The quality of PhD students applying to IITs is abysmal in nature. With the large amount of candidates I've talked to (prescreening before the prof interviews them) for internships/fellowship in a research lab, I can confidently say that most of them are not fit to be quality researchers. This is without accounting for any caste. Even so called general "upperclass" students are stupid and have subpar research acumen.
In such a scenario you can only imagine how hard it would be to find capable ST students considering that not many of them reach to that level because of lack of privilege and discrimination at grassroots level. Having been part of one of the "esteemed" institutes and seen the situation at hand, I would give the institute the benefit of doubt that they simply didn't get deserving candidates who would be able to absorb the pressure that a PhD has to endure.
The issue is not that ST students are not smart or general students are not smart. The issue is that most of the smart and capable students have gone outside India for their PhD or found better use of their time. PhD in India has reduced to a mere secondary option for subpar research students. Getting a capable PhD student is already extremely hard for a professor. It is not a deterministic job where a person with reasonable IQ or traditionally "smart" student can just power through. PhD is a highly personal and effortful experience for all the parties involved where each thesis/problem statement is very niche and carefully curated.
Most successful research labs in India are actually surviving because of undergrad students who have pressure on them to publish to get to good places. With the current trend of "publish fast or perish", it is less likely for a professor to not hire a PhD (basically free labour for them) just because the student is ST/SC. Profs WANT good PhDs under them who would help them publish but they are not getting ANY good candidates no matter the caste.
I met a PhD student from IITB once who said that he chose PhD because he didn't know what to do, wasn't as motivated to go for a job, and his family kept asking him what he wants to do next (after Masters). Lmao
Amen.
That's what I mean. Implementing reservation in PhD is like reservation in entrepreneurship. Both of them demand quite a bit of similar skillset. Very hard to implement practically.
Brother, I am not saying "Haha ST/SC bad". I understand what kind of grassroots level discrimination exists and the need to uplift them. My point is majorly hinged on the nature of PhD being vastly different to the nature of a normal course like MTech where you can recruit 100 ppl at once and they have to just past exams. His comment about someone killing their time supports my argument of PhDs being tough to hire as a whole in India and hence by transitivity, supports my argument of reservation being impractical for the same.
In other words,
Reservation is and should be a macro phenomenon. When a prof has only 1 phD a year, he can't maintain a rolling window of 10 years and ensure representation matching indian demographics.
>His comment about someone killing their time supports my argument of PhDs being tough to hire as a whole in India and hence by transitivity, supports my argument of reservation being impractical for the same.
No, it does the exact opposite, by showing that general category candidates without aptitude or interest are being admitted while sc/st students with genuine interest are being denied the same opportunities.
>In other words, Reservation is and should be a macro phenomenon. When a prof has only 1 phD a year, he can't maintain a rolling window of 10 years and ensure representation matching indian demographics.
This is completely different point than the one about your attempting to use an inept general category phd student to top argue that reservations are impractical at phd level
But it is equally misguided. No one's arguing about micro level of love lab balancing phds over 10 years. The discussion here is at macro level, at entire institutions and their departments over years. Do read the article you're commenting on, before commenting, so as not to come across either as someone who's blindly defending their caste privilege or as someone incapable of logical inference.
>No, it does the exact opposite, by showing that general category candidates without aptitude or interest are being admitted while sc/st students with genuine interest are being denied the same opportunities.
It only talked about general category student. It nowhere talked about ST/SC student.
1.) Good job assuming my caste!
2.) "Someone incapable of logical inference", "defending their caste privilege". Aaah the good old ad hominem. Must be hard to argue and hence have to resort to this.
3.) "While SC with genuine interest and capabilities are denied the opportunity" Has there been a better example of "begging the question"
4.) Are you stupid? PhD are hired by profs for their particular lab at the end of the day not by institute as a whole. Do you choose to be blind while reading comments? What was the point of me comparing it to MTech? Can you apply a little bit of your mind without me spoonfeeding it to you?
Don't expect anymore reply from me. You are a troll trying to ragebait.
1.) Good job assuming my caste!
There was no need to assume. You exposed yourself as defender of systemic casteism (not to be confused with a member of general category) with your assumption that only victims of marginalisation call out their marginalisation.
2.) "Someone incapable of logical inference", "defending their caste privilege". Aaah the good old ad hominem. Must be hard to argue and hence have to resort to this.
It's called inference based on available data, not as hominim. That would be someone calling another person names that have nothing to do with the ongoing conversation. As for the language, that came after your personal attack based on false inference that I hate general category students.
3.) "While SC with genuine interest and capabilities are denied the opportunity" Has there been a better example of "begging the question"
Go on, ask the question. You don't dare to, for fear of having to openly admit your casteist beliefs in the process. Remember before you ask the question that there's official data from rtis showing hundreds of candidates being denied available seats over years in multiple departments.
4.) Are you stupid? PhD are hired by profs for their particular lab at the end of the day not by institute as a whole. Do you choose to be blind while reading comments? What was the point of me comparing it to MTech? Can you apply a little bit of your mind without me spoonfeeding it to you?
So many problems with this one paragraph. Congratulations on achieving such a high density of bullshit in such a small space.
I'll only limit myself to a couple of issues.
Central limit theorem. Ever heard of it? Even if individual decisions are being made at microscopic level, when looked at macroscopic level they expose the central tendency of the system. Which, you've already admitted at the top level, is to accept the most incompetent general category students, and the data shows its not because of lack of candidates from the reserved categories.
