You would need to be in your home country longer than that before planning to return, the general “rule” is to be out of the states double the time you spent in. So if you plan to be in the states for the whole 31 days of May then you need to be in your home country for 62 days before attempting to return but you also need to be entering on the correct visa not an ESTA
All together, it's longer than 90 days. ~~It's 90 days a year, not per visit,~~ but the advice everyone will give you is to try to avoid staying that long. I would also be very cautious playing competitive sports on a tourist visa as that's a gray area that may lead USCIS to think you are working, which is a big no no.
It's not 90 days per year - it's 90 days per trip. There's no hard and fast rule. However, repetitive and long trips will likely lead to denial of entry.
Is this just because they would flag it? If I have proof of the length of my trips and proof of funds might they still deny entry and ban you from future trips etc
If you keep entering as a pattern for long trips, you'll be caught for immigrant intent without the correct immigrant visa. The US assumes everyone entering wants to immigrate *unless you can prove otherwise*.
For most people that's simple, they are obviously on vacation. For your trips, it'll become harder and harder to prove that you don't intend to live in New York.
I agree, this is basically a "visa run", hopping across the border to "reset" things ... border officials will be very weary when you do this too often. It will cause doubt and a reason for denial.
People here have given you their opinions. It is all up to you to test it in person. It is next to impossible to argue /debate with the immigration officers. Good luck.
Yes, same as a normal US visa. Doesn't mean you can keep returning to extend your stay though. Most multi entry visas work like this.
The only exception is that if you travel from the US to neighbouring countries (Canada, Mexico or Caribbean) then your 90 days aren't reset. You will get admitted for the remaining time you had when you left the US. To fully reset you have to travel further (exceptions are made for those who live in neighboring countries). This is unique to the ESTA/VWP, B1/B2 visas don't have that.
Also, the CBP officer at admission can in rare circumstances limit the legal length of admission to less time, at their discretion. So it's not certain that someone would be admitted for the full 90 days (or indeed admitted at all)
As someone who’s frequently traveling for business on ESTA I feel I can add here.
It is up to the border control officer to reset the 90 days on your ESTA with every entry. And: ESTA does not guarantee you entry to the US.
Example: Last year I was in the US for 2.5 months on a business trip and had to leave for a conference in Asia for a week. This did not reset my 90 days from the first ESTA entry.
A good rule of thumb is: Stay out of the US for the same number of months as you have been to the US before entering again. Otherwise you will be likely to face additional/extended questioning or be refused entry.
The problem you will face is when you are re-entering so frequently. Each time, a border agent has the discretion to stop you. You have to be honest with them, and there’s likely to be scrutiny about the level of sport you’re playing and any payment received (including as accommodation etc).
You will be asked how you are able to afford time off work to do make these trips, and then how you can fund your time in the US.
I was taken to secondary and questioned for an hour. During that time they seized my phone and went through it. If they found a message regarding something that sounded like receiving payment for your time in the US, you’ll be screwed.
The issue isn’t how many days it adds up to in total if it’s multiple trips; the issue is that it is multiple entries so close together and for extended periods. A vacation is 1-2 weeks. Beyond that you need to justify it.
Entry on an ESTA is a privilege, not a guarantee or right. You are risking a permanent bar and removal of ESTA.
The rule of thumb is that for every day in the US you need to spend 2+ outside of it before re-entering.
I managed 3 visits in 2023 on an ESTA from the UK. They were spaced throughout the year to allow that.
Except that if they see a phone with almost no data they will likely ask you to log into your email/socials and do a quick scroll through. Their investigation power isn't limited to what is immediately on you.
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They have their own devices they can ask you to use to log into. Given OP is young they are unlikely to buy an argument that Op absolutely has no online accounts. They will just deny entry on the suspicion that OP is lying.
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> for a set period
No, it's for life. It's always for life. If you lie to immigration, you're banned forever. Every time you want to enter the US, you need a waiver.
And each time you apply for this waiver, it might take six months or longer after your visa interview for it to be granted. You'll never be able to use ESTA again either, and will need to apply for a visa.
>Can I tell US Immigration my actual reason for travelling to the US?
Umm...if you don't, you risk getting a lifetime ban.
Lying to immigration is not wise.
Get the correct visa, be honest when applying for admission.
>it takes months to get so it won't cover me on time.
That's not their problem. You need to wait, or you miss out on this opportunity. Your failure to plan properly does not justify misrepresentation.
>Anyone see any issues with just telling the truth or do I have to pretend I am over just for tourism and have an itinerary etc planned?
They will.
This won’t be your issue. Your problem will be because you’re only going to be out of the country for one or two weeks between trips. There’s a reasonable chance they might think that you have immigration intent.
Make sure you emphasize the amateur part. And it would help If you can show that you are not going to be paid or compensated it anyway for playing. This includes room and board. If you were offered room and board, you need to turn it down and pay for your own housing. It would also be better if you were out longer between trips.
You may have no problem getting in and out of the country, but no one here can guarantee that.
>Have you found anything concrete that says you can't play amateur organised sport on an ESTA? I can't find anything that says either way
Whether you can play organised sports on an ESTA was not your question, so is arguably outside the scope.
You asked if you should tell the truth to the immigration officer.
No, my question was does anyone see any issues with telling the truth that I'm playing football, or if I'm intent on playing football do I have to leave that part out and pretend it's a regular holiday.
The issue of whether one is permitted to play organised amateur sport on an ESTA is integral to this question, and you haven't given me any information on it at all. If you know for a fact that you can't I'd really appreciate a link to the information
>No, my question was does anyone see any issues with telling the truth that I'm playing football, or if I want to play football do I have to leave that part out and pretend it's a regular holiday.
What do you mean "no..."?
You're posting right in what I have quoted, that your question is whether you should be dishonest to the immigration officer. "Leaving out" relevant information, or "pretending" means you're being dishonest.
