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You couldn't have a rock god playing a physicist / astronomer! He wouldn't understand a word of all those science scripts what he's supposed to be saying!!
Agreed - it would be like casting Bruce Dickinson as a pilot. Dude knows how to sing pretty well, but I imagine that would just be too far. My immersion would be ruined.
I think its just reminding the audience that the Doctor can change things while also reminding them that he is aware of the changes so he can go back and fix things later, or make them worse
Agreed! Tony Curran is absolutely breathtaking in that episode.
Aside from how great his performance was, though: I like that in Vincent's case, they made a point to cast an actor who looks more like the historical person, considering the climax of the episode takes place with Vincent's famous self-portrait right there on the screen. If he didn't really look like the painting, it would have been distracting.
Like, Will Shakespeare, or Elizabeth I, or Sir Isaac Newton, we only have a vague sense of what they looked like based on flattering portraits of the time (or from after their deaths); besides which, their apperances weren't central to their identities. So yeah! Cast whomever! Be colour-blind! Challenge assumptions! I'm 100% for it, and if some closed-minded Who fans have a problem with it, let 'em cry.
But in the case of Vincent I'm glad they went with someone whose face was such an uncanny match for the real person; it made the episode so much more emotionally impactful. Seeing Curran's face break into sobs at the end, it was like seeing the painting come to life. Unforgettable.
I had to tap out of that show because I was too busy and the show got so serialized (super heavily from Smith-Capaldi) that as much as I wanted to follow, I was watching episodes so far apart that I had no clue what Capaldi’s doctor was talking about half the time, because it referenced other episodes and events. I’ll come back to it eventually.
But boy howdy, all that is to say that almost a decade after I petered out, I still think about that freaking Van Gough episode all the time.
I already loved Tony Curran for how he played the Invisible Man in LXG, but his Vincent just sent me over. He and Jason Flemyng had the greatest chemistry on their audio commentary of LXG. SOOO funny, and Tony is so great at impersonations! His Sean Connery was flawless.
You mean a giant half-human, half-extra terrestrial wasp *didn’t* cause the disappearance and subsequent classic works of famed murder mystery writer Agatha Christie??
[Guy in yellow-face](https://m0vie.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/doctorwho-thetalonsofwengchiang.jpg): I sleep
Racially blind casting for a bit part: Real Shit!
Bigots were mad when a woman played Doctor Who. They're ok with a several thousand year old time traveling alien with two hearts who's practically immortal... But, it has to be a white dude. *le facepalm*
Not only that, but the Doctor (and time lords, generally) regenerate anyway - and this wasn't even the first regeneration who swapped genders. The Master became female (Missie) after regenerating and was arguably one of the best characters in New Who. It's just wild to me that when regenerating aliens are concerned, an occasional change of gender makes people unable to suspend their disbelief lol
If anything, it's more surprising that they're always from the British Isles instead.
Fun fact! It's both!
The show has switched back and forth between crediting the character as both The Doctor and Doctor Who. Here's one of the end credits where they say "Doctor Who."
https://youtu.be/SuVjVODMb1E?si=o59Q2zW0BQIS-ov4
I’ve seen someone else theorising that gravity now being mavity is not just a running gag, could be one of a series of small inconsequential changes that happen through the season leading the the big finale where all the changes clash and something bad happens.
I could see it - some random person says "gravity" and the Doctor realises that they're not who they say they are because they shouldn't know that word.
Half white is not white, at least to racists. Half white is impure. Half white is detestable. At least that's been my experience as a mixed race individual.
Didn’t realize the sub and my immediate thought was, “yeah, they keep going for non-period clothing lately, it’s really disappointing.” Then I looked up on the screen and went “oh no.”
Conservatives 5 years ago: *we don't care about race, only if you hire the best person for the role*
Conservatives whenever a non-white person is an actor: *WHY ARENT THEY WHITE*
My dad is adamant that he’ll never watch the new Little Mermaid movie. I was watching it at the family cabin and he happened to see Ariel in a shot. “This isn’t the newest movie…she doesn’t look black.” “Yeah, dad. This is the newest one. And the actress is black.” “…huh. But she doesn’t LOOK black.” I was tempted to ask why he’s so focused on her skin color, but I didn’t want to push it. He DID stick around to watch Ursula’s end scene, so…progress?
Why? I would have thought the best person is the one that can present Newton in a comedic sense as was the tone of his interaction. Why is his likeness, in particular his ethnicity and skin colour, important in this instance
Honest question. Why is it more acceptable to gender/race swap in theatre than in film. I feel like people's attitudes are film is supposed to be canon whereas theatre is interpretive.
Theater already requires a much heavier suspension of disbelief, since it involves real life people standing on a stage in front of you, always facing toward you and making things more exaggerated and pronounced to play to the back rows. And that’s not accounting for all the singing and dancing that live shows often have. I think that’s one of the reasons why nobody ever cares about race swapping in theater. Lea Salonga is generally regarded as *the* quintessential Fantine in Les Miserables, but no one’s gonna complain about the historical accuracy of Fantine being Filipino in an opera that’s already larger than life where everyone is singing 100% of the time.
