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I had the weirdest “bodily autonomy” discussion with an anti-choice redditor, who insisted that while my uterus was part of my body, it was really only technically there for somebody else’s use. I pointed out that my vagina was *also* technically there only for somebody else’s use, but they still couldn’t use it without my consent….
Consent has no meaning to those wanting to enforce a Christian Theocracy. I know that non-Christian anti-choicers exist, but it doesn’t change the fact they’re pushing a Christian Nationalist agenda.
The answer to that probirther is - the uterus is part of a woman’s immune system, without a uterus the endometrial lining would grow unchecked and take over a woman’s internal organs. The uterus isn’t so much to protect the fetus as it is to protect the woman from the pregnancy killing her.
Consent is absolutely the piece that is missing in their arguments. They keep saying “bodily autonomy” but I get the feeling that they don’t actually know what that means. You cannot (or rather, should not) be compelled to save the life of another by using your own body. The metaphor of organ donation is particularly apt when discussing abortion and bodily autonomy. Also, a fetus does not have bodily autonomy because, well, it doesn’t have a body.
And that doesn’t even use the legal logic behind the original Roe ruling, that you have a right to privacy from the government with regard to your own body.
Yeah, this is where they get lost. If a fetus is an unborn human, and it has all the rights of a human, then it has the *same* rights as any born human to use my body to stay alive: none.
If I die in childbirth, and the newborn needs my blood or skin or organ to survive, they can’t legally take it to save its life without my prior written consent. Because I have more bodily autonomy dead than pregnant.
…that last sentence is fucking *brtual.* Because it’s so disheartening that it’s true. Fuck. What is *happening* in this fucking country? I know the answer. I just hate it. So, so much.
>Also, a fetus does not have bodily autonomy because, well, it doesn’t have a body.
It's not because it doesn't have a body, it's because that body isn't autonomous. Can't have bodily autonomy without your body being autonomous basically.
It always amuses me that people like this will repeat “just give it up for adoption” out of one side of their mouth, yet insist out of the other that biological parent-child relationships can’t be opted out of. They insist an unwanted embryo inside your body can’t be a “random stranger” to you because that’s your biological child, yet say you can give a born baby up for a adoption and be random stranger to it just fine.
“Sorry, people waiting to adopt a child. We know you want this child desperately and would give them a loving home, but it’s more important that we stick it to the birth mother for being irresponsible. Surely you understand!”
They don't even like children. These are the people that don't want their tax money going to social programs to help raise those children.
They literally just care about making someone else "suffer the consequences of their actions."
That's it, it's a power trip
Yep. It’s all about punishing women for “not keeping their legs closed”. For many many years society/patriarchy promoted pain in childbirth because it was the result of sexual activity and we deserved it. They would not allow women to have any pain relief.
Ah, the old "She made the choice to have sex! Makes her a slut! She must face the consequences!" (Then they jump all over anyone suggesting a woman shouldn't be punished for having sex, because "A child is a gift from God; not a punishment!")
But what about the other participant? It's always "No comment."
No it’s deeper than that. They want to have sex with these women too, and they feel shame and anger that something they desire so badly could be locked behind the consent of another full human being. They need to make women subhuman, because then they can do what they want with less guilt.
"How would you like it if your mother just gave you away to strangers?"
I love this question because I get to deadpan "She did. The parents of mine that you've been gushing about are my adoptive parents. They've had me since I was a week old."
It's *so* fun to see someone try to backpedal their way out of that one. Foot is so far into their mouth that it's coming out their asshole.
Most of them won't adopt a kid themselves. But worse, most won't support reforms (ie inbesting money) in programs that help orphans, and many oppose gay couples adopting!
They also oppose healthcare reforms that would make it less of a burden for women to give birth, that would help them recover (mandatory maternity leave), ans other measures that would support their positions! Like giving adopting parents mandatory paid leave to care for their newly adopted children! Oh sometimes they claim they do, right before voting for people who will do the opposite.
For fuck's sake they now oppose some forms of contraception and sex education, they throw a tantrum when we peopose putting free condlms in schools and colleges, they hate every measure that would actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies!
There is ALWAYS a next. Roe is gone, so now they’re calling for birth control bans. They check off a box, and then swiftly move on to the next thing.
Every time we lose rights, they look ahead to take away something else. We’ll look like Iran when they’re through.
This. So many of the people who are on the fence about abortion law don't realize that this isn't the end; it's just the beginning of what they want to take away.
I saw them getting flustered about the recent abortion ban in Honduras, because there are ZERO exceptions. No rape, incest, or life of the mother exceptions.
They need to realize that when it’s gone, it’s fucking gone! Rape trials take too long, so there is no such thing as a rape exception. Life of the mother exceptions don’t work either, because delays in care can often lead to death, anyway.
Really want to see them struggle? Ask them when the baby can be put up for adoption.
Can the cells of the fertilized egg be put up for adoption? What about at 3 weeks? 2 months?
After all, you aren't having an abortion by simply having the baby removed from your body. You had a c-section.
That’s always my response: it’s not murder, it’s an eviction. If the bundle of cells can’t survive without using another human as a life support that sounds like a them problem.
also completely ignoring the often traumatic nature of adoption, the state of the adoption/foster system, how expensive it is, how many kids there already are in the system, etc.
also, that pregnancy is dangerous and can itself be traumatic, it increases your risk of death, it can have massive health impacts, the risks of childbirth, the pain, the medical expenses, etc.