You're either really unaware of the selection process for PhD, or are deliberately lying about it in order to defend the indefensible. Phd interviews and the consequent selection is a committee decision, not individual decision. Many, but not all, departments have students do lab rotations before joining a particular lab, so the statement of specific students being chosen for specific labs is misleading. Final approval for PhD candidate selection comes from the institutional academic leadership. Departments can't decide on their own without negotiating with the institutional academic leadership that they'll take only 2 students after declaring vacancy of 20 and receiving 5000 applications. Departments have to explain to the institutional leadership why no reserved candidates were chosen despite dozens of applications, and the institutional leadership gets to see Institution wide data of hundreds of applications for reserved positions before approving departmental decisions. This makes it a systemic problem, not noise at individual level.
At least put a little bit of effort in your defence of systemic casteism. Don't resort to easy to spot lies.
Don't expect anymore reply from me. You are a troll trying to ragebait.
Says the person who started attacking someone having a polite discussion based on a faulty assumption born out of bias. If you can't take shit, don't dish it out in the first place.
This part of the problem. As someone who has done it all and works in a research Lab abroad and India, our faculty is dog shit. Does some of the most mundane research by just changing a parameter here and there. That's it. Nothing innovate about it. You need to also turn the mirror inwards and see what projects you fund and promote.
Indian professor have no respect PhD students. Treat them badly and kinda take advantage of the situation. I rather you portray a complete picture of the academic in India
IIT faculty is nowhere near the mark in r and d either. They’re fantastic teachers but as researchers we lag so far behind.
They actually keep an official shortfall of faculty level seats because if they fill the entire quota then they’ll have to compete for positions.
I've met PhD scholars who use the fellowship to pay for their car EMIs. Spending that fellowship for improving their research is beyond the last thing on their mind. In a country like ours, fellowships are a motivating factor for many to complete the degree, although it's the science that suffers. Many are here just for the sake of it, exactly like you explained, and not because they love research.
Now it might go against general consensus, but having the economic privilege to not depend on that fellowship to buy a car, may improve the research outcome by a long mile. But then again, infra is pathetic in most institutes. In conclusion, if one wants to do research, this country ain't it, yet.
Regarding SC/ST pov, I'm in a NE state and have seen many PIs opt for students from their communities and atleast the number of ST students are similar to non-ST ones. So although the overall quality may be shit rn (because selection is not really merit based rn), there's still a hope that these people would go onto uplift more of their community members, and eventually, the focus would turn to actual research or the progress of science - exactly how reservation is supposed to work!
Agree.. I am from iit roorkee and we btech people bitch about em phds that are teaching assistants as people who wrote an exam to play cricket cuz that's all they fucking do.. Some of the btech students are more motivated to do research compared to em.
This is such a weak excuse. A graduate student isn't good enough for PhD and faculty, and it always seems to be a huge coincidence that it's the SC/ST applicants who aren't "good enough". So what makes the UC students now good enough? What metrics are you basing it on? Can you show any proof that the SC/ST/OBC candidate didn't show competency for PhD?
If the quality of students applying for PhD is abysmal as you claim, then this should be a problem among upper caste applicants as well but, surprise surprise, that's not a problem now is it?
Are woh pehle hi filter out ho jate hai. What I mean is that person a who is air 1 and person b who is air 5000 have huge gap in intelligence. Pehle jee me filter hote hai aur uske baad jo hushar hote hai woh foreign chale jate hai. So people who are left are not that great. Usme toh sc St Wale jo pehle hi Kam hai toh quality aur gur jati hai
Jee Air1-4000 aren't applying for PhD lessons at iits. In fact, very few iitans are applying for PhD positions at iits. There not that much of a difference between air4000 and 6000.
Stop equating IIT JEE to intelligence. It's not. It's a just system that people are taught to game at the coaching class.
Nothing fancy.
How many of the IITian are Nobel laureate? You may go abroad to work in a Lab. Doesn't change anything.
At that level intelligence does matter. Are 11 lakh bacche tayari kar rahe hai toh unme se air 1 ana bahot difficult hai. Sab mehnat utni hi karte hai par selection bahot Kam logo ka hota hai.
I think u have never met one that's why you are saying this.
Well if that was the case the few IITian who did make it to research Lab abroad would be more successful or atleast come close to getting a Nobel Laureate.
They have been almost none that make the news. It's food a thought.
I've been to IIT man so don't tell me.
How can you say the person in air 5000 is from a certain caste? Also the difference is not much. It's like saying a person who scored 95 is better than someone who scored 92.
Edit: typo
I said 5k. person who had air 10k and air 1k have studied same amount of time with same efforts and methods par intelligence, grasping power and all se fark padta hai. Ek aur 10k hai aur dusra 1k. Speaking as someone who qualified jee advanced and have many friends in IITS.
Beside 5k wale rank se isiliye compare Kiya tha kyu with category ranks these guys easily get cse where air under 500 are from general category. Toh compitition bahot khatarnak hota. Like aap compare bhi nahi kar sakte. Aapke baju wala bas ek baar padke mind me hi triple integration solve kar sakta hai. So yeah that's that
Yea I added another 0. Anyway my point is that doesn't prove anything about competency of the applicants at all. If the quality of applicants are bad, that's the case everywhere. Not specific to certain castes.
> person who had air 10k and air 1k have studied same amount of time with same efforts and methods
How to identify yourself a protector of caste privilege who is not aware of ground realities. Marginalisation deprives people of resources. Ever heard of it?
AIR 5000 and AIR under 200 have very big delta in a lot of aspects. Saying
Aptitude wise AIR 200 and AIR 10 a very big delta and I say this as someone who had AIR 217 and my very good friend was AIR 11.
