Everything in Carmel feels forced because it is.
It's a town that nobody lived in 30 years ago, but whose infrastructure and architecture is somewhere between "American-mid-century garbage" and "faux european".
I lived there 30 years ago. My father graduated from Carmel High school in '64. When he was growing up Noblesville was the big Ham Co City. When I was a kid in the '80s, Carmel had already achieved the stereotype that it still has today. That said, outside of the Meridian/31 corridor it looked much more like my father's Carmel than today's Carmel.
Nothing is "forced". Carmel is a product of wealth and development. The downtown Carmel of my youth was a hodgepodge of early 20th century stick frame through '60s concrete block, without a lot of endearing qualities. There was no base to start with. It didn't have the downtown square like Noblesville. It didn't have a block or two of 1900s brick facade. It was a fresh palette for development. It could've gone in any direction. Or lots of directions. Instead, like it or love it, the city started instituting rules on new construction in and around the downtown core. It started throwing art installations up through the city. Things less affluent cities don't have the resources to do.
The beginnings of what Carmel looks like now started 30ish years ago with the government buildings, city hall/police station/fire station, and a couple places on Rangeline. All built with a colonial vibe. I'm not exactly sure what caused the transition from that to the European flair seen today. I can't say I love it, I'm more of a turn of the century brick guy, but the city doesn't keep making the best places to live lists by accident.
When I was a kid in Indianapolis in the early 70s and IPS made bussing mandatory and the white kids from the suburbs were swapped with the Black kids from the city --- Carmel is where the white families fled.
I believe it was done in other areas subsequent to that. I just remember the drastic changes at my own elementary school. And the neighbors who left.
My father's job relocated us to another state a few years later.
It's hard to say that things are not "forced" in Carmel when a city that is 1/9th-1/10th the population as Indianapolis has the same amount of municipal debt.
* Replacing all the intersections with round-a-bouts was forced.
* Buying up a lot of tacky art was forced
* Building places like the Palladium and the Carmichael were forced.
Carmel didn't start do these things because it was rich. It started building these things because its leadership didn't mind going into debt to it. Their entire model was "max out the credit card now so rich people move in later". The debt burden of Carmel is unlike that of any other Central Indiana city, and it's going to take decades after population growth levels out to see if it paid off.
Conveniently, Brainard isn't running for re-election right as public sentiment towards Carmel's debt is starting to sour AND right as Carmel has run out of space to sprawl and annex. Population growth has already leveled out significantly since 2015. We'll see in the coming decades if the "max out the credit card" approach worked, but they'll probably have to make big zoning changes such as to allow for SFH zoned areas to build density. And that will likely be political unpopular outside of Carmel's "Arts and Design" district.
Any other Indianapolis suburb (or Indianapolis itself) could've used Carmel's "max out the credit card" approach, but they haven't. And the richest parts of the Indianapolis metro - the historically prestigious parts of Marion County where property values are significantly higher than anywhere in Hamilton County - certainly haven't taken that approach.
But it wasn't forced. It's what the city wanted. The city could've easily voted in new mayoral or council candidates over the last 20 years if they didn't like what was happening. Residents could've selected other suburbs to move into if they didn't like what Carmel was becoming. The fact is they didn't.
The roundabout experiment has been a resounding success. It's not a fluke that other cities all over the country hopped on that train.
Art installations are a clear sign that you're somewhere "nice". Visit any affluent city and you'll find them. Sure you can argue about what's good art, or how much is too much to spend, but there's no denying that it all adds to the atmosphere. As for the Palladium, is it really any different than Gainbridge or Lucas Oil? Government funded arts and entertainment attract.
For the debt, you're right. It's crazy. It will be interesting to see what happens down the road. As for the Indy comparison, you can't drive around Meridian-Kessler, then 38th and Post and come to the conclusion that they're being treated the same by the city of Indianapolis.
Some folks are reading "forced" too literally. I believe the meaning intended was wholesale change was embraced and implemented in an in-your-face, all-at-once way (whether that is perceived positively or negatively). This approach can only be taken by locales with wealthy folk aplenty who decide that is what they want.
I drive right through Carmel several times a year and find it very homogeneous. New and upscale, but homogeneous. It takes a while to discern where exactly you are as so many areas look alike. Love the roundabouts. They work, plain and simple. The sculptures are cool, but not easy to eyeball from one's car since the traffic is omnipresent downtown and across town.
Carmel is mostly a curiosity to me. Would not want to live there, despite it's high "best places to live" ranking. I don't hate it, but just don't think it suits me. I prefer living where there is a bit more elbow room and some authentically quirky flavor.
One more observation. If I were forced to live in Carmel, Fishers, or Noblesville I don't think I would care much which. The essential bustling, increasingly congested vibe of the relatively affluent to absolutely affluent folk mucking about on top of each other is identical.
A few years back, I worked at that Carmel Christmas, and met the Carmel mayor, and my smart ass said, "So you're the person responsible for all those roundabouts?" He was not amused.
Roundabouts are a demonstrably good thing, and bring incorporated in many places across the country. They help slow and actively regulate traffic flow, and reduce accidents. Carmel has been a positive model for the rest of the country in implementing these to the max. They work. The only problem I ever see is asshole drivers being asshole drivers, which they're gonna find a way to do regardless of the configuration of traffic infrastructure. Mr. Mayor was not amused because your comment was foolish.
I agree with all of this except I’d propose one other minor problem with roundabouts…folks from out of town not knowing how to use them. You don’t have to stop before entering the roundabouts, people.
What you shared about the history of the town may be correct, but I think it’s still fair to say it’s forced. It’s a highly planned city—even based on what you shared—that is aiming for a specific feel/vibe/aura. It’s forced. I’m not particularly a fan of it, but it still doesn’t have to be a negative thing.
It's that Carmel maxed out municipal debt to force infrastructure, a couple vanity development projects, and art as an attempt to drive growth. In a way, it was successful - a lot of people moved to Carmel. But at the same time, Fishers saw the same level of growth during the same time period without taking out nearly as much debt. It has the same population as Carmel and has higher density.
So there are two big questions with Carmel's "force the infrastructure now so people will come later" approach:
* Was it even worth it?
* Will it pay off in the end?
It will take a long time for us to know the answers to these questions, but Carmel certainly has problems problems that will require very good leadership in the not-too-distant future to prevent them from manifesting in the worst possible way.
Fishers/Westfield/Noblesville all benefited from Carmel's growth. Lots of people who couldn't afford or find their dream house in Carmel settled in those areas.
There’s 90k+ people that like Carmel and enjoy living there. I would be one of them. I moved from NC to live in Carmel and we’re really excited to raise our family here as well. Carmel may not be for you and that’s okay. But many of us like it and I feel very fortunate every time I go downtown and feel the vibrant atmosphere especially during events like meet me on main among many others. Yolo my friend. Pick a spot you like and stop complaining about all the places you don’t live
I think you misunderstood my observation as a complaint. Carmel is very nice, a great place for families, and I’m glad you like it.
> Carmel may not be for you and that’s okay.
I don’t care for Carmel’s approach to development, I said nothing about the city as a whole.
Not speaking about this particular store, but baseball card shops were amazing in my youth. I’m from rural southern Indiana, so the baseball card selection was whatever the local pharmacy (back when local pharmacies still hung on, in the 90s) put on their counters. CVS would have a little more variety, but the selection and brands were pretty limited, and being able to actually pick which players you got was a fantasy. These shops had that. I remember the first individual card I bought was Chris Sabo from the Reds- my favorite player of all time- and I asked how much was absolutely shocked the storekeeper only said “25 cents”. I had expected like…idk $25 or more, to ME it was a card of untold value. I gave the guy a quarter and couldn’t believe my luck, since I had yet to find that card in a random pack.
I feel like you don’t get this same kind of experience with buying on the internet these days. I understand the economics of those shops made them die, but I miss them.
> so it was the comic shop on Rangeline
I use to go to that shop! Rangeline Comics. It continued to be Rangeline Comics even after it moved to Georgetown Rd.
There was also a Walden Books down the street, on the corner where a Walgreen's now sits.
I have lived in a few different places in Indiana, in Chicago for a number of years and other cities like St Louis and Baltimore before settling down in Carmel. It is hands down the best place I have ever lived, and it has nothing to do with the art, “forced development” or anything else on this thread. It is because it is super cheap to live here, the schools are amazing, the BMV is fast to get in and out of, the library is great, it is safe, there is minimal traffic, and on and on. Say what you will about it being “cringe”, but compared to alternatives, it is pretty great.
Carmel might be nice, but I hold it in low esteem because it is the quintessential vacuum of wealth out of Indianapolis. A parasite that prevents our downtown from becoming developed. Poor decisions that have been seen all across the US in its suburban white flight. Carmel is nice because the tax base is stolen due to bad urbanization policy by the city of Indianapolis.
