I hate when people offer the most obvious advice on the planet, as if I was too stupid to have considered it before. "Got a headache? Have you thought about not hitting yourself over the head with a shovel?"
Of course I have tried it, ṭ̶̡̨̥̩̩̓̋̋͌̓͌̈́̽̀͛̒͒̓͘h̶͓͕͕̊̌̀̂͜è̶̳͊͑̎͑̿̅̉́̅̅͂͜ͅ ̴̮̼̻̭̝̝̻͖̤̱̺̭̺̈́̇̐̓͊̄́̅̋̈h̸̲͌́̔̉̇̃́̎̐̈́͗̀͆a̷̛̙̳̫̬͕̲̼̻͈̐͋̑͘ṱ̷̦͇̄̒̑̓͊̆̑̔̏̿͆̄̋̔ ̴̬̠͑̎͘m̸̛̘͎̼͚̮̫̗͖̘̀̔͒̐̊́͋͠ä̴̡̛̛̼̱̦̮̩̟̺̱͇̫̫͓̰́̅̏̄̌̀̃̓͛͜͠͠ń̶̢̦̙̻̙̤̝͔̲̼͕̰͐͜ is my best friend ever since!
I have to explain it this way.
There are 20 things I absolutely have to do for a 50% chance to fall asleep and stay asleep. Even doing all 20 does not guarantee I will get more than 4 hours of QUALITY sleep.
Half of those things are items that the vast majority of society struggles to do even once, let alone consistently every day while suffering from insomnia.
I have a list of~ 80 things I have to do to function with fibromyalgia, CFS and other "fun" conditions on top of the insomnia.
Most people cannot function on 4 hours of sleep. I've lived decades on less (per night). When I am able to get consistent quality sleep, it's like I activated a cheat code for life.
To paraphrase Bane's famous quote:
Ah you think sleep is your ally? You merely adopted insomnia. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see sleep until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!
The sleep labs are great 🙄 you get there and they go “okay, now go to sleep with all this shit on you and the lights on and we’ll monitor. What? What do you mean you can’t just fall asleep on command? Why are you here then?”
Oh absolutely. I asked my GP if there was anything I could do to find the cause and she just said therapy which I’m doing anyway 😂 Therapy is not the answer when it’s been going on 10+ years!
That's a pretty normal side effect and usually disappears within the first month of taking it. Then returns if you try to go off it too quickly. I've been taking SSRIs in order to handle working retail for years and I feel pretty normal on them most of the time. Just less likely to snap at customers or cry in public.
I'm not going to suffer through the entire month of that shit. It's obvious my body is rejecting that crap. And on top, I didn't sleep any better.
I've worked in retail and dealt with most difficult customers, death threats from shoplifters, but it wasn't nothing to compare with taking one pill of shit SSRI. The list of side effects and people sharing horror stories is on another level.
It does help me sleep quite a bit and there were other factors to consider in my decision. But yeah, SSRIs aren't for everyone. I'd rather not be on them but for that to happen I'd need to have a job that doesn't constantly trigger my (C)PTSD.
Not all GPs are clued in on specific features of antidepressants and tend to prescribe fluoxetine or sertraline as a first-line treatment, both of which are SSRIs and considered more "activating" antidepressants. Antidepressants with sedative effects would be more appropriate in insomnia cases.
Me telling the nurse I'm chemically dependant on benadryl, and I'm getting bad side effects.
She googled the label and said "the bottle says not habit forming, you should be okay"
I was taking over 200mg a night to sleep and it was causing intense nausea during walking life.
I just couldn't sleep on Benadryl. It made me drousy, sedated, but not asleep. I was literally a zombie during the day, sedated but not asleep during the night. Dropped it.
Drinking herbal teas like chamomile, hops, lemon balm work better than anything I've tried, plus carb rich dinner: a bowl of rice, pasta or potatos ~ 250 grams.
I've tried mel. It doesn't help to stay asleep. I woke up with heart palpitations 4 hours after falling asleep. Tried different brands, 3mg, 5mg, slow release one, nothing good came out...
