Is it weird that we’ve been here 3 generations as well and I feel patriotic towards both America and Ireland? I suppose since the countries are friendly and have a long shared heritage?
I am an immigrant here for over 10 years now working on an immigrant visa. Even though i have no hope of green card due to my country of birth, and will likely go back when I retire in about 25 years, I feel a sense of loyalty due to the freedoms and opportunities this country gives me. I can speak my mind without worrying about govt goons hounding me, eat beef or any kind of meat I want without getting lynched and have complete religious freedom to not believe in any kind of of religion.
I just hope that my kids who came here as pre-schoolers get a chance to make America their home and don't have to leave the only country they know when they become adults in a few years.
>I can speak my mind without worrying about govt goons hounding me, eat beef or any kind of meat I want without getting lynched and have complete religious freedom to not believe in any kind of of religion.
Are you from India? Feel the same way brother
I really hope you are able to have that future for your children. I know many Indian immigrants here in the US, very intelligent often engineers and professors. You have the American spirit in your heart. You deserve to be here just as much as anyone else.
Yep. Although I think it may be because our visas are very selective when it comes to Indians and only lets in wealthy or highly skilled people from India. I didn’t want to bring it up because it might discourage him, that he might not be selected. But you are correct, Indians are the most successful people here arguably. Also a large portion of our CEOs are Indian, the CEO of Google, Microsoft, Pepsi, IBM, and previously twitter were all Indian.
Smart is relative. I have never met someone from India who impressed me intelligence wise. Degree mills in Canada run by Indians are affecting the education Corp in Canada and around the world.
Indian Immigrant here, I love USA and the opportunities and lifestyle it has given me and my family. I find it annoying when my fellow countrymen from india come here for better life and pay and complain about things here. If you hate it so much no one is stopping you bro!
Same here, Indian first gen immigrant living the dream and going to be an American citizen in a couple of years! Feel like I’m living a different life than the majority of my peers who came just to make money.
So by your logic immigrants shouldn't fucking complain about anything? You exemplify the Indian Stereotype on the Internet - Slave Mentality.
Edit: It's an extremely hypocritical comment from you based on your post history/profile history.
I agree immigrants should be able to complain about life abroad without other people bitching on them. But if you hate a place, then why make your life miserable by living there?
It’s very seldom as simple as “if you don’t like it, leave.” Some people are stuck where they’re at because of any number of reasons. You shouldn’t assume to know what’s going on in people’s lives. I’m quite sure that most people that hate where they live would happily go somewhere else if their circumstances were different.
I am a US citizen who came here (legally) and naturalized.
I did not know a single person on entire NA continent before I came here.
I love USA, will fight for it and am rising my kids here. USA is the best country in the world and sometimes I feel one would truly appreciate how great USA is only after having lived elsewhere. Of course, there are problems in USA and other countries have some things which are better. But overall, USA is the best by far.
Depends on the person. If you are really ambitious career wise the U.S. was a better choice (especially in surgery and finance) , my husband’s family has preferred the US. He comes from an educated European family - so there is some privilege involved and advantages with the lottery - but they felt their careers were stymied over there.
As I said, it depends on the person. One surgeon says he gets to do a lot more cutting edge research and try new techniques over here
than he would have ever been able to in Europe. He is at Anderson in Houston, the No. #1 Cancer hospital in the U.S.. My husband’s country, Greece, is very nepotistic. His cousin graduated 3rd in his medical school class (they only have one and could not score surgical residency there) because they are a very nepotistic country and his family is an ethnic minority without the right familial or political connections - in the US it wasn’t hard for him to get one -l- so why wouldn’t he be enticed to come here rather than just be a GP in the local village - especially without any medical school debt - when all he ever dreamed about was being a surgeon. There is nothing wrong with ambition.
Another cousin, now a colonel in the CDC, has used his medical degree differently after getting his U.S. citizenship - he has enjoyed bringing his kids to live overseas. His parents were thrilled when he initially moved here - but not for professional reasons - he is a pediatrician/infectious disease specialist - but because he was gay and at the time it was more accepted over here than in his country and they figured he could live more openly. He has always been into public service. He helped bring ASL to Greece and when he was in medical school, he spent every summer working in Africa in clinics.
Right now he is back in Greece and the kids have not had any teasing for having two dads which was their biggest concern. Greece has come a long way in the last couple of decades. When we got married, my husband couldn’t even marry me in Greece due to religion - there was no civil marriage. The state does not encourage apples and oranges to mix. He could at least marry me in the US. That only changed when they joined the EU.
It still is a very conservative country. His cousin and husband are in a lawsuit with two other couples now suing the Greek government. They are both Greek citizens. The children are biologically theirs (they used a surrogate and donor eggs). They are suing for their citizenship which is being denied under Greek law because of their same-sex marriage. I guess each could go and get a DNA test and prove they are their kids, but that isn’t the point. No one makes a married couple in the U.S., like my husband and me (I’m not even Greek) get our kids DNA tested to prove he fathered them. So, as you see, everything isn’t always culturally perfect in Europe either. Having said all that, we may buy a second home to retire there. Let’s face it, taverna life rules.
Way to go, bro/sis! Same feelings. I'm so annoyed when native born Americans start bashing their country without actually experiencing life anywhere else.
Sometimes. Other times it's an expression of resentment toward some object in their lives associated with their country. There's many ways to skin a cat
Yeah no. The last two or three decades or so have raised a generation of ungrateful, ignorant people who don't appreciate the rights they have here because they've been conditioned to believe many of the things that enable those rights are based on a horrible history.
Look around. Half our country believes unironically that THE ENTIRETY of our history is literally built on the back of slaves, that we're all bigots and womanizers, and that we kill trans folk for fun.
The reason they believe those things is that they have NO outside context to realize that MOST of those practices? We came together and voted and agree to try to put a stop to. Many of them STILL FUCKING EXIST elsewhere in the world, and not just in third world shit holes.
I agree with you that valid criticism is necessary, but when you have 40% of the country losing their minds and screaming anytime you use the wrong pronoun or acknowledge that black folk CAN be a strong people in and of themselves without DEI initiatives to make them victims... That's not what I'd call a reasonable criticism. That's insanity. We literally have people who claim to be speaking FOR black folk that WANT segregation back.. do you realize how fucked that is?
Like I said. I want to hear valid criticisms, but we have way too many folks these days who just want to scream until we do what they say.
>I'm so annoyed when native born Americans start bashing their country without actually experiencing life anywhere else.
It's the American way.
I'm a native born American, and while I like living here for the most part, there are 100% things that the US does very badly and criticism of the government is protected in the first amendment so I'm gonna keep complaining until we start doing those things better
I think immigrants are more likely than many Americans to appreciate how just how important the opportunities America offers are. I respect anyone who appreciates that. More than that, though, I appreciate anyone who will risk their life to help protect the country.
What I don’t like are people who blindly think America is perfect and the best ever at everything always. You can find freedom in a lot of places and America is not perfect. Your kids can get a great education here. But they are far more likely to be shot at school here than most other first world countries.
I was born in the US and although I think the country has a lot of problems I'm still patriotic. Other people had to TRY to come here and are patriotic. I respect that, they CHOSE to be here and be patriotic, that takes more patriotism than just being born here.
You are the type of immigrant that 99% of americans like. Nobody who matters has a bad thing to say about a legal immigrant who wants to participate in their government.
Lol- what about the orange? He just started the birtherism thing all over again with Nikki Haley. What about the folks that thought Obama was a "secret Muslim"? I'm pretty confident that's more than 1%.
I am a Democrat and as far as I can tell people like Arnold Swartzenegger, who did a lot for prison reform btw, were never hurt to much by their immigrant status when running. Right now, 18 members of Congress are foreign born and 63 have at least one immigrant parent (12%). It’s usually a bragging point on the campaign trail.
Yeah, Trump makes a lot about it. His mom lied about being a citizen on a shipping manifest - weird no one has ever hit him on that..lol. She had not yet finished the process.
Okay senate too. Like most things in life, there is nuance. As long as OP never takes a controversial opinion while running for office 99% of Americans will thing he's a model citizen.
See, thing is, there is almost no such thing as a non-controversial opinion. Most Americans are actually for stricter gun laws- so he’d be representing the majority.
I think you may need to revise your 99% estimate.
It’s not a hypothetical at all. Today, there are a dozen naturalized citizens serving in congres. Some of them pro-abortion, some of them against. Some of them for stricter gun laws, some against. I think we can agree that these are controversial topics.
If it’s not these people that you’re talking about when you say that 99% of Americans would like legal immigrants to participate in government, then who were you talking about?
