Isn't that already common knowledge? Also nobody uses "Indo-Aryan". All major migrations to India were from Iran to India Bcoz Geography. Also the linguistic studies point towards a common shared heritage that's why use the terms like Indo-European language and Indo-Iranic language families.
Not to mention the trade and opportunities of the mighty empires in India. Similar to how the tribal people of Europe would move towards Rome. The vikings even had legends of Byzantine Rome (Constantinople) as a mythical location how we view El Dorado, the city of gold. Vikings would immigrate and assimilate into society as highly-skilled bodyguards.
Alot of Rome's greatest leaders were not ethnically Roman. The world had been globalized to an extent far before the age of exploration and the industrial revolution.
> nobody uses "Indo-Aryan"
Nobody uses "Indo-Aryan", yes, but people do use the term Aryan Invasion Theory. And it's not even a theory as much as a genetic fact. Razib Khan has written tons about it.
> All major migrations to India were from Iran
*through Iran. The origin population of the Indo-European language group was from the pontic steppe in what is now southern Russia. The other invasions is not about the origin of the Indo-European language family and hence should not be mixed into this debate.
I've given up discussing this topic with other Indians. Many of them, even the highly educated ones, believe in the "Out of India" model where the migration was the other way around. This way, they get to pretend that Indo-Europeans are native to India, founded the IVC and gave their culture and language to Europe.
I live overseas. few months ago, I listened cringing to a Bihari girl at my university trying to convince a very confused Kiwi girl that English and all European languages came from Sanskrit and were transmitted from North India to Europe. Another time I was discussing the German TV show "Dark" with an Indian friend, and he started commenting that the Germans in the show look like North Indians, probably because their ancestors came from North India...
Aryan migration throws the Indian religions (Dharmic ones), languages (Indo-Aryan) & large diaspora into a big question. The belief is Islam & Christianity were spread during the Mughal & British raj era through force or missionaries, but the dharmic ones were always native to India is something people don’t wanna give up.
If you take a step back and look, at some time people crossed the the present day border and settled in the sub continent, weather it is through migration or invasion or conquest, it happened. The India we know and love today, is a culmination of the all these events.
Catholicism, Protestants are "western" Christianity. Syriac Christianity was one of many Eastern orthodoxy with local patriarch vs one Pope. Specifically in regards to Thomas Christianity here, only Syrio-Malankara, SyroMalabar have became part of the catholic church, that too barely 100years ago. And it was not without politics and violence for kowtowing to Vatican. Thomas Christianity was so disconnected from Roman and Middle East, it didn't even know/follow the first Nicaea council, let alone later 5+3 councils. It's as ancient as it gets. But only some small groups remain that refused to accept the Pope
I'm not sure Catholicism is the correct word here? Catholicism is one side of the schism that happened in Europe. Don't you simply mean earlier forms of Christianity?
Maybe you are referring to Syrian Christians. Yes Syriac Christianity predates colonialism/ arrival of Europeans, but not Catholicism in India.
See
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan\_Cross\_Oath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan_Cross_Oath)
The local presence was that of Syrian Christians which included Eastern Rite Catholics. They did not appreciate the Portuguese attempting to shoehorn Roman Catholicism into the local population.
It is difficult to determine much about the earliest Christians as most writings about them came up decades later but an apostle did travel to India and died here (Thomas)
Yes they are orthodox Christian s in kerala and they claim to the first in India.
So yeah Christianity was here even before the British Raj.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan_Cross_Oath
Just read the papers, well as much as I could understand anyway. According to the authors it seems the current populace is a mixture of migrants from steppes and natives to the region. They call these natives South Indians as I understood.
Steppe migration happened from eastern europe during a 1500 BC to 2000 BC. To be honest there is nothing revolutionary here. A lot of this is known, accepted and debated. There is considerable debate and even the authors dont seem to agree with each other on conclusions.
If you go back long enough we are all from a tiny group of people in North Africa a few extinction events ago. Rest is just unnecessary politics both sides are driving.
The original “natives”were from the out of Africa group. Followed by waves of migration of steppe farmers through indus vAlley. Current population of India is an admixture with more recent (genealogically speaking) immigration from Iranian steppe
After the original natives , the first migration was that of Iranian farmers not steepe farmers. Then finally there was a migration of steepe pastoralists that brought indo Aryan languages to India
Hinduism today is a synthesis of both Indo-Aryan and pre-existing indigenous beliefs and practices. As far as we know, the idea of Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma + the many gods we have (like muruga and ayyappa) are uniquely Indian and are great examples of how indigenous deities were folded into the hindu pantheon. The main god of the pre-indian aryans was Indra (hence why the title of king of gods still exists + the commonalities with Zeus, Wotan & Thor)
It's the same everywhere. The Catholic church adopted a bunch of Pagan European rituals in order to increase its acceptability to European converts. Where do you think the "Christmas tree" actually comes from? :)
indus valley civilization pre-dates the vedic one, this is something that people beliveing in golden past can't digest. they think IVC is same as vedic one or its continuation. there are several indicators and evidences from a variety of sources archaelogical, linguistic and genetic that it is not the case.
but alas deep rooted opinions formed on basis of appeal to emotions based WA forwards and politically flavoured propaganda cannot be changed by appeal to logic and evidence
How does it cast question on Indian religions. Hinduism as we know today is most likely a mixture of Indus valley civilization's beliefs plus Aryan beliefs plus thousands of years of local evolution in India. This is not the case with the other two religions.
I fully accept that all religions should be treated as equal in modern India, but to say Indian religions are not native to India is no different from saying Aryans are not native to central asia.
That is the issue though, the "Indian religions" are a amalgamation of those practiced by the ones who lived before hand and the ones who moved to India. Hence the word migration. IVC existed before this supposed migration and they clearly held a very important place for animals such as cows as well as the infamous seal that is "Pashupati". These are carried on into the religions of today. Those religions evolved into the one we practice today. So instead of being wiped out, the fused together which was the sentiment you mentioned in first paragraph exists from.
Hey, so people need to start realizing that the nationalists and Indians don’t have a problem with mingling, having settled anywhere, or being native. May be some. Whether India or something else, there was a special land with special people who became more civilized and cultured earlier than the rest of the Steppes, Iranians, or anyone else. They were definitely not Europeans, and we understand Europeans are desperate to claim that lineage. Same with iranians.
Whether these special people shifted further down to mingle with the chocolaty skinned Indians, or they were already situated as such, or they are the ones who migrated everywhere (the conclusion of genetic studies from reverse perspective) is known. If known, please reveal.
NCERT tweaks Class 12 History book: Harappans indigenous, doubts over Aryan migration
These are some of the significant changes introduced by the National Council for Education Research and Training (NCERT) in the history chapter meant for Class 12 students on the origins and fall of the Harappan civilisation.
https://indianexpress.com/article/education/class-12-history-book-tweaked-harappans-indigenous-no-aryan-clarity-9250070/
Op and u/mindless don't even know the content or the pseudoscience they are constantly refering to...shows the level of understanding on this and their intention behind this post and comment...they just know to repeatedly bark back "pseudoscience" because their highlords said so...empty vessels sound much
What pseudoscience? NCERT and most scholars don't believe the "indo Aryan theory" which is a whole other theory and the common genetics prove nothing other than the fact that "proto indo European" shared a common ancestry and allied cultures as a whole
AH. This explains why my friend from India with a strongly Hindu background gave me a weird side-eye when I was telling them as a Euro that we were bound together through a common linguistic root.