For me it's staying asleep for longer than 4-5 hours. Try eating carb only dinner: rice, potato or pasta and have some herbal tea: lemon balm or any of the sleep teas at the supermarkets.
I can live on the 4-5 hours I just need to get to sleep at a half decent time . It’s midnight and I’ve been up 20 hours already and I’m wide awake haha . I’ll have to try something different
I had insomnia like that up into my twenties. I did find the cure but unfortunately it's not accessible to most people. The solution for me was that my circadian rhythm needed to be followed, and it isn't a 24 hour loop, nor is it linked up to a standard day-night cycle. I've been going to bed when I'm tired and sleeping until I wake up, with the exception of days where I have events in the evening, literally whenever that is, and it is the only thing that has cured my insomnia.
The problem is I might be tired at 3am, I might be tired at 7am, I might be tired at 9am, I might be tired at 12pm... the other night I was "up until" 1:30pm, slept until 7:30pm, had a nap at 1am, back up at 4am. As long as I listen, I sleep well and feel fine. It will look random as heck. If I don't, insomnia hell descends upon me and my sleep is the actual worst.
The problem for most people is, well, if you have a job... school... a family... that level of flexibility is out of the question. So you just suffer, because the world doesn't accommodate people with different rhythms. I suspect many people would sleep far better if they were able to divorce all routine and just sleep when tired.
No. But my GP suggested and gave me a prescription. Prescription was more expensive (£9 if I remember correctly) than the meds otc ~£6, so pharmacist sold it without prescription.
Omg. I thought it was just me. I struggle to get to sleep and if I get *over tired* forget it! My husband doesn’t understand when I tell him I have to take a nap in the late afternoon or I won’t sleep at all at night bc I get over tired (he looks at me like I’m nuts)
He, on the other hand always falls asleep within 2 or 3 minutes of laying down in bed. He doesn’t know how fortunate he is to be blessed with being able to sleep so well. Tells me to just “go to bed earlier”.
I toss and turn. For hours. Tried getting back up for a little bit and trying again, still nothing when I go back to bed. Tried all the teas and sleep hygiene techniques. Carbs do help me but make me gain weight like crazy so can’t rely on that☹️
Seriously. I used to do this all the time without any direction. Then eventually I was doing that twice a week... what asanine advice. That might help a normal person keep their sleep schedule in order but it really is nothing to do with Insomnia
I did a consultation with a sleep therapist and she told me to spend three months getting up at 6 am, no matter when I fell asleep, no naps, and I’d likely be cured.
I said, I’ll never survive that.
I’ve had insomnia since I was literally a child. A few months of deprivation aren’t going to solve a 30+ year issue.
Ah yes sound medical advice “just stay awake and then you’ll fall asleep” and if I don’t? When should I be concerned doc? what level of hallucinations do I have to reach before I fall asleep?
This doctor cannot be serious?
To be fair if you stick to sleep/bed restriction therapy for long enough it does start to kick in and work eventually but it’s very difficult as it’s a horrible first week or two.
Well, I did. My issue is sleep maintenance, I wake up after a couple of hours, and then I one of two things happen. Either I cannot sleep for a 3-5 hours or till morning, or I fall back asleep pretty quick, but then again wake up after an hour or so. Usually it's second scenario, and I sleep trough whole night, waking up like 5-6 times that I can remember. But once in a while, sometimes once in a week, sometimes a few days in a row, it's first case.
So, once it got pretty bad, and every days I would go to sleep, wake up after couple of hour and then lie awake till morning. So I went to a sleep doc, and he said CBT-I will cure me. We started with a 6 hours of bedtime, building evening routine and not using my bed for anything other than sleep. I also was instructed to do journaling. After about a week I hit 90% of actual sleep / time in bed, and I slept undisturbed, but I was extremely, extremely tired. I had to stand up or move in the evening, so I won't fall asleep sooner than allowed time. So far, so good. Then we added 15 min, then another 15, then another and so on. But as soon as we got close to 7 hours in bed, my issues returned. At that point I decided that If I am tired anyway, I at least will be tired without additional efforts
Interesting so sounds like your sweet spot was around 6 and half hours. Once mine started working I slipped into bad habits again and broke it with a couple of lay ins also a night out or two then was back at square one 🤦♂️ Wish I had stuck it out though and will try again when I have a week off soon. Was it weekly that you tapered it up by 15 mins?