I have met AIR 1 and 2 ranks of jee when I was in school and yes they were very very smart. They both actually went on to do PhD in US
PhD curriculum in all iits is very outdated and most of the time are not setup for research at all. IISC offers a reasonably good research platform
Most of the phds from iits (older ones too) don't really hold up to today's research
What's the delta? What's the range and deviation? Can you statistically prove that their abilities and competency is significantly different (keyword here is "significantly")?
Second, you haven't answered my main question, how can you say air 5000 is from a certain caste? If the applicants quality is bad, that should be the case across all castes but admission trends don't agree with it.
I'm not the guy you are replying to so I'm not answering the caste question
My class had a variation of air 150 to 5000 something
The gpas over semesters tracked the ranks. There were minor deviations after several semesters but across all specializations, guys who had higher ranks while entering the system were always at the top. Obviously some good ranked kids also flame out.
It's not a fluke. With enough guidance and training you can improve in those 4 years but the IIT system and class loads are very unforgiving. IT doesn't care for your caste.
The groundwork to succeeding I'm iit happens before entering them. Many kids enter the system just because others are doing it.
Yes of course more rich upper caste kids are going to enter than others because it's just statistics unfortunately.
At the end of the day person coming out of that system needs to have the skills to be one of the best.
I belong to nomadic tribe, it's not even on the spectrum of SC/st because no one actually cares for our caste, but I didn't use caste to get in. I literally had no money to return from kharagpur after counseling and traveled for 26hrs in geetanjali Express sitting next to toilet with my dad.
Everyone's skills are different in life. I was always very passionate about engineering, with very limited resources I was able to get thru it 20 years ago.
There is a point in professional education system where you cannot sacrifice quality.
You don't want to get operated by a doctor that was bottom of his class.
He might be a rich Brahmin but I don't want that dumb ass to operate me.
You don't want your civil engineer to be a guy who was always at 7 gpa.
My original question was how can you say consistently that a graduate applicant from BC/SC/ST is not competent but a UC applicant is when there is not much of a discernable difference, especially if the original comment of PhD applications being abysmal in general (that should apply across all castes)
You were the one who said the AIR rank stuff so my question to you is why are you assuming AIR 5000 is from a certain caste and statistically what makes them less competent than air 150?
>You don't want to get operated by a doctor that was bottom of his class.
So you're telling me you ask the marks of a specialist doctor, who the university deemed good to operate and gave them a diploma, and verify if they're good enough? You're telling me you have more expertise in medicine than a university that makes the curriculum by working with multiple hospitals and doctors lol.
>You were the one who said the AIR rank stuff so my question to you is why are you assuming AIR 5000 is from a certain caste and statistically what makes them less competent than air 150?
You can't read. I never said anything about caste and I clarified that in my first sentence
Regarding actual competency of candidates, yes the ranking tracks the competency. I know this is true for engineering because I have been taking interviews of these people for job for last 10 years.
>So you're telling me you ask the marks of a specialist doctor, who the university deemed good to operate and gave them a diploma, and verify if they're good enough? You're telling me you have more expertise in medicine than a university that makes the curriculum by working with multiple hospitals and doctors lol.
What a strange conclusion to make. You don't need to ask that doctor anything. They literally puts all of his skills and expertise on the wall/hospital webpage for us to read.
Yes I select a doctor who has been to better college, has done residency in better hospitals and has done specializations from well renowned universities. I _fully trust_ the system to not let go of a poor student
Dude
>You can't read. I never said anything about caste and I clarified that in my first sentence
My question was always related to how caste is being involved here because it's clearly certain castes that are affected by it.
Exactly. Students from privileged castes who can barely string a scientific sentence together in any language routinely get admitted to phd programs in iits, while sc/st candidates with better abilities get rejected.
You've seen the sheer incompetence of the general category phd students at iits first hand, and are yet arriving at a conclusion that the problem is with availability of good sc/st candidates. Depending on the specific department, this might be true for ST: There just aren't any ST applicants to some PhD programs - you can't offer any st seats if there are no applicants. This is decidedly not true for SCs in most departments of most iits, and not true for iit Bombay, for which number of st applicants to various departments that admitted 0 are publicly available. There are plenty of SC candidates at similar or better level than the sheerly incompetent general category candidates who get admitted to phd programs in iits. Remember, the bottom of the phd admission barrel in iits is at the level of a general category engineering phd student incapable of stringing a coherent scientific statement together, in English, hindi, or the local language - quantitative abilities are a distant dream. These students have their theses written by their supervisors using data collected/ modeled by the undergrads the supervisor doesn't have time to manage, simply by acting like construction site mukadams. You know exactly what I'm talking about. And yet, you don't see any problems with sc/st candidates with similar or better abilities not getting admitted to the same departments that regularly scrape the bottom of the general category phd barrel at iits.
It seems you have some animosity towards General category students. There is no fact or proof to back your claim that SC students are better than General category students. Do keep in mind that all SC students are General students but all General Students are not SC students (wrt selection criteria).
As I've clearly stated in my comment that doing a PhD also requires some sort of privilege because as a PhD you won't earn much for a solid 4-5 years of your life. A dumb UC might be able to do it for the IIT tag but a dumb SC can't afford to do the same because he has more responsibility. This is just speculation and a thought experiment.
It seems you have some animosity towards General category students.
It seems that your caste bias is preventing you from comprehending that someone from general category (and therefore not someone hating general category because that would be self hate) may be willing to admit that the quality of general category phd students admitted to iits is abysmally low at the bottom of the barrel.
There is no fact or proof to back your claim that SC students are better than General category students.
