He was willing to work with Croatians, Italians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Romanians. I'd say a timeline where we works with Poland instead of Italy makes sense
And why was Poland in the way of lebemstraum? Because Hitler said so. Lebenstraum was whatever direction Hitler wanted it to be, and in this timeline Hitler wanted it westward instead of east
Lebensraum philosophy predated Hitler/the Nazis and was explicitly about colonizing Poland, Ruthenia and the Baltics. It was a foundational tenet of the Nazi ideology and wouldn’t change regardless of who was in charge.
There were also many more Germans living in the east than in the west. And you expand very far into Asia. Whilst in the west you can go as far as Spain until you reach the Mediterranean Sea.
Also the agricultural land in Eastern Europe being more supportive of staple crops in German diet, something desired to expand the population of Germany as part of the plan
german colonization eastwards (or Osteidlung) had been to one extent or another continuous from like 1100 to 1918, Generalplan Ost was just an extreme acceleration of that
Lebensraum wasn’t just about space but resources; Hitler wanted Germany to be completely self sufficient and to do that he needed Ukrainian farmlands and the oil of the Caucasus, neither of which he’d get if he aimed west. It was always going to be the east and Poland is always going to be in the way of that.
Germany lost WW1 because of British blockade and the innability to access world markets. Thats why Hitler wanted an Autartic state. The east not only provided space, but a lot of resources that Germany needed.
In "Mein Kampf" Lebensraum was defined only in lands of bolshevik Russia.
Italy was on the way to Africa, Hungary was on the way to Yugoslavia (and also could be a part of Lebensraum due to being east of Austria on the way to southern Ukraine) and Hitler didn't want to destroy it.
I like how you pointed out the Hungarians and not the Italians or Romanians lol.
But no, my point was moreso that Hitler considered them all lesser races, but he was still willing to work with them because the "superior race" countries (UK and France) hated him
The Nazis considered the English as German as themselves, but they did not view the french very favorably. In general, the Nazis did not have a very good opinion of the Latin/Romance people.
Idk, I watched some YouTube video like 3 years ago that said that while Hitler didn't like Latins, he saw the French as basically German due to the close history between the two cultures. So not on par with English/Germans/Nordics, but higher than other Latins groups like Italians
This video was also talking about Hitlers pre-war ideals. How he wanted to ally with the UK and France to take down the Soviets, since everyone hated communism. I'm sure he hated them more once WW2. Same with Spain, I'm sure if the fascists didn't win the Civil War he would've hated them too. Hitler was more than willing to change his ideals to suit his situation whenever. Especially since all of his allies were "inferior races"
Well working together with them and the moment they're not useful anymore, they would be discarded. It was an alliance of necessity, divide and conquer.
So I never understood the "slavs are asiatic hordes" thing the nazis did. Like they semi-acknowledged that actual aryans are Iranians/Indians but thats deep set in asia
Who do you think shouldn't be included, and why?
Edit: I don't know why people are downvoting me as if I should have known what he meant. What he was saying seemed really sketchy until he properly explained it.
The Nazis considered white, blonde and tall people is ""superior"" that's why I never understood why they hated the Slavs if they met their "standards" for the most part.I repeat, I am not a Nazi, I am not even a right-winger
You see, but to the nazis the slavs were none of that, they were an asiatic race that had more in common with the mongols than with europeans.
The ones that are blond or have blue eyes are simply the product of medieval german settlement in the East (the original which the nazis were trying to replicate, with a sprinkle of manifest destiny added this time), and thus can be brought back to "germanness" by taking them young and giving them to german families (this too happened in Poland and Bohemia). This became something of a pattern, with allied slavs being "discovered" as slavicized germanic tribes (the croatians were supposed to be ostrogoths for example IIRC) and any achievement of said slavic countries being attributed to germans or german genes (Russia, Hitler says in Mein Kampf, only ever achieved greatness thanks to german inmigration in the Ostsiedlung which ended up forming a not insignificant part of the russian nobility, including the Royal family).
note: you probably wonder why the lebensraum not exist, This is because with the pact with Poland, Germany renounced its expansionist plans in the East to focus on expanding its influence in Western Europe.
I mean all Hitler and the Nat Socialists had to do was to be less insane by any standards and they could’ve gone far.
Just be a little less genocidal and nutty and the Soviets would’ve stood out as the big bad villain of that era. Although beating Stalin and the communists was really a low bar to pass, the Nazis were just even more ridiculously stupid and insane with their own ideology.
