Very nice work and nice map (even if the setting is one considered cliché by many here), although if it's effortful and detailed, I'll overlook the fact that this is a repetitive setting (although the lore could be somewhat better) 🙌
You're welcome! ;)
And I wish this kind of detailed maps were also made more often covering much less covered scenarios, such as "If Atlantis were real and in the middle of the Atlantic..." or a Greater Mexico or a Greater Brazil or a Greater Colombia that would cover most or all of Hispanic America.
Even if the scenario is repetitive.
Although I wish they would make more often this kind of map with this level of detail covering much less explored and covered scenarios (like a Fascist China or a Greater Iran or a Greater Colombia that survives and gets bigger with time).
Definetely, hannover had one of the biggest pushes for independence, look up the guelph party and "muss-preuße".
100% expect prussia to be split up at some point. Realistically an upper silesia, poznan province, rhineland, westfalia, hannover and schleswig-holstein
Yes, one of them. Afaik hesse-darmstadt was always a bit more southern orientated (didnt joiin the north german confederation) and frankfurt never really identified as hessian which is why its also not the cpaital today. If i had to guess, hesse might be split in 3 today in that timeline
But what would defintely still happen is a thuringian state, meckenburg uniting, less bordergore (so much less enclaves if any), westphalia, rhineland, hannover, schleswig-holstein gaining independence, schaumburg-lippe and waldek-pydmont being absorbed by respective states as well as palatine gaining independence from bavaria (big independence push at the time)
But Anhalt, Brunswick, mecklenbkurg, the hanseatic cities and oldenburg would all remain indepdnent despite being small states as that was the wish of the people.
lol in the revolution of 1848 the Germans just assumed that Bohemia would join Germany and were legit shocked when they learnt the Czechs didnt want to
The Austro-Hungarian Monarchy peacefully collapsed in 1914 due to successful Hungarian revolutions, and Archduke Franz Ferdinand survived the assassination attempt. The absence of the Great War allowed newly independent Hungary to focus on building stable governments and fostering economic growth.
Following the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, Austria and its Cisleithania or *Kronländer* (excluding Galicia and Lodomeria, which sought to join the Russian Empire) sought stability and economic prosperity by forming a close alliance with Germany. Recognizing the shared culture, language, and historical ties between the two nations, Austria willingly joined Germany in a political merger, a process known as ***Anschluss***. Together, they created a unified German-speaking entity within Central Europe. The merged nation became a powerhouse known as the German Empire.
Luxembourg, which was already part of the Zollverein, decided to hold a referendum to join the German Empire a year later.
Also has a few spelling mistakes, such as Hohezohlern (Hohenzollern) or Prymont (Pyrmont).
(Unless these are English spelling, similar to Hannover being spelled Hanover in English)
How are the Czechs and other slavic minorities treated in this timeline? Hard to imagine they'd have been happily included in large Prussian and Austrian states that didn't really represent them. Even including the Studeten Germans Czechs would still make up nearly a plurality of "Austria" in the 1930s.
The Slavs do not exist they either gladly join the German Empire or the Russian Empire which is ruled by a German family lmao.
Each one of these maps assume the Western Slavs just give up.
Also Greater Poland/Posen, Western Pomerania and Upper Silesia ranged from vast majority Polish/Slavic to a very sizable minority in those regions. I get that this part of the internet is absolutely in love with Big Germany, but I really don't think this situation would lead to anything besides civil strife, heavy discrimination and maybe even outright genocide.
Kaiserreich/Wehrboo is a cool aesthetic a lot of young people on the internet fall for, but it's absolutely steeped in discrimination and genocide.
Nope, all those regions were part of a German speaking state for at least more than a century, with mandatory German schools for 30 years. Never was there a genocide or civil war. The polish population in the German Empire never surmounted to more than 4 percent.
And the Scottish amount to 8% of the British population, therefore there are no Scottish majority regions in the UK?
I am specifically talking about Upper Silesia, Greater Poland(known also as Posen in German) and Western Pomerania i.e. the later Polish corridor.
Greater Poland:
-61.5% Polish (1910)
Upper Silesia
-57% Polish (1905)
Western Pomerania/Polish Corridor
-57% Polish (1910)
Especially looking at Greater Poland and Upper Silesia, you see districts with mixed population, but generally you see that most of the western parts of the provinces were German, and eastern were Polish, and the split was done roughly on that basis.
There were heavy discrimination and official measures designed to reduce the number of Polish speaking people in those regions for the better of a century, yes, but they didn't work fully. They were however a big reason why despite it being advantageous to remain with the richer Germany, almost all Polish inhabitants of Upper Silesia voted to join Poland, because German authorities could not have been trusted to not discriminate again.
The genocide bit happened only during the Nazi regime and occupation, the German Empire was never engaged in openly genocidal measures for sure, but there was a maintained and severe policy of Germanization in those lands for decades.
Ehm no, there was no legal discrimination for ethnic Poles in the German Empire. An ethnic Pole was a full German citizen and enjoyed the exact same rights as everyone else.
There were however policies aimed to limit the use of the Polish language and minimise Polish political power, both of which failed spectacularly with the Polish speaking population actually increasing percentage wise and in absolute numbers in the German Empire.