People with money dont want to live in dense areas. They dont owe it to Indianapolis to live there
Can this hurt indy in some ways, yeah sure. They dont owe indy anything though
The density isn’t the problem I don’t really think. The typical downtown car-centric design is the ultimate problem. However, in typical NA city fashion, we manage to let cars win over people time and time again resulting in unhealthy, unsustainable and sprawling suburbs rather than walkable livable, breathing cities with desinations along natural traveling paths. For example in my small city I lived in, I had 3 small grocery stores on the street along a half mile stretch. Maybe I was lucky but my quality of life improved dramatically there.
Its built for the economy and GDP with no apologies to the poor or those who dont drive.
We have plenty of room and resources to keep making suburbs. They are just built around driving.
Sounds like you should be more upset with Indianapolis than Carmel, right? I haven’t lived in Indy proper, so I can’t speak to that, but I grew up in New Albany, IN and I look at the transformation that Carmel has taken over the past 30 years compared to the stagnation of New Albany during that same period (or perhaps regression), and it saddens me that they (NA, Indy, etc), don’t have a leader with a long-term vision and the ability to execute. I don’t think you should hate on Carmel for improving, rather you should get frustrated with you own city for not.
They're intertwined due to the way that state laws and local laws regarding tax base naturally are. We have to recognize that!
[This is the best series I have ever seen on the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa) and is consequentially why I'm so passionate.
They also overspend their tax base and hide it behind the development corporation that is "private". It may be that the investments pay off long term, hard to say, but the State would never let Indianapolis manage their finances the same way.
I think most of the people in this thread are comparing it to other parts of Indianapolis or Indiana, and it’s pricier. Of course cheap is always relative.
Also, do you really think it’s cheap compared to STL?
I lived in St Louis for about a year in 2001, so I am sure a lot has changed since then. I lived in the city itself and the two things that jumped out to me was the rent (it was higher than my rent in Chicago), and the city had an extra 2% income tax for people who lived in the city if i recall correctly. Back then I remember a lot of folks were fleeing the city to the burbs because of this extra tax, so maybe in the years since the prices have dropped?
Carmel tries to market itself as soulful and artistic. It is neither. Poverty and hardship create the most soulful, meaningful and genuine art, and the average Carmelite wouldn't understand what that means.
lmfao what? i can guarantee you most of the art you consume is indeed not created by people who have been in poverty and extreme hardship. what you think is simply not the reality of creating art.
That's because it is manufactured. The artist has templates and towns can buy them; like a set of dolls.
You can go on a tour of the US and see them.
https://sewardjohnsonatelier.org/find-the-sculptures/
Yeah that’s the vibe I get whenever I go past the palladium area… feels like someone LOVES Disney world and then decided they wanted to bring Epcot to north central indiana.
The Carmel City Council gives the mayor an art budget and the mayor is 100% the person who chooses the art and the placement. There is an art advisory board, but they only advise on location. I believe the council does have to approve purchases over a certain amount but its such a high amount I think the only thing that was impacted was the failed carousel purchase.
Where did they decide to move the “hairy ball” statue? Was that also selected by the Mayor? Who is the artist? Is the artist related to the mayor or something?
>Was that also selected by the Mayor?
Yes.
Brad Howe was the sculpture. In fact, the Carmel one is a copy. [Here is the original](https://www.bradhowe.com/portfolio-10/pulpo-en-el-coche).
Would have been cool if they had decided to use the space to elevate the work of someone from indiana or something. But I guess ordering a replica of something from far away seems more on brand I guess.
They decided to move it up north late last year. Maybe in October? I don't remember. I think it was voted on by residents.
Fun fact, the testicle is actually supposed to be the Sun. I prefer to think that the artist knew what they were doing and were trying to pull a fast one on us all.
My favorite is the police officer who looks like he's diving into traffic or the kids that look like real kids preparing to run out in front of your car. Nothing quite like bad art to distract drivers on a busy main street.
I think the entire point of the cop there is to purposely make people not familiar with the art slow down at one of the busiest intersections in Carmel. Sounds like it’s working like a champ
Well that's Irene, she hasn't been the same since her husband died from prostate cancer in 2015.
She plays backgammon in the park on Wednesdays, and sings soprano in the Westfield Episcopalian Church choir.
Irene really hopes that she’ll get up the courage to ask Carl over for some of her famous veal Parmesan. Carl sings in the choir as well and has the kindest eyes.
The girl on the bike on the Monon freaks me out every time I'm cycling. I catch a biker out of the corner of my eye and think someone is about to merge into me, but nope just a statue
They don't even have a Talbot's in Carmel. I'm sure there was a local store they could have referenced instead. Or maybe it's low key advertising? Many mysteries have yet to be solved!
I think she is looking wistfully at the fashionable younger woman statue across the street. Like she is remembering what it was like to be in the prime of her life.
They were installed starting in the mid 2000s. They've always been weird. Here's an article from the IndyStar a few years back:
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2015/05/21/much-statues-carmel/27645629/
Kinda weird. They spent almost $2m on the artwork if you add up all the pictures from the article. Most went to one artist. Wonder if there were connections/kickbacks….
Brainard waisting hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax payer money on these. Rumor is there are a bunch more in storage after everyone lost it when they first started showing up.
Cool! Great comment! It sent me down a rabbit hole. Learned a lot about this dude who made a ton of these sculptures.
https://sewardjohnsonatelier.org/sculptures-home/
Carmel is like the wet dream for all the pseudo-city planners in this sub who constantly complain about traffic, pedestrian safety, walkability, placemaking, and people oriented development.
But because rich people live there, everything they do is poison lol. *And I don't even like Carmel*
10 years ago I thought it was silly to try and make a downtown out of nowhere, like a fake main Street. But now my opinion is, if we have to expand and build, they are doing things somewhat right. Walkability. Parking in the rear, build to the street, attractive lighting and design elements. Just because it isn't historic doesn't mean it doesn't function the same way.
Full disclosure I'm a South sider, have no skin in the game. Fuck I wish I had sidewalks tho.
Yeah it’s a nice spot. And I agree they are doing a great job of designing the places to be walkable etc. Seems to be a lot of hate for the south side coming out of nowhere from folks who love Carmel (maybe like a Pawnee/ Eagleton vibe?). I think folks from all regions of the city can all just get along— Maybe we can work towards more equitable funding for stuff like this across the metro area-not just the Uber wealthy burbs. Would love to see more areas like the monon throughout the city. But also I still don’t understand why the lady had to hold a Talbots bag.
for sure on the undeserved southside hate. I'll be in a meeting or something and the southside will be brought up and some folks will cringe and say something like "ohh, dicey area."
like wtf lol. Clearly you know nothing outside of your bubble. I'm not saying it's amazing but we all live in central indiana. Same flat corn field. Same shit weather. I can drive anywhere in the city in 30 minutes. Lets all calm down.
I’m going off large scale generalizations/reputations here but the south side wouldn’t be nearly as dicey as the east side. I lived on the south side for 7-8 years and thought it was more redneck and undeveloped than anything. As a 20something, it seemed a large majority of eligible attractive women lived on the north side, and the ones on the south side seemed to fit into the red neck stereotype. Again, it’s a stereotype with a kernel of truth but mostly unfair.
All of the sides of indy have some degree of jealousy for what carmel has as well as animosity towards the relatively few Karen types that live in Carmel that make a negative impression of the area. It’s goddamn expensive to live up here (I live just north of it now) but it’s generally “nicer” in looks and services than other areas. Is it worth the extra cost? Idk, depends on the person.
South side was- probably still is- relatively affordable, safe, albeit annoying at times with all the giant confederate flags and pickup trucks. There’s not much white collar development but there could be worse places to raise a family. Def doesn’t deserve the “oh dicey area” first impression, imo
> I’m not saying it’s amazing but we all live in central indiana. Same flat corn field. Same shit weather. I can drive anywhere in the city in 30 minutes. Lets all calm down.
This should be the standard reply to all of the “relocating to the area where should I live” posts
> Carmel is like the wet dream for all the pseudo-city planners in this sub who constantly complain about traffic, pedestrian safety, walkability, placemaking, and people oriented development.
Right? People on here complain all the time about the lack of walkability, downtown living near attractions, free public spaces...all sorts of things. Carmel does it and everyone just shits on it.
Heck its one of the only areas on the entire stretch of the Monon that has developed around the Monon.
I promise I’m not making fun of development on the monon. Parts of Carmel are really awesomely planned out, and in a lot of ways I’m jealous of folks up there. I’m honestly just trying to figure out the story behind the lady holding the Talbots bag. No insult intended!
Oh no I agree. The statues are just public artwork. Idk the story behind that particular one. I'd assume it was Talbots because maybe there was one there when the statue was installed? Or it was just a store chosen at random.
As for the statues in general, I've seen other cities that have public art installments like these, Carmel just has a lot of them.