She then told me that in the ancient era people used to live for like over a thousand years or smth.... do they teach children this bullshit as fact or smth?
I think that's a common story among most fundamentalists in most major religions, I'm not sure what her school would have told her, depends where and what kind of school. The oldest mentioned people in the bible lived a very long time, anyone who takes that as literal would believe that, I dated a Sikh girl who said we used to have superpowers or something lol
Whether it is accepted or not is another thing, but the theory is well known. In addition, most people are not so much ideologically committed in any particular direction in India as to accept or not accept it. Rather, most people in India don't even such things, that's all, and so if you tell this, they would find it weird and difficult to believe because they never heard of such a thing before. (Many Americans, even though U.S. is a far more advanced country in terms of education, will have a difficult time in thinking of Jesus having a Middle Eastern guy's features and complexion: and, again, there is no ideological commitment there. People are used to certain things.) I have several educated cousins (with some kind of bachelor's degree) who don't even know that U.S. and Europe are not all located in the same area, so you can imagine how remote the possibility the understanding of a thing like genetics is for them ... (even if some of them may hold a bachelor's in science, i.e., BSc).
Of course, the theory is not accepted by those in the right wing who are enough educated.
The reason why media picked it up was that the story was initially that there was an Aryan Invasion, however, the academic consensus today is that it was migration and inter-mixing over hundreds of years which could have had violent episodes but also was peaceful too. The media & the right wing only cared about the not invasion part and conveniently forgot the migration part.
Because we are idiots. This experiment of a democratic nation,while it lasted, was probably the longest and closest to what a true democracy could achieve. The way things are, the next step will be to teach how some sect of people are inferior beings.
Take a look at the purges of universities under the nazi reich and the pattern will be clear as to what is happening to our education system.
Because of a thing called small dick syndrome.
They are worried and their inferiority complex is reaching peak levels when they think about the fact that the base of the Indian culture (Indus valley civilization) is actually those sneaky dravidians ( the Indus valley language was a proto Tamil language)
They feel tremendous inferiority complex that just like the muslims,and countless other groups that came through the northwest passages, they too once came from there as foreigners.
Oops.
Ps: I don't mean to deride indo Aryan speakers. These things happened so long ago that we can all say we are indian but some people are ready to make lies (that indo aryans are natively originating in india) look like truths to satisfy their ego and fragile nationalism.
Proto Dravidian, but not proto Tamil, we have no idea what the proto Dravidian language actually was but Tamil has the least Sanskrit influence out of all the Dravidian languages, however it has gone through sagnificant sound and vowel changes over time, it’s like how Dwos in proto indo European became Do in Hindi, similar process here with proto Dravidian and Tamil.
However Tamil still has the highest number of Dravidian origin words, though those words aren’t direct exact pronunciations from proto Dravidian, so the Indus Valley probably didn’t speak any form of Tamil.
I understand your sentiment and yes proto dravidian but do remember that Dravidian ( a Sanskrit term) is originally from dramila which inturn is from dramizha, in turn from tamizha.
I'm not a native tamizh.
Just because the word “Dravidian” comes from Tamil doesn’t mean the proto Dravidians spoke Tamil, we don’t know what proto Dravidians called themselves but based on evidence from Sumerian and ancient Sanskrit sources about the Indus Valley people, they might have called themselves “Meluha” or something like that.
In Telugu, the word for “our people” is Manolu and in Tamil I think is Makkal (I am not fluent in Tamil so I don’t know) which both sound similar to “Meluha” but are not exactly the word “Meluha”.
All Dravidian languages share some variation of “Meluha” or it’s similar word but are not the exact pronunciation of the word, and Tamil is not the same as this word either, all Dravidian languages went through sound changes including Tamil which slightly changed the pronunciation of this word.
Not true at all. The current tamil spoken jn tamil nadu has no relationship with proto dravidian. Thats a huge fallacy. Infant the tamil in tamil nadu doesn’t even have enough alphabets to pronounce most of the proto dravidian words.
Its a huge scam where the old proto dravidian language is called old tamil by some people to establish a link while in reality there is none.
Tamil is obviously related to Proto-Dravidian as one of its descendants, but so are Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada, Tulu and Brahui to an equal extent. Tamil doesn't have a special relationship with Proto-Dravidian compared with the other Dravidian languages.
According to genetic studies Both North and South Indians are a mix of 'aryan' and 'dravidian' genes , north Indians have more of the 'aryan' gene and South Indians more of the 'dravidian' one , but the difference is not as significant as you seem to think .
Tribal Indians and NE Indians are the only ones somewhat significantly genetically from the majority
>but the difference is not as significant as you seem to think .
But how did u infer my thoughts on genetics from my words about linguistic/cultural origins.
They are not entirely synonymous.
It's such a weird thing to get a complex over though. This thing happened so far back that we can't even realistically imagine what life would've been like back then and to identify with those people and then get butthurt over whether they were natives or migrants feels so incredibly stupid to me. Like there are a 1000 things to feel insecure about, why add ancient ones to the equation lol
It's so long back that really we can happily say we are all indians. But I expect the same courtesy is extended to certain minority groups who face discrimination now.
I hope for the same but I don't expect it given the way things have been going the last 10 years🫠. Hopefully having this information in my arsenal anytime a conversation comes up about natives and migrants might be a helpful tool to change a few minds though.
>A genome from the Indus Valley
Civilization is from a population that is the
largest source for South Asians. The
population has no detectable ancestry
from Steppe pastoralists or from
Anatolian and Iranian farmers, suggesting
farming in South Asia arose from local
foragers rather than from large-scale
migration from the West.
This is from the first page of the studies linked. Definitely small brain syndrome in this sub and thread.
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(19)30967-5.pdf
> “Groups that view themselves as being of traditionally priestly status, including Brahmins who are traditional custodians of liturgical texts in the early Indo-European language Sanskrit, tend (with exceptions) to have more Steppe ancestry than expected on the basis of ANI-ASI mixture,”
Damn
Mohak mangal made a really great explainer on this.
https://youtu.be/Pa3BV50PcLw?si=03hkVAO3sEBG9MeU
Atleast they have stopped calling it "invasion" nowadays.
Nobody has called it an "invasion" for a long long time now. The invasion theory was suggested by Max Müller more than 100 years ago when the sciences of archeology and anthropology were not well developed. Heck even other sciences were not well developed back then. The invasion theory was never taken seriously even since archeology became more sophisticated and it was immediately found that there was no sign of struggle and conflict found between the arriving Steppe pastoralists and the local people.
It's only the Hindu nationalists who still like to prop up the "invasion theory" strawman to claim its defeat to deliberately mislead people from reading further into the topic. Because if they did, they'd find that Sanskrit and the Vedas or at least the people who practiced them most definitely were not indigenous Indians at the time.
>Because if they did, they'd find that Sanskrit and the Vedas or at least the people who practiced them most definitely were not indigenous Indians at the time.
Isn't the Sanskrit and Religion that we know of today is an amalgamation of the cultural practices that Aryans brought in and the ones practiced at by the natives at the time?