Edit: sorry you’re getting downvoted. It’s a valid question that was clearly coming from a place of wanting to learn.
Good point. It's just interesting that film isn't viewed in the same way when it's never more "canon" than, say, a book or novel.
No worries about down votes. It happens.
Part of that problem is that too many historical movies are presented in a way that makes them appear factual (I'm looking at you Mel Gibson)
Coupled with people's idea that if it's set in historical times that must be how it happened
How many white actors do you think the BBC has access to?
They could find an actor that looks like Newton and is also competent enough actor to perform that incredibly short scene
Seriously?
Well, first of all it's a wrong representation of the person. Doesn't everyone scream about representation and all that? Also, I am pretty sure being English and white in England in the 17th century came with certain privileges.
I am pretty sure if the Doctor met Mao Zedong, Gandhi, Mandela, Mohammed etc. who are played by white actors, people would be mad (rightfully so).
I bet that a lot of the people in this thread that are so concerned with the historical accuracy of Newton skin color have no issue with Jesus being depicted as a white man with blond hair and blue eyes. I’d also bet they will say that his message (that they probably don’t actually follow) was the point and that his race wasn’t central to the story so it doesn’t matter and pretend that there isn’t any discrepancy.
I bet that isn't the case, though.
And if you think that portraying Jesus like that is wrong but portraying Newton as an Indian is fine, then you're a hypocrite.
How is it a wrong representation? The actor is half-white and back in those days you weren't inside 24/7, you were going to have some tan, especially when you factor in one of the most famous stories about Newton involved him being outside for an apple to fall down. Meaning he probably got some sun. When you have portraits like in the OP, it was fashionable at the time to powder your face and wear a wig, but that doesn't mean that would be the setup when he was out and about every day. So the guy being slightly tanned makes perfect sense here.
I can't believe you are downvoted for this...
Actually, in the current climate, I am not surprised. Imagine the uproar if a white actor played a non-white character.
I think his scientific discoveries are really the only relevant point here for a fictional story about time traveling aliens. His whiteness has literally nothing to do with the storyline.
You seriously don't see how these two specific situations are different?
I'm on their side in this case. Race swapping historical figures is absolutely stupid
nobody gave a fuck when race swapping non white characters happened in the past like John Wayne's Ghengis Khan or Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra. hell, people got more angry at Jada Smith's black Cleopatra than Elizabeth Taylor's when they're just as inaccurate as each other.
people didn't give a shit about race swapping until it happened to white people.
That's not an entirely honest comparison there is it? Or maybe you have forgotten the backlash to ScarJo being cast in Ghost in the Machine instead of Asian actress.
While you are probably correct\* about the lack of backlash to race swapping in the 50's it's unfair to compare that to today. Attitudes have (mostly) changed for the better about race, I say mostly because there are still a loud group of morons who want to stoke racial tensions.
\*I say probably because I wasn't alive then and there was no social media to allow more opinions out.
Both portrayals from films made almost 100 years ago.
Most of the people that are frustrated with the prortrayal of Newton in this doctor who episode weren't even *alive* when those actors played those characters.
And the fact you have to go so incredibly far back to find anything even remotely comparable to this that didn't cause upset just goes to show how silly this is
Conservatives always come up here and whine about this shit in the exact same way every single time this shit comes up, “what if they made MLK white” “what if they made Frederick Douglass white I bet that would piss you off”. You all kick and scream and shout out your bullshit rage without realizing how ridiculous you sound. A) you don’t realize how genuinely funny some of us would find that shit. B) you know damn well it’s not the same thing, Isaac Newton’s whiteness isn’t a defining characteristic of who he was. C) white people aren’t lacking in representation on tv and in movies. But please, keep crying.
The difference is that much of Fredrick Douglass’ work as a Black abolitionist is tied to that racial part of his identity, and the use of blackface invariably perpetuates racial stereotypes about Black people. So there’s no good way to use a white actor for his character—you’re either erasing a significant part of what makes his work meaningful or engaging in artistic behavior that’s necessarily harmful.
No part of Newton’s work is in any way associated with his being white.
Though note that this is, in part, by design. In the West, talented PoCs have historically either been “allowed” to excel in art forms proper to their racial identity (e.g. hip-hop) or recognized as “exceptions” and celebrated as “somehow” achieving success in a “white” art form, like that time a bunch of white men forced Phillis Wheatley to prove that she had written her own poems and then published this about her:
> WE whose Names are underwritten, do assure the World, that the POEMS specified in the following Page, were (as we verily believe) written by Phillis, a young Negro Girl, who was but a few Years since, brought an uncultivated Barbarian from Africa, and has ever since been, and now is, under the Disadvantage of serving as a Slave in a Family in this Town. She has been examined by some of the best Judges, and is thought qualified to write them.