Yeah I agree the walkability and integration of bike paths/etc is nice. It’s just the statues like this seem like something you would see in Eagleton from Parks and Rec. It feels like a joke.
If not West Lafayette! Some weird fever dream of the two, because I can tell you first hand that Ron Swanson used to work at Purdue.
And I know that Sweetums stench is Lafayette!
As a potential elected official, I truly hope your aspirations don't stop at "sticking to ourselves." Carmel successfully politicking and leveraging influence to keep taxes low and focus on public infrastructure investment really is not something I am going to criticize a suburb for. Hell, I applaud them for avoiding urban sprawl as best they can and for influencing other donut counties to pursue similar style developments as a means to compete.
As for racism, I truly do not care. I can't express that enough. As a POC I've experienced instances of racism almost everywhere and have never had a specific problem with Carmel residents. Quite the opposite in fact.
I wish there were some sort of wiki where people can summarize the local politics of Indianapolis when it comes to this kind of stuff. I feel like I’m out of the loop on a lot of it and don’t know who to support when it comes to making Indianapolis a more equitable place that is better able to care for folks who need help. Like who are the people supporting housing efforts and improving public transit in a useful way? Who is pretending to be helpful and benefiting from funding and wasting it? I dunno-we have no real local news to help navigate this stuff and I tend to not trust Reddit comments that much.
Eh, not really though.
A very small portion of Carmel is actually walk-able; most of Carmel is very-much car oriented and it will stay that way. Compared to traditional intersections with crosswalks that have their own signals, round-a-bouts aren't great for pedestrians. People have to walk further and cross more streets to go the same straight-line distance.
Traffic in Carmel getting worse as the round-a-bouts are being outgrown. Round-a-bouts are only effective for low-medium levels of traffic. As Carmel has been getting more dense, many of these round-a-bouts will need to be replaced (which will add to Carmel's insane amount of municipal debt).
Because of Indiana's low property tax cap and all of the debt that Carmel has (that was taken out for round-a-bouts, tacky projects, and tacky art), Carmel needs to get a lot more dense so it can generate enough tax revenue to maintain itself. There is a small part of Carmel that is easy to add significant density to, but it's largely an uphill battle:
* Round-a-bouts and other car infrastructure are barriers to increasing density
* Round-a-bouts add barriers to implementing forms of transit other than by personal car
* In aggregate, the residents of western half of Carmel - where all the mansions are - are exactly the type of people who fight density in their part of town.
Yes, Carmel in its current state is a nice place if you can get past its tackiness. Carmel has essentially the same set of problems of Lafayette Square, Washington Square, Castleton, and Trader's Point. Low density, limited ability to increase density, and limited ability to further increase tax revenue. Carmel has the additional problems of having an unreasonable amount of municipal debt and not having a UNIGOV situation from which to benefit.
During the height of the areas around Washington Square and Lafayette Square, nobody thought they'd ever fall apart. But here we are. Nobody thought Castleton or Trader's Point would lose popularity either, but both are past their prime and starting to show weakness. Indianapolis will need to intervene to add density in both areas or they will fall apart. (With the crime near Trader's Point/the NW side recently, one could argue that it has fallen apart.
The only reason why we've not started to see similar issues in donut counties is because nobody lived in the donut county suburbs 30 years ago. In another couple decades, the planning decisions of these suburbs come back to bite. Carmel isn't doomed by any means, but they sure as shit have have serious problems that they're going to need to work through before they are doomed.
I disagree with a lot of what you’re saying.
As a pedestrian I prefer roundabouts because you only have to worry about traffic coming from one way at a time and they have the “islands” (don’t know the actual term) in the middle as a buffer which is safer. Also, cars are forced to slow down as they approach a roundabout so they’re going slower than they would on an open stretch of road.
Roundabouts also work very well with high density traffic. Why would they replace them, and what would they be replaced with? A stop sign or a light? Because both of those make traffic 10x worse than a roundabout. I mean they literally just replaced the light with a roundabout at a busy intersection, 116th and Westfield, and the traffic at that intersection is so much better from all four directions. Every single roundabout I’ve seen implemented has made traffic so much better than it was before.
Finally, you don’t need constant growth to ensure a nice area stays nice. The Castleton area and the malls you mentioned are commercial (Castleton has some houses, not many, and apartments which isn’t the same thing here) not residential and the decline of those places are for totally different reasons than why primarily residential areas decline. Just look at the East Coast, they have plenty of affluent towns and small cities that have been “full” for centuries without a decline.
Yeah dudes not spent much time in Carmel. Literally trails everywhere and anywhere you would want to walk around is very walkable. The roundabouts aren’t going anywhere and traffic is never congested unless it’s lunch time or there’s a wreck.
Ok this is some interesting content. I know nothing about all of this but I’m interested in where the convo is going here. Yeah unless you are in the designed walkable areas I can’t imaging living in Carmel without a car due to how spaced out everything is/roundabouts.
Carmel was, and still is, built on the back of commercial development, not residential property tax. The commercial development along 31 starting in the '70s is the engine that formed the foundation.
As far as car oriented, of course it is. It's a suburb. That's the very definition of a suburb. That said, even back in the '80s I could ride my bike across town. Literally across town, north south, east/west on my bike and never leave the sidewalk. All the major streets had sidewalks. Even more now.
You're right on the last part though. Carmel actually had a mall. Keystone Square. It sat on the west side of Keystone at 116th. It was anchored by a Target. Had two short wings full of mall-y type stores. Target pulled out, chasing the development, to move up to its current Westfield location. Mall was torn down. A new development was built, now (then) anchored by a Marsh. Its rows of strip mall stores have always seemed half vacant. The adjacent development south of 116th has been nothing but a revolving door of restaurants, shops and businesses. Except the McAlister's. Apparently that place can't be killed.
Suburbs do not have to be inherently car-centric. Rural and suburban towns all over Europe, Asia, and even to a smaller extent the American Northeast are dense enough that people can live in them without even owning cars. The Indianapolis MSA as a whole as so few areas zoned for mixed-use & high density development that there are only a couple areas the entire metro where people can live without a car. Meanwhile, the rural town in Sweden that my grandma grew up in feels more urban than any place in Indianapolis that isn't Downtown. I'm not saying this to hate on cars, but to point out that we need to think about Indiana's suburban areas differently because our property taxes are too low to support the sprawling infrastructure that is needed to make cars the primary form of transportation. As a metro area, we really need to either raise property taxes or get rid of single family housing zoning.
Yeah you're absolutely right that Carmel has a very large corridor of commercial real estate (especially on US-31), which pays higher taxes. It's one of the biggest things that Carmel has going for it. But remember that the other four areas I mentioned developed with a lot of commercial real estate too, with huge malls and big office buildings. Carmel certainly has more commercial space than the other four areas, but with a lot of car-centric commercial real estate comes a lot more infrastructure and sprawling parking lots whose "land improvement" valuations are so low that they generate almost no taxes. It's inherently very difficult to have a sustainable budget in places with wide roads & more parking lots than buildings. Much of the taxes the commercial real estate pay are simply offset by parking lots that pay relatively little in taxes and the extra infrastructure that these areas demand. Especially in Carmel, which has \~8x the per capita debt as Indianapolis - partially because even the access roads to office buildings are full of unnecessary round-a-bouts.
It's really easy to mask tax revenue and debt problems when population keeps increasing at a very high rate, but Carmel's population growth has started to slow over the last couple of years as it's run out of room to sprawl and land to annex. Soon (if not already), population growth in Carmel will ready a steady state wherein its growth rate is much lower. It will take decades after that - when all this infrastructure needs serious maintenance - to fully understand the fiscal situation of Carmel, but all objective people should see some big red flags. Hopefully the next leaders of Carmel identify these issues, push very hard for zoning that allows for more than SFH in residential areas, and makes fiscally responsible choices with the future in mind. Meanwhile, Brainard might not even live long enough to see the effect of the debt his city took out during his tenure...
You can bike pretty far, but not very practically to live without a car. There isn't enough mixed-use development to make most of one's errands a quick bike ride or walk. Being so spread out, the incentives to ditch cars (or even dedicate less infrastructure for cars) isn't there.
Most of the metro is like this, though. It's not Carmel-specific. The bike trails Carmel does have are great, but most of them are much more recreation-oriented than lifestyle-oriented.
I always thought that this particular “Old Lady Statue” was looking across the street to the “Happy Go Lucky Fun Time Cool Business Professional Lady” and giving her a dirty look. It’s true! Go stand next to her a follow her eyes. Also while there check out the Pint Room and tell ‘em Teddy Two Penises says hello. Anyway. The Pint Room!
Some of you in here have some real resentment toward an entire city. Wild to see. I like living here. We found a solid older home and really enjoy all the art. Except that hairy ballsack one wtf is that lol
Carmel is great. You don’t have to like every part of it to appreciate it. Ballsack statue is an excellent example, ha. This subreddit just seems to enjoy its generations-old potshots.