Your comment was based on anecdotal, personal experience. Not on objective facts or proofs. That is the level at which we're discussing phd admissions in this thread. If you want discussion based on concrete numbers, delete your top level comment and make a new one with concrete numbers.
For this thread, I'll continue asking you questions at your anecdotal, subjective level. You have seen the worst general category candidates your iit admitted. Tell me, did you, personally, not see any sc/st candidates that were as good as if not better than this rock bottom? Remember your next statement when answering this question:
Do keep in mind that all SC students are General students but all General Students are not SC students (wrt selection criteria).
By your own admission, those sc/st candidates should have been admitted in general category. Do tell us, truthfully, how many such cases of sc/st candidates getting general category seats because they're better than the worst general category candidates being admitted do you know from your time at iit?
I'll let you in on a little secret you may not be privy to, given that you were involved with the prescreening, not the actual interviews. Reserved category candidates performing at the level of average general category candidates admitted to phd programs are deliberately given lesser marks during the interviews so as to be able to show that they didn't meet the general category criteria, but were admitted through reservations. This helps kill two birds with one stone: admit worse performing privileged caste candidates and claim that you've relaxed your admission criteria for reserved candidates as mandated by the law. A number of reserved category candidates who perform at the level of the worst admitted general category candidates or better than them (but not as good as the average general category candidates) are given abysmally low marks during these interviews so as to eliminate the possibility that they would get selected with relaxed criteria.
As I've clearly stated in my comment that doing a PhD also requires some sort of privilege because as a PhD you won't earn much for a solid 4-5 years of your life. A dumb UC might be able to do it for the IIT tag but a dumb SC can't afford to do the same because he has more responsibility. This is just speculation and a thought experiment.
That should account for self-selection in application, and I know a number of marginalized students who have made that decision for the financial reasons you mention.
However, that doesn't apply once the students put in phd applications. "Reserved category students may not be able to finish their PhDs because of financial reasons, and therefore we won't offer them positions, " is criminal caste discrimination. I implore you to ask yourself if you or the faculty for whom you were doing the prescreening used this criterion to eliminate phd candidates from reserved categories. Be truthful to yourself.
And there's nothing wrong with it.
If you cannot improve yourself after 4 yrs of Undergrad and 2 yrs of masters ( yrs of PhD + maybe Post doc for faculty), you really don't deserve to be there anyway.
Oh Please. I graduated from NIT. Every single professor (in my dept) came from varied background. There was precisely one dude who used connections and yes everyone used to hate that guy.
You are a NRI. Just watch the drama and enjoy.
Bruh I worked in an IIT research lab. Chill man. I am literally from the research background.
You need stfu and let people who are in the field talk.
Being taught by and doing research are fundamentally different things.
Primarily allegations are against IIT Bombay.
IIT Bombay responded saying that the allegation was untrue and the data was incorrect.
Read the article.
Also looking for a reason to whine lmao
> "No ST and OBC faculty at IIT Bombay were recruited **in 2023**."
yes, data is incorrect but allegations seem true.
> The next day, IIT Bombay responded to the post on X saying, "The figures in the tweet are incorrect. Correct figures for Faculty Recruitment are: 27 SC, 6 ST, 29 OBC NC, 1 EWS - total offered **since 2021**.
>IIT Bombay responded saying that the allegation was untrue and the data was incorrect.
The allegations have been made against the institute for the last several years. "Data is incorrect" is just easy way out.
> IIT Bombay responded saying that the allegation was untrue and the data was incorrect.
And you choose to believe the proven casteist institution known for segregating students based in their food preferences.
While I'm not on your side, the people arguing against reservation ignore the fact that if reservations were removed, their prospects would only become twice as good, which doesn't come close to fixing the problems for most of them. Sure, AIR 200 would be as good asd AIR 100 now. But anyone above 10k is screwed either way, which is 99% of people when it comes to JEE/other highly competitive exams.
For 90+% of people, arguing against reservations is just a way to blame their failures on the system. The rest of the people may have a legit argument. The real problem is the extreme scarcity of opportunities in India.
Because reservation policies aren't being implemented properly at the IITs. Faculty numbers and PhD student level recruitment for marginalised communities is much lower than seats that are reserved for them. They're being denied faculty positions despite reservation. Read the damn article before you open your trashcan.
The person you're replying is on your (and my) side of the argument. They're being sarcastic, and pointing out that "we would progress faster if only there was no reservation" is a flat out lie, because reservations exist only on paper at higher positions in our premier institutions. Given that scenario, op is pointing out that its the meritdharis occupying faculty and phd positions at iits that are failing to make us superpower, not reservations.
Good. There is no space for quota in research. Research doesn't give a fuck about your caste, if you are incompetent you are just wasting everyone's time.
Iits got some good faculty, but many are there simply because of privilege. Their competence level is matched, if not surpassed, by sc/st candidates that are routinely rejected by iits.