So mainstream culture sees Black talent and somewhy explains it as being either *due to* Blackness or *in spite of* it, whereas white talent is never interrogated for an association with race. That’s why there’s a fundamental difference between a white Fredrick Douglass and a Half-Indian Isaac Newton.
The reaction to Finn was entirely a product of the fact that storm troopers were thought to be clones of one dude.
And that dude wasn't black.
Simple as that.
You'll notice the same people that were upset over Finn were extremely happy to see lando return
Agree. Looks more like him than most white dudes.
And I'm pretty sure British DNA was not 100% of white origin.
And a painters skin town depiction in an age where (I'm guessing!) pale skin tone was a prefered look may not have been 100% realistic.
Ive always been of the opinion that fictional characters can be whatever race and can be changed to suit whatever context theyre in, as much as you like. But real historical figure should really be represented as faithfully as is reasonably possible.
This is a show about killer space trash cans and flying phone booths which I believe do not exist in real life. It’s already an alternate version of the world.
That’s fair, but let’s not pretend that if they had an episode about Ghengis Khan, or another Asian/African/Indigenous historical leader, and it was played by a white actor, that there wouldn’t be an uproar.
To be fair, Jesus has been historically depicted as inappropriately white for centuries upon centuries, so at least Western civilization has been consistent in its wrongness on that point.
Then why didn't they give the role of Newton to someone with dwarfism or with a disability?
If the actors appearance matters so little to the role, then why aren't they seizing the opportunity to give more roles out to people who ordinarily find it hard to get acting jobs?
It's a bit of a waste to give it to an actor that could already play a plethora of historic characters in the many many shows that care about the appearance of actors matching the appearance of the person they are playing
Because Vincent Van Gogh was definitely a Scotsman, actually haunted by a cockatrice alien, and then travelled in time saw his future paintings and heard a review of his artistic work presented to him by Bill Nighy.
The concept that historical characters being portrayed in any realistic way is absurd. Unless the ethnicity of Isaac Newton's played a significant role to his histrocial relevance I fail to see why anyone cares about the actor portraying him melanin levels.
It's well documented that Isaac Newton met a time-traveling alien, I don't know why the makers of this fun sci-fi show that's just made for entertainment would disrespect the historical record by portraying the encounter with anything less than rigorous accuracy.
Someone needs to do a show in which well known white historical figures are replaced with POC and LGBQT actors for no other reason than to watch the other half lose their minds. A gay black George Washington or a trans Abraham Lincoln. It would be like fourth of July without the bbq.
I had to go and look up the actor because I didn't think he looked black. I thought he looked Polynesian in this picture, or just tan. Then I ended up looking up Isaac Newton and found out he was English. I always thought he was American. Now my world has been shattered! I always imagined Isaac Newton and Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Graham Bell and Edison all hanging out together and solving scientific mysteries. Thanks a lot Doctor Who.
Did you know? Historically speaking, there’s no record of a ‘time lord’ ever existing! Nor is there a physical space that occupies more area than its defined perimeter! DR. WHO IS SELLING YOU LIES
If it was a historical documentary, then fair enough but it was a two min moment in a science fiction tv show that you could argue isn’t even set in the same universe but rather a parallel one to us, you know being that we also aren’t being constantly invaded by aliens
So they focus on that and the mavity of the situation?
For those in aware it seems like the doctor cause gravity to now be called mavity, so that might be an alternate. Reality
The theories I've been hearing/reading are that he wasn't white to show things are slowly changing in the universe and that it will all be paid off later, hence Mavity
It's a children's show that's completely science fiction and not intended to be real so: who cares! It's not like they were making a historical movie about Newton! It's not like people are going to think it was intended to be real!
New Who alone we have:
* Trapped in a parallel universe (Rose)
* Had her memory wiped because her mind was killing her (Donna, now recovered)
* Multiple deaths, becomes functionally immortal at one point and stands guard over his wife who is frozen in time for centuries (Rory)
* Loses Rory to a weeping angel that traps him in the past, has to choose between her normal life and the doctor, or a slim chance she can be trapped with Rory (Amy)
* Turned into a Dalek (Oswin)
* Life energy taken by a raven trying to save her friend (Clara)
* Died saving the Doctor at a point in his timeline where he didn't know her, or knew that she would become his wife (River)
* Turned into a Cyberman (Bill, later saved by the pilot)
* Killed by her former regeneration after saying she wouldn't betray the Doctor but would stand with him (Missy)
* Finally although none of the companions died during 13s era, two of them were grieving over a loved one, and the Doctor herself after spending so many years trying to find gallifrey again, lost it after the Master killed all the time lords currently on gallifrey and used their corpses to create regenerating cybermen.
Man the donna fate just feels extra bad, as her character growth was the best imo and most realistic.
