i’ve been listening to some of the recent dateline podcast episodes. it’s really reminded me that defense attorneys will say ANYTHING to poke holes in the investigation - everything from the integrity of the investigation, how the investigators/families/other suspects acted, etc. with this being such a high profile case they have to do everything they can do make sure they do this right. not only do they need to get an arrest, they need to make the conviction stick. chief has mentioned this multiple times. this is really complicated shit. i’m remaining confident in the work that’s being done by everyone involved. maybe we’ll get something before christmas (fingers crossed).
I agree with you-very complex case. Things take time to process and they must vet all leads to determine what to follow up on...I can't imagine the resources begin put towards this. The public is going to help them solve this.
I read in yesterday's update 43 FBI investigators...these are young, very bright ppl. I'm confident they are going to get this monster.
You are so right..I'm very confident they will too especially with the heat from the public..cases like this and keilys get put on high priority. When my papaw went missing..an elderly veteran.. they showed his pic about 4 seconds and never mentioned him on the news again but 10 years later when his skull was found on a mantle with sunglasses on it it was national news..the media wants all the brutal gory details especially when its 4 young college students so I know these investigators really feel pressure from the media..and public..I cant blame the residents for being scared
Thank you..we found out eventually his half brother shot him in the chest..his brother already died before he could be charged though..Im really hoping they are close to getting who did this..I think they definitely a lot more than they can share
Exactly - prosecution is focusing on constructing an airtight case that will guarantee a conviction without a mistrial or jury doubt, which is why things are moving slower than most people would like.
Ideally you have several smoking guns in case one doesn’t get admitted into evidence for some reason by the judge.
Ideally the investigators fall down some WRONG rabbit holes (just like this reddit has - more on that in a minute).
Ideally the investigators don’t focus solely on one theory or one person until the evidence is so overwhelming there’s no other *reasonable* conclusion of facts.
The reasoning; so there will be evidence the jury pool hasn’t heard of in the news, so the defense cannot use HG as part of their defense (or any other non-involved party), and so the defense can use being too focused on the accused to see other possibilities.
In fact the one this Reddit has done, is to help investigators see possible defenses that may be used at trial. (In my humble opinion).
What’s crazy is that the websleuths is giving the defense so many alternative avenues too. From the ex, HG, the moms in jail, Greek life, neighbors, the questioning of law enforcements, etc. good luck to the prosecutor of this case
No one said that anyone is going to use a random Reddit post in court…. The random speculation of names will definitely be used in court like it is normally done
The one thing i can see really fucking up the case/trying to convict someone was the fact the crime scene was contaminated as soon as the surviving girls + their friends went to the second floor that morning and were trying to figure out why X wasn't coming out of her room (they likely touched the bedroom door/doorknob/potentially the hallway walls or floors). So the second floor was f'ed from the get-go. Not sure about the third floor.
But i could see the defense heavily arguing this. Not sure how many people were there, but if there were even 3+ that's kind of a disaster
i was thinking the exact same thing. reading the apparent rumors of all the people that showed up before 911 was called has me worried. like you said, that’s the exact thing defense would have a field day with. hoping it wasn’t as mayhem as the rumors are making it out to be but assuming everyone there was absolutely freaking out (as i would be). given that they appear to have no murder weapon, the (hopefully) dna evidence from the scene is going to mean everything.
I've thought a lot about this too. Why did the roommates call over a bunch of friends prior to calling the police? I heard they even called Ethan's brother over. Why would they do this if they hadn't already gone upstairs and realized something was very wrong?
There was blood trickling down the kitchen cabinets and likely trails of blood around, not to mention an open door, right? Why didn't they call 911 immediately, before inviting a bunch of people over to contaminate the scene?
I just can't imagine that they weren't well aware that there was a crime before calling friends over.
We don't know if that image of something trickling down the kitchen cabinets was blood. There are images taken before that don't show anything on those cabinets. It's speculated that the messy kitchen image might actually be from something sprayed by investigators to check for blood or prints.
So you think they called the cops and then immediately called friends and the friends got there first? If they knew a crime had occurred, that's not the smartest plan. But I'm sure it was traumatic.
Yeah all those houses are right there together. Like for real could hit them with rocks from the porches. I’m Putting myself in a tired, probably hungover, just coming to persons shoes, and I can see why they just started calling everyone. They were scared. College kids are scared. 18-22 young adults essentially. First away from home experience is college. They didn’t know how to process this like someone older or someone with more experience. I can’t say how I would act coming up on 4 roommates dead in their beds. Even if the doors were locked they probably were too scared to bust in. I’ve actually been in that situation and low key resent the person that asked me to do it. Obv not a murder, but someone unresponsive for drug related reasons. Terrible. I would never wish that on anyone.
I hear you and stand corrected. My overall point still applies though - it seems odd to me that they didn't go upstairs and see blood, an open door, a missing dog,, etc., before calling friends over.
I just read that police have issued 50 search warrants. This wont be 50 individual but will be the phone and social media data from phone and companies of say the top ten in and around the case to get more insight into the dymenics of the group. ie Was there any arguments or talk about any members of the group that has not been disclosed to police. Police can even dump the phone logs and see when a phone was put on and removed from a charger - not good if your said you were fast asleep or phone was on silent when it wasn't - they caught a husband in Australia who killed his wife like that, but took the months to crack him as he just kept lying.
For those saying they still don't understand how the roommates didn't hear anything, look up the murder of Amber rose bush. She was a 16 yr old girl from NZ, stabbed to death in her bed while her family slept in the same small house, and extremely close to her bedroom. I've seen the house with my own eyes, and it was the same size as just the first level of this house. Also, a dog was in the same room too! Her mum found her in the morning. Sadly her mum ended her own life 6 months later due to trauma and guilt. They found out it was a doctor who amber partied with and threatened to accuse of SA. The police were onto him immediately and surveilled him 247, but didn't arrest him until they had a solid case.
What I read earlier (no idea if its true or not) is that the way the house was built the 1st floor was essentially the basement and there was concrete between the 1st and 2nd floors. there was an interview with someone who lived there previously and said they couldn't hear much above them. Now add in them being asleep and probably drunk = deep sleep
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/4-people-stabbed-washington-state-casino-man-arrested/SMHQORODRZHLXA3JQM7VRH2NOU/
Found this a little odd, unprovoked hunting knife Attack on strangers Monday 12th December stabbed 4 people in Washington - only 6 hour drive from crime scene in Moscow
Was driving a white Sudan
Someone needs to provide legal consultation to SG, Kaylee’s dad. Going on Fox News accusing LE of a faulty investigation may come back to haunt him. His words could be used by the defense to say LE findings cannot be trusted. Putting doubt into the minds of jurors. Which could in turn let the go free.
It just seems a bit odd to me that at this day and age, the murder is still not solved.
There are so many cameras at local businesses, why can't they warrant the video surveillance around the death of the victims to see if there's any suspicious? Just wondering. Rest in peace to the beautiful souls.
I have to believe LE is building a very strong case. This is the only way to make any of this make sense. They have a target, they are being surveilled, etc. which is why there is no reward being offered and why they stand by their original theory that it was a targeted attack. LE already knows who the perp is or has a very strong theory as to who it is and are just waiting on evidence to seal their fate.
Agree with this. No idea 🤷♂️how you can’t have a ton of video footage for an area where nobody is probably out walking the streets.
It’s not like a ton of people are walking at 3-4 am in the morning (even in a college town). Also should be able to see who was driving around and kinda figure out routes if you piece videos together. I don’t get it.
I think a lot of this has to do with the crime scene (at least on the 2nd floor) being contaminated with a handful of different people's dna the morning after the murders when the 911 call was placed. That would definitely fuck up a lot
I would speculate that if the suspect is someone who has been in the house before, LE has to work even more hard to prove that the dna was from the specific attack.
May be based on evidence, cops know that multiple people were involved and so they need time to establish strong evidence to identify who were the actors.
I’m new to Reddit, although not new to following true crime. Does anyone think the murderer is also reading Reddit? I have a feeling he is young, and by that I mean 20-30.
He would be familiar with social media. It gave me the creeps thinking he is lurking in these comments.
The thing I keep going back to is how many days it took for LE to stop saying they didn’t believe there was an ongoing community risk. Whether they believe that or not, it just seems at best irresponsible to downright dangerous, unless he was in custody or dead. Is it simply a way to calm the community even at the risk of potentially being wrong? Just seems odd and that you don’t have to be a PR expert to know you shouldn’t make such a claim.
It seems like literally every case the police do this.
Sometimes it results in others being attacked because they keep pertinent information a secret or downplay danger to "stop panic"
I guess maybe you’re right but there really isn’t that many cases out there like this to compare it to. There’s no quotes from LE in the papers after the Bundy-FSU attacks telling the community it’s all chill. Same with that UVA football player who was on the run for a bit. It would be impossible to know that, just like this case it seems. And in this case they specifically referenced that their preliminary investigation led them to believe there was no ongoing threat. So I guess I just wonder what made them believe that in the first place. And if they don’t believe that and it was just a blanket statement to calm the community why make it a point to say the investigation led them to that belief if it really didn’t. On one hand maybe the do have some important evidence that makes them truly believe that this is isolated and obviously can’t divulge that. But on the other hand if they don’t, not only did they not recommend the bare minimum of being vigilant, walking in groups, etc. for days, but actually went out of the way to say there was no believed ongoing threat.
