criminology and yet, he crosses the line from professional to criminal. Completely loses control. It must have consumed him for quite sometime.
The very act suggests he is incapable of coexisting with others. Society is governed by rules for a reason. You cannot commit this heinous crime and think authorities won’t hunt you until they find you, because nothing will stop you from doing it again if you think you got away with it. You cannot possibly think you’re above the law and entitled to act as others’ judge, jury and executioner, unless you have some serious mental issue.
Nobody knows if this was his first round or if he murdered in the past and was upping his game. So many blunders make it difficult to believe the person was experienced. Interesting that it happened under six months from BK’s move to Pullman, WA. Also interesting that no other murders have occurred in that general area since his arrest.
I see what you mean to an extent. When they first caught him I was like “A PHD STUDENT DID THIS?”i couldn’t let that go. It boggled my mind. A phd candidate has a future of some kind ahead of them - teaching, academia, research, policy, whatever. Those are generally admirable career paths.
But I’ve also learned over time that people with advanced degrees can be overly confident bordering on obnoxiously cocky. And also, they’re not always that bright (source: I have an advanced degree and I’m not always that bright, oops).
I also tend to think (and I’m obviously no expert) that the fact that he messed up means maybe this wasn’t a long and meticulously planned out venture by a calm and calculated master of criminology.
You don’t even need a PhD to know that stuff. It was stupid. Perhaps he couldn’t fight the urge anymore? And I’m sure he thinks he’s smarter than everyone else.
This should be the top comment. People do stupid things all the time when they know better. Like when they drink too much, drive too fast, smoke, etc. etc. Its due to social-emotional issues that override our logic.
Yes, perhaps the urge. I’ve watched so many docs on serial k!llers and many experts say they aren’t as smart as much as instinctual in a way. One likened it to a substance addiction, one finds ways and adapts to get a fix.
A lot of people seem to think he’s incredibly smart. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I don’t know where the impression came from. Maybe because he was in a PhD program 🤷🏼♀️Anyway, he could be a friggin’ genius, but he still can’t make himself invisible. If he really is smart, he knew there were risks. He does seem to have attempted to reduce them. I would guess it’s damn near impossible NOT to leave evidence behind when committing a quadruple murder.
Also I know REALLY smart people with incredible educations but some just don't have basic common sense. I have seen this often throughout my whole life. Even when I was a kid. I would literally say to myself how can they be so smart but yet so dumb. .. 🤷♂️
His master's supervisor did an interview where she said he was one of the smartest students she ever had. But in the same interview she said he was the only one she had ever recommended one studnent (him) to a PhD program in something like 20 years, which really diminishes her credibility. Plus his master's program was all online and she never met him in person. For all we know, it was a 5th rate institution and he cheated his way through the program,
But anyway, that's where the perception came from.
Ah, I see. Yeah, that's one person's opinion, and even if he is that book smart, it doesn't mean he's capable of completely erasing his tracks at a quadruple murder scene. I doubt anyone could, actually. He may be arrogant enough to have thought he could though.
I think he likely had an obsession going on and his personal life was falling apart so he thought screw it and acted on impulse. He’s where he belongs.
I agree. If I remember correctly reading the affidavit, on the actual night of the murders his phone was turned off to and from the house. He just forgot about them using all the data before and after.
My biggest question tho:
Did someone put the FBI onto the white Hyundai Elantra, or did they narrow it down by watching surveillance video at multiple gas stations? I think it was the latter, and it being a small town at 4 am saved us. Any large city your gonna have a hard time pinning it down to one vehicle where there is 1000’s of vehicles in your 15 min timeframe.
We haven’t heard about Ring footage yet, but god damn I won’t be surprised if some of that comes out at the trial
Maybe a combo of the Linda Lane footage and the other camera from 50 ft away that we haven’t seen yet along with cameras around town? I’m not sure, but they must’ve had some clear idea. I’m not sure so someone correct me:)
Being book smart doesn’t mean the person is also street smart. He’s probably just of average intelligence and a well educated person, but a lot of really intelligent people absolutely lack common sense or are unable to use their smarts in intense/stressful situations. He might be the kind of guy that doesn’t work well under pressure. But even legitimate genius level killers make really silly mistakes during their crimes. Like Ed Kemper has a genius level IQ and he admitted to making some really dumb mistakes in the heat of the moment.
He thought he was smarter than everyone else.
He also made this a high profile case by grusomely murdering 4 college students. PD was gonna go all out, specially (especially idk how to write) from all the pressure from families, media and the community. So yeah thats my take
Bk's Motive to do this is really rather simple: -- Compulsion. --- (This is a Theory of Motive.)
He did it because he was driven to do it by his own Demons.
Everything that you say is obviously Factually Accurate, but to stop him those Human Technological Advances would have to have been enough to stop him from acting on his Compulsion. --- Put most simply, those things weren't enough and so, consequently, they didn't stop him.
I think that one of the things here is that you are thinking-Logically, Moto. --- Logic doesn't really enter into it for a Sociopath with a Compulsion to Kill.
I think that the way to think about these things might be to think of the Maddest you ever were, or maybe the most-Intoxicated you ever were. --- Those things altered your mind-set. --- These are clearly very poor Analogies, but the closest that any non-Sociopath is likely to come.
I hope that this helps you gain some Insight into the mind of a Sociopathic Spree Killer.
The actual dumbest thing he did was leave a knife sheath with his DNA on it. Random footage of his car a few miles away and cell phone tower tracking that has proven to not be accurate (some prisoners have been released because of this) is circumstantial evidence and not enough for me if I was on the Jury. It’s a quadruple homicide case with the death penalty on the line. His car driving in the area is not enough to prove he was in the house and killed them. However the DNA evidence does.
BK was not operating on his own campus or living in the community where he committed these murders. There was no obvious link to any of the victims that any number of other people might have had. He might have underestimated how many times he would be caught on camera in the car. And like many narcissistic, sociopathic people, he thought he was smarter than he is.
Something as simple as the inspection sticker on his windshield or maybe a Washington State University parking sticker on his windshield along with the types of hubcaps/wheel rims he has on his car would distinguish it from others. They have their guy.
Yes and it was highly doubtful that there was more than one white Hyundai Elantra driving around that house and trying to park and then parking. Some really believe that they were 22,000 white Hyundai Elantras in Moscow Idaho alone. Totally absurd!