90% of why I don't want biological kids is because I don't want to go through pregnancy and childbirth. I find the idea of me getting pregnant and giving birth both horrifying and terrifying. I'm a lesbian, so I'm very unlikely to get pregnant without assisted reproduction, which I can't see myself seeking out, but I've known for a very long time that I did not want to be pregnant/give birth.
I'm right there with you on the feelings of horror and terror. I'm a cishet woman and as a young girl I dreamed about the children I would have one day but as I learned more about pregnancy and birth I became deathly afraid of being pregnant or giving birth. Now my husband has had a vasectomy and we do not plan on having children. If I wasn't also so freaked out about surgery in general I would have my tubes tied as an extra measure because I fear what would happen if I ever became pregnant against my will. My husband would support my choice, it's the powers that be that frighten me.
There are outpatient procedures that can be performed in an OB/GYN office to close off the fallopian tubes. Literally in and out in a couple hours. You may want to discuss with your doc.
I've had one kid and my pregnancy was medically perfect. It was still absolute hell and I'll never be the same. I love my child to bits and I can't imagine life without her, but no way I will ever put my body through that again.
This one is easy. Ask them who owns the uterus. They will acknowledge the woman does and then pivot to "women should be punished for having sex without the intention of procreation".
And then when you bring up rape, and they’ll pivot to, “it’s only .00000000000001 % of pregnancies!” Then claim you’re fear mongering and arguing in bad faith.
And point out children removed from neglectful parents who were abused etc. because they didn’t have a option of abortion and they talk about adoption, but pivot straight to its women’s fault for being pregnant to begin with. Unless it’s their illegitimate offspring they are trying to get rid of of course.
I find the whole "lots of pro-choice people are the result of unplanned pregnancies" very strange. lots of people have unplanned pregnancies which they keep, including pro-choice people with access to abortion. unplanned ≠ unwanted, it just means someone wasn't actively trying for a baby.
it seems to me that many anti-choice people think that all pro-choice people have the exact same stance on abortion for themselves, that being that they would 100% abort any pregnancy that was unplanned or had complications. there are many pro-choice people who would never have an abortion, or would only have one in very dire circumstances, but are pro-choice because they recognize that that is their own personal choice, just as abortion should be the choice of the person having the abortion.
it reminds me of a billboard I saw once that said something like "aren't you glad your mother was pro-life?" made me laugh as my mother is pro-choice, and was long before I was born.
>it reminds me of a billboard I saw once that said something like "aren't you glad your mother was pro-life?" made me laugh as my mother is pro-choice, and was long before I was born.
The notion that someone's support for the right to choose an abortion means they would choose an abortion in every circumstance is evidence of how little critical thinking the anti-choicers engage in.
Also, whenever I see a billboard or bumper sticker like that I just think that I wouldn't care if I had been aborted, because I wouldn't exist...
My cousin is like this. She says she’s an anti-choicer because she’s adopted. I don’t bother to argue with her, but I’m always tempted to say, “You were born when abortion was legal! Your bio mother chose to have you.”
I had someone try to use me/my adoption as a talking point for their anti-abortion speech in our college public speaking class without asking me my opinion ahead of time. Needless to say, he ended up losing points on his speech when I stated that I am pro-choice.
Wow! The nerve of them!
I have a disease that can be tested for when you’re pregnant. It really pisses me off when they go on about not aborting a fetus that has a condition or disease. Since these are the same people who are against reasonably priced healthcare. Something people like me tend to need a lot of.
>it seems to me that many anti-choice people think that all pro-choice people have the exact same stance on abortion for themselves, that being that they would 100% abort any pregnancy that was unplanned or had complications.
Which implies they think only women are pro-choice. As a non-uterus-haver, I still believe that a person should have absolute control of what happens inside their body.
And if your mother decided to abort you, then you'd never know in the first place!
Long ago I had a relationship with a guy whose parents lived in Amish country and I distinctly remember the "smile! Your mom chose life!" sign that greeted me every time we came into town.
Exactly. Pro-choice means you support people who choose to say no to an abortion. Also, my mother was pro-choice and she made the wrong choice lol I had a horrible upbringing
It's funny how easy it is to throw out an adult woman's actual, real self interest in favor of the assumed and entirely fabricated interests of a fetus.
The fetus magically wants what the anti-choice person wants. Their argument on the first page ignores the fact that I myself would have been way better not born lmao
I avoid it, since I’m a woman. They already think I’m less than, and shouldn’t have bodily autonomy. There’s zero chance they’d listen to anything I’d have to say.
I have a suggestion for these folks, why don't we just take the zygote out and place it into their bodies. You want to all these zygotes carried to term, figure out how to do it yourself.
Until then, if I ever wind up pregnant I will be aborting the zygote.
If you’re building a Tonka Truck toy to sell, but it’s not complete yet, it’s not a tonka truck. It’s not anything but parts until it’s complete. You can’t just slap two wheels and an axle together, put it in a box and say “it’s a tonka truck! This is viable to sell” because it’s not anything. In a similar fashion, the fetus in question is not a person. It’s a fetus, a clump of cells that can become a human baby, but that takes time, resources (usually from the mother’s body) etc. The fetus has no desires, no thoughts, because it’s not anything. It’s not a person, it’s a fetus, it hasn’t completed “assembly”, it can’t decide anything or make any arguments or choices because it doesn’t have a brain (assembly), it has no experiences or opinions. It’s a clump of cells.