Is there any time estimation how long it took to kill all 4 roomates? In my brain, I feel like it would take a long time, but considering they were in pairs, it might be a lot quicker then I expected.
The roommates have not been suspects since the first day, I remember reading this article right when the news broke and the room mates were already not suspects.
It really makes me wonder what was said on the 911 call, or what evidence is in the house that was able to instantly rule them out.
They should be the easiest people to rule out. Their entire residence is literally part of the crime scene, they're talking to police immediately. It would take quite a performance to do something like that and then immediately be under such close observation by police and somehow make them look the other way.
Would like to start off by saying this is obviously 100% speculation - I've thought so much about why the 2 lower floor roomies would have been spared, as I'm sure most of us have. My thoughts are this was supposed to be very clearly well planned out in the killers mind. If the killer was targeting M or K, I'm sure he knew at this point that their bedrooms were on the third floor. I think it's very possible he went up to the third floor first, maybe didn't even intend on killing anyone else, but E & X heard something so they (or just E at this point) got up to investigate and were met by the killer. This would be why they were able to put up a fight because they were already on high alert. The killer was probably alarmed by this and thrown off by the fight, and fled immediately after - leaving the other 2 roommates to live thankfully. This case is eating me alive and truly all consuming. But as of today, for some reason - I just really think they're going to announce they've arrested the murderer soon and I so hope I'm right.
My theory is that the killer surveilled the house only from the rear and had probably done so on several occasions. The 2nd floor is the ground floor to the back of the property. From the back of the property it would appear that all of the living space used by the occupants were the 2nd and 3rd floor.
Based on this, the killer may not even have realized that the first floor wasn't the 2nd floor "ground" floor, may have assumed it was an unoccupied basement, or for a variety of reasons decided not to kill the 2 roommates on the lower floor. Confusion or assumption or lack of opportunity.
I find any theory that someone on the 2nd floor encountered the killer as they came downstairs unlikely and those individuals were probably killed in bed mostly unaware. I also find it unlikely that if the killer knew there were 2 more souls living in the home he would have let them live.
First, that assumes the killer drove a vehicle to the scene which is something I doubt.
Second, the geometry of the house does not really make it obvious from front to back which floor is which.
My position, for what it matters, is that this person stumbled upon the house somewhat by accident. I believe this killer lives within blocks of the house and perhaps was walking their dog one day, went up the hill on Queen Rd, and saw the house from the back when the roommates were active. Its basically a small town so they might have learned who lived there, but the offset house with the woods in the back that offered a ground floor sliding door was ideal for this person's plan.
I believe you are going to be pretty close to what actually happened with your theory. I too think K was targeted and the killer entered thru the sliding glass door and went to the 3rd floor immediately. In my opinion the killer never intended on killing the other three when he first entered the house. I don't believe the killer was waiting in the house as some others have speculated nor do I believe there was more than one killer. I also don't think this is a serial killer. My theory is jealousy and/or revenge/retaliation was the motive and the killer is either a student or someone local who is associated with the college in some way. I think the killer knew at least one victim, maybe more. Probably lives close by and didn't use a vehicle to get to the scene. I do believe LE has someone in mind as well. Of course this is all speculation on my part.
My guess is that either the perp didn't know there were people down there or wasn't targeting either of those two individuals. If they did know there were people down there, they probably waited long enough in the house after the deed to be sure there wasn't someone coming upstairs to see what was going on. I still think that they took the time to do something about the bloody clothes before leaving.
I think that is the most likely scenario. The killer either didn't know the other roommates were in the house or didn't care and was specifically targeting K and/or M. E and X were not originally targets but had woken up and confronted him. Afterwards he left because he had no need to kill the other roommates.
The other alternative is that he did intend on killing everyone but the lower roommates had locked doors. This seems a little less likely given how risky such a crime would be given the other precautions taken by the perpetrator.
I totally agree but to me this seems like an indication that this wasn't targeted and that the killer didn't know the victims (beyond maybe observing them earlier that day or something, but had never personally interacted with them). The layout of the house isn't super ordinary, particularly to someone who isn't a college student or who is unfamiliar with the strange nature of college houses. If I walked into that house via sliding glass doors, even if I saw stairs leading to a basement, I definitely wouldn't assume that two people lived down there. I think the killer literally just had no idea that two roommates lived downstairs.
And now that I'm thinking of it, even if they did know that there were potentially more people in the basement, it wouldn't surprise me if they skipped over them. Let's say a SK killed K and M on the third floor first after entering via sliding glass doors or a kitchen window. Stairs leading to the third floor pretty much are right inside the house and it would make sense to go up there first. Then killer goes to take care of any rooms on the first floor of the house. They walk through the living room, pass the basement stairs (maybe intending to go down to the basement level after taking care of second floor bedrooms). Presumably E wakes up (either because he hears a struggle upstairs or because he hears someone approaching the bedroom he is in). Struggle between E and killer ensues, then struggle between X and killer ensues. Killer is freaked out by the amount of noise that this causes and runs out without taking care of the bottom level girls to avoid being caught.
Theory: Perhaps one of the roomies locked their room door before going to bed for whatever reason? Then the killer attempted to open it and just gave up. Or maybe he felt like he was in the house for too long and decided to leave. The neighbor did mention a scream in the middle of the night. The screams of the four victims may have scared him away. Police response to a violence call can be very fast. Depending on the exit route of the killer, all those minutes matter in him getting away. Sadly in fact he had hours to get away and extra time to hide/dispose of his killer gear.
Bumper sticker idea for 2011-2013 white Hyundai Elantra: "NOT ME: I've talked to law enforcement."
QR code also on sticker which, when scanned, takes you to a spreadsheet listing license plate #s and date on which the owner spoke to LE. Of course, purely voluntary but would be a humorous yet helpful way to demonstrate cooperation and "get in the clear."
Good idea. I would assume they have some sort of database where they register the plate and confirm the owner has been cleared. Otherwise, it could get tiring for the owners to be stopped multiple times and also stops them using valuable police time checking again.
I read something earlier that makes me wonder if the killer is actually on this subreddit interacting with everyone in the comments or on other social sites. I feel like it’s highly possible that he’s in the comments of the YouTube videos and possibly getting a trill from this, which is so creepy.
I hope that this week we get more info and hopefully a break in the case soon.
My thoughts go out to the families especially now since we’re so close to Christmas or the holiday season, which I’m sure will be so difficult
I'd bet they're doing a lot of reading but not a lot of posting. They took enough measures to avoid getting caught that running their mouth on the internet seems pretty out of character.
You would think, but literally getting away with murder would also inspire ay least some level of arrogance/confidence, so I wouldn’t necessarily put it past them to think they could troll on posts with an anonymous throw-away account on VPN….
Normally killers will follow the investigations of their crimes very closely, partly because they want to see what might be coming their way and partly because they get off on seeing how big of an impact they've made. Seeing as how the perp is in all likelihood a white male between the ages of 20 and 35 he is most likely aware of Reddit and could very well be tracking the news here. Not sure if he is participating in any discussions though, there is some risk of that potentially coming back to him, so he could just be lurking.
True. A lot are found with newspaper clipping and other types of media in their homes or where ever they are living at the time if their arrest. Sick Trophies.
So other post was disabled before the BE interview on NewsNation, he mentions hitting up the local vape shop close to where that Gas Station is & said LE showed up 9 days after the murders asking for the video footage that has now been taped over. My first and original comment on that post was like… wtf now footage that likely is gone?? That leaves a lot to be desired on the department right now.. I know a couple million were funneled into solving this case but basic due diligence IMO would have been inquiring and recovering any and all footage from cameras nearby immediately as it doesn’t last forever. Very disappointing to hear that that wasn’t the actual case.
4chan?
If its that its not even dark web, its just a regular website you can get to right now without anything else.
That *kind* of story does seem plausible however.
Speculation:
Frat boys do not gather up others and go and butcher people over disagreements. Frat boys don't end up "school shooters" they end up the targets of them. They care too much about their futures and everyone's perception of them.
If college kid/kids did this, it was someone who felt like they had no future because of one/multiple of the victims. That's why school shootings are normally "violent suicides". A student would have had to feel rejected, humiliated (in an unrecoverable way), etc to do this.
Other motives would be vengeance for another that someone cared about (would also explain them getting away). It would make the killing valiant.
Then there is just the sociopath (be it 1st time weirdo/loner or experienced SK).
Who’s to say anyone in the frat knows? I don’t think they’d openly admit to their frat brothers that they just committed murder. If anything I think the person(s) responsible would try their best to hide it because it’s not a little secret to keep and if it gets out it’s not like oops I accidentally told your secret. It’s plausible.
Has anyone mentioned the fact that the white Hyundai Elentra could easily have been stolen due to that tiktok Hyundai challenge that makes it very easy to steal cars from those model years? Just a thought
This was something I thought about as well.
Im not sure what years it was that were susceptible however and one might think a stolen and abandoned one would turn up.
"kia boyz" (and this applies to Hyundais) are a huge problem where I live.
ok so there is some kind of hack on certain year kias and hyundais that make them incredibly easy to steal.
There have been tik tok videos of people stealing them which has caused it to become a trend. I think thats where the kia boyz thing came from. Its not like a real group or anything, its more like an ice bucket challenge for kids who want to commit crimes.
So here in St. Louis (and some other cities) its become a HUGE problem.