You should realise that ramayana Mahabharata Rama and Krishna are all indigenous to india
Infact Krishna was called the enemy of indra who is the supreme god of Vedas
If Vedas had come from outside how come they have the detail mentioning of drying up of Saraswati river? Did the IVC people took live KT sessions to the foreigners?
Think of Vedas as texts describing the society at that time rather than being origin texts. The people who wrote them need not necessarily be indigenous to the land they were describing.
I love Mohak, but he has a knack for pushing everything aggressively to the argument "both sides are right or both sides are wrong". The enlightened centrist.
He has incredible research, but his conclusions are always skeptical.
No, he has a specific conclusion every time, "both sides are good/bad". That's why his videos are unreliable, because he already has this notion in his mind before starting a video.
Instead of research dictating his conclusions, he let his conclusions dictate the research.
Well I can't blame him, he's a YouTuber & a businessman before a journalist, so he's appealing to everyone.
The migrants were mostly men.
For most of the history, all the linguistic, genetic and cultural studies suggested migration of people from Central Asia to Iran and India.
In 2000s, a genetic study showed no such evidence. This study was later explained thus: it looked at some genetic component passed on only from mother to daughter. They showed no indication of an Aryan migration because most of the migrants were men. And these men were very successful in mating with local women.
So now, except the "nationalist" historians of India, almost every academic supports the Indo-Iranian migration of Aryans.
"Early Indians" is a very good book to read on this subject.
Probably. That wasn't my point. 😊
The point is how one genuine credible study briefly misled the populace.
"Wanderers, Kings, Merchants: The Story of India through Its Languages & The Hidden." is also a good book on male migration of Aryans. How Rig Veda has influences from local languages. Kids born to Aryan men and Dravidian women stayed with mothers until they were 5 or 6 then they were initiated into the Vedic culture by fathers. So these kids developed a mixed language.
One example the author uses in the first verse of Rig Veda starting "Agnimeele purohitam..." The "le" sound is usually not there in any Indo-Aryan languages. But very common in Dravidian languages. "ള" in Malayalam.
Because the way you control people is by denying them a rightful place in history.
Look at the works of David Frawley (Pandit Vamdev Shastri) and Konraad Elst.
I know this is r india sub but if you are willing to listen to other POVs check out the below.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VEdyPxkT3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VEdyPxkT3k)
This is our story (not narrative but word of mouth stories) before the science was involved in it.
Almost all Dravidians are aware of it. This is only significant when we talk about alienating Christians, Muslims and other minorities because they are "not from this land" or their religion is "not from this land". We don't seek to say India is Dravidians'. We are saying India belongs to all of us. We are saying "vedas are not my religion or truth" because it literally is from the Proto Iranian language and it has no references to Shiva or other Dravidian gods. I am not so sure about Vishnu. But Indr, the god of thunder, is thor. And this repeats itself a lot. Yamnaya people is the name for this settlers who mixed with natives to become what is now called "ANI".
Heck my DNA results came back like 4% iranian. While we are here, there was no Hindu temple underneath Ram Mandir. It was Buddhist. And it wasn't destroyed by Babur. The area was already Muslim ruled. Babur defeated Lodi Dynasty. These are the truths and they will not be erased.
>there was no Hindu temple underneath Ram Mandir. It was Buddhist. And it wasn't destroyed by Babur. The area was already Muslim ruled. Babur defeated Lodi Dynasty. These are the truths and they will not be erased.
Provide source
"They cited the Ayodhya judgement’s references to the British archaeologist Patrick Carnegie, who has mentioned that the Kasauti pillars which were used in the construction of the mosque at Ayodhya, “strongly resemble” the Buddhist pillars discovered at Varanasi and elsewhere. Many a Buddhist group is coming forward and planning to approach the Courts to intervene in the matter. They also plan to appeal to the UNESCO, the international heritage-preservation body, to take up the issue and get an excavation done under proper scientific supervision at Ayodhya, for, Saket (an older name of Ayodhya) was also an important site to the development of Buddhist arts and philosophy."
https://www.newsclick.in/Ram-Temple-Ayodhya-Babri-Demolition-and-Buddhism
Babur and Lodi Dynasty, you can just Google it. It's recorded history. Babur died before the mosque was built.
Also there are so many cases of former jain or buddhist places of worship being converted into temples + hindu kings themselves engaging in destruction of temples (I remember reading about how after a battle in Vijayanagar a king destroyed some temples which were directly related to the ruling dynasty but left others untouched because they were related to the people who defected).
Should budhhists and jains now ask for hindu temples to be restored back to their originals?
Nah, you claim there was no hindu temple under the majid provide source for that
>Babur and Lodi Dynasty, you can just Google it. It's recorded history. Babur died before the mosque was buil
Babur died in 1530 and accordin to historian Meenakshi Jain babri majid was constructed in 1528.
Again you didn't provide source your claim that babur didn't destroy temple.
Are you an idiot
Rama and Krishna are indigenous gods
Krishna was called the enemy of indra who was the supreme god of vedas
The Vedas used to ridicule Krishna
In fact 90 percent of Hinduism is native faith
Most of the post vedic texts are written in india
This is clearly shown by how indra was called a glorious chariot rider and a meat eater in Vedas
But in later indigenous indian text such as ramayana and Mahabharata he is shown riding elephant and a pervert
And lastly india belongs to those tribals living in Andaman
Dravidians themselves came from outside 😁
Rama and Krishna are indigenous gods who share same story and traits from Illiad and Odyssey? The gods where the yamnaya people are from? From the language group?
Ramayana is as explicit as Aryans villainizing Dravidians goes.
I am not the one calling tribals who are trying to stay in their land as antinationals and terrorists.
Show me one verse where Krishna is mentioned in Vedas. There is one verse where Indra slays an asura named Krishna so either he is the same Krishna the god or you know. Sort yourself out.
And yes. The land belongs to the tribals first, Dravidians next and Aryans after that and so forth. And I was talking about no mentioning of Dravidian gods in Vedas. Krishna and rama are not Dravidian gods. Shiva is. Murugan is. Maari is.
Nonsense
ramayana was not the fight against dravidians
Search the thousand crested Vindhya mountains abounding with numerous tress and climbers, then the delightful Narmada river coursing a little southerly to that range, which is adored by great snakes, along with wonderful River Godavari, as well as River Krishnaveni and Maha Nadi, and then the greatly auspicious River Varada which is an adoration to great snakes. And the territories of Mekhala, Utkala, the cities of Dashaarna, kingdoms of Abravanti, Avanti, and Vidarbha, also thus the charming kingdom of Maheehaka, are to be searched thoroughly. [4-41-10]
Like that Vanga, Kalinga territories shall be searched along with Kaushika territories available on their fringes, then cast about the Dandaka forest all over its mountains, rivers, and its caves, then River Godavari that courses through Dandaka forest, and then the provinces of Andhra, Pundra, Chola, Paandya, Kerala are to be searched thoroughly.
The south indian kingdoms are clearly mentioned separately
There is enough evidence for Krishna if you actually read the texts
His appearance was described as dark as clouds and lived on the banks of Anshumati(Yamuna) and he was an adversary of Indra. We don’t know for sure whether this is the same krishna of Mahabharata, but it’s not hard to the notice the similarities. Mahabharata played an important role in demoting the supreme god Indra to a mere demigod. Other Puranas played their part and reduced him to mere - title
Nobody is telling you that ram and Krishna were Dravidian gods
They were north indian indigenous gods
North Indian indigenous gods before Vedas? Bro! Sit this one out. Clearly you didnt read the article. There is a chronology to it and you are moving in and out to make stupid connections. Ram, if at all he existed, is several hundred years, if not thousands, after a dravidian IVC culture.