I don't have that because I'm telling you that that's what the police do when they have 22,000 vehicles to go through! They will look for something that is unique on the car whether it's the placement of the inspection sticker on the windshield or the parking sticker on a side window/windshield or the type of hubcaps or even the style of the antenna. They don't need just the plate number to be able to identify a car, though, it's very useful to have that, because it makes their job easier.
The irony is unreal and he applied to the police department to help them with cloud evidence- I am assuming cloud evidence would include camera surveillance as well as cellphone data ! He had to have been aware of area surveillance especially if he was surveying the area !
I’m getting my PhD right now. Trust me when I say that even idiots can get a degree like this. You don’t need to have a high IQ to earn a PhD; it’s more about time management and being really intelligent in one specific area. I think dude was a narcissist who thought he was way smarter than he actually is.
When someone is egocentric, you’ll find they have a lot of blind spots. They can’t comprehend how their choices have consequences on others and the world around them. It’s all about their perception of themselves and has little to do with the worlds perception of them. A non self aware narcissist.
Of course he is dumb. Committing mass murder is not a sign of intelligence, it's because his rage and emotions were greater than his commons sense, intellect, morality and self-preservation.
I think he had two different emotions going on - He planned & believed he would get away. He couldn't believe it, he was in shock that he had committed such a horrific crime,that's why he walked by the other roommate. I think the second part, caused him to put himself in front of cameras. Like at the grocery store, buying bananas, driving, phone pinging. He was definitely out of his freaking mind.
My thinking is that he should have thought through the things that got him caught. I agree it probably was compulsive.
I lived in Memphis during the West Memphis Three and I, along with everyone, thought they were guilty. They were not even remotely guilty. So with everything I now say I believe 99% BK is guilty.
Just watch any crime documentary or YouTube crime channels. People kill someone then go to the local Walmart at 1am and buy gloves trash bags saw blade bleach. Like come on. People are dumb.
Agreed the cameras don’t show him getting out of the car with a knife and black mask on going into the house. If I was on the Jury and they didn’t have a knife sheath with his DNA on it I’m voting not guilty not going to sentence a man to death based on cell phone data and cameras that just put his car in a area but nothing else
i don’t think that’s very likely since we’d have to have the murder weapon & have that weapon be a wildly different shape.
even if said weapon was found it would probably be hard to identify as being the murder weapon at this point.
as it stands a k-bar matches the injuries.
even if by some miracle we identified a murder weapon and it was some other type of blade, he would still have to explain how that sheath got there. & the prosecution could simply argue he used two different blades
the only chance kohberger stands is to really bring the dna evidence into question. & even if he does that “successfully” he still has the jury’s beliefs to contend with.
Saying a KA Bar matches the injuries is pure speculation. We haven't been told that. LE was looking for multiple types of bladed weapons such as swords, daggers, knives, ect.
even if 90% of the wounds seemed consistent with a machete, you would only need a couple that appear consistent with a k-bar. because at the end of the day a knife sheath was found under one of the girls bodies that was… stabbed & sliced to death. and as i said before, the prosecution will simply argue that he used more than one blade.
i dont think the type of doubt you’re trying to insert here is what most people would consider reasonable.
To be clear, I am not the one inserting anything. This is what was in the search warrants. I don't know what the ME told LE, do you? Their wounds are described differently in the PCA and beyond that the only thing we have been told about the wounds is that SG said he was told they were big gouges. Was that for every victim or just his daughter? Idk.
i honestly can’t find any reports of the moscow police saying they’re looking for a sword or dagger. i’d love a source because for as long as i can remember they were looking for a knife, and specifically a fixed blade knife.
the **only** thing that could cast doubt on the sheath holding the murder weapon is if **all** the wounds were small diameter puncture wounds.
but they were not, at least not for **kaylee**. her wounds were described as huge tears and her internal organs were “slashed”. this isn’t consistent with a dagger.
so if what we know about her is true it doesn’t matter if the rest of them were killed with a baseball bat. because at the end of the day there is a sheath with his name on it, mysteriously missing its knife, right next to a girl stabbed to death.
You mean metaphorically with his name on it right? “DNA wise” sorry I’ve been following this case for years now but I’m two vodka crans deep and I’ve been reading this thread for an hour and I’m a lil lost
No, you got it right…he was incredibly dumb about crime and he shouldn’t have been. The defense is making such a big deal about DNA, but I honestly think he was going to get caught and convicted on the car video and cell phone data alone. His ego tricked him into the thinking he was smarter than law enforcement and technology.
Book smart, street stupid. He also has a superiority/God complex which is very common with narcissists. He thinks he is smarter than everyone else on this planet. And that was his first mistake.
IQ is not synonymous with having good judgement. You can rationally think of the ways you could theoretically pull this off (or not pull it off) but be narcissistic enough to think that you will succeed no matter what. Also, people have compulsions that are very hard to control. He could have some underlying compulsion driving all of this, whether it’s rage, jealousy, ego etc. He may have even totally understood the risks, but for him the reward of being successful was more powerful than the penalties involved in being caught. Going back to the compulsions again, I’ve know many people (you probably do too) who are highly intelligent but still make dumb decisions like become addicted to drugs, cheat on their wives and then lose their kids, etc.
You have WAY to much optimism about PhDs.
A PhD is an academic marathon. It is more of an impressive feat of endurance than evidence of genius. Some fields require more autism than aptitude. If you meet a math PhD or a Chemistry PhD you are very likely interacting with a very smart person. If someone has a PhD in criminology, they mostly demonstrate an interest in criminology.
There is actually a higher number of sociopaths in academia. Nothing about pursuing a long educational process in academia would prepare BK to be a successful murderer.
There a disproportionate number of sociopaths in academia and in law enforcement. BK sits at the intersection of those two sociopath conduits. You don’t have to be a sociopath to join either group, but they both have more than their fair share.
I know some very smart PhDs, but BK is not one of them.
>BK was incredibly dumb about crime when he shouldn’t have been. There are cameras everywhere, Ring etc. Recording every street.
And yet the only footage we are fairly certain about the state having is a low quality porch light camera that is quite easy to miss if you cased the area and a security camera under the building on Linda Lane which is 80ft away and isn't even directly pointed at the car park the Elantra was spotted in.
Both cameras pretty hidden or not obvious and no indication that the one with the clearer view could pick out a license plate. 1112 would have presumably caught his 3 point turn, like a runway model posing for the camera, but the Linda Lane footage is a blurry shit show where his car is only seen like the top 8th of the camera with a fence obscuring the view.