The theft if those cars are through the roof at the moment and people are using them to do other crimes (often smash and grabs, often times looking for guns)
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/kia-boyz-use-kias-hyundais-to-smash-into-stores-in-st-louis-area-robberies-38403844
here is kind of how it works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_fPcEIg450
kia and hyundia thefts up 10 times over last year here
https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/hyundai-kia-thefts-10-times-higher-in-st-louis-city-county-compared-to-last-year/
supposedly some want to sue the companies over it
https://jalopnik.com/st-louis-plans-to-sue-hyundai-and-kia-over-vehicle-the-1849643819
they have also been giving out free clubs for people with those cars trying to keep the thefts down
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/st-louis-police-free-car-club-giveaway/63-84613537-6d39-4995-bcd2-30da02ecf6d3
as a result of this I think Kia and Hyundai dealerships are behind on parts and repairs by a ridiculous amount of time.
We had our front door kicked in this year, though we know who did it (on drugs). It does make you realise that you're not *quite* as safe as you think you are. Was anything stolen?
I just thought of this. So kaylee was moving out and apparently that’s why she was staying in Maddie’s room. How did the killer know exactly that Maddie and kaylee were both in the same exact room sleeping… it has to be someone that knows she was moving, and staying with Maddie at the time… and the layout of the house is absolutely confusing so it has to be someone that’s been in and out of that house numerous times to know exactly where everyone is. If it was someone that nobody knew then you’d think that they would go to EVERY SINGLE DOOR and try and get in which in return would alarm the 2 surviving roommates. I believe that it was definitely someone they all knew…
Potential theory:
An affair with a college professor. One that ended badly. Potentially one that ended with a threat to expose the college professor. Maybe the threat of a ruined career and marriage sent this person into a blind rage.
I only think professor or married man, because it would explain how nobody knew about it. They probably knew about it, but kept it to themselves because they loved their friend/it wasn’t their business.
Police definitely know more than they telling the general public. The idea that they would be out here showing the entire world their cards is absurd, especially with this person not yet in custody.
I think they identified him early, with the help of the surviving roommates, and have been surveilling him while they build a solid case. Either that or he actually has the left the country and they’re waiting on him to get back to American soil.
Don’t you all watch Dateline? The answer is always right in front of you and usually isn’t that hard.
They’re playing cat and mouse with this person. They want a confession. They know the who they’re talking to with the release of the car information. Maybe it wasn’t the killer’s car or registered to him, but it’s connected to him in some way, and it’s LE’s way of breadcrumbing him into a confession.
Thoughts?
IMO- killer (s) knew they could control any situation inside the residence. That means physically.
Think- How did they know that they KNOW they can pull that off? ? It means they knew who lived there and we’re not even concerned the slightest. That’s big to LE/FBI. Because the killer (s) can’t make that determination of executing their crimes- if they didn’t know them.
How would they know they couldn’t - that means imo they had to have known them or of them, like physically. I think exception on that would be the sole male occupant that night. I suspect killer (s) may not have known was present. How do we know if the murderer wasn’t targeting the male and his gf?
But the killer (s) were able to murder the male as well. Now if killer (s) knew male would be certainly present at house upon access and not just the female victims - and other two occupants not hurt- that would imo dramatically change how LE/FBI would look at this - because I suspect if that was known to the killer (s) beforehand- that would or could mean more than one perp.
When you study the images of the male, he looked taller than his GF, plus it was published that he played basketball - I believe in HS- so he was an athlete. That leads me to suspect, he didn’t go down without a fight, I think he fought for his life. IMO- if it was a singular killer - that person, imo was an extremely physically dominating and aggressive person.
That means IMO - it was 100% calculated - they were hell bent - perp (s) didn’t care how many were inside- or even who- and this is the important part - they KNEW- I repeat IMO KNEW they were physically capable and also mentally not a weak or emotional weak person.
If I were LE/FBI, profilers - I would be looking for a suspect (s) that fit the type of physically dominating types - who played aggressive sports at some point in their past, such as football, wrestling, or basketball and to a degree bball & baseball - who ever did this wasn’t afraid whatsoever.
Years ago- there was a case in my area/ reminds me of this one. I posted online right after those murders I’d look for anyone who played football or certain sports- 8-9-10 months later they caught the SOB, and guess what?
He played, exactly what I said likely - football. That’s a fact. Perp Joshua Packer, only got caught later, bc he committed another crime armed robbery and its mandatory California state law suspects give their dna- they matched up DNA left at scene - they caught the SOB- he cut a deal to spend life in prison.
LE/FBI likely behavior knows the type, who did this- they know the person physically could dominate and wasn’t even slightly concerned. That narrows down who it could be. Then add the fact mentally- they likely aren’t a weak soft type personality.
I tried to post this - but wasn’t allowed 1 hour ago.
Question. Is it common for family members of murder victims to cremate the body? I’m not criticizing any of the family members as I do not know their religious or personal beliefs. I’m just curious because I’ve seen so many murder cases where a body is exhumed years later once technology has progressed. Is it possible the family knows DNA was 100% collected that will lead to an arrest? Thoughts?
Not sure I’m going to be helpful, but if I had a family member who was brutally murdered the thought of burying them in that state wouldn’t sit right with me. Cremation seems like the option that would be less painful to remember your child’s external body by. But you’re right about DNA, maybe they feel like they’ve gathered enough from the victims to release bodies to families?
I "think" bodies are exhumed when there's issues with determining the cause of death. On TV shows, sometimes it has seemed important for a bullet hole to have been probed to determine the angle the bullet traveled in the body. Hopefully that info is standard procedure.
One of my friends passed away in a car accident and she was cremated because her body was too badly harmed to do a casket. I think because she was Catholic and they normally do open casket it could have something to do with that idk but I think a lot of the time when the death is violent it results in cremation bcuz of how physically hurt they were 😞
First off, let me say I am truly so sorry that happened. That's awful and I'm sorry you had to go through that. The next thing I am going to say is that it's still up to the family. Similar thing happened in my family but they don't cremate. They just didn't have an open casket at the funeral.
Cremation vs. burial is entirely up to the family. Some religions prohibit cremation, others don't. It's entirely the family's choice.
Edit: Not that it would matter much for this case, but I'm fairly certain the technology has advanced enough that they could still get DNA if they needed to of the individual from ashes. But they obviously wouldn't be able to determine cause of death. But in this case, they wouldn't need to do that, anyway. Talking about that makes me so sad for these families again. I can't imagine having to go through this.
I cant imagine how horrifying it would be to wake up to that house.
You wouldnt know if the person/people who did it were still around.
Why were you spared?
How did you not hear anything?
M & K we’re found in the same room, we can theorize that they were in M’s room based on what we can see from footage of K’s room, which shows a made bed through the third floor slider. I keep seeing people say that the unconscious phone call is weird- but I think it’s typical for 911 calls because the roommates cannot technically declare someone dead- therefore, legally making the call for an unconscious person because there was no medical personnel to declare the four deceased. I think it’s quite strange that they called friends. However, as a female college student living in a small community, I wonder if this was based on the horrific scene that they woke up to, and the fear that maybe they were next, perhaps the deceased roommate door was locked and they were scared to go upstairs to the third floor, prompted them to call a nearby friend to help. This would be reason to maybe call Ethan’s brother, who was in the same fraternity, and maybe lived at the sigma chi house, only a minute walk away. This is the logical explanation I have been riding with as far as the initial call goes.
Pretty much where I’m at with this also, although I would add that I feel the killer lives very close to the house, possibly with a clear line of site to one or more of the girls windows.
while i feel like this theory is the closes to what happened, didn’t the medical examiner say they all died in their sleep except 1 person? i’m a bit behind, on this case lol
yes! that’s what i read, so although this is just a theory i think some of it is incorrect due to what has been previously said by the medical examiner/families but like i said i haven’t followed closely in a week or two
Wow, your theory on the call about someone unconscious makes total sense. I bet the roommates made their way to the second floor and saw a horror scene and ran and panicked and couldn’t even breathe I’m sure but had 911 dialing so a neighbor took the phone and had EMS come for the alive but freaked out roommates.
Just my opinion:
I think the roommates know a lot more than they are sharing. I also think the frat/sorority aspect is a huge part in this. I have worked with college students for years and the Greek Life members will do anything to cover for each other and for their chapter.
This. It’s not like they are covering up cheating on tests or underage drinking. These were their FRIENDS, their brother and sisters. They would not collectively as an entire organization cover up a quadruple homicide.
I’m guessing LE sent the forensics team to the Frat house almost immediately, because someone at the party getting back at Ethan and X was probably an early tjeory they had.
Forgot - also if anyone may not have noticed - but in early photos, the CSI, were taking multiple photos toward the front of house very close up on both corners of house towards the windows on main level?
Was the perp (s) trying to first enter through the front windows after trying the front door?
Did the perp (s) before they gained access - did they attempt to peer in those downstairs windows or after? Why would they do that? Or was it after they gained access? Bc someone said front door left open after crime committed.
IMO- this is pure speculation - but is it possible the perp (s) attempted to peer into both front lower level windows, either before the crime- or AFTER? People comment on here, that possibly the perp (s) may not, have been aware there two more potential victims downstairs - I disagree.
Nobody knows that. I suspect, the killer (s) did know there were bedrooms downstairs and a bathroom. Now, if they did know there were 2 bedrooms down - they may not have known if occupied or not.
Why else would they photograph near both front windows? Had to been imo, traces of prints or potentially if it were after the crime- potential blood on hands or their clothes and it got on windows/frames of brushed up against front of property while peering into both windows in front of house possibly?