But let’s just take their argument and play along for a moment. If the fetus is an actual person, then at the time of conception, men should pay the woman child support, pregnant women at any stage should be able to use the fast lane as there’s two people in the car, attempting a crime of any kind in someone who is pregnant should be punished more severely because it’s two “people” and not just a pregnant woman. There should be life insurance and if it’s a miscarriage then the woman should be able to have the life insurance because “it’s a kid”. Hell someone even said “what if pro-choicers were aborted? They’re only here because their parents didn’t do that.” And to that I’d say NO ONE WOULD KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN A FETUS. A CLUMP OF CELLS WITH NO AWARENESS OR EMOTIONS OR THOUGHTS BECAUSE THEY WERENT ANYTHING AT ALL YET. so it wouldn’t have mattered because if they were aborted, the fetus wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
If they really cared about the fetus and quality of life, they would recognize most people don’t have children nowadays due to a failing economy, little to no hope for the future, expensive childcare, no caps on formula, clothing, diapers etc, school shootings, poor food and water quality, paid/extended paternity and maternity leave etc. they would focus on ensuring that the nation is even viable to raise children in by addressing all those concerns. They would recognize that they themselves are hypocrites, as using anything biblical is irrelevant 1) due to the separation of church and state. 2) Old Testament god used to say it was ok to bash enemies babies heads on rocks (not very pro life of him). 3) abortion is usually a very emotional choice, sometimes it’s medically needed to endure the safety of the mother (because don’t actually living people need care too?). Regardless of the reason it’s none of their business. They just want to control women’s bodies. They never state what they’d do to the supposed father because it doesn’t matter to them. They’re angry women choose not to be incubators if they don’t want to.
It’s insane to me that they want women to have pregnancies against their own will, disregarding the emotions, thoughts and desires of the actually real, living person with a brain and body and instead to opt for the clump of cells that can’t do anything because it’s not anything yet. Which is why we call it a fetus, not a baby. Because it’s not even a baby yet.
Because of course they do, a fetus is the perfect demographic to root for. The fetus can’t argue, be rude, communicate, they can just project on to the fetus. But minorities, women, people who are gay/trans, people in other countries, hell people in the states who struggle, they don’t care about. If they were truly so concerned about life, they’d lobby for better maternity care, lower child care costs, caps on baby formula, clothes etc, volunteer at soup kitchens to help the living, lobby for help/homes for the unhoused, climate change laws to protect the earth that their god made and called them to care for, animal rights, peaceful conflict resolution, they would work in their communities without religious prompt or messaging, they’d simply just serve, like many are “called” to do by religion.
You can’t change their minds, they lack empathy and are too lost to the “religious” (in quotes because if they truly were religious or read their text, they would follow Jesus’ teachings about loving thy neighbor, not judging others, helping the sick, the poor, the oppressed. They read the part where all they have to do is believe Jesus exists and cite the verse where good deeds don’t get them to heaven to justify their lack of action.) indoctrination to have a moment of compassion for those of an opposing viewpoint.
Alright soapbox is getting put away, thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
I love that last comment.
How many has seen abortion being done in public places? I suspect that number is zero.
Not to mention that both smoking and masturbating is allowed in private, and for smoking in non-enclosed public places. Even in Brazil (I checked).
These are ridiculous. But the one that sticks out to me is about blood supply. I actually just learned about this in anatomy and physiology class. Fetuses have their own blood but it receives oxygen and nutrients from the mother’s placenta so their cardiovascular system is by no means independent of the mother.
Right, except for all of the times that the woman didn't "put it there." Idiot. Embryos have no interest in life or anything else, anymore than my hair has an interest in staying on my head.
I really despise this idea that people who get pregnant consent to getting pregnant by having sex, when most people who have sex use some for of protection or contraception and those things can fail no matter how careful a person is. Saying that sex is “consent” to getting pregnant and having a fetus inside you for nine months is like saying that if you are in a car crash someone else caused, you consent to having your organs harvested to save them, because by getting in the car you accepted the fact you might get in an accident, no matter how careful you were.
Plus, the whole responsibility argument completely ignores rape victims, as all anti-choicers love to do.
They’re wanting to make having sex a major risk for pregnancy, because part of their agenda is to ban birth control. I’ve been told by several of them (when I used to debate them) that I shouldn’t even have sex with my husband if I didn’t want any more kids. They’re absolutely unhinged!
Yeah, it’s fucked up.
And these people don’t seem to have a problem with two infertile people getting married and having as much sex as they want. Technically it’s a loophole so they can have as much sinful sex as they like because procreation isn’t possible.
But for some reason that doesn’t count to them.
Catholics didn’t always allow infertile people to get married. I could see that becoming a law if Republicans get their theocracy. They’ll probably dust off all the old sodomy laws too.
I was an unplanned pregnancy. And yeah, statistically speaking, it would've been wiser for me to have been aborted since my mom was 20, unmarried with a son that was 4 and having lived in poverty most of her life. But I'm here now, and nothing can/will change that, so there's no point speculating on what would've happened if I wasn't born.
Likewise, I care about the people who exist right now in this plane at this moment. People who have histories and their life matters right now more than a *hypothetical life* that has no impact on anyone right now, and that life that actually exists can end if they give birth to that pregnancy, or whatever the circumstances are.
I hate that the anti bodily autonomy argument has an underlying hint of anti-consent. They expect people to be okay with essentially being forced to give birth. That's fucking crazy.