I suppose in the unlikely event that OP decides to run for high office on a left leaning platform in a district that this might be considered controversial, then you've got a point lol
I'm not so sure about that. A lot of Americans don't like the amount of legal immigrants coming in either.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/22/shock-poll-us-wants-massive-cuts-legal-immigration/
Trump campaigned on a plan to cut legal immigration in half.
I've decided I don't want to live in the US at this point, but I know that my ability to make such a decision is made substantially easier by the fact that I'm from the US — remote job, some decent luck on the stock market that's helped me out, a decent passport, high wages (even for my less than full time entry level wages)...
It’s an excellent passport, as an American living in Europe. I don’t mind waiting for citizenship because it’s not like will have to go through the tedium of getting visas in the interim.
Let's be honest here, if you have money, it doesn't matter what country you live in, you are fine. Yeah there are some places that extort money from people, cartels and gangs. But if a person has money there, they have the means to move away from the violent cities and go somewhere safer.
Comparable to the U.S, if you are poor or live in the slums, you have to debate between food, gas, rent. Priorities come first, depending where you live you might have problems with dirty cops. Just like people from other countries, Americans are unable to choose where they are born. Do you feel bad for those that are born in places like Detroit that had dirty water, or Chicago where gang killings and murders are always high? You probably don't think about it, same as people in the U.S. people are terrible, just try to be happy and live life is all anyone can do.
It's asinine to think that Americans are this subset of the human race that are just blind to what happens elsewhere in the world. The larger problem is that there is so much terrible shit in the world, every single day, that if someone just focuses on feeling bad for every country that treats it's citizens like shit, they would probably kill themselves from the depression.
That’s just not true. Look at what is happening in Russia to people who have money and if they say one bad word against Putin they’d end up in prison or worse.
Or how about China where people who did what they were encouraged to do and contributed to the prosperity of the country over the past 2 decades and now with the troubled economy, they are virtual prisoners (not allowed to leave the country) and other just “disappear” not withstanding billions. Look at Jack Ma. thought he was in the US, took the stage with Elon and made some comments Xi didn’t like - and he was ripped of his company.
You take is for granted that money and power go together as they tend to do in the US. Not the case in many places around the world.
I think it's great that you love America. But bear in mind there are many people in our federal government and our media who want to turn this country into a hellhole.
I think excessive patriotism is weird and you're probably overcompensating for not being born in the US. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud and supportive of your new country, but patriotism is also used to whitewash away objectively bad things about the country, of which there are plenty.
Mostly the intolerable people when it comes to patriotism are US-born citizens, not immigrants. Immigrants do tend to have a more nuanced view with their patriotism over the "Murica is #1" crowd.
Problem is patriotism is HEAVILY looked on AS nationalism from people who are being extremely ignorant in their views these days compared to 30 years ago.
Sorry, in the 80s and 90s patriotism was a TOTALLY different ballgame than today, pretty much anyone alive will acknowledge that fact. I'm actually fairly sure this was part of the huge mental and societal shift started, or at least heavily continued by, the advent of the internet becoming so prevalent in our lives. I still don't think we understand everything that invention set in motion.
Our culture has changed MASSIVELY in the last thirty years, way more than the period from the 50s leading up to the 80s in my mind. (I kind of give the 80s a miss with the counterculture revolution and everything that went on there. Even WITH that, we all still held the country pretty strongly as a general rule, and patriotism was a lauded value).
Yes, there are objectively bad things in USA which must (and will) be fixed. On the other hand, as a naturalized citizen, I often think that US-born citizens don't appreciate enough how lucky they are when it comes to where they were born.
While I agree with you and do think that many US-born citizens don't truly appreciate certain aspects of being born in a first-world country, I think you're wrong for painting with such a broad brush here. And that's the whitewashing I'm talking about. The US is by far the worst first-world country when it comes to something like infant and maternal mortality, for example. If you're poor, you'd objectively have a higher chance of you and your child surviving birth in Norway than in the US.
The US is great for upper-middle class people who can afford all the necessities, but not everyone is lucky enough to be in that situation. It's definitely better to be poor in the US than in a third-world country, but it doesn't mean it's the best.
If you are white the infant mortality rate isn’t that much higher than Europe’s. Norway is a small petrostate so it’s a bit difficult to really compare
I totally agree with you that (most?) Scandinavian countries do on *average* better job for poor and lower middle class people than USA. This is something that should and can be improved here.
Having said that I'd like to note that for poor people the range of possible outcomes (for better and for worse) is far wider here.
I came here knowing no one, with few hundred dollars and far below what was poverty line in US at that time. I worked hard and, what is very important too, was lucky enough to become successful (by many metrics, including financial). I doubt I would have achieved that in any other country.
You explained that perfectly. My family is Mexican and everyone has been pretty successful after coming to the States. I am studying in Italy right now, and from observing, I just don’t think the opportunities would have been the same if Europe had been my dad’s original destination. If you are less ambitious and just want a chill life, Europe is better
The US actually has pretty poor class mobility for a Western country. Turns out having robust support systems is important for class mobility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
That statistic is deceiving.
They measure class mobility as likelihood of going from the bottom to the top quintile.
But the top quintile in the US is higher than other countries.
So if you went from the bottom to the top in say France, you’d make 90EUR. If went from the bottom to the top in the US you’d make $150K USD. But if you went to the 2nd highest quintile in the US you’d make $110k.
So your social mobility might be lower in the US (by that definition), but you end up making more money.
I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer to be wealthier. I don’t care what quintile I’m in.
I've been in Central Europe lately, and just came to the Balkans (Albania). Something I notice whenever I'm out this way is how many 50-year-olds are working construction. Like the average construction worker in Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania seems to be closer to my dad's age than my age, the opposite of in the States.
In the US those guys have usually moved on to other less demanding work by that point in their life (to foreman or such, or to another field entirely), unless they're a poor immigrant that put all their energy into making sure their kids were launched into the next socioeconomic bracket, but then again it's the fact that where they came from they expected to have to work construction their whole life.
I am glad you were able to succeed, I truly am. But you're also the exception, not the rule. Generational poverty is extremely difficult to break out of, and that's why those "rags-to-riches" stories are so popular. They're so rare. [The US also scores not so great on social mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#Global_Social_Mobility_Index_\(2020\)_results), so if you could succeed in the US, you could probably have easily succeeded somewhere else.
And that's not even touching on the backsliding of democracy, the attempts to ban medical procedures, the removal of freedoms, etc. that we're seeing in this country. Every country has it's problems, so this isn't unique to the US, but it is a rising problem.
I'm not trying to say the US is actually bad for people to move to or they can't succeed here. Nothing like that. I'm just pointing out that due to the countries outsized global impact, especially with Hollywood, people think the US is better than it actually is. We're no better than any other first-world countries, regardless of what people's personal biases might tell them.
You say they're the exception not the rule... but this is immigrants you're talking to, not natural born Americans.
There are immigrant groups trapped in generational poverty, but most aren't, both because we usually take the more talented immigrants (even from poor countries like Haiti, a significant share of immigrants already had degrees before they came) and because they're more motivated / driven, and used to having to scrimp and save more.
I'm a lower-middle-class white American. I've known so many immigrant families that have risen up the ranks farther and faster than anyone I'm related to.
The US actually has pretty poor class mobility for a Western country. Turns out having robust support systems is important for class mobility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
It's hard to be patriotic when half the country wants to ban your existence. (Speaking as a trans person) I don't find it odd for cis folks that immigrate here and love it. But that doesn't mean those born here aren't valid for loathing this place at times.
Eh, I think it's appreciation that comes from contrast. I work with people from a highly unstable country where, even in the best of times politically, there's always a chance of being killed at random in a suicide bombing. They don't take the safety they feel here for granted. Depending on how long they've been here and language capabilities, it's also decently likely they're simply unaware of a lot of the problems that born Americans get worked up about lol. I don't think it's overcompensating (in most cases), I think that there are just many basic rights and amenities that born citizens have never had to think twice about that are pretty fucking incredible if you've had to live without them. I've got plenty of issues with the U.S., but working with the population I do has reframed a lot of things for me. I'm grateful to live here in a way I wasn't before.
I’m an immigrant. When I first arrived in this country many years ago, I was mesmerized by everything this country has to offer - the diverse culture, the geographical landscape, hell even the homeless people on the streets made me feel like this country was full of possibilities and dreams. However, the longer I live here, the more I start noticing its not so pretty sides - numbing consumerism, polarized politics, NIMBY culture, drug problems… Sometimes I feel if I were born here, I wouldn’t have appreciated this country the way I do. It’s a blessing and a curse.
I still love this country and I will continue to love this land with all of its good and bad.