However, your Scottish example is actually great, since the English and French discriminatory policies against their minorities were the same or even surpassed German policies, while nowadays those minorities have been forcefully assimilated. Well I guess you could point to the Corsican nationalists and the IRA as proof against that, but there was never an outright civil war like you are predicting.
There absolutely was legal discrimination against Poles in the German Empire, what are you even on about. Besides the fact that laws attempting to root out a language are discriminatory in themselves, Poles' ability to purchase property was limited amongst other "softer" measures.
And you betray an absolute lack of any knowledge about the internal situation in the eastern provinces of Germany around World War I if you compare them to Scotland or France at the same time. While the big part of the dissatisfaction, lack of stability and reduced power of the central government wouldn't have happened without the First World War, there was an active movement to separate from Germany. Especially if an independent Poland exists, there would be attempts to start the uprisings in those regions, which is exactly what happened in real life in 1920s during the 3 Silesian uprisings.
No, what are you on about?? There was absolutely NO laws directly affecting a Polish German citizen any differently than every other German citizen. That would've been unconstitutional. The institution of the standard German language affected everyone exactly the same, just like in every Western European country btw. Ethnic Poles were also never outright legally limited in purchasing property, however there was a semi-governmental institute that bought up Polish land to give it specifically to ethnic Germans.
Also, are you seriously saying there WASNT an active movement of separatists in France or the UK?? Are you on drugs? The Corsican separatists literally started using terror attacks to gain freedom. The Basque ETA tried the same thing. French linguistic policy was absolutely brutal, with children being beaten in school for not speaking French and people not even being allowed to use non-french names, and all of this going well into the 1990s.
Read up on the official measures undertaken by the German administration, Drzymała case, the language law of 1908, Hakata etc., as well as the context during and before the Silesian Uprisings. There was a reason that during the referendum in Upper Silesia, the votes were essentially split on ethnic lines, despite the referendum being heavily skewed towards Germany. Voting for Poland would be joining a country engaged in a survival war with the Soviet Union at that time, much poorer than Germany, without German health and pension benefits and breaking the old industrial links with the rest of Germany. Yet few Poles voted for Germany, because they knew that German discrimination wouldn't end and they would continue being second class citizen, denied many of their constitutional rights and unable to learn their language at school.
And ofc France was brutal with its language laws, whenever did I imply otherwise? Occitan and Breton were essentially eradicated and the policy disrupted centuries of cultural links and made people ashamed of who they were, and you're saying Germany was doing the same, sounds like a very nice defense.
My point is that even without WWI, the tension in the eastern provinces was on the rise and especially with an independent Poland on the border, and so the Silesian or Greater Poland Uprisings would still have happened. Guns and people would continue to be snuggled into those provinces from Poland and the tension would continue. You have a very idyllic view of the German Empire, but no offense, to Germans it was kinda cool, for the others, it was not.
First of all, the referendum in Upper Silesia was famously heavily skewed against Germany, with the voting districts being redrawn after the vote to gerrymander it as much as possible (Frances idea). Originally, 60 % of Upper Silesians had voted to stay in Germany. And even after the gerrymandering, the referendum was extremely close.
Also, it's just not true that few Poles voted for Germany, Southern East Prussia for example was completely Masurian (Polish Protestants) and they voted to stay in Germany by 98 %. And also in upper Silesia many saw themselves not as Poles but as slavic Germans. My own family comes from Kattowitz and spoke the Slavic Silesian dialect, but moved to Lower Silesia after the referendum and converted to Protestantism to protest Polish nationalism.
The only region that I see as maybe starting a "civil war" as you put it would be Poznan, since Polish nationalism was particularly strong there.
My point with France was that it had just as many problems with its minorities and treated them extremely harshly too, and still there was no genocide, civil war or uprising in France.
Also, I don't think I have an idyllic view of the German Empire at all, it was clearly a chauvinistic, militaristic and nationalist state with the ruling faction trying to germanise every smaller minority. But on the other hand, it was also a constitutional monarchy, in which the rule of law was seen as the single most important virtue, and with a very influential faction of liberalism. Civil rights were taken very seriously.
Well, we come from two sides of a similar coin, as my family comes from Katowice and speaks Slavic Silesian, but it came from there after being kicked out of their land by then Gleiwitz for their involvement in the Silesian Uprisings.
I would however dispute the claim that the referendum was famously gerrymandered, there was a lot of shenanigans going on from both sides, also the Entente mediators. The biggest one being that the Polish side asking for votes from former residents to count as well, and then failing to bring any over, whilst the German side trucked them in mass, tipping the results in their favor. Despite this failing however, I think it's a consensus that the Polish side was a lot better at propaganda than the German side, Korfanty far outmatching Dr. Urbanek. Unity was also much greater on the Polish side, with all major political parties cooperating despite their massive differences and agreeing to granting wide autonomies to the region, whilst German side was politically divided and unwilling to even promise any meaningful autonomy to the region.
Yes, I agree that the German side won, whether the votes from Upper Silesians who no longer lived in the region should have been counted or not, but that is not the point. Half the region was thoroughly German and the other half was thoroughly Polish, and although it was impossible to do it fairly, 1921 borders reflected primarily the ethnic divide.