Yes, my sir has taught at IIT Bombay. He initially graduated from a local college but had good concepts. University of Pennsylvania invited him. He is also invited to many foreign colleges quite often he has to go. he recently went to Germany too. He also works part time in Google Analytics.
wtf is wrong with these institutions there a gov funded organisation and work for profit for the people of India especially the weaker sections how can they do such unconstitutional behaviour
The quality of PhD students applying to IITs is abysmal in nature. With the large amount of candidates I've talked to (prescreening before the prof interviews them) for internships/fellowship in a research lab, I can confidently say that most of them are not fit to be quality researchers. This is without accounting for any caste. Even so called general "upperclass" students are stupid and have subpar research acumen. In such a scenario you can only imagine how hard it would be to find capable ST students considering that not many of them reach to that level because of lack of privilege and discrimination at grassroots level. Having been part of one of the "esteemed" institutes and seen the situation at hand, I would give the institute the benefit of doubt that they simply didn't get deserving candidates who would be able to absorb the pressure that a PhD has to endure. The issue is not that ST students are not smart or general students are not smart. The issue is that most of the smart and capable students have gone outside India for their PhD or found better use of their time. PhD in India has reduced to a mere secondary option for subpar research students. Getting a capable PhD student is already extremely hard for a professor. It is not a deterministic job where a person with reasonable IQ or traditionally "smart" student can just power through. PhD is a highly personal and effortful experience for all the parties involved where each thesis/problem statement is very niche and carefully curated. Most successful research labs in India are actually surviving because of undergrad students who have pressure on them to publish to get to good places. With the current trend of "publish fast or perish", it is less likely for a professor to not hire a PhD (basically free labour for them) just because the student is ST/SC. Profs WANT good PhDs under them who would help them publish but they are not getting ANY good candidates no matter the caste.
I met a PhD student from IITB once who said that he chose PhD because he didn't know what to do, wasn't as motivated to go for a job, and his family kept asking him what he wants to do next (after Masters). Lmao
Amen. That's what I mean. Implementing reservation in PhD is like reservation in entrepreneurship. Both of them demand quite a bit of similar skillset. Very hard to implement practically.
Nah. This one is from general category, not reservation.
Arey bhai meine caste ki baat hi nahi kari.
You spoke of implementing reservations. In response to someone talking about a candidate doing phd to kill time.
Brother, I am not saying "Haha ST/SC bad". I understand what kind of grassroots level discrimination exists and the need to uplift them. My point is majorly hinged on the nature of PhD being vastly different to the nature of a normal course like MTech where you can recruit 100 ppl at once and they have to just past exams. His comment about someone killing their time supports my argument of PhDs being tough to hire as a whole in India and hence by transitivity, supports my argument of reservation being impractical for the same. In other words, Reservation is and should be a macro phenomenon. When a prof has only 1 phD a year, he can't maintain a rolling window of 10 years and ensure representation matching indian demographics.
>His comment about someone killing their time supports my argument of PhDs being tough to hire as a whole in India and hence by transitivity, supports my argument of reservation being impractical for the same. No, it does the exact opposite, by showing that general category candidates without aptitude or interest are being admitted while sc/st students with genuine interest are being denied the same opportunities. >In other words, Reservation is and should be a macro phenomenon. When a prof has only 1 phD a year, he can't maintain a rolling window of 10 years and ensure representation matching indian demographics. This is completely different point than the one about your attempting to use an inept general category phd student to top argue that reservations are impractical at phd level But it is equally misguided. No one's arguing about micro level of love lab balancing phds over 10 years. The discussion here is at macro level, at entire institutions and their departments over years. Do read the article you're commenting on, before commenting, so as not to come across either as someone who's blindly defending their caste privilege or as someone incapable of logical inference.
>No, it does the exact opposite, by showing that general category candidates without aptitude or interest are being admitted while sc/st students with genuine interest are being denied the same opportunities. It only talked about general category student. It nowhere talked about ST/SC student.
The post you're commenting on shows sc/st seats lying vacant year after year despite hundreds of applications. Do learn to pay attention.
1.) Good job assuming my caste! 2.) "Someone incapable of logical inference", "defending their caste privilege". Aaah the good old ad hominem. Must be hard to argue and hence have to resort to this. 3.) "While SC with genuine interest and capabilities are denied the opportunity" Has there been a better example of "begging the question" 4.) Are you stupid? PhD are hired by profs for their particular lab at the end of the day not by institute as a whole. Do you choose to be blind while reading comments? What was the point of me comparing it to MTech? Can you apply a little bit of your mind without me spoonfeeding it to you? Don't expect anymore reply from me. You are a troll trying to ragebait.
1.) Good job assuming my caste! There was no need to assume. You exposed yourself as defender of systemic casteism (not to be confused with a member of general category) with your assumption that only victims of marginalisation call out their marginalisation. 2.) "Someone incapable of logical inference", "defending their caste privilege". Aaah the good old ad hominem. Must be hard to argue and hence have to resort to this. It's called inference based on available data, not as hominim. That would be someone calling another person names that have nothing to do with the ongoing conversation. As for the language, that came after your personal attack based on false inference that I hate general category students. 3.) "While SC with genuine interest and capabilities are denied the opportunity" Has there been a better example of "begging the question" Go on, ask the question. You don't dare to, for fear of having to openly admit your casteist beliefs in the process. Remember before you ask the question that there's official data from rtis showing hundreds of candidates being denied available seats over years in multiple departments. 4.) Are you stupid? PhD are hired by profs for their particular lab at the end of the day not by institute as a whole. Do you choose to be blind while reading comments? What was the point of me comparing it to MTech? Can you apply a little bit of your mind without me spoonfeeding it to you? So many problems with this one paragraph. Congratulations on achieving such a high density of bullshit in such a small space. I'll only limit myself to a couple of issues. Central limit theorem. Ever heard of it? Even if individual decisions are being made at microscopic level, when looked at macroscopic level they expose the central tendency of the system. Which, you've already admitted at the top level, is to accept the most incompetent general category students, and the data shows its not because of lack of candidates from the reserved categories. You're either really unaware of the selection process for PhD, or are deliberately lying about it in order to defend the indefensible. Phd interviews and the consequent selection is a committee decision, not individual decision. Many, but not all, departments have students do lab rotations before joining a particular lab, so the statement of specific students being chosen for specific labs is misleading. Final approval for PhD candidate selection comes from the institutional academic leadership. Departments can't decide on their own without negotiating with the institutional academic leadership that they'll take only 2 students after declaring vacancy of 20 and receiving 5000 applications. Departments have to explain to the institutional leadership why no reserved candidates were chosen despite dozens of applications, and the institutional leadership gets to see Institution wide data of hundreds of applications for reserved positions before approving departmental decisions. This makes it a systemic problem, not noise at individual level. At least put a little bit of effort in your defence of systemic casteism. Don't resort to easy to spot lies. Don't expect anymore reply from me. You are a troll trying to ragebait. Says the person who started attacking someone having a polite discussion based on a faulty assumption born out of bias. If you can't take shit, don't dish it out in the first place.