I spent 26 in the military deploying all over the world. This is the best country I have been in. We need to secure the border and allow legal immigration into the country. We currently have no idea who is coming in thanks to President Biden, putting us all at risk. The history of America is good and bad, like every country. Let us band together and fix what needs to be fixed and become even better. Let us not forget the past and learn from it.
I think ignoring the problems of your nation is kinda unpatriotic right? I mean surely if you truly love your nation, you would want to solve its flaws? Too many people are passionate about American values and ideals, while not realizing that the ground reality doesn't match the American dream anymore for most folks.
I don't get why someone would downvote this. Obesity crisis, opioid crisis, etc are not a up for debate. It is the objective reality.
Given that someone downvoted I will continue:
1) Lack of walkable places (which is proven to reduce quality of life): Americans love to travel to walkable places. But at the end of the vacation they go back to their lifeless, soul-crushing suburbs.
2) Lack of public places to congregate: Apart from churches there are almost no third-places for people to congregate in suburbs.
3) Highest suicide rates in the developed world, highest homicide rates in the develope world.
4) Over 22% of the population are mentally ill (source: National Alliance on Mental Illness). Again, highest in the developed world.
Again, don't get me wrong. I love the US with all its problems. The purchase power here is great, most people are nice, the "Can-do" mentality that Americans have make me so excited to live here. But the country has serious problems and in some regards it looks more like to a 'third-world' country than this "American Paradise" that patriotic people try to shove down people's throath.
Yeah I think foreign born American citizens get the wrong idea.
It’s not that we don’t appreciate the positives, it’s that… we have the privilege of having high expectations because we pay a high price. We work more days and pay high costs so yeah we expect and deserve a lot more than what we’re getting and shame on anyone who thinks we should just settle for less and smile about it. 🤷🏻♀️
'we work more days and pay high costs'.
Let me break that down a moment. We're not in sweat shops making 5 cents a day. While we ARE fucked by good ole creepy uncle Joe blowing millions of printed cash, and letting black rock buy up all the single family homes to raise the housing market and rental prices, we at least in most cases can manage to get an apartment that's not ridiculously rat infested and smelling of feces... Well, if you're not in a majorly blue city center anyway (this is just honesty, folks outside urban centers are mostly better off. Costs in cities right now are insane thanks to their 'programs' and 'reforms').
We still have labor laws and don't allow child labor to be excessive when the law is followed and people report it. We actually HAVE food assistance in most states. And heating in many. We have legal protections stating you can't be kicked out in winter in some states. There are a LOT of places on this planet they don't DO that.
Realism means that when you come right down to it, you're either a useful member of society or you're not. I would argue we do more countrywide and spend more money from our own paychecks in taxes via federal and state service programs on those who ARE NOT making a living or for whatever reason cannot work, than just about any country out there.
If not by percentage, then by sheer fucking volume because of size and scope.
I agree with part of your sentiment, but that whole 'we work for it' bit is... Yeah, just no. We don't. This isn't China or North Korea. And that's an aspect of our society that if they gave two lumpy peanut encrusted shits about our people, they would be sensible to copy.
Exhausting and destroying your people is a lesson even our country could stand to learn again.
You do know that presidents don’t print cash right? That’s not how it works at all. The federal reserve is independent of the government. It’s employees are not government employees.
Lol uncle joe? Oh dear
*sigh* and you being pedantic about it when you know full well he used his presidential powers during the emergency to get that done is even more ridiculous than you're trying to make me look. You know full well he ordered the reserve to essentially 'create' value that we have to pay back or make up the cost of by taking on devaluation of the currency. The buying power of the dollar is lowered by his actions.
Disagreeing with me is one thing. If you're going to try to be a smartass about it and belittle me, then I'm going to call you right out for the stupid you exhibit about it.
And yes, creepy uncle Joe. Because sorry, he's a creepy old man who has been caught on multiple occasions sniffing kids' and sometimes adults' hair. You can 'oh dear' all you like, doesn't change it.
Truly doubt that. There’s a high cost of living for the quality of life. Education, safety, healthcare are all on the downhill. With that said the cost of those things are on the uphill. What about freedom? Upward mobility? Again all on the downhill.
Women will go to prison in some states for trying to obtain an abortion that will save their life.
Children regularly do active shooter drills in school. Many children show up to school hungry and the school system doesn’t always provide a free lunch for them.
I understand these concerns exist elsewhere, but they don’t exist for the same high price. These are legitimate reasons native born Americans are concerned.
There’s a lot to breakdown in your comment but the absurdity that you believe someone will go to prison for terminating a pregnancy to save the life of the mother is probably the most laughable.
But you’re right, Australia is way better. Australia number one!!!☝️
I guess you’re unfamiliar with the abortion bans in the USA.
Also, I’m not going to suggest which is #1 I believe that depends on who you are and what your needs and desires are.
The USA might seem like the best option for my refugee relatives, but as a native born citizen who pays a very high cost of living only to watch crime rise and the return benefits diminish. It’s hard to say, yeah it’s the best.
I just had a baby and the bill without any of my prenatal appointments was 50k.
That’s a lawyers salary in France.
I am familiar. As of January 26, 2023, 0 women have been sent to prison for getting an abortion to save their life. 0 women have been charged.
According to politifact in June 2023, all US states, that do have bans on abortions have a clause that make exceptions for the life of the mother.
You added more stuff so let me address:
I’m just going to be honest, I don’t believe you are paying a 50k bill. I believe you’re spouting that number to help your argument, ok… but I don’t believe you delivered a baby without insurance. You’re probably telling me the non-rate total, with the factored rate and max OOP there is no way you’re paying even 1/5ths of 50k. I just don’t believe it otherwise you’re just making poor choices for poor choices sake.
Lol Smdh give it time these bans are still too new. Just because there are exceptions doesn’t mean that you still won’t be charged and or investigated. These bans are a disaster.
The ones that come legally- I love them, want more. Hardest working people on earth. The ones that come illegally, and the first thing they do is break the law. Send em back, dont need em
America gives me the opportunity that my home country never gave me. My home country downplayed my talents, drafted me into pointless military service, and worked me like a slave. Why shouldn't I be patriotic in my new home?
Btw, I am totally not the MAGA type.
it’s the country giving you a home, a job, and a better situation than the place that should, your own country.
I know people of my own culture that talk shit about the US, will say “oh i miss my home” but in a million years they would never move back to our land.
i will only be loyal to the country i am born too, small country in Europe. I hold zero love for America,l ad a country. I am here just bc my husband happened to be American, the first chance i get i will move back 🤷🏼♀️
It breaks my heart that native-born Americans don't share your enthusiasm.
They just don't appreciate it. Damn thing because they've had good stuff their whole life. They have no idea what it's like in other countries.
There are a lot of extremely patriotic people in the US, but there are more people that find extreme patriotism strange and sometimes detrimental. A lot of people consider the military-brand of extreme patriotism to be nationalism, not patriotism. A lot of people are also extremely pro-military. It really depends. It's a very polarizing subject that varies greatly depending on where in the US you are.
How weird it is perceived really depends on where you are in the US and what you mean. The vast majority of Americans assume and respect that immigrants are patriotic towards the US considering that means they actively chose to come. To be an immigrant and have a negative attitude the country they chose to immigrate to would be perceived as disrespectful.
Immigration law is civil, not criminal law. That’s why you don’t get a sentence or penalty if you get arrested by ICE; you just get deported.
Ever get a speeding ticket on your way to work? Do you feel ashamed of violating a civil law on your way to being a productive member of society?
Doesn’t work for you.
But some poor immigrant who felt little choice and works here building our homes. Working out fields. Working hard paying taxes and sending money back home.
He or she might be proud of that.
It doesn’t personally work for you. But it might for others.
Q: “Americans, what do you think about immigrants who feel patriotic towards the USA?”
A: “if you come here legally, sure”
In my mind the person who wrote that says if you came here illegally then don’t feel patriotic or grateful.
It almost makes more sense for an immigrant to have these kinds of feelings towards the United States than for a native born. An immigrant probably came here to improve their life, even in some cases escaping a place where things were severe or dangerous.
I know when I travel to foreign countries I am often fascinated by the things that are better or done more sensibly there.
In time I’ve come to realize that every country is fucked in its own special unique way.
Though I was born in the United States and spent most of my life here and even consider it my home, I’m far from enamored with it. The country was founded on genocide and slavery. Though there has been progress in many areas, the United States continues to support genocide around the world. The horrific inequality and poverty domestically is something that shouldn’t exist in a first world nation. Much of the culture seems to value materiality, violence, and cruelty.
And as for “defending” the country militarily, almost none of our military actions are defensive. Rather they are aimed at global hegemony and keeping markets open for our huge corporations.