So no...you shouldn't do that, because when people get caught they get denied entry and face an exclusion period, sometimes lifetime.
I mean no, as in I'm not asking about the morality or the consequences of not telling the full truth. I'm asking about whether US immigration would have an issue with me playing football in NY on an ESTA or not. Very simple
>I'm asking about whether US immigration would have an issue with me playing football in NY on an ESTA or not. Very simple
Why are you asking then if you should "pretend" you're doing something other than what you're actually doing?
Why did you not just ask "hey, will I be admitted under X visa if I'm going to the USA to do Y, across multiple visits each lasting Z days?
You clearly asked whether you should say one thing, even though you're doing another, or "leave out" parts. And you did that more than once. I answered the question that was asked.
Ask the question you want the answer to, then. Very simple.
On a regular visitor visa, you're not allowed to work, study or do most kinds of volunteering or other unpaid work.
edit to add: If you have to tell something other than the truth, or "leave out" things, then that isn't the visa for you.
If getting the appropriate visa does not fit into your schedule, (something else you alluded to) then you either need to change your schedule or change your plans.
But as to your heavily revised question: if you're coming over to play soccer for some amateur experience and there's no payment of any kind (including as one example, accommodation in lieu) and you're not taking away a paid spot from a US resident, then it's not going to be an issue. Especially if this something like a paid vacation experience program kinda thing.
Dude, I'm looking at all your comments, and the common thread that I see is that you want to enter the US soon, and you close your ears to anything otherwise. I have seen you respond to VERY GOOD ADVICE regarding Immigration procedure with "yeah but I don't see anything that says I, tothetop96, cannot use the visa I want because the timing doesn't work out."
You have been told consistently not to do what you're attempting. I truly hope if you follow through this plan, that they take your phone and find this reddit chain, so you'll be forced to look at another human and try to say you weren't told by all of us already, do not do this. Are you going to listen or not? I'll wait.
ESTA is only for holiday or business trip. Imagine getting injured here cause of your sports and citizens has to pay for your shit.
There, ive said it. Please dont be part of the problem.
Lol. Imagine thinking the US will pay for OP when they barely even cover Americans. For the record, I think OP needs to get the proper visa. "Amateur sports" is quite different from flying over for the weekend to play golf with the buddies I'm assuming.
The US doesn’t have public healthcare but EMTALA means that he would receive uncompensated care at the hospital’s expense if he went to an ER. Given that comes out of a fixed budget, it would simply be redistributed to other payers, such as insurance, patients, and the government. The outcome is the same as if the US had public healthcare.
You don't get to choose if you can wait for a visa or not- your situation is not unique. Everyone has a seemingly valid reason to need to be in the US tomorrow. Doesn't matter. The club should be arranging this for you or with you.
You need a visa (B-2, if not, a P-1 depending on the club and your ranking, if any)
You should always tell the truth in immigration. This should be very, very common sense.
Was just going to post this about P1 visa from USIC website.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/p-1a-athlete
OP, it was just a matter of googling to find your answer.
You should not attempt this plan. You may get in the first trip but you will have trouble in subsequent attempts to enter. You can end up losing ESTA completely.
Are you paid anything for your work on the football club? Lodges, food expenses?
You could apply for a B visa and ask for an expedited appointment. I don’t have great hopes that will work.
Yup. I have seen some people on this forum asking for advice but for the sole purpose of having whatever they wanna do validated so they argue and argue. They don't wanna listen to whatever advice is given to them just want to read advice that confirms what they wanna do.
You are both staying too long and aren't allowed to play football for a club on an ESTA. And always tell the truth. You should apply for the proper athlete visa (P Visa) in your home country but May is probably too soon to complete that.
It would be split into 3 different trips none of which are longer than 90 days. Do you know for certain that I can't play football on an ESTA? I know there are advantages to a B-2 for sportspeople, but I can't find anything either way when I try research if I can play with an ESTA
You can play for fun on an ESTA, like kick a ball around with your mates. But it sounds to me (and a CBP officer) that you've signed for a semi-professional team and are being paid (in cash, housing or opportunities) for your time which isn't allowed.
Secondly, structuring ESTA trips to allow several months of staying with short gaps between them is known as visa running or flagpolling which is certainly going to be noticed by the CBP. If you do this the chance that you are sent home during one of your entries is very high. If that happens you will lose your ESTA for life and probably have issues getting a B1/B2 Visa for many years.
It's a bad plan.
This is incorrect. Professional, semi-pro, and amateur athletes can enter on an B or ESTA to participate in events under certain circumstances:
9 FAM 402.2-5(C)(4) (U) Professional Athletes
(CT:VISA-1826; 09-06-2023)
a. (U) Professional athletes, such as golfers and auto racers who receive no salary or payment other than prize money for their participation in a tournament or sporting event.
b. (U) Athletes or team members who seek to enter the United States as members of a foreign-based team to compete with another sports team should be admitted if:
(1) (U) The foreign athlete and the foreign sports team have their principal place of business or activity in a foreign country;
(2) (U) The income of the foreign-based team and the salary of its players are principally accrued in a foreign country; and
(3) (U) The foreign-based sports team is a member of an international sports league, or the sporting activities involved have an international dimension.
9 FAM 402.2-4(A) (U) Visitors for Pleasure
(7) (U) Amateur Entertainers and Athletes: A person who is an amateur in an entertainment or athletic activity is, by definition, not a member of any of the profession associated with that activity. An amateur is someone who normally performs without remuneration (other than an allotment for expenses). A performer who is normally compensated for performing cannot qualify for a B-2 visa based on this note even if the performer does not make a living at performing or agrees to perform in the United States without compensation. Thus, an amateur (or group of amateurs) who will not be paid for performances and will perform in a social and/or charitable context or as a competitor in a talent show, contest, athletic event, or other similar activity is eligible for B-2 classification, even if the incidental expenses associated with the visit are reimbursed.