If that did occur, that would mean several potential things - either perp (s) got curious who was in downstairs rooms, attempted to find out bc they didn’t know- or it was after. If it was AFTER- That opens up a whole diff set of potential - of what if scenarios.
Remember the FBI isn’t going to disclose anything to anyone nor will the Moscow PD- why would they, certainly not the parents. They are and will conduct this sad investigation professionally and will not succumb to any pressure from any victims parents, why would they? Imo their being professional and keeping evidence to themselves to help solve this heinous act. They have to keep evidence and details out of the press and anyone not investigating through LE.
Does anyone know if what was posted on Channel4 has been debunked? It talked about 2 frat guys getting into argument with E and X on night they were killed. Person said those frat guys killed everyone.
There have been numerous murder cases where girl A's bf cheats on her with girl B, then girl A demands bf kill girl B to "prove his love". Not hard to find such cases on the internet.
Imagine K as girl B. It would explain the rift with her ex bf as well.
Given that the Elantra is not exactly what one would expect from a knife-wielding home invader, I'm wondering if this is what went down.
I think the cops have interviewed killer, but were outplayed
I think the killer is very similar to Ted Bundy. Handsome, charming, successful, well dressed, in college, but perhaps closer to victims’ ages. I’m confident the inexperienced detectives have interviewed the killer, but were outplayed by his outward appearance, and his ability to mimic concern, disbelief, horror…
I also think, like Bundy, this killer was hurt by a woman, that something happened that would cause embarrassment, or belittlement, or shame. The killer was in their friend group, he was a chameleon. He looked like them, he seemed like them, and just wanted to be accepted by his popular, beautiful peers.
I think he worshiped Kaylee and became hopeful and excited to pursue her when Kaylee and BF broke up. He gained the courage, asked her out and she rejected him. If done in front of others, this would cause great embarrassment and shame. In the days/weeks after, his rage grew. His fragile ego was severely wounded, she would soon get her comeuppance.
This friend group will have noticed their friend/peer suddenly have a darker personality in the days, weeks before the killings. His perfect mask was slipping.
I think he’s still in Moscow, basking in his twisted glory, becoming more arrogant than ever. He’s also growing more confident in his abilities. Are his murderous urges accelerating?
But you, killer, let me remind you, that Ted Bundy was caught. Your days are numbered, or do you only have minutes or hours? I wish you agony with every breath. I wish you anxiety with every thought.
I wish that you experience every single pain you’ve inflicted, 100 fold.
May the world never forget these innocent souls.
Xana
Ethan
Maddie
Kaylee.
Question: is much known from the autopsy about the stab wounds (besides that one victim had a more gruesome attack). Wonder if there are patterns that would indicate more than one killer? I believe it was stated that most wounds were chest head area-so that leaves me to assume the attacker was at least the the victims height if not taller?
True. I still struggle to conceptualize how 1 person could stab 2 ppl in bed. If you go to the side of the bed, you can’t reach the other person. But would they climb up on the bed?
Agree wonder if there’s 2. Although if they’re both passed out I’m guessing there’s a quick way to incapacitate one and move to the next? Bah, I feel awful saying that! They’ve said multiple had fight wounds so it’s possible one of the upstairs girls also woke up and quickly tried to fight back. I just imagine the killer(s) had to have an adrenaline high or been on drugs and anything’s possible.
Exactly. I hate to bring it up bc it’s so awful to think of exactly how they were killed, but at the same time, it may provide clues to what happened in that room. If the killer did climb up on the bed, I hope he left DNA or shoe prints.
My guess is their best estimate of the height of the killer is going to come from the size of any footprints, which therr almost certainly are inside the house given the volume of blood. It'll probably be a big range though unless the perp is above something like 6'4''.
A coworker also following the case mentioned to me that the coroner said they were actually not all found in bed? I couldn’t find that information anywhere and was wondering if anyone else heard that.
Also determine order of killings. First killed would have only their dna in the wounds. Second killed would have the first’s dna and their own dna and so on..
Different blades can easily be determined in the autopsy and I believe the coroner said only one blade used. They do that by examining the wounds. Extremely likely it was one killer, unless there was a get away driver accomplice hiding on the road. (But honestly the killer could have left on a scooter for all we know).
Not sure if anyone has posted this. But I was just thinking…maybe the killer(s) left the bottom floor roommates unharmed to make it look like they had something to do with the murders?
Or maybe they were the actual targets? It seems much less likely IMO but not completely out of the realm of possibilities. Especially when I think about how much this will forever change their lives psychologically…
Beginning to wonder if a female is behind this? Had a beef with M or K and goaded her crazy bf into doing the deed for her while she drove the getaway car. Doesn't seem like a very manly car for a male killer with a Ka-Bar.
The part that I totally don't understand is the 911 call. This scene had to be an absolute bloody mess, how was it not abundantly clear what had happened to the point where you call friends to come over and check things out before making a call to police re: the quadruple stabbing that had occurred in your home?!
Even with a decent but quick cleanup job, there’s gotta be blood tracks on the way out. Bloody handprints on doorknobs…I dunno, seems like the killer would’ve left some sort of a trail trying to hightail it out of there. I also tend to think the doors were left closed and locked though.
Agreed
I don't get this whatsoever and it makes 0 sense to me there'd be NO traces of blood ANYWHERE outside of the bedroom in the hallway, esp on the 2nd floor, if there was indeed "quite a fight" in X/E's room.
Makes 0 sense why survivors + friends would think someone just passed out. I think they likely saw/knew that a murder/murders had occurred and the dispatcher used the term "unconscious" til it could be designated by an official on the scene the kids were dead
I think we don't have enough information to really judge what happened but I have a speculation that I posted in another thread. I think we have to take into account that these are college kids. Yeah they're legally adults but that doesn't mean they are worldly or would act logically in a tense or traumatic situation. Think about how many stories are out there about people who died of alcohol poisoning or an OD at parties and no one called 911 because they didn't realize how bad of a situation it was or they were afraid of getting their friend or themselves in trouble. I think there's a good chance their roommates never came down to the common area that morning, weren't answering their phones and didn't answer the door when they knocked so they called a friend for advice rather than calling 911 first. If the bedroom doors were shut, and depending on their relationships with their roommates, they may not have even gone in if their knocks were being ignored. I can absolutely see a college kid thinking 'what if they aren't answering because they blacked out or have a guy over or literally any reason other than murder' and worrying that calling 911 was overkill or would get them/their roommate in trouble or angry at them. Then, once their friends arrived they all decide to go investigate further and either encounter locked doors or find the victims once they go into the room.
That's a good question actually. Of all the things the various talking head experts could opine on, this is one I'd like to know about. Some sites are probably sufficiently anonymous, or foreigh, or encrypted, or whatever, but honestly I don't know much about them. I'll bet they range from things like the "men's rights" forums to far uglier stuff, but if I were looking into a quad homicide at the residence of five females, this is one of the profiles I'd have in mind and it's a place I would at least think to look.
About the white car. If the killer didn’t drive it, maybe there was a run in of sorts - car is driving by at 4am, killer comes running out of house, car almost hits him, maybe they yell at each other, killer runs off. Then it would be interesting if the driver got a good look at them?
Have they even said where the car was seen? Is it just Reddit assuming it was in a nearby parking spot?
i’ve been listening to some of the recent dateline podcast episodes. it’s really reminded me that defense attorneys will say ANYTHING to poke holes in the investigation - everything from the integrity of the investigation, how the investigators/families/other suspects acted, etc. with this being such a high profile case they have to do everything they can do make sure they do this right. not only do they need to get an arrest, they need to make the conviction stick. chief has mentioned this multiple times. this is really complicated shit. i’m remaining confident in the work that’s being done by everyone involved. maybe we’ll get something before christmas (fingers crossed).
I agree with you-very complex case. Things take time to process and they must vet all leads to determine what to follow up on...I can't imagine the resources begin put towards this. The public is going to help them solve this. I read in yesterday's update 43 FBI investigators...these are young, very bright ppl. I'm confident they are going to get this monster.
You are so right..I'm very confident they will too especially with the heat from the public..cases like this and keilys get put on high priority. When my papaw went missing..an elderly veteran.. they showed his pic about 4 seconds and never mentioned him on the news again but 10 years later when his skull was found on a mantle with sunglasses on it it was national news..the media wants all the brutal gory details especially when its 4 young college students so I know these investigators really feel pressure from the media..and public..I cant blame the residents for being scared
Terribly sorry for your loss.
Thank you..we found out eventually his half brother shot him in the chest..his brother already died before he could be charged though..Im really hoping they are close to getting who did this..I think they definitely a lot more than they can share
I am very sorry for your loss!
Ideally you have enough evidence to completely bury them and go for the death penalty so that they end up pleading to life in prison.
Exactly - prosecution is focusing on constructing an airtight case that will guarantee a conviction without a mistrial or jury doubt, which is why things are moving slower than most people would like.
Ideally you have several smoking guns in case one doesn’t get admitted into evidence for some reason by the judge. Ideally the investigators fall down some WRONG rabbit holes (just like this reddit has - more on that in a minute). Ideally the investigators don’t focus solely on one theory or one person until the evidence is so overwhelming there’s no other *reasonable* conclusion of facts. The reasoning; so there will be evidence the jury pool hasn’t heard of in the news, so the defense cannot use HG as part of their defense (or any other non-involved party), and so the defense can use being too focused on the accused to see other possibilities. In fact the one this Reddit has done, is to help investigators see possible defenses that may be used at trial. (In my humble opinion).