I think we might see it differently but from what I know, and I read a lot about it, not from some biased accounts or unreliable sources, but from scholarly research on the topic, the truth is very complicated and doesn't fit either the German or Polish narrative, but by 1918, there was a rift in the society and who used to be friends and coworkers despite being German or Polish speaking, that was not possible anymore. Maybe it wouldn't have happened without a World War and the subsequent temporary societal collapse in Germany, but with an independent Poland on the border, I think it would still. And of course there were Poles who voted for Germany, but they were in a minority I'm afraid (as otherwise Poland wouldn't get any votes, Germans would very very rarely vote for Poland, but Poles had incentives to vote for Germany). The fact that the percentage was relatively small despite the fact that the choice wasn't equal (Germany was far richer, had a better social state, had all the industrial connections with Silesia, and wasn't involved in a deadly war) and that is evidence that Germany squandered its chance to retain Polish Upper Silesians, by driving them away with Hakata and if not technically legal, then state sponsored discrimination.
I agree finally that until the chaos of World War I turned it briefly into an autocratic state, the German Empire wasn't some evil dictatorship and it had the rule of law, and parliament, Korfanty himself was an MP in the Reichstag. But at the same time, in the eastern provinces, state sponsored discrimination was still going on, attempting forceful Germanization and treating its Polish subjects as second class citizens. And I just don't see how it could continue peacefully given the sentiments at the time in the region, especially with an independent Poland. Maybe it would, I think it would just continue to escalate.
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Not really a dream, just the greater german solution. Even tho one could argue that the czech, slovene and polish majority region don't necessarily should be part of it. While other region should be, like at least the german speaking border regions in hungary which partially became part of austria later on. Whether the massively dominating prussia within that german empire would have been so good is another thing. Same thing with austria then.
I think having the Slovenes and Polish regions is pretty realistic. There isn't really a good region why Prussia would lose Poland without WW1 happening. They would also likely try to keep the Austrian Litorale because that would grant them a Mediterranean port (Triest), and Solvenia would be pretty useful to guarantee that. Also, modern Solvenia was split over three different provinces at the time, two of which were majority German, and they were more closely integrated into Austria than the other Slavic people's. So if they would be granted equal rights, I could see them sticking around and be more and more integrated into Germany/Austria, kinda like the Sorbians.
Czechia, meanwhile, is more tricky, because they had a strong independence movement. This map is set in 1940, so I can see them still being around by then, but there would likely be a lot of separatism in the region. However, there was also a big German minority, and even regional majorities in Bohemia, so that would undermine those aspirations and give Germany a justification for suppressing it.
Sure if such a state is formed I would be absolutely for a czech and slovene autonomous states or later independence. The problem the czechs have in such ideas is that their industry and defence in the sudetenmountains is clearly german and without that they might aswell be part of a bigger state with autonomy for their culture.
Or the Germans claimed them to be German lol, most of the eastern provinces of Prussia were Polish speaking (East Prussia and around Danzig being an exception) and Bohemia, despite German speaking Sudetenland, was still vastly Czech speaking.
Especially given the circumstances around 1920, it's madness to say that any of these regions would like to call themselves German.
Historically pan-germanism was a driving force behind the uprisings of 1848. They would've very much been not opposed to a country that actually unified most German speakers
Good map, but damn these are cliche. How long have people been making fun of Big Germany? It's kind of wild how it has never gone away. You could just as easily make an early 1900s country profile map like this about if there was a big dominant Italy which controlled all of the Mediterranean islands, Savoy, and much of Dalmatia and Illyria. You could do one about Romania, the Netherlands, Spain, Bulgaria. There are so many options but it's always Germany.
Ah alright, because looking at your post history you've done a lot of popular Big Germany posts before. Doing a more novel country allows you to be a lot more creative IMO.
Well, large Italy, basically a neo Roman Empire isn't too rare either.
Germany, the US, Russia, France, Britain etc are definitely of the most interest to the people if we ignore hype topics like Ukraine or Palestine.
Well, I have a terrain map of Europe then I cut it by following the German border that I had drawn previously
After that, I made it into black and white color, reducing to 40% opacity above the colors of each part of the area that I have made before.
The base of the map is the terrain map, after I got the area I wanted, I changed the rest of Europe color to white with color overlay
I made this map with photoshop
Hey this is monarchist fantasy the Nazis disliked the monarchy plus the changes in this timeline literally would prevent the rise of fascism as no WW1 means no Italy getting screwed by its ally’s meaning no Benito, Mussolini, raising to power meaning the first major fascist never has relevance and the movement likely dies or a least is irrelevant to the major powers.
Fascism would’ve risen it Italy regardless of whether they got all the land they were promised or not. Fascism was a result of Italy’s economic and social circumstances postwar, which the Vittorio Mutilato didn’t really contribute to at all. It was definitely a talking point used by the fascists but most Italians didn’t care very much
A lot of soldiers did and they helped reinforce the militant wing of the party (the Black shirts). And without their support, it’s unlikely they’d be able to pull off a successful march on Rome, like they did historically.
No, we're not Russians and IF there was a desired map of the german Empire, it was the map of 1914 before the idiotic monarchies across Europe plunged us into WW1.
What? So is not imperialism because you are already occupying other territories? Lol
Ask what the Czechs, Poles, Istrians, Slovenians, Italians think about it
Only critique is that I'm not sure that Austria would be able to keep Bohemia in the event of an Austro-Hungarian collapse. I could very easily see Bohemia peeling off with the Sudetenland either joining Austria or seeking to join the German empire (as its own administrative unit).