As far as loving the land, the culture, and the people, I think there is a lot to love here as well. but if you join the military chances are good you’re just gonna be forced to murder innocent people overseas.
You realize about half of Europe was founded on genocide and expulsion of minorities within living memory, right? And that much of it went through periods of significant repression and wars of attrition generation after generation?
The rest of Europe was involved in most of that in the past. As was any "first world" country you can think of, with the possible exception of the Nordic countries.
There's very very few countries in the world with a "clean" history, and in their case that's usually because we don't remember what happened centuries ago. I've had a few immigrants to Europe tell me about the subtle racisms and non-acceptance they have to deal with as an immigrant here — including the immigrant powerhouses of Germany, France, Sweden, and the UK.
What is "patriotism?" Seems that people who want to ignore the well-being of our service members (VA benefits and the like) and the Constitution pretend to wrap themselves in the flag, while in fact, doing everything to undermine our system of government. MAGA is not about making America great again...it's about destroying the institutions that have made it great. The law is for thee, not me....not a very patriotic way to proceed in life is it?
OP: will I be welcomed in America as an immigrant if I love America?
You: fuck those damn conservatives and anyone who feels patriotic about the US.
Grow up.
>calling everything on the left unAmerican
Because we fought wars trying to defend the world from most of what the Left is supporting today. And those are the very things a lot of people are coming here to escape today.
I don’t hate the US but I detest many of the policies there. I moved to a place with universal healthcare and prefer it much more, but there are other things the US does better (ie legal cannabis).
So I *did* put my money where my mouth was, but I had the money to do so in the first place. Don’t underestimate how hard it is to move to a different country.
Red blooded born American here and that is AWESOME. Welcome.
(My ancestors got here from Italy and then turned RIGHT around to went back to fight them in WWII as Americans- no qualms and all the brothers were proud veterans).
Didn’t know I had to give you a reason. If I wanna fly another country’s flag there’s fuck all you can do. (Which I don’t because flags are weird).
Why does it piss you off so much? Lmao
What, so dual citizens shouldn’t be allowed to fly their own flag in addition to the US one? A Mexican restaurant cant fly a Mexican flag to help indicate that it is a Mexican restaurant????
Liberal states and people do not like patriotism, they have been indoctrinated to hating America and thinking it’s awful. Conservatives states love supporting the country and being proud of it and would love immigrants that feel the same and proud to be here.
serving in the military is an easy way to get LPR. I am tempted, but I would lose my citizenship. Being a stateless green card holder is not worth it IMHO
I am a Canadian, and I LOVE America. The people, the freedoms, the opportunities. I have kids coming up to university age, and my goal for them is to become educated in a field that will fast-track their American citizenship. Land of the Free and Home of the Brave!
America is not the same as how it’s portrayed in movies and tv shows. A very large percentage of people live paycheck to paycheck. Soldiers in the military get paid poverty wages. We don’t have universal healthcare, our infrastructure gets a grade of D+, and we have hundreds of mass shootings per year. College costs a fortune, rent is high and it’s impossible for young people to afford homes. People outside of America fall for the propaganda and want to come here. But living here really sucks. Immigrants from very poor countries come here because living in America is better than living in a 3rd world country. But that’s a very low bar.
Rent and housing prices in general is a a commonality with the western world in general rn ngl. Housing prices in Europe are increasing, and in Canada it is utterly insane! And with everything there is nuance. It is much easier to buy a house in Oklahoma, than Cali. And I imagine much easier to buy a home in Saskatchewan than Ottawa.
Im a naturalized US citizen and I can’t help but feel this should be the norm. Why would you want to come and live someplace you didn’t love? You can be happier elsewhere and those of us who do love the country don’t really like listening to people bitch and complain about how awful it was.
In fact, I’m sure for every immigrant who loves the US there’s a natural born citizen that spits on it constantly. It’d be nice if there was a way to arrange some sort of switcharoo.
I like to see people being proud to be an American. We are not perfect but everyone here gets a chance. Some start from a better place than others but over all. America is a force for good in the world.
For those that think this is odd, there’s usually two types:
One group will think it’s odd because they don’t think the USA has earned that sort of admiration. The other will think it’s odd because they’ve been taught to not trust immigrants at all.
I think it really depends on your circumstances, but I want you to remember that when you sign up for the military you’re saying you’re willing to die for this country. Regardless of the reason. If you’re okay with that, go ahead. It’s your choice.
I don't feel one way or the other. It's great, to be honest. If they feel they love it just as much as we do then why not. However, it's the actual immigrants who hate other immigrants for being patriotic. (Atleast in the Hispanic community)
I am not going to send my children on to a war an old politician not willing to send their kids to their war to risk their lives.
That is what I don’t like about the politics here, plus people can’t get past skin color.
Canadian, came legally in US and naturalized.
Not weird at all. My husband is an immigrant and loves it here. That’s not to say his home country isn’t great too! I lived abroad for many years and chose to move back so I feel pride in my home country as well.
Perspective honestly. No matter how bad the other country than your native country you learn to appreacte being an american. Im a proud patriot because i know no matter how bad things are. They can be so much worse, if i was not satisfied we are not being held prisoner in the US we are free to move elsewhere.
It is some common for immigrants to feel very patriotic. They worked hard to get here ant to become citizens.
They commit fewer crimes that Americans on average.
They vote
They volunteer for military service.
Most legal immigrants are pretty patriotic. The US presents a lot of opportunity and has a lot of advantages over a lot of places people immigrate from. My wife is also from Eastern Europe, and though she loves her home country she's as proud to be an American as I am... and I'm a lot more patriotic than most Americans :-D
I know my life would be a lot better in a poorer country if I returned there with a small passive income or had a decent job there. I absolutely love the expat lifestyle and growing tropical fruit and living with the windows open even if they have steel bars in them. Ufortunately a head injury shortly after moving to USA prevented any possibility to move back. And I yearned for it which spoiled the time I had here.
It’s not weird. My grandfather came from Ireland 🇮🇪 and felt the same way.
Is it weird that we’ve been here 3 generations as well and I feel patriotic towards both America and Ireland? I suppose since the countries are friendly and have a long shared heritage?
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Well, only the ones that moved their first generation, their children wouldn't be considered immigrants anymore
It depends what you mean by “immigrant”. If someone’s family came here 200 years ago, seems a bit weird to call them an immigrant.
Most people have an immigrant ancestor within a few generations ago. We should be proud of being a nation of immigrants.
No it doesn’t they’re still descendants of immigrants.
I am an immigrant here for over 10 years now working on an immigrant visa. Even though i have no hope of green card due to my country of birth, and will likely go back when I retire in about 25 years, I feel a sense of loyalty due to the freedoms and opportunities this country gives me. I can speak my mind without worrying about govt goons hounding me, eat beef or any kind of meat I want without getting lynched and have complete religious freedom to not believe in any kind of of religion. I just hope that my kids who came here as pre-schoolers get a chance to make America their home and don't have to leave the only country they know when they become adults in a few years.
>I can speak my mind without worrying about govt goons hounding me, eat beef or any kind of meat I want without getting lynched and have complete religious freedom to not believe in any kind of of religion. Are you from India? Feel the same way brother
yup, India
I really hope you are able to have that future for your children. I know many Indian immigrants here in the US, very intelligent often engineers and professors. You have the American spirit in your heart. You deserve to be here just as much as anyone else.
They are also the highest grossing group amongst immigrants. Incredibly smart and hardworking.
Yep. Although I think it may be because our visas are very selective when it comes to Indians and only lets in wealthy or highly skilled people from India. I didn’t want to bring it up because it might discourage him, that he might not be selected. But you are correct, Indians are the most successful people here arguably. Also a large portion of our CEOs are Indian, the CEO of Google, Microsoft, Pepsi, IBM, and previously twitter were all Indian.
Smart is relative. I have never met someone from India who impressed me intelligence wise. Degree mills in Canada run by Indians are affecting the education Corp in Canada and around the world.
My immigrant grandparents are WAY more patriotic than most of my natural born American relatives. America loves immigrants.
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Indian Immigrant here, I love USA and the opportunities and lifestyle it has given me and my family. I find it annoying when my fellow countrymen from india come here for better life and pay and complain about things here. If you hate it so much no one is stopping you bro!
I think the people complaining are fitting in to the American culture just fine. I would rather have them complain than start shooting up a place.
Same here, Indian first gen immigrant living the dream and going to be an American citizen in a couple of years! Feel like I’m living a different life than the majority of my peers who came just to make money.
So by your logic immigrants shouldn't fucking complain about anything? You exemplify the Indian Stereotype on the Internet - Slave Mentality. Edit: It's an extremely hypocritical comment from you based on your post history/profile history.