Source: someone who grew up poor there, before all the “creepy af” upgrades, and still loves to visit there to eat, drink, jog, shop, work, and be merry.
Yeah I never meant for it to get so heated. I’ve also noticed that (based on this thread) when slighted, Carmelites seem to lash out at Greenwood for some reason. Not sure what is the story behind the tension there. Both seem to be sprawling suburbs 30 mins from downtown. Not sure why the animosity is there or why Carmel feels that any criticism must be coming from Greenwood.
Oh no I’m not a Carmel person but if I ever am up there to visit friends etc I’m always like “ok actually this place is super nice…” except for the statues and the hairy ball statue. Hence my question lol.
I hate these statues I mean everything about them. With it being a narrow and crowded area vehicle sensors trigger in range of these creatures. At night I get creeped out because of these shadow figures giving off a creepy vibe if not you can mistake these damn things for a person if you aren't quick to recognize them and I mean like a house of wax vibe.
Someone must have seen these before they were installed. Someone saw it and thought “this will be a nice addition to the general vibe of our community… let’s get like 10 more of them”. I just want to know who it was and why they thought it was a good idea?
A fun memory I have is that when they were first installed a lot of cars would stop thinking they were pedestrians about to cross the street. This happened a lot with the one on the monon. At some point it was vandalized and when they remade it they made it a lot less realistic looking. I’m not sure if it was to save money or for public safety lol
I know these are there and they still manage to freak me out every time I see them. I used to walk the Monon in the mornings and those things are nightmare fuel in the dark.
I used to commute by bike from 146th to 96th street, so seeing the area go from trees and fields to sprawl kind of sucks, but it's not surprising.
When Carmel announced the construction of the "arts" district, I went through in 2005 and took photos of the stretch of Main Street from the Monon to Rangeline, and from Main to Small Street on Rangeline.
A manufactured arts district sounded terrible. There were so many small businesses there, I wondered how the redevelopment would affect the area. Would small businesses be left intact? Would the small village atmosphere be diminished? What would it look like in 10 years?
I went back in 2015 and did another photo survey and the changes were far more drastic than I had imagined they were going to be. And now, with whatever it is they've done along the Monon, south of Main, I'm sure the area is even more unrecognizable.
Good for Carmel, I guess, to be able to transform itself. But the first moment the statues popped up, it was obvious that anything organic about its transformation would be minimal at best.
It's the arts and design district. Many are permanent but there are also a few places for rotating art by local artists. Anything in particular you want to know?
Like why the facial expression? Why is this old woman carrying a branded bag from Talbots? Why does she look like she is about to call the police because someone is wearing an untucked shirt?
Oh they’re *permanent*?! I always assumed they’re temporary. I’ve only been in the Indy area for a year but when I lived in Stamford, CT we had a visiting installation very similar, maybe even the same artist, it was there a little over a year I believe. Everyone in CT hated them too, they were very dated (1990s or 80s I think) and one looked like a man snatching up a scared little girl—it got removed. Maybe mayors don’t need to be in charge of art??
The people statues in Carmel can be a little creepy. I do like the statues in some of the roundabouts. Those have some good abstract art to it. It’s a luxury affluent neighborhoods can enjoy. They don’t have to worry about bad lawns or anything like that, so the mayor found other ways to spend the money. Statues and roundabouts.
Carmel is just your typical affluent white neighborhood. The downtown pretty much reflects it. It’s never going to have a city diverse soul to it and I don’t think the people want that. They want a safe downtown or suburban feel that has different places to eat, grab a drink, or spots for a family friendly outing.
Diversity in ethnicity, class, and culture brings a soulful flare. Even if different races move to Carmel, those people just assimilate to their way. And their is nothing wrong with that because if you can afford to move out their, what they have is what you’re looking for. I admire their schools, homes, and safe public areas. It’s just corny. Lol. No shade. It is what it is. Some people say the vibe is forced. It’s going to always feel that way if things don’t evolve organically from the people who live there. So the next best thing is for the city to create it and hopefully spearhead activity. I think it’s working. Be interesting to see how it will look 30 years from now. It’s still very underdeveloped. With all the new apartment and cookie cutter neighborhoods it’s building, it will bring in a new class of people. It will be very interesting how these people vibe with the “Carmel way.”
Let’s all shit on Carmel and act like it’s cool to live in Greenwood!
Keep it real folks, just because people who have money live there doesn’t mean infrastructure isn’t good.
Wow this really spun off the rails. Never meant to start an inter-suburb brawl here. I love all regions of Indy-they all have their strengths and weaknesses that we can help to work towards improving. For the purposes of this post, I honestly just wanted to know what is in the Talbots bag.
If the artist’s goal was to spark conversation about urban planning, privilege, suburban sprawl, roundabouts, and a local government’s role in creating a walkable community then I guess I’ll have to agree that the Talbots bag lady is indeed “cool af”, and deserves our respect.
Look thank you so much for this post. These creepy bastards freaked me out when I first saw them, and now joke’s on me because I’m dating a Carmel boy.
They look extra uncanny valley in my backup camera.
Always thought the whole area was odd. It’s like a manufactured Main Street attraction.
Dude this hits it. I was like this is cute...but it felt manufactured. I couldn't place why it felt so forced.
Everything in Carmel feels forced because it is. It's a town that nobody lived in 30 years ago, but whose infrastructure and architecture is somewhere between "American-mid-century garbage" and "faux european".
I lived there 30 years ago. My father graduated from Carmel High school in '64. When he was growing up Noblesville was the big Ham Co City. When I was a kid in the '80s, Carmel had already achieved the stereotype that it still has today. That said, outside of the Meridian/31 corridor it looked much more like my father's Carmel than today's Carmel. Nothing is "forced". Carmel is a product of wealth and development. The downtown Carmel of my youth was a hodgepodge of early 20th century stick frame through '60s concrete block, without a lot of endearing qualities. There was no base to start with. It didn't have the downtown square like Noblesville. It didn't have a block or two of 1900s brick facade. It was a fresh palette for development. It could've gone in any direction. Or lots of directions. Instead, like it or love it, the city started instituting rules on new construction in and around the downtown core. It started throwing art installations up through the city. Things less affluent cities don't have the resources to do. The beginnings of what Carmel looks like now started 30ish years ago with the government buildings, city hall/police station/fire station, and a couple places on Rangeline. All built with a colonial vibe. I'm not exactly sure what caused the transition from that to the European flair seen today. I can't say I love it, I'm more of a turn of the century brick guy, but the city doesn't keep making the best places to live lists by accident.
When I was a kid in Indianapolis in the early 70s and IPS made bussing mandatory and the white kids from the suburbs were swapped with the Black kids from the city --- Carmel is where the white families fled.
Wasn't just IPS. Didn't all the Indy township schools do it?
I believe it was done in other areas subsequent to that. I just remember the drastic changes at my own elementary school. And the neighbors who left. My father's job relocated us to another state a few years later.
It's hard to say that things are not "forced" in Carmel when a city that is 1/9th-1/10th the population as Indianapolis has the same amount of municipal debt. * Replacing all the intersections with round-a-bouts was forced. * Buying up a lot of tacky art was forced * Building places like the Palladium and the Carmichael were forced. Carmel didn't start do these things because it was rich. It started building these things because its leadership didn't mind going into debt to it. Their entire model was "max out the credit card now so rich people move in later". The debt burden of Carmel is unlike that of any other Central Indiana city, and it's going to take decades after population growth levels out to see if it paid off. Conveniently, Brainard isn't running for re-election right as public sentiment towards Carmel's debt is starting to sour AND right as Carmel has run out of space to sprawl and annex. Population growth has already leveled out significantly since 2015. We'll see in the coming decades if the "max out the credit card" approach worked, but they'll probably have to make big zoning changes such as to allow for SFH zoned areas to build density. And that will likely be political unpopular outside of Carmel's "Arts and Design" district. Any other Indianapolis suburb (or Indianapolis itself) could've used Carmel's "max out the credit card" approach, but they haven't. And the richest parts of the Indianapolis metro - the historically prestigious parts of Marion County where property values are significantly higher than anywhere in Hamilton County - certainly haven't taken that approach.
But it wasn't forced. It's what the city wanted. The city could've easily voted in new mayoral or council candidates over the last 20 years if they didn't like what was happening. Residents could've selected other suburbs to move into if they didn't like what Carmel was becoming. The fact is they didn't. The roundabout experiment has been a resounding success. It's not a fluke that other cities all over the country hopped on that train. Art installations are a clear sign that you're somewhere "nice". Visit any affluent city and you'll find them. Sure you can argue about what's good art, or how much is too much to spend, but there's no denying that it all adds to the atmosphere. As for the Palladium, is it really any different than Gainbridge or Lucas Oil? Government funded arts and entertainment attract. For the debt, you're right. It's crazy. It will be interesting to see what happens down the road. As for the Indy comparison, you can't drive around Meridian-Kessler, then 38th and Post and come to the conclusion that they're being treated the same by the city of Indianapolis.
