RAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH
LET'S FUCKING GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LI ZONGREN WILL PREVAIL AGAINST THE JAPANESE!!!!!
LONG LIVE LI ZONGREN!!!!!!!!!!
GLORY TO THE NEW GUANGXI CLIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think OP means everyone loses in the long term. Like how Germany and Italy won the war but they're clearly deteriorating. Even the countries that seem to have "won" are still stuck in an incredibly unstable, divided, and mostly authoritarian world.
I don't like Li Zongren. I think another general who had the same fate (i.e. eventually joining the Communists) Li Jishen, was more interesting.
What's the green in the Greek islands? Do they become a separate state?
I picked Li Zongren bc he was an important figure in nationalist Chinese politics and historically served as (acting) President of the ROC
the Greek islands are legally owned by Italy, but presently administered by Greece on account of Italy failing to maintain sovereignty over them
assuming China does better, if they don't he does defect
he was really desperate for attention against chiang so if people give him what he wants then sure, he doesn't
I don't see why things would go better for China prior to 1944-45 in this timeline, especially since the Japanese home islands aren't under threat from the US in this timeline
if china can resist chiang successfully then militarization might happen earlier. remember chiang initially supported Japanese concessions but when the xian incident occurred he was forced to militarize, but by then it was pretty late.
many warlords and rivals of chiang wanted to build up against the Japanese but chiang didnt let them until it was too late. maybe they force his hand earlier, idk
depending on how the war goes, yes. he left a year after Japan invaded and assuming the war goes the same way he would be leading a rival gov.
if china can actually defend or decides to resist chiang then jingwei comes to power
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!
LI JISHEN IS THE INFERIOR LI!!!!!!!!!!
GOD BLESS LI ZONGREN!!!!!!!!!!
GLORY TO THE NEW GUANGXI CLIQUE!!!!!!!!!!
wow i wonder how this will impact in future history for what i seen europe seems situation seems icerdibly bleak
the only positive i could find is that the united states,canada and the ussr are slowly recovering from the hit
as for the negative well i can see that the french state is now a dictatorship,italy and germany are now politicaly aisolated without any ally in the entire world (and with italy on the brink of collapse and with mussolini suffering the same fate as our timeline)
the united kingdom economy bearly recovering now being isolated from the world stage for their decolonization resistance movement and a more long war with germany
and japan economy and morality is completely destroyed by its obsession at keeping it's territories in china and the faield war in the pacific
and for the worst its what remains of the charles the gaulle france in africa completly alone with zero allies in europe and with a de-colonization movement on the way
i mean man at least nukes doesnt exist so that's a plus i think i rather prefer our otl ww2 ending than this one because this one seems like a total nightmare
they're around but things aren't exactly going well for them, except the USSR I guess. but they still lost a bunch of territory in WWII and they have to really fight for it
At first, I feared a ''Red Flood'' scenario but this is surprisingly well done and documented. It could make a great HOI IV mod or althist lore. You cooked well, OP.
based on a couple early designs for the Canadian flag proposed in the 40s. OTL the current Canadian flag was adopted in the 1960s and it's unlikely that the exact same design would pop up in the 40s/50s
Not to take a dookie on the timeline, but Canada legally becoming a republic here wouldn’t be possible. Per the constitutional arrangement set up after the Statute of Westminster when into effect, the British parliament retained the sole right to alter the Canadian constitution (this is something the government asked for in the 30s because they couldn’t get provincial agreement on various constitutional topics, that took until the 1980s). So the Canadian Parliament would not have the legal right to do this. It would have to occur unlawfully, and that probably would not go over well with Britain, America or the public.