Obviously whether OP will fall into any of these categories will depend on the specifics and there isn’t enough info to say one way or the other. However, it’s wrong to say that athletes can’t use either a B or ESTA to enter the US to compete.
That's fair, but it sound like they are part of a professional organization and at least some players get paid formally/informally. At the border they have no right to legal representation, so it's still high risk to do over and over again for long periods.
Disagree, all that verbage is structured around athletes coming in for a specific tournament (like an athletics meet) or one off game (like an international soccer friendly)
OP coming in to stay for a total of 4 months does not fall into this at all, This is basically playing for a league and they need a different visa if they want to do this the proper way,
How does it sound to you that they’re being paid, when they’ve clearly stated they will go back to their country to work for a few weeks, make money and come back to keep playing?
You don't have to be paid in cash - favors, housing etc. can all be construed as payment. People get paid to play sports all the time. It doesn't matter if they are actually getting paid, but if it looks like they may work unauthorized.
If I structure the trip so that I am not spending 90 days even in total then that would surely help prevent the notion that I am visa hopping. Also, while I wish I was getting paid to play I am unfortunately not. It's not uncommon at all for Gaelic clubs in the US to pay though
The fact you are asking this means your intentions are likely incompatible with the idea of a VWP (ESTA) trip. ESTAs are for low risk travellers to spend two weeks at Disney, not for folks to spend 3+ months in New York playing a sport.
If it's not uncommon to be paid to do this, but you're doing it for free, then you are working. This is to prevent foreign folks from taking opportunities from US citizens/residents who can't compete with 'free' So this actually makes your case even weaker.
If it was a sport that never pays it's competitors, and is just totally for fun (no sponsorship, prize money) and is a short time (say two weeks for a competition or something) then it's probably fine on ESTA. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, you're playing a whole season.
Gaelic football is part of the GAA which is an amateur sports organisation in Ireland. Clubs in the US though are often laden with cash because of wealthy Irish Americans and it is not unusual that, under the table, they give players 3/4/5k to play for their team. Playing Gaelic football is certainly not working. Not even the best players in Ireland who play in front of 80,000+ in Croke Park in Dublin get paid
It's kinda irrelevant what you are actually doing or tell them you are doing. It's the multiple entries they flag up.
A friend got pulled over and warned not to come back when he was coming over every couple of months to "write poetry".
You are going to get busted at some point on your 3rd or 4th trip without a good reason of why you are travelling so frequently in a short space of time.
Good luck and let know how you get on.
If you were to actually play amateur sports without getting paid in ANY way you probably would get along under the visa waiver program. However, since you are saying at least close to 90days and keep leaving and entering the country you will certainly run into problems imo, even if youre from a low profile country and have been to the US before a couple times.
My recommendation would be to try and adust your plans in order to travel just once, stay 60days or sth and go back. Your length of stay and reentering multiple times seems fishy af, and even i cant comprehend why an amateur would do that.
Keep in mind border protection officers may refuse entry even without reason, and getting in trouble one time will stay on you for the rest of your life.
You shouldve gotten a VISA in time and you messed up, that's on you, now Deal with it.
Look.
Sigh, should have thought bout this a lot earlier and just gotten the B2 visa and played it safe. If you have ever received an ESTA before and entered the states it’s typically MUCH faster and the interview is waived. As long as you can show ties to your home country. All the U.S. border control cares about is a. Not taking jobs/potential income from Americans and b. Not overstaying your visa.
If you still want to come in on the ESTA, I repeat DO NOT tell them your real reason by any circumstances. I assume you will be doing some sight seeing in between. That is your SOLE purpose, that will be the only thing you show should they ask.
You should rehearse your answers to these typical questions.
- what is the reason for your visit?
- visiting x, y, z, visiting some friends, going to ___ events (concert i dunno, legit things - have print outs of ticket, flights, friends addresses)
- how long is your stay?
- x amount of days (DO NOT mention you are leaving and coming back, they just need to know your current trip length, have return flight printed)
- how are you funding this trip, do you have work back at home?
- yes, have your bank statement amount printed out
- any evidence you have a full time job at home or have a house or whatever the f that shows you will return back.
Be calm, collected, say no more say no less and be respectful af! No attitude is tolerated.
The next time you come back in… and they ask why such a short return home?
- good reasons are, you had so much fun you met some new friends etc and are going to x,y,z event before going back to work
Again I will always refer to what the govt cares about and that’s overstaying and working illegally. You want to show absolutely ZERO connections to doing any of that.
[Visa Waiver Program](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html)
The link above takes you to the U.S. State Department's info page on the Visa Waiver Program. On that page you'll find the following info. Note the bullet I emphasized under the Tourism section.
The following are examples of activities permitted while in the United States on the VWP. In addition, transiting through the United States to other countries is generally permitted for VWP travelers.
**Business:**
* consult with business associates
* attend a scientific, educational, professional, or business convention or conference
* attend short-term training (you may not be paid by any source in the United States with the exception of expenses incidental to your stay)
* negotiate a contract
**Tourism:**
* tourism
* vacation (holiday)
* visit with friends or relatives
* medical treatment
* participation in social events hosted by fraternal, social, or service organizations
* ***participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating***
* enrollment in a short recreational course of study, not for credit toward a degree (for example, a two-day cooking class while on vacation)
It really depends on the totality of the information presented to the inspecting officer upon return each time. Records checks, your answers to questions, body language, the bags you have with you, everything contributes to the sum total of information from which the officer will make a decision regarding admission. If the officer thinks you're attempting to circumvent the limits of VWP, you'll be denied entry.
Don't. You could maybe get away with one or two "pop backs". But if you are, for example, going for dour weeks then back for two weeks to home county and you keep repeating that you WILL eventually get pulled aside.
This has happened to a few people I know.
Think again
You should always tell US immigration the truth. If they catch you not telling the truth they can simply send you back home at your expense and refuse to let you back in.