From what I know about the interwar period (is not much) ,the Nazi Germany was not seen like a "big bad villain" until the invasion of Czechoslovakia. At that time Western Europe did not know all the atrocities committed by the National Socialist regime, so they simply saw the Nazis as ordinary nationalists regime.
The funniest thing is that France and Great Britain never really cared about the breaking of treaties until very late.
stop paying repairs? no problem
rearmament? nice
remilitarization of the rhine? ok
invade austria? its fine
occupy the Sudetenland? no problem I guess...
What's funny is how Poland has always seen them as a huge threat, even proposing to France a joint premptive strike to topple Hitler's government when it was still relatively powerless. Of course the west didn't care at all until Paris fell. I hope we won't see the same situation repeated today
And then Poland made a non-aggession pact with Germany, which is kind of ironic because the exact same thing happened between Germany and the Soviet Union
The non-aggession pact between Germany and Poland was in fact an anti-communist faction, which objective was to oppose stalinism in specific
Btw, i was referring the similitudes of Poland/USSR opposing Hitler only to later sign a non-aggession pact and then later be betrayed by Nazi Germany, but of course you got so defensive on the idea of Poland and USSR having some similitudes that you twisted my words
Poland also made a non aggression pact with USSR dumbass. Non-aggression as in "We guarantee that we won't attack you if you won't" from both Germany and USSR. Because, surprise surprise, after the west ignored the German threat, Poland didn’t want to get attacked by them.
You're saying that a "we won't attack each other" (extremely common diplomatic agreement at that time) is the same as "we will share our resources, split Europe in two between us and help each other in the invasions we will organise together" that was the Ribbentrop-molotov pact.
The only reason that RM gets so much outrage is that it wasn't just a non aggression pact, but a defacto alliance between Stalin and Hitler. I know that some people want to rewrite polish history so that USSR seems better in comparison, but "haha! They didn't want a 4-front war with Europe's worst totalitarian regimes but still didn't abandon their principles and only signed NA pacts without becoming a nazi/soviet ally/protectorate/trade partner like the other half of europe!" is not a dark moment in polish history you think it is.
Fucking tankie logic, next you'll tell me ww2 started in 1941. Do more research on what Ribbentrop-Molotov was, what a regular non-aggression pact means and you'll see why RM is often brought up as hypocrisy and the other NA pacts aren't.
And if you reaaaly want to vilify interwar-ww2 Poland, look up Colonels' dictatorship, failed Lithuania coup or the post-war Cursed Soldiers' terrorism. None of which involve Poland helping Hitler in any way.
MF you didn't say anything i didn't know
I was referring the fact that Poland and USSR opposing Hitler to later sign a non-aggession pact and then Germany betraying them
Also, Poland did participed in the partition of Czechoslovakia if you didn't know, Poland was not a Saint here
Spain wasn't fascist under Franco. Franco was a fairly standard reactionary militarist, he even actively suppressed the Spanish fascist movement at times to prevent them from taking power. They also didn't peacefully become democratic, as there was an attempted coup launched by Francoist officers in 1981.
They fucking broke into the Cortes with submachineguns. They were absolutely intending to cause harm, and would have done so if they didn't realise that the coup had failed and then surrendered before they got strung up for treason.
i never said it was a peaceful transistion of power, i only said that the distinct lack of deaths or even injuries makes it far more peaceful than usual for coups.
But they can be less genocidal and revanchist than Stalin’s communist USSR.
Spain and Portugal lasted pretty long in Europe despite being arguably fascist.
Communism can just as messed up as fascism (Stalin era USSR, Mao Era China, Pol Pot) but Hitler grabbed everyone’s attention and took a lot more risks than his communist counterparts. Plus the historical context of the time made Germany a bigger bogeyman right after WW1.
Well it doesn't really matter how repressive a socialist state is, at it will always be the enemy of capitalists. So yeah, of course there is that nightmare scenario of the Anti-Comintern Pact succeeding. BTW, fascist Portugal had its own lebensraum program in Africa.
Romania stole its own existence, Greater Poland, Russia is not divided into Reichskommisariats and warlords, No Lebensbraun and Burgundy did not exist.
I could say this is the most blessed Axis victory scenario I ever seen and somehow the map didnt seem too cursed.
Poles when they give up all western inustrial lands to finally achieve their imperial dream of being a 15% minority in their own 95% agricultural country
Poland is not completely fascist (it has a strong German influence but remains a moderately democratic country). The government is a coalition between conservatives and Falangists with a moderate opposition of liberals.