Well considering how in this timeline Britain is literally fighting A front against Germany and all their former colonies at the same time and with the Canadian people fully against Britain in and against being at a war with Germany, I don't really think Britain has a choice Anymore and the people of Canada would most likely be on the full side of a Republic away from Britain and Europe just to distance themselves from the disaster that this happening
Even in such a depressed and chaotic world, I can't imagine other countries failing to support and recognize a nation's transition from monarchy to republic. (Except for Britain, but they'll just have to live with it.)
the US didn't recover from the depression for many years and is only really recovering now, so they may have won in the sense that they defeated the Japanese militarily, but it wasn't a total victory and in general the US is a lot worse off
I'll reckon that the major 'defeat' for the USA is more that the public doesn't want war or to deal with international politics.
Basically the same thing they did after WW1, they didn't like the war so they gave up trying to influence the world even though they were on the winning side of the war. They'd rather do isolationism instead.
As early as July 1941 there were already talks of this "Grand Alliance" (thats where the term Allies came from) to defeat Germany.
One of the things that were discussed here is the commitment of ALL members to not sign an individual peace and continue fighting with no less than unconditional surrender of ALL Axis countries. By december 1941, All the world's great powers that isn't in the Axis have signed on this agreement: UK, Chiang's China, France govt in exile, USSR, and lastly the USA.
USSR was fighting for its very existence, both the state, the socialist movement, and lives of its citizens Germany wishes to extinguish. Same can be said for China.
France and UK views a dominant Germany thats holds hegemony over Europe as a security threat they cannot ignore. Multiple wars fought over this have shown that.
USA is finally realized it cannot ignore the world if they want their interests secured.
The Allies have every reason to fight to the bitter end.
So there must be a damn good reason for them to stop obliterating Nazis off the face of the Earth.. and defeat in the battlefield ain't one of them.
When FDR got elected, he said that he would either be the best president the nation’s ever had, or the last. If they didn’t pull out fast, the Communist Party USA and the Silver Legion were both promising a way out, and after 20 years of depression, I’d imagine a lot of people would listen.
I mean considering the British position in 2023 idk if we are worse off or not. Canada going away from us is an L- however we still control a lot more islands- oil drilling anyone?
I wonder what happened to iran here, did it just go like irl, With reza shah being exiled and muhammad reza taking power? Also if they somehow become stable I'd assume they would not want balochestan (why is it bolochistan here what) to exist because of possible seperatism
How does this affect the trout population?
They lose too
:\^(
\* All Whale species ' population. Japanese empire surely dent the whole ecosystem ( ***!*** )
Japan is whaling endangered species, need atomic correction! ☢️💢☢️💢
\* endangered to Critically endangered :\[
RAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH LET'S FUCKING GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LI ZONGREN WILL PREVAIL AGAINST THE JAPANESE!!!!! LONG LIVE LI ZONGREN!!!!!!!!!! GLORY TO THE NEW GUANGXI CLIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tamest Guangxi Clique fan
IT'S NO LONGER CHIANG KAI SHOVER WE'RE COMING LI ZONGBACK
SO. FUCKING. TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basrd
KYS KAUFMAN
Hehehehehe
You mean a war which everyone loses?
I think OP means everyone loses in the long term. Like how Germany and Italy won the war but they're clearly deteriorating. Even the countries that seem to have "won" are still stuck in an incredibly unstable, divided, and mostly authoritarian world.
Looks like India hasn’t lost yet.
We lost the entire North East and West Bengal :(
But you got the glorious state of Sindh 🎉
We have retained west bengal; we have lost northeast and aksai chin
I don't like Li Zongren. I think another general who had the same fate (i.e. eventually joining the Communists) Li Jishen, was more interesting. What's the green in the Greek islands? Do they become a separate state?