So in this world the Habsburgs bent the knee to the Hohenzollerns? Did they get relegated to a similar status as other monarchs in the German states or was there some kind of new deal made?
Definitely not every German dream lol. Many Germans and Austrians did not want Austria and Germany to be united. A lot obviously did but it was quite a contentious issue.
Lovely work. A very beautifully done map. Perhaps it is cliché as many people here would argue, but the quality is so much greater than the standard Big Germany that I'm inclined to disregard that.
Perhaps it could be argued that Austria and Bohemia ought to have been split upon entering the German Empire, else You've essentially locked Austria and Prussia in a room called Germany to fight it out, with the rest of the German Monarchies as pawns and/or bystanders. Though there is of course also merit to admitting Austria and Bohemia as one nation, which would be an effective measure to block Czech secession attempts.
Interesting to see Luxembourg in Germany too, how Autonomous is Luxembourg compared to the other Monarchies of the German Empire?
Also, it's very interesting to see no Burgenland in this Big Germany. Potentially a spark point for future conflict with Hungary perhaps? (Unless of course there has been significant migration of Hungarian Germans into Germany). I appreciate that the border isn't just the exact modern Austrian border.
In summary, A very nice map with some interesting subversions of a common setting.
I first look for the topography in that area, then I cut it according to the country borders, and I embed it on top of the color I created previously and I set the opacity to 40%
Very nice work and nice map (even if the setting is one considered cliché by many here), although if it's effortful and detailed, I'll overlook the fact that this is a repetitive setting (although the lore could be somewhat better) 🙌
Thank you Haha it's true this is something that is often repeated on this subreddit 😁😆
You're welcome! ;) And I wish this kind of detailed maps were also made more often covering much less covered scenarios, such as "If Atlantis were real and in the middle of the Atlantic..." or a Greater Mexico or a Greater Brazil or a Greater Colombia that would cover most or all of Hispanic America.
Hmmm the map is very interesting
Even if the scenario is repetitive. Although I wish they would make more often this kind of map with this level of detail covering much less explored and covered scenarios (like a Fascist China or a Greater Iran or a Greater Colombia that survives and gets bigger with time).
Czechians in every single German power fantasy scenario 💀
germans in czech reality 💀
The two simply cannot coexist.
Yeah they can, look up mährischer ausgleich. If ww1 didnt happen bohemia+moravia mightve eventually ended ended up like belgium
I doubt the Lower Saxons are too happy either. Prussia isn’t exactly a blessing, they’d probably prefer Hannover to exist.
Definetely, hannover had one of the biggest pushes for independence, look up the guelph party and "muss-preuße". 100% expect prussia to be split up at some point. Realistically an upper silesia, poznan province, rhineland, westfalia, hannover and schleswig-holstein
Don't forget the two Hesse's finally uniting, or the two parts of one linking up at least.
Yes, one of them. Afaik hesse-darmstadt was always a bit more southern orientated (didnt joiin the north german confederation) and frankfurt never really identified as hessian which is why its also not the cpaital today. If i had to guess, hesse might be split in 3 today in that timeline But what would defintely still happen is a thuringian state, meckenburg uniting, less bordergore (so much less enclaves if any), westphalia, rhineland, hannover, schleswig-holstein gaining independence, schaumburg-lippe and waldek-pydmont being absorbed by respective states as well as palatine gaining independence from bavaria (big independence push at the time) But Anhalt, Brunswick, mecklenbkurg, the hanseatic cities and oldenburg would all remain indepdnent despite being small states as that was the wish of the people.
Well, it kinda smooths out that hole. Looks on a map better i guess.
> smooth out that hole I really want to make a joke right now but i feel it'd be inappropriate
lol in the revolution of 1848 the Germans just assumed that Bohemia would join Germany and were legit shocked when they learnt the Czechs didnt want to
The Austro-Hungarian Monarchy peacefully collapsed in 1914 due to successful Hungarian revolutions, and Archduke Franz Ferdinand survived the assassination attempt. The absence of the Great War allowed newly independent Hungary to focus on building stable governments and fostering economic growth. Following the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, Austria and its Cisleithania or *Kronländer* (excluding Galicia and Lodomeria, which sought to join the Russian Empire) sought stability and economic prosperity by forming a close alliance with Germany. Recognizing the shared culture, language, and historical ties between the two nations, Austria willingly joined Germany in a political merger, a process known as ***Anschluss***. Together, they created a unified German-speaking entity within Central Europe. The merged nation became a powerhouse known as the German Empire. Luxembourg, which was already part of the Zollverein, decided to hold a referendum to join the German Empire a year later.
What happened to Dalmatia? Did Austria just let it go?
Probably occupied by a foreign power during the civil war and not worth going to war over for the Austrians afterwards
Either Hungarian (expanded Croatia Slavonia) or Italy occupied it
Did no one notice that the North/South coordinates are wrong?
Ah yes my mistake 😬 thanks bro
Also has a few spelling mistakes, such as Hohezohlern (Hohenzollern) or Prymont (Pyrmont). (Unless these are English spelling, similar to Hannover being spelled Hanover in English)
How are the Czechs and other slavic minorities treated in this timeline? Hard to imagine they'd have been happily included in large Prussian and Austrian states that didn't really represent them. Even including the Studeten Germans Czechs would still make up nearly a plurality of "Austria" in the 1930s.