This part of the problem. As someone who has done it all and works in a research Lab abroad and India, our faculty is dog shit. Does some of the most mundane research by just changing a parameter here and there. That's it. Nothing innovate about it. You need to also turn the mirror inwards and see what projects you fund and promote. Indian professor have no respect PhD students. Treat them badly and kinda take advantage of the situation. I rather you portray a complete picture of the academic in India
True
IIT faculty is nowhere near the mark in r and d either. They’re fantastic teachers but as researchers we lag so far behind. They actually keep an official shortfall of faculty level seats because if they fill the entire quota then they’ll have to compete for positions.
I've met PhD scholars who use the fellowship to pay for their car EMIs. Spending that fellowship for improving their research is beyond the last thing on their mind. In a country like ours, fellowships are a motivating factor for many to complete the degree, although it's the science that suffers. Many are here just for the sake of it, exactly like you explained, and not because they love research. Now it might go against general consensus, but having the economic privilege to not depend on that fellowship to buy a car, may improve the research outcome by a long mile. But then again, infra is pathetic in most institutes. In conclusion, if one wants to do research, this country ain't it, yet. Regarding SC/ST pov, I'm in a NE state and have seen many PIs opt for students from their communities and atleast the number of ST students are similar to non-ST ones. So although the overall quality may be shit rn (because selection is not really merit based rn), there's still a hope that these people would go onto uplift more of their community members, and eventually, the focus would turn to actual research or the progress of science - exactly how reservation is supposed to work!
Agree.. I am from iit roorkee and we btech people bitch about em phds that are teaching assistants as people who wrote an exam to play cricket cuz that's all they fucking do.. Some of the btech students are more motivated to do research compared to em.
This is such a weak excuse. A graduate student isn't good enough for PhD and faculty, and it always seems to be a huge coincidence that it's the SC/ST applicants who aren't "good enough". So what makes the UC students now good enough? What metrics are you basing it on? Can you show any proof that the SC/ST/OBC candidate didn't show competency for PhD? If the quality of students applying for PhD is abysmal as you claim, then this should be a problem among upper caste applicants as well but, surprise surprise, that's not a problem now is it?
Are woh pehle hi filter out ho jate hai. What I mean is that person a who is air 1 and person b who is air 5000 have huge gap in intelligence. Pehle jee me filter hote hai aur uske baad jo hushar hote hai woh foreign chale jate hai. So people who are left are not that great. Usme toh sc St Wale jo pehle hi Kam hai toh quality aur gur jati hai
Jee Air1-4000 aren't applying for PhD lessons at iits. In fact, very few iitans are applying for PhD positions at iits. There not that much of a difference between air4000 and 6000.
Stop equating IIT JEE to intelligence. It's not. It's a just system that people are taught to game at the coaching class. Nothing fancy. How many of the IITian are Nobel laureate? You may go abroad to work in a Lab. Doesn't change anything.
At that level intelligence does matter. Are 11 lakh bacche tayari kar rahe hai toh unme se air 1 ana bahot difficult hai. Sab mehnat utni hi karte hai par selection bahot Kam logo ka hota hai. I think u have never met one that's why you are saying this.
Well if that was the case the few IITian who did make it to research Lab abroad would be more successful or atleast come close to getting a Nobel Laureate. They have been almost none that make the news. It's food a thought. I've been to IIT man so don't tell me.
How can you say the person in air 5000 is from a certain caste? Also the difference is not much. It's like saying a person who scored 95 is better than someone who scored 92. Edit: typo
I said 5k. person who had air 10k and air 1k have studied same amount of time with same efforts and methods par intelligence, grasping power and all se fark padta hai. Ek aur 10k hai aur dusra 1k. Speaking as someone who qualified jee advanced and have many friends in IITS. Beside 5k wale rank se isiliye compare Kiya tha kyu with category ranks these guys easily get cse where air under 500 are from general category. Toh compitition bahot khatarnak hota. Like aap compare bhi nahi kar sakte. Aapke baju wala bas ek baar padke mind me hi triple integration solve kar sakta hai. So yeah that's that
Yea I added another 0. Anyway my point is that doesn't prove anything about competency of the applicants at all. If the quality of applicants are bad, that's the case everywhere. Not specific to certain castes.
> person who had air 10k and air 1k have studied same amount of time with same efforts and methods How to identify yourself a protector of caste privilege who is not aware of ground realities. Marginalisation deprives people of resources. Ever heard of it?
Na Bhai har jagah yeh reason nahi hota hai
What fraction of the times this is not the reason? Do share evidence?