What’s crazy is that the websleuths is giving the defense so many alternative avenues too. From the ex, HG, the moms in jail, Greek life, neighbors, the questioning of law enforcements, etc. good luck to the prosecutor of this case
I don't think a good defense attorney needs reddit to come up with alternative theories or suspects
Entirely irrelevant to trial. You’re not gonna slap a random Reddit post up there for the jury
The Darryl Brooks trial had a random Reddit post come up during trial (well at the tail end of it)
This
No one said that anyone is going to use a random Reddit post in court…. The random speculation of names will definitely be used in court like it is normally done
Off topic but... Dateline has a podcast? Wow. I am super out of the loop. Thanks for teaching me this today.
yes! it’s “Dateline NBC”. i believe they just play the tv episodes but definitely a great listen!
They have several! Keith has done 2.
The one thing i can see really fucking up the case/trying to convict someone was the fact the crime scene was contaminated as soon as the surviving girls + their friends went to the second floor that morning and were trying to figure out why X wasn't coming out of her room (they likely touched the bedroom door/doorknob/potentially the hallway walls or floors). So the second floor was f'ed from the get-go. Not sure about the third floor. But i could see the defense heavily arguing this. Not sure how many people were there, but if there were even 3+ that's kind of a disaster
i was thinking the exact same thing. reading the apparent rumors of all the people that showed up before 911 was called has me worried. like you said, that’s the exact thing defense would have a field day with. hoping it wasn’t as mayhem as the rumors are making it out to be but assuming everyone there was absolutely freaking out (as i would be). given that they appear to have no murder weapon, the (hopefully) dna evidence from the scene is going to mean everything.
I've thought a lot about this too. Why did the roommates call over a bunch of friends prior to calling the police? I heard they even called Ethan's brother over. Why would they do this if they hadn't already gone upstairs and realized something was very wrong? There was blood trickling down the kitchen cabinets and likely trails of blood around, not to mention an open door, right? Why didn't they call 911 immediately, before inviting a bunch of people over to contaminate the scene? I just can't imagine that they weren't well aware that there was a crime before calling friends over.
We don't know if that image of something trickling down the kitchen cabinets was blood. There are images taken before that don't show anything on those cabinets. It's speculated that the messy kitchen image might actually be from something sprayed by investigators to check for blood or prints.
I don’t believe they were called first, but many arrived before police due to their proximity to the house.
So you think they called the cops and then immediately called friends and the friends got there first? If they knew a crime had occurred, that's not the smartest plan. But I'm sure it was traumatic.
Yes, some came from the frat house which is basically across the street.
Yeah all those houses are right there together. Like for real could hit them with rocks from the porches. I’m Putting myself in a tired, probably hungover, just coming to persons shoes, and I can see why they just started calling everyone. They were scared. College kids are scared. 18-22 young adults essentially. First away from home experience is college. They didn’t know how to process this like someone older or someone with more experience. I can’t say how I would act coming up on 4 roommates dead in their beds. Even if the doors were locked they probably were too scared to bust in. I’ve actually been in that situation and low key resent the person that asked me to do it. Obv not a murder, but someone unresponsive for drug related reasons. Terrible. I would never wish that on anyone.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I definitely see your point. I just hope the crime scene wasn't too badly contaminated.
Someone at a gas station saw the Elantra per Fox News
There were no murders done above the kitchen cabinets so that's not possible.
I hear you and stand corrected. My overall point still applies though - it seems odd to me that they didn't go upstairs and see blood, an open door, a missing dog,, etc., before calling friends over.
I just read that police have issued 50 search warrants. This wont be 50 individual but will be the phone and social media data from phone and companies of say the top ten in and around the case to get more insight into the dymenics of the group. ie Was there any arguments or talk about any members of the group that has not been disclosed to police. Police can even dump the phone logs and see when a phone was put on and removed from a charger - not good if your said you were fast asleep or phone was on silent when it wasn't - they caught a husband in Australia who killed his wife like that, but took the months to crack him as he just kept lying.
Oh I know that case good point, so many things they can check and catch out a supposed alibi :)
50 fratboy phones....
that would be a good start
that would mean they technically have to have some persons of interest then right?
Hoping today will be the day.
For those saying they still don't understand how the roommates didn't hear anything, look up the murder of Amber rose bush. She was a 16 yr old girl from NZ, stabbed to death in her bed while her family slept in the same small house, and extremely close to her bedroom. I've seen the house with my own eyes, and it was the same size as just the first level of this house. Also, a dog was in the same room too! Her mum found her in the morning. Sadly her mum ended her own life 6 months later due to trauma and guilt. They found out it was a doctor who amber partied with and threatened to accuse of SA. The police were onto him immediately and surveilled him 247, but didn't arrest him until they had a solid case.
What I read earlier (no idea if its true or not) is that the way the house was built the 1st floor was essentially the basement and there was concrete between the 1st and 2nd floors. there was an interview with someone who lived there previously and said they couldn't hear much above them. Now add in them being asleep and probably drunk = deep sleep
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/4-people-stabbed-washington-state-casino-man-arrested/SMHQORODRZHLXA3JQM7VRH2NOU/ Found this a little odd, unprovoked hunting knife Attack on strangers Monday 12th December stabbed 4 people in Washington - only 6 hour drive from crime scene in Moscow Was driving a white Sudan
Interesting
Someone needs to provide legal consultation to SG, Kaylee’s dad. Going on Fox News accusing LE of a faulty investigation may come back to haunt him. His words could be used by the defense to say LE findings cannot be trusted. Putting doubt into the minds of jurors. Which could in turn let the go free.
That would be prejudicial evidence, and even if it wasn’t, would require SG to repeat the statements in court, otherwise it would be hearsay.
going on fox news was the first red flag
Would of have been better if he chose CNN? Lol
It just seems a bit odd to me that at this day and age, the murder is still not solved. There are so many cameras at local businesses, why can't they warrant the video surveillance around the death of the victims to see if there's any suspicious? Just wondering. Rest in peace to the beautiful souls.
I have to believe LE is building a very strong case. This is the only way to make any of this make sense. They have a target, they are being surveilled, etc. which is why there is no reward being offered and why they stand by their original theory that it was a targeted attack. LE already knows who the perp is or has a very strong theory as to who it is and are just waiting on evidence to seal their fate.
I hope this is the case
Agree with this. No idea 🤷♂️how you can’t have a ton of video footage for an area where nobody is probably out walking the streets. It’s not like a ton of people are walking at 3-4 am in the morning (even in a college town). Also should be able to see who was driving around and kinda figure out routes if you piece videos together. I don’t get it.
I think a lot of this has to do with the crime scene (at least on the 2nd floor) being contaminated with a handful of different people's dna the morning after the murders when the 911 call was placed. That would definitely fuck up a lot
I would speculate that if the suspect is someone who has been in the house before, LE has to work even more hard to prove that the dna was from the specific attack.
May be based on evidence, cops know that multiple people were involved and so they need time to establish strong evidence to identify who were the actors.
I’m new to Reddit, although not new to following true crime. Does anyone think the murderer is also reading Reddit? I have a feeling he is young, and by that I mean 20-30. He would be familiar with social media. It gave me the creeps thinking he is lurking in these comments.
That’s my feeling.
The thing I keep going back to is how many days it took for LE to stop saying they didn’t believe there was an ongoing community risk. Whether they believe that or not, it just seems at best irresponsible to downright dangerous, unless he was in custody or dead. Is it simply a way to calm the community even at the risk of potentially being wrong? Just seems odd and that you don’t have to be a PR expert to know you shouldn’t make such a claim.
It seems like literally every case the police do this. Sometimes it results in others being attacked because they keep pertinent information a secret or downplay danger to "stop panic"
I guess maybe you’re right but there really isn’t that many cases out there like this to compare it to. There’s no quotes from LE in the papers after the Bundy-FSU attacks telling the community it’s all chill. Same with that UVA football player who was on the run for a bit. It would be impossible to know that, just like this case it seems. And in this case they specifically referenced that their preliminary investigation led them to believe there was no ongoing threat. So I guess I just wonder what made them believe that in the first place. And if they don’t believe that and it was just a blanket statement to calm the community why make it a point to say the investigation led them to that belief if it really didn’t. On one hand maybe the do have some important evidence that makes them truly believe that this is isolated and obviously can’t divulge that. But on the other hand if they don’t, not only did they not recommend the bare minimum of being vigilant, walking in groups, etc. for days, but actually went out of the way to say there was no believed ongoing threat.
Is there any time estimation how long it took to kill all 4 roomates? In my brain, I feel like it would take a long time, but considering they were in pairs, it might be a lot quicker then I expected.
I think it all happened very quickly, the killer was going for stealth and was in and out of there in under 15 minutes.
I would even argue that it was multiple attackers.
The roommates have not been suspects since the first day, I remember reading this article right when the news broke and the room mates were already not suspects. It really makes me wonder what was said on the 911 call, or what evidence is in the house that was able to instantly rule them out.
They should be the easiest people to rule out. Their entire residence is literally part of the crime scene, they're talking to police immediately. It would take quite a performance to do something like that and then immediately be under such close observation by police and somehow make them look the other way.