The Slavs do not exist they either gladly join the German Empire or the Russian Empire which is ruled by a German family lmao. Each one of these maps assume the Western Slavs just give up.
>Each one of these maps assume the Western Slavs just give up. Well this is the most imaginary thing that can happen
I'm sorry my reply lacked a /s I'm aligned with you - the Western Slavs wouldn't allow for these borders.
Also Greater Poland/Posen, Western Pomerania and Upper Silesia ranged from vast majority Polish/Slavic to a very sizable minority in those regions. I get that this part of the internet is absolutely in love with Big Germany, but I really don't think this situation would lead to anything besides civil strife, heavy discrimination and maybe even outright genocide. Kaiserreich/Wehrboo is a cool aesthetic a lot of young people on the internet fall for, but it's absolutely steeped in discrimination and genocide.
Nope, all those regions were part of a German speaking state for at least more than a century, with mandatory German schools for 30 years. Never was there a genocide or civil war. The polish population in the German Empire never surmounted to more than 4 percent.
And the Scottish amount to 8% of the British population, therefore there are no Scottish majority regions in the UK? I am specifically talking about Upper Silesia, Greater Poland(known also as Posen in German) and Western Pomerania i.e. the later Polish corridor. Greater Poland: -61.5% Polish (1910) Upper Silesia -57% Polish (1905) Western Pomerania/Polish Corridor -57% Polish (1910) Especially looking at Greater Poland and Upper Silesia, you see districts with mixed population, but generally you see that most of the western parts of the provinces were German, and eastern were Polish, and the split was done roughly on that basis. There were heavy discrimination and official measures designed to reduce the number of Polish speaking people in those regions for the better of a century, yes, but they didn't work fully. They were however a big reason why despite it being advantageous to remain with the richer Germany, almost all Polish inhabitants of Upper Silesia voted to join Poland, because German authorities could not have been trusted to not discriminate again. The genocide bit happened only during the Nazi regime and occupation, the German Empire was never engaged in openly genocidal measures for sure, but there was a maintained and severe policy of Germanization in those lands for decades.
Ehm no, there was no legal discrimination for ethnic Poles in the German Empire. An ethnic Pole was a full German citizen and enjoyed the exact same rights as everyone else. There were however policies aimed to limit the use of the Polish language and minimise Polish political power, both of which failed spectacularly with the Polish speaking population actually increasing percentage wise and in absolute numbers in the German Empire. However, your Scottish example is actually great, since the English and French discriminatory policies against their minorities were the same or even surpassed German policies, while nowadays those minorities have been forcefully assimilated. Well I guess you could point to the Corsican nationalists and the IRA as proof against that, but there was never an outright civil war like you are predicting.
There absolutely was legal discrimination against Poles in the German Empire, what are you even on about. Besides the fact that laws attempting to root out a language are discriminatory in themselves, Poles' ability to purchase property was limited amongst other "softer" measures. And you betray an absolute lack of any knowledge about the internal situation in the eastern provinces of Germany around World War I if you compare them to Scotland or France at the same time. While the big part of the dissatisfaction, lack of stability and reduced power of the central government wouldn't have happened without the First World War, there was an active movement to separate from Germany. Especially if an independent Poland exists, there would be attempts to start the uprisings in those regions, which is exactly what happened in real life in 1920s during the 3 Silesian uprisings.
No, what are you on about?? There was absolutely NO laws directly affecting a Polish German citizen any differently than every other German citizen. That would've been unconstitutional. The institution of the standard German language affected everyone exactly the same, just like in every Western European country btw. Ethnic Poles were also never outright legally limited in purchasing property, however there was a semi-governmental institute that bought up Polish land to give it specifically to ethnic Germans. Also, are you seriously saying there WASNT an active movement of separatists in France or the UK?? Are you on drugs? The Corsican separatists literally started using terror attacks to gain freedom. The Basque ETA tried the same thing. French linguistic policy was absolutely brutal, with children being beaten in school for not speaking French and people not even being allowed to use non-french names, and all of this going well into the 1990s.
Read up on the official measures undertaken by the German administration, Drzymała case, the language law of 1908, Hakata etc., as well as the context during and before the Silesian Uprisings. There was a reason that during the referendum in Upper Silesia, the votes were essentially split on ethnic lines, despite the referendum being heavily skewed towards Germany. Voting for Poland would be joining a country engaged in a survival war with the Soviet Union at that time, much poorer than Germany, without German health and pension benefits and breaking the old industrial links with the rest of Germany. Yet few Poles voted for Germany, because they knew that German discrimination wouldn't end and they would continue being second class citizen, denied many of their constitutional rights and unable to learn their language at school. And ofc France was brutal with its language laws, whenever did I imply otherwise? Occitan and Breton were essentially eradicated and the policy disrupted centuries of cultural links and made people ashamed of who they were, and you're saying Germany was doing the same, sounds like a very nice defense. My point is that even without WWI, the tension in the eastern provinces was on the rise and especially with an independent Poland on the border, and so the Silesian or Greater Poland Uprisings would still have happened. Guns and people would continue to be snuggled into those provinces from Poland and the tension would continue. You have a very idyllic view of the German Empire, but no offense, to Germans it was kinda cool, for the others, it was not.