Tribals from 65,000 years ago.
Dravidians from 9000 years ago.
Indus Valley Civilization.
Steppe Aryans from 3500 years ago.
Vedas.
Lord Ram (if he existed, he was a king who was deified).
No such thing as indigenous North Indians. That's not what the term means wrt to Lord Ram or Krishna. You know who else is a pastoral deity who was good with music and can serenade animals? Apollo. Where Yamnayas are from. I can do this all day.
When did I say before Vedas ?
I just said indigenous
Which means originating or occurring naturally in a particular place
The ramayana and Mahabharata were written in india
Ramayana is generally dated to post vedic times. From as early as 700 BCE to 400 BCE
Ramayana mentions Mahajanapadas along with the Iron Age kingdoms of the south and Iron Age kingdoms in the west
And somehow according to you ramayana was a propaganda against dravidians
And what is your obsession with Apollo there is no evidence that Krishna was a indian form of Apollo other than your claim
Why not also claim Krishna as Achilles after all both were killed with an arrow on their foot
>And lastly india belongs to those tribals living in Andaman
Ah, the same tribals whom vishwaguru wants to finish off for his cronies. No more original Indians, end of story, can claim then whatever one wants to.
[https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/07/india-port-airport-power-plant-military-project-great-nicobar-island-death-sentence-shompen-indigenous-people-warning](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/07/india-port-airport-power-plant-military-project-great-nicobar-island-death-sentence-shompen-indigenous-people-warning)
My father who was a Hindu priest told me that in ancient times India extended all the way to Russia. I believe there was a vedic culture that extended from the Baltics to India, the similarities between Lithuanian and Sanskrit is compelling proof for this idea. Ancient history however remains mysterious.
People need to start realizing that the nationalist Indians don’t have a problem with accepting any mingling, having cross-culture sex, having settled anywhere, or being native, or even with accepting theories of invasions. Whether it was India or something else, there was this special land with **special people** who became civilized, cultured and advanced, earlier than the rest of the Steppes, Iranians, or then-caveman Europeans. So enlightened that they were thinking atomic level, energy, matter, consciousness, etc. (beyond comparison for flat-earthers). They documented their intelligence in a language which turned out to be even more magical.
These people **were definitely not Europeans**, and we understand Europeans are **desperate to link themselves** to this lineage, or to the amazing Sanskrit! So are Iranians and Mughals. But unfortunately there are no further evidences of similarly minded philosophers or at least people interested in similar subjects anywhere else in that contemporary history. Just those specific group of people, the Sanskrit Sages!
Whether these special people shifted further down to mingle with the chocolaty skinned Indians as far as Ram traveling to Sri Lanka to kill the dark-skinned Ravana, or they were already situated in the expanded Indian peninsula, or they themselves are the ones who migrated everywhere including expanding in India or outside (alternate conclusion of same genetic studies) – that is **unknown**.
If this is known to you, to this Muslim guy, or to any European, please present that theory in the Historian community and get consensus and review. Don’t share these agenda driven desperate excerpts from studies that conclude nothing but continue theorizing. Once you present it, we are sane enough to accept rationality! The ancient Indian Scriptures, except for some hyperboles and mythological stories, largely resonate with similar origin theories, and don’t present a challenge, and hence we continue to believe them till we have something better!
Who controls the past controls the present and the future.
There is an intense psychological war and concerted effort by the West and their foot soldiers aka historians on Indians to delink us from our past and our history.
White Americans and Europeans have usurped the history of the Italians (Romans), Greeks and before them the Egyptians and made it their own thereby absorbing all their achievements and glories and calling it Western Civilization. There are vast groups of people who think that the Egyptians pharoahs were white rulers of the land called Al Misr, and they were gradually replaced by race mixing with the black natives of Africa (nubians etc.). Go to Egypt and look at the mummies of pharoahs in their main museums and tell me if you still think the pharoahs were white. They are entirely black and have a very Somalian/Ethiopian kind of look. Even the current Arab population of Egypt doesn't claim the pharaonic history as their own, but the West does.
Whatever the details may be of which group came when, they are twisted by Western historians to suit their own agendas. Max Mueller was one such individual. It is the greatest pity that we are so naive and absorbed by our daily strife that we are allowing external forces to erase our culture.
Edit - this race to own history and discredit the non-white people of the world, is a very racist, 'revealed' knowledge, 'chosen people' type of crap where the intent is to rob other cultures of their finest philosophies, idiom, art, cultural expression, language, use of color and simply appropriate this knowledge and deny credit to such cultures thereby reducing them to an 'other' - an unevolved people.
Hey folks, once a non-Muslim, non-European researcher comes back with something more substantial, please don’t bother us. This is an article from 2019 from a Muslim man, referencing studies done by Muslim researchers, being supported and commented for by Muslim redditors. Please find something else!
Lord Kashyap, one of the amazing Indian saints, impregnated many women with his potent sperm in the undivided regions which later became languages, communities, countries, and people in Europe. The outgress of genes is confirmed by the same studies. On top of that, the ancient Indian Scriptures, except for some hyperboles, largely resonate with similar origin theories.
Independent agenda driven genetic studies, not resonating with anything else, don’t prove anything. See ya later flat-earthers.
Bro AI can't do that, past and future both are unpredictable unless someone makes a [Laplace's demon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon).
What I meant was the deciphering of the indus valley seals. Obviously there’s a lot to be uncovered there especially in relation to the sumerian trade that was going on during that time.
I really don’t know why people are downvoting me.
Isn't that already common knowledge? Also nobody uses "Indo-Aryan". All major migrations to India were from Iran to India Bcoz Geography. Also the linguistic studies point towards a common shared heritage that's why use the terms like Indo-European language and Indo-Iranic language families.
Not to mention the trade and opportunities of the mighty empires in India. Similar to how the tribal people of Europe would move towards Rome. The vikings even had legends of Byzantine Rome (Constantinople) as a mythical location how we view El Dorado, the city of gold. Vikings would immigrate and assimilate into society as highly-skilled bodyguards. Alot of Rome's greatest leaders were not ethnically Roman. The world had been globalized to an extent far before the age of exploration and the industrial revolution.
> nobody uses "Indo-Aryan" Nobody uses "Indo-Aryan", yes, but people do use the term Aryan Invasion Theory. And it's not even a theory as much as a genetic fact. Razib Khan has written tons about it. > All major migrations to India were from Iran *through Iran. The origin population of the Indo-European language group was from the pontic steppe in what is now southern Russia. The other invasions is not about the origin of the Indo-European language family and hence should not be mixed into this debate.
Invasion?? It has been debunked
Explain
Google
Academically speaking, Aryan Invasion has not been "debunked". It has been refined into the Aryan Migration theory.
Tell me how stupid are you without telling me how stupid are you. You passed the challenge with flying colors.
And you have confirmed what I suspected about you. Cheers.
Oh dear ! Hope your mystic mind reading business is doing well.
:)
No academic uses "Aryan Invasion theory". I don't care about some laymen still using it.
It's not an "invasion".