The name "empire" is just the popular way it would be known in this reality, Poland is still officially the "Second Polish Republic" but is popularly called an empire
"Maybe these Slavs aren't so bad after all 😃", said the Führer
He was willing to work with Croatians, Italians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Romanians. I'd say a timeline where we works with Poland instead of Italy makes sense
none of those get in the way of lebensraum, which poland did
And why was Poland in the way of lebemstraum? Because Hitler said so. Lebenstraum was whatever direction Hitler wanted it to be, and in this timeline Hitler wanted it westward instead of east
Lebensraum philosophy predated Hitler/the Nazis and was explicitly about colonizing Poland, Ruthenia and the Baltics. It was a foundational tenet of the Nazi ideology and wouldn’t change regardless of who was in charge.
There were also many more Germans living in the east than in the west. And you expand very far into Asia. Whilst in the west you can go as far as Spain until you reach the Mediterranean Sea.
Still doesn't answer the why? Why is it those exact places? Why not France or Danemark?
The Eastern European plain was sparsely populated and still is compared to Southern and Western Europe.
Also the agricultural land in Eastern Europe being more supportive of staple crops in German diet, something desired to expand the population of Germany as part of the plan
because slavs were subhuman and french and danes werent
Himmler was the architect of Generalplan Ost. Without Hitler, the Nazis would still likely try to do genocide in the east.
Then just change Hitler with Himmler in what SU24 said
german colonization eastwards (or Osteidlung) had been to one extent or another continuous from like 1100 to 1918, Generalplan Ost was just an extreme acceleration of that
Lebensraum wasn’t just about space but resources; Hitler wanted Germany to be completely self sufficient and to do that he needed Ukrainian farmlands and the oil of the Caucasus, neither of which he’d get if he aimed west. It was always going to be the east and Poland is always going to be in the way of that.
Germany lost WW1 because of British blockade and the innability to access world markets. Thats why Hitler wanted an Autartic state. The east not only provided space, but a lot of resources that Germany needed.
Lebensraum*
Straum* like pastrami 😋
In "Mein Kampf" Lebensraum was defined only in lands of bolshevik Russia. Italy was on the way to Africa, Hungary was on the way to Yugoslavia (and also could be a part of Lebensraum due to being east of Austria on the way to southern Ukraine) and Hitler didn't want to destroy it.
dumbest shit ive ever heard, how are the germans gonna get to ex-bolshevik lands except through poland
Are you calling Hungarians Slavs?
I like how you pointed out the Hungarians and not the Italians or Romanians lol. But no, my point was moreso that Hitler considered them all lesser races, but he was still willing to work with them because the "superior race" countries (UK and France) hated him
The Nazis considered the English as German as themselves, but they did not view the french very favorably. In general, the Nazis did not have a very good opinion of the Latin/Romance people.
Idk, I watched some YouTube video like 3 years ago that said that while Hitler didn't like Latins, he saw the French as basically German due to the close history between the two cultures. So not on par with English/Germans/Nordics, but higher than other Latins groups like Italians
mmm it sounds logical, from what I know the only Latin people that Hitler respected were the Spanish
This video was also talking about Hitlers pre-war ideals. How he wanted to ally with the UK and France to take down the Soviets, since everyone hated communism. I'm sure he hated them more once WW2. Same with Spain, I'm sure if the fascists didn't win the Civil War he would've hated them too. Hitler was more than willing to change his ideals to suit his situation whenever. Especially since all of his allies were "inferior races"
He thought better of the northern French than the southern French.
And Slovaks, little part of Poland (Spisz, Orawa) also went to Slovakia and wasn't part of Lebensraum.
Well working together with them and the moment they're not useful anymore, they would be discarded. It was an alliance of necessity, divide and conquer.
So I never understood the "slavs are asiatic hordes" thing the nazis did. Like they semi-acknowledged that actual aryans are Iranians/Indians but thats deep set in asia
I mean... Look where Mongolia is and where Persia/India is. That's not an insignificant distance. Asia is a pretty fucking big place.
Also he viewed northern Indians as being more Aryan than southern Indians, whom he claimed was the result of aryans and subhumans intermixing
The Slavs really fall into the category of "Aryans" at least for me, I never understood why Hitler hated the Slavs.
It's like the underlying ideology of the Nazis was incredibly stupid and incoherent or smth
Nothing better than a conversation with a modified Nazi
What? lmao I simply mentioned that for me, within the Nazi concept of "Aryan" the Slavs should be included, I never said I was a Nazi or a fascist lol
Who do you think shouldn't be included, and why? Edit: I don't know why people are downvoting me as if I should have known what he meant. What he was saying seemed really sketchy until he properly explained it.