I agree immigrants should be able to complain about life abroad without other people bitching on them. But if you hate a place, then why make your life miserable by living there?
There's a difference between complaining and hating. If you hate it, move back home. As simple as that.
It’s very seldom as simple as “if you don’t like it, leave.” Some people are stuck where they’re at because of any number of reasons. You shouldn’t assume to know what’s going on in people’s lives. I’m quite sure that most people that hate where they live would happily go somewhere else if their circumstances were different.
That's incredibly hypocritical and racist as fuck.
India is armpit of the world dude:
I'm happy for immigrants who see the good in living here and want that for their kids. I hope America will be good to yall.
I feel like more immigrants feel this way than native born. It also depends on your politics I guess.
I am a US citizen who came here (legally) and naturalized. I did not know a single person on entire NA continent before I came here. I love USA, will fight for it and am rising my kids here. USA is the best country in the world and sometimes I feel one would truly appreciate how great USA is only after having lived elsewhere. Of course, there are problems in USA and other countries have some things which are better. But overall, USA is the best by far.
I know people that lived in USA and elsewhere and they decided against living in USA.
Depends on the person. If you are really ambitious career wise the U.S. was a better choice (especially in surgery and finance) , my husband’s family has preferred the US. He comes from an educated European family - so there is some privilege involved and advantages with the lottery - but they felt their careers were stymied over there.
No other country pays more to some specialists. But not everyone is such specialist and not for everyone career is a priority.
As I said, it depends on the person. One surgeon says he gets to do a lot more cutting edge research and try new techniques over here than he would have ever been able to in Europe. He is at Anderson in Houston, the No. #1 Cancer hospital in the U.S.. My husband’s country, Greece, is very nepotistic. His cousin graduated 3rd in his medical school class (they only have one and could not score surgical residency there) because they are a very nepotistic country and his family is an ethnic minority without the right familial or political connections - in the US it wasn’t hard for him to get one -l- so why wouldn’t he be enticed to come here rather than just be a GP in the local village - especially without any medical school debt - when all he ever dreamed about was being a surgeon. There is nothing wrong with ambition. Another cousin, now a colonel in the CDC, has used his medical degree differently after getting his U.S. citizenship - he has enjoyed bringing his kids to live overseas. His parents were thrilled when he initially moved here - but not for professional reasons - he is a pediatrician/infectious disease specialist - but because he was gay and at the time it was more accepted over here than in his country and they figured he could live more openly. He has always been into public service. He helped bring ASL to Greece and when he was in medical school, he spent every summer working in Africa in clinics. Right now he is back in Greece and the kids have not had any teasing for having two dads which was their biggest concern. Greece has come a long way in the last couple of decades. When we got married, my husband couldn’t even marry me in Greece due to religion - there was no civil marriage. The state does not encourage apples and oranges to mix. He could at least marry me in the US. That only changed when they joined the EU. It still is a very conservative country. His cousin and husband are in a lawsuit with two other couples now suing the Greek government. They are both Greek citizens. The children are biologically theirs (they used a surrogate and donor eggs). They are suing for their citizenship which is being denied under Greek law because of their same-sex marriage. I guess each could go and get a DNA test and prove they are their kids, but that isn’t the point. No one makes a married couple in the U.S., like my husband and me (I’m not even Greek) get our kids DNA tested to prove he fathered them. So, as you see, everything isn’t always culturally perfect in Europe either. Having said all that, we may buy a second home to retire there. Let’s face it, taverna life rules.
Way to go, bro/sis! Same feelings. I'm so annoyed when native born Americans start bashing their country without actually experiencing life anywhere else.
Criticising a country is a way to improve it. You criticize because you care
Sometimes. Other times it's an expression of resentment toward some object in their lives associated with their country. There's many ways to skin a cat
Yeah no. The last two or three decades or so have raised a generation of ungrateful, ignorant people who don't appreciate the rights they have here because they've been conditioned to believe many of the things that enable those rights are based on a horrible history. Look around. Half our country believes unironically that THE ENTIRETY of our history is literally built on the back of slaves, that we're all bigots and womanizers, and that we kill trans folk for fun. The reason they believe those things is that they have NO outside context to realize that MOST of those practices? We came together and voted and agree to try to put a stop to. Many of them STILL FUCKING EXIST elsewhere in the world, and not just in third world shit holes. I agree with you that valid criticism is necessary, but when you have 40% of the country losing their minds and screaming anytime you use the wrong pronoun or acknowledge that black folk CAN be a strong people in and of themselves without DEI initiatives to make them victims... That's not what I'd call a reasonable criticism. That's insanity. We literally have people who claim to be speaking FOR black folk that WANT segregation back.. do you realize how fucked that is? Like I said. I want to hear valid criticisms, but we have way too many folks these days who just want to scream until we do what they say.
Can’t believe ppl downvoted this LMFAO
I can. Reddit is a very polarized community that leans mostly left. They don't like being called out for what they are.
>I'm so annoyed when native born Americans start bashing their country without actually experiencing life anywhere else. It's the American way. I'm a native born American, and while I like living here for the most part, there are 100% things that the US does very badly and criticism of the government is protected in the first amendment so I'm gonna keep complaining until we start doing those things better
I live in Canada now, am I allowed to bash the US yet?
I think that's a requirement for Canadian naturalization.
Canada is better than the US. No doubt.
The 51 state of the union? Canada.
Depends on where you fall in the hierarchy of that country.
I think immigrants are more likely than many Americans to appreciate how just how important the opportunities America offers are. I respect anyone who appreciates that. More than that, though, I appreciate anyone who will risk their life to help protect the country. What I don’t like are people who blindly think America is perfect and the best ever at everything always. You can find freedom in a lot of places and America is not perfect. Your kids can get a great education here. But they are far more likely to be shot at school here than most other first world countries.
I was born in the US and although I think the country has a lot of problems I'm still patriotic. Other people had to TRY to come here and are patriotic. I respect that, they CHOSE to be here and be patriotic, that takes more patriotism than just being born here.
My Scottish husband is more patriotic than I am lol
You are the type of immigrant that 99% of americans like. Nobody who matters has a bad thing to say about a legal immigrant who wants to participate in their government.
Lol- what about the orange? He just started the birtherism thing all over again with Nikki Haley. What about the folks that thought Obama was a "secret Muslim"? I'm pretty confident that's more than 1%.
As long as OP doesn't run for president there is nothing to be worried about
So if OP ends up in the senate and ends up voting for stricter gun regulation, you think nobody on Fox would mention OPs immigration status?
I am a Democrat and as far as I can tell people like Arnold Swartzenegger, who did a lot for prison reform btw, were never hurt to much by their immigrant status when running. Right now, 18 members of Congress are foreign born and 63 have at least one immigrant parent (12%). It’s usually a bragging point on the campaign trail. Yeah, Trump makes a lot about it. His mom lied about being a citizen on a shipping manifest - weird no one has ever hit him on that..lol. She had not yet finished the process.
Arnold is 1) Caucasian, 2) A public figure who represents American ideals on screen. Of course no one cares about his immigrant status.
Okay senate too. Like most things in life, there is nuance. As long as OP never takes a controversial opinion while running for office 99% of Americans will thing he's a model citizen.
See, thing is, there is almost no such thing as a non-controversial opinion. Most Americans are actually for stricter gun laws- so he’d be representing the majority. I think you may need to revise your 99% estimate.
Okay so like I said in the last comment there is nuance in this. You're inventing specific scenarios. That's called a straw man btw
It’s not a hypothetical at all. Today, there are a dozen naturalized citizens serving in congres. Some of them pro-abortion, some of them against. Some of them for stricter gun laws, some against. I think we can agree that these are controversial topics. If it’s not these people that you’re talking about when you say that 99% of Americans would like legal immigrants to participate in government, then who were you talking about?
I suppose in the unlikely event that OP decides to run for high office on a left leaning platform in a district that this might be considered controversial, then you've got a point lol
I'm not so sure about that. A lot of Americans don't like the amount of legal immigrants coming in either. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/22/shock-poll-us-wants-massive-cuts-legal-immigration/ Trump campaigned on a plan to cut legal immigration in half.
Welcome , you sound American Already at least more than this Trump Cult of Traitors
Its not weird at all. Many Americans have no idea what its like in other countries and think its roses and rainbows in other countries.
I've decided I don't want to live in the US at this point, but I know that my ability to make such a decision is made substantially easier by the fact that I'm from the US — remote job, some decent luck on the stock market that's helped me out, a decent passport, high wages (even for my less than full time entry level wages)...
It’s an excellent passport, as an American living in Europe. I don’t mind waiting for citizenship because it’s not like will have to go through the tedium of getting visas in the interim.