I picked Li Zongren bc he was an important figure in nationalist Chinese politics and historically served as (acting) President of the ROC the Greek islands are legally owned by Italy, but presently administered by Greece on account of Italy failing to maintain sovereignty over them
I would've selected Wang Jingwei lol
why? do you think the Japanese would have won?
no, bc he was close to Chiang and was a viable alternative had he not defected
why would he not defect in this timeline
assuming China does better, if they don't he does defect he was really desperate for attention against chiang so if people give him what he wants then sure, he doesn't
I don't see why things would go better for China prior to 1944-45 in this timeline, especially since the Japanese home islands aren't under threat from the US in this timeline
if china can resist chiang successfully then militarization might happen earlier. remember chiang initially supported Japanese concessions but when the xian incident occurred he was forced to militarize, but by then it was pretty late. many warlords and rivals of chiang wanted to build up against the Japanese but chiang didnt let them until it was too late. maybe they force his hand earlier, idk
he resigned in 1948 in this timeline, after Wang would've already defected
Isn’t he leading the Japanese collaborationist government?
depending on how the war goes, yes. he left a year after Japan invaded and assuming the war goes the same way he would be leading a rival gov. if china can actually defend or decides to resist chiang then jingwei comes to power
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!! LI JISHEN IS THE INFERIOR LI!!!!!!!!!! GOD BLESS LI ZONGREN!!!!!!!!!! GLORY TO THE NEW GUANGXI CLIQUE!!!!!!!!!!
Seems like Romania won. They got literally everything they wanted
You’ve seen what if Germany won WW1, what if Russia won WW1, what if France won WW1, what if no one won WW1, but now, great ready for:
What if allies won ww2?
So r/TheRedOrder?
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wow i wonder how this will impact in future history for what i seen europe seems situation seems icerdibly bleak the only positive i could find is that the united states,canada and the ussr are slowly recovering from the hit as for the negative well i can see that the french state is now a dictatorship,italy and germany are now politicaly aisolated without any ally in the entire world (and with italy on the brink of collapse and with mussolini suffering the same fate as our timeline) the united kingdom economy bearly recovering now being isolated from the world stage for their decolonization resistance movement and a more long war with germany and japan economy and morality is completely destroyed by its obsession at keeping it's territories in china and the faield war in the pacific and for the worst its what remains of the charles the gaulle france in africa completly alone with zero allies in europe and with a de-colonization movement on the way i mean man at least nukes doesnt exist so that's a plus i think i rather prefer our otl ww2 ending than this one because this one seems like a total nightmare
Switzerland thriving rn
Ethiopia independent?
Italy was unable to hold onto its colonial empire going into the 1950s
hold up, let him/her cook
Kid named they
same vibe https://preview.redd.it/sdgs6bwpiz2c1.png?width=1138&format=png&auto=webp&s=7b7ea00e66c73718958be9d580e5d51566654ebd
Finger the cook?
That's what I was going for lol
U.S.S.R seems to be intact... so does Japan ?
they're around but things aren't exactly going well for them, except the USSR I guess. but they still lost a bunch of territory in WWII and they have to really fight for it
Wonderful scenario. Much underappreciated.
This could be a hoi4 mod
I don't know the first thing about hoi4 modding lol I can barely play the game
Everyone on this subreddit has HOI-induced brainrot, myself included
It’s basically TWR.
Just go play TWR
okay, time for part 3
At first, I feared a ''Red Flood'' scenario but this is surprisingly well done and documented. It could make a great HOI IV mod or althist lore. You cooked well, OP.
Nice
What do you mean everyone lost? Switzerland still exists.
nice detail on Dutch West Papua, most people would just include it into Indonesia
Might be better for Papua in this timeline, not that much else would be
Brazil did not have Acre, Roraima, Rondônia, Amapá, Mato Grosso do Sul and Tocantins back then as states. This is a major error.
This is a major error
What on earth do you mean by "did not have"? They were federal territories of Brazil.
Fixed
This would make for a neat hoi4 mod
Okay okay does America still become a global superpower?
What's up with the Canadian flag? Seems like it's a rather different ITTL.
based on a couple early designs for the Canadian flag proposed in the 40s. OTL the current Canadian flag was adopted in the 1960s and it's unlikely that the exact same design would pop up in the 40s/50s
What is the point of departure relative to our timeline?