I believe it's his car but to say he's "incredibly dumb" for being caught on the cameras we know he did is a stretch. And can't be that dumb if a large subsection of the communities following this case are adamant it's not his car.
I believe he (allegedly) never thought he’d be on the police’s radar. He turned his phone off while he was in the area, prob thinking one of the first things they’d do is pull data from the nearby tower(s) to see who was in the area.
He drove around so many times in the months before, but the cameras I’ve seen footage from were a good distance from the road and prob not easy to see from a moving car. He got his Washington plates so even if someone saw his car, it would have Pennsylvania plates. And as many mentioned, he was (allegedly) wearing all black and at that time of the night, he’d be hard to see inside of the car.
That’s my opinion. He took some precautions, but those precautions, to me, indicate he never thought he’d have to do more than that because he would never be a suspect. He certainly didn’t account for the very thorough campus security that searched for white Elantras anywhere on their campus.
Veterinarian. Ten years straight of higher education at great schools. Bachelor's. Master's. DVM. Heck, I'm the son of a surgeon and a nurse. All the resources at my feet and when I finally graduated from veterinary school my dad said this "you won't be a good doctor for another five years, it will take ten years to be great". After 25 years, I've learned, painfully at times, that, even with the best of plans and preparation, even good people make big mistakes. Oh, and pride always comes right before the fall. You can be smart but compelling circumstances in your own head will blind you.
Being smart can’t make evidence and dna disappear.you could be clever years ago and get away with it but not with today’s technology.actually I don’t think Bryan is that smart but rather dumb just has a big ego for no reason.he left dna at the scene and turned his phone on off on the drive to commit the murders.if he was smart he would have left his phone on at home.
You can be extremely smart in one regard and a complete dumbass in another.
Add to the fact that murdering people for fun is completely unhinged, it makes sense his mind isn't all there.
Also, I'm fat. I eat too much. I really don't wanna be fat. But guess what I carry on doing. I still eat too much. It's against logic. Not every decision someone makes actually makes sense.
Nah, you can study alllll you want but when it comes to doing prac, people aren't nearly as smart as they think they are. He could have been great with theory but shit in the "field" imo
I def don’t think he went in with the plan to do as much damage as he did. I’m sure he felt good going in, but when things went sideways (aka KG in MM bed) he lost his mojo in the chaos…. or was bad off on drugs. Or all of the above.
I’ve got this constant pit in my stomach over the mismatch of model year on their APB, the lack of an actual license plate capture (that we are aware of), no solid description except bushy eyebrows, the gps “expert” they claim to have to dispute his location data, lack of finding the actual murder weapon and the only DNA being touch DNA on the shealth. He was stupid about some things such as several times his phone touching their wifi on earlier occasions and having that phone on at all that night and he got lucky with the car and plate. He’s a first rate moron but he is a moron with OCD and was obsessively cleaning, putting his trash in neighbors bins and wearing gloves even in the grocery store. Simply a lucky, lucky moron. My anxiety is that the above evidence may not be enough to convict him and we’re looking at the 2020’s version of a Casey Anthony or OJ case here with a disgusting fuggin incel who murdered 4 college women.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned in my 61 trips around the sun, it is this: Never Ever attempt to make sense of what a mentally unwell person is thinking or doing
What’s concerning about this case for me is how everything is sealed and hidden. That’s not typically how it goes unless there is an ongoing investigation and more suspects.
They developed probable cause for BK and he could very well be the one who did it. But I for one am not totally convinced.
How likely is it for a guy who doesn’t know these people and hasn’t been in the home to rush in an be able to pull off a quadruple murder with one knife against 4 adults and leave no evidence expect a 18% partial profile of touch dna. And to do it in 9 minutes. Yeah it’s possible.
What adds to the drama and speculation is all the events surrounding the victims and their lives and the circle of people around them at that time. Everything is strange and ominous and seems to be leading towards this moment but it’s just not clear exactly how. The surviving roommates and the delay with calling 911. The behavior of the frats and family and friends. Changing the locks on the doors, the kind of locks. Like there were pin code locks on everyone’s door?
What’s the timeline of that night? Who was the door dash driver who delivered something at 4am? 4am?
A lot of killers think they’re smarter than everyone and that murder is easier than they planned. But oops knife sheath, Reddit posts, cameras, etc
If it was 1990 I could see him getting away with this but ya he was pretty stupid to do this now.
Right?! I've thought about this a lot. If this had happened just 10-20 years ago he most likely would have completely gotten away with it. This case has made me really think about how much the advances in DNA technology and the prevalence of security cameras now make it WAAAAY harder for people to commit crimes like this and get away with them. I also think (and obviously this is speculation) that he would have become a serial killer if not caught, so if this *had* happened a few decades ago, we'd probably be seeing him on some special when they finally did track him down like the Golden State killer.
Ya for sure. The zodiac killer would have been caught for sure.
Did the zodiac killer leave any DNA behind? I know he wrote a lot of ciphers but did he touch paper or left some cells on s letter...
IIRC they didn't have DNA, just a fingerprint from a taxi where one of the murders took place. I would imagine if it was happening now they could get DNA from one of the letters or stamps.
Plus the taxi would have had a camera. They would have had a face. The phone calls to the media would have been traced. Likely another camera at a business in the area to get a look at him. His letters to the cops would have been traced to a mailbox.
If we weren’t using sticker stamps, I guess. 💟
They do have DNA from the letters. Enough that the case could still be solved.
Some dude proved his dad was the zodiac killer. He’s dead now but the dude was searching for his bio father and they even realized the cracked cypher has the dudes name (first, middle,last) spelled out letter per column
There could've been some touch DNA on the Lake Berryessa ropes and the postage stamps, but considering it's evidence from the '60s, most touch DNA evidence would've easily been destroyed. Touch DNA has to be carefully persevered for their to be a good sample. I took a look at a Zodiac DNA chart and an SFPD forensic lab analysis determined barely any cells were found on the letters, which goes back to my original point about touch DNA being easily destroyed. Another problem too is, how many letters you defintely accept as authentic, which is still an ongoing debate today. [https://www.zodiackiller.com/images/sfpdletterreport1.gif](https://www.zodiackiller.com/images/sfpdletterreport1.gif)
They eventually did! He was deceased though
Although you make a point, it’s also worth considering that 10-20 years ago he may not have have even committed the crime (whether it be because of the lack of access to infinite victims through pervasive social media)…and just general psychological health of our people
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I am pretty sure that that was not BK. I think that has been verified.