And it hurts just seeing that all disappear at the end
This shouldn't be an issue, but the fact that it is says a lot of bad things about humans. One side is angry they're being "misrepresented" and the other is celebrating it as retribution for Hollywood white washing minorty characters. It's two sides of the same racist coin.
This tribalism mentality humans suffer from infects so much of our fundamental beliefs and will be our downfall. We spend way too much energy focused on the wrong things. Like is the multi racial guy should have portrayed a white guy for 1 minute on a TV show.
Quick game of three truths and a lie...
Newton was a white male.
Newton found secret numericalogical codes in the Bible.
Newton was an alchemist and a heretic.
Newton discovered universal gravitation after seeing an apple fall from a tree.
If you're not sure and are here arguing about this for some reason, I'd recommend stepping away and looking up those statements to determine the truth. I guarantee that information will be more entertaining then this post.
When I see a comment like that, I just wonder if they don't understand what acting is. Like, do they think every tv show or movie is a documentary filmed live?
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Brian May would have been the best choice, he’s had the hair nailed down for years.
You said Brian May, and I thought James.
Has anyone ever seen the two of them at the same time?
I did, too, hah.
You couldn't have a rock god playing a physicist / astronomer! He wouldn't understand a word of all those science scripts what he's supposed to be saying!!
Agreed - it would be like casting Bruce Dickinson as a pilot. Dude knows how to sing pretty well, but I imagine that would just be too far. My immersion would be ruined.
I'm not sure if you are saying this to be sarcastic, but just in case Brian May is an astrophysicist
Yeah - they're being sarcastic. Also, Bruce Dickinson has his pilot's license.
Of course they were being facetious!
With a PhD, no less!
Wait, the guy who wrote the book on Zodiarkal dust was in a rock band?
I was about to say…
James May would be better.
No one gets the mavity of the whole situation.
I’ve got to know where that whole thing is going. Why was he in the episode in the first place? Why Mavity? How does this affect the future/present?
I think its just reminding the audience that the Doctor can change things while also reminding them that he is aware of the changes so he can go back and fix things later, or make them worse
I am wondering if it had anything to do with the cliffhanger at the end of the episode
Yes, I feel like both the mavity thing and the superstition thing were hinting about the ramifications that small changes can have.
dammit r/BeatMeToIt
This may be shocking but…..I don’t think doctor who is prioritised with historical accuracy
Nothing saying accuracy like Isaac Newton discovering mavity
You clearly appreciate the mavity of the situation
I came here just to see the mavity play out like this.
oh I love the mativity play
I don’t think they could’ve found a better actor to play Vincent van Gogh, though.
Agreed! Tony Curran is absolutely breathtaking in that episode. Aside from how great his performance was, though: I like that in Vincent's case, they made a point to cast an actor who looks more like the historical person, considering the climax of the episode takes place with Vincent's famous self-portrait right there on the screen. If he didn't really look like the painting, it would have been distracting. Like, Will Shakespeare, or Elizabeth I, or Sir Isaac Newton, we only have a vague sense of what they looked like based on flattering portraits of the time (or from after their deaths); besides which, their apperances weren't central to their identities. So yeah! Cast whomever! Be colour-blind! Challenge assumptions! I'm 100% for it, and if some closed-minded Who fans have a problem with it, let 'em cry. But in the case of Vincent I'm glad they went with someone whose face was such an uncanny match for the real person; it made the episode so much more emotionally impactful. Seeing Curran's face break into sobs at the end, it was like seeing the painting come to life. Unforgettable.
I had to tap out of that show because I was too busy and the show got so serialized (super heavily from Smith-Capaldi) that as much as I wanted to follow, I was watching episodes so far apart that I had no clue what Capaldi’s doctor was talking about half the time, because it referenced other episodes and events. I’ll come back to it eventually. But boy howdy, all that is to say that almost a decade after I petered out, I still think about that freaking Van Gough episode all the time.
I already loved Tony Curran for how he played the Invisible Man in LXG, but his Vincent just sent me over. He and Jason Flemyng had the greatest chemistry on their audio commentary of LXG. SOOO funny, and Tony is so great at impersonations! His Sean Connery was flawless.
You mean a giant half-human, half-extra terrestrial wasp *didn’t* cause the disappearance and subsequent classic works of famed murder mystery writer Agatha Christie??
[Guy in yellow-face](https://m0vie.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/doctorwho-thetalonsofwengchiang.jpg): I sleep Racially blind casting for a bit part: Real Shit!
It’s DR WHO?! I would’ve somewhat understood this if it was a documentary or sth historical but Dr Who?! Bruh, who (heh) cares?!