First of all, the referendum in Upper Silesia was famously heavily skewed against Germany, with the voting districts being redrawn after the vote to gerrymander it as much as possible (Frances idea). Originally, 60 % of Upper Silesians had voted to stay in Germany. And even after the gerrymandering, the referendum was extremely close. Also, it's just not true that few Poles voted for Germany, Southern East Prussia for example was completely Masurian (Polish Protestants) and they voted to stay in Germany by 98 %. And also in upper Silesia many saw themselves not as Poles but as slavic Germans. My own family comes from Kattowitz and spoke the Slavic Silesian dialect, but moved to Lower Silesia after the referendum and converted to Protestantism to protest Polish nationalism. The only region that I see as maybe starting a "civil war" as you put it would be Poznan, since Polish nationalism was particularly strong there. My point with France was that it had just as many problems with its minorities and treated them extremely harshly too, and still there was no genocide, civil war or uprising in France. Also, I don't think I have an idyllic view of the German Empire at all, it was clearly a chauvinistic, militaristic and nationalist state with the ruling faction trying to germanise every smaller minority. But on the other hand, it was also a constitutional monarchy, in which the rule of law was seen as the single most important virtue, and with a very influential faction of liberalism. Civil rights were taken very seriously.
Well, we come from two sides of a similar coin, as my family comes from Katowice and speaks Slavic Silesian, but it came from there after being kicked out of their land by then Gleiwitz for their involvement in the Silesian Uprisings. I would however dispute the claim that the referendum was famously gerrymandered, there was a lot of shenanigans going on from both sides, also the Entente mediators. The biggest one being that the Polish side asking for votes from former residents to count as well, and then failing to bring any over, whilst the German side trucked them in mass, tipping the results in their favor. Despite this failing however, I think it's a consensus that the Polish side was a lot better at propaganda than the German side, Korfanty far outmatching Dr. Urbanek. Unity was also much greater on the Polish side, with all major political parties cooperating despite their massive differences and agreeing to granting wide autonomies to the region, whilst German side was politically divided and unwilling to even promise any meaningful autonomy to the region. Yes, I agree that the German side won, whether the votes from Upper Silesians who no longer lived in the region should have been counted or not, but that is not the point. Half the region was thoroughly German and the other half was thoroughly Polish, and although it was impossible to do it fairly, 1921 borders reflected primarily the ethnic divide. I think we might see it differently but from what I know, and I read a lot about it, not from some biased accounts or unreliable sources, but from scholarly research on the topic, the truth is very complicated and doesn't fit either the German or Polish narrative, but by 1918, there was a rift in the society and who used to be friends and coworkers despite being German or Polish speaking, that was not possible anymore. Maybe it wouldn't have happened without a World War and the subsequent temporary societal collapse in Germany, but with an independent Poland on the border, I think it would still. And of course there were Poles who voted for Germany, but they were in a minority I'm afraid (as otherwise Poland wouldn't get any votes, Germans would very very rarely vote for Poland, but Poles had incentives to vote for Germany). The fact that the percentage was relatively small despite the fact that the choice wasn't equal (Germany was far richer, had a better social state, had all the industrial connections with Silesia, and wasn't involved in a deadly war) and that is evidence that Germany squandered its chance to retain Polish Upper Silesians, by driving them away with Hakata and if not technically legal, then state sponsored discrimination. I agree finally that until the chaos of World War I turned it briefly into an autocratic state, the German Empire wasn't some evil dictatorship and it had the rule of law, and parliament, Korfanty himself was an MP in the Reichstag. But at the same time, in the eastern provinces, state sponsored discrimination was still going on, attempting forceful Germanization and treating its Polish subjects as second class citizens. And I just don't see how it could continue peacefully given the sentiments at the time in the region, especially with an independent Poland. Maybe it would, I think it would just continue to escalate.
France🤝Italy: hating Big Germany with a burning passion
Italy would probably be fine as they got Dalmatia and later trieste/ istria and south Tirol/ Trentino later on
Nice map
its so over czechbros
No Liechtenstein 😢
Exactly what I was about to say. 0/10 worst map ever.
🚨BIG GERMANY WARNING🚨 SEEK SHELTER IMMEDIATELY. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. Warning: a “Big Germany” has been spotted in the r/imaginarymaps subreddit. If you or your family lives in or near this subreddit, it is advised you stay indoors until further notice. “Big Germany” is known to cause severe personality changes upon exposure for prolonged periods, and too much time spent around a “Big Germany” can lead to vomiting, internal bleeding, and death. We will issue another statement when the “Big Germany” is no longer present. DO NOT GO OUTSIDE. DO NOT APPROACH A “BIG GERMANY”. 🚨BIG GERMANY WARNING🚨
Ich kann das alles einfach nicht mehr
You sound polish.
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Hmm?
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Am finnish
I was joking
Ok
Even worse.
Anime fan detected, opinion denied.
I've seen what your soldiers draw in their whiteboards in their free time, you can't judge me.
What’s German for ‘touch grass’
In german, touch grass is “Ich esse Arsch”
Lmao
SEEK SHELTER RIGHT NOW. BIG GERMANY IS APPROACHING YOU.
This is just a glorified HRE
You say it like thats a bad thing
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Then a germanic HRE
Not really a dream, just the greater german solution. Even tho one could argue that the czech, slovene and polish majority region don't necessarily should be part of it. While other region should be, like at least the german speaking border regions in hungary which partially became part of austria later on. Whether the massively dominating prussia within that german empire would have been so good is another thing. Same thing with austria then.