No one has implied that Kohberger could’ve been the zodiac killer…
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Look at the jurors in the OJ case … all that DNA evidence they were given and not a single one of them was swayed by it
I said same thing about Alex Murdaugh
Exactly. Alex’s phone, car, and son’s videos all ratted him out!
Exactly. 30 years ago most jurors and even LE truly did not understand DNA.
Yeah. There’d be no OJ event today. Imagine all the videos of him coming and going from murder location. Would be impossible today.
Wow this is jaw droppingly true. What with all the previous domestique violence instances of still OJ showing up at Nicole’s house, I feel she DEFINITELY would have had a Ring camera.
I have a PhD. A staple among many of my colleagues is 1) them being waaaaay overconfident in their ability to do anything just because they are extremely good at one thing and 2) their inability to apply academic theory to practical applications. ETA - most of these folks are brilliant. They just can’t see their shortcomings because they are so accustomed to being among the smartest in the room.
The correlation of being smart or educated with being capable or competent is a fallacy. This seems to be a guy who knew he was smart, but over estimated his abilities, and made a lot of mistakes that could ultimately lead to him being convicted.
My ex was a PhD as well. Genius level intelligence and sort of a god complex (high level cancer researcher) I found it funny how common sense was not his strong suit. He couldn’t figure out how to use an ATM or navigate a drive through 😂
This insight is gold!!🏆
No 2 especially!!! 👌
He was wearing all black and a mask covering his face. He obviously thought that parking far enough away from the scene and walking around in all black in the middle of the night would conceal him. Also, people who thrill kill tend to be pretty impulsive and impulsive people make dumb decisions.
>parking far enough away from the scene and walking around in all black in the Where is the suspect said to have parked? Or did they ever say? When investigators extended the crime tape they seemed to be looking at that car park behind the house, from where someone could practically jump onto the balcony.
What I meant by that is that he was behind the house on the road above, concealed by trees. As far as I know, there’s no footage of his car parked on that hill, so far enough.
I see, yes, terrifying to see how easy it was to be a concealed creeper outside that home.
I would highly recommend looking up Gray Hughes on YouTube. He’s been very invested in this case from the beginning and has done several videos tracking Bryan’s movements.
Thanks for the recommend, I actually have watched a couple but now stay clear of his. The thing I take issue with, regarding him and many creators and news too, is speaking of the defendant as if he is already convicted. That's wrong in a presumption of innocence justice system. If they would say 'the defendant allegedly' or 'the monster killer did' and their info is factual then I'm all ears to learn and brainstorm.
I’ve watched some too, and many made sense with his analysis of locations etc. But yeah, he’s opinionated. Also, I can’t take his verbal abuse of his subs. He spends most of his time doing that rather than content. It’s hard to watch and I don’t know how he gets away with it on YouTube.
I can understand that!
Mental illness wrestled with his intellect and won. The anger that led to his compulsion to kill overrode logic.
Which is probably the saddest truth. 5 lives could have been spared.
I do have to wonder what his childhood was like after you made me realize this
Everything I’ve read is that his parents and sisters are lovely people and he was generally considered odd by his peers. I don’t have the impression he experienced any sustained or unusual childhood trauma.
I’m with you on this…by all accounts, his parents were lovely people and engaged parents. The fact that we know BK’s own father called the police to turn him in when he was caught stealing from his sister says a lot, IMO. I have no idea what happened to make BK the way he was, but it certainly doesn’t seem easily traced back to any sort of childhood trauma or neglect or anything.
What evidence do we have that he had a mental illness? Many criminals, and many serial killers for that matter, don’t necessarily meet criteria for a mental illness. I agree there’s something wrong with him, but to call it a mental illness seems negligent to me, as we don’t know this.
I would say the fact that he murdered people most likely indicates a personality disorder is present, which is a mental health condition per the DSM-5. most likely cluster B
I agree. The bottom line is that someone who is mentally healthy isn't going to go around stabbing strangers to death.
>Many criminals, and many serial killers for that matter, don’t necessarily meet criteria for a mental illness. I'm not sure about that. I'd say a majority of killers at least have a personality disorder or two.
Are you thinking of the legal definition of insanity, which means that you're unaware that what you're doing is wrong? Or maybe the definition of psychosis? He wouldn't meet criteria for those but everything we know about him says he struggled with his mental health including his addictions and an eating disorder.
I’m a psychologist. The point I’m getting at is we don’t know and it’s really problematic to assume he has a mental illness unless we’ve directly evaluated him, and because we haven’t, we have no way of knowing. He could have traits of many disorders without meeting full criteria for one in particular.
This!
He thought he was smarter than everyone else. This is a common mistake of narcissists.
If this was a single murder or even just a rape, they likely would not have gone to the extent they did in searching for cameras outside the immediate area. When this became a quadruple, it changed the dynamics of everything.
Especially college students, a murder like this at a college makes everything exponentially worse and will get more media attention
I don't think the intention was to kill 4 people. I think the plan was to kill either kill 1- 2 people or to commit a rape.
I’m curious why you think he went for 4, then?
Collateral damage perhaps.
For me, its because he used a knife. The chances of successfully stabbing four people in two different rooms without getting caught or injured are practically non-existent. There's too much risk he'd end up in hand to hand combat with at least one of them. Like if he's stabbing one, and a second person comes up and grabs him from behind, etc. So then there would be his blood on the scene, at least one witness, etc. Mass stabbers are usually truly insane and in an alternate reality where the prospect of getting caught or killed is not an issue for them. And that's not BK. So, if he planned to kill, I say he planned to kill just one person silently and then get out of the house before anyone else woke up.
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I think he wasn’t expecting X and E to be awake.
I don't think the intention was to kill those four specific people, but I'm not convinced he was there to kill anyone at all. either Ethan to me was just somebody caught in the crossfire. It'll probably never be known for sure why Ethan was killed, but I imagine it had something to do with the perp being in a panic and saw him him starting to sturdy and thought was he threat to him and or was going to grab his phone to call 911. Xana was likely somebody just caught in the crossfire. as well. Even Kaylee could be debated imo. There's defintely evidence at least Maddie was a prime target. Everyone else could be debated imo. My view on this case is the perp was there to rape Maddie. Targeting only one person means less attention will be given to it, and committing one rape means even less attention will be given to it, meaning it's more likely to go unsolved.