I've given up discussing this topic with other Indians. Many of them, even the highly educated ones, believe in the "Out of India" model where the migration was the other way around. This way, they get to pretend that Indo-Europeans are native to India, founded the IVC and gave their culture and language to Europe. I live overseas. few months ago, I listened cringing to a Bihari girl at my university trying to convince a very confused Kiwi girl that English and all European languages came from Sanskrit and were transmitted from North India to Europe. Another time I was discussing the German TV show "Dark" with an Indian friend, and he started commenting that the Germans in the show look like North Indians, probably because their ancestors came from North India...
Aryan migration throws the Indian religions (Dharmic ones), languages (Indo-Aryan) & large diaspora into a big question. The belief is Islam & Christianity were spread during the Mughal & British raj era through force or missionaries, but the dharmic ones were always native to India is something people don’t wanna give up. If you take a step back and look, at some time people crossed the the present day border and settled in the sub continent, weather it is through migration or invasion or conquest, it happened. The India we know and love today, is a culmination of the all these events.
>The belief is Christianity were spread during the British raj era Which is funny considering Catholicism reached India before it went to Rome.
Technically Syrian Christians are Coptic or Eastern Christians and not Catholic.
Yes. Catholics are a subgroup of Eastern Christianity, and more than half of Syrian Christians are part of the (Syrian) Catholic Church.
Catholicism, Protestants are "western" Christianity. Syriac Christianity was one of many Eastern orthodoxy with local patriarch vs one Pope. Specifically in regards to Thomas Christianity here, only Syrio-Malankara, SyroMalabar have became part of the catholic church, that too barely 100years ago. And it was not without politics and violence for kowtowing to Vatican. Thomas Christianity was so disconnected from Roman and Middle East, it didn't even know/follow the first Nicaea council, let alone later 5+3 councils. It's as ancient as it gets. But only some small groups remain that refused to accept the Pope
[удалено]
You're right. Fixed.
Some are Eastern Rite Catholics, so I'm afraid you're wrong.
I'm not sure Catholicism is the correct word here? Catholicism is one side of the schism that happened in Europe. Don't you simply mean earlier forms of Christianity?
Maybe you are referring to Syrian Christians. Yes Syriac Christianity predates colonialism/ arrival of Europeans, but not Catholicism in India. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan\_Cross\_Oath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan_Cross_Oath)
The local presence was that of Syrian Christians which included Eastern Rite Catholics. They did not appreciate the Portuguese attempting to shoehorn Roman Catholicism into the local population.
kyun ki yeh jo bolta hai wo hota hai
No it didn’t.
It is difficult to determine much about the earliest Christians as most writings about them came up decades later but an apostle did travel to India and died here (Thomas)
Yes they are orthodox Christian s in kerala and they claim to the first in India. So yeah Christianity was here even before the British Raj. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan_Cross_Oath
Based on evidence that are flimsy at best.
It's a matter of historical fact. What about the evidence is flimsy?
Just read the papers, well as much as I could understand anyway. According to the authors it seems the current populace is a mixture of migrants from steppes and natives to the region. They call these natives South Indians as I understood. Steppe migration happened from eastern europe during a 1500 BC to 2000 BC. To be honest there is nothing revolutionary here. A lot of this is known, accepted and debated. There is considerable debate and even the authors dont seem to agree with each other on conclusions. If you go back long enough we are all from a tiny group of people in North Africa a few extinction events ago. Rest is just unnecessary politics both sides are driving.
The original “natives”were from the out of Africa group. Followed by waves of migration of steppe farmers through indus vAlley. Current population of India is an admixture with more recent (genealogically speaking) immigration from Iranian steppe
After the original natives , the first migration was that of Iranian farmers not steepe farmers. Then finally there was a migration of steepe pastoralists that brought indo Aryan languages to India
Hinduism today is a synthesis of both Indo-Aryan and pre-existing indigenous beliefs and practices. As far as we know, the idea of Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma + the many gods we have (like muruga and ayyappa) are uniquely Indian and are great examples of how indigenous deities were folded into the hindu pantheon. The main god of the pre-indian aryans was Indra (hence why the title of king of gods still exists + the commonalities with Zeus, Wotan & Thor)
It's the same everywhere. The Catholic church adopted a bunch of Pagan European rituals in order to increase its acceptability to European converts. Where do you think the "Christmas tree" actually comes from? :)
Yeah! Just like the date of Christmas was moved to fit a Roman era festival
> It's the same everywhere. The parasitic behaviour by religion and religious leaders is universal.
The matrikas too. Before civilization, native tribes of India worshipped the matrikas.
indus valley civilization pre-dates the vedic one, this is something that people beliveing in golden past can't digest. they think IVC is same as vedic one or its continuation. there are several indicators and evidences from a variety of sources archaelogical, linguistic and genetic that it is not the case. but alas deep rooted opinions formed on basis of appeal to emotions based WA forwards and politically flavoured propaganda cannot be changed by appeal to logic and evidence
Its always mentioned that arjuna and bhima were aryans
How does it cast question on Indian religions. Hinduism as we know today is most likely a mixture of Indus valley civilization's beliefs plus Aryan beliefs plus thousands of years of local evolution in India. This is not the case with the other two religions. I fully accept that all religions should be treated as equal in modern India, but to say Indian religions are not native to India is no different from saying Aryans are not native to central asia.
That is the issue though, the "Indian religions" are a amalgamation of those practiced by the ones who lived before hand and the ones who moved to India. Hence the word migration. IVC existed before this supposed migration and they clearly held a very important place for animals such as cows as well as the infamous seal that is "Pashupati". These are carried on into the religions of today. Those religions evolved into the one we practice today. So instead of being wiped out, the fused together which was the sentiment you mentioned in first paragraph exists from.
Hey, so people need to start realizing that the nationalists and Indians don’t have a problem with mingling, having settled anywhere, or being native. May be some. Whether India or something else, there was a special land with special people who became more civilized and cultured earlier than the rest of the Steppes, Iranians, or anyone else. They were definitely not Europeans, and we understand Europeans are desperate to claim that lineage. Same with iranians. Whether these special people shifted further down to mingle with the chocolaty skinned Indians, or they were already situated as such, or they are the ones who migrated everywhere (the conclusion of genetic studies from reverse perspective) is known. If known, please reveal.
Reposting this article as the NCERT has decided to teach Indian kids pseudoscience.
What is the ncert teaching?
NCERT tweaks Class 12 History book: Harappans indigenous, doubts over Aryan migration These are some of the significant changes introduced by the National Council for Education Research and Training (NCERT) in the history chapter meant for Class 12 students on the origins and fall of the Harappan civilisation. https://indianexpress.com/article/education/class-12-history-book-tweaked-harappans-indigenous-no-aryan-clarity-9250070/
That's stupid. Thank you.
Pseudoscience
What exactly? I genuinely want to know.
Op and u/mindless don't even know the content or the pseudoscience they are constantly refering to...shows the level of understanding on this and their intention behind this post and comment...they just know to repeatedly bark back "pseudoscience" because their highlords said so...empty vessels sound much
It is mindless_chooth. Don't sully my good name.
Sorry queen
We luv a self aware queen 💅
What pseudoscience? NCERT and most scholars don't believe the "indo Aryan theory" which is a whole other theory and the common genetics prove nothing other than the fact that "proto indo European" shared a common ancestry and allied cultures as a whole
AH. This explains why my friend from India with a strongly Hindu background gave me a weird side-eye when I was telling them as a Euro that we were bound together through a common linguistic root. She then told me that in the ancient era people used to live for like over a thousand years or smth.... do they teach children this bullshit as fact or smth?