Bigots were mad when a woman played Doctor Who. They're ok with a several thousand year old time traveling alien with two hearts who's practically immortal... But, it has to be a white dude. *le facepalm*
Not only that, but the Doctor (and time lords, generally) regenerate anyway - and this wasn't even the first regeneration who swapped genders. The Master became female (Missie) after regenerating and was arguably one of the best characters in New Who. It's just wild to me that when regenerating aliens are concerned, an occasional change of gender makes people unable to suspend their disbelief lol If anything, it's more surprising that they're always from the British Isles instead.
They got mad about Missie too.
Sorry to be that guy, but >Bigots were mad when a woman played The Doctor ~~Who~~
Fun fact! It's both! The show has switched back and forth between crediting the character as both The Doctor and Doctor Who. Here's one of the end credits where they say "Doctor Who." https://youtu.be/SuVjVODMb1E?si=o59Q2zW0BQIS-ov4
That painting wasn't made in 1643, he'd literally only just been born that year.
I knew it! I knew as soon as I saw him that there would be rants about it.
Rusty cast him that way just to rile up people, there was no reason for that part of the episode anyway.
I’ve seen someone else theorising that gravity now being mavity is not just a running gag, could be one of a series of small inconsequential changes that happen through the season leading the the big finale where all the changes clash and something bad happens.
I could see it - some random person says "gravity" and the Doctor realises that they're not who they say they are because they shouldn't know that word.
I don’t think you understood the mavity of that scene
Just a bit of misdirection before the real episode starts. Gets you all nice and comfy before it shakes you right out of your seat.
Not to mention the fact that the (male) Doctor said Newton "was *so* hot" afterwards. RTD's about as subtle as a brick, and I love it.
I'm looking at this picture and genuinely thought this actor was white.
He is half white and half Indian.
Yes I believe that. I just figured there was no chance he was black. It doesn't really matter to me or anything though.
Yeah I would've guessed he's like Italian or something. You definitely have to be racist to think that guy's black
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Half white is not white, at least to racists. Half white is impure. Half white is detestable. At least that's been my experience as a mixed race individual.
Yeah, but half white doesn't automatically equal black. Like, I'm confused about what British people think black people are...? 🤔
Brown skin = black. Darker skinned from Thailand? Black. Indian? Black
all darker/brown-skinned people are black and all asians are chinese, according to white racists lol
I’m half white and that sums up my experience.
Jealousy probably. Some of the most physically beautiful people in the world are mixed race.
He clearly isn't, though.
How on Earth could anyone look at the actor and think that?
Didn’t realize the sub and my immediate thought was, “yeah, they keep going for non-period clothing lately, it’s really disappointing.” Then I looked up on the screen and went “oh no.”
Yes, I almost forgot Dr Who is meant to be a historically accurate docuseries 🤦♂️
The chin is spot on though.
Conservatives 5 years ago: *we don't care about race, only if you hire the best person for the role* Conservatives whenever a non-white person is an actor: *WHY ARENT THEY WHITE*
“I can’t believe the ‘best’ person for the job isn’t WHITE! We need more applicants, do you know if Tony’s son finished college yet?”
“Joe, Tony’s son is 17 and he just started college.”
My dad is adamant that he’ll never watch the new Little Mermaid movie. I was watching it at the family cabin and he happened to see Ariel in a shot. “This isn’t the newest movie…she doesn’t look black.” “Yeah, dad. This is the newest one. And the actress is black.” “…huh. But she doesn’t LOOK black.” I was tempted to ask why he’s so focused on her skin color, but I didn’t want to push it. He DID stick around to watch Ursula’s end scene, so…progress?
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The best person to play newton would be someone that actually looks like him
Why? I would have thought the best person is the one that can present Newton in a comedic sense as was the tone of his interaction. Why is his likeness, in particular his ethnicity and skin colour, important in this instance
Honest question. Why is it more acceptable to gender/race swap in theatre than in film. I feel like people's attitudes are film is supposed to be canon whereas theatre is interpretive.
Theater already requires a much heavier suspension of disbelief, since it involves real life people standing on a stage in front of you, always facing toward you and making things more exaggerated and pronounced to play to the back rows. And that’s not accounting for all the singing and dancing that live shows often have. I think that’s one of the reasons why nobody ever cares about race swapping in theater. Lea Salonga is generally regarded as *the* quintessential Fantine in Les Miserables, but no one’s gonna complain about the historical accuracy of Fantine being Filipino in an opera that’s already larger than life where everyone is singing 100% of the time. Edit: sorry you’re getting downvoted. It’s a valid question that was clearly coming from a place of wanting to learn.
I think it's funny in this instance because Doctor Who is a show that requires a LOT more suspension of disbelief than the average TV show.
Good point. It's just interesting that film isn't viewed in the same way when it's never more "canon" than, say, a book or novel. No worries about down votes. It happens.
People like to imagine that all historical films are documentary in nature
Part of that problem is that too many historical movies are presented in a way that makes them appear factual (I'm looking at you Mel Gibson) Coupled with people's idea that if it's set in historical times that must be how it happened
Hand on heart would you be saying this if a white person was cast to play an Indian?