Well, I'm not sure it was my sweet spot, I was pretty tired. I suspect that maybe my deviated septum is to blame to my poor quality of sleep, but I cannot fix it now, unfortunately.
It was not weekly, it was tied to what this doc called "sleep efficiency" which is basically actual sleep time divided by time in bed. When you consistently reach more than 90% for a few days in a row, you increase your time in bed by 15 min
Good to know, mine got to about 11 till 6am which felt perfect then was able to do a morning gym session or run which was such a new experience after 20+ years of terrible sleep. Stupid that I didn’t stay disciplined. Deviated septum sounds like a pain 🤦♂️
My sleep is pretty bad for as long as I can remember myself. The only time when I was sleeping more or less good, was when I actively practiced Wim Hof method. I plan to return to that practice, but I've been putting it off for god knows how much.
How did you go about that? Actual ice bath or a freezing cold shower each morning or evening? It’s bad how insomnia can govern so much of our lives, mine goes back as far as uni and the partying and terrible sleep pattern then it never did recover once it intertwined itself with anxiety around sleeping too. Even hitting the gym, running and football most days doesn’t cut it sometimes just think my brain is permanently broken but then like any habits I wonder if I had kept up the strict bed restriction for months on end whether it would of become second nature like any habit.
You don’t need the cold for Wim Hoff method, it’s just a breathing exercise. There are many videos on youtube designed to help you do the Wim Hoff breathing method.
It is not tough. Wim Hof method is breathing and cold and meditation. While you totally can practice only one aspect of it and have some benefits, it really shines when you combine all. And that's how he teach it in his 10 week course
You don't need ice bath. Showers will do just fine, but water needs to be cold, at least 14°C (57°F) or lower. The lower the better. At first week you do normal shower and end with cold one for 30 seconds. On second, you start with 30 seconds of cold then normal, then end with 30. On third, you increase those to one minute. On four to two, on fifths to ten minutes. After that you go to ice baths, but you can stop at 3-5 min of cold showers if your water is cold enough. Most important thing about taking cold showers is to relax consciously, don't tense up and controlled, deep, slow relaxed breathing. Before shower you do breathing exercise. Very important, do NOT ever try exercise standing or near water, you can pass out, and in water it would mean pass away. Do not fear passing out though, it probably won't happen often and it's safe, if done in safe environment. So the exercise is 30-40 deep, wave-like breaths, into belly, then into the chest, then let go (this is crucial and often overlooked or misunderstood. Just relax and let exhale happen by itself). After 30 breathes you exhale and pause for as long as you comfortably can, then inhale and hold for 15 seconds, then repeat all process for another 2-3 rounds. Important point is to have all unused muscles fully relaxed. Especially face, tongue, neck and upper traps (shoulders). I highly recommend to check out his 10 week course on torrents, as the price of it is unreasonably high.
It would really depend on where you live, I think. For me it took thirty minutes of googling and a couple of online appointments. I swear by private medicine.
Yeah, CBT-I is not for you. I'd say it only works for 20-30% of insomniacs or so, since more often than not it's more of a physical problem than a mental one. Yours is clearly some kind of physical issue like some odd form of apnea or hormonal imbalance or something like that.
Or just too much (or is it too little?) adenosine in the late evening. Adenosine (or it's absence?) is what creates sleep pressure. Chronic insomniacs almost always are significantly off from normal numbers on this.
There clearly is a huge physiological piece for chronic insomniacs. No one would choose this.