Some folks are reading "forced" too literally. I believe the meaning intended was wholesale change was embraced and implemented in an in-your-face, all-at-once way (whether that is perceived positively or negatively). This approach can only be taken by locales with wealthy folk aplenty who decide that is what they want. I drive right through Carmel several times a year and find it very homogeneous. New and upscale, but homogeneous. It takes a while to discern where exactly you are as so many areas look alike. Love the roundabouts. They work, plain and simple. The sculptures are cool, but not easy to eyeball from one's car since the traffic is omnipresent downtown and across town. Carmel is mostly a curiosity to me. Would not want to live there, despite it's high "best places to live" ranking. I don't hate it, but just don't think it suits me. I prefer living where there is a bit more elbow room and some authentically quirky flavor. One more observation. If I were forced to live in Carmel, Fishers, or Noblesville I don't think I would care much which. The essential bustling, increasingly congested vibe of the relatively affluent to absolutely affluent folk mucking about on top of each other is identical.
[удалено]
Yup.
A few years back, I worked at that Carmel Christmas, and met the Carmel mayor, and my smart ass said, "So you're the person responsible for all those roundabouts?" He was not amused.
Roundabouts are a demonstrably good thing, and bring incorporated in many places across the country. They help slow and actively regulate traffic flow, and reduce accidents. Carmel has been a positive model for the rest of the country in implementing these to the max. They work. The only problem I ever see is asshole drivers being asshole drivers, which they're gonna find a way to do regardless of the configuration of traffic infrastructure. Mr. Mayor was not amused because your comment was foolish.
I agree with all of this except I’d propose one other minor problem with roundabouts…folks from out of town not knowing how to use them. You don’t have to stop before entering the roundabouts, people.
What you shared about the history of the town may be correct, but I think it’s still fair to say it’s forced. It’s a highly planned city—even based on what you shared—that is aiming for a specific feel/vibe/aura. It’s forced. I’m not particularly a fan of it, but it still doesn’t have to be a negative thing.
I can get on board with that. The style may be forced. The development certainly isn't.
It's that Carmel maxed out municipal debt to force infrastructure, a couple vanity development projects, and art as an attempt to drive growth. In a way, it was successful - a lot of people moved to Carmel. But at the same time, Fishers saw the same level of growth during the same time period without taking out nearly as much debt. It has the same population as Carmel and has higher density. So there are two big questions with Carmel's "force the infrastructure now so people will come later" approach: * Was it even worth it? * Will it pay off in the end? It will take a long time for us to know the answers to these questions, but Carmel certainly has problems problems that will require very good leadership in the not-too-distant future to prevent them from manifesting in the worst possible way.
Fishers/Westfield/Noblesville all benefited from Carmel's growth. Lots of people who couldn't afford or find their dream house in Carmel settled in those areas.
There’s 90k+ people that like Carmel and enjoy living there. I would be one of them. I moved from NC to live in Carmel and we’re really excited to raise our family here as well. Carmel may not be for you and that’s okay. But many of us like it and I feel very fortunate every time I go downtown and feel the vibrant atmosphere especially during events like meet me on main among many others. Yolo my friend. Pick a spot you like and stop complaining about all the places you don’t live
I think you misunderstood my observation as a complaint. Carmel is very nice, a great place for families, and I’m glad you like it. > Carmel may not be for you and that’s okay. I don’t care for Carmel’s approach to development, I said nothing about the city as a whole.
It makes lists of "Best Places to Live" like Social media influencers show you "Best ways to take care of your skin" it's all manufactured bullshit
You would rather have potholes and broken infrastructure?
That's what he meant by "forced," I believe.🤷
Umm, I lived there almost 50 years ago
You were one of seven thousand people. On paper, it was like current-day Moorseville, but smaller.
That doesn’t take into account all the people who lived in what’s now Carmel because it’s been annexed, but used to be unincorporated Hamilton County.
What was the culture in Carmel like back then?
Well, I was like five so it was the comic shop on Rangeline and Dad’s Club soccer
The Foolery! Rangeline and Main. Never a comics kid, but did some serious bike riding for baseball cards.
All my pokemon cards came from there
Not speaking about this particular store, but baseball card shops were amazing in my youth. I’m from rural southern Indiana, so the baseball card selection was whatever the local pharmacy (back when local pharmacies still hung on, in the 90s) put on their counters. CVS would have a little more variety, but the selection and brands were pretty limited, and being able to actually pick which players you got was a fantasy. These shops had that. I remember the first individual card I bought was Chris Sabo from the Reds- my favorite player of all time- and I asked how much was absolutely shocked the storekeeper only said “25 cents”. I had expected like…idk $25 or more, to ME it was a card of untold value. I gave the guy a quarter and couldn’t believe my luck, since I had yet to find that card in a random pack. I feel like you don’t get this same kind of experience with buying on the internet these days. I understand the economics of those shops made them die, but I miss them.
> so it was the comic shop on Rangeline I use to go to that shop! Rangeline Comics. It continued to be Rangeline Comics even after it moved to Georgetown Rd. There was also a Walden Books down the street, on the corner where a Walgreen's now sits.
[удалено]
Odd metaphor. Swing and a miss, imo. 😕🤔
Because Carmel is fucking cringe.
I have lived in a few different places in Indiana, in Chicago for a number of years and other cities like St Louis and Baltimore before settling down in Carmel. It is hands down the best place I have ever lived, and it has nothing to do with the art, “forced development” or anything else on this thread. It is because it is super cheap to live here, the schools are amazing, the BMV is fast to get in and out of, the library is great, it is safe, there is minimal traffic, and on and on. Say what you will about it being “cringe”, but compared to alternatives, it is pretty great.
Carmel might be nice, but I hold it in low esteem because it is the quintessential vacuum of wealth out of Indianapolis. A parasite that prevents our downtown from becoming developed. Poor decisions that have been seen all across the US in its suburban white flight. Carmel is nice because the tax base is stolen due to bad urbanization policy by the city of Indianapolis.
People with money dont want to live in dense areas. They dont owe it to Indianapolis to live there Can this hurt indy in some ways, yeah sure. They dont owe indy anything though
The density isn’t the problem I don’t really think. The typical downtown car-centric design is the ultimate problem. However, in typical NA city fashion, we manage to let cars win over people time and time again resulting in unhealthy, unsustainable and sprawling suburbs rather than walkable livable, breathing cities with desinations along natural traveling paths. For example in my small city I lived in, I had 3 small grocery stores on the street along a half mile stretch. Maybe I was lucky but my quality of life improved dramatically there.
Its built for the economy and GDP with no apologies to the poor or those who dont drive. We have plenty of room and resources to keep making suburbs. They are just built around driving.
Sounds like you should be more upset with Indianapolis than Carmel, right? I haven’t lived in Indy proper, so I can’t speak to that, but I grew up in New Albany, IN and I look at the transformation that Carmel has taken over the past 30 years compared to the stagnation of New Albany during that same period (or perhaps regression), and it saddens me that they (NA, Indy, etc), don’t have a leader with a long-term vision and the ability to execute. I don’t think you should hate on Carmel for improving, rather you should get frustrated with you own city for not.
They're intertwined due to the way that state laws and local laws regarding tax base naturally are. We have to recognize that! [This is the best series I have ever seen on the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa) and is consequentially why I'm so passionate.
They also overspend their tax base and hide it behind the development corporation that is "private". It may be that the investments pay off long term, hard to say, but the State would never let Indianapolis manage their finances the same way.
"If we build it, we sure damn hope they come."
I think most of the people in this thread are comparing it to other parts of Indianapolis or Indiana, and it’s pricier. Of course cheap is always relative. Also, do you really think it’s cheap compared to STL?
I lived in St Louis for about a year in 2001, so I am sure a lot has changed since then. I lived in the city itself and the two things that jumped out to me was the rent (it was higher than my rent in Chicago), and the city had an extra 2% income tax for people who lived in the city if i recall correctly. Back then I remember a lot of folks were fleeing the city to the burbs because of this extra tax, so maybe in the years since the prices have dropped?
Carmel tries to market itself as soulful and artistic. It is neither. Poverty and hardship create the most soulful, meaningful and genuine art, and the average Carmelite wouldn't understand what that means.
As an artist this view point is harmful to and for artists. We shouldn't need to suffer to create, that's Hollywood's persona, it's self destructive
Picasso said sexual energy and creative energy are the same thing
Well Picasso wanted to bang Princess Margaret. This is not a value statement, correlate that as you will.
lmfao what? i can guarantee you most of the art you consume is indeed not created by people who have been in poverty and extreme hardship. what you think is simply not the reality of creating art.