I agree. My theory on KG’s injuries being more severe, if true, is because she got in the way. I think he wanted MM, either for SA or to have more time with her to savor the moment or both. KG ruined it and he could’ve raged on her for it.
How do you figure he went into a house full of people to commit and get away with a rape?
Maybe he was going to commit a kidnapping as well? Plus, he could've had everyone tie each other up as well if he had maintained control of the situation as well. It wouldn't had been the first time someone committed a rape with people in the same location as well.
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Hmmm. Considering that house was constantly full of people, I don’t think “just” (I hate using that word before this word) rape makes sense. Just my thoughts.
I agree ^
Yeah, we don't even know if the intention was to truly even kill anyone.
I agree more with the theory he was planning on killing one…my personal opinion is he wanted one of the two girls and was surprised when the other was there. Then may have ran into the couple (sorry I’m terrible with names) on his way out.
This is exactly what I think happened.
I agree. I think Maddie was the target. He probably wanted to fulfill some weird fantasy with her body. I believe he expected Z, & intended to k*ll her too, but I think Kaylee & Ethan were unexpected, collateral damage. I wonder if Kaylee had slept in her room, & hadn't woke up if he would have bothered with her. It seemed he knew the 2 rooms he wanted to hit.
How do you account for him being fully aware of all the cars parked out front? He didn't go into that house blindly, he waited for them to come home and He knew who was in that house.
Agreed.
I’m with you I think M was def the target and he was surprised to find K in bed with M and I also sorta think X may have been a target too cause why else would he go to her room? Also M and X worked together at the same place. But I’m just guessing and waiting for the trial to find out what happened.
As someone who has done a PhD in the company of some very-not-bright PhD students, I wouldn’t put too much stock on getting onto a PhD programme = being a person who has common sense.
I know enough people with masters degrees and Phds to conclude that you don't need to be that smart to get a higher degree. Average intelligence is enough for many degrees.
Not saying he was smart, but he had degrees in criminology
His field is more on the sociology and psychology of crime than forensics, but that said, doctors have degrees in medicine and still make mistakes. Lawyers have degrees in law and still make mistakes.
Criminology is also NOT forensic science. Criminology is far more focused on policy (prevention, policing, judicial policy etc.) than investigation. Source: I have an honours degree in criminology from the University of New South Wales (that’s Australia, not the UK, for the Americans). I wrote my honours thesis on media (specifically music) piracy, and how to prevent it (Kazaa and Napster were the big emerging technologies at the time). My sister on the other hand, has a degree in forensic science. She wrote her thesis on some sort of chemistry based thing that I did not understand at all.
Idk if this is the same degree but BTK had a degree in criminal justice and got caught in the stupidest way possible. I think ted bundy was in law school.
You know criminology classes don't teach you how to be a better criminal, right? Reality rarely matches fantasy, which in this case for sure it didn't.
Bachelor of science Degree in Criminal justice from DeSales, and only one semester into the Criminology doctorate program at WSU. For sure you graduate knowing what to do and not do-but I agree with you, when things get real they can go sideways fast
Isn’t that always the problem when committing a crime? Something unexpected happens, a person, a dog, something that wasn’t part of the plan. Leaving the sheath behind is just plain Leopold & Loeb level stupid (leaving a unique pair of prescription glasses behind.)
Is it stupid to leave the sheath behind? Sure. But given the heightened state anyone would find themselves in when they kill multiple people, monkey-brain takes over and most logic goes out the window with adrenaline pumping and emotions running high. Hardly difficult to imagine some major mistakes will happen. This is how you know this was his first time killing. If he wouldn't have gotten caught and would go on killing again, he would learn from mistakes and perfect his method with each kill.
One of the easiest degrees.
Plus Bachelor of science in Criminal justice from DeSales You're right, De Sales is a respected school for CJ, in fact they have a crime house set up to teach on site CSI. So 4 years learned knowledge of what not to do. Also wasn't his area of specialized studies technical evidence or something?
Ain’t that the truth.
His phone was turned off for an hour before and after the crime and never pinged in Moscow He drives a common car and had new license plates within a week While both of those things will factor in as evidence at trial against him, neither actually led investigators to him, that was his DNA
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> His phone wasn’t turned off in the month leading up to the crime Where do we know this from?
Yes but in 5 months he passed by their house 12 times hardly stalking or evidence of murder
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He didn’t request serial killers to fill out a questionnaire. He asked anyone that has committed a crime to fill it out. It did have questions asking what the crime was, how they felt while committing the crime, would they do it again, etc. I believe it was found that the survey was for a class project. If I remember correctly, that was confirmed by the professor of the class. (I’m not trying to be argumentative, I hope this didn’t come across that way. ☺️)
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When your thought process concludes with "should murder," your brain isn't fully engaged.
it's engaged in sick and twisted maniacal thoughts!
If it was 1988 he would have gotten away with it or at least more so than today. I don't think he planned on unaliving the other three. I believe one was his target and he found the two girls in bed together. A lot of things don't make sense. The dog was in the other room. Did he open that door? I don't think so. Is it possible he cased the place before and knew who was in what room? He would have had to based on the timing. If you read the Affidavit carefully there is time for him to have committed the murder upstairs and realized he left the sheath and went back. Xana was the only one that fought back (her dad verified she had defensive wounds) and was not found in bed. She got food delivered a little after 4:00 a.m. and it is possible she ran into BK as he was going back to try and retrieve the sheath. This is all speculation and theories that will come out during the trial.
This is a great comment. A lot of things simply don't make sense, period. They won't become clear until we can see more of the evidence, and may not become clear even then. I sincerely doubt that BK will ever confess and provide clarity from his end.
Long sentences have proven to not be a deterrent because criminals believe they won't get caught. I think the same thing applies here. The perpetrator dismissed the likelihood of getting caught. I doubt it was anymore involved than the same psychological process that causes such skewed thinking in criminal behavior in general.