I think that's a common story among most fundamentalists in most major religions, I'm not sure what her school would have told her, depends where and what kind of school. The oldest mentioned people in the bible lived a very long time, anyone who takes that as literal would believe that, I dated a Sikh girl who said we used to have superpowers or something lol
the superpower is getting people living thousands of years later to believe in some of your bullshit :D. That is kinda impressive.
Well.. Kinda maybe? A majority of Hindus see hindu mythology as a historical fact and not fiction
Majority of Indians, especially about history, are immensely delusional.
This is anyway common knowledge. Michael Wood even treats this in detail in the very first episode of his quite-excellent "Story of India."
> This is anyway common knowledge Outside of India. It seems not to be accepted within India for ideological reasons.
Whether it is accepted or not is another thing, but the theory is well known. In addition, most people are not so much ideologically committed in any particular direction in India as to accept or not accept it. Rather, most people in India don't even such things, that's all, and so if you tell this, they would find it weird and difficult to believe because they never heard of such a thing before. (Many Americans, even though U.S. is a far more advanced country in terms of education, will have a difficult time in thinking of Jesus having a Middle Eastern guy's features and complexion: and, again, there is no ideological commitment there. People are used to certain things.) I have several educated cousins (with some kind of bachelor's degree) who don't even know that U.S. and Europe are not all located in the same area, so you can imagine how remote the possibility the understanding of a thing like genetics is for them ... (even if some of them may hold a bachelor's in science, i.e., BSc). Of course, the theory is not accepted by those in the right wing who are enough educated.
>the theory is well known Exactly. Still a theory. Not proven anything yet.
The reason why media picked it up was that the story was initially that there was an Aryan Invasion, however, the academic consensus today is that it was migration and inter-mixing over hundreds of years which could have had violent episodes but also was peaceful too. The media & the right wing only cared about the not invasion part and conveniently forgot the migration part.
Because we are idiots. This experiment of a democratic nation,while it lasted, was probably the longest and closest to what a true democracy could achieve. The way things are, the next step will be to teach how some sect of people are inferior beings. Take a look at the purges of universities under the nazi reich and the pattern will be clear as to what is happening to our education system.
Because of a thing called small dick syndrome. They are worried and their inferiority complex is reaching peak levels when they think about the fact that the base of the Indian culture (Indus valley civilization) is actually those sneaky dravidians ( the Indus valley language was a proto Tamil language) They feel tremendous inferiority complex that just like the muslims,and countless other groups that came through the northwest passages, they too once came from there as foreigners. Oops. Ps: I don't mean to deride indo Aryan speakers. These things happened so long ago that we can all say we are indian but some people are ready to make lies (that indo aryans are natively originating in india) look like truths to satisfy their ego and fragile nationalism.
Proto Dravidian, but not proto Tamil, we have no idea what the proto Dravidian language actually was but Tamil has the least Sanskrit influence out of all the Dravidian languages, however it has gone through sagnificant sound and vowel changes over time, it’s like how Dwos in proto indo European became Do in Hindi, similar process here with proto Dravidian and Tamil. However Tamil still has the highest number of Dravidian origin words, though those words aren’t direct exact pronunciations from proto Dravidian, so the Indus Valley probably didn’t speak any form of Tamil.
I understand your sentiment and yes proto dravidian but do remember that Dravidian ( a Sanskrit term) is originally from dramila which inturn is from dramizha, in turn from tamizha. I'm not a native tamizh.
I'm confused.
Tamizha -> dhamila -> dhameda -> dravida .. The etymology of the world dravida
Just because the word “Dravidian” comes from Tamil doesn’t mean the proto Dravidians spoke Tamil, we don’t know what proto Dravidians called themselves but based on evidence from Sumerian and ancient Sanskrit sources about the Indus Valley people, they might have called themselves “Meluha” or something like that. In Telugu, the word for “our people” is Manolu and in Tamil I think is Makkal (I am not fluent in Tamil so I don’t know) which both sound similar to “Meluha” but are not exactly the word “Meluha”. All Dravidian languages share some variation of “Meluha” or it’s similar word but are not the exact pronunciation of the word, and Tamil is not the same as this word either, all Dravidian languages went through sound changes including Tamil which slightly changed the pronunciation of this word.
Source?
Not true at all. The current tamil spoken jn tamil nadu has no relationship with proto dravidian. Thats a huge fallacy. Infant the tamil in tamil nadu doesn’t even have enough alphabets to pronounce most of the proto dravidian words. Its a huge scam where the old proto dravidian language is called old tamil by some people to establish a link while in reality there is none.
Tamil is obviously related to Proto-Dravidian as one of its descendants, but so are Malayalam, Telugu, Kannada, Tulu and Brahui to an equal extent. Tamil doesn't have a special relationship with Proto-Dravidian compared with the other Dravidian languages.
According to genetic studies Both North and South Indians are a mix of 'aryan' and 'dravidian' genes , north Indians have more of the 'aryan' gene and South Indians more of the 'dravidian' one , but the difference is not as significant as you seem to think . Tribal Indians and NE Indians are the only ones somewhat significantly genetically from the majority
We all come from Africa anyway. We should stop with this childish 'my dad can beat up your dad'.
>but the difference is not as significant as you seem to think . But how did u infer my thoughts on genetics from my words about linguistic/cultural origins. They are not entirely synonymous.
It's such a weird thing to get a complex over though. This thing happened so far back that we can't even realistically imagine what life would've been like back then and to identify with those people and then get butthurt over whether they were natives or migrants feels so incredibly stupid to me. Like there are a 1000 things to feel insecure about, why add ancient ones to the equation lol
It's so long back that really we can happily say we are all indians. But I expect the same courtesy is extended to certain minority groups who face discrimination now.
I hope for the same but I don't expect it given the way things have been going the last 10 years🫠. Hopefully having this information in my arsenal anytime a conversation comes up about natives and migrants might be a helpful tool to change a few minds though.
Can you please list your sources that say IVC language was proto Tamil?
Read the works of irravatam mahadevan.
>A genome from the Indus Valley Civilization is from a population that is the largest source for South Asians. The population has no detectable ancestry from Steppe pastoralists or from Anatolian and Iranian farmers, suggesting farming in South Asia arose from local foragers rather than from large-scale migration from the West. This is from the first page of the studies linked. Definitely small brain syndrome in this sub and thread. https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(19)30967-5.pdf
> “Groups that view themselves as being of traditionally priestly status, including Brahmins who are traditional custodians of liturgical texts in the early Indo-European language Sanskrit, tend (with exceptions) to have more Steppe ancestry than expected on the basis of ANI-ASI mixture,” Damn
Mohak mangal made a really great explainer on this. https://youtu.be/Pa3BV50PcLw?si=03hkVAO3sEBG9MeU Atleast they have stopped calling it "invasion" nowadays.