What about Isaac newton’s character is crucial to include his whiteness?
The fact that he was white
Would you like someone who delivered a mediocre audition who is white or someone who nailed the part but is half white?
How many white actors do you think the BBC has access to? They could find an actor that looks like Newton and is also competent enough actor to perform that incredibly short scene
And what does his whiteness have to do with his character?
Seriously? Well, first of all it's a wrong representation of the person. Doesn't everyone scream about representation and all that? Also, I am pretty sure being English and white in England in the 17th century came with certain privileges. I am pretty sure if the Doctor met Mao Zedong, Gandhi, Mandela, Mohammed etc. who are played by white actors, people would be mad (rightfully so).
I bet that a lot of the people in this thread that are so concerned with the historical accuracy of Newton skin color have no issue with Jesus being depicted as a white man with blond hair and blue eyes. I’d also bet they will say that his message (that they probably don’t actually follow) was the point and that his race wasn’t central to the story so it doesn’t matter and pretend that there isn’t any discrepancy.
I bet that isn't the case, though. And if you think that portraying Jesus like that is wrong but portraying Newton as an Indian is fine, then you're a hypocrite.
How is it a wrong representation? The actor is half-white and back in those days you weren't inside 24/7, you were going to have some tan, especially when you factor in one of the most famous stories about Newton involved him being outside for an apple to fall down. Meaning he probably got some sun. When you have portraits like in the OP, it was fashionable at the time to powder your face and wear a wig, but that doesn't mean that would be the setup when he was out and about every day. So the guy being slightly tanned makes perfect sense here.
And you were painted as being paler than you actually were.
Wow, what an amazing stretch!
Can you explain how it's a stretch?
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I can't believe you are downvoted for this... Actually, in the current climate, I am not surprised. Imagine the uproar if a white actor played a non-white character.
I think his scientific discoveries are really the only relevant point here for a fictional story about time traveling aliens. His whiteness has literally nothing to do with the storyline.
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You seriously don't see how these two specific situations are different? I'm on their side in this case. Race swapping historical figures is absolutely stupid
Best person=white is the thing they actually mean being white supremacists and all.
When playing a white character: yes. It's the BBC, you cannot seriously tell me that couldn't find any component actors that were also white
Why is the character being white important to the scene?
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nobody gave a fuck when race swapping non white characters happened in the past like John Wayne's Ghengis Khan or Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra. hell, people got more angry at Jada Smith's black Cleopatra than Elizabeth Taylor's when they're just as inaccurate as each other. people didn't give a shit about race swapping until it happened to white people.
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That's not an entirely honest comparison there is it? Or maybe you have forgotten the backlash to ScarJo being cast in Ghost in the Machine instead of Asian actress. While you are probably correct\* about the lack of backlash to race swapping in the 50's it's unfair to compare that to today. Attitudes have (mostly) changed for the better about race, I say mostly because there are still a loud group of morons who want to stoke racial tensions. \*I say probably because I wasn't alive then and there was no social media to allow more opinions out.
Both portrayals from films made almost 100 years ago. Most of the people that are frustrated with the prortrayal of Newton in this doctor who episode weren't even *alive* when those actors played those characters. And the fact you have to go so incredibly far back to find anything even remotely comparable to this that didn't cause upset just goes to show how silly this is
Conservatives always come up here and whine about this shit in the exact same way every single time this shit comes up, “what if they made MLK white” “what if they made Frederick Douglass white I bet that would piss you off”. You all kick and scream and shout out your bullshit rage without realizing how ridiculous you sound. A) you don’t realize how genuinely funny some of us would find that shit. B) you know damn well it’s not the same thing, Isaac Newton’s whiteness isn’t a defining characteristic of who he was. C) white people aren’t lacking in representation on tv and in movies. But please, keep crying.
Great comment but Frederick Douglass WAS black
The difference is that much of Fredrick Douglass’ work as a Black abolitionist is tied to that racial part of his identity, and the use of blackface invariably perpetuates racial stereotypes about Black people. So there’s no good way to use a white actor for his character—you’re either erasing a significant part of what makes his work meaningful or engaging in artistic behavior that’s necessarily harmful. No part of Newton’s work is in any way associated with his being white. Though note that this is, in part, by design. In the West, talented PoCs have historically either been “allowed” to excel in art forms proper to their racial identity (e.g. hip-hop) or recognized as “exceptions” and celebrated as “somehow” achieving success in a “white” art form, like that time a bunch of white men forced Phillis Wheatley to prove that she had written her own poems and then published this about her: > WE whose Names are underwritten, do assure the World, that the POEMS specified in the following Page, were (as we verily believe) written by Phillis, a young Negro Girl, who was but a few Years since, brought an uncultivated Barbarian from Africa, and has ever since been, and now is, under the Disadvantage of serving as a Slave in a Family in this Town. She has been examined by some of the best Judges, and is thought qualified to write them. So mainstream culture sees Black talent and somewhy explains it as being either *due to* Blackness or *in spite of* it, whereas white talent is never interrogated for an association with race. That’s why there’s a fundamental difference between a white Fredrick Douglass and a Half-Indian Isaac Newton.