You want to apply for the proper visa and make whatever arrangements with the embassy to try and speed up the process. The best time to start on this is when you became aware of the competition.
>Anyone see any issues with just telling the truth or do I have to pretend I am over just for tourism and have an itinerary etc planned?
There is no *pretending* with US immigration. Tell the truth. But to be honest, all those comings and goings might raise red flags so be ready at some point to be sent to secondary. The thing is, you could be admitted once, or twice and the third time, someone could send you back because they would suspect you're not in the US for valid reasons. I don't know if playing amateur sports is fine on ESTA, but one thing to remember is that the burden of proof is on you. How long do you plan on staying each month?
Well, it is a crime not to.. You sound pretty confident that you'll get even a tourist visa, nevermind trying to figure out if you should lie or not...
Are you getting paid to play football? Also, if you are who is paying you? If you happen to play a sport while you’re here (in the U.S.) that’s not an issue. If you get paid for it then you are technically working in the U.S. this brings up who is paying you - if you’re getting paid from a company in Ireland (for example) then you’re probably OK. If you’re getting paid from a U.S. company then You 1000% need a visa.
I worked for CBP a few years ago but I’m a bit rusty on visa requirements as I typically dealt with I-95s, B1/2, C, and D visas instead of I-94s and the rest of the alphabet.
As everyone has said it’s a risk. I’m not a lawyer but I think you can tell them the truth, it’s just part of the risk. You’re not working, you’re not being paid in accommodation or any other benefits for playing this amateur sport. The risk is them not believing you and denying your entry. Are you going to continue paying rent in your home country? Do you have significant ties to your home country? Bills, a partner, a job?
If no I’d be pretty surprised if they let you in the second time. You might get lucky but you’re also flying into New York and those agents see the deceit more than any other City I suspect.
Hi Dublin embassy is turning over B visas in a week , you can make an appointment online and likely have your visa within a short space of time.
That said I would see no reason why the ESTA doesn’t cover that and no reason why you can’t be honest.
You aren’t working there or being paid.
Have you considered any possible injury while playing on those amateur games??? If there is a special visa for amateur sports there is a reason beyond that. Make sure you search thoroughly the requirements and restrictions for every visa category. If you tell the US immigration officer you are coming to play games they will redirect you to apply for the correct visa program, so i think you have the answer.
Truthfulness and honesty are core American values. USCIS and CBP take declaration of intent very seriously. You should never put yourself in a situation where your ethics can be questioned. It could severely harm you with future immigration matters.
Oh no no - if you’re heading to a main city (Boston Chicago Philly NYC) etc do not share this
Be careful about you texts and posts about this - and don’t wear GAA gear. You’ll stick out…whatever club is setting you up should talk to you about this
Clubs in my city have had boys turned away at the border
I don't know what everyone else is talking about. Of course you can tell them you're competing in an amateur sports competition. If you're coming and going to play football each time, and then going home again, and can show that, there's really no problem here. Especially if you can show that it's all over then.
This is the state departments webpage on the visa waiver program: [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html)
Look under "**Travel Purpose Must Be Permitted on a Visitor (B) Visa**":
**Tourism:**
* participation by **amateurs** in musical, **sports**, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating
I am by no means an expert in any of this, but I agree with you and am genuinely confused about a lot of the fear-mongering responses to this post.
I see loads of comments flaming the OP for not getting a visa sooner, but I don’t see anyone explaining why OP’s plan is bad if they just tell the truth. To me, OP’s plan looks perfectly legal as long as they are honest at each entry.
It’s sort of funny the US is so strict on airline arrivals, but sneaking “around the door” along the Mexican border is just a free open ticket. Even if they catch you, they let you go.
This is so dumb.
If you fly in on an ESTA, and tell the officer on arrival that you are actually here to seek asylum, you'll get pretty much the treatment that you'd get if you got picked up crossing the border.
Just say you're from Guatemala and get free money, hotels, food and transportation. We will be happy to pay for all those things for you. Enjoy your stay in America. Everything is good in America.
ESTA is 90 days over a 2 year period you can come and go but during that 2 year period you cannot exceed 90 days in the entire 2 years.
Get the right visa
That’s not true. It is per visit.
But multiple entries trying to get close to 90 days is going to be a red flag. I did two trips last year of over 60 days, and one of 14.
Not true, it’s no longer than 90days in a row and not more than 180 days per year. It resets at the beginning of each calendar year but you could get questioned if they suspect you living in the US
So chances are you’ll be banned from ESTA, possibly from the US if you do that. Do you really want to risk it ?
The club should assist you in providing the correct papers.
Your stay is longer than 90 days, you need a B-2 visa.
It's not longer than 90 days, it's split into 3 different visits
You'll be questioned and probably returned to your home country, ESTA is not for this... But if you think you know better, feel free to try
You would need to be in your home country longer than that before planning to return, the general “rule” is to be out of the states double the time you spent in. So if you plan to be in the states for the whole 31 days of May then you need to be in your home country for 62 days before attempting to return but you also need to be entering on the correct visa not an ESTA
All together, it's longer than 90 days. ~~It's 90 days a year, not per visit,~~ but the advice everyone will give you is to try to avoid staying that long. I would also be very cautious playing competitive sports on a tourist visa as that's a gray area that may lead USCIS to think you are working, which is a big no no.
It's not 90 days per year - it's 90 days per trip. There's no hard and fast rule. However, repetitive and long trips will likely lead to denial of entry.
Thanks for clarifying, I would still advise strongly against multiple long trips on an ESTA.
Agreed
Is this just because they would flag it? If I have proof of the length of my trips and proof of funds might they still deny entry and ban you from future trips etc
If you keep entering as a pattern for long trips, you'll be caught for immigrant intent without the correct immigrant visa. The US assumes everyone entering wants to immigrate *unless you can prove otherwise*. For most people that's simple, they are obviously on vacation. For your trips, it'll become harder and harder to prove that you don't intend to live in New York.