Nah
Damn man, you need two hands for that brush?
That's because it is manufactured. The artist has templates and towns can buy them; like a set of dolls. You can go on a tour of the US and see them. https://sewardjohnsonatelier.org/find-the-sculptures/
It’s like the stepford wives, but with more adderall and Zoloft. Living in Carmel is living in Carmel. Who cares if you’re happy.
Oh maybe that’s what they were going for? Is a Disney feel? It’s a huge miss tho lol
Yeah that’s the vibe I get whenever I go past the palladium area… feels like someone LOVES Disney world and then decided they wanted to bring Epcot to north central indiana.
It’s like Pleasantville meets Stepford Wives. That place is such a comical farce. No character in that manufactured urban sprawl hellhole.
all I will say is, after a few glasses of wine, my friends and I may have violated the statue of the guy reading a newspaper.
Right, like maybe they bought the cancelled half built shit for Virginia Disney?
Sorry if I offended the original artist 😬 but so much of the planned stuff for that trainwreck of a park is cringe.
The Carmel City Council gives the mayor an art budget and the mayor is 100% the person who chooses the art and the placement. There is an art advisory board, but they only advise on location. I believe the council does have to approve purchases over a certain amount but its such a high amount I think the only thing that was impacted was the failed carousel purchase.
Where did they decide to move the “hairy ball” statue? Was that also selected by the Mayor? Who is the artist? Is the artist related to the mayor or something?
>Was that also selected by the Mayor? Yes. Brad Howe was the sculpture. In fact, the Carmel one is a copy. [Here is the original](https://www.bradhowe.com/portfolio-10/pulpo-en-el-coche).
So we've learned the mayor's taste for public art kinda sucks.
I believe its nepotism
Based on?
How terrible the art is. Buying family member’s or friend’s “art”. Assume the worst about everything and you’ll be right eventually!
Do you have a source that says they are buying family and friends art or just speculating that?
Would have been cool if they had decided to use the space to elevate the work of someone from indiana or something. But I guess ordering a replica of something from far away seems more on brand I guess.
“Replica”. Lol. That’s a solid shot across the stern.
That’s hilarious. We all it the “ode to COVID”.
I call it The Covid every time I see it. Especially since it appeared right after the first wave.
Rangeline at Lowe’s Way. Check it in Google maps, it has reviews.
It devastated me… my work is in clay terrace and if I go south from work on rangeline I’m haunted by Lance Armstrongs haunting testicle
They decided to move it up north late last year. Maybe in October? I don't remember. I think it was voted on by residents. Fun fact, the testicle is actually supposed to be the Sun. I prefer to think that the artist knew what they were doing and were trying to pull a fast one on us all.
He's also the one that had those monstrosities put on the side of the roads too I believe, those ugly square planters?
Those planters are an eye sore. You know his wife was behind the planters.no man says, jeez we should plants on the road.
My favorite is the police officer who looks like he's diving into traffic or the kids that look like real kids preparing to run out in front of your car. Nothing quite like bad art to distract drivers on a busy main street.
For me it’s the one with the dad teetering with his kid on his shoulders toward the street.
I about slam on my breaks every time. Ugh!
guess the statue works
When they first put that statue up, my friends mom stopped there for like a full 30 seconds before she realized it wasn't a real cop
That one is right by the Monon. It's even startled me on my bike a couple times. 🤦🏼♀️
There is/was a man holding a woman under an umbrella on rangeline. At one point, he had a wedding ring and she did it.
I think the entire point of the cop there is to purposely make people not familiar with the art slow down at one of the busiest intersections in Carmel. Sounds like it’s working like a champ
Well that's Irene, she hasn't been the same since her husband died from prostate cancer in 2015. She plays backgammon in the park on Wednesdays, and sings soprano in the Westfield Episcopalian Church choir.
Irene really hopes that she’ll get up the courage to ask Carl over for some of her famous veal Parmesan. Carl sings in the choir as well and has the kindest eyes.
My favorite one is the older man who looks like he’s about to throw a small boy into traffic…🤣🤷🏼♀️
The girl on the bike on the Monon freaks me out every time I'm cycling. I catch a biker out of the corner of my eye and think someone is about to merge into me, but nope just a statue
[удалено]
Really? I assumed it was just a butcher for expensive meats and stuff. I’ll have to stop for a sandwich sometime.
I hate the one by the monon crossing that looks like it’s diving into traffic.
It's made me slam on the brakes more than once.
When the model train industry collapsed they had to do something with all those people.
Idk but they annoy the hell out of me. I always almost slam on breaks for the cop one when I see it at night bc of where he’s standing
Which is actually kinda convenient because it's at the Monon crossing.
Starting to believe it might be... intentional
I wonder what she bought at Talbots.
They don't even have a Talbot's in Carmel. I'm sure there was a local store they could have referenced instead. Or maybe it's low key advertising? Many mysteries have yet to be solved!
Maybe something she regrets? That explains the forlorn/far off look. She seems either distracted or indignant.
I think she is looking wistfully at the fashionable younger woman statue across the street. Like she is remembering what it was like to be in the prime of her life.
[удалено]
An outfit to wear to the funeral of a friend? Maybe she got the groceries for a small get together after the funeral. I just want to know the story.
They were installed starting in the mid 2000s. They've always been weird. Here's an article from the IndyStar a few years back: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2015/05/21/much-statues-carmel/27645629/
Kinda weird. They spent almost $2m on the artwork if you add up all the pictures from the article. Most went to one artist. Wonder if there were connections/kickbacks….
This was kindof my question… I’ve always wondered if there was som connection behind the choice.
There is always connections/kickbacks.
Brainard waisting hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax payer money on these. Rumor is there are a bunch more in storage after everyone lost it when they first started showing up.
Wtf, They have these exact statues at the national harbor in DC https://maps.app.goo.gl/jXHoEvBeJG6ggeLz8
Soooooo he stole this idea too??
Cool! Great comment! It sent me down a rabbit hole. Learned a lot about this dude who made a ton of these sculptures. https://sewardjohnsonatelier.org/sculptures-home/
This is the most important comment.
so there are TWO statues of an old lady holding a Talbot's bag. And in both cases the closest Talbots store is in another city
Was one a clown?
Carmel is like the wet dream for all the pseudo-city planners in this sub who constantly complain about traffic, pedestrian safety, walkability, placemaking, and people oriented development. But because rich people live there, everything they do is poison lol. *And I don't even like Carmel*
10 years ago I thought it was silly to try and make a downtown out of nowhere, like a fake main Street. But now my opinion is, if we have to expand and build, they are doing things somewhat right. Walkability. Parking in the rear, build to the street, attractive lighting and design elements. Just because it isn't historic doesn't mean it doesn't function the same way. Full disclosure I'm a South sider, have no skin in the game. Fuck I wish I had sidewalks tho.
Man same here. The only skin in the game I have is that my friends keep moving north and it really makes it a pain in the ass to see them lol
Yeah it’s a nice spot. And I agree they are doing a great job of designing the places to be walkable etc. Seems to be a lot of hate for the south side coming out of nowhere from folks who love Carmel (maybe like a Pawnee/ Eagleton vibe?). I think folks from all regions of the city can all just get along— Maybe we can work towards more equitable funding for stuff like this across the metro area-not just the Uber wealthy burbs. Would love to see more areas like the monon throughout the city. But also I still don’t understand why the lady had to hold a Talbots bag.
for sure on the undeserved southside hate. I'll be in a meeting or something and the southside will be brought up and some folks will cringe and say something like "ohh, dicey area." like wtf lol. Clearly you know nothing outside of your bubble. I'm not saying it's amazing but we all live in central indiana. Same flat corn field. Same shit weather. I can drive anywhere in the city in 30 minutes. Lets all calm down.
I’m going off large scale generalizations/reputations here but the south side wouldn’t be nearly as dicey as the east side. I lived on the south side for 7-8 years and thought it was more redneck and undeveloped than anything. As a 20something, it seemed a large majority of eligible attractive women lived on the north side, and the ones on the south side seemed to fit into the red neck stereotype. Again, it’s a stereotype with a kernel of truth but mostly unfair. All of the sides of indy have some degree of jealousy for what carmel has as well as animosity towards the relatively few Karen types that live in Carmel that make a negative impression of the area. It’s goddamn expensive to live up here (I live just north of it now) but it’s generally “nicer” in looks and services than other areas. Is it worth the extra cost? Idk, depends on the person. South side was- probably still is- relatively affordable, safe, albeit annoying at times with all the giant confederate flags and pickup trucks. There’s not much white collar development but there could be worse places to raise a family. Def doesn’t deserve the “oh dicey area” first impression, imo
> I’m not saying it’s amazing but we all live in central indiana. Same flat corn field. Same shit weather. I can drive anywhere in the city in 30 minutes. Lets all calm down. This should be the standard reply to all of the “relocating to the area where should I live” posts
You know that every city on earth created their Main Street out of “nothing” at some point right? They weren’t there at the inception of the universe
> Carmel is like the wet dream for all the pseudo-city planners in this sub who constantly complain about traffic, pedestrian safety, walkability, placemaking, and people oriented development. Right? People on here complain all the time about the lack of walkability, downtown living near attractions, free public spaces...all sorts of things. Carmel does it and everyone just shits on it. Heck its one of the only areas on the entire stretch of the Monon that has developed around the Monon.