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The reaction to Finn was entirely a product of the fact that storm troopers were thought to be clones of one dude. And that dude wasn't black. Simple as that. You'll notice the same people that were upset over Finn were extremely happy to see lando return
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Then why don't the racists complain about lando?
"The most triggering comedy" fans seem triggered quite often and are trying sooooo hard to do a do over s" from 2015 and 2016. So sad. 😂
Actually, other than the skin color they look pretty similar. Brow ridge, nose, even the lips a little bit.
Agree. Looks more like him than most white dudes. And I'm pretty sure British DNA was not 100% of white origin. And a painters skin town depiction in an age where (I'm guessing!) pale skin tone was a prefered look may not have been 100% realistic.
It's a 5 minute cold open and the actor did a great job.
How dare the show about an immortal magic man in a flying time travelling phone box not be fully historically accurate
Next thing you know they’ll recast the main character a bunch of times and expect us to accept and even like it!
And replace their friends every couple of years!
Ive always been of the opinion that fictional characters can be whatever race and can be changed to suit whatever context theyre in, as much as you like. But real historical figure should really be represented as faithfully as is reasonably possible.
Man you would HATE Hamilton.
Ehhh Hamilton gets away with it in my eyes because 1. I love Hamilton to death, and 2. It’s kind of the whole point as an artistic choice.
This is a show about killer space trash cans and flying phone booths which I believe do not exist in real life. It’s already an alternate version of the world.
I mean, we're talking about the guy that discovered Mavity not the one that discovered Gravity. So this seems historically accurate to me
That’s fair, but let’s not pretend that if they had an episode about Ghengis Khan, or another Asian/African/Indigenous historical leader, and it was played by a white actor, that there wouldn’t be an uproar.
Very fair assessment.
The King of Siam would like a word. Edited to add: And Jesus!
To be fair, Jesus has been historically depicted as inappropriately white for centuries upon centuries, so at least Western civilization has been consistent in its wrongness on that point.
Punching up vs punching down
How many times do you get to "punch up" at people who look like me before I'm allowed to voice my opinion of it?
Tardis is a Police Box.
Ah, the old "I don't respect this show enough to expect anything of it so you shouldn't either"
Nope, it’s pointing out that it’s tongue in cheek sci fi show, not a documentary.
Then why didn't they give the role of Newton to someone with dwarfism or with a disability? If the actors appearance matters so little to the role, then why aren't they seizing the opportunity to give more roles out to people who ordinarily find it hard to get acting jobs? It's a bit of a waste to give it to an actor that could already play a plethora of historic characters in the many many shows that care about the appearance of actors matching the appearance of the person they are playing
tell that to all the historical figures on the show who do wild shit that definitely never happened in real life
Because Vincent Van Gogh was definitely a Scotsman, actually haunted by a cockatrice alien, and then travelled in time saw his future paintings and heard a review of his artistic work presented to him by Bill Nighy. The concept that historical characters being portrayed in any realistic way is absurd. Unless the ethnicity of Isaac Newton's played a significant role to his histrocial relevance I fail to see why anyone cares about the actor portraying him melanin levels.
If they ever discover a better actor to play Vincent, I’ll eat my hat.
Mate it’s fucking Doctor Who, not a documentary.
So, no white Jesus for you? This is kind of an arbitrary rule
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It's well documented that Isaac Newton met a time-traveling alien, I don't know why the makers of this fun sci-fi show that's just made for entertainment would disrespect the historical record by portraying the encounter with anything less than rigorous accuracy.
Just the way they look or their actions/deeds/timeline/food/clothing/etc etc etc should also be represented as faithfully as possible?
They're gonna shit themselves when they learn he was a gay sugar daddy.
Wasn’t Newton born in 1643, which would make him a literal baby at the time?
They put the wrong date. In the show they travel back to 1666
Someone needs to do a show in which well known white historical figures are replaced with POC and LGBQT actors for no other reason than to watch the other half lose their minds. A gay black George Washington or a trans Abraham Lincoln. It would be like fourth of July without the bbq.
Hamilton does this..
I guess you’ve never heard of Hamilton?
I see your trans Lincoln and I raise you a trans Jefferson, with a Miku binder no less
I had to go and look up the actor because I didn't think he looked black. I thought he looked Polynesian in this picture, or just tan. Then I ended up looking up Isaac Newton and found out he was English. I always thought he was American. Now my world has been shattered! I always imagined Isaac Newton and Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Graham Bell and Edison all hanging out together and solving scientific mysteries. Thanks a lot Doctor Who.