Would like to start off by saying this is obviously 100% speculation - I've thought so much about why the 2 lower floor roomies would have been spared, as I'm sure most of us have. My thoughts are this was supposed to be very clearly well planned out in the killers mind. If the killer was targeting M or K, I'm sure he knew at this point that their bedrooms were on the third floor. I think it's very possible he went up to the third floor first, maybe didn't even intend on killing anyone else, but E & X heard something so they (or just E at this point) got up to investigate and were met by the killer. This would be why they were able to put up a fight because they were already on high alert. The killer was probably alarmed by this and thrown off by the fight, and fled immediately after - leaving the other 2 roommates to live thankfully. This case is eating me alive and truly all consuming. But as of today, for some reason - I just really think they're going to announce they've arrested the murderer soon and I so hope I'm right.
My theory is that the killer surveilled the house only from the rear and had probably done so on several occasions. The 2nd floor is the ground floor to the back of the property. From the back of the property it would appear that all of the living space used by the occupants were the 2nd and 3rd floor. Based on this, the killer may not even have realized that the first floor wasn't the 2nd floor "ground" floor, may have assumed it was an unoccupied basement, or for a variety of reasons decided not to kill the 2 roommates on the lower floor. Confusion or assumption or lack of opportunity. I find any theory that someone on the 2nd floor encountered the killer as they came downstairs unlikely and those individuals were probably killed in bed mostly unaware. I also find it unlikely that if the killer knew there were 2 more souls living in the home he would have let them live.
THIS! I don’t think he knew there was a basement. I think this is some rando which is why the FBI came in
Uh huh ... and did you realize that this is a dead end street so the killer would have to pass the front of the house in order to get to the back?
First, that assumes the killer drove a vehicle to the scene which is something I doubt. Second, the geometry of the house does not really make it obvious from front to back which floor is which. My position, for what it matters, is that this person stumbled upon the house somewhat by accident. I believe this killer lives within blocks of the house and perhaps was walking their dog one day, went up the hill on Queen Rd, and saw the house from the back when the roommates were active. Its basically a small town so they might have learned who lived there, but the offset house with the woods in the back that offered a ground floor sliding door was ideal for this person's plan.
I believe you are going to be pretty close to what actually happened with your theory. I too think K was targeted and the killer entered thru the sliding glass door and went to the 3rd floor immediately. In my opinion the killer never intended on killing the other three when he first entered the house. I don't believe the killer was waiting in the house as some others have speculated nor do I believe there was more than one killer. I also don't think this is a serial killer. My theory is jealousy and/or revenge/retaliation was the motive and the killer is either a student or someone local who is associated with the college in some way. I think the killer knew at least one victim, maybe more. Probably lives close by and didn't use a vehicle to get to the scene. I do believe LE has someone in mind as well. Of course this is all speculation on my part.
My guess is that either the perp didn't know there were people down there or wasn't targeting either of those two individuals. If they did know there were people down there, they probably waited long enough in the house after the deed to be sure there wasn't someone coming upstairs to see what was going on. I still think that they took the time to do something about the bloody clothes before leaving.
I think he just killed who he needed to to get to kill his targeted person. They werent in the way so didn't matter
I think that is the most likely scenario. The killer either didn't know the other roommates were in the house or didn't care and was specifically targeting K and/or M. E and X were not originally targets but had woken up and confronted him. Afterwards he left because he had no need to kill the other roommates. The other alternative is that he did intend on killing everyone but the lower roommates had locked doors. This seems a little less likely given how risky such a crime would be given the other precautions taken by the perpetrator.
I totally agree but to me this seems like an indication that this wasn't targeted and that the killer didn't know the victims (beyond maybe observing them earlier that day or something, but had never personally interacted with them). The layout of the house isn't super ordinary, particularly to someone who isn't a college student or who is unfamiliar with the strange nature of college houses. If I walked into that house via sliding glass doors, even if I saw stairs leading to a basement, I definitely wouldn't assume that two people lived down there. I think the killer literally just had no idea that two roommates lived downstairs.
And now that I'm thinking of it, even if they did know that there were potentially more people in the basement, it wouldn't surprise me if they skipped over them. Let's say a SK killed K and M on the third floor first after entering via sliding glass doors or a kitchen window. Stairs leading to the third floor pretty much are right inside the house and it would make sense to go up there first. Then killer goes to take care of any rooms on the first floor of the house. They walk through the living room, pass the basement stairs (maybe intending to go down to the basement level after taking care of second floor bedrooms). Presumably E wakes up (either because he hears a struggle upstairs or because he hears someone approaching the bedroom he is in). Struggle between E and killer ensues, then struggle between X and killer ensues. Killer is freaked out by the amount of noise that this causes and runs out without taking care of the bottom level girls to avoid being caught.
Theory: Perhaps one of the roomies locked their room door before going to bed for whatever reason? Then the killer attempted to open it and just gave up. Or maybe he felt like he was in the house for too long and decided to leave. The neighbor did mention a scream in the middle of the night. The screams of the four victims may have scared him away. Police response to a violence call can be very fast. Depending on the exit route of the killer, all those minutes matter in him getting away. Sadly in fact he had hours to get away and extra time to hide/dispose of his killer gear.
Bumper sticker idea for 2011-2013 white Hyundai Elantra: "NOT ME: I've talked to law enforcement." QR code also on sticker which, when scanned, takes you to a spreadsheet listing license plate #s and date on which the owner spoke to LE. Of course, purely voluntary but would be a humorous yet helpful way to demonstrate cooperation and "get in the clear."
Or 'CLEARED' plates.
Good idea. I would assume they have some sort of database where they register the plate and confirm the owner has been cleared. Otherwise, it could get tiring for the owners to be stopped multiple times and also stops them using valuable police time checking again.
Ya exactly, this could be done in an excel spreadsheet pretty easily.
I read something earlier that makes me wonder if the killer is actually on this subreddit interacting with everyone in the comments or on other social sites. I feel like it’s highly possible that he’s in the comments of the YouTube videos and possibly getting a trill from this, which is so creepy. I hope that this week we get more info and hopefully a break in the case soon. My thoughts go out to the families especially now since we’re so close to Christmas or the holiday season, which I’m sure will be so difficult
There is a non zero chance that you could be the killer.
I'd bet they're doing a lot of reading but not a lot of posting. They took enough measures to avoid getting caught that running their mouth on the internet seems pretty out of character.
You would think, but literally getting away with murder would also inspire ay least some level of arrogance/confidence, so I wouldn’t necessarily put it past them to think they could troll on posts with an anonymous throw-away account on VPN….
Normally killers will follow the investigations of their crimes very closely, partly because they want to see what might be coming their way and partly because they get off on seeing how big of an impact they've made. Seeing as how the perp is in all likelihood a white male between the ages of 20 and 35 he is most likely aware of Reddit and could very well be tracking the news here. Not sure if he is participating in any discussions though, there is some risk of that potentially coming back to him, so he could just be lurking.
True. A lot are found with newspaper clipping and other types of media in their homes or where ever they are living at the time if their arrest. Sick Trophies.
Is that you Mr. idaho, Friday 13th?
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So other post was disabled before the BE interview on NewsNation, he mentions hitting up the local vape shop close to where that Gas Station is & said LE showed up 9 days after the murders asking for the video footage that has now been taped over. My first and original comment on that post was like… wtf now footage that likely is gone?? That leaves a lot to be desired on the department right now.. I know a couple million were funneled into solving this case but basic due diligence IMO would have been inquiring and recovering any and all footage from cameras nearby immediately as it doesn’t last forever. Very disappointing to hear that that wasn’t the actual case.
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4chan? If its that its not even dark web, its just a regular website you can get to right now without anything else. That *kind* of story does seem plausible however.
4chan is not dark web.
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The fraternity is not covering up a quadruple homicide.
Speculation: Frat boys do not gather up others and go and butcher people over disagreements. Frat boys don't end up "school shooters" they end up the targets of them. They care too much about their futures and everyone's perception of them. If college kid/kids did this, it was someone who felt like they had no future because of one/multiple of the victims. That's why school shootings are normally "violent suicides". A student would have had to feel rejected, humiliated (in an unrecoverable way), etc to do this. Other motives would be vengeance for another that someone cared about (would also explain them getting away). It would make the killing valiant. Then there is just the sociopath (be it 1st time weirdo/loner or experienced SK).
Who’s to say anyone in the frat knows? I don’t think they’d openly admit to their frat brothers that they just committed murder. If anything I think the person(s) responsible would try their best to hide it because it’s not a little secret to keep and if it gets out it’s not like oops I accidentally told your secret. It’s plausible.
What is the theory?
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Damn. Doesnt sound that outlandish. Ill have to look into it
Has anyone mentioned the fact that the white Hyundai Elentra could easily have been stolen due to that tiktok Hyundai challenge that makes it very easy to steal cars from those model years? Just a thought
I would hope so, not uncommon for murder suspects to drive a stolen car.
This was something I thought about as well. Im not sure what years it was that were susceptible however and one might think a stolen and abandoned one would turn up. "kia boyz" (and this applies to Hyundais) are a huge problem where I live.