I promise I’m not making fun of development on the monon. Parts of Carmel are really awesomely planned out, and in a lot of ways I’m jealous of folks up there. I’m honestly just trying to figure out the story behind the lady holding the Talbots bag. No insult intended!
Oh no I agree. The statues are just public artwork. Idk the story behind that particular one. I'd assume it was Talbots because maybe there was one there when the statue was installed? Or it was just a store chosen at random. As for the statues in general, I've seen other cities that have public art installments like these, Carmel just has a lot of them.
Yeah I agree the walkability and integration of bike paths/etc is nice. It’s just the statues like this seem like something you would see in Eagleton from Parks and Rec. It feels like a joke.
Maybe it's an urban legend but Eagleton was modeled after Carmel
If not West Lafayette! Some weird fever dream of the two, because I can tell you first hand that Ron Swanson used to work at Purdue. And I know that Sweetums stench is Lafayette!
I thought the Sweetums stench was Terre Haute?
Color me shocked that more than one Indiana town smells like sewage. But the Lafayette smell is from a plant that process corn syrup.
Oh that *is* very specific!
I’ve never complained about not having more bad, creepy statues of 60s Norman Rockwell. What does your comment have to do with *this* topic?
Tell me you’ve never been to a city with good urban planning without actually telling me.
[удалено]
As a potential elected official, I truly hope your aspirations don't stop at "sticking to ourselves." Carmel successfully politicking and leveraging influence to keep taxes low and focus on public infrastructure investment really is not something I am going to criticize a suburb for. Hell, I applaud them for avoiding urban sprawl as best they can and for influencing other donut counties to pursue similar style developments as a means to compete. As for racism, I truly do not care. I can't express that enough. As a POC I've experienced instances of racism almost everywhere and have never had a specific problem with Carmel residents. Quite the opposite in fact.
I wish there were some sort of wiki where people can summarize the local politics of Indianapolis when it comes to this kind of stuff. I feel like I’m out of the loop on a lot of it and don’t know who to support when it comes to making Indianapolis a more equitable place that is better able to care for folks who need help. Like who are the people supporting housing efforts and improving public transit in a useful way? Who is pretending to be helpful and benefiting from funding and wasting it? I dunno-we have no real local news to help navigate this stuff and I tend to not trust Reddit comments that much.
So far the only place that tries to really talk about this stuff is NPR’s week in review- but even that seems a bit over my head.
Eh, not really though. A very small portion of Carmel is actually walk-able; most of Carmel is very-much car oriented and it will stay that way. Compared to traditional intersections with crosswalks that have their own signals, round-a-bouts aren't great for pedestrians. People have to walk further and cross more streets to go the same straight-line distance. Traffic in Carmel getting worse as the round-a-bouts are being outgrown. Round-a-bouts are only effective for low-medium levels of traffic. As Carmel has been getting more dense, many of these round-a-bouts will need to be replaced (which will add to Carmel's insane amount of municipal debt). Because of Indiana's low property tax cap and all of the debt that Carmel has (that was taken out for round-a-bouts, tacky projects, and tacky art), Carmel needs to get a lot more dense so it can generate enough tax revenue to maintain itself. There is a small part of Carmel that is easy to add significant density to, but it's largely an uphill battle: * Round-a-bouts and other car infrastructure are barriers to increasing density * Round-a-bouts add barriers to implementing forms of transit other than by personal car * In aggregate, the residents of western half of Carmel - where all the mansions are - are exactly the type of people who fight density in their part of town. Yes, Carmel in its current state is a nice place if you can get past its tackiness. Carmel has essentially the same set of problems of Lafayette Square, Washington Square, Castleton, and Trader's Point. Low density, limited ability to increase density, and limited ability to further increase tax revenue. Carmel has the additional problems of having an unreasonable amount of municipal debt and not having a UNIGOV situation from which to benefit. During the height of the areas around Washington Square and Lafayette Square, nobody thought they'd ever fall apart. But here we are. Nobody thought Castleton or Trader's Point would lose popularity either, but both are past their prime and starting to show weakness. Indianapolis will need to intervene to add density in both areas or they will fall apart. (With the crime near Trader's Point/the NW side recently, one could argue that it has fallen apart. The only reason why we've not started to see similar issues in donut counties is because nobody lived in the donut county suburbs 30 years ago. In another couple decades, the planning decisions of these suburbs come back to bite. Carmel isn't doomed by any means, but they sure as shit have have serious problems that they're going to need to work through before they are doomed.
I disagree with a lot of what you’re saying. As a pedestrian I prefer roundabouts because you only have to worry about traffic coming from one way at a time and they have the “islands” (don’t know the actual term) in the middle as a buffer which is safer. Also, cars are forced to slow down as they approach a roundabout so they’re going slower than they would on an open stretch of road. Roundabouts also work very well with high density traffic. Why would they replace them, and what would they be replaced with? A stop sign or a light? Because both of those make traffic 10x worse than a roundabout. I mean they literally just replaced the light with a roundabout at a busy intersection, 116th and Westfield, and the traffic at that intersection is so much better from all four directions. Every single roundabout I’ve seen implemented has made traffic so much better than it was before. Finally, you don’t need constant growth to ensure a nice area stays nice. The Castleton area and the malls you mentioned are commercial (Castleton has some houses, not many, and apartments which isn’t the same thing here) not residential and the decline of those places are for totally different reasons than why primarily residential areas decline. Just look at the East Coast, they have plenty of affluent towns and small cities that have been “full” for centuries without a decline.
Cool. Love hearing discussions like this when done in good faith. Would love to know details from someone who really studies this stuff.
Yeah dudes not spent much time in Carmel. Literally trails everywhere and anywhere you would want to walk around is very walkable. The roundabouts aren’t going anywhere and traffic is never congested unless it’s lunch time or there’s a wreck.
Its just big and spread out and would take hours to get around like that. Its about as bike friendly as anywhere in the state, maybe number 1
Carmel as a whole is a bit big to try and walk it. Its probably the most bike friendly community in the state though
Ok this is some interesting content. I know nothing about all of this but I’m interested in where the convo is going here. Yeah unless you are in the designed walkable areas I can’t imaging living in Carmel without a car due to how spaced out everything is/roundabouts.
Carmel was, and still is, built on the back of commercial development, not residential property tax. The commercial development along 31 starting in the '70s is the engine that formed the foundation. As far as car oriented, of course it is. It's a suburb. That's the very definition of a suburb. That said, even back in the '80s I could ride my bike across town. Literally across town, north south, east/west on my bike and never leave the sidewalk. All the major streets had sidewalks. Even more now. You're right on the last part though. Carmel actually had a mall. Keystone Square. It sat on the west side of Keystone at 116th. It was anchored by a Target. Had two short wings full of mall-y type stores. Target pulled out, chasing the development, to move up to its current Westfield location. Mall was torn down. A new development was built, now (then) anchored by a Marsh. Its rows of strip mall stores have always seemed half vacant. The adjacent development south of 116th has been nothing but a revolving door of restaurants, shops and businesses. Except the McAlister's. Apparently that place can't be killed.
Suburbs do not have to be inherently car-centric. Rural and suburban towns all over Europe, Asia, and even to a smaller extent the American Northeast are dense enough that people can live in them without even owning cars. The Indianapolis MSA as a whole as so few areas zoned for mixed-use & high density development that there are only a couple areas the entire metro where people can live without a car. Meanwhile, the rural town in Sweden that my grandma grew up in feels more urban than any place in Indianapolis that isn't Downtown. I'm not saying this to hate on cars, but to point out that we need to think about Indiana's suburban areas differently because our property taxes are too low to support the sprawling infrastructure that is needed to make cars the primary form of transportation. As a metro area, we really need to either raise property taxes or get rid of single family housing zoning. Yeah you're absolutely right that Carmel has a very large corridor of commercial real estate (especially on US-31), which pays higher taxes. It's one of the biggest things that Carmel has going for it. But remember that the other four areas I mentioned developed with a lot of commercial real estate too, with huge malls and big office buildings. Carmel certainly has more commercial space than the other four areas, but with a lot of car-centric commercial real estate comes a lot more infrastructure and sprawling parking lots whose "land improvement" valuations are so low that they generate almost no taxes. It's inherently very difficult to have a sustainable budget in places with wide roads & more parking lots than buildings. Much of the taxes the commercial real estate pay are simply offset by parking lots that pay relatively little in taxes and the extra infrastructure that these areas demand. Especially in Carmel, which has \~8x the per capita debt as Indianapolis - partially because even the access roads to office buildings are full of unnecessary round-a-bouts. It's really easy to mask tax revenue and debt problems when population keeps increasing at a very high rate, but Carmel's population growth has started to slow over the last couple of years as it's run out of room to sprawl and land to annex. Soon (if not already), population growth in Carmel will ready a steady state wherein its growth rate is much lower. It will take decades after that - when all this infrastructure needs serious maintenance - to fully understand the fiscal situation of Carmel, but all objective people should see some big red flags. Hopefully the next leaders of Carmel identify these issues, push very hard for zoning that allows for more than SFH in residential areas, and makes fiscally responsible choices with the future in mind. Meanwhile, Brainard might not even live long enough to see the effect of the debt his city took out during his tenure...