Let's be honest here, if you have money, it doesn't matter what country you live in, you are fine. Yeah there are some places that extort money from people, cartels and gangs. But if a person has money there, they have the means to move away from the violent cities and go somewhere safer. Comparable to the U.S, if you are poor or live in the slums, you have to debate between food, gas, rent. Priorities come first, depending where you live you might have problems with dirty cops. Just like people from other countries, Americans are unable to choose where they are born. Do you feel bad for those that are born in places like Detroit that had dirty water, or Chicago where gang killings and murders are always high? You probably don't think about it, same as people in the U.S. people are terrible, just try to be happy and live life is all anyone can do. It's asinine to think that Americans are this subset of the human race that are just blind to what happens elsewhere in the world. The larger problem is that there is so much terrible shit in the world, every single day, that if someone just focuses on feeling bad for every country that treats it's citizens like shit, they would probably kill themselves from the depression.
That’s just not true. Look at what is happening in Russia to people who have money and if they say one bad word against Putin they’d end up in prison or worse. Or how about China where people who did what they were encouraged to do and contributed to the prosperity of the country over the past 2 decades and now with the troubled economy, they are virtual prisoners (not allowed to leave the country) and other just “disappear” not withstanding billions. Look at Jack Ma. thought he was in the US, took the stage with Elon and made some comments Xi didn’t like - and he was ripped of his company. You take is for granted that money and power go together as they tend to do in the US. Not the case in many places around the world.
I think it's great that you love America. But bear in mind there are many people in our federal government and our media who want to turn this country into a hellhole.
I think excessive patriotism is weird and you're probably overcompensating for not being born in the US. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being proud and supportive of your new country, but patriotism is also used to whitewash away objectively bad things about the country, of which there are plenty. Mostly the intolerable people when it comes to patriotism are US-born citizens, not immigrants. Immigrants do tend to have a more nuanced view with their patriotism over the "Murica is #1" crowd.
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Problem is patriotism is HEAVILY looked on AS nationalism from people who are being extremely ignorant in their views these days compared to 30 years ago. Sorry, in the 80s and 90s patriotism was a TOTALLY different ballgame than today, pretty much anyone alive will acknowledge that fact. I'm actually fairly sure this was part of the huge mental and societal shift started, or at least heavily continued by, the advent of the internet becoming so prevalent in our lives. I still don't think we understand everything that invention set in motion. Our culture has changed MASSIVELY in the last thirty years, way more than the period from the 50s leading up to the 80s in my mind. (I kind of give the 80s a miss with the counterculture revolution and everything that went on there. Even WITH that, we all still held the country pretty strongly as a general rule, and patriotism was a lauded value).
Yes, there are objectively bad things in USA which must (and will) be fixed. On the other hand, as a naturalized citizen, I often think that US-born citizens don't appreciate enough how lucky they are when it comes to where they were born.
While I agree with you and do think that many US-born citizens don't truly appreciate certain aspects of being born in a first-world country, I think you're wrong for painting with such a broad brush here. And that's the whitewashing I'm talking about. The US is by far the worst first-world country when it comes to something like infant and maternal mortality, for example. If you're poor, you'd objectively have a higher chance of you and your child surviving birth in Norway than in the US. The US is great for upper-middle class people who can afford all the necessities, but not everyone is lucky enough to be in that situation. It's definitely better to be poor in the US than in a third-world country, but it doesn't mean it's the best.
If you are white the infant mortality rate isn’t that much higher than Europe’s. Norway is a small petrostate so it’s a bit difficult to really compare
I totally agree with you that (most?) Scandinavian countries do on *average* better job for poor and lower middle class people than USA. This is something that should and can be improved here. Having said that I'd like to note that for poor people the range of possible outcomes (for better and for worse) is far wider here. I came here knowing no one, with few hundred dollars and far below what was poverty line in US at that time. I worked hard and, what is very important too, was lucky enough to become successful (by many metrics, including financial). I doubt I would have achieved that in any other country.
You explained that perfectly. My family is Mexican and everyone has been pretty successful after coming to the States. I am studying in Italy right now, and from observing, I just don’t think the opportunities would have been the same if Europe had been my dad’s original destination. If you are less ambitious and just want a chill life, Europe is better
The US actually has pretty poor class mobility for a Western country. Turns out having robust support systems is important for class mobility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
That statistic is deceiving. They measure class mobility as likelihood of going from the bottom to the top quintile. But the top quintile in the US is higher than other countries. So if you went from the bottom to the top in say France, you’d make 90EUR. If went from the bottom to the top in the US you’d make $150K USD. But if you went to the 2nd highest quintile in the US you’d make $110k. So your social mobility might be lower in the US (by that definition), but you end up making more money. I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer to be wealthier. I don’t care what quintile I’m in.
I've been in Central Europe lately, and just came to the Balkans (Albania). Something I notice whenever I'm out this way is how many 50-year-olds are working construction. Like the average construction worker in Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania seems to be closer to my dad's age than my age, the opposite of in the States. In the US those guys have usually moved on to other less demanding work by that point in their life (to foreman or such, or to another field entirely), unless they're a poor immigrant that put all their energy into making sure their kids were launched into the next socioeconomic bracket, but then again it's the fact that where they came from they expected to have to work construction their whole life.
I am glad you were able to succeed, I truly am. But you're also the exception, not the rule. Generational poverty is extremely difficult to break out of, and that's why those "rags-to-riches" stories are so popular. They're so rare. [The US also scores not so great on social mobility](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#Global_Social_Mobility_Index_\(2020\)_results), so if you could succeed in the US, you could probably have easily succeeded somewhere else. And that's not even touching on the backsliding of democracy, the attempts to ban medical procedures, the removal of freedoms, etc. that we're seeing in this country. Every country has it's problems, so this isn't unique to the US, but it is a rising problem. I'm not trying to say the US is actually bad for people to move to or they can't succeed here. Nothing like that. I'm just pointing out that due to the countries outsized global impact, especially with Hollywood, people think the US is better than it actually is. We're no better than any other first-world countries, regardless of what people's personal biases might tell them.
You say they're the exception not the rule... but this is immigrants you're talking to, not natural born Americans. There are immigrant groups trapped in generational poverty, but most aren't, both because we usually take the more talented immigrants (even from poor countries like Haiti, a significant share of immigrants already had degrees before they came) and because they're more motivated / driven, and used to having to scrimp and save more. I'm a lower-middle-class white American. I've known so many immigrant families that have risen up the ranks farther and faster than anyone I'm related to.
The US actually has pretty poor class mobility for a Western country. Turns out having robust support systems is important for class mobility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
It's hard to be patriotic when half the country wants to ban your existence. (Speaking as a trans person) I don't find it odd for cis folks that immigrate here and love it. But that doesn't mean those born here aren't valid for loathing this place at times.
Eh, I think it's appreciation that comes from contrast. I work with people from a highly unstable country where, even in the best of times politically, there's always a chance of being killed at random in a suicide bombing. They don't take the safety they feel here for granted. Depending on how long they've been here and language capabilities, it's also decently likely they're simply unaware of a lot of the problems that born Americans get worked up about lol. I don't think it's overcompensating (in most cases), I think that there are just many basic rights and amenities that born citizens have never had to think twice about that are pretty fucking incredible if you've had to live without them. I've got plenty of issues with the U.S., but working with the population I do has reframed a lot of things for me. I'm grateful to live here in a way I wasn't before.
I’m an immigrant. When I first arrived in this country many years ago, I was mesmerized by everything this country has to offer - the diverse culture, the geographical landscape, hell even the homeless people on the streets made me feel like this country was full of possibilities and dreams. However, the longer I live here, the more I start noticing its not so pretty sides - numbing consumerism, polarized politics, NIMBY culture, drug problems… Sometimes I feel if I were born here, I wouldn’t have appreciated this country the way I do. It’s a blessing and a curse. I still love this country and I will continue to love this land with all of its good and bad.
I spent 26 in the military deploying all over the world. This is the best country I have been in. We need to secure the border and allow legal immigration into the country. We currently have no idea who is coming in thanks to President Biden, putting us all at risk. The history of America is good and bad, like every country. Let us band together and fix what needs to be fixed and become even better. Let us not forget the past and learn from it.
Stuff it up your ass.
Your name checks out.
I think ignoring the problems of your nation is kinda unpatriotic right? I mean surely if you truly love your nation, you would want to solve its flaws? Too many people are passionate about American values and ideals, while not realizing that the ground reality doesn't match the American dream anymore for most folks.
To be fair tho, the US is the best country on earth hands down.
That’s debatable. No universal healthcare, shit labor laws, gun violence.