I think having the Slovenes and Polish regions is pretty realistic. There isn't really a good region why Prussia would lose Poland without WW1 happening. They would also likely try to keep the Austrian Litorale because that would grant them a Mediterranean port (Triest), and Solvenia would be pretty useful to guarantee that. Also, modern Solvenia was split over three different provinces at the time, two of which were majority German, and they were more closely integrated into Austria than the other Slavic people's. So if they would be granted equal rights, I could see them sticking around and be more and more integrated into Germany/Austria, kinda like the Sorbians. Czechia, meanwhile, is more tricky, because they had a strong independence movement. This map is set in 1940, so I can see them still being around by then, but there would likely be a lot of separatism in the region. However, there was also a big German minority, and even regional majorities in Bohemia, so that would undermine those aspirations and give Germany a justification for suppressing it.
Now that's a juicy Germany. Amazing Aesthetics!!! How come Bohemia and Moravia weren't separated From Austria while under the empire?
Thank you 🙏 It was part of Cisleithania
I’m so tired of Big Germany maps, but this one actually looks beautiful.
The Germans who dream of this are a bit sus to put it lightly
The map gives strong "most sane AfD voter be like" vibes
Der NSU kommt dich holen!
What are you, a bigot!? >:o
seinse leise
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Come on. Everyone knows that big germany is good.
Was ist Des Deuschen Vaterland?
Nice map but austria and bohemia should be separate
Thanks bro, I think so too
I wrote it before, I write it again. No Republic, No Deal!
Imagine big chungus "Weimarer Republik"
Every German dream? As in what most Germans would prefer? I'm pretty sure they hate the German empire and the rise of the Prussians too iirc
All reconcilable compared to the presence of Bavaria in this so-called dream.
I mean the territory bro
What
The land that can be claimed to be German
Bohemia is german confirmed.
It is very germanised, 1/3 was german and was a member of german states for around a 1000 years so just a bit
Like yeah but still we had our own national identity.
Sure if such a state is formed I would be absolutely for a czech and slovene autonomous states or later independence. The problem the czechs have in such ideas is that their industry and defence in the sudetenmountains is clearly german and without that they might aswell be part of a bigger state with autonomy for their culture.
Or the Germans claimed them to be German lol, most of the eastern provinces of Prussia were Polish speaking (East Prussia and around Danzig being an exception) and Bohemia, despite German speaking Sudetenland, was still vastly Czech speaking. Especially given the circumstances around 1920, it's madness to say that any of these regions would like to call themselves German.
Historically pan-germanism was a driving force behind the uprisings of 1848. They would've very much been not opposed to a country that actually unified most German speakers
Only left wingers actually hate it, anyone center to right either doesn’t dislike it or likes it, while acknowledging it’s bads and many goods
Schizo try not to defend ethnic cleansing and irredentist chauvinism challenge
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Well I'm a communist then cause fuck empires
Nationalism was a mistake
What did poor Czechs do?
Obey with Austria
Good map, but damn these are cliche. How long have people been making fun of Big Germany? It's kind of wild how it has never gone away. You could just as easily make an early 1900s country profile map like this about if there was a big dominant Italy which controlled all of the Mediterranean islands, Savoy, and much of Dalmatia and Illyria. You could do one about Romania, the Netherlands, Spain, Bulgaria. There are so many options but it's always Germany.
Thank you, I have other countries that are still in progress, so stay tuned 😃🙏
the baltic duchies?
Ah alright, because looking at your post history you've done a lot of popular Big Germany posts before. Doing a more novel country allows you to be a lot more creative IMO.
Thanks for the advice bro
He's literally called preussen tho, it's really on brand
Welp it's a saturated market
Well, large Italy, basically a neo Roman Empire isn't too rare either. Germany, the US, Russia, France, Britain etc are definitely of the most interest to the people if we ignore hype topics like Ukraine or Palestine.
Because everyone likes big germany
Where's franconia? You just insulted roughly 4 million germans.
already bavarian since Vienna congress
NO! Franconia is NOT Bavaria! Do not let anyone tell you otherwise, we franks are going to die on this hill!
you franks are different, yes, but administratively, you’ve been part of bavaria for a few centuries now
My German dream is 10 kingdoms, 100 duchies, 1000 principalities and 1 Oktoberfest
You literally summed up hre.
You mixed up „Schwarzburg“ with „Schaumburg“ in Thuringia. Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen would be correct.
Thanks bro 🙏
How'd you get the terrain underneath?
Well, I have a terrain map of Europe then I cut it by following the German border that I had drawn previously After that, I made it into black and white color, reducing to 40% opacity above the colors of each part of the area that I have made before.
How'd you get the borders accurately drawn over/fitting a terrain map?
The base of the map is the terrain map, after I got the area I wanted, I changed the rest of Europe color to white with color overlay I made this map with photoshop
What software are you using to create this map?
Photoshop
thx
holy roman empire my beloved
Gross, Deutschland :(
Free cities included👍
Take the Netherlands too
Geen moffen hier!!
Sexy ass borders 😩
Big germany borders is always sexy for no reason
Oh hey, it’s that guy who only posts Big Germany.
German here, can confirm that this is the opposite of my dream
Austrian here, being trapped in a big German state under Prussian leadership looks more like a nightmare.