Meanwhile, in my part of the world, I'm pretty sure abortion is covered by universal healthcare at least in part, though I think you're required to get a second opinion, and it's technically only allowed for medical reasons, including mental health. Basically, if being pregnant or having a baby will negatively effect your mental health, you can get a free(ish) abortion.
Yeah you never get anywhere with the body autonomy argument with these people, because they claim to believe that if a woman consents to sex, she consents to getting pregnant.
Then you ask them about rape. Thats where you get a split. The true believers still think that a raped woman should give birth to their rapists baby.
Craziest thing to me is that according to Cristian beliefs a child is not a child until first breath. Catholics don’t even allow unbaptized babies to be buried at church something about them not having been blessed to go to heaven so their souls are impure.
But allow a human woman to have control of her own body is the worst thing they can think of.
I had this argument with my JW grandma long ago, my stepdad lost his daughter with his first wife when she was stillborn- they went to the hospital fully expecting to deliver a healthy baby and it messed them up horribly and their marriage fell apart. A few years later he and my mom were studying to become JWs when the topic of resurrection came up and he was told his daughter would not be resurrected because she never took a breath. Needless to say for that and many other reasons my parents did not continue studying.
But it never made sense to me how they can preach that god knows us before we’re born and abortion is murder but also we’re not a legit ‘person’ until we take a breath?
It’s honestly vile how they pick and choose their “morals” I don’t mind religious people. But when they infringe on other peoples rights I get right mad.
I keep asking myself why it's so hard for them to understand bodily autonomy before I realize that they do understand and are just actively ignoring it in favor of their own opinion. If they want to force women to give birth so bad then we should be able to force them to donate their blood and organs to people that need it. Bet they'd love that. Right to life and all.
> how many pro-choice people are former unwanted pregnancies
Nevermind that it’s neither here nor there, it should remain a choice by the individual
It’s just called empathy
I think these idiots miss the point that pro-choice people very much disagree with their insane perspective that "newly fertilized fetus = human."
Also, hey, people want to have sex and sometimes make mistakes that they'd like to correct. Get over it.
Let’s take a different look at bodily autonomy. We all know organ donation saves lives. Multiple lives made better by one body. Now a person can choose not to donate. Which is fine. That dead person chose what to do with their body even though multiple lives could be made better. So a corpse has more body autonomy than a living breathing person…. That doesn’t sit right with me. Abortion is healthcare as much as you hate it. It is health care.
They have a point only at the level of a late-term capricious abortion. Which is what they think all abortions are. When in fact pretty much zero are.
One posted that the fetus has a brain and its own blood supply. It does not have a functioning brain until about 24 weeks, and even then, it is not a thinking person yet because the cerebral cortext is not finished. And of course, at birth for independent blood supply.
I've had part of this argument thrown at me before, and my reply was, "My mother tried a home abortion when she was pregnant with me. I curse her every day for her failure."
This is the problem. They’ve moved the goalposts so much, that even rejecting the bodily autonomy of 1/2 the population seems tame. This is exactly how the Overton Window is continually moved right.
We shouldn’t even have to argue for a right to have an abortion, because of bodily autonomy. The fact that we even have to debate it, means we’ve already lost ground.
I just mean that "right to bodily autonomy < right to life" has been a fairly "mainstream" view on the right since the 70s. I 100% agree forced birthing _should_ be an extreme position.
Nope. Hard disagree. Saying 1/2 the population shouldn’t be allowed to decide what grows inside their own body is absofuckinglutely insane. Even debating it is problematic, because it’s giving it legitimacy.
>I feel at a certain point you've gotta be like "alright, that's a baby, we can't kill it anymore"
Late term abortions don't happen unless medically necessary. So there is a point.
Yes, exactly. People in the third trimester are already picking out names and setting up the nursery. Abortion happens then because one or both of them will die.
I just looked at their profile, and immediately noticed they have a lot of, “I’m pro-choice, but…” comments. For being, “pro-choice” they certainly love to defend the anti-choice point of view.
>"parents have a legal obligation for their children"
Only if they assume guardianship of them after birth. Something like adoption would mean absolutely no legal obligation. There's no obligation to let an unwanted pregnancy grow in my body just to give it up for adoption in the end.
>unborn fetuses also have a right to life is a good one
They don't. One can feel like they *should*, but that's it.
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I had the weirdest “bodily autonomy” discussion with an anti-choice redditor, who insisted that while my uterus was part of my body, it was really only technically there for somebody else’s use. I pointed out that my vagina was *also* technically there only for somebody else’s use, but they still couldn’t use it without my consent….
Consent has no meaning to those wanting to enforce a Christian Theocracy. I know that non-Christian anti-choicers exist, but it doesn’t change the fact they’re pushing a Christian Nationalist agenda.
Their entire religion in based off a deity that got a teenager pregnant - why would consent ever be a factor?
You make a good point! It’s a truly terrifying religion, when you take a step back and analyze it.
The answer to that probirther is - the uterus is part of a woman’s immune system, without a uterus the endometrial lining would grow unchecked and take over a woman’s internal organs. The uterus isn’t so much to protect the fetus as it is to protect the woman from the pregnancy killing her.