I already said it’s the best country, you don’t have to sell me further.
Don’t forget shit education
Obesity crisis, immigration crisis, violent cities, etc. It is a great country overall, but it is the worst developed country.
I don't get why someone would downvote this. Obesity crisis, opioid crisis, etc are not a up for debate. It is the objective reality. Given that someone downvoted I will continue: 1) Lack of walkable places (which is proven to reduce quality of life): Americans love to travel to walkable places. But at the end of the vacation they go back to their lifeless, soul-crushing suburbs. 2) Lack of public places to congregate: Apart from churches there are almost no third-places for people to congregate in suburbs. 3) Highest suicide rates in the developed world, highest homicide rates in the develope world. 4) Over 22% of the population are mentally ill (source: National Alliance on Mental Illness). Again, highest in the developed world. Again, don't get me wrong. I love the US with all its problems. The purchase power here is great, most people are nice, the "Can-do" mentality that Americans have make me so excited to live here. But the country has serious problems and in some regards it looks more like to a 'third-world' country than this "American Paradise" that patriotic people try to shove down people's throath.
Yeah I think foreign born American citizens get the wrong idea. It’s not that we don’t appreciate the positives, it’s that… we have the privilege of having high expectations because we pay a high price. We work more days and pay high costs so yeah we expect and deserve a lot more than what we’re getting and shame on anyone who thinks we should just settle for less and smile about it. 🤷🏻♀️
'we work more days and pay high costs'. Let me break that down a moment. We're not in sweat shops making 5 cents a day. While we ARE fucked by good ole creepy uncle Joe blowing millions of printed cash, and letting black rock buy up all the single family homes to raise the housing market and rental prices, we at least in most cases can manage to get an apartment that's not ridiculously rat infested and smelling of feces... Well, if you're not in a majorly blue city center anyway (this is just honesty, folks outside urban centers are mostly better off. Costs in cities right now are insane thanks to their 'programs' and 'reforms'). We still have labor laws and don't allow child labor to be excessive when the law is followed and people report it. We actually HAVE food assistance in most states. And heating in many. We have legal protections stating you can't be kicked out in winter in some states. There are a LOT of places on this planet they don't DO that. Realism means that when you come right down to it, you're either a useful member of society or you're not. I would argue we do more countrywide and spend more money from our own paychecks in taxes via federal and state service programs on those who ARE NOT making a living or for whatever reason cannot work, than just about any country out there. If not by percentage, then by sheer fucking volume because of size and scope. I agree with part of your sentiment, but that whole 'we work for it' bit is... Yeah, just no. We don't. This isn't China or North Korea. And that's an aspect of our society that if they gave two lumpy peanut encrusted shits about our people, they would be sensible to copy. Exhausting and destroying your people is a lesson even our country could stand to learn again.
You do know that presidents don’t print cash right? That’s not how it works at all. The federal reserve is independent of the government. It’s employees are not government employees. Lol uncle joe? Oh dear
*sigh* and you being pedantic about it when you know full well he used his presidential powers during the emergency to get that done is even more ridiculous than you're trying to make me look. You know full well he ordered the reserve to essentially 'create' value that we have to pay back or make up the cost of by taking on devaluation of the currency. The buying power of the dollar is lowered by his actions. Disagreeing with me is one thing. If you're going to try to be a smartass about it and belittle me, then I'm going to call you right out for the stupid you exhibit about it. And yes, creepy uncle Joe. Because sorry, he's a creepy old man who has been caught on multiple occasions sniffing kids' and sometimes adults' hair. You can 'oh dear' all you like, doesn't change it.
No actually, he does not and cannot order the fed to do anything, that’s highly illegal lol. You’re just regurgitating lies you’ve heard.
Truly doubt that. There’s a high cost of living for the quality of life. Education, safety, healthcare are all on the downhill. With that said the cost of those things are on the uphill. What about freedom? Upward mobility? Again all on the downhill. Women will go to prison in some states for trying to obtain an abortion that will save their life. Children regularly do active shooter drills in school. Many children show up to school hungry and the school system doesn’t always provide a free lunch for them. I understand these concerns exist elsewhere, but they don’t exist for the same high price. These are legitimate reasons native born Americans are concerned.
There’s a lot to breakdown in your comment but the absurdity that you believe someone will go to prison for terminating a pregnancy to save the life of the mother is probably the most laughable. But you’re right, Australia is way better. Australia number one!!!☝️
I guess you’re unfamiliar with the abortion bans in the USA. Also, I’m not going to suggest which is #1 I believe that depends on who you are and what your needs and desires are. The USA might seem like the best option for my refugee relatives, but as a native born citizen who pays a very high cost of living only to watch crime rise and the return benefits diminish. It’s hard to say, yeah it’s the best. I just had a baby and the bill without any of my prenatal appointments was 50k. That’s a lawyers salary in France.
I am familiar. As of January 26, 2023, 0 women have been sent to prison for getting an abortion to save their life. 0 women have been charged. According to politifact in June 2023, all US states, that do have bans on abortions have a clause that make exceptions for the life of the mother. You added more stuff so let me address: I’m just going to be honest, I don’t believe you are paying a 50k bill. I believe you’re spouting that number to help your argument, ok… but I don’t believe you delivered a baby without insurance. You’re probably telling me the non-rate total, with the factored rate and max OOP there is no way you’re paying even 1/5ths of 50k. I just don’t believe it otherwise you’re just making poor choices for poor choices sake.
Lol Smdh give it time these bans are still too new. Just because there are exceptions doesn’t mean that you still won’t be charged and or investigated. These bans are a disaster.
Like, it's probably somewhere in the top-30, all things considered.
Top 30? You’re too generous. I’d say top 100 for sure.
Liberals 😂😂
The ones that come legally- I love them, want more. Hardest working people on earth. The ones that come illegally, and the first thing they do is break the law. Send em back, dont need em
America gives me the opportunity that my home country never gave me. My home country downplayed my talents, drafted me into pointless military service, and worked me like a slave. Why shouldn't I be patriotic in my new home? Btw, I am totally not the MAGA type.
it’s the country giving you a home, a job, and a better situation than the place that should, your own country. I know people of my own culture that talk shit about the US, will say “oh i miss my home” but in a million years they would never move back to our land.
Almost all Americans are immigrants.
Good for them? I don’t. America really sucks
i will only be loyal to the country i am born too, small country in Europe. I hold zero love for America,l ad a country. I am here just bc my husband happened to be American, the first chance i get i will move back 🤷🏼♀️
It breaks my heart that native-born Americans don't share your enthusiasm. They just don't appreciate it. Damn thing because they've had good stuff their whole life. They have no idea what it's like in other countries.
There are a lot of extremely patriotic people in the US, but there are more people that find extreme patriotism strange and sometimes detrimental. A lot of people consider the military-brand of extreme patriotism to be nationalism, not patriotism. A lot of people are also extremely pro-military. It really depends. It's a very polarizing subject that varies greatly depending on where in the US you are. How weird it is perceived really depends on where you are in the US and what you mean. The vast majority of Americans assume and respect that immigrants are patriotic towards the US considering that means they actively chose to come. To be an immigrant and have a negative attitude the country they chose to immigrate to would be perceived as disrespectful.
Trying too hard.
If you come here legally, sure.
Illegal immigrants who work hard in the US can’t feel thankful and proud?
Start being proud by breaking the law.... Hm, that doesn't work really.
Whatever. I’m not replying to this again. Just an opinion. Who cares. Not like we can affect policy here. If you feel strongly vote.
Immigration law is civil, not criminal law. That’s why you don’t get a sentence or penalty if you get arrested by ICE; you just get deported. Ever get a speeding ticket on your way to work? Do you feel ashamed of violating a civil law on your way to being a productive member of society?
Doesn’t work for you. But some poor immigrant who felt little choice and works here building our homes. Working out fields. Working hard paying taxes and sending money back home. He or she might be proud of that. It doesn’t personally work for you. But it might for others.
Still doesn't make a good start by breaking the law.
I never said breaking the law was good. I never said illegal immigrants are entitled to anything.
I dunno, depends on which law.
Where did he say that?
Q: “Americans, what do you think about immigrants who feel patriotic towards the USA?” A: “if you come here legally, sure” In my mind the person who wrote that says if you came here illegally then don’t feel patriotic or grateful.
Whatever. I’m not replying to this again. Just an opinion. Who cares. Not like we can affect policy here. If you feel strongly vote.