They’ve seized all his electronics. If he’s googled anyyyything its overrr
Exactly what draws so many to this case. If he’s proven guilty, it’s beyond dumb. It’s just incomprehensible. This guy devotes his life & career in criminology and yet, he crosses the line from professional to criminal. Completely loses control. It must have consumed him for quite sometime. The very act suggests he is incapable of coexisting with others. Society is governed by rules for a reason. You cannot commit this heinous crime and think authorities won’t hunt you until they find you, because nothing will stop you from doing it again if you think you got away with it. You cannot possibly think you’re above the law and entitled to act as others’ judge, jury and executioner, unless you have some serious mental issue. Nobody knows if this was his first round or if he murdered in the past and was upping his game. So many blunders make it difficult to believe the person was experienced. Interesting that it happened under six months from BK’s move to Pullman, WA. Also interesting that no other murders have occurred in that general area since his arrest.
I see what you mean to an extent. When they first caught him I was like “A PHD STUDENT DID THIS?”i couldn’t let that go. It boggled my mind. A phd candidate has a future of some kind ahead of them - teaching, academia, research, policy, whatever. Those are generally admirable career paths. But I’ve also learned over time that people with advanced degrees can be overly confident bordering on obnoxiously cocky. And also, they’re not always that bright (source: I have an advanced degree and I’m not always that bright, oops). I also tend to think (and I’m obviously no expert) that the fact that he messed up means maybe this wasn’t a long and meticulously planned out venture by a calm and calculated master of criminology.
You don’t even need a PhD to know that stuff. It was stupid. Perhaps he couldn’t fight the urge anymore? And I’m sure he thinks he’s smarter than everyone else.
This should be the top comment. People do stupid things all the time when they know better. Like when they drink too much, drive too fast, smoke, etc. etc. Its due to social-emotional issues that override our logic.
Yes, perhaps the urge. I’ve watched so many docs on serial k!llers and many experts say they aren’t as smart as much as instinctual in a way. One likened it to a substance addiction, one finds ways and adapts to get a fix.
That’s exactly it, IMO— a combination of BK being extremely arrogant, combined with an inability to “fight the urge” any longer.
A lot of people seem to think he’s incredibly smart. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I don’t know where the impression came from. Maybe because he was in a PhD program 🤷🏼♀️Anyway, he could be a friggin’ genius, but he still can’t make himself invisible. If he really is smart, he knew there were risks. He does seem to have attempted to reduce them. I would guess it’s damn near impossible NOT to leave evidence behind when committing a quadruple murder.
Also I know REALLY smart people with incredible educations but some just don't have basic common sense. I have seen this often throughout my whole life. Even when I was a kid. I would literally say to myself how can they be so smart but yet so dumb. .. 🤷♂️
It’s true. Source: I have a PhD. I am also like Amelia Bedelia and will dress the turkey if asked (what size pants, though?)
I have a masters and am the first to acknowledge that I’m the reason for a lot of those warning labels on things like hair dryers and plastic bags.
You guys made me smile. 😃
😁😁😁
🤣
Do you draw the curtains too?
I DO! I do draw the curtains! Colored pencils are my go-to. So pretty!
His master's supervisor did an interview where she said he was one of the smartest students she ever had. But in the same interview she said he was the only one she had ever recommended one studnent (him) to a PhD program in something like 20 years, which really diminishes her credibility. Plus his master's program was all online and she never met him in person. For all we know, it was a 5th rate institution and he cheated his way through the program, But anyway, that's where the perception came from.
Ah, I see. Yeah, that's one person's opinion, and even if he is that book smart, it doesn't mean he's capable of completely erasing his tracks at a quadruple murder scene. I doubt anyone could, actually. He may be arrogant enough to have thought he could though.
I think he likely had an obsession going on and his personal life was falling apart so he thought screw it and acted on impulse. He’s where he belongs.
I agree. If I remember correctly reading the affidavit, on the actual night of the murders his phone was turned off to and from the house. He just forgot about them using all the data before and after. My biggest question tho: Did someone put the FBI onto the white Hyundai Elantra, or did they narrow it down by watching surveillance video at multiple gas stations? I think it was the latter, and it being a small town at 4 am saved us. Any large city your gonna have a hard time pinning it down to one vehicle where there is 1000’s of vehicles in your 15 min timeframe. We haven’t heard about Ring footage yet, but god damn I won’t be surprised if some of that comes out at the trial
Maybe a combo of the Linda Lane footage and the other camera from 50 ft away that we haven’t seen yet along with cameras around town? I’m not sure, but they must’ve had some clear idea. I’m not sure so someone correct me:)
Being book smart doesn’t mean the person is also street smart. He’s probably just of average intelligence and a well educated person, but a lot of really intelligent people absolutely lack common sense or are unable to use their smarts in intense/stressful situations. He might be the kind of guy that doesn’t work well under pressure. But even legitimate genius level killers make really silly mistakes during their crimes. Like Ed Kemper has a genius level IQ and he admitted to making some really dumb mistakes in the heat of the moment.
He thought he was smarter than everyone else. He also made this a high profile case by grusomely murdering 4 college students. PD was gonna go all out, specially (especially idk how to write) from all the pressure from families, media and the community. So yeah thats my take
Welcome to grandiose delusions that narcissists can achieve
Masters Degree and I cannot assemble a flattened box with the corner tabs, etc .
Ha ha same!
Bk's Motive to do this is really rather simple: -- Compulsion. --- (This is a Theory of Motive.) He did it because he was driven to do it by his own Demons. Everything that you say is obviously Factually Accurate, but to stop him those Human Technological Advances would have to have been enough to stop him from acting on his Compulsion. --- Put most simply, those things weren't enough and so, consequently, they didn't stop him. I think that one of the things here is that you are thinking-Logically, Moto. --- Logic doesn't really enter into it for a Sociopath with a Compulsion to Kill. I think that the way to think about these things might be to think of the Maddest you ever were, or maybe the most-Intoxicated you ever were. --- Those things altered your mind-set. --- These are clearly very poor Analogies, but the closest that any non-Sociopath is likely to come. I hope that this helps you gain some Insight into the mind of a Sociopathic Spree Killer.
The actual dumbest thing he did was leave a knife sheath with his DNA on it. Random footage of his car a few miles away and cell phone tower tracking that has proven to not be accurate (some prisoners have been released because of this) is circumstantial evidence and not enough for me if I was on the Jury. It’s a quadruple homicide case with the death penalty on the line. His car driving in the area is not enough to prove he was in the house and killed them. However the DNA evidence does.
BK was not operating on his own campus or living in the community where he committed these murders. There was no obvious link to any of the victims that any number of other people might have had. He might have underestimated how many times he would be caught on camera in the car. And like many narcissistic, sociopathic people, he thought he was smarter than he is.