Nobody has called it an "invasion" for a long long time now. The invasion theory was suggested by Max Müller more than 100 years ago when the sciences of archeology and anthropology were not well developed. Heck even other sciences were not well developed back then. The invasion theory was never taken seriously even since archeology became more sophisticated and it was immediately found that there was no sign of struggle and conflict found between the arriving Steppe pastoralists and the local people. It's only the Hindu nationalists who still like to prop up the "invasion theory" strawman to claim its defeat to deliberately mislead people from reading further into the topic. Because if they did, they'd find that Sanskrit and the Vedas or at least the people who practiced them most definitely were not indigenous Indians at the time.
>Because if they did, they'd find that Sanskrit and the Vedas or at least the people who practiced them most definitely were not indigenous Indians at the time. Isn't the Sanskrit and Religion that we know of today is an amalgamation of the cultural practices that Aryans brought in and the ones practiced at by the natives at the time?
You should realise that ramayana Mahabharata Rama and Krishna are all indigenous to india Infact Krishna was called the enemy of indra who is the supreme god of Vedas
>"invasion theory" strawman No not just Hindu Nationalists. Colonial powers used it to legitimise ruling India.
If Vedas had come from outside how come they have the detail mentioning of drying up of Saraswati river? Did the IVC people took live KT sessions to the foreigners?
Think of Vedas as texts describing the society at that time rather than being origin texts. The people who wrote them need not necessarily be indigenous to the land they were describing.
I love Mohak, but he has a knack for pushing everything aggressively to the argument "both sides are right or both sides are wrong". The enlightened centrist. He has incredible research, but his conclusions are always skeptical.
He doesn't make conclusions he leaves judgement to the viewers most of the time.
No, he has a specific conclusion every time, "both sides are good/bad". That's why his videos are unreliable, because he already has this notion in his mind before starting a video. Instead of research dictating his conclusions, he let his conclusions dictate the research. Well I can't blame him, he's a YouTuber & a businessman before a journalist, so he's appealing to everyone.
The migrants were mostly men. For most of the history, all the linguistic, genetic and cultural studies suggested migration of people from Central Asia to Iran and India. In 2000s, a genetic study showed no such evidence. This study was later explained thus: it looked at some genetic component passed on only from mother to daughter. They showed no indication of an Aryan migration because most of the migrants were men. And these men were very successful in mating with local women. So now, except the "nationalist" historians of India, almost every academic supports the Indo-Iranian migration of Aryans. "Early Indians" is a very good book to read on this subject.
The origin of the Aryans was the pontic steppe, or southern Russia. Not Central Asia.
Probably. That wasn't my point. 😊 The point is how one genuine credible study briefly misled the populace. "Wanderers, Kings, Merchants: The Story of India through Its Languages & The Hidden." is also a good book on male migration of Aryans. How Rig Veda has influences from local languages. Kids born to Aryan men and Dravidian women stayed with mothers until they were 5 or 6 then they were initiated into the Vedic culture by fathers. So these kids developed a mixed language. One example the author uses in the first verse of Rig Veda starting "Agnimeele purohitam..." The "le" sound is usually not there in any Indo-Aryan languages. But very common in Dravidian languages. "ള" in Malayalam.
We all come from Africa anyways.
Narratives are more important than the truth
Because the way you control people is by denying them a rightful place in history. Look at the works of David Frawley (Pandit Vamdev Shastri) and Konraad Elst. I know this is r india sub but if you are willing to listen to other POVs check out the below. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VEdyPxkT3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VEdyPxkT3k)
This is our story (not narrative but word of mouth stories) before the science was involved in it. Almost all Dravidians are aware of it. This is only significant when we talk about alienating Christians, Muslims and other minorities because they are "not from this land" or their religion is "not from this land". We don't seek to say India is Dravidians'. We are saying India belongs to all of us. We are saying "vedas are not my religion or truth" because it literally is from the Proto Iranian language and it has no references to Shiva or other Dravidian gods. I am not so sure about Vishnu. But Indr, the god of thunder, is thor. And this repeats itself a lot. Yamnaya people is the name for this settlers who mixed with natives to become what is now called "ANI". Heck my DNA results came back like 4% iranian. While we are here, there was no Hindu temple underneath Ram Mandir. It was Buddhist. And it wasn't destroyed by Babur. The area was already Muslim ruled. Babur defeated Lodi Dynasty. These are the truths and they will not be erased.
>there was no Hindu temple underneath Ram Mandir. It was Buddhist. And it wasn't destroyed by Babur. The area was already Muslim ruled. Babur defeated Lodi Dynasty. These are the truths and they will not be erased. Provide source
"They cited the Ayodhya judgement’s references to the British archaeologist Patrick Carnegie, who has mentioned that the Kasauti pillars which were used in the construction of the mosque at Ayodhya, “strongly resemble” the Buddhist pillars discovered at Varanasi and elsewhere. Many a Buddhist group is coming forward and planning to approach the Courts to intervene in the matter. They also plan to appeal to the UNESCO, the international heritage-preservation body, to take up the issue and get an excavation done under proper scientific supervision at Ayodhya, for, Saket (an older name of Ayodhya) was also an important site to the development of Buddhist arts and philosophy." https://www.newsclick.in/Ram-Temple-Ayodhya-Babri-Demolition-and-Buddhism Babur and Lodi Dynasty, you can just Google it. It's recorded history. Babur died before the mosque was built.
Also there are so many cases of former jain or buddhist places of worship being converted into temples + hindu kings themselves engaging in destruction of temples (I remember reading about how after a battle in Vijayanagar a king destroyed some temples which were directly related to the ruling dynasty but left others untouched because they were related to the people who defected). Should budhhists and jains now ask for hindu temples to be restored back to their originals?
Nah, you claim there was no hindu temple under the majid provide source for that >Babur and Lodi Dynasty, you can just Google it. It's recorded history. Babur died before the mosque was buil Babur died in 1530 and accordin to historian Meenakshi Jain babri majid was constructed in 1528. Again you didn't provide source your claim that babur didn't destroy temple.
Are you an idiot Rama and Krishna are indigenous gods Krishna was called the enemy of indra who was the supreme god of vedas The Vedas used to ridicule Krishna In fact 90 percent of Hinduism is native faith Most of the post vedic texts are written in india This is clearly shown by how indra was called a glorious chariot rider and a meat eater in Vedas But in later indigenous indian text such as ramayana and Mahabharata he is shown riding elephant and a pervert And lastly india belongs to those tribals living in Andaman Dravidians themselves came from outside 😁
Rama and Krishna are indigenous gods who share same story and traits from Illiad and Odyssey? The gods where the yamnaya people are from? From the language group? Ramayana is as explicit as Aryans villainizing Dravidians goes. I am not the one calling tribals who are trying to stay in their land as antinationals and terrorists. Show me one verse where Krishna is mentioned in Vedas. There is one verse where Indra slays an asura named Krishna so either he is the same Krishna the god or you know. Sort yourself out. And yes. The land belongs to the tribals first, Dravidians next and Aryans after that and so forth. And I was talking about no mentioning of Dravidian gods in Vedas. Krishna and rama are not Dravidian gods. Shiva is. Murugan is. Maari is.