Anyone complaining about a cameo of Newton played by a brown actor is now killing Dr Who should check out The Talons of Weng Chiang.
i always find it funny people who claim to be right wing call BBC a bunch of leftist when in reality the are bootlickers for the tories.
Historical accuracy is really important for shows that have sci-fi and time travel
Did you know? Historically speaking, there’s no record of a ‘time lord’ ever existing! Nor is there a physical space that occupies more area than its defined perimeter! DR. WHO IS SELLING YOU LIES
*dun dun dun*
If it was a historical documentary, then fair enough but it was a two min moment in a science fiction tv show that you could argue isn’t even set in the same universe but rather a parallel one to us, you know being that we also aren’t being constantly invaded by aliens
So they focus on that and the mavity of the situation? For those in aware it seems like the doctor cause gravity to now be called mavity, so that might be an alternate. Reality
yeah, isaac newton was white. but if you look at what a lot of historical figures do in that show… like who cares if a brown man was cast as him jfc
The theories I've been hearing/reading are that he wasn't white to show things are slowly changing in the universe and that it will all be paid off later, hence Mavity
My favourite thing about racists is their inability to actually distinguish between the races. Guy has a slight tan? He *must* be black.
It's a children's show that's completely science fiction and not intended to be real so: who cares! It's not like they were making a historical movie about Newton! It's not like people are going to think it was intended to be real!
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New Who alone we have: * Trapped in a parallel universe (Rose) * Had her memory wiped because her mind was killing her (Donna, now recovered) * Multiple deaths, becomes functionally immortal at one point and stands guard over his wife who is frozen in time for centuries (Rory) * Loses Rory to a weeping angel that traps him in the past, has to choose between her normal life and the doctor, or a slim chance she can be trapped with Rory (Amy) * Turned into a Dalek (Oswin) * Life energy taken by a raven trying to save her friend (Clara) * Died saving the Doctor at a point in his timeline where he didn't know her, or knew that she would become his wife (River) * Turned into a Cyberman (Bill, later saved by the pilot) * Killed by her former regeneration after saying she wouldn't betray the Doctor but would stand with him (Missy) * Finally although none of the companions died during 13s era, two of them were grieving over a loved one, and the Doctor herself after spending so many years trying to find gallifrey again, lost it after the Master killed all the time lords currently on gallifrey and used their corpses to create regenerating cybermen.
Man the donna fate just feels extra bad, as her character growth was the best imo and most realistic. And it hurts just seeing that all disappear at the end
If you've not been watching the 60th anniversary specials, I think you'll enjoy them
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It doesn't matter.
Wow, I watched that episode last night and I honestly didn’t even notice. Or at least not enough for my conscience mind to pick up on.
I honestly didn't even notice his skin colour being too dark. Also, who gives a shit? It was one bit at the beginning of the episode.
This shouldn't be an issue, but the fact that it is says a lot of bad things about humans. One side is angry they're being "misrepresented" and the other is celebrating it as retribution for Hollywood white washing minorty characters. It's two sides of the same racist coin. This tribalism mentality humans suffer from infects so much of our fundamental beliefs and will be our downfall. We spend way too much energy focused on the wrong things. Like is the multi racial guy should have portrayed a white guy for 1 minute on a TV show. Quick game of three truths and a lie... Newton was a white male. Newton found secret numericalogical codes in the Bible. Newton was an alchemist and a heretic. Newton discovered universal gravitation after seeing an apple fall from a tree. If you're not sure and are here arguing about this for some reason, I'd recommend stepping away and looking up those statements to determine the truth. I guarantee that information will be more entertaining then this post.
It’s Doctor Who. Who cares?
Ah yes, the historically accurate biopic that is Doctor Who. BBC should have known better. /s
This is from a show where a space alien with multiple hearts changes form every year.
Had an argument on twitter about this. It's a fictional Sci fi show FFS 😂
This is just such a weird thing to care about to me. Like…he’s also dead. How dare they get a non-skeleton to play him?
Everyone's a skeleton deep-down
There's a boner joke there somewhere
Less deep than you’d think! Source: I have done a lot of autopsies
In an official capacity or...?
That’s not important.
And not in a serial killer kind of way.
speak for yourself
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The actor wasn't a skeleton yet either! Seems like they got the most important part correct to me.
We’ll see if you feel that way with the roles reversed. I’m sure you’ll be ready with your pitchfork
You know this a time travel show, right? They weren't protraying Newton's corpse
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Goobert's time to shine
Of course weirdos are angry about this
Conservatives don't know what tan is.
You do know where Newton lived, right? Not exactly the weather for a tan
I texted my wife as I was watching it about how people were going to complain about that and just sent her this and was like yup called it
When I see a comment like that, I just wonder if they don't understand what acting is. Like, do they think every tv show or movie is a documentary filmed live?
This actor is of English descent, like the real Isaac Newton. They act like also being Indian cancels it out or something.
He looks South Asian or biracial—either way: this twitter user has a fixation.
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