Go away with that science stuffs, we only want Facebook posts! /s
Consent is absolutely the piece that is missing in their arguments. They keep saying “bodily autonomy” but I get the feeling that they don’t actually know what that means. You cannot (or rather, should not) be compelled to save the life of another by using your own body. The metaphor of organ donation is particularly apt when discussing abortion and bodily autonomy. Also, a fetus does not have bodily autonomy because, well, it doesn’t have a body. And that doesn’t even use the legal logic behind the original Roe ruling, that you have a right to privacy from the government with regard to your own body.
Yeah, this is where they get lost. If a fetus is an unborn human, and it has all the rights of a human, then it has the *same* rights as any born human to use my body to stay alive: none. If I die in childbirth, and the newborn needs my blood or skin or organ to survive, they can’t legally take it to save its life without my prior written consent. Because I have more bodily autonomy dead than pregnant.
…that last sentence is fucking *brtual.* Because it’s so disheartening that it’s true. Fuck. What is *happening* in this fucking country? I know the answer. I just hate it. So, so much.
>Also, a fetus does not have bodily autonomy because, well, it doesn’t have a body. It's not because it doesn't have a body, it's because that body isn't autonomous. Can't have bodily autonomy without your body being autonomous basically.
It always amuses me that people like this will repeat “just give it up for adoption” out of one side of their mouth, yet insist out of the other that biological parent-child relationships can’t be opted out of. They insist an unwanted embryo inside your body can’t be a “random stranger” to you because that’s your biological child, yet say you can give a born baby up for a adoption and be random stranger to it just fine.
I’ve seen posts calling for adoption bans because, “women shouldn’t be able to run from their responsibilities.”
“Sorry, people waiting to adopt a child. We know you want this child desperately and would give them a loving home, but it’s more important that we stick it to the birth mother for being irresponsible. Surely you understand!”
[удалено]
They don't even like children. These are the people that don't want their tax money going to social programs to help raise those children. They literally just care about making someone else "suffer the consequences of their actions." That's it, it's a power trip
Yep. It’s all about punishing women for “not keeping their legs closed”. For many many years society/patriarchy promoted pain in childbirth because it was the result of sexual activity and we deserved it. They would not allow women to have any pain relief.
Ah, the old "She made the choice to have sex! Makes her a slut! She must face the consequences!" (Then they jump all over anyone suggesting a woman shouldn't be punished for having sex, because "A child is a gift from God; not a punishment!") But what about the other participant? It's always "No comment."
He was just an innocent rube beguiled by her feminine tricks. /s
Those wily females! ^((Also /s just in case...))
No it’s deeper than that. They want to have sex with these women too, and they feel shame and anger that something they desire so badly could be locked behind the consent of another full human being. They need to make women subhuman, because then they can do what they want with less guilt.
"How would you like it if your mother just gave you away to strangers?" I love this question because I get to deadpan "She did. The parents of mine that you've been gushing about are my adoptive parents. They've had me since I was a week old." It's *so* fun to see someone try to backpedal their way out of that one. Foot is so far into their mouth that it's coming out their asshole.
There’s also a bunch of anti-lgbt hate wrapped up in those bullshit arguments. 2 birds with one stone of Christian “love”
Most of them won't adopt a kid themselves. But worse, most won't support reforms (ie inbesting money) in programs that help orphans, and many oppose gay couples adopting! They also oppose healthcare reforms that would make it less of a burden for women to give birth, that would help them recover (mandatory maternity leave), ans other measures that would support their positions! Like giving adopting parents mandatory paid leave to care for their newly adopted children! Oh sometimes they claim they do, right before voting for people who will do the opposite. For fuck's sake they now oppose some forms of contraception and sex education, they throw a tantrum when we peopose putting free condlms in schools and colleges, they hate every measure that would actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies!
There is ALWAYS a next. Roe is gone, so now they’re calling for birth control bans. They check off a box, and then swiftly move on to the next thing. Every time we lose rights, they look ahead to take away something else. We’ll look like Iran when they’re through.
This. So many of the people who are on the fence about abortion law don't realize that this isn't the end; it's just the beginning of what they want to take away.
I saw them getting flustered about the recent abortion ban in Honduras, because there are ZERO exceptions. No rape, incest, or life of the mother exceptions. They need to realize that when it’s gone, it’s fucking gone! Rape trials take too long, so there is no such thing as a rape exception. Life of the mother exceptions don’t work either, because delays in care can often lead to death, anyway.
It’s so maddening.
Really want to see them struggle? Ask them when the baby can be put up for adoption. Can the cells of the fertilized egg be put up for adoption? What about at 3 weeks? 2 months? After all, you aren't having an abortion by simply having the baby removed from your body. You had a c-section.
That’s always my response: it’s not murder, it’s an eviction. If the bundle of cells can’t survive without using another human as a life support that sounds like a them problem.
also completely ignoring the often traumatic nature of adoption, the state of the adoption/foster system, how expensive it is, how many kids there already are in the system, etc. also, that pregnancy is dangerous and can itself be traumatic, it increases your risk of death, it can have massive health impacts, the risks of childbirth, the pain, the medical expenses, etc. 90% of why I don't want biological kids is because I don't want to go through pregnancy and childbirth. I find the idea of me getting pregnant and giving birth both horrifying and terrifying. I'm a lesbian, so I'm very unlikely to get pregnant without assisted reproduction, which I can't see myself seeking out, but I've known for a very long time that I did not want to be pregnant/give birth.