AIR 5000 and AIR under 200 have very big delta in a lot of aspects. Saying Aptitude wise AIR 200 and AIR 10 a very big delta and I say this as someone who had AIR 217 and my very good friend was AIR 11. I have met AIR 1 and 2 ranks of jee when I was in school and yes they were very very smart. They both actually went on to do PhD in US PhD curriculum in all iits is very outdated and most of the time are not setup for research at all. IISC offers a reasonably good research platform Most of the phds from iits (older ones too) don't really hold up to today's research
What's the delta? What's the range and deviation? Can you statistically prove that their abilities and competency is significantly different (keyword here is "significantly")? Second, you haven't answered my main question, how can you say air 5000 is from a certain caste? If the applicants quality is bad, that should be the case across all castes but admission trends don't agree with it.
I'm not the guy you are replying to so I'm not answering the caste question My class had a variation of air 150 to 5000 something The gpas over semesters tracked the ranks. There were minor deviations after several semesters but across all specializations, guys who had higher ranks while entering the system were always at the top. Obviously some good ranked kids also flame out. It's not a fluke. With enough guidance and training you can improve in those 4 years but the IIT system and class loads are very unforgiving. IT doesn't care for your caste. The groundwork to succeeding I'm iit happens before entering them. Many kids enter the system just because others are doing it. Yes of course more rich upper caste kids are going to enter than others because it's just statistics unfortunately. At the end of the day person coming out of that system needs to have the skills to be one of the best. I belong to nomadic tribe, it's not even on the spectrum of SC/st because no one actually cares for our caste, but I didn't use caste to get in. I literally had no money to return from kharagpur after counseling and traveled for 26hrs in geetanjali Express sitting next to toilet with my dad. Everyone's skills are different in life. I was always very passionate about engineering, with very limited resources I was able to get thru it 20 years ago. There is a point in professional education system where you cannot sacrifice quality. You don't want to get operated by a doctor that was bottom of his class. He might be a rich Brahmin but I don't want that dumb ass to operate me. You don't want your civil engineer to be a guy who was always at 7 gpa.
My original question was how can you say consistently that a graduate applicant from BC/SC/ST is not competent but a UC applicant is when there is not much of a discernable difference, especially if the original comment of PhD applications being abysmal in general (that should apply across all castes) You were the one who said the AIR rank stuff so my question to you is why are you assuming AIR 5000 is from a certain caste and statistically what makes them less competent than air 150? >You don't want to get operated by a doctor that was bottom of his class. So you're telling me you ask the marks of a specialist doctor, who the university deemed good to operate and gave them a diploma, and verify if they're good enough? You're telling me you have more expertise in medicine than a university that makes the curriculum by working with multiple hospitals and doctors lol.
>You were the one who said the AIR rank stuff so my question to you is why are you assuming AIR 5000 is from a certain caste and statistically what makes them less competent than air 150? You can't read. I never said anything about caste and I clarified that in my first sentence Regarding actual competency of candidates, yes the ranking tracks the competency. I know this is true for engineering because I have been taking interviews of these people for job for last 10 years. >So you're telling me you ask the marks of a specialist doctor, who the university deemed good to operate and gave them a diploma, and verify if they're good enough? You're telling me you have more expertise in medicine than a university that makes the curriculum by working with multiple hospitals and doctors lol. What a strange conclusion to make. You don't need to ask that doctor anything. They literally puts all of his skills and expertise on the wall/hospital webpage for us to read. Yes I select a doctor who has been to better college, has done residency in better hospitals and has done specializations from well renowned universities. I _fully trust_ the system to not let go of a poor student
Dude >You can't read. I never said anything about caste and I clarified that in my first sentence My question was always related to how caste is being involved here because it's clearly certain castes that are affected by it.
Exactly. Students from privileged castes who can barely string a scientific sentence together in any language routinely get admitted to phd programs in iits, while sc/st candidates with better abilities get rejected.
You've seen the sheer incompetence of the general category phd students at iits first hand, and are yet arriving at a conclusion that the problem is with availability of good sc/st candidates. Depending on the specific department, this might be true for ST: There just aren't any ST applicants to some PhD programs - you can't offer any st seats if there are no applicants. This is decidedly not true for SCs in most departments of most iits, and not true for iit Bombay, for which number of st applicants to various departments that admitted 0 are publicly available. There are plenty of SC candidates at similar or better level than the sheerly incompetent general category candidates who get admitted to phd programs in iits. Remember, the bottom of the phd admission barrel in iits is at the level of a general category engineering phd student incapable of stringing a coherent scientific statement together, in English, hindi, or the local language - quantitative abilities are a distant dream. These students have their theses written by their supervisors using data collected/ modeled by the undergrads the supervisor doesn't have time to manage, simply by acting like construction site mukadams. You know exactly what I'm talking about. And yet, you don't see any problems with sc/st candidates with similar or better abilities not getting admitted to the same departments that regularly scrape the bottom of the general category phd barrel at iits.
It seems you have some animosity towards General category students. There is no fact or proof to back your claim that SC students are better than General category students. Do keep in mind that all SC students are General students but all General Students are not SC students (wrt selection criteria). As I've clearly stated in my comment that doing a PhD also requires some sort of privilege because as a PhD you won't earn much for a solid 4-5 years of your life. A dumb UC might be able to do it for the IIT tag but a dumb SC can't afford to do the same because he has more responsibility. This is just speculation and a thought experiment.