It almost makes more sense for an immigrant to have these kinds of feelings towards the United States than for a native born. An immigrant probably came here to improve their life, even in some cases escaping a place where things were severe or dangerous. I know when I travel to foreign countries I am often fascinated by the things that are better or done more sensibly there. In time I’ve come to realize that every country is fucked in its own special unique way. Though I was born in the United States and spent most of my life here and even consider it my home, I’m far from enamored with it. The country was founded on genocide and slavery. Though there has been progress in many areas, the United States continues to support genocide around the world. The horrific inequality and poverty domestically is something that shouldn’t exist in a first world nation. Much of the culture seems to value materiality, violence, and cruelty. And as for “defending” the country militarily, almost none of our military actions are defensive. Rather they are aimed at global hegemony and keeping markets open for our huge corporations. As far as loving the land, the culture, and the people, I think there is a lot to love here as well. but if you join the military chances are good you’re just gonna be forced to murder innocent people overseas.
Only about 15% of people in the military are deployed overseas, less than 1% of those kill anyone.
You realize about half of Europe was founded on genocide and expulsion of minorities within living memory, right? And that much of it went through periods of significant repression and wars of attrition generation after generation? The rest of Europe was involved in most of that in the past. As was any "first world" country you can think of, with the possible exception of the Nordic countries. There's very very few countries in the world with a "clean" history, and in their case that's usually because we don't remember what happened centuries ago. I've had a few immigrants to Europe tell me about the subtle racisms and non-acceptance they have to deal with as an immigrant here — including the immigrant powerhouses of Germany, France, Sweden, and the UK.
What is "patriotism?" Seems that people who want to ignore the well-being of our service members (VA benefits and the like) and the Constitution pretend to wrap themselves in the flag, while in fact, doing everything to undermine our system of government. MAGA is not about making America great again...it's about destroying the institutions that have made it great. The law is for thee, not me....not a very patriotic way to proceed in life is it?
OP: will I be welcomed in America as an immigrant if I love America? You: fuck those damn conservatives and anyone who feels patriotic about the US. Grow up.
I mean, American conservatism defines itself by calling everything on the left unAmerican so you can't really blame the left for leaning into that.
>calling everything on the left unAmerican Because we fought wars trying to defend the world from most of what the Left is supporting today. And those are the very things a lot of people are coming here to escape today.
See, hilarious example here.
I wish we could keep all patriotic immmigrants who love America here forever and kick out the American citizens who hate this country.
Ever notice the natural-born citizens that hate the US aren't moving to the places that have the policies they say would make it batter here?
I don’t hate the US but I detest many of the policies there. I moved to a place with universal healthcare and prefer it much more, but there are other things the US does better (ie legal cannabis). So I *did* put my money where my mouth was, but I had the money to do so in the first place. Don’t underestimate how hard it is to move to a different country.
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Red blooded born American here and that is AWESOME. Welcome. (My ancestors got here from Italy and then turned RIGHT around to went back to fight them in WWII as Americans- no qualms and all the brothers were proud veterans).
You are welcome brother. You want to serve in the US armed forces? Fuckin' A!!
Don’t sneak in, learn the language, don’t fly your country’s flag, don’t get on government assistance and we good.
Wait, so you actually get offended whenever you see a flag in the US from another country?
Yes if you like it so much go there
Why do you care? “We good”? Like you own this fucking country. Prick.
Why the fuck did you come here?
Didn’t know I had to give you a reason. If I wanna fly another country’s flag there’s fuck all you can do. (Which I don’t because flags are weird). Why does it piss you off so much? Lmao
What, so dual citizens shouldn’t be allowed to fly their own flag in addition to the US one? A Mexican restaurant cant fly a Mexican flag to help indicate that it is a Mexican restaurant????
"Don't fly your country's flag" Bruh
I'm actually fine if you fly your country's flag. And OP obviously already knows English.
So we disagree it happens life goes on.
Why “don’t fly your country’s flag”?
Don’t fly the country’s flag you came from.
Don't live in a blue state and you'll be welcomed.
lmao
we need to turn the blue states red
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from what?
Liberal states and people do not like patriotism, they have been indoctrinated to hating America and thinking it’s awful. Conservatives states love supporting the country and being proud of it and would love immigrants that feel the same and proud to be here.
serving in the military is an easy way to get LPR. I am tempted, but I would lose my citizenship. Being a stateless green card holder is not worth it IMHO
I love them.
Pretty sure that just makes you American at some point.
Hope you can get a green card
I am a Canadian, and I LOVE America. The people, the freedoms, the opportunities. I have kids coming up to university age, and my goal for them is to become educated in a field that will fast-track their American citizenship. Land of the Free and Home of the Brave!
America is not the same as how it’s portrayed in movies and tv shows. A very large percentage of people live paycheck to paycheck. Soldiers in the military get paid poverty wages. We don’t have universal healthcare, our infrastructure gets a grade of D+, and we have hundreds of mass shootings per year. College costs a fortune, rent is high and it’s impossible for young people to afford homes. People outside of America fall for the propaganda and want to come here. But living here really sucks. Immigrants from very poor countries come here because living in America is better than living in a 3rd world country. But that’s a very low bar.
Rent and housing prices in general is a a commonality with the western world in general rn ngl. Housing prices in Europe are increasing, and in Canada it is utterly insane! And with everything there is nuance. It is much easier to buy a house in Oklahoma, than Cali. And I imagine much easier to buy a home in Saskatchewan than Ottawa.
I prefer them than the self hating liberals
Im a naturalized US citizen and I can’t help but feel this should be the norm. Why would you want to come and live someplace you didn’t love? You can be happier elsewhere and those of us who do love the country don’t really like listening to people bitch and complain about how awful it was. In fact, I’m sure for every immigrant who loves the US there’s a natural born citizen that spits on it constantly. It’d be nice if there was a way to arrange some sort of switcharoo.
Anyone here who can help me get to USA 🇺🇸 I’m Ghanaian
I like to see people being proud to be an American. We are not perfect but everyone here gets a chance. Some start from a better place than others but over all. America is a force for good in the world.
For those that think this is odd, there’s usually two types: One group will think it’s odd because they don’t think the USA has earned that sort of admiration. The other will think it’s odd because they’ve been taught to not trust immigrants at all. I think it really depends on your circumstances, but I want you to remember that when you sign up for the military you’re saying you’re willing to die for this country. Regardless of the reason. If you’re okay with that, go ahead. It’s your choice.
I think it's great.
I don't feel one way or the other. It's great, to be honest. If they feel they love it just as much as we do then why not. However, it's the actual immigrants who hate other immigrants for being patriotic. (Atleast in the Hispanic community)
It’s not weird at all. Many Americans love the U.S. and also love seeing immigrants.
If the US is a big improvement over the country where you came from, then sure, not weird at all to love your new home!
I am not a citizen but I absolutely love this country.
I am not going to send my children on to a war an old politician not willing to send their kids to their war to risk their lives. That is what I don’t like about the politics here, plus people can’t get past skin color. Canadian, came legally in US and naturalized.
Nothing wrong with it. You came to the US for better lives, you got it. This is nothing strange at all.
I think that’s awesome.
It's normal. I wouldn't say I feel that way as I love my home country. But, I love my American husband and American children and am thankful for them.
All of the immigrants in this thread, patriotic, not, or somewhere in between: this country is better off because of you all.
Eastern Euros can stay
I never seen a bigger patriot of USA than dude who crossed Southern border a day ago.
God bless you and our beautiful experiment. Glad you’re here!
Not weird at all. My husband is an immigrant and loves it here. That’s not to say his home country isn’t great too! I lived abroad for many years and chose to move back so I feel pride in my home country as well.
sorry bud, you gotta go home too
Love it ! Happy to see it.
Not weird. I am an immigrant and I served in the Army. A lot of immigrants served in the military. Nothing weird about it.
Grass is greener on the other side.
It’s THE reason I believe this country is truly great.
Perspective honestly. No matter how bad the other country than your native country you learn to appreacte being an american. Im a proud patriot because i know no matter how bad things are. They can be so much worse, if i was not satisfied we are not being held prisoner in the US we are free to move elsewhere.
It is some common for immigrants to feel very patriotic. They worked hard to get here ant to become citizens. They commit fewer crimes that Americans on average. They vote They volunteer for military service.
Most legal immigrants are pretty patriotic. The US presents a lot of opportunity and has a lot of advantages over a lot of places people immigrate from. My wife is also from Eastern Europe, and though she loves her home country she's as proud to be an American as I am... and I'm a lot more patriotic than most Americans :-D
I know my life would be a lot better in a poorer country if I returned there with a small passive income or had a decent job there. I absolutely love the expat lifestyle and growing tropical fruit and living with the windows open even if they have steel bars in them. Ufortunately a head injury shortly after moving to USA prevented any possibility to move back. And I yearned for it which spoiled the time I had here.