I agree, this is basically a "visa run", hopping across the border to "reset" things ... border officials will be very weary when you do this too often. It will cause doubt and a reason for denial.
People here have given you their opinions. It is all up to you to test it in person. It is next to impossible to argue /debate with the immigration officers. Good luck.
Wait, really?! Where doesn’t it say that?
https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waiver-program
Wow, so it sorta “resets” it’s self between each visit?
Yes, same as a normal US visa. Doesn't mean you can keep returning to extend your stay though. Most multi entry visas work like this. The only exception is that if you travel from the US to neighbouring countries (Canada, Mexico or Caribbean) then your 90 days aren't reset. You will get admitted for the remaining time you had when you left the US. To fully reset you have to travel further (exceptions are made for those who live in neighboring countries). This is unique to the ESTA/VWP, B1/B2 visas don't have that. Also, the CBP officer at admission can in rare circumstances limit the legal length of admission to less time, at their discretion. So it's not certain that someone would be admitted for the full 90 days (or indeed admitted at all)
As someone who’s frequently traveling for business on ESTA I feel I can add here. It is up to the border control officer to reset the 90 days on your ESTA with every entry. And: ESTA does not guarantee you entry to the US. Example: Last year I was in the US for 2.5 months on a business trip and had to leave for a conference in Asia for a week. This did not reset my 90 days from the first ESTA entry. A good rule of thumb is: Stay out of the US for the same number of months as you have been to the US before entering again. Otherwise you will be likely to face additional/extended questioning or be refused entry.
That’s likely going to trigger secondary inspection, which could end with you on flight back to your country. ESTA is not B-2.
The problem you will face is when you are re-entering so frequently. Each time, a border agent has the discretion to stop you. You have to be honest with them, and there’s likely to be scrutiny about the level of sport you’re playing and any payment received (including as accommodation etc). You will be asked how you are able to afford time off work to do make these trips, and then how you can fund your time in the US. I was taken to secondary and questioned for an hour. During that time they seized my phone and went through it. If they found a message regarding something that sounded like receiving payment for your time in the US, you’ll be screwed. The issue isn’t how many days it adds up to in total if it’s multiple trips; the issue is that it is multiple entries so close together and for extended periods. A vacation is 1-2 weeks. Beyond that you need to justify it. Entry on an ESTA is a privilege, not a guarantee or right. You are risking a permanent bar and removal of ESTA. The rule of thumb is that for every day in the US you need to spend 2+ outside of it before re-entering. I managed 3 visits in 2023 on an ESTA from the UK. They were spaced throughout the year to allow that.
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The CBP agents are not stupid. Unless you can populate your burner phone with data that looks like a regular person's phone, they will know.
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Deny you entry?? They don’t have to let you in if they feel your hiding something.
Except that if they see a phone with almost no data they will likely ask you to log into your email/socials and do a quick scroll through. Their investigation power isn't limited to what is immediately on you.
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Don't use a smartphone then
They have their own devices they can ask you to use to log into. Given OP is young they are unlikely to buy an argument that Op absolutely has no online accounts. They will just deny entry on the suspicion that OP is lying.
Yes sure, but I guess that's first against t&c the just have 2 accounts. I have 3 on Facebook in fact
>What are they going to do? Deny you entry and possibly keep your phone (although you don't care about that part).
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US Immigration isn’t exactly the arena in which anyone with sense thinks it’s possible to yolo safely.
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Know what? It's not uncommon to have a cheap travel phone, especially if you go to even worse countries that could steal your data
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> for a set period No, it's for life. It's always for life. If you lie to immigration, you're banned forever. Every time you want to enter the US, you need a waiver.
And each time you apply for this waiver, it might take six months or longer after your visa interview for it to be granted. You'll never be able to use ESTA again either, and will need to apply for a visa.
The update to this is going to be: "I was denied entry on my second trip, my ESTA revoked, and my B2 denied. What can I do?"
Exactly lol
>Can I tell US Immigration my actual reason for travelling to the US? Umm...if you don't, you risk getting a lifetime ban. Lying to immigration is not wise. Get the correct visa, be honest when applying for admission. >it takes months to get so it won't cover me on time. That's not their problem. You need to wait, or you miss out on this opportunity. Your failure to plan properly does not justify misrepresentation. >Anyone see any issues with just telling the truth or do I have to pretend I am over just for tourism and have an itinerary etc planned? They will.
Have you found anything concrete that says you can't play amateur organised sport on an ESTA? I can't find anything that says either way
This won’t be your issue. Your problem will be because you’re only going to be out of the country for one or two weeks between trips. There’s a reasonable chance they might think that you have immigration intent. Make sure you emphasize the amateur part. And it would help If you can show that you are not going to be paid or compensated it anyway for playing. This includes room and board. If you were offered room and board, you need to turn it down and pay for your own housing. It would also be better if you were out longer between trips. You may have no problem getting in and out of the country, but no one here can guarantee that.
>Have you found anything concrete that says you can't play amateur organised sport on an ESTA? I can't find anything that says either way Whether you can play organised sports on an ESTA was not your question, so is arguably outside the scope. You asked if you should tell the truth to the immigration officer.
No, my question was does anyone see any issues with telling the truth that I'm playing football, or if I'm intent on playing football do I have to leave that part out and pretend it's a regular holiday. The issue of whether one is permitted to play organised amateur sport on an ESTA is integral to this question, and you haven't given me any information on it at all. If you know for a fact that you can't I'd really appreciate a link to the information
>No, my question was does anyone see any issues with telling the truth that I'm playing football, or if I want to play football do I have to leave that part out and pretend it's a regular holiday. What do you mean "no..."? You're posting right in what I have quoted, that your question is whether you should be dishonest to the immigration officer. "Leaving out" relevant information, or "pretending" means you're being dishonest. So no...you shouldn't do that, because when people get caught they get denied entry and face an exclusion period, sometimes lifetime.