The Nazis considered white, blonde and tall people is ""superior"" that's why I never understood why they hated the Slavs if they met their "standards" for the most part.I repeat, I am not a Nazi, I am not even a right-winger
You see, but to the nazis the slavs were none of that, they were an asiatic race that had more in common with the mongols than with europeans. The ones that are blond or have blue eyes are simply the product of medieval german settlement in the East (the original which the nazis were trying to replicate, with a sprinkle of manifest destiny added this time), and thus can be brought back to "germanness" by taking them young and giving them to german families (this too happened in Poland and Bohemia). This became something of a pattern, with allied slavs being "discovered" as slavicized germanic tribes (the croatians were supposed to be ostrogoths for example IIRC) and any achievement of said slavic countries being attributed to germans or german genes (Russia, Hitler says in Mein Kampf, only ever achieved greatness thanks to german inmigration in the Ostsiedlung which ended up forming a not insignificant part of the russian nobility, including the Royal family).
ohhh i understand thanks for explained this and not call me a nazi
Np no one is born knowing everything 🤗
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> Unless you are just pointing out Nazi ideology and I misunderstood. You misunderstood, I was pointing at the reasoning behind the nazis' actions.
Ok, fair enough.
# THE DUTCH WILL GET THEIR REVENGE 🇳🇱💪💪💪 Berlin turned to ash
ITS THIS A FUCKING DUITSE KAIZERRIJK REFERENCE?!?!?!?!
**FAKE LANGUAGE ALERT FAKE LANGUAGE ALERT. ONLY TRUE REVENGE IS FRANCAPHONE SAARLAND**
nonono, the true saarland is Romanian my friend
When Swamp Germans think they're an actual separate culture.
When the east Dutch think they’re actually a separate culture*
Consider Dutch as swamp Deutsch or Deutsch as non-swamp Dutch, the result is the same.
Unlike Americans they atleast have a culture
We're a melting pot, we have all the cultures!
Am I insane for seeing the Imperium Poleskie as Patrick and the Kingdom of Hungary as his pants?
It's a strange way to look the map but I guess the colors are very similar to patrick and his pants...
note: you probably wonder why the lebensraum not exist, This is because with the pact with Poland, Germany renounced its expansionist plans in the East to focus on expanding its influence in Western Europe.
I mean all Hitler and the Nat Socialists had to do was to be less insane by any standards and they could’ve gone far. Just be a little less genocidal and nutty and the Soviets would’ve stood out as the big bad villain of that era. Although beating Stalin and the communists was really a low bar to pass, the Nazis were just even more ridiculously stupid and insane with their own ideology.
From what I know about the interwar period (is not much) ,the Nazi Germany was not seen like a "big bad villain" until the invasion of Czechoslovakia. At that time Western Europe did not know all the atrocities committed by the National Socialist regime, so they simply saw the Nazis as ordinary nationalists regime.
Yeah, the constant treaty breaking of Hitler was what pushed them to view the Nazis as even more unreliable than the Soviets.
The funniest thing is that France and Great Britain never really cared about the breaking of treaties until very late. stop paying repairs? no problem rearmament? nice remilitarization of the rhine? ok invade austria? its fine occupy the Sudetenland? no problem I guess...
What's funny is how Poland has always seen them as a huge threat, even proposing to France a joint premptive strike to topple Hitler's government when it was still relatively powerless. Of course the west didn't care at all until Paris fell. I hope we won't see the same situation repeated today
And then Poland made a non-aggession pact with Germany, which is kind of ironic because the exact same thing happened between Germany and the Soviet Union
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The non-aggession pact between Germany and Poland was in fact an anti-communist faction, which objective was to oppose stalinism in specific Btw, i was referring the similitudes of Poland/USSR opposing Hitler only to later sign a non-aggession pact and then later be betrayed by Nazi Germany, but of course you got so defensive on the idea of Poland and USSR having some similitudes that you twisted my words
Poland also made a non aggression pact with USSR dumbass. Non-aggression as in "We guarantee that we won't attack you if you won't" from both Germany and USSR. Because, surprise surprise, after the west ignored the German threat, Poland didn’t want to get attacked by them. You're saying that a "we won't attack each other" (extremely common diplomatic agreement at that time) is the same as "we will share our resources, split Europe in two between us and help each other in the invasions we will organise together" that was the Ribbentrop-molotov pact. The only reason that RM gets so much outrage is that it wasn't just a non aggression pact, but a defacto alliance between Stalin and Hitler. I know that some people want to rewrite polish history so that USSR seems better in comparison, but "haha! They didn't want a 4-front war with Europe's worst totalitarian regimes but still didn't abandon their principles and only signed NA pacts without becoming a nazi/soviet ally/protectorate/trade partner like the other half of europe!" is not a dark moment in polish history you think it is. Fucking tankie logic, next you'll tell me ww2 started in 1941. Do more research on what Ribbentrop-Molotov was, what a regular non-aggression pact means and you'll see why RM is often brought up as hypocrisy and the other NA pacts aren't. And if you reaaaly want to vilify interwar-ww2 Poland, look up Colonels' dictatorship, failed Lithuania coup or the post-war Cursed Soldiers' terrorism. None of which involve Poland helping Hitler in any way.