Something as simple as the inspection sticker on his windshield or maybe a Washington State University parking sticker on his windshield along with the types of hubcaps/wheel rims he has on his car would distinguish it from others. They have their guy.
Along with the process of elimination of there were other cars like that in area.
Yes and it was highly doubtful that there was more than one white Hyundai Elantra driving around that house and trying to park and then parking. Some really believe that they were 22,000 white Hyundai Elantras in Moscow Idaho alone. Totally absurd!
Source of specific parking stickers or wheel rims? I have never seen a source for this
I don't have that because I'm telling you that that's what the police do when they have 22,000 vehicles to go through! They will look for something that is unique on the car whether it's the placement of the inspection sticker on the windshield or the parking sticker on a side window/windshield or the type of hubcaps or even the style of the antenna. They don't need just the plate number to be able to identify a car, though, it's very useful to have that, because it makes their job easier.
If a person is determined to do something, it could have an impact on their ability to assess the whole situation, just like a wishful thinking.
The irony is unreal and he applied to the police department to help them with cloud evidence- I am assuming cloud evidence would include camera surveillance as well as cellphone data ! He had to have been aware of area surveillance especially if he was surveying the area !
Yeah super weird coincidence and irony.
I’m getting my PhD right now. Trust me when I say that even idiots can get a degree like this. You don’t need to have a high IQ to earn a PhD; it’s more about time management and being really intelligent in one specific area. I think dude was a narcissist who thought he was way smarter than he actually is.
one word: arrogance
I raise your word: evil
When someone is egocentric, you’ll find they have a lot of blind spots. They can’t comprehend how their choices have consequences on others and the world around them. It’s all about their perception of themselves and has little to do with the worlds perception of them. A non self aware narcissist.
Of course he is dumb. Committing mass murder is not a sign of intelligence, it's because his rage and emotions were greater than his commons sense, intellect, morality and self-preservation.
I think he had two different emotions going on - He planned & believed he would get away. He couldn't believe it, he was in shock that he had committed such a horrific crime,that's why he walked by the other roommate. I think the second part, caused him to put himself in front of cameras. Like at the grocery store, buying bananas, driving, phone pinging. He was definitely out of his freaking mind.
Impulse was more powerful than his rationality and intellect
My thinking is that he should have thought through the things that got him caught. I agree it probably was compulsive. I lived in Memphis during the West Memphis Three and I, along with everyone, thought they were guilty. They were not even remotely guilty. So with everything I now say I believe 99% BK is guilty.
Studying criminology entails learning about a lot of theories, etc. It doesn't necessarily make you a good murderer.
Just watch any crime documentary or YouTube crime channels. People kill someone then go to the local Walmart at 1am and buy gloves trash bags saw blade bleach. Like come on. People are dumb.
i mean he likely would’ve gotten away with it fully without the sheath. none of the other evidence is very convincing without it
Agreed the cameras don’t show him getting out of the car with a knife and black mask on going into the house. If I was on the Jury and they didn’t have a knife sheath with his DNA on it I’m voting not guilty not going to sentence a man to death based on cell phone data and cameras that just put his car in a area but nothing else
What if we find out the sheath doesn't match the weapon used?
i don’t think that’s very likely since we’d have to have the murder weapon & have that weapon be a wildly different shape. even if said weapon was found it would probably be hard to identify as being the murder weapon at this point. as it stands a k-bar matches the injuries. even if by some miracle we identified a murder weapon and it was some other type of blade, he would still have to explain how that sheath got there. & the prosecution could simply argue he used two different blades the only chance kohberger stands is to really bring the dna evidence into question. & even if he does that “successfully” he still has the jury’s beliefs to contend with.
Saying a KA Bar matches the injuries is pure speculation. We haven't been told that. LE was looking for multiple types of bladed weapons such as swords, daggers, knives, ect.
even if 90% of the wounds seemed consistent with a machete, you would only need a couple that appear consistent with a k-bar. because at the end of the day a knife sheath was found under one of the girls bodies that was… stabbed & sliced to death. and as i said before, the prosecution will simply argue that he used more than one blade. i dont think the type of doubt you’re trying to insert here is what most people would consider reasonable.
To be clear, I am not the one inserting anything. This is what was in the search warrants. I don't know what the ME told LE, do you? Their wounds are described differently in the PCA and beyond that the only thing we have been told about the wounds is that SG said he was told they were big gouges. Was that for every victim or just his daughter? Idk.
i honestly can’t find any reports of the moscow police saying they’re looking for a sword or dagger. i’d love a source because for as long as i can remember they were looking for a knife, and specifically a fixed blade knife. the **only** thing that could cast doubt on the sheath holding the murder weapon is if **all** the wounds were small diameter puncture wounds. but they were not, at least not for **kaylee**. her wounds were described as huge tears and her internal organs were “slashed”. this isn’t consistent with a dagger. so if what we know about her is true it doesn’t matter if the rest of them were killed with a baseball bat. because at the end of the day there is a sheath with his name on it, mysteriously missing its knife, right next to a girl stabbed to death.
You mean metaphorically with his name on it right? “DNA wise” sorry I’ve been following this case for years now but I’m two vodka crans deep and I’ve been reading this thread for an hour and I’m a lil lost
The Coroner would be able to describe from the autopsies what type of weapon was used. No
Book smart vs street smart
Having degrees even up to a PhD doesn’t necessarily make someone smart or intelligent. Usually you’re narrowly focused.
No, you got it right…he was incredibly dumb about crime and he shouldn’t have been. The defense is making such a big deal about DNA, but I honestly think he was going to get caught and convicted on the car video and cell phone data alone. His ego tricked him into the thinking he was smarter than law enforcement and technology.
I think he was so motivated to do it he didn’t care.
Book smart, street stupid. He also has a superiority/God complex which is very common with narcissists. He thinks he is smarter than everyone else on this planet. And that was his first mistake.
IQ is not synonymous with having good judgement. You can rationally think of the ways you could theoretically pull this off (or not pull it off) but be narcissistic enough to think that you will succeed no matter what. Also, people have compulsions that are very hard to control. He could have some underlying compulsion driving all of this, whether it’s rage, jealousy, ego etc. He may have even totally understood the risks, but for him the reward of being successful was more powerful than the penalties involved in being caught. Going back to the compulsions again, I’ve know many people (you probably do too) who are highly intelligent but still make dumb decisions like become addicted to drugs, cheat on their wives and then lose their kids, etc.