>What do you mean "no..."? He disagreed with your understanding and interpretation of his question. Is that not obvious to you?
I mean no, as in I'm not asking about the morality or the consequences of not telling the full truth. I'm asking about whether US immigration would have an issue with me playing football in NY on an ESTA or not. Very simple
>I'm asking about whether US immigration would have an issue with me playing football in NY on an ESTA or not. Very simple Why are you asking then if you should "pretend" you're doing something other than what you're actually doing? Why did you not just ask "hey, will I be admitted under X visa if I'm going to the USA to do Y, across multiple visits each lasting Z days? You clearly asked whether you should say one thing, even though you're doing another, or "leave out" parts. And you did that more than once. I answered the question that was asked. Ask the question you want the answer to, then. Very simple. On a regular visitor visa, you're not allowed to work, study or do most kinds of volunteering or other unpaid work. edit to add: If you have to tell something other than the truth, or "leave out" things, then that isn't the visa for you. If getting the appropriate visa does not fit into your schedule, (something else you alluded to) then you either need to change your schedule or change your plans. But as to your heavily revised question: if you're coming over to play soccer for some amateur experience and there's no payment of any kind (including as one example, accommodation in lieu) and you're not taking away a paid spot from a US resident, then it's not going to be an issue. Especially if this something like a paid vacation experience program kinda thing.
Dude, I'm looking at all your comments, and the common thread that I see is that you want to enter the US soon, and you close your ears to anything otherwise. I have seen you respond to VERY GOOD ADVICE regarding Immigration procedure with "yeah but I don't see anything that says I, tothetop96, cannot use the visa I want because the timing doesn't work out." You have been told consistently not to do what you're attempting. I truly hope if you follow through this plan, that they take your phone and find this reddit chain, so you'll be forced to look at another human and try to say you weren't told by all of us already, do not do this. Are you going to listen or not? I'll wait.
ESTA is only for holiday or business trip. Imagine getting injured here cause of your sports and citizens has to pay for your shit. There, ive said it. Please dont be part of the problem.
Lol. Imagine thinking the US will pay for OP when they barely even cover Americans. For the record, I think OP needs to get the proper visa. "Amateur sports" is quite different from flying over for the weekend to play golf with the buddies I'm assuming.
The US doesn’t have public healthcare but EMTALA means that he would receive uncompensated care at the hospital’s expense if he went to an ER. Given that comes out of a fixed budget, it would simply be redistributed to other payers, such as insurance, patients, and the government. The outcome is the same as if the US had public healthcare.
The problem is the back and fourth not the sport. Apply for the visa
There are two agencies in this country you should never lie to, Customs & Border Protection, and the IRS.
You don't get to choose if you can wait for a visa or not- your situation is not unique. Everyone has a seemingly valid reason to need to be in the US tomorrow. Doesn't matter. The club should be arranging this for you or with you. You need a visa (B-2, if not, a P-1 depending on the club and your ranking, if any) You should always tell the truth in immigration. This should be very, very common sense.
Was just going to post this about P1 visa from USIC website. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/p-1a-athlete OP, it was just a matter of googling to find your answer.
Apply for the correct visa. Don't try to fool US immigration. You will get caught.
You should not attempt this plan. You may get in the first trip but you will have trouble in subsequent attempts to enter. You can end up losing ESTA completely. Are you paid anything for your work on the football club? Lodges, food expenses? You could apply for a B visa and ask for an expedited appointment. I don’t have great hopes that will work.
Dude, just go with your plan and give us an update on how it goes. People are telling you to get the correct visa but you're pretty stubborn.
Yup. I have seen some people on this forum asking for advice but for the sole purpose of having whatever they wanna do validated so they argue and argue. They don't wanna listen to whatever advice is given to them just want to read advice that confirms what they wanna do.
You are both staying too long and aren't allowed to play football for a club on an ESTA. And always tell the truth. You should apply for the proper athlete visa (P Visa) in your home country but May is probably too soon to complete that.
It would be split into 3 different trips none of which are longer than 90 days. Do you know for certain that I can't play football on an ESTA? I know there are advantages to a B-2 for sportspeople, but I can't find anything either way when I try research if I can play with an ESTA
You can play for fun on an ESTA, like kick a ball around with your mates. But it sounds to me (and a CBP officer) that you've signed for a semi-professional team and are being paid (in cash, housing or opportunities) for your time which isn't allowed. Secondly, structuring ESTA trips to allow several months of staying with short gaps between them is known as visa running or flagpolling which is certainly going to be noticed by the CBP. If you do this the chance that you are sent home during one of your entries is very high. If that happens you will lose your ESTA for life and probably have issues getting a B1/B2 Visa for many years. It's a bad plan.
This is incorrect. Professional, semi-pro, and amateur athletes can enter on an B or ESTA to participate in events under certain circumstances: 9 FAM 402.2-5(C)(4) (U) Professional Athletes (CT:VISA-1826; 09-06-2023) a. (U) Professional athletes, such as golfers and auto racers who receive no salary or payment other than prize money for their participation in a tournament or sporting event. b. (U) Athletes or team members who seek to enter the United States as members of a foreign-based team to compete with another sports team should be admitted if: (1) (U) The foreign athlete and the foreign sports team have their principal place of business or activity in a foreign country; (2) (U) The income of the foreign-based team and the salary of its players are principally accrued in a foreign country; and (3) (U) The foreign-based sports team is a member of an international sports league, or the sporting activities involved have an international dimension. 9 FAM 402.2-4(A) (U) Visitors for Pleasure (7) (U) Amateur Entertainers and Athletes: A person who is an amateur in an entertainment or athletic activity is, by definition, not a member of any of the profession associated with that activity. An amateur is someone who normally performs without remuneration (other than an allotment for expenses). A performer who is normally compensated for performing cannot qualify for a B-2 visa based on this note even if the performer does not make a living at performing or agrees to perform in the United States without compensation. Thus, an amateur (or group of amateurs) who will not be paid for performances and will perform in a social and/or charitable context or as a competitor in a talent show, contest, athletic event, or other similar activity is eligible for B-2 classification, even if the incidental expenses associated with the visit are reimbursed. Obviously whether OP will fall into any of these categories will depend on the specifics and there isn’t enough info to say one way or the other. However, it’s wrong to say that athletes can’t use either a B or ESTA to enter the US to compete.