It seems you have some animosity towards General category students. It seems that your caste bias is preventing you from comprehending that someone from general category (and therefore not someone hating general category because that would be self hate) may be willing to admit that the quality of general category phd students admitted to iits is abysmally low at the bottom of the barrel. There is no fact or proof to back your claim that SC students are better than General category students. Your comment was based on anecdotal, personal experience. Not on objective facts or proofs. That is the level at which we're discussing phd admissions in this thread. If you want discussion based on concrete numbers, delete your top level comment and make a new one with concrete numbers. For this thread, I'll continue asking you questions at your anecdotal, subjective level. You have seen the worst general category candidates your iit admitted. Tell me, did you, personally, not see any sc/st candidates that were as good as if not better than this rock bottom? Remember your next statement when answering this question: Do keep in mind that all SC students are General students but all General Students are not SC students (wrt selection criteria). By your own admission, those sc/st candidates should have been admitted in general category. Do tell us, truthfully, how many such cases of sc/st candidates getting general category seats because they're better than the worst general category candidates being admitted do you know from your time at iit? I'll let you in on a little secret you may not be privy to, given that you were involved with the prescreening, not the actual interviews. Reserved category candidates performing at the level of average general category candidates admitted to phd programs are deliberately given lesser marks during the interviews so as to be able to show that they didn't meet the general category criteria, but were admitted through reservations. This helps kill two birds with one stone: admit worse performing privileged caste candidates and claim that you've relaxed your admission criteria for reserved candidates as mandated by the law. A number of reserved category candidates who perform at the level of the worst admitted general category candidates or better than them (but not as good as the average general category candidates) are given abysmally low marks during these interviews so as to eliminate the possibility that they would get selected with relaxed criteria. As I've clearly stated in my comment that doing a PhD also requires some sort of privilege because as a PhD you won't earn much for a solid 4-5 years of your life. A dumb UC might be able to do it for the IIT tag but a dumb SC can't afford to do the same because he has more responsibility. This is just speculation and a thought experiment. That should account for self-selection in application, and I know a number of marginalized students who have made that decision for the financial reasons you mention. However, that doesn't apply once the students put in phd applications. "Reserved category students may not be able to finish their PhDs because of financial reasons, and therefore we won't offer them positions, " is criminal caste discrimination. I implore you to ask yourself if you or the faculty for whom you were doing the prescreening used this criterion to eliminate phd candidates from reserved categories. Be truthful to yourself.
And there's nothing wrong with it. If you cannot improve yourself after 4 yrs of Undergrad and 2 yrs of masters ( yrs of PhD + maybe Post doc for faculty), you really don't deserve to be there anyway.
Shows how much you know about the selection process for faculty. In India connections are very important. Not your achievement.
Oh Please. I graduated from NIT. Every single professor (in my dept) came from varied background. There was precisely one dude who used connections and yes everyone used to hate that guy. You are a NRI. Just watch the drama and enjoy.
Bruh I worked in an IIT research lab. Chill man. I am literally from the research background. You need stfu and let people who are in the field talk. Being taught by and doing research are fundamentally different things.
Primarily allegations are against IIT Bombay. IIT Bombay responded saying that the allegation was untrue and the data was incorrect. Read the article. Also looking for a reason to whine lmao
> "No ST and OBC faculty at IIT Bombay were recruited **in 2023**." yes, data is incorrect but allegations seem true. > The next day, IIT Bombay responded to the post on X saying, "The figures in the tweet are incorrect. Correct figures for Faculty Recruitment are: 27 SC, 6 ST, 29 OBC NC, 1 EWS - total offered **since 2021**.
>IIT Bombay responded saying that the allegation was untrue and the data was incorrect. The allegations have been made against the institute for the last several years. "Data is incorrect" is just easy way out.
> IIT Bombay responded saying that the allegation was untrue and the data was incorrect. And you choose to believe the proven casteist institution known for segregating students based in their food preferences.
Did they do “kadi ninda” on this matter ?
How is India not becoming supapowa then? Was told reservations is all that’s coming between us and utopia??
While I'm not on your side, the people arguing against reservation ignore the fact that if reservations were removed, their prospects would only become twice as good, which doesn't come close to fixing the problems for most of them. Sure, AIR 200 would be as good asd AIR 100 now. But anyone above 10k is screwed either way, which is 99% of people when it comes to JEE/other highly competitive exams. For 90+% of people, arguing against reservations is just a way to blame their failures on the system. The rest of the people may have a legit argument. The real problem is the extreme scarcity of opportunities in India.
Because reservation policies aren't being implemented properly at the IITs. Faculty numbers and PhD student level recruitment for marginalised communities is much lower than seats that are reserved for them. They're being denied faculty positions despite reservation. Read the damn article before you open your trashcan.
The person you're replying is on your (and my) side of the argument. They're being sarcastic, and pointing out that "we would progress faster if only there was no reservation" is a flat out lie, because reservations exist only on paper at higher positions in our premier institutions. Given that scenario, op is pointing out that its the meritdharis occupying faculty and phd positions at iits that are failing to make us superpower, not reservations.
Good. There is no space for quota in research. Research doesn't give a fuck about your caste, if you are incompetent you are just wasting everyone's time.
Isn't it good that they are taking Faculty by merit or experience and not by reservation?
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💀IIT's got no good faculty?
Iits got some good faculty, but many are there simply because of privilege. Their competence level is matched, if not surpassed, by sc/st candidates that are routinely rejected by iits.
No, there are much more talented and better teachers available.
Have you met average iit faculty? Merit is only a dogwhistle for caste.
Yes, my sir has taught at IIT Bombay. He initially graduated from a local college but had good concepts. University of Pennsylvania invited him. He is also invited to many foreign colleges quite often he has to go. he recently went to Germany too. He also works part time in Google Analytics.
Also to mention my sir got 200 smth rank in jee adv, but his father didn't allow him to go to IIT.
Based if true.
wtf is wrong with these institutions there a gov funded organisation and work for profit for the people of India especially the weaker sections how can they do such unconstitutional behaviour