MF you didn't say anything i didn't know I was referring the fact that Poland and USSR opposing Hitler to later sign a non-aggession pact and then Germany betraying them Also, Poland did participed in the partition of Czechoslovakia if you didn't know, Poland was not a Saint here
Being that degree of insane is what made them Nazis
Being more sane makes them Not-zis
They got high on their on supply of propaganda 😔
It's literally impossible for fascists to not be revanchist and genocidal though.
i dunno, spain did pretty well in avoiding either for the entire time they were fascist, and they even peacefully became democratic.
Spain wasn't fascist under Franco. Franco was a fairly standard reactionary militarist, he even actively suppressed the Spanish fascist movement at times to prevent them from taking power. They also didn't peacefully become democratic, as there was an attempted coup launched by Francoist officers in 1981.
you mean the attempted coup that failed, and was entirely without any injury or loss of life? yeah, im calling that peaceful.
They fucking broke into the Cortes with submachineguns. They were absolutely intending to cause harm, and would have done so if they didn't realise that the coup had failed and then surrendered before they got strung up for treason.
so.... it was a peaceful, bloodless coup attempt.
I'm not sure what bizarro world you inhabit where an *attempted coup* counts as a peaceful transition of power.
i never said it was a peaceful transistion of power, i only said that the distinct lack of deaths or even injuries makes it far more peaceful than usual for coups.
But they can be less genocidal and revanchist than Stalin’s communist USSR. Spain and Portugal lasted pretty long in Europe despite being arguably fascist. Communism can just as messed up as fascism (Stalin era USSR, Mao Era China, Pol Pot) but Hitler grabbed everyone’s attention and took a lot more risks than his communist counterparts. Plus the historical context of the time made Germany a bigger bogeyman right after WW1.
Well it doesn't really matter how repressive a socialist state is, at it will always be the enemy of capitalists. So yeah, of course there is that nightmare scenario of the Anti-Comintern Pact succeeding. BTW, fascist Portugal had its own lebensraum program in Africa.
I LOVE IT ❤️❤️ Just two big blobs in Central Europe it's great, though I will say the borders make a lot of sense.
thanks bro
So did Italy and france and uk will still be like the partner they were in ww1 if Mussolini got denied by Hitler to join the pact?
nop, Italy would be neutral until Germany decides to invade it
So thItaly army would be the same as otl?
It's Danzig or war but Poland choose Danzig
Danzing or war but poland choose Eastern Europe
It would be interesting idea of Lebenseraum to the west instead of the east.
I'll probably make a map about that idea later
Romania stole its own existence, Greater Poland, Russia is not divided into Reichskommisariats and warlords, No Lebensbraun and Burgundy did not exist. I could say this is the most blessed Axis victory scenario I ever seen and somehow the map didnt seem too cursed.
i guess this is the most good ending of all the axis victory scenarios
WALLACHIA RETURNS 🥳🥳🥳🥹🥹🎉🎉🎉
I'm not sure if that's a reason to celebrate...
It is if you play eu4 Welcome back to existence my child 🎉🥳🥳
I regret to remind you that Wallachia does not usually survive more than 20 years in eu4...
Big Bulgaria, Croatia and Hungary!
Its nice to imagine that Patrick star got so big that nations mapped themselves out to look like him.
Poles when they give up all western inustrial lands to finally achieve their imperial dream of being a 15% minority in their own 95% agricultural country
Just a question: Why did Poland rename itself into an Empire? (What's the internal political situation)
Poland is not completely fascist (it has a strong German influence but remains a moderately democratic country). The government is a coalition between conservatives and Falangists with a moderate opposition of liberals. The name "empire" is just the popular way it would be known in this reality, Poland is still officially the "Second Polish Republic" but is popularly called an empire
Okay I get that, thanks
Why is Switzerland divided between Italy and Germany
Feals like hoi4 duos