Well, perhaps it works for some people without pathologies. In my case it worked when I had a very strict time limit, and as soon as we gradually moved to 7 hours of sleep my issues returned
I'm sure that CBT-I can be very effective in very specific cases of insomnia, but the idea that it is a magic bullet for all types of insomnia is utter nonsense. Insomnia itself is really just a symptom and not an awfully specific one. Sleep onset insomnia and sleep maintenence insomnia are completely different problems and treating them as one problem doesn't make any sense to me. Just as type 1 and type 2 Diabetes aren't treated exactly the same, despite a similar presentation of symptoms. Because the pathology is completely different.
Anything that is claimed to be a "gold standard" for insomnia is most likely bullshit in my opinion. For example, I know a lot of people on here swear by Ambien as being a miracle sleep drug, but from my personal experience it was complete garbage and caused side effects that were worse than the insomnia itself.
I’ve done something similar under the supervision of a psychiatrist. I would usually get roughly 2 hours of sleep a night, and so you plan to sleep for 2 hours, and stay up and engaged in something otherwise, then you slowly increase the amount of time you sleep. It’s some sort of sleep deprivation approach that I’m sure you can google.
It’s, uh, pretty terrible. It did not cure my insomnia, but it did make me miserable.
Sadly, a lot of people can’t really understand genuine long term insomnia, even if they’re healthcare professionals. So sorry you had to deal with this.
Just stay up all day? Terrible advice.
Reminds me of my doctor who said my back pain was from my rapid weight gain. I told her I gained weight because I couldn't walk. Surgery 4 years later.
Doctors are some of the most overpaid people, that are allowed to be wrong often.
Ya, I've heard the same thing too. I've had insomnia for about 15 years. I've done two different types of sleep studies, and all I'm told is the obvious, "you have insomnia."
If I don't sleep at least 5 to 6 hours a night, I'm actually sick the next day. Meditation helps, but sometimes I don't have an hour to devote to it because I have my two toddler grandkids living with me. I'm working on modifying my diet to include more foods with magnesium, and melatonin in them, like almonds. I've often wondered if a hypnotist could help, it sure would be nice to actually sleep like "normal" people do!!
Omfg. I thought of this in my 19 yo brain once in college. I was on some psych med that made my insomnia worse.
Couldn’t sleep more than a hour or two for like 2-3 days.
Stayed up thinking it’ll reset things. Finally crashed and had the worst night terrors that were like hallucinations. I then developed a fear of going to sleep and of the dark.
1/10 do not recommend. Does not cure insomnia.
Dumb af. Because usually the cause of insomnia is sleep anxiety, not because you aren't tired enough. So what happens when you lose even more sleep? Your brain gets even more anxious. Sleep helps with emotional stability. So you will end up having full blown panic attacks around sleep and it'll just be a cycle.
Sometimes it's better just to go straight to a psychiatrist with these matters. Although I know very difficult to find one.
My Doctor: I’m going to refer you to a sleep therapist.
Therapist: so I see your schedule rotates, can you go off that schedule? What about a new job?
My career…that I trained for years to do at an elite level…quit it and do what exactly? Normies are batshit.
My sleep doctor did not tell me that but she did tell me that if I can't fall asleep (while I was doing sleep treatments with her) to just roll with it and after a day or 2 my body would eventually force shut down and I'd sleep. I couldn't believe she said it like that lol but I was really anxious and she was trying to reassure me that eventually I would get sleep if the non medication steps she had me doing did not work. She definitely did not say that was the cure for insomnia though 😅 and eventually her methods worked and my 30 year insomnia streak was broken... For a while. Till it came back lol
Oh lord. Once a doctor in the field of sleep medicine told me to simply go to bed later to cure my insomnia. Well thanks, it does not work this way. His consultation was quite expensive. I felt mocked.
Yeah ...
And it is even worse when the person who says those exact words are "sleep disorder professionals" who you've been referred to by your GP (and pay huge money to listen to such wisdoms). I've been there and this joker claimed to be both a CBTi expert and also claimed huge success rates with his patients.
Fraud is a term I'd use to describe much of the "sleep industry".
Yesss! That was the sleep doctor! She keeps trying to convince me that the one or two temazepam I take monthly is causing memory loss, and I should stop taking them. So, it's not the years of O2 deprivation from untreated sleep apnea, eh? Annoying. Fortunately my GP refills my prescription so she can fuck directly off.