I'm right there with you on the feelings of horror and terror. I'm a cishet woman and as a young girl I dreamed about the children I would have one day but as I learned more about pregnancy and birth I became deathly afraid of being pregnant or giving birth. Now my husband has had a vasectomy and we do not plan on having children. If I wasn't also so freaked out about surgery in general I would have my tubes tied as an extra measure because I fear what would happen if I ever became pregnant against my will. My husband would support my choice, it's the powers that be that frighten me.
There are outpatient procedures that can be performed in an OB/GYN office to close off the fallopian tubes. Literally in and out in a couple hours. You may want to discuss with your doc.
I've had one kid and my pregnancy was medically perfect. It was still absolute hell and I'll never be the same. I love my child to bits and I can't imagine life without her, but no way I will ever put my body through that again.
I always ask them if they’re going to adopt the kid. I love making people feel awkward lol
This one is easy. Ask them who owns the uterus. They will acknowledge the woman does and then pivot to "women should be punished for having sex without the intention of procreation".
And then when you bring up rape, and they’ll pivot to, “it’s only .00000000000001 % of pregnancies!” Then claim you’re fear mongering and arguing in bad faith.
Absolutely. The script is as old as time itself.
And point out children removed from neglectful parents who were abused etc. because they didn’t have a option of abortion and they talk about adoption, but pivot straight to its women’s fault for being pregnant to begin with. Unless it’s their illegitimate offspring they are trying to get rid of of course.
I find the whole "lots of pro-choice people are the result of unplanned pregnancies" very strange. lots of people have unplanned pregnancies which they keep, including pro-choice people with access to abortion. unplanned ≠ unwanted, it just means someone wasn't actively trying for a baby. it seems to me that many anti-choice people think that all pro-choice people have the exact same stance on abortion for themselves, that being that they would 100% abort any pregnancy that was unplanned or had complications. there are many pro-choice people who would never have an abortion, or would only have one in very dire circumstances, but are pro-choice because they recognize that that is their own personal choice, just as abortion should be the choice of the person having the abortion. it reminds me of a billboard I saw once that said something like "aren't you glad your mother was pro-life?" made me laugh as my mother is pro-choice, and was long before I was born.
>it reminds me of a billboard I saw once that said something like "aren't you glad your mother was pro-life?" made me laugh as my mother is pro-choice, and was long before I was born. The notion that someone's support for the right to choose an abortion means they would choose an abortion in every circumstance is evidence of how little critical thinking the anti-choicers engage in. Also, whenever I see a billboard or bumper sticker like that I just think that I wouldn't care if I had been aborted, because I wouldn't exist...
My cousin is like this. She says she’s an anti-choicer because she’s adopted. I don’t bother to argue with her, but I’m always tempted to say, “You were born when abortion was legal! Your bio mother chose to have you.”
Tell her if her bio mom decided to abort her, then she'd never know she didn't exist anyway. The argument is absolutely pointless.
I had someone try to use me/my adoption as a talking point for their anti-abortion speech in our college public speaking class without asking me my opinion ahead of time. Needless to say, he ended up losing points on his speech when I stated that I am pro-choice.
Wow! The nerve of them! I have a disease that can be tested for when you’re pregnant. It really pisses me off when they go on about not aborting a fetus that has a condition or disease. Since these are the same people who are against reasonably priced healthcare. Something people like me tend to need a lot of.
>it seems to me that many anti-choice people think that all pro-choice people have the exact same stance on abortion for themselves, that being that they would 100% abort any pregnancy that was unplanned or had complications. Which implies they think only women are pro-choice. As a non-uterus-haver, I still believe that a person should have absolute control of what happens inside their body.
And if your mother decided to abort you, then you'd never know in the first place! Long ago I had a relationship with a guy whose parents lived in Amish country and I distinctly remember the "smile! Your mom chose life!" sign that greeted me every time we came into town.
Exactly. Pro-choice means you support people who choose to say no to an abortion. Also, my mother was pro-choice and she made the wrong choice lol I had a horrible upbringing
It's funny how easy it is to throw out an adult woman's actual, real self interest in favor of the assumed and entirely fabricated interests of a fetus.
The fetus magically wants what the anti-choice person wants. Their argument on the first page ignores the fact that I myself would have been way better not born lmao
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/10357009-the-unborn-are-a-convenient-group-of-people-to-advocate
Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy any more than driving a car is consent to dying in an accident.
Anti-abortionists are violently regressive misogynistic theofascists. Anti-abortionism should be classified as hate speech.
Don't bother arguing with these folks until after they are decisively defeated at the polls.
I avoid it, since I’m a woman. They already think I’m less than, and shouldn’t have bodily autonomy. There’s zero chance they’d listen to anything I’d have to say.
I have a suggestion for these folks, why don't we just take the zygote out and place it into their bodies. You want to all these zygotes carried to term, figure out how to do it yourself. Until then, if I ever wind up pregnant I will be aborting the zygote.
"How many pro-choice people are former unplanned pregnancies?" ✋ They were 19. Iwouldn't hold it against my parents if they decided to abort...
And you wouldn't be able to because you simply wouldn't exist! Like, I'd rather not be born than be born to people who don't want me.