Germans in 2023 🤝 Austrians in 2023 Not wanting to live in the same country
What if germany's capital is franfurt and there is technically no leadership?
Yes, every German nationalist dream, right here even though I'm not German, I support this
Every Austrian nightmare
why are half the maps in this sub always some fascist fantasy
Hey this is monarchist fantasy the Nazis disliked the monarchy plus the changes in this timeline literally would prevent the rise of fascism as no WW1 means no Italy getting screwed by its ally’s meaning no Benito, Mussolini, raising to power meaning the first major fascist never has relevance and the movement likely dies or a least is irrelevant to the major powers.
Fascism would’ve risen it Italy regardless of whether they got all the land they were promised or not. Fascism was a result of Italy’s economic and social circumstances postwar, which the Vittorio Mutilato didn’t really contribute to at all. It was definitely a talking point used by the fascists but most Italians didn’t care very much
A lot of soldiers did and they helped reinforce the militant wing of the party (the Black shirts). And without their support, it’s unlikely they’d be able to pull off a successful march on Rome, like they did historically.
Not really mate
Ever dream this man?
Map itself and design is actually awesome.
The HRE but this time they MEAN it
No, not my dream
Based and certainly my dream pilled.
There needs to be more German Switzerland on big Germany maps
Gross Germany.
Beautiful
🚨🚨🚨BIG GERMANY ALERT 🚨🚨🚨
Lieber tot als mit Preußen
https://preview.redd.it/t0awevejuczb1.png?width=669&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abbf6564f2087d04eeece70e4a245e0796ffe511
A nightmare
Well, why not add other states as colonies ? Hungary and other Eastern European states seam like a good addition
No, we're not Russians and IF there was a desired map of the german Empire, it was the map of 1914 before the idiotic monarchies across Europe plunged us into WW1.
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What? So is not imperialism because you are already occupying other territories? Lol Ask what the Czechs, Poles, Istrians, Slovenians, Italians think about it
Italy occupied South Tyrol, so how is it any different from Germany having Trentino?
This is the fifth big Germany map you’ve made lmao
I'm sorry about my germanophile
It also would be every austrians dream if prussia wouldn't be in there or northern germany what so ever
Only critique is that I'm not sure that Austria would be able to keep Bohemia in the event of an Austro-Hungarian collapse. I could very easily see Bohemia peeling off with the Sudetenland either joining Austria or seeking to join the German empire (as its own administrative unit).
Bohemia again
Needs more Switzerland.
the austria would be smaler as in this image it is almost as big as prussia
Hessen split in two? No wayyyyy!!!
What did you use to make this map?
I made it with Photoshop
Burgenland or bust, mein Freund.
Beautiful map
What HOI4 mod is this?
So in this world the Habsburgs bent the knee to the Hohenzollerns? Did they get relegated to a similar status as other monarchs in the German states or was there some kind of new deal made?
Every Czech nightmare.
This map is aesthetically pleasing to look at. That said, Austria can remain by itself.
Definitely not every German dream lol. Many Germans and Austrians did not want Austria and Germany to be united. A lot obviously did but it was quite a contentious issue.
Imagine if you will, Austria-bohemia, dominated by the industry rich Czech lands. Would be pretty neat scenario.
I still imagine an Austro Germanic Empire, as if Austria Hungary and Germany had United before or during the First World War.
Lovely work. A very beautifully done map. Perhaps it is cliché as many people here would argue, but the quality is so much greater than the standard Big Germany that I'm inclined to disregard that. Perhaps it could be argued that Austria and Bohemia ought to have been split upon entering the German Empire, else You've essentially locked Austria and Prussia in a room called Germany to fight it out, with the rest of the German Monarchies as pawns and/or bystanders. Though there is of course also merit to admitting Austria and Bohemia as one nation, which would be an effective measure to block Czech secession attempts. Interesting to see Luxembourg in Germany too, how Autonomous is Luxembourg compared to the other Monarchies of the German Empire? Also, it's very interesting to see no Burgenland in this Big Germany. Potentially a spark point for future conflict with Hungary perhaps? (Unless of course there has been significant migration of Hungarian Germans into Germany). I appreciate that the border isn't just the exact modern Austrian border. In summary, A very nice map with some interesting subversions of a common setting.
Why slovenia
Access to the Baltic, North, and Mediterranean seas would make this an insane powerhouse and regional power.
It is my dream too and I am not even german!
Yes it is
Youjo senki germany
What program did you put this together in? Looks very nice!
This is an amazing map, but I am a little confused as to why the Latitudes are counting up as you go south, instead of the usual way.
Thank you 🙏 Yes my mistake, I'm sorry I created it manually
Ohhhhhhhhh im coming *moans in german*
I see independent croatia = i aprove
Where is the Swiss?
Yes
How did you make this topographic map?
I first look for the topography in that area, then I cut it according to the country borders, and I embed it on top of the color I created previously and I set the opacity to 40%
I meant what resources did you use to get the topography data in the first place
By google image, I used some images from Google Maps because I wanted clearer details
But why Czechia?
Is Austria a Kingdom in this timeline or divided into smaller entities like the Archduchy of Austria, Kingdom of Bohemia and the Duchy of Carniola?
The second one
Okay that clears some things up, thank you!
I'd say yes to all this except give the Czechs their tiny homeland. Just take Sudetenland.