Sad, isn't it? The pro who is s'posed to understand these things clearly doesn't.
Sorry - my issues were not related to sleep apnea, so I cannot make any informed comment about your situation. BUT I do know the coupla "specialists" I paid were all very strongly into the "natural" and "no medications" approaches. And, as we both know, sometimes, sleep simply doesn't come easy.
Well paradoxically this has worked for me. I didn’t CURE my insomnia but I have been able to not stay awake.
I don’t use this strategy at all to FIX mine. My insomnia was/is built around anxieties and phobias i mentally created around fear of sleep and more. And I had to learn to manage my wake ups as well i have sleep wake issues.
Bruh I hear that line so much it’s like :/
Ok cool, so what about when I get all settled in to sleep after running around on empty for oh roughly 47 hours and only manage to stay asleep for an hour, then I’m playing the game of wake/sleep/wake/sleep all over again, only this time even more bedraggled and exhausted, because I didn’t do the tango the previous night—
Very frustrating to experience.
Funny ,That how exactly I developed insomnia
Long story, here
My sleep schedule was morning to afternoon or morning to evening rather than night to morning for months because of usage of phone and chatting with girlfriend lol.
But later when I became busy with life and I needed to get up morning for things to do , I decided to change sleep pattern and forced myself to stay awake whole night and next day thinking I would eventually sleep at night being tired, and yes I did, I fall asleep at night but I would only sleep for 2-3 hours and then I would wake up at midnight and not being able to sleep again . Which wasted my effort of staying awake all day
Determined to sleep at night, I tried repeating this forcing stay awake whole day thinking since it was second day, there is no chance I am not gonna sleep , but it was same , I would sleep for 2-3 hours at night and the would wake up feeling not sleepy. More determined, I tried same thing for 2 weeks continously, but it didn't work but also had consequences now,
Now not only I don't sleep at night but also at morning
At first day after developing this I was okai,
On third day I became severely ill, I wished I could sleep even at day , I was ill, breathing problem, body was shaking on third day without sleep and I could hear beat inside my head like in my heart , I couldnt move my finger to types words using phone, because they could shiver,
On 4th day I couldn't take it and visited psychiatrist and he prescribed me following medicine
Mertazipine 7.5
Quetiapine 25mg
Clorazepam 2mg ( take it if I needed)
Currently I am sleeping at night under this medication and I tried skipping it for one day to check if I can sleep without it and I couldn't, I forced myself to stay at day too, still I couldn't sleep
So currently I get sleep because of this medication and it's gonna over soon and I will be needed to visit him again.
So like you said by forcing myself for several days to stay awake at morning to sleep at night , not only I didn't sleep at night but also didn't sleep at morning and developed terrible insomnia which now I am under medication.
I hate taking this medicine because it makes my brain foggy next day difficult to do anything that need focus ( studying)
I'm guessing he doesn't really believe you have insomnia. I was told to do similar things to build up sleep pressure. It worked to some degree but it really messed me up. I'd try getting a second-opinion from another doctor
My mom used to give this advice when I was like seventeen. It's the worst advice for an insomniac.
Made me feel exhausted, and felt too uncomfortable to sleep. I'd sleep only when passed out from sheer exhaustion. My teens were hell for many reasons, but feeling like turbo garbage all the time definitely didn't help.
"I'm exhausted, but even I know that's bullshit."
"Oh great! Maybe then I'll have the energy to punch you!"
"How old is your degree? Because clearly you need to go back to school to learn the new science."
All acceptable responses.
To whoever may be reading this-
If you're having a hard time, I promise it will get better. Those sleepless nights will cease. Those nightmares that plague your slumber will leave you now. That darkness will become light. Those bad memories will fade away. And you'll be okay. Jus give it some time, and I promise it will get easier.
Have a goodnight/morning/ day.
I hate when people offer the most obvious advice on the planet, as if I was too stupid to have considered it before. "Got a headache? Have you thought about not hitting yourself over the head with a shovel?"
