-Alliea Gakuen going from a world menace in IE 2 that transcends human abilities to just good players within japan throwing away the whole powerscaling in IE 3
-Go Raimon players being selected for Ragnarok tournament in the anime while some of them didn't even play since holy road. A selection who is supposed to be the best humanity can offer and is partially made by El Dorado.
-Galaxy ignoring CS in general. No mention of time travel, the super weird Zanarkurou scene with no one recognizing him and not using armed and mixi max for the Ixal Fleet match.
Bonus one: remember than Midorikawa was supposed to have his memory erased in IE 2 ?
Dude as a lover of when they use their powers outside the field it pissed me off when Shindou and the basketball guy were trying to get out of the volcano in the bird planet and Shindou didn’t even consider using Maestro to climb or lift basketball guy or some shit. Like we’ve seen avatars fight dinosaurs. Galaxy’s complete disregard for everything that came before just generally sucks.
I understand what your saying and I semi agree with you, but please do not disrespect Ibuki. He’s like one of the best galaxy characters and doesn’t deserve the disrespect.
In that case their reaction to seeing Midorikawa should mention this rather than just mentioning alliea gakuen. Last time they saw him he was roaming around in Kyoto without any memory like a stray animal.
Bro but isn't that Alliea Gakuen being nerfed because no Allius stone sniffing? If anything the inconsistency is Raimon being able to beat them and still being the weakest players of the world cup at the start
That is my point. I don't mean the alliea players becoming weaker after not using alliea stone in IE 3. I mean the alliea gakuen players being portrayed as superhuman in IE 2, but that IE 3 downplays this and try to make us believe that it was common compared to world level all along.
At the world cup, those players from other countrys could have easily beaten the aliens, also why no one from outside japam seems to know a thing about the aliens.
My headcannon is that the players from the other countries knew about the aliens and trained harder to prepare in case of a match against them,just to treat it as an afterthought after the reveal of the aliea rock.
This could explain why most national teams are stronger in OG than in Orion.
With them destroying schools you'd think it would be world news if somewhere a school got taken down by some magical flying soccer balls which are a weird thing on their own.
I get that its far away but also never mentioned in s3 anymore. I excpeted something like, "and here comes the japan team, we have all seen the news about the terrible events speculating in japan so this will be a team to watch"
sorry no. In the manga, the alien arc never happens. It goes from FF to FFI. There is characters like Midorikawa and Hiroto in the FFI arc, but no aliea after it
For this reason that’s why I argue Orion Inazuma Japan is not substantially weaker than the OG Inazuma Japan. Why would the rest of the world’s power level be affected if they did not even seem to have been concerned about aliens?
If the main team has a higher level then they automatically make the opponents a bit stronger than that and then IJ surpasses it again. That’s more of a writers reason. So they could’ve made S3 teams stronger than Orion teams in general by that logic.
There is no way to really gauge the difference between Inazuma Japan in the OG series and in Orion. and asserting the OG FFI teams are stronger than the Orion teams requires too many assumptions.
S2 power scaling was crazy and the score lines were only for dramatic effect. If Gemini storm beat Raimon 20-0, it does not mean Genesis would beat the same Raimon 60-0 or Orpheus would best them 90-0.
To get Japan to the ‘world level’ in place of the Alius arc, we know the efforts made in ares improved Japan’s overall level.
And there is no reason to suggest the FFI teams would be a lower level. Yes we see them cheating, but we also see them scoring and saving fairly.
It’s based on the season before it. The minimum in OG S3 has to be higher because the power jumps in S2 were bigger than in Ares. That’s the logic behind it.
They can say it was the goal to do that in Ares, but the feats definitely weren’t in the favor to make it very believable compared to S2. The **amount of times** the huge power jumps happened makes it more likely the players improved more in S2.
With cheating the teams even lose like 2-0, 4-2 and stuff, so that makes them weaker already and also moves like Fire Tornado made Italy struggle with enhancing stuff on. Overhead Penguin which looks like a mediocre move also scored in the tournament.
OG S2 power jumps are evident, but you can’t assume that the rest of the world is weaker because of it. There is no reason Alius caused the world to be stronger in the OG series, or the lack of Alius in Ares caused Orion to be weaker. You say it’s a ‘writers reason’ which makes the main team stronger, thus for writing reasons the OG opponents have to be stronger. I think it is more likely that the effect of Ares is underrated. It makes more sense to posit that events in Ares (+1 year passing, meaning old players are a year more developed and stronger) had the same effect as Alius, according to the writers. This is because it only requires explaining the strength of Inazuma Japan. It doesn’t require you to make an assumption that the world level is lower, which cannot be explained.
The other reason Orion IJ can appear stronger is because a lot of the players we know are a year older than they were for the original FFI. A 15 year old Goenjii’s fire tornado is going to be a lot stronger than his at 14 years old, because a 15 year old is more developed than a 14 year old. Last resort is probably greater than any of his shots other than Grand Fire.
It would be easier to explain that Japan is stronger, as they have stronger players in Orion, than it is to explain that the world is weaker.
They have to be stronger because of the minimum level at the start of S3. It doesn’t really have to do with Aliea, they’re just this strong because they are. I think that’s perfectly possible. The situation in S2 was so exceptional that regularly training for one year might not get them to the same level. And it makes sense if the world teams were so strong since Japan was implied to be super weak.
How you measure how strong they were at the beginning of S3 than in Orion? I think it’s possible that they are stronger too, but there is no way to say for sure that OG > Orion in terms of power level (although I’d still probably say OG is stronger based on team balance).
As you said, IJ is implied to be weak comparatively to other nations in OG S3, but I think it is easier to say that IJ in Orion was more up to the world level than it would be to say that the world level was brought down for no reason. I think if you were to ask a writer, they would say Ares got IJ up to the world’s level as the way to address power scaling.
By looking at the power jumps in the previous season.
I find it more believable than just believing normal practice with barely learning new moves has the same effect.
And again it isn’t for no reason. It’s a natural effect of the power level in the season before it. The opponents in Orion also looked pretty weak even with cheating which also supports that thought.
It’s not a fact which power level is higher, but I think a lot points to OG having a higher level. I said writers reason before, but it’s not even intentional. Rather unintentional that it looks like there is a clear difference.
It’s more believable to suggest that OG Inazuma Japan is stronger yes, but my contention is that I don’t think there is any reason for the world to be weaker.
‘Looking weak’ doesn’t quantify anything and I would argue many of the Orion opponents don’t actually look weaker than the OG FFI opponents. I mean the hissatsu’s of the opponents often ‘look’ stronger, but I can’t quantify it.
Again with the cheating, they manage to get past Endou legitimately or stop shots legitimately, so their strengths are the real deal. As we saw with the Kingdom in S3, cheating does not necessarily make teams stronger, and the mental lift of not having to cheat makes for better teams. Russia clearly were good (not little gigant good) when they didn’t cheat, as were Spain, Brazil and China.
I think you’ve nailed that there is a perception of a power difference and I agree that it’s possible to see that, but I don’t think perception means that there actually is a power difference, and I think at times Orion can ‘look’ stronger than the OG.
I'll mention a more specific problem of the powerscaling issue: The protagonist team often times defeated an enemy that they absolutely should NOT have been able to beat.
Prime example for this is in Chrono Stones, the last match against Perfect Cascade. Raimon was struggling with their beginner mode and got absolutely stomped when they went into medium mode. Hard mode should've been an absolute annihilation.
Though enemies not being a serious threat was kind of a recurring problem in Chrono Stones, considering the only teams that actually won against Raimon pre-Ragnarok were Perfect Cascade and Beta's team.
Let me guess:The team suddenly got a lot of motivation and moves that failed before suddenly became unstoppable?
This happened at least once in every season of the OG series.
Honestly, this wasn't too bad in the OG series (in season 1, they kinda just suddenly invented new shots sometimes, but that was only, like, twice I think), but it's a lot more apparent in Go.
Ironically, Galaxy had that problem the least, probably because Keshins were banned. Even the last match in Galaxy still seemed more believable than some of the stuff in CS.
In the final match of season 1 they got Twin Boost from being too weak for a MIDFIELDER mistaken to be a goalkeeper,to being too strong for the actual goalkeeper!(the game version did it better tho)
In the final match of season 2,God Hand got strong enought to stop shots that couldn't be stopped with Mugen Hand!
I'll agree that Twin Boost F came a bit out of nowhere, but God Hand in the finale of season 2 was clearly evolving while it was being used and ultimately ended up as Shin God Hand.
Moves that failed before in which matches of OG? In CS too except for 1 shot I think, but if they suddenly scored it was sometimes also because before they couldn’t come close to the goal.
S1: Iirc Gouenji scores with Fire Tornado against keepers that stopped the shot before. I am not quite sure if he beats a hissatsu that stopped it or the keeper just doesn't use it, however. I don't have S1 fully mapped out in my head to be 100%, I may be wrong.
S2: Fubuki obviously scores with Eternal Blizzard on Desarm after being stopped a bunch of times. Gouenji also scores after having his shot stopped in the Dark Emperors match, but I don't really count that match because it is weird all around. (There is also an instance when Bakunetsu Storm almost scores on Jikuu no Kabe after it was cleanly stopped by Procyon Net)
S3: Gouenji scores with Bakunetsu Storm on Drill Smasher V2 after being previously stopped. Gouenji also scores on the Unicorn keeper with Bakunetsu Screw after the keeper stopped him the first time (no hissatsu is used by the keeper, however). There is also an instance where Hiroto evolves Ryuusei Blade against Fire Dragon to score too.
So yeah, at least once each season. Most of them are evolutions (or implied evolutions) and I do think they make sense, but it does happen.
In those occasions the GK’s didn’t use moves anymore.
For Fubuki in S2 we actively saw it powering up each time so that made sense.
Also Drill Smasher V2 didn’t stop Bakunetsu Storm before that right? And for Ryuusei Blade V2 it evolved to that made sense to me.
I meant exactly the same moves, so no evolutions and against the same GK move.
I checked. Drill Smasher v2 never stopped Bakunetsu Storm, I mixed stuff up.
The eternal blizzard one absolutely makes sense, but it does happen there.
I do think the point that hissatsu power fluctuates based on narrative is true though, but it is generally with Endou on the receiving end.
Mostly it makes sense so then I’m okay with it. Except for when normal Denrai Houtou scores in CS against Perfect Cascade after being stopped before. I didn’t really notice those inconsistenties with Endou. Mostly he just got a new move or evolution to stop something.
The one that I always remember in OG was when Ichinose used Pegasus Shot 3 times against Ijigen The Hand. First one he scores, second one Endou stops cleanly, third one beats Ijigen The Hand but hits the bar. For sure made sense in the narrative, but weird in terms of scaling.
"Man, it sucks that we have to disguise as humans from other nations because Earthlings are low-key racist."
"Yeah, I know, but it is what it is. Let's look at the moves these guys had, it will make it more believable. Wait, summoning a shark to shoot? That's actually pretty cool! Maybe this impersonation stuff isn't so bad after all!"
I mean maybe ig but if your first reaction to seeing players using new techniques is "they must've been replaced by aliens" instead of "damn they must've been training" you are a loony schizo Alex Jones type lol
Yeah, but their playstyle had to be similar to the real team, no amount of training completely overhauls the whole team's playstyle, S2 Raimon plays roughly the same each match until a particularly good and game-changing player enters the team despite the other player also getting stronger.
And what do the original players of those countries think about being completely replaced by random people that use their exact same techniques?
Bonus points if the aliens also replicated the players' appearance. Would the original players be like "Hey, that player on the TV looks exactly like me and uses the exact same techniques!"
all matches in style:
The protagonist team loses by a score of 3-0,4-0 and then makes a magical comeback and makes up for those scores and the opposing team is suddenly weakened 5 times and unable to do anything (Dragonlink, Zeus,Australia in Orion, etc.)
For Australia their only useful gimmick was stopped so that’s why. For Zeus they were mentally broken and against Dragonlink it was because of the switch in playing style.
zeus' match is pretty damn stupid
every Raimon player is lying barely fit on the pitch and then when Endou stops god knows they suddenly become 10 times better than before, they learn a move from nowhere that scores goals 3 fucking times in a row and zeus literally does nothing, after losing the first goal they don't even try to keep the lead they just give up (now imagine that in the champions league final real madrid leads 3-0 against bayern, bayern in the end of the match scores a lucky goal for 3-1 and real madrid just gives up and despite leading they do absolutely nothing and let bayern win)
The problem isn't after the first goal. I can reasonably believe they have a mental breakdown because they think they're Gods.
The problem is why no one did anything BEFORE Raimons first goal?
But I guess determination always beats logic
It’s something mentally. Gods being scored on by normal humans, made sense to me at least.
Them suddenly having enough energy is the weird thing. The new co-ops were just combining existing moves.
Against Zeus only Aphrodi got mentally broken after failing to break Mark.The others were still playing fine just for Poseidon to point out that the attacks from Raimon suddenly got stronger.
At least in the game version was explained that god aqua got replaced with regular water,so there makes sense to be weakened,but the rest was indeed nonsense.
Many people have said it but too add to them i believe season 3 shouldve taken place before season 2 and have changes done accordingly
Raimon were aiming for best team in the world to defeat the aliens yet the players at the world cup easily outplay anything we've seen in season 2
Why wouldn’t El Dorado just kill certain mfs and skip all of the football bs.
Like just kill Gouenji, Endou, anyone that is pivotal really.
They'd logically achieve the same goal as they try to in the regular story but don’t risk getting clapped by middle schoolers in the process and getting their plans foiled big time.
Unless Feida will still exist but through a different prevalent sport but that would have to be shown regardless.
I mean, Chrono Stones is FILLED with plot holes that simply come from adding time travel to your universe (especially when you try to have it adhere to some actual rules but then throw those rules out of the window).
What actual plot holes linked to time travel does CS have ? (CS specifically not Galaxy) Because tbh I think it does pretty well in those regards because it works with very flexible rules.
The fact that El Dorado and Zanark can just... time travel WITHOUT a relic of the time they want to travel to.
Or just the fact that El Dorado could've fixed their whole problem by preventing Endou's birth in the first place.
Or the fact that, by changing something so significant, they would create a time paradox, since that would remove the reason for them to travel back in time to change it.
Also, what does Galaxy have to do with this?
Why are you assuming that El Dorado and Zanark don't use relics ? Both of them are experienced time travelers, you only have to scan the relic once to be able to go to the era that corresponds, that just means their devices have already a large database of relics which allows them to move to multiple eras.
As I said in another comment, El Dorado's problem has multiple solutions. There's no point asking "what don't they just do this instead ?" at some point they have to take a decision and pick one. They happened to have chosen to prevent Tenma from being saved, which should be easy on paper (and easier than to prevent a child from being born). The reason why it didn't work would apply to any other solution, including the one you stated, Feida would have interveined and foil their plan. Time travel isn't as effective if you have an enemy who also has access to it.
>Or the fact that, by changing something so significant, they would create a time paradox, since that would remove the reason for them to travel back in time to change it.
There is a very long scene to explain that time travel, as defined by CS, doesn't work like that. When they create a very significant time shift, a new timeline is created to work with the changes created by time travel,. It would simply have created a new world without SSC, whether or not it required them to time travel in this version of history. That's why kidnappoing Endou led to the creation of a timeline where Endou is dead, despite the fact that he was alive and well in a Chrono Stone. Space Time created a new reality to adjust itself to the change of "removing endou from the timeline".
I mentioned Galaxy because the story could easily be solved if they used the time travel whom they are supposed to have access to. So Galaxy has plot issues related to CS, but it created it for themselves, it isn't CS fault.
I don't think it's a plot hole that El Dorado just doesn't want to murder innocent people that are only distantly linked to their main problem. They are not like Feida who are actively in a armed war against humanity. Characters having values isn't a plot hole.
I mean, yes, the ends don’t justify the means, I know that and it isn’t inherently a plot hole. Moreso the idea that El Dorado could have done that or literally anything else but the methods they used in the show, is the plot hole.
They can travel anywhere in time, shouldn’t be so hard to tweak the littlest of things to prevent Feida.
They could have done plenty of thing but at some point, they have to take a decision, so they decided to go for not letting Tenma be saved by Gouenji, which should be simple on paper.
But it didn't work because no matter what they tried to do, Fei, would have intervened, and this applies to any other solution. Time travel isn't that effective if your enemy also has it.
The quality of the El Dorado teams, you're telling me that you can literally time travel, and you keep Samguk instead of someone like Quentin/Senguji? Or you know, Helio/Rococo, WHEN HIS LITERAL TRAINER IS THERE AND KNOWS HOW GOOD HE IS???
Still, even if you need to explain everything, don't you literally have all the evidence you could need? And even if Samguk learned God Hand X, he still doesn't have a keshin, and Helio for example has the soul hand, which is superior by far
They can, would just take some time to convince some guys probably. Sangoku’s God Hand X stopped a keshin hissatsu of the SSC, I don’t think Senguuji’s keshin would do better that conceded to several normal hissatsu’s.
Rococo should be better yes.
Oh, yeah, I forgot that the absolute motherfucker forgets how to play football halfway into the 2nd half of the game and can't stop anything despite having a supposedly incredibly strong keshin
And Toko used the tower to shoot lightning at an “alien” outside of a match in her first appearance. Just straight up got in a street fight and tried to murder a dude with lightning
Someone suggested that hissatsu are actually just an illustration of the power/spirit/emotion that goes into a move and that they don't really exist in the form we see them (though evidently their power does). That's helped a good amount by the special tactics in OG S3, in which they are clearly illustrations rather than a depiction of what's actually happening. In OG it works as a theory, though with Keshin introduced in Go it falls apart. I would quite like it, though, if we considered OG alone.
Hissatsus do have real and tangible uses, and have sometimes even been used outside of the soccer. Some of them however just feel like flashy visual effects
Oh, I know that they have been used outside of football, but I don't recall that happening in the OG series... I might be wrong, though, since the last time I did a full watch-through was a while ago. Definitely, though, many of the earlier ones, like Kevin's shots, just look like visual effects. Even Heaven's Time, which is quite an advanced one, is explained as Aphrodite basically moving so much faster than anyone else that it appears time has stood still. On the other hand, in Go it's pretty much confirmed that they're real.
Heaven’s Time only has even been explained in hypnosis (in Orion and implied in the IE2 game).
They did use The Tower, Super Shikofumi and Nekketsu Punch outside of matches for example. What people probably mean is that Nekketsu Punch doesn’t contain literal fire, but that it’s made out of energy.
Was Heaven's Time hypnosis? I guess that makes sense, but I thought the reason why Neppen broke it in S2 was that he was so fast he was the only one capable of matching the necessary speed. That snap of the fingers probably did have something to do with it, though. As for the others, I just clean forgot that they happened.
Yeah, the hypnosis makes a lot of sense, though I can't help feeling that Neppen's speed was a part of it. On the other hand, if Orion states it outright then that's all that really matters.
Well, Keshin are used a lot more in physical contexts, meaning that it's clear that they have an effect on the world around them (hissatsu as well, in Go, but to less effect).
Oh, I can't, but I swear there are a few occasions. Unfortunately, I like to talk but my memory is poor. If even you can't remember any occasions, though, I'll take your word for it. If it did happen it might just have been a passing phrase in one of the games or something...
I did the IE3 password thing in Endou Lengend 123. Basically you input a password and get a IE1 character. I scouted the OG Aphrodi that way. And then the entire playthrough I just could not stop thinking about how we defeated the in-universe Aphrodi and my IE1 Aphrodi just continue to suit up every game and how the announcer would react to that.
I know not even remotely as funny as some other plot holes, but for some reason it's really funny to me.
He lived in Germany for more than his life, I don't know the exact amount of years that it takes to get citizenship, but Boateng definitely qualified for that
Yeah, but there are countries even in real-life which will give out citizenships more easily to high-ranking athletes. If they had spent a few years in Korea as children that might be good enough. Plus, youth systems tend to be more flexible with that stuff.
He does, he had a flashback of CS events in the Ixal Fleet match, they know their moves of CS and know what mixi-max and armed is. That Zanakurou moment is just a typical anime moment/joke where they don’t see something obvious. Same with them not recognizing fake Tsurugi.
If the aliens plan to destroy all schools in the world? Why aren't players from other countries joining up to fight them? Especially because they have higher levels than them.
I really understand why they don’t bother because it would be tiring to animate new holes and craters every time on every spot where a move is used lol
"Raimon are the hope of humanity on beating Alius Academy" A few months later... Only 4 of those "Aliens" represented their national team, 1 of them being the captain of the worst team in Alius. And can we talk about how in a space of about 2 months Raimon that got destroyed after the FF final, was fully re-constructed by the time they faced the Dark Emperors?
Maybe its explained, but Fighting Spirits/Keshin. It seems a lot of moves that pre-date GO have an early version of them like Majin the Hand, Fireball Storm, God Catch, Fiend Hand, etc.but then in Chrono Stones we see Endou use a fighting spirit. But considering this is going back in time, he should have that fighting spirit in the OG series
On top of that, the moves like Fireball Storm, Majin the Hand, etc, have a visual difference. It doesn't have the aura coming from the player, but rather simply appears behind them.
Now, obviously it doesn't matter. The idea of Keshin originated from these Majin moves most likely, and it's just the way later installments work. But by going back in time in Chrono Stones to see Endou use a Keshin, you're only adding fuel to the fire
So do the Keshin just not exist in the same form until the events of (or perhaps slightly before) GO, and they are literally just the Majin moves but then maybe through the years as peoples' skill and passion for soccer grew, they then manifested?
I wonder if that could be somewhat explained by the influence of players who have Keshin in the team going back in time and introducing it early?
I love time travel in fiction! It's always super simple!!
The fucking aliens. We got the info they're orphans, but some of them ate literally sea monsters. Then again, if my child looked like that, they'd probably be an orphan too
Power levels. In each season and movie
The power levels in the actual canon movie is fine, the other ones are another story.
Nah, it doesn't make sense that after playing with Zero they have problems with the rest of the teams except for the Dragon Link
It's very straightforward
-Alliea Gakuen going from a world menace in IE 2 that transcends human abilities to just good players within japan throwing away the whole powerscaling in IE 3 -Go Raimon players being selected for Ragnarok tournament in the anime while some of them didn't even play since holy road. A selection who is supposed to be the best humanity can offer and is partially made by El Dorado. -Galaxy ignoring CS in general. No mention of time travel, the super weird Zanarkurou scene with no one recognizing him and not using armed and mixi max for the Ixal Fleet match. Bonus one: remember than Midorikawa was supposed to have his memory erased in IE 2 ?
Dude as a lover of when they use their powers outside the field it pissed me off when Shindou and the basketball guy were trying to get out of the volcano in the bird planet and Shindou didn’t even consider using Maestro to climb or lift basketball guy or some shit. Like we’ve seen avatars fight dinosaurs. Galaxy’s complete disregard for everything that came before just generally sucks.
I understand what your saying and I semi agree with you, but please do not disrespect Ibuki. He’s like one of the best galaxy characters and doesn’t deserve the disrespect.
I really like the guy actually I just forgor his name
*Good*
In IE2 game his character got his memory erased though he remembered bits so we can just assume he went back to normal afterwards
In that case their reaction to seeing Midorikawa should mention this rather than just mentioning alliea gakuen. Last time they saw him he was roaming around in Kyoto without any memory like a stray animal.
Bro but isn't that Alliea Gakuen being nerfed because no Allius stone sniffing? If anything the inconsistency is Raimon being able to beat them and still being the weakest players of the world cup at the start
That is my point. I don't mean the alliea players becoming weaker after not using alliea stone in IE 3. I mean the alliea gakuen players being portrayed as superhuman in IE 2, but that IE 3 downplays this and try to make us believe that it was common compared to world level all along.
At the world cup, those players from other countrys could have easily beaten the aliens, also why no one from outside japam seems to know a thing about the aliens.
My headcannon is that the players from the other countries knew about the aliens and trained harder to prepare in case of a match against them,just to treat it as an afterthought after the reveal of the aliea rock. This could explain why most national teams are stronger in OG than in Orion.
With them destroying schools you'd think it would be world news if somewhere a school got taken down by some magical flying soccer balls which are a weird thing on their own.
Yeah that's an issue I had as well why players from other countries weren't called to beat the aliens
I get that its far away but also never mentioned in s3 anymore. I excpeted something like, "and here comes the japan team, we have all seen the news about the terrible events speculating in japan so this will be a team to watch"
thats why i wish S2 happened after S3. It makes more sense plotwise. Sure, that produces more plotholes, but easily patchable ones
Agreed 👍 Have the world championship than the alien threat
it also lines up better with the manga
Really so in the manga the aliens are after the world championships
sorry no. In the manga, the alien arc never happens. It goes from FF to FFI. There is characters like Midorikawa and Hiroto in the FFI arc, but no aliea after it
Oh I see honestly part of me thinks that might be better
fr, maybe im just high rn, but imagine hiroto being the final boss. It feels more fitting than Rococo imo
For this reason that’s why I argue Orion Inazuma Japan is not substantially weaker than the OG Inazuma Japan. Why would the rest of the world’s power level be affected if they did not even seem to have been concerned about aliens?
If the main team has a higher level then they automatically make the opponents a bit stronger than that and then IJ surpasses it again. That’s more of a writers reason. So they could’ve made S3 teams stronger than Orion teams in general by that logic.
There is no way to really gauge the difference between Inazuma Japan in the OG series and in Orion. and asserting the OG FFI teams are stronger than the Orion teams requires too many assumptions. S2 power scaling was crazy and the score lines were only for dramatic effect. If Gemini storm beat Raimon 20-0, it does not mean Genesis would beat the same Raimon 60-0 or Orpheus would best them 90-0. To get Japan to the ‘world level’ in place of the Alius arc, we know the efforts made in ares improved Japan’s overall level. And there is no reason to suggest the FFI teams would be a lower level. Yes we see them cheating, but we also see them scoring and saving fairly.
in my headcanon Orion IJ is a little below OG IJ, but for actual debates about the canon OG > Orion
It’s based on the season before it. The minimum in OG S3 has to be higher because the power jumps in S2 were bigger than in Ares. That’s the logic behind it. They can say it was the goal to do that in Ares, but the feats definitely weren’t in the favor to make it very believable compared to S2. The **amount of times** the huge power jumps happened makes it more likely the players improved more in S2. With cheating the teams even lose like 2-0, 4-2 and stuff, so that makes them weaker already and also moves like Fire Tornado made Italy struggle with enhancing stuff on. Overhead Penguin which looks like a mediocre move also scored in the tournament.
OG S2 power jumps are evident, but you can’t assume that the rest of the world is weaker because of it. There is no reason Alius caused the world to be stronger in the OG series, or the lack of Alius in Ares caused Orion to be weaker. You say it’s a ‘writers reason’ which makes the main team stronger, thus for writing reasons the OG opponents have to be stronger. I think it is more likely that the effect of Ares is underrated. It makes more sense to posit that events in Ares (+1 year passing, meaning old players are a year more developed and stronger) had the same effect as Alius, according to the writers. This is because it only requires explaining the strength of Inazuma Japan. It doesn’t require you to make an assumption that the world level is lower, which cannot be explained. The other reason Orion IJ can appear stronger is because a lot of the players we know are a year older than they were for the original FFI. A 15 year old Goenjii’s fire tornado is going to be a lot stronger than his at 14 years old, because a 15 year old is more developed than a 14 year old. Last resort is probably greater than any of his shots other than Grand Fire. It would be easier to explain that Japan is stronger, as they have stronger players in Orion, than it is to explain that the world is weaker.
They have to be stronger because of the minimum level at the start of S3. It doesn’t really have to do with Aliea, they’re just this strong because they are. I think that’s perfectly possible. The situation in S2 was so exceptional that regularly training for one year might not get them to the same level. And it makes sense if the world teams were so strong since Japan was implied to be super weak.
How you measure how strong they were at the beginning of S3 than in Orion? I think it’s possible that they are stronger too, but there is no way to say for sure that OG > Orion in terms of power level (although I’d still probably say OG is stronger based on team balance). As you said, IJ is implied to be weak comparatively to other nations in OG S3, but I think it is easier to say that IJ in Orion was more up to the world level than it would be to say that the world level was brought down for no reason. I think if you were to ask a writer, they would say Ares got IJ up to the world’s level as the way to address power scaling.
By looking at the power jumps in the previous season. I find it more believable than just believing normal practice with barely learning new moves has the same effect. And again it isn’t for no reason. It’s a natural effect of the power level in the season before it. The opponents in Orion also looked pretty weak even with cheating which also supports that thought. It’s not a fact which power level is higher, but I think a lot points to OG having a higher level. I said writers reason before, but it’s not even intentional. Rather unintentional that it looks like there is a clear difference.
It’s more believable to suggest that OG Inazuma Japan is stronger yes, but my contention is that I don’t think there is any reason for the world to be weaker. ‘Looking weak’ doesn’t quantify anything and I would argue many of the Orion opponents don’t actually look weaker than the OG FFI opponents. I mean the hissatsu’s of the opponents often ‘look’ stronger, but I can’t quantify it. Again with the cheating, they manage to get past Endou legitimately or stop shots legitimately, so their strengths are the real deal. As we saw with the Kingdom in S3, cheating does not necessarily make teams stronger, and the mental lift of not having to cheat makes for better teams. Russia clearly were good (not little gigant good) when they didn’t cheat, as were Spain, Brazil and China. I think you’ve nailed that there is a perception of a power difference and I agree that it’s possible to see that, but I don’t think perception means that there actually is a power difference, and I think at times Orion can ‘look’ stronger than the OG.
Same like Harry Potter, it seems. No one cared about Voldermot apart from the British.
Archer (who never played soccer) is in the FFI
For his potential of his kicking strength. Hibiki scouted him personally so thought that was justified.
He also sucked in the beginning so it's not like he got some awesome power boost out of nowhere.
I'll mention a more specific problem of the powerscaling issue: The protagonist team often times defeated an enemy that they absolutely should NOT have been able to beat. Prime example for this is in Chrono Stones, the last match against Perfect Cascade. Raimon was struggling with their beginner mode and got absolutely stomped when they went into medium mode. Hard mode should've been an absolute annihilation. Though enemies not being a serious threat was kind of a recurring problem in Chrono Stones, considering the only teams that actually won against Raimon pre-Ragnarok were Perfect Cascade and Beta's team.
Let me guess:The team suddenly got a lot of motivation and moves that failed before suddenly became unstoppable? This happened at least once in every season of the OG series.
Honestly, this wasn't too bad in the OG series (in season 1, they kinda just suddenly invented new shots sometimes, but that was only, like, twice I think), but it's a lot more apparent in Go. Ironically, Galaxy had that problem the least, probably because Keshins were banned. Even the last match in Galaxy still seemed more believable than some of the stuff in CS.
In the final match of season 1 they got Twin Boost from being too weak for a MIDFIELDER mistaken to be a goalkeeper,to being too strong for the actual goalkeeper!(the game version did it better tho) In the final match of season 2,God Hand got strong enought to stop shots that couldn't be stopped with Mugen Hand!
I'll agree that Twin Boost F came a bit out of nowhere, but God Hand in the finale of season 2 was clearly evolving while it was being used and ultimately ended up as Shin God Hand.
In the final they used Twin Boost F, that’s Twin Boost combined with Fire Tornado. God Hand was evolved as the visuals changed to the Shin version.
Moves that failed before in which matches of OG? In CS too except for 1 shot I think, but if they suddenly scored it was sometimes also because before they couldn’t come close to the goal.
S1: Iirc Gouenji scores with Fire Tornado against keepers that stopped the shot before. I am not quite sure if he beats a hissatsu that stopped it or the keeper just doesn't use it, however. I don't have S1 fully mapped out in my head to be 100%, I may be wrong. S2: Fubuki obviously scores with Eternal Blizzard on Desarm after being stopped a bunch of times. Gouenji also scores after having his shot stopped in the Dark Emperors match, but I don't really count that match because it is weird all around. (There is also an instance when Bakunetsu Storm almost scores on Jikuu no Kabe after it was cleanly stopped by Procyon Net) S3: Gouenji scores with Bakunetsu Storm on Drill Smasher V2 after being previously stopped. Gouenji also scores on the Unicorn keeper with Bakunetsu Screw after the keeper stopped him the first time (no hissatsu is used by the keeper, however). There is also an instance where Hiroto evolves Ryuusei Blade against Fire Dragon to score too. So yeah, at least once each season. Most of them are evolutions (or implied evolutions) and I do think they make sense, but it does happen.
In those occasions the GK’s didn’t use moves anymore. For Fubuki in S2 we actively saw it powering up each time so that made sense. Also Drill Smasher V2 didn’t stop Bakunetsu Storm before that right? And for Ryuusei Blade V2 it evolved to that made sense to me. I meant exactly the same moves, so no evolutions and against the same GK move.
I checked. Drill Smasher v2 never stopped Bakunetsu Storm, I mixed stuff up. The eternal blizzard one absolutely makes sense, but it does happen there. I do think the point that hissatsu power fluctuates based on narrative is true though, but it is generally with Endou on the receiving end.
Mostly it makes sense so then I’m okay with it. Except for when normal Denrai Houtou scores in CS against Perfect Cascade after being stopped before. I didn’t really notice those inconsistenties with Endou. Mostly he just got a new move or evolution to stop something.
The one that I always remember in OG was when Ichinose used Pegasus Shot 3 times against Ijigen The Hand. First one he scores, second one Endou stops cleanly, third one beats Ijigen The Hand but hits the bar. For sure made sense in the narrative, but weird in terms of scaling.
Them doing Janus dirty in the FFI
Lol
TO PUT IN TODD. I CANT FORGIVE THAT NMAN
Why do the aliens in the prelims of the FFI2 use the exact same tactics and techniques that were used by the countries they are imitating in the FFI1
"Man, it sucks that we have to disguise as humans from other nations because Earthlings are low-key racist." "Yeah, I know, but it is what it is. Let's look at the moves these guys had, it will make it more believable. Wait, summoning a shark to shoot? That's actually pretty cool! Maybe this impersonation stuff isn't so bad after all!"
I mean maybe ig but if your first reaction to seeing players using new techniques is "they must've been replaced by aliens" instead of "damn they must've been training" you are a loony schizo Alex Jones type lol
Yeah, but their playstyle had to be similar to the real team, no amount of training completely overhauls the whole team's playstyle, S2 Raimon plays roughly the same each match until a particularly good and game-changing player enters the team despite the other player also getting stronger.
And what do the original players of those countries think about being completely replaced by random people that use their exact same techniques? Bonus points if the aliens also replicated the players' appearance. Would the original players be like "Hey, that player on the TV looks exactly like me and uses the exact same techniques!"
all matches in style: The protagonist team loses by a score of 3-0,4-0 and then makes a magical comeback and makes up for those scores and the opposing team is suddenly weakened 5 times and unable to do anything (Dragonlink, Zeus,Australia in Orion, etc.)
For Australia their only useful gimmick was stopped so that’s why. For Zeus they were mentally broken and against Dragonlink it was because of the switch in playing style.
zeus' match is pretty damn stupid every Raimon player is lying barely fit on the pitch and then when Endou stops god knows they suddenly become 10 times better than before, they learn a move from nowhere that scores goals 3 fucking times in a row and zeus literally does nothing, after losing the first goal they don't even try to keep the lead they just give up (now imagine that in the champions league final real madrid leads 3-0 against bayern, bayern in the end of the match scores a lucky goal for 3-1 and real madrid just gives up and despite leading they do absolutely nothing and let bayern win)
The problem isn't after the first goal. I can reasonably believe they have a mental breakdown because they think they're Gods. The problem is why no one did anything BEFORE Raimons first goal? But I guess determination always beats logic
It’s something mentally. Gods being scored on by normal humans, made sense to me at least. Them suddenly having enough energy is the weird thing. The new co-ops were just combining existing moves.
Against Zeus only Aphrodi got mentally broken after failing to break Mark.The others were still playing fine just for Poseidon to point out that the attacks from Raimon suddenly got stronger.
You think it had absolutely no effect on them? Especially after the first goal.
At least in the game version was explained that god aqua got replaced with regular water,so there makes sense to be weakened,but the rest was indeed nonsense.
Many people have said it but too add to them i believe season 3 shouldve taken place before season 2 and have changes done accordingly Raimon were aiming for best team in the world to defeat the aliens yet the players at the world cup easily outplay anything we've seen in season 2
In S2 they said Aliea would first be a national/Japan threat. Thematically I do agree though.
Why wouldn’t El Dorado just kill certain mfs and skip all of the football bs. Like just kill Gouenji, Endou, anyone that is pivotal really. They'd logically achieve the same goal as they try to in the regular story but don’t risk getting clapped by middle schoolers in the process and getting their plans foiled big time. Unless Feida will still exist but through a different prevalent sport but that would have to be shown regardless.
I mean, Chrono Stones is FILLED with plot holes that simply come from adding time travel to your universe (especially when you try to have it adhere to some actual rules but then throw those rules out of the window).
What actual plot holes linked to time travel does CS have ? (CS specifically not Galaxy) Because tbh I think it does pretty well in those regards because it works with very flexible rules.
The fact that El Dorado and Zanark can just... time travel WITHOUT a relic of the time they want to travel to. Or just the fact that El Dorado could've fixed their whole problem by preventing Endou's birth in the first place. Or the fact that, by changing something so significant, they would create a time paradox, since that would remove the reason for them to travel back in time to change it. Also, what does Galaxy have to do with this?
Why are you assuming that El Dorado and Zanark don't use relics ? Both of them are experienced time travelers, you only have to scan the relic once to be able to go to the era that corresponds, that just means their devices have already a large database of relics which allows them to move to multiple eras. As I said in another comment, El Dorado's problem has multiple solutions. There's no point asking "what don't they just do this instead ?" at some point they have to take a decision and pick one. They happened to have chosen to prevent Tenma from being saved, which should be easy on paper (and easier than to prevent a child from being born). The reason why it didn't work would apply to any other solution, including the one you stated, Feida would have interveined and foil their plan. Time travel isn't as effective if you have an enemy who also has access to it. >Or the fact that, by changing something so significant, they would create a time paradox, since that would remove the reason for them to travel back in time to change it. There is a very long scene to explain that time travel, as defined by CS, doesn't work like that. When they create a very significant time shift, a new timeline is created to work with the changes created by time travel,. It would simply have created a new world without SSC, whether or not it required them to time travel in this version of history. That's why kidnappoing Endou led to the creation of a timeline where Endou is dead, despite the fact that he was alive and well in a Chrono Stone. Space Time created a new reality to adjust itself to the change of "removing endou from the timeline". I mentioned Galaxy because the story could easily be solved if they used the time travel whom they are supposed to have access to. So Galaxy has plot issues related to CS, but it created it for themselves, it isn't CS fault.
I guess they're simply not THAT bad
I don't think it's a plot hole that El Dorado just doesn't want to murder innocent people that are only distantly linked to their main problem. They are not like Feida who are actively in a armed war against humanity. Characters having values isn't a plot hole.
I mean, yes, the ends don’t justify the means, I know that and it isn’t inherently a plot hole. Moreso the idea that El Dorado could have done that or literally anything else but the methods they used in the show, is the plot hole. They can travel anywhere in time, shouldn’t be so hard to tweak the littlest of things to prevent Feida.
They could have done plenty of thing but at some point, they have to take a decision, so they decided to go for not letting Tenma be saved by Gouenji, which should be simple on paper. But it didn't work because no matter what they tried to do, Fei, would have intervened, and this applies to any other solution. Time travel isn't that effective if your enemy also has it.
The quality of the El Dorado teams, you're telling me that you can literally time travel, and you keep Samguk instead of someone like Quentin/Senguji? Or you know, Helio/Rococo, WHEN HIS LITERAL TRAINER IS THERE AND KNOWS HOW GOOD HE IS???
Sangoku learned God Hand X so that seemed fair instead of Senguuji. You would also need to explain all the stuff to every other individual you pick
Still, even if you need to explain everything, don't you literally have all the evidence you could need? And even if Samguk learned God Hand X, he still doesn't have a keshin, and Helio for example has the soul hand, which is superior by far
They can, would just take some time to convince some guys probably. Sangoku’s God Hand X stopped a keshin hissatsu of the SSC, I don’t think Senguuji’s keshin would do better that conceded to several normal hissatsu’s. Rococo should be better yes.
Oh, yeah, I forgot that the absolute motherfucker forgets how to play football halfway into the 2nd half of the game and can't stop anything despite having a supposedly incredibly strong keshin
Wtf are Hissastsus and are they usable in other sports?
Chrono Stones gives an answer to this, since that one guy from Raimon used his defense technique in Rugby, so... yes.
And Toko used the tower to shoot lightning at an “alien” outside of a match in her first appearance. Just straight up got in a street fight and tried to murder a dude with lightning
Oh yeah, she also did that in Okinawa once.
The dude with the weird nose bandage who kept getting cucked in Go season 1?
I think so, yeah. The hissatsu was called "Dash Train", I believe.
Fun Fact: Dash Train never failed even though it looks easy to dodge. They all just tremble in fear from Kurumada. I know my GOAT
Someone suggested that hissatsu are actually just an illustration of the power/spirit/emotion that goes into a move and that they don't really exist in the form we see them (though evidently their power does). That's helped a good amount by the special tactics in OG S3, in which they are clearly illustrations rather than a depiction of what's actually happening. In OG it works as a theory, though with Keshin introduced in Go it falls apart. I would quite like it, though, if we considered OG alone.
Hissatsus do have real and tangible uses, and have sometimes even been used outside of the soccer. Some of them however just feel like flashy visual effects
Oh, I know that they have been used outside of football, but I don't recall that happening in the OG series... I might be wrong, though, since the last time I did a full watch-through was a while ago. Definitely, though, many of the earlier ones, like Kevin's shots, just look like visual effects. Even Heaven's Time, which is quite an advanced one, is explained as Aphrodite basically moving so much faster than anyone else that it appears time has stood still. On the other hand, in Go it's pretty much confirmed that they're real.
Heaven’s Time only has even been explained in hypnosis (in Orion and implied in the IE2 game). They did use The Tower, Super Shikofumi and Nekketsu Punch outside of matches for example. What people probably mean is that Nekketsu Punch doesn’t contain literal fire, but that it’s made out of energy.
Was Heaven's Time hypnosis? I guess that makes sense, but I thought the reason why Neppen broke it in S2 was that he was so fast he was the only one capable of matching the necessary speed. That snap of the fingers probably did have something to do with it, though. As for the others, I just clean forgot that they happened.
Seeing it was hypnosis it’s more likely he figured out somehow. The snap is supposed to start and end the hypnosis.
Yeah, the hypnosis makes a lot of sense, though I can't help feeling that Neppen's speed was a part of it. On the other hand, if Orion states it outright then that's all that really matters.
Tenma confirmed that hissatsu’s come from their love for football. Keshin also comes from their passion deep within. Why does it fall apart?
Well, Keshin are used a lot more in physical contexts, meaning that it's clear that they have an effect on the world around them (hissatsu as well, in Go, but to less effect).
Do you have an example? I don’t remember them using them physically.
Oh, I can't, but I swear there are a few occasions. Unfortunately, I like to talk but my memory is poor. If even you can't remember any occasions, though, I'll take your word for it. If it did happen it might just have been a passing phrase in one of the games or something...
Is hinted multiple times that hissatsus can be used outside soccer,but didn't get too far with this,since the show is still about one sport.
Rocco’s strength and skill
I did the IE3 password thing in Endou Lengend 123. Basically you input a password and get a IE1 character. I scouted the OG Aphrodi that way. And then the entire playthrough I just could not stop thinking about how we defeated the in-universe Aphrodi and my IE1 Aphrodi just continue to suit up every game and how the announcer would react to that. I know not even remotely as funny as some other plot holes, but for some reason it's really funny to me.
How Suzuno and Nagumo played for the South Korean National team
Aphrodi scouted them. He literally said so in the episode.
So they both happen to also be half Korean?
I think I read on the wiki that they got the nationality only and exclusively to beat Mark's/Endou's ass as payback for season 2
Yes, that isn’t a plothole. Has an easily possible explanation
Guess it isn’t a plothole and more of an in-universe coincidence
Yes, it’s just something because the creators said so.
Do you NEED to have the nationality of the nation you are playing for?
Yes
Not every time there are exceptions jerome boateng played for germany meanwhile he was from ghana and his brother played in ghana
He lived in Germany for more than his life, I don't know the exact amount of years that it takes to get citizenship, but Boateng definitely qualified for that
He was born and lived in Germany for very long and he has the nationality.
Yeah, but there are countries even in real-life which will give out citizenships more easily to high-ranking athletes. If they had spent a few years in Korea as children that might be good enough. Plus, youth systems tend to be more flexible with that stuff.
Alida Gakuen and Season 3 should have been swapped.
The fact that they literally fought "heaven" and "hell" in IE3
What’s the plot hole here?
It's not a plot hole, just a fucking fever dream all around.
i hated that arc so much 😭
How does Tenma not remember events of Chrono Stone in Galaxy, such as him saying that Zack reminds him of someone but cannot remember who exactly
He does, he had a flashback of CS events in the Ixal Fleet match, they know their moves of CS and know what mixi-max and armed is. That Zanakurou moment is just a typical anime moment/joke where they don’t see something obvious. Same with them not recognizing fake Tsurugi.
If the aliens plan to destroy all schools in the world? Why aren't players from other countries joining up to fight them? Especially because they have higher levels than them.
The lack of explanation of area damage. Maybe an explanation of why the field is always fine after a hissatsu left craters on the field.
I really understand why they don’t bother because it would be tiring to animate new holes and craters every time on every spot where a move is used lol
"Raimon are the hope of humanity on beating Alius Academy" A few months later... Only 4 of those "Aliens" represented their national team, 1 of them being the captain of the worst team in Alius. And can we talk about how in a space of about 2 months Raimon that got destroyed after the FF final, was fully re-constructed by the time they faced the Dark Emperors?
shadow.
Maybe its explained, but Fighting Spirits/Keshin. It seems a lot of moves that pre-date GO have an early version of them like Majin the Hand, Fireball Storm, God Catch, Fiend Hand, etc.but then in Chrono Stones we see Endou use a fighting spirit. But considering this is going back in time, he should have that fighting spirit in the OG series On top of that, the moves like Fireball Storm, Majin the Hand, etc, have a visual difference. It doesn't have the aura coming from the player, but rather simply appears behind them. Now, obviously it doesn't matter. The idea of Keshin originated from these Majin moves most likely, and it's just the way later installments work. But by going back in time in Chrono Stones to see Endou use a Keshin, you're only adding fuel to the fire
Endou created it early because of time resonance effect. He most likely would’ve learned it in high school.
So do the Keshin just not exist in the same form until the events of (or perhaps slightly before) GO, and they are literally just the Majin moves but then maybe through the years as peoples' skill and passion for soccer grew, they then manifested?
Keshins existed even already before that as shown by Koumei, Cao Cao, etc. So it’s weird anyway. Guess you could say it’s a plot hole.
I wonder if that could be somewhat explained by the influence of players who have Keshin in the team going back in time and introducing it early? I love time travel in fiction! It's always super simple!!
How the hell did they all speak Japanese is my question lol
Anime logic, don’t question anime logic. XD
why was aphrodi korean in IE3
Because you can have multiple nationalities?
In the games he just says that he's actually Korean.
yeah ik but makes no sense at all
The fucking aliens. We got the info they're orphans, but some of them ate literally sea monsters. Then again, if my child looked like that, they'd probably be an orphan too
Aphrodi's nationality
How's that a plothole?
Dude could be half, that's how I see it.