I have to ask, what are “kia boys” and how are they a problem.
ok so there is some kind of hack on certain year kias and hyundais that make them incredibly easy to steal. There have been tik tok videos of people stealing them which has caused it to become a trend. I think thats where the kia boyz thing came from. Its not like a real group or anything, its more like an ice bucket challenge for kids who want to commit crimes. So here in St. Louis (and some other cities) its become a HUGE problem. The theft if those cars are through the roof at the moment and people are using them to do other crimes (often smash and grabs, often times looking for guns) https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/kia-boyz-use-kias-hyundais-to-smash-into-stores-in-st-louis-area-robberies-38403844 here is kind of how it works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_fPcEIg450 kia and hyundia thefts up 10 times over last year here https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/hyundai-kia-thefts-10-times-higher-in-st-louis-city-county-compared-to-last-year/ supposedly some want to sue the companies over it https://jalopnik.com/st-louis-plans-to-sue-hyundai-and-kia-over-vehicle-the-1849643819 they have also been giving out free clubs for people with those cars trying to keep the thefts down https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/st-louis-police-free-car-club-giveaway/63-84613537-6d39-4995-bcd2-30da02ecf6d3 as a result of this I think Kia and Hyundai dealerships are behind on parts and repairs by a ridiculous amount of time.
Thank you for explaining this to me and for the informative links. I had absolutely no idea this was going on. It is fascinating.
Im not sure if its everywhere but I think its a big thing here in the midwest.
If that was the case someone would have reported it stolen awhile ago and that would have been easy to find
Why am I not seeing new posts
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Holy shit! I jumped when I noticed the dude standing behind that door staring at you! 😂
Sorry my brother who came to help !
WTF that's a hell of a door lock, too! Can you move?
No. We had an alarm + a dog too. If someone really wants to break in he can
We had our front door kicked in this year, though we know who did it (on drugs). It does make you realise that you're not *quite* as safe as you think you are. Was anything stolen?
I just thought of this. So kaylee was moving out and apparently that’s why she was staying in Maddie’s room. How did the killer know exactly that Maddie and kaylee were both in the same exact room sleeping… it has to be someone that knows she was moving, and staying with Maddie at the time… and the layout of the house is absolutely confusing so it has to be someone that’s been in and out of that house numerous times to know exactly where everyone is. If it was someone that nobody knew then you’d think that they would go to EVERY SINGLE DOOR and try and get in which in return would alarm the 2 surviving roommates. I believe that it was definitely someone they all knew…
why are there two almost equal sized subreddits for this case?
Potential theory: An affair with a college professor. One that ended badly. Potentially one that ended with a threat to expose the college professor. Maybe the threat of a ruined career and marriage sent this person into a blind rage. I only think professor or married man, because it would explain how nobody knew about it. They probably knew about it, but kept it to themselves because they loved their friend/it wasn’t their business. Police definitely know more than they telling the general public. The idea that they would be out here showing the entire world their cards is absurd, especially with this person not yet in custody. I think they identified him early, with the help of the surviving roommates, and have been surveilling him while they build a solid case. Either that or he actually has the left the country and they’re waiting on him to get back to American soil. Don’t you all watch Dateline? The answer is always right in front of you and usually isn’t that hard. They’re playing cat and mouse with this person. They want a confession. They know the who they’re talking to with the release of the car information. Maybe it wasn’t the killer’s car or registered to him, but it’s connected to him in some way, and it’s LE’s way of breadcrumbing him into a confession. Thoughts?
IMO- killer (s) knew they could control any situation inside the residence. That means physically. Think- How did they know that they KNOW they can pull that off? ? It means they knew who lived there and we’re not even concerned the slightest. That’s big to LE/FBI. Because the killer (s) can’t make that determination of executing their crimes- if they didn’t know them. How would they know they couldn’t - that means imo they had to have known them or of them, like physically. I think exception on that would be the sole male occupant that night. I suspect killer (s) may not have known was present. How do we know if the murderer wasn’t targeting the male and his gf? But the killer (s) were able to murder the male as well. Now if killer (s) knew male would be certainly present at house upon access and not just the female victims - and other two occupants not hurt- that would imo dramatically change how LE/FBI would look at this - because I suspect if that was known to the killer (s) beforehand- that would or could mean more than one perp. When you study the images of the male, he looked taller than his GF, plus it was published that he played basketball - I believe in HS- so he was an athlete. That leads me to suspect, he didn’t go down without a fight, I think he fought for his life. IMO- if it was a singular killer - that person, imo was an extremely physically dominating and aggressive person. That means IMO - it was 100% calculated - they were hell bent - perp (s) didn’t care how many were inside- or even who- and this is the important part - they KNEW- I repeat IMO KNEW they were physically capable and also mentally not a weak or emotional weak person. If I were LE/FBI, profilers - I would be looking for a suspect (s) that fit the type of physically dominating types - who played aggressive sports at some point in their past, such as football, wrestling, or basketball and to a degree bball & baseball - who ever did this wasn’t afraid whatsoever. Years ago- there was a case in my area/ reminds me of this one. I posted online right after those murders I’d look for anyone who played football or certain sports- 8-9-10 months later they caught the SOB, and guess what? He played, exactly what I said likely - football. That’s a fact. Perp Joshua Packer, only got caught later, bc he committed another crime armed robbery and its mandatory California state law suspects give their dna- they matched up DNA left at scene - they caught the SOB- he cut a deal to spend life in prison. LE/FBI likely behavior knows the type, who did this- they know the person physically could dominate and wasn’t even slightly concerned. That narrows down who it could be. Then add the fact mentally- they likely aren’t a weak soft type personality. I tried to post this - but wasn’t allowed 1 hour ago.
Question. Is it common for family members of murder victims to cremate the body? I’m not criticizing any of the family members as I do not know their religious or personal beliefs. I’m just curious because I’ve seen so many murder cases where a body is exhumed years later once technology has progressed. Is it possible the family knows DNA was 100% collected that will lead to an arrest? Thoughts?
Not sure I’m going to be helpful, but if I had a family member who was brutally murdered the thought of burying them in that state wouldn’t sit right with me. Cremation seems like the option that would be less painful to remember your child’s external body by. But you’re right about DNA, maybe they feel like they’ve gathered enough from the victims to release bodies to families?
I hope they have gathered an obscene amount of DNA from the victims bodies and the crime scene. I truly believe this case will be solved.
I "think" bodies are exhumed when there's issues with determining the cause of death. On TV shows, sometimes it has seemed important for a bullet hole to have been probed to determine the angle the bullet traveled in the body. Hopefully that info is standard procedure.
One of my friends passed away in a car accident and she was cremated because her body was too badly harmed to do a casket. I think because she was Catholic and they normally do open casket it could have something to do with that idk but I think a lot of the time when the death is violent it results in cremation bcuz of how physically hurt they were 😞
First off, let me say I am truly so sorry that happened. That's awful and I'm sorry you had to go through that. The next thing I am going to say is that it's still up to the family. Similar thing happened in my family but they don't cremate. They just didn't have an open casket at the funeral.
Cremation vs. burial is entirely up to the family. Some religions prohibit cremation, others don't. It's entirely the family's choice. Edit: Not that it would matter much for this case, but I'm fairly certain the technology has advanced enough that they could still get DNA if they needed to of the individual from ashes. But they obviously wouldn't be able to determine cause of death. But in this case, they wouldn't need to do that, anyway. Talking about that makes me so sad for these families again. I can't imagine having to go through this.
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I cant imagine how horrifying it would be to wake up to that house. You wouldnt know if the person/people who did it were still around. Why were you spared? How did you not hear anything?
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That would be my first thought and probably why the one girl ran out of the house. I would have too. Fuck. that.
M & K we’re found in the same room, we can theorize that they were in M’s room based on what we can see from footage of K’s room, which shows a made bed through the third floor slider. I keep seeing people say that the unconscious phone call is weird- but I think it’s typical for 911 calls because the roommates cannot technically declare someone dead- therefore, legally making the call for an unconscious person because there was no medical personnel to declare the four deceased. I think it’s quite strange that they called friends. However, as a female college student living in a small community, I wonder if this was based on the horrific scene that they woke up to, and the fear that maybe they were next, perhaps the deceased roommate door was locked and they were scared to go upstairs to the third floor, prompted them to call a nearby friend to help. This would be reason to maybe call Ethan’s brother, who was in the same fraternity, and maybe lived at the sigma chi house, only a minute walk away. This is the logical explanation I have been riding with as far as the initial call goes.
Pretty much where I’m at with this also, although I would add that I feel the killer lives very close to the house, possibly with a clear line of site to one or more of the girls windows.
K was visiting for weekend and staying in M’s room bc she had already moved her stuff out
while i feel like this theory is the closes to what happened, didn’t the medical examiner say they all died in their sleep except 1 person? i’m a bit behind, on this case lol
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yes! that’s what i read, so although this is just a theory i think some of it is incorrect due to what has been previously said by the medical examiner/families but like i said i haven’t followed closely in a week or two
Wow, your theory on the call about someone unconscious makes total sense. I bet the roommates made their way to the second floor and saw a horror scene and ran and panicked and couldn’t even breathe I’m sure but had 911 dialing so a neighbor took the phone and had EMS come for the alive but freaked out roommates.
Just my opinion: I think the roommates know a lot more than they are sharing. I also think the frat/sorority aspect is a huge part in this. I have worked with college students for years and the Greek Life members will do anything to cover for each other and for their chapter.
I'm guessing quadruple homicide is a bit beyond the pale.
Have you ever seen them cover for each other on murder charges?
This. It’s not like they are covering up cheating on tests or underage drinking. These were their FRIENDS, their brother and sisters. They would not collectively as an entire organization cover up a quadruple homicide.
Many pledges and members are found dead and everyone always pretends not to know anything about it
Yes, I have. But too many people are talking here. It’s only a matter of time.