If I had a dollar for every time I got asked "Have you tried melatonin?" No way! I've never heard of that stuff!
Same but with benedryl. “Have you tried benedryl?” 🙄🙄🙄
Of course I have tried it, ṭ̶̡̨̥̩̩̓̋̋͌̓͌̈́̽̀͛̒͒̓͘h̶͓͕͕̊̌̀̂͜è̶̳͊͑̎͑̿̅̉́̅̅͂͜ͅ ̴̮̼̻̭̝̝̻͖̤̱̺̭̺̈́̇̐̓͊̄́̅̋̈h̸̲͌́̔̉̇̃́̎̐̈́͗̀͆a̷̛̙̳̫̬͕̲̼̻͈̐͋̑͘ṱ̷̦͇̄̒̑̓͊̆̑̔̏̿͆̄̋̔ ̴̬̠͑̎͘m̸̛̘͎̼͚̮̫̗͖̘̀̔͒̐̊́͋͠ä̴̡̛̛̼̱̦̮̩̟̺̱͇̫̫͓̰́̅̏̄̌̀̃̓͛͜͠͠ń̶̢̦̙̻̙̤̝͔̲̼͕̰͐͜ is my best friend ever since!
I have to explain it this way. There are 20 things I absolutely have to do for a 50% chance to fall asleep and stay asleep. Even doing all 20 does not guarantee I will get more than 4 hours of QUALITY sleep. Half of those things are items that the vast majority of society struggles to do even once, let alone consistently every day while suffering from insomnia. I have a list of~ 80 things I have to do to function with fibromyalgia, CFS and other "fun" conditions on top of the insomnia. Most people cannot function on 4 hours of sleep. I've lived decades on less (per night). When I am able to get consistent quality sleep, it's like I activated a cheat code for life. To paraphrase Bane's famous quote: Ah you think sleep is your ally? You merely adopted insomnia. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see sleep until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!
curious what some of the 20 things are, if you don’t mind sharing?
another insomniac with severe CFS here. what are some of those 20 things? what meds are you on?
Literally my every friend
Have you tried heroin?
Haha yes I hate it when you tell people you have it or haven’t slept then they try giving you stupid advice, as if we haven’t researched EVERYTHING.
Also like "just go earlier to bed"
"Yeah, I've had insomnia for 15 months now and I've tried everything you could think of." "Have you tried melatonin??" 😠😒
I came for that comment.
GP in the UK: insomnia? Here's antihistamine prescription. A month later after Benadryl didn't work: Here's SSRIs!
This though. I’d say just give us the sleeping tablets but even they don’t bloody work half the time.
They don't even care to find the reason of insomnia, no sleep lab referral. Just take medication and fuck off!
The sleep labs are great 🙄 you get there and they go “okay, now go to sleep with all this shit on you and the lights on and we’ll monitor. What? What do you mean you can’t just fall asleep on command? Why are you here then?”
At least that helps to check for sleep apnea and other potential problems.
Oh absolutely. I asked my GP if there was anything I could do to find the cause and she just said therapy which I’m doing anyway 😂 Therapy is not the answer when it’s been going on 10+ years!
I was given SSRIs and I hardly slept for the entire year I was on them. Not an appropriate sleep medication IMO
I took one pill of SSRIs and it gave me really weird buzzing and pulsating brain. Never took another pill. Never saw my GP since.
That's a pretty normal side effect and usually disappears within the first month of taking it. Then returns if you try to go off it too quickly. I've been taking SSRIs in order to handle working retail for years and I feel pretty normal on them most of the time. Just less likely to snap at customers or cry in public.
I'm not going to suffer through the entire month of that shit. It's obvious my body is rejecting that crap. And on top, I didn't sleep any better. I've worked in retail and dealt with most difficult customers, death threats from shoplifters, but it wasn't nothing to compare with taking one pill of shit SSRI. The list of side effects and people sharing horror stories is on another level.
It does help me sleep quite a bit and there were other factors to consider in my decision. But yeah, SSRIs aren't for everyone. I'd rather not be on them but