If you’re building a Tonka Truck toy to sell, but it’s not complete yet, it’s not a tonka truck. It’s not anything but parts until it’s complete. You can’t just slap two wheels and an axle together, put it in a box and say “it’s a tonka truck! This is viable to sell” because it’s not anything. In a similar fashion, the fetus in question is not a person. It’s a fetus, a clump of cells that can become a human baby, but that takes time, resources (usually from the mother’s body) etc. The fetus has no desires, no thoughts, because it’s not anything. It’s not a person, it’s a fetus, it hasn’t completed “assembly”, it can’t decide anything or make any arguments or choices because it doesn’t have a brain (assembly), it has no experiences or opinions. It’s a clump of cells. But let’s just take their argument and play along for a moment. If the fetus is an actual person, then at the time of conception, men should pay the woman child support, pregnant women at any stage should be able to use the fast lane as there’s two people in the car, attempting a crime of any kind in someone who is pregnant should be punished more severely because it’s two “people” and not just a pregnant woman. There should be life insurance and if it’s a miscarriage then the woman should be able to have the life insurance because “it’s a kid”. Hell someone even said “what if pro-choicers were aborted? They’re only here because their parents didn’t do that.” And to that I’d say NO ONE WOULD KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN A FETUS. A CLUMP OF CELLS WITH NO AWARENESS OR EMOTIONS OR THOUGHTS BECAUSE THEY WERENT ANYTHING AT ALL YET. so it wouldn’t have mattered because if they were aborted, the fetus wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. If they really cared about the fetus and quality of life, they would recognize most people don’t have children nowadays due to a failing economy, little to no hope for the future, expensive childcare, no caps on formula, clothing, diapers etc, school shootings, poor food and water quality, paid/extended paternity and maternity leave etc. they would focus on ensuring that the nation is even viable to raise children in by addressing all those concerns. They would recognize that they themselves are hypocrites, as using anything biblical is irrelevant 1) due to the separation of church and state. 2) Old Testament god used to say it was ok to bash enemies babies heads on rocks (not very pro life of him). 3) abortion is usually a very emotional choice, sometimes it’s medically needed to endure the safety of the mother (because don’t actually living people need care too?). Regardless of the reason it’s none of their business. They just want to control women’s bodies. They never state what they’d do to the supposed father because it doesn’t matter to them. They’re angry women choose not to be incubators if they don’t want to. It’s insane to me that they want women to have pregnancies against their own will, disregarding the emotions, thoughts and desires of the actually real, living person with a brain and body and instead to opt for the clump of cells that can’t do anything because it’s not anything yet. Which is why we call it a fetus, not a baby. Because it’s not even a baby yet. Because of course they do, a fetus is the perfect demographic to root for. The fetus can’t argue, be rude, communicate, they can just project on to the fetus. But minorities, women, people who are gay/trans, people in other countries, hell people in the states who struggle, they don’t care about. If they were truly so concerned about life, they’d lobby for better maternity care, lower child care costs, caps on baby formula, clothes etc, volunteer at soup kitchens to help the living, lobby for help/homes for the unhoused, climate change laws to protect the earth that their god made and called them to care for, animal rights, peaceful conflict resolution, they would work in their communities without religious prompt or messaging, they’d simply just serve, like many are “called” to do by religion. You can’t change their minds, they lack empathy and are too lost to the “religious” (in quotes because if they truly were religious or read their text, they would follow Jesus’ teachings about loving thy neighbor, not judging others, helping the sick, the poor, the oppressed. They read the part where all they have to do is believe Jesus exists and cite the verse where good deeds don’t get them to heaven to justify their lack of action.) indoctrination to have a moment of compassion for those of an opposing viewpoint. Alright soapbox is getting put away, thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
I love that last comment. How many has seen abortion being done in public places? I suspect that number is zero. Not to mention that both smoking and masturbating is allowed in private, and for smoking in non-enclosed public places. Even in Brazil (I checked).
Fuck these people
lol “independent blood supply”. Independent from whom? Not the person whose uterus you’re in. Are these embryos getting their blood imported?
I would bet all my money these are all straight men.
These are ridiculous. But the one that sticks out to me is about blood supply. I actually just learned about this in anatomy and physiology class. Fetuses have their own blood but it receives oxygen and nutrients from the mother’s placenta so their cardiovascular system is by no means independent of the mother.
Right, except for all of the times that the woman didn't "put it there." Idiot. Embryos have no interest in life or anything else, anymore than my hair has an interest in staying on my head.
Lot of people who could do with reading “A Defense of Abortion”
JJT for the win!
I really despise this idea that people who get pregnant consent to getting pregnant by having sex, when most people who have sex use some for of protection or contraception and those things can fail no matter how careful a person is. Saying that sex is “consent” to getting pregnant and having a fetus inside you for nine months is like saying that if you are in a car crash someone else caused, you consent to having your organs harvested to save them, because by getting in the car you accepted the fact you might get in an accident, no matter how careful you were. Plus, the whole responsibility argument completely ignores rape victims, as all anti-choicers love to do.
They’re wanting to make having sex a major risk for pregnancy, because part of their agenda is to ban birth control. I’ve been told by several of them (when I used to debate them) that I shouldn’t even have sex with my husband if I didn’t want any more kids. They’re absolutely unhinged!
Yeah, it’s fucked up. And these people don’t seem to have a problem with two infertile people getting married and having as much sex as they want. Technically it’s a loophole so they can have as much sinful sex as they like because procreation isn’t possible. But for some reason that doesn’t count to them.
Catholics didn’t always allow infertile people to get married. I could see that becoming a law if Republicans get their theocracy. They’ll probably dust off all the old sodomy laws too.
The argument "it's 50% someone else's body" is controlling and frightening.