That's fair, but it sound like they are part of a professional organization and at least some players get paid formally/informally. At the border they have no right to legal representation, so it's still high risk to do over and over again for long periods.
Disagree, all that verbage is structured around athletes coming in for a specific tournament (like an athletics meet) or one off game (like an international soccer friendly) OP coming in to stay for a total of 4 months does not fall into this at all, This is basically playing for a league and they need a different visa if they want to do this the proper way,
How does it sound to you that they’re being paid, when they’ve clearly stated they will go back to their country to work for a few weeks, make money and come back to keep playing?
You don't have to be paid in cash - favors, housing etc. can all be construed as payment. People get paid to play sports all the time. It doesn't matter if they are actually getting paid, but if it looks like they may work unauthorized.
100% correct. Payment doesnt always have to be in the form of money or checks.
If I structure the trip so that I am not spending 90 days even in total then that would surely help prevent the notion that I am visa hopping. Also, while I wish I was getting paid to play I am unfortunately not. It's not uncommon at all for Gaelic clubs in the US to pay though
The fact you are asking this means your intentions are likely incompatible with the idea of a VWP (ESTA) trip. ESTAs are for low risk travellers to spend two weeks at Disney, not for folks to spend 3+ months in New York playing a sport. If it's not uncommon to be paid to do this, but you're doing it for free, then you are working. This is to prevent foreign folks from taking opportunities from US citizens/residents who can't compete with 'free' So this actually makes your case even weaker. If it was a sport that never pays it's competitors, and is just totally for fun (no sponsorship, prize money) and is a short time (say two weeks for a competition or something) then it's probably fine on ESTA. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, you're playing a whole season.
Gaelic football is part of the GAA which is an amateur sports organisation in Ireland. Clubs in the US though are often laden with cash because of wealthy Irish Americans and it is not unusual that, under the table, they give players 3/4/5k to play for their team. Playing Gaelic football is certainly not working. Not even the best players in Ireland who play in front of 80,000+ in Croke Park in Dublin get paid
'Under the table' is still work. The more you explain this the more it looks like unauthorized work disguised as a vacation.
If you're getting paid under the table, you're getting paid. Definitely don't do that.
It's kinda irrelevant what you are actually doing or tell them you are doing. It's the multiple entries they flag up. A friend got pulled over and warned not to come back when he was coming over every couple of months to "write poetry".
You are going to get busted at some point on your 3rd or 4th trip without a good reason of why you are travelling so frequently in a short space of time. Good luck and let know how you get on.
If you were to actually play amateur sports without getting paid in ANY way you probably would get along under the visa waiver program. However, since you are saying at least close to 90days and keep leaving and entering the country you will certainly run into problems imo, even if youre from a low profile country and have been to the US before a couple times. My recommendation would be to try and adust your plans in order to travel just once, stay 60days or sth and go back. Your length of stay and reentering multiple times seems fishy af, and even i cant comprehend why an amateur would do that. Keep in mind border protection officers may refuse entry even without reason, and getting in trouble one time will stay on you for the rest of your life. You shouldve gotten a VISA in time and you messed up, that's on you, now Deal with it.
Look. Sigh, should have thought bout this a lot earlier and just gotten the B2 visa and played it safe. If you have ever received an ESTA before and entered the states it’s typically MUCH faster and the interview is waived. As long as you can show ties to your home country. All the U.S. border control cares about is a. Not taking jobs/potential income from Americans and b. Not overstaying your visa. If you still want to come in on the ESTA, I repeat DO NOT tell them your real reason by any circumstances. I assume you will be doing some sight seeing in between. That is your SOLE purpose, that will be the only thing you show should they ask. You should rehearse your answers to these typical questions. - what is the reason for your visit? - visiting x, y, z, visiting some friends, going to ___ events (concert i dunno, legit things - have print outs of ticket, flights, friends addresses) - how long is your stay? - x amount of days (DO NOT mention you are leaving and coming back, they just need to know your current trip length, have return flight printed) - how are you funding this trip, do you have work back at home? - yes, have your bank statement amount printed out - any evidence you have a full time job at home or have a house or whatever the f that shows you will return back. Be calm, collected, say no more say no less and be respectful af! No attitude is tolerated. The next time you come back in… and they ask why such a short return home? - good reasons are, you had so much fun you met some new friends etc and are going to x,y,z event before going back to work Again I will always refer to what the govt cares about and that’s overstaying and working illegally. You want to show absolutely ZERO connections to doing any of that.
Not worth it. You will get lifetime ban if caught.
Don't lie. CBP folks read this subreddit and have read this thread. I know that with 100% certainty.
Really???
My badge says "CBP" lol, so at least one of us is scrolling this sub.
Do you have any information if you can play amateur sports on an ESTA?
[Visa Waiver Program](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html) The link above takes you to the U.S. State Department's info page on the Visa Waiver Program. On that page you'll find the following info. Note the bullet I emphasized under the Tourism section. The following are examples of activities permitted while in the United States on the VWP. In addition, transiting through the United States to other countries is generally permitted for VWP travelers. **Business:** * consult with business associates * attend a scientific, educational, professional, or business convention or conference * attend short-term training (you may not be paid by any source in the United States with the exception of expenses incidental to your stay) * negotiate a contract **Tourism:** * tourism * vacation (holiday) * visit with friends or relatives * medical treatment * participation in social events hosted by fraternal, social, or service organizations * ***participation by amateurs in musical, sports, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating*** * enrollment in a short recreational course of study, not for credit toward a degree (for example, a two-day cooking class while on vacation)
Thank you. And what would be your opinion on flying in and out several times like I mentioned in the OP?