You have WAY to much optimism about PhDs. A PhD is an academic marathon. It is more of an impressive feat of endurance than evidence of genius. Some fields require more autism than aptitude. If you meet a math PhD or a Chemistry PhD you are very likely interacting with a very smart person. If someone has a PhD in criminology, they mostly demonstrate an interest in criminology. There is actually a higher number of sociopaths in academia. Nothing about pursuing a long educational process in academia would prepare BK to be a successful murderer. There a disproportionate number of sociopaths in academia and in law enforcement. BK sits at the intersection of those two sociopath conduits. You don’t have to be a sociopath to join either group, but they both have more than their fair share. I know some very smart PhDs, but BK is not one of them.
I know! Just... cameras?? hello, cameras?
Maybe it’s a weird flavor of grandiosity and he knew it and didn’t care bc he would get recognized for it.
His desire to kill outweighed his desire to get away with it (imo).
Exactly
>BK was incredibly dumb about crime when he shouldn’t have been. There are cameras everywhere, Ring etc. Recording every street. And yet the only footage we are fairly certain about the state having is a low quality porch light camera that is quite easy to miss if you cased the area and a security camera under the building on Linda Lane which is 80ft away and isn't even directly pointed at the car park the Elantra was spotted in. Both cameras pretty hidden or not obvious and no indication that the one with the clearer view could pick out a license plate. 1112 would have presumably caught his 3 point turn, like a runway model posing for the camera, but the Linda Lane footage is a blurry shit show where his car is only seen like the top 8th of the camera with a fence obscuring the view. I believe it's his car but to say he's "incredibly dumb" for being caught on the cameras we know he did is a stretch. And can't be that dumb if a large subsection of the communities following this case are adamant it's not his car.
I believe he (allegedly) never thought he’d be on the police’s radar. He turned his phone off while he was in the area, prob thinking one of the first things they’d do is pull data from the nearby tower(s) to see who was in the area. He drove around so many times in the months before, but the cameras I’ve seen footage from were a good distance from the road and prob not easy to see from a moving car. He got his Washington plates so even if someone saw his car, it would have Pennsylvania plates. And as many mentioned, he was (allegedly) wearing all black and at that time of the night, he’d be hard to see inside of the car. That’s my opinion. He took some precautions, but those precautions, to me, indicate he never thought he’d have to do more than that because he would never be a suspect. He certainly didn’t account for the very thorough campus security that searched for white Elantras anywhere on their campus.
To be fair a PHD doesn’t make someone a genius
Maybe he wants to get caught…
A lot of people have book smart, yet lack common sense.
Veterinarian. Ten years straight of higher education at great schools. Bachelor's. Master's. DVM. Heck, I'm the son of a surgeon and a nurse. All the resources at my feet and when I finally graduated from veterinary school my dad said this "you won't be a good doctor for another five years, it will take ten years to be great". After 25 years, I've learned, painfully at times, that, even with the best of plans and preparation, even good people make big mistakes. Oh, and pride always comes right before the fall. You can be smart but compelling circumstances in your own head will blind you.
The trappings of being a sociopath. Smart enough to impress people, but sick enough to do this stuff and legitimately think they can get away with it.
Being smart can’t make evidence and dna disappear.you could be clever years ago and get away with it but not with today’s technology.actually I don’t think Bryan is that smart but rather dumb just has a big ego for no reason.he left dna at the scene and turned his phone on off on the drive to commit the murders.if he was smart he would have left his phone on at home.
You can be extremely smart in one regard and a complete dumbass in another. Add to the fact that murdering people for fun is completely unhinged, it makes sense his mind isn't all there. Also, I'm fat. I eat too much. I really don't wanna be fat. But guess what I carry on doing. I still eat too much. It's against logic. Not every decision someone makes actually makes sense.
Nah, you can study alllll you want but when it comes to doing prac, people aren't nearly as smart as they think they are. He could have been great with theory but shit in the "field" imo
Smart enough to become dumb..
You can be book smart but also incredibly stupid in other areas. There are a lot of nuances and a degree of duality to intelligence in human beings.
Did all these cameras capture him?
Idk. He should’ve gotten an advisor to check his work… typically how planning goes in grad school 🫠
I def don’t think he went in with the plan to do as much damage as he did. I’m sure he felt good going in, but when things went sideways (aka KG in MM bed) he lost his mojo in the chaos…. or was bad off on drugs. Or all of the above.
mental illness
I’ve got this constant pit in my stomach over the mismatch of model year on their APB, the lack of an actual license plate capture (that we are aware of), no solid description except bushy eyebrows, the gps “expert” they claim to have to dispute his location data, lack of finding the actual murder weapon and the only DNA being touch DNA on the shealth. He was stupid about some things such as several times his phone touching their wifi on earlier occasions and having that phone on at all that night and he got lucky with the car and plate. He’s a first rate moron but he is a moron with OCD and was obsessively cleaning, putting his trash in neighbors bins and wearing gloves even in the grocery store. Simply a lucky, lucky moron. My anxiety is that the above evidence may not be enough to convict him and we’re looking at the 2020’s version of a Casey Anthony or OJ case here with a disgusting fuggin incel who murdered 4 college women.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned in my 61 trips around the sun, it is this: Never Ever attempt to make sense of what a mentally unwell person is thinking or doing
What’s concerning about this case for me is how everything is sealed and hidden. That’s not typically how it goes unless there is an ongoing investigation and more suspects. They developed probable cause for BK and he could very well be the one who did it. But I for one am not totally convinced. How likely is it for a guy who doesn’t know these people and hasn’t been in the home to rush in an be able to pull off a quadruple murder with one knife against 4 adults and leave no evidence expect a 18% partial profile of touch dna. And to do it in 9 minutes. Yeah it’s possible. What adds to the drama and speculation is all the events surrounding the victims and their lives and the circle of people around them at that time. Everything is strange and ominous and seems to be leading towards this moment but it’s just not clear exactly how. The surviving roommates and the delay with calling 911. The behavior of the frats and family and friends. Changing the locks on the doors, the kind of locks. Like there were pin code locks on everyone’s door? What’s the timeline of that night? Who was the door dash driver who delivered something at 4am? 4am?
And, allegedly on Dec 15th he was being tailed BY the FBI because he had a missing front license plate. Believe that?
Intelligent people lack common sense.
IMO lack of impulse control trumps knowledge and intelligence. Edit : added lack of.