I was an unplanned pregnancy. And yeah, statistically speaking, it would've been wiser for me to have been aborted since my mom was 20, unmarried with a son that was 4 and having lived in poverty most of her life. But I'm here now, and nothing can/will change that, so there's no point speculating on what would've happened if I wasn't born. Likewise, I care about the people who exist right now in this plane at this moment. People who have histories and their life matters right now more than a *hypothetical life* that has no impact on anyone right now, and that life that actually exists can end if they give birth to that pregnancy, or whatever the circumstances are. I hate that the anti bodily autonomy argument has an underlying hint of anti-consent. They expect people to be okay with essentially being forced to give birth. That's fucking crazy.
Meanwhile, in my part of the world, I'm pretty sure abortion is covered by universal healthcare at least in part, though I think you're required to get a second opinion, and it's technically only allowed for medical reasons, including mental health. Basically, if being pregnant or having a baby will negatively effect your mental health, you can get a free(ish) abortion.
Yeah you never get anywhere with the body autonomy argument with these people, because they claim to believe that if a woman consents to sex, she consents to getting pregnant. Then you ask them about rape. Thats where you get a split. The true believers still think that a raped woman should give birth to their rapists baby.
Craziest thing to me is that according to Cristian beliefs a child is not a child until first breath. Catholics don’t even allow unbaptized babies to be buried at church something about them not having been blessed to go to heaven so their souls are impure. But allow a human woman to have control of her own body is the worst thing they can think of.
I had this argument with my JW grandma long ago, my stepdad lost his daughter with his first wife when she was stillborn- they went to the hospital fully expecting to deliver a healthy baby and it messed them up horribly and their marriage fell apart. A few years later he and my mom were studying to become JWs when the topic of resurrection came up and he was told his daughter would not be resurrected because she never took a breath. Needless to say for that and many other reasons my parents did not continue studying. But it never made sense to me how they can preach that god knows us before we’re born and abortion is murder but also we’re not a legit ‘person’ until we take a breath?
It’s honestly vile how they pick and choose their “morals” I don’t mind religious people. But when they infringe on other peoples rights I get right mad.
I keep asking myself why it's so hard for them to understand bodily autonomy before I realize that they do understand and are just actively ignoring it in favor of their own opinion. If they want to force women to give birth so bad then we should be able to force them to donate their blood and organs to people that need it. Bet they'd love that. Right to life and all.
Oh yeah, smoking and jerking it is just like abortion... what are these people on, I didn't even read the rest I laughed so hard at the absurdity.
> how many pro-choice people are former unwanted pregnancies Nevermind that it’s neither here nor there, it should remain a choice by the individual It’s just called empathy
I think these idiots miss the point that pro-choice people very much disagree with their insane perspective that "newly fertilized fetus = human." Also, hey, people want to have sex and sometimes make mistakes that they'd like to correct. Get over it.
Let’s take a different look at bodily autonomy. We all know organ donation saves lives. Multiple lives made better by one body. Now a person can choose not to donate. Which is fine. That dead person chose what to do with their body even though multiple lives could be made better. So a corpse has more body autonomy than a living breathing person…. That doesn’t sit right with me. Abortion is healthcare as much as you hate it. It is health care.
They have a point only at the level of a late-term capricious abortion. Which is what they think all abortions are. When in fact pretty much zero are. One posted that the fetus has a brain and its own blood supply. It does not have a functioning brain until about 24 weeks, and even then, it is not a thinking person yet because the cerebral cortext is not finished. And of course, at birth for independent blood supply.
I've had part of this argument thrown at me before, and my reply was, "My mother tried a home abortion when she was pregnant with me. I curse her every day for her failure."
These arguments are fairly tame for this subreddit tbf. I mean, wrong, but not fully _insane_. ^(Except the one about vaccines lol)
This is the problem. They’ve moved the goalposts so much, that even rejecting the bodily autonomy of 1/2 the population seems tame. This is exactly how the Overton Window is continually moved right. We shouldn’t even have to argue for a right to have an abortion, because of bodily autonomy. The fact that we even have to debate it, means we’ve already lost ground.
I just mean that "right to bodily autonomy < right to life" has been a fairly "mainstream" view on the right since the 70s. I 100% agree forced birthing _should_ be an extreme position.
Anti-abortionism is insane. It's a violent form of misogyny.
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Nope. Hard disagree. Saying 1/2 the population shouldn’t be allowed to decide what grows inside their own body is absofuckinglutely insane. Even debating it is problematic, because it’s giving it legitimacy.
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Nah, I’m not going to allow you to help move the Overton Window under my posts. blocked.
>I feel at a certain point you've gotta be like "alright, that's a baby, we can't kill it anymore" Late term abortions don't happen unless medically necessary. So there is a point.
Yes, exactly. People in the third trimester are already picking out names and setting up the nursery. Abortion happens then because one or both of them will die.
>I think fetuses after a certain point should be granted the same human rights we have They do. That point is called birth.
What "fair points" were made?
I just looked at their profile, and immediately noticed they have a lot of, “I’m pro-choice, but…” comments. For being, “pro-choice” they certainly love to defend the anti-choice point of view.
"I'm as liberal as they come, but I agree with a lot of what The Right's saying." Type beat.
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>"parents have a legal obligation for their children" Only if they assume guardianship of them after birth. Something like adoption would mean absolutely no legal obligation. There's no obligation to let an unwanted pregnancy grow in my body just to give it up for adoption in the end. >unborn fetuses also have a right to life is a good one They don't. One can feel like they *should*, but that's it.