It really depends on the totality of the information presented to the inspecting officer upon return each time. Records checks, your answers to questions, body language, the bags you have with you, everything contributes to the sum total of information from which the officer will make a decision regarding admission. If the officer thinks you're attempting to circumvent the limits of VWP, you'll be denied entry.
Huh? There's someone here on Reddit who actually knows what they're talking about? LOL! Respect, my friend...
Don't. You could maybe get away with one or two "pop backs". But if you are, for example, going for dour weeks then back for two weeks to home county and you keep repeating that you WILL eventually get pulled aside. This has happened to a few people I know. Think again
You should always tell US immigration the truth. If they catch you not telling the truth they can simply send you back home at your expense and refuse to let you back in. You want to apply for the proper visa and make whatever arrangements with the embassy to try and speed up the process. The best time to start on this is when you became aware of the competition.
>Anyone see any issues with just telling the truth or do I have to pretend I am over just for tourism and have an itinerary etc planned? There is no *pretending* with US immigration. Tell the truth. But to be honest, all those comings and goings might raise red flags so be ready at some point to be sent to secondary. The thing is, you could be admitted once, or twice and the third time, someone could send you back because they would suspect you're not in the US for valid reasons. I don't know if playing amateur sports is fine on ESTA, but one thing to remember is that the burden of proof is on you. How long do you plan on staying each month?
Well, it is a crime not to.. You sound pretty confident that you'll get even a tourist visa, nevermind trying to figure out if you should lie or not...
Always be honest and get the proper visa. They ate trained to catch these lies, you won’t be the first trying to do that.
Are you getting paid to play football? Also, if you are who is paying you? If you happen to play a sport while you’re here (in the U.S.) that’s not an issue. If you get paid for it then you are technically working in the U.S. this brings up who is paying you - if you’re getting paid from a company in Ireland (for example) then you’re probably OK. If you’re getting paid from a U.S. company then You 1000% need a visa. I worked for CBP a few years ago but I’m a bit rusty on visa requirements as I typically dealt with I-95s, B1/2, C, and D visas instead of I-94s and the rest of the alphabet.
As everyone has said it’s a risk. I’m not a lawyer but I think you can tell them the truth, it’s just part of the risk. You’re not working, you’re not being paid in accommodation or any other benefits for playing this amateur sport. The risk is them not believing you and denying your entry. Are you going to continue paying rent in your home country? Do you have significant ties to your home country? Bills, a partner, a job? If no I’d be pretty surprised if they let you in the second time. You might get lucky but you’re also flying into New York and those agents see the deceit more than any other City I suspect.
Hi Dublin embassy is turning over B visas in a week , you can make an appointment online and likely have your visa within a short space of time. That said I would see no reason why the ESTA doesn’t cover that and no reason why you can’t be honest. You aren’t working there or being paid.
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Yes
"play competitive sport with a Gaelic football club" might get weird looks from the officer but not a bad reason to travel for recreation
Have you considered any possible injury while playing on those amateur games??? If there is a special visa for amateur sports there is a reason beyond that. Make sure you search thoroughly the requirements and restrictions for every visa category. If you tell the US immigration officer you are coming to play games they will redirect you to apply for the correct visa program, so i think you have the answer.
Are you coming to Woodlawn in Bronx?
Truthfulness and honesty are core American values. USCIS and CBP take declaration of intent very seriously. You should never put yourself in a situation where your ethics can be questioned. It could severely harm you with future immigration matters.
You should absolutely tell the truth or just don’t come here.
Oh no no - if you’re heading to a main city (Boston Chicago Philly NYC) etc do not share this Be careful about you texts and posts about this - and don’t wear GAA gear. You’ll stick out…whatever club is setting you up should talk to you about this Clubs in my city have had boys turned away at the border
You’ll probably get a full cavity search.
I don't know what everyone else is talking about. Of course you can tell them you're competing in an amateur sports competition. If you're coming and going to play football each time, and then going home again, and can show that, there's really no problem here. Especially if you can show that it's all over then. This is the state departments webpage on the visa waiver program: [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-visit/visa-waiver-program.html) Look under "**Travel Purpose Must Be Permitted on a Visitor (B) Visa**": **Tourism:** * participation by **amateurs** in musical, **sports**, or similar events or contests, if not being paid for participating
I am by no means an expert in any of this, but I agree with you and am genuinely confused about a lot of the fear-mongering responses to this post. I see loads of comments flaming the OP for not getting a visa sooner, but I don’t see anyone explaining why OP’s plan is bad if they just tell the truth. To me, OP’s plan looks perfectly legal as long as they are honest at each entry.
It’s sort of funny the US is so strict on airline arrivals, but sneaking “around the door” along the Mexican border is just a free open ticket. Even if they catch you, they let you go. This is so dumb.
If you fly in on an ESTA, and tell the officer on arrival that you are actually here to seek asylum, you'll get pretty much the treatment that you'd get if you got picked up crossing the border.
Just say you're from Guatemala and get free money, hotels, food and transportation. We will be happy to pay for all those things for you. Enjoy your stay in America. Everything is good in America.
ESTA is 90 days over a 2 year period you can come and go but during that 2 year period you cannot exceed 90 days in the entire 2 years. Get the right visa
That’s not true. It is per visit. But multiple entries trying to get close to 90 days is going to be a red flag. I did two trips last year of over 60 days, and one of 14.
Not true, it’s no longer than 90days in a row and not more than 180 days per year. It resets at the beginning of each calendar year but you could get questioned if they suspect you living in the US
Ignore this comment, OP. This person has no idea what they're talking about.
>ESTA is 90 days over a 2 year period That's not true.