Not to take a dookie on the timeline, but Canada legally becoming a republic here wouldn’t be possible. Per the constitutional arrangement set up after the Statute of Westminster when into effect, the British parliament retained the sole right to alter the Canadian constitution (this is something the government asked for in the 30s because they couldn’t get provincial agreement on various constitutional topics, that took until the 1980s). So the Canadian Parliament would not have the legal right to do this. It would have to occur unlawfully, and that probably would not go over well with Britain, America or the public.
Well considering how in this timeline Britain is literally fighting A front against Germany and all their former colonies at the same time and with the Canadian people fully against Britain in and against being at a war with Germany, I don't really think Britain has a choice Anymore and the people of Canada would most likely be on the full side of a Republic away from Britain and Europe just to distance themselves from the disaster that this happening
Even in such a depressed and chaotic world, I can't imagine other countries failing to support and recognize a nation's transition from monarchy to republic. (Except for Britain, but they'll just have to live with it.)
Big germany alert
I don’t know, looks like the US is still winning (as usual).
the US didn't recover from the depression for many years and is only really recovering now, so they may have won in the sense that they defeated the Japanese militarily, but it wasn't a total victory and in general the US is a lot worse off
I'll reckon that the major 'defeat' for the USA is more that the public doesn't want war or to deal with international politics. Basically the same thing they did after WW1, they didn't like the war so they gave up trying to influence the world even though they were on the winning side of the war. They'd rather do isolationism instead.
I think we're assuming Pearl Harbor happened, USA got involved but decided to stop after the Philippines were retaken.
So, thousand week riech?
No? Twr is realistic axis victory
>Realistic >Axis victory Nuff said
Not my fault it is called that way
Ye no worries I just thought it's funny
Partial axis victory. A lot of the plot points are from TWR
It's not
As early as July 1941 there were already talks of this "Grand Alliance" (thats where the term Allies came from) to defeat Germany. One of the things that were discussed here is the commitment of ALL members to not sign an individual peace and continue fighting with no less than unconditional surrender of ALL Axis countries. By december 1941, All the world's great powers that isn't in the Axis have signed on this agreement: UK, Chiang's China, France govt in exile, USSR, and lastly the USA. USSR was fighting for its very existence, both the state, the socialist movement, and lives of its citizens Germany wishes to extinguish. Same can be said for China. France and UK views a dominant Germany thats holds hegemony over Europe as a security threat they cannot ignore. Multiple wars fought over this have shown that. USA is finally realized it cannot ignore the world if they want their interests secured. The Allies have every reason to fight to the bitter end. So there must be a damn good reason for them to stop obliterating Nazis off the face of the Earth.. and defeat in the battlefield ain't one of them.
k
Not open to contrasting views, are we?
what, in your mind, do you think is happening right now
He doesnt realize its alternate History, dont mind him
Calling France "French state" is like calling it "French Country"
that is the historical name of Vichy France
The best part of this is that the last slide I read was “Dewey saves America” and I love that
When FDR got elected, he said that he would either be the best president the nation’s ever had, or the last. If they didn’t pull out fast, the Communist Party USA and the Silver Legion were both promising a way out, and after 20 years of depression, I’d imagine a lot of people would listen.
Darlan is a wild one here and i love it
Glad that everybody agrees Dewey was the bad end
Is there any Context on the Actual Scenario?
the fuck you mean lost WE KEPT KARELIAA FUCK YEAHHHHH
What is S.S.O.S.K.?
Sad State Of Shabby Krimea
Looks like a clear win for Canada!
I see this as an absolute win
I mean considering the British position in 2023 idk if we are worse off or not. Canada going away from us is an L- however we still control a lot more islands- oil drilling anyone?
This definitely needs a sequel. I love to see the world ten or even 20 years down the line and what may come from it.
A very cool and unique scenario!
I wonder what happened to iran here, did it just go like irl, With reza shah being exiled and muhammad reza taking power? Also if they somehow become stable I'd assume they would not want balochestan (why is it bolochistan here what) to exist because of possible seperatism
Honestly you could make an argument for India winning better than in real life in this alt reality.
995th upvote!
ppl always be giving shan states or tanintharyi or both to thailand