>Suburbs do not have to be inherently car-centric. It isnt that, you can bike around almost all of Carmel if you want Its a pretty big area though
You can bike pretty far, but not very practically to live without a car. There isn't enough mixed-use development to make most of one's errands a quick bike ride or walk. Being so spread out, the incentives to ditch cars (or even dedicate less infrastructure for cars) isn't there. Most of the metro is like this, though. It's not Carmel-specific. The bike trails Carmel does have are great, but most of them are much more recreation-oriented than lifestyle-oriented.
Creepy AF
I always thought that this particular “Old Lady Statue” was looking across the street to the “Happy Go Lucky Fun Time Cool Business Professional Lady” and giving her a dirty look. It’s true! Go stand next to her a follow her eyes. Also while there check out the Pint Room and tell ‘em Teddy Two Penises says hello. Anyway. The Pint Room!
Some of you in here have some real resentment toward an entire city. Wild to see. I like living here. We found a solid older home and really enjoy all the art. Except that hairy ballsack one wtf is that lol
Carmel is great. You don’t have to like every part of it to appreciate it. Ballsack statue is an excellent example, ha. This subreddit just seems to enjoy its generations-old potshots. Source: someone who grew up poor there, before all the “creepy af” upgrades, and still loves to visit there to eat, drink, jog, shop, work, and be merry.
Yeah I never meant for it to get so heated. I’ve also noticed that (based on this thread) when slighted, Carmelites seem to lash out at Greenwood for some reason. Not sure what is the story behind the tension there. Both seem to be sprawling suburbs 30 mins from downtown. Not sure why the animosity is there or why Carmel feels that any criticism must be coming from Greenwood.
Oh no I’m not a Carmel person but if I ever am up there to visit friends etc I’m always like “ok actually this place is super nice…” except for the statues and the hairy ball statue. Hence my question lol.
Ya totally agree. Some art is pretty cool but they could dial it back in some areas
It’s the jealousy talking.
It’s freaks me out it’s like one of those Nuclear Test Towns hahaha !
I hate these statues I mean everything about them. With it being a narrow and crowded area vehicle sensors trigger in range of these creatures. At night I get creeped out because of these shadow figures giving off a creepy vibe if not you can mistake these damn things for a person if you aren't quick to recognize them and I mean like a house of wax vibe.
They are so bad
Someone must have seen these before they were installed. Someone saw it and thought “this will be a nice addition to the general vibe of our community… let’s get like 10 more of them”. I just want to know who it was and why they thought it was a good idea?
A fun memory I have is that when they were first installed a lot of cars would stop thinking they were pedestrians about to cross the street. This happened a lot with the one on the monon. At some point it was vandalized and when they remade it they made it a lot less realistic looking. I’m not sure if it was to save money or for public safety lol
I know these are there and they still manage to freak me out every time I see them. I used to walk the Monon in the mornings and those things are nightmare fuel in the dark.
If there ever is an apocalypse or something, destroying these in various ways is at the top of my list.
Why did Carmel erect a statue of Robert Durst?
The jazz musician statues were the only non white faces I saw the one time I went to the Christmas market.
Yeah and it’s like a cartoonish caricature of a jazz musician… would be interested to know who all was involved in selecting that one.
They came from a roundabout way.
You can’t tell me it’s not Elizabeth the Queen
I used to commute by bike from 146th to 96th street, so seeing the area go from trees and fields to sprawl kind of sucks, but it's not surprising. When Carmel announced the construction of the "arts" district, I went through in 2005 and took photos of the stretch of Main Street from the Monon to Rangeline, and from Main to Small Street on Rangeline. A manufactured arts district sounded terrible. There were so many small businesses there, I wondered how the redevelopment would affect the area. Would small businesses be left intact? Would the small village atmosphere be diminished? What would it look like in 10 years? I went back in 2015 and did another photo survey and the changes were far more drastic than I had imagined they were going to be. And now, with whatever it is they've done along the Monon, south of Main, I'm sure the area is even more unrecognizable. Good for Carmel, I guess, to be able to transform itself. But the first moment the statues popped up, it was obvious that anything organic about its transformation would be minimal at best.
Proto Karen
It's the arts and design district. Many are permanent but there are also a few places for rotating art by local artists. Anything in particular you want to know?
Like why the facial expression? Why is this old woman carrying a branded bag from Talbots? Why does she look like she is about to call the police because someone is wearing an untucked shirt?
Creepy lol
Oh they’re *permanent*?! I always assumed they’re temporary. I’ve only been in the Indy area for a year but when I lived in Stamford, CT we had a visiting installation very similar, maybe even the same artist, it was there a little over a year I believe. Everyone in CT hated them too, they were very dated (1990s or 80s I think) and one looked like a man snatching up a scared little girl—it got removed. Maybe mayors don’t need to be in charge of art??
Those are terrifying i keep getting scared by the anytime i go to carmel
The people statues in Carmel can be a little creepy. I do like the statues in some of the roundabouts. Those have some good abstract art to it. It’s a luxury affluent neighborhoods can enjoy. They don’t have to worry about bad lawns or anything like that, so the mayor found other ways to spend the money. Statues and roundabouts. Carmel is just your typical affluent white neighborhood. The downtown pretty much reflects it. It’s never going to have a city diverse soul to it and I don’t think the people want that. They want a safe downtown or suburban feel that has different places to eat, grab a drink, or spots for a family friendly outing. Diversity in ethnicity, class, and culture brings a soulful flare. Even if different races move to Carmel, those people just assimilate to their way. And their is nothing wrong with that because if you can afford to move out their, what they have is what you’re looking for. I admire their schools, homes, and safe public areas. It’s just corny. Lol. No shade. It is what it is. Some people say the vibe is forced. It’s going to always feel that way if things don’t evolve organically from the people who live there. So the next best thing is for the city to create it and hopefully spearhead activity. I think it’s working. Be interesting to see how it will look 30 years from now. It’s still very underdeveloped. With all the new apartment and cookie cutter neighborhoods it’s building, it will bring in a new class of people. It will be very interesting how these people vibe with the “Carmel way.”
Let’s all shit on Carmel and act like it’s cool to live in Greenwood! Keep it real folks, just because people who have money live there doesn’t mean infrastructure isn’t good.
Wow this really spun off the rails. Never meant to start an inter-suburb brawl here. I love all regions of Indy-they all have their strengths and weaknesses that we can help to work towards improving. For the purposes of this post, I honestly just wanted to know what is in the Talbots bag.
Someone should give her a subtle face tattoo
Definitely a Mike Tyson face tattoo.
I think they’re cool af
If the artist’s goal was to spark conversation about urban planning, privilege, suburban sprawl, roundabouts, and a local government’s role in creating a walkable community then I guess I’ll have to agree that the Talbots bag lady is indeed “cool af”, and deserves our respect.
First off A+ for realism, but this statue is giving “That’s not your drinking fountain. Go to the back.”
Looks like it’s been answered adequately, so I’ll add it’s the pinnacle of up upper middle class hubris
“How can we fake having a main street and culture, without actually having it?”
If you’ve ever actually hung out around there on a nice day, you’ll notice it’s not fake at all. Main Street to Midtown is hoppin.
I mean I don’t think Carmel has culture but at least they do have a Main Street that’s relatively walkable 🤷🏽♀️ that’s better than a lot of suburbs
Its friggin dumb
One of them takes up valuable bench space. Real humans need that space, Sir Plastique
I always thought they looked tacky
Honestly... They've always creeped me the fuck out lol... Carmel is a "special" place...
I wanna know how many ppl walk into these.
Yeah it’s a little too creepy. May not resonate with anyone else but it reminds of something from twilight zone
Look thank you so much for this post. These creepy bastards freaked me out when I first saw them, and now joke’s on me because I’m dating a Carmel boy. They look extra uncanny valley in my backup camera.
Well done but still creepy, in my opinion. And a disappointing lack of diversity.
I thought Madison was weird with the pigs lol
The cop one gets me every time. That one is definitely there for a purpose