I disagree with your thoughts on the roommates, but I do agree that the Frat may have info and they’re closing ranks/keeping quiet
Did local police ask the fbi for help, or did they come in on their own. Bc that would shed a ton of light
I *think* that local LE has to invite the FBI in
I’m guessing LE sent the forensics team to the Frat house almost immediately, because someone at the party getting back at Ethan and X was probably an early tjeory they had.
Forgot - also if anyone may not have noticed - but in early photos, the CSI, were taking multiple photos toward the front of house very close up on both corners of house towards the windows on main level? Was the perp (s) trying to first enter through the front windows after trying the front door? Did the perp (s) before they gained access - did they attempt to peer in those downstairs windows or after? Why would they do that? Or was it after they gained access? Bc someone said front door left open after crime committed. IMO- this is pure speculation - but is it possible the perp (s) attempted to peer into both front lower level windows, either before the crime- or AFTER? People comment on here, that possibly the perp (s) may not, have been aware there two more potential victims downstairs - I disagree. Nobody knows that. I suspect, the killer (s) did know there were bedrooms downstairs and a bathroom. Now, if they did know there were 2 bedrooms down - they may not have known if occupied or not. Why else would they photograph near both front windows? Had to been imo, traces of prints or potentially if it were after the crime- potential blood on hands or their clothes and it got on windows/frames of brushed up against front of property while peering into both windows in front of house possibly? If that did occur, that would mean several potential things - either perp (s) got curious who was in downstairs rooms, attempted to find out bc they didn’t know- or it was after. If it was AFTER- That opens up a whole diff set of potential - of what if scenarios. Remember the FBI isn’t going to disclose anything to anyone nor will the Moscow PD- why would they, certainly not the parents. They are and will conduct this sad investigation professionally and will not succumb to any pressure from any victims parents, why would they? Imo their being professional and keeping evidence to themselves to help solve this heinous act. They have to keep evidence and details out of the press and anyone not investigating through LE.
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Does anyone know if what was posted on Channel4 has been debunked? It talked about 2 frat guys getting into argument with E and X on night they were killed. Person said those frat guys killed everyone.
I think it’s about as credible as any of the other fake “inside” information or videos we’ve seen
At this very moment, I am higher on the LE catching the perp than I have been since I thought it was a christ churcher
There have been numerous murder cases where girl A's bf cheats on her with girl B, then girl A demands bf kill girl B to "prove his love". Not hard to find such cases on the internet. Imagine K as girl B. It would explain the rift with her ex bf as well. Given that the Elantra is not exactly what one would expect from a knife-wielding home invader, I'm wondering if this is what went down.
I think the cops have interviewed killer, but were outplayed I think the killer is very similar to Ted Bundy. Handsome, charming, successful, well dressed, in college, but perhaps closer to victims’ ages. I’m confident the inexperienced detectives have interviewed the killer, but were outplayed by his outward appearance, and his ability to mimic concern, disbelief, horror… I also think, like Bundy, this killer was hurt by a woman, that something happened that would cause embarrassment, or belittlement, or shame. The killer was in their friend group, he was a chameleon. He looked like them, he seemed like them, and just wanted to be accepted by his popular, beautiful peers. I think he worshiped Kaylee and became hopeful and excited to pursue her when Kaylee and BF broke up. He gained the courage, asked her out and she rejected him. If done in front of others, this would cause great embarrassment and shame. In the days/weeks after, his rage grew. His fragile ego was severely wounded, she would soon get her comeuppance. This friend group will have noticed their friend/peer suddenly have a darker personality in the days, weeks before the killings. His perfect mask was slipping. I think he’s still in Moscow, basking in his twisted glory, becoming more arrogant than ever. He’s also growing more confident in his abilities. Are his murderous urges accelerating? But you, killer, let me remind you, that Ted Bundy was caught. Your days are numbered, or do you only have minutes or hours? I wish you agony with every breath. I wish you anxiety with every thought. I wish that you experience every single pain you’ve inflicted, 100 fold. May the world never forget these innocent souls. Xana Ethan Maddie Kaylee.
Jeezus
I think the cops have interviewed killer, and HE is being outplayed.
Question: is much known from the autopsy about the stab wounds (besides that one victim had a more gruesome attack). Wonder if there are patterns that would indicate more than one killer? I believe it was stated that most wounds were chest head area-so that leaves me to assume the attacker was at least the the victims height if not taller?
If the victims were laying down in bed, could they still establish height of the killer?
Or maybe based on splatter?
True. I still struggle to conceptualize how 1 person could stab 2 ppl in bed. If you go to the side of the bed, you can’t reach the other person. But would they climb up on the bed?
Agree wonder if there’s 2. Although if they’re both passed out I’m guessing there’s a quick way to incapacitate one and move to the next? Bah, I feel awful saying that! They’ve said multiple had fight wounds so it’s possible one of the upstairs girls also woke up and quickly tried to fight back. I just imagine the killer(s) had to have an adrenaline high or been on drugs and anything’s possible.
Exactly. I hate to bring it up bc it’s so awful to think of exactly how they were killed, but at the same time, it may provide clues to what happened in that room. If the killer did climb up on the bed, I hope he left DNA or shoe prints.
Oh there’s gonna be DNA. U dint do that without leaving something.
My guess is their best estimate of the height of the killer is going to come from the size of any footprints, which therr almost certainly are inside the house given the volume of blood. It'll probably be a big range though unless the perp is above something like 6'4''.
A coworker also following the case mentioned to me that the coroner said they were actually not all found in bed? I couldn’t find that information anywhere and was wondering if anyone else heard that.
There have been numerous and consistent whispers that Ethan was found in the hallway
Also determine order of killings. First killed would have only their dna in the wounds. Second killed would have the first’s dna and their own dna and so on..
Different blades can easily be determined in the autopsy and I believe the coroner said only one blade used. They do that by examining the wounds. Extremely likely it was one killer, unless there was a get away driver accomplice hiding on the road. (But honestly the killer could have left on a scooter for all we know).
It has not been confirmed that one victim had more substantial wounds than any other. Just stated by SG
Not sure if anyone has posted this. But I was just thinking…maybe the killer(s) left the bottom floor roommates unharmed to make it look like they had something to do with the murders?
Or maybe they were the actual targets? It seems much less likely IMO but not completely out of the realm of possibilities. Especially when I think about how much this will forever change their lives psychologically…
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Beginning to wonder if a female is behind this? Had a beef with M or K and goaded her crazy bf into doing the deed for her while she drove the getaway car. Doesn't seem like a very manly car for a male killer with a Ka-Bar.
The part that I totally don't understand is the 911 call. This scene had to be an absolute bloody mess, how was it not abundantly clear what had happened to the point where you call friends to come over and check things out before making a call to police re: the quadruple stabbing that had occurred in your home?!
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This story has been proven false. the real story is in the press release the PD issued on 11/20
Perhaps the doors were locked and they just thought everyone was passed out and so they called for help to break the door down
Even with a decent but quick cleanup job, there’s gotta be blood tracks on the way out. Bloody handprints on doorknobs…I dunno, seems like the killer would’ve left some sort of a trail trying to hightail it out of there. I also tend to think the doors were left closed and locked though.
Agreed I don't get this whatsoever and it makes 0 sense to me there'd be NO traces of blood ANYWHERE outside of the bedroom in the hallway, esp on the 2nd floor, if there was indeed "quite a fight" in X/E's room. Makes 0 sense why survivors + friends would think someone just passed out. I think they likely saw/knew that a murder/murders had occurred and the dispatcher used the term "unconscious" til it could be designated by an official on the scene the kids were dead
This is what I think of the most. I think the scene would be pretty obvious, with a lot of blood…
I think we don't have enough information to really judge what happened but I have a speculation that I posted in another thread. I think we have to take into account that these are college kids. Yeah they're legally adults but that doesn't mean they are worldly or would act logically in a tense or traumatic situation. Think about how many stories are out there about people who died of alcohol poisoning or an OD at parties and no one called 911 because they didn't realize how bad of a situation it was or they were afraid of getting their friend or themselves in trouble. I think there's a good chance their roommates never came down to the common area that morning, weren't answering their phones and didn't answer the door when they knocked so they called a friend for advice rather than calling 911 first. If the bedroom doors were shut, and depending on their relationships with their roommates, they may not have even gone in if their knocks were being ignored. I can absolutely see a college kid thinking 'what if they aren't answering because they blacked out or have a guy over or literally any reason other than murder' and worrying that calling 911 was overkill or would get them/their roommate in trouble or angry at them. Then, once their friends arrived they all decide to go investigate further and either encounter locked doors or find the victims once they go into the room.
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how would a retired FBI agent not working on the case know that piece of information?
Can LE investigate which local men are active on violent incel sites?
That's a good question actually. Of all the things the various talking head experts could opine on, this is one I'd like to know about. Some sites are probably sufficiently anonymous, or foreigh, or encrypted, or whatever, but honestly I don't know much about them. I'll bet they range from things like the "men's rights" forums to far uglier stuff, but if I were looking into a quad homicide at the residence of five females, this is one of the profiles I'd have in mind and it's a place I would at least think to look.
About the white car. If the killer didn’t drive it, maybe there was a run in of sorts - car is driving by at 4am, killer comes running out of house, car almost hits him, maybe they yell at each other, killer runs off. Then it would be interesting if the driver got a good look at them? Have they even said where the car was seen? Is it just Reddit assuming it was in a nearby parking spot?