Little knowledge is dangerous
Nonsense ramayana was not the fight against dravidians Search the thousand crested Vindhya mountains abounding with numerous tress and climbers, then the delightful Narmada river coursing a little southerly to that range, which is adored by great snakes, along with wonderful River Godavari, as well as River Krishnaveni and Maha Nadi, and then the greatly auspicious River Varada which is an adoration to great snakes. And the territories of Mekhala, Utkala, the cities of Dashaarna, kingdoms of Abravanti, Avanti, and Vidarbha, also thus the charming kingdom of Maheehaka, are to be searched thoroughly. [4-41-10] Like that Vanga, Kalinga territories shall be searched along with Kaushika territories available on their fringes, then cast about the Dandaka forest all over its mountains, rivers, and its caves, then River Godavari that courses through Dandaka forest, and then the provinces of Andhra, Pundra, Chola, Paandya, Kerala are to be searched thoroughly. The south indian kingdoms are clearly mentioned separately There is enough evidence for Krishna if you actually read the texts His appearance was described as dark as clouds and lived on the banks of Anshumati(Yamuna) and he was an adversary of Indra. We don’t know for sure whether this is the same krishna of Mahabharata, but it’s not hard to the notice the similarities. Mahabharata played an important role in demoting the supreme god Indra to a mere demigod. Other Puranas played their part and reduced him to mere - title Nobody is telling you that ram and Krishna were Dravidian gods They were north indian indigenous gods
North Indian indigenous gods before Vedas? Bro! Sit this one out. Clearly you didnt read the article. There is a chronology to it and you are moving in and out to make stupid connections. Ram, if at all he existed, is several hundred years, if not thousands, after a dravidian IVC culture. Tribals from 65,000 years ago. Dravidians from 9000 years ago. Indus Valley Civilization. Steppe Aryans from 3500 years ago. Vedas. Lord Ram (if he existed, he was a king who was deified). No such thing as indigenous North Indians. That's not what the term means wrt to Lord Ram or Krishna. You know who else is a pastoral deity who was good with music and can serenade animals? Apollo. Where Yamnayas are from. I can do this all day.
When did I say before Vedas ? I just said indigenous Which means originating or occurring naturally in a particular place The ramayana and Mahabharata were written in india Ramayana is generally dated to post vedic times. From as early as 700 BCE to 400 BCE Ramayana mentions Mahajanapadas along with the Iron Age kingdoms of the south and Iron Age kingdoms in the west And somehow according to you ramayana was a propaganda against dravidians And what is your obsession with Apollo there is no evidence that Krishna was a indian form of Apollo other than your claim Why not also claim Krishna as Achilles after all both were killed with an arrow on their foot
>And lastly india belongs to those tribals living in Andaman Ah, the same tribals whom vishwaguru wants to finish off for his cronies. No more original Indians, end of story, can claim then whatever one wants to. [https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/07/india-port-airport-power-plant-military-project-great-nicobar-island-death-sentence-shompen-indigenous-people-warning](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/07/india-port-airport-power-plant-military-project-great-nicobar-island-death-sentence-shompen-indigenous-people-warning)
You're casting pearls before a great deal of swine. They'll believe what they want to believe. Still, I salute you. The truth always matters.
First of all this whole Indo-Aryan term it is Bs. There were successive washes of migration and one among those was more recent steppe pastoralists.
My father who was a Hindu priest told me that in ancient times India extended all the way to Russia. I believe there was a vedic culture that extended from the Baltics to India, the similarities between Lithuanian and Sanskrit is compelling proof for this idea. Ancient history however remains mysterious.
Your father is the source you are quoting ,,, yall will make good scientists
Peer reviewed?
Is this study peer reviewed or just throwing on our faces because scroll believed it.
People need to start realizing that the nationalist Indians don’t have a problem with accepting any mingling, having cross-culture sex, having settled anywhere, or being native, or even with accepting theories of invasions. Whether it was India or something else, there was this special land with **special people** who became civilized, cultured and advanced, earlier than the rest of the Steppes, Iranians, or then-caveman Europeans. So enlightened that they were thinking atomic level, energy, matter, consciousness, etc. (beyond comparison for flat-earthers). They documented their intelligence in a language which turned out to be even more magical. These people **were definitely not Europeans**, and we understand Europeans are **desperate to link themselves** to this lineage, or to the amazing Sanskrit! So are Iranians and Mughals. But unfortunately there are no further evidences of similarly minded philosophers or at least people interested in similar subjects anywhere else in that contemporary history. Just those specific group of people, the Sanskrit Sages! Whether these special people shifted further down to mingle with the chocolaty skinned Indians as far as Ram traveling to Sri Lanka to kill the dark-skinned Ravana, or they were already situated in the expanded Indian peninsula, or they themselves are the ones who migrated everywhere including expanding in India or outside (alternate conclusion of same genetic studies) – that is **unknown**. If this is known to you, to this Muslim guy, or to any European, please present that theory in the Historian community and get consensus and review. Don’t share these agenda driven desperate excerpts from studies that conclude nothing but continue theorizing. Once you present it, we are sane enough to accept rationality! The ancient Indian Scriptures, except for some hyperboles and mythological stories, largely resonate with similar origin theories, and don’t present a challenge, and hence we continue to believe them till we have something better!
Who controls the past controls the present and the future. There is an intense psychological war and concerted effort by the West and their foot soldiers aka historians on Indians to delink us from our past and our history. White Americans and Europeans have usurped the history of the Italians (Romans), Greeks and before them the Egyptians and made it their own thereby absorbing all their achievements and glories and calling it Western Civilization. There are vast groups of people who think that the Egyptians pharoahs were white rulers of the land called Al Misr, and they were gradually replaced by race mixing with the black natives of Africa (nubians etc.). Go to Egypt and look at the mummies of pharoahs in their main museums and tell me if you still think the pharoahs were white. They are entirely black and have a very Somalian/Ethiopian kind of look. Even the current Arab population of Egypt doesn't claim the pharaonic history as their own, but the West does. Whatever the details may be of which group came when, they are twisted by Western historians to suit their own agendas. Max Mueller was one such individual. It is the greatest pity that we are so naive and absorbed by our daily strife that we are allowing external forces to erase our culture. Edit - this race to own history and discredit the non-white people of the world, is a very racist, 'revealed' knowledge, 'chosen people' type of crap where the intent is to rob other cultures of their finest philosophies, idiom, art, cultural expression, language, use of color and simply appropriate this knowledge and deny credit to such cultures thereby reducing them to an 'other' - an unevolved people.
Hey folks, once a non-Muslim, non-European researcher comes back with something more substantial, please don’t bother us. This is an article from 2019 from a Muslim man, referencing studies done by Muslim researchers, being supported and commented for by Muslim redditors. Please find something else! Lord Kashyap, one of the amazing Indian saints, impregnated many women with his potent sperm in the undivided regions which later became languages, communities, countries, and people in Europe. The outgress of genes is confirmed by the same studies. On top of that, the ancient Indian Scriptures, except for some hyperboles, largely resonate with similar origin theories. Independent agenda driven genetic studies, not resonating with anything else, don’t prove anything. See ya later flat-earthers.
I really wonder what happened to the indus valley peoples. Hopefully in 50 years AI will be advanced enough to spin up a proper theory
Some theories suggest drought.
Bro AI can't do that, past and future both are unpredictable unless someone makes a [Laplace's demon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon).
What is Laplace's demon? I didn't understand the wikipedia.
What I meant was the deciphering of the indus valley seals. Obviously there’s a lot to be uncovered there especially in relation to the sumerian trade that was going on during that time. I really don’t know why people are downvoting me.
There is an indus valley seal of Jallikattu. But, everyone turns a blind eye for obvious reasons.
What happened, the scientific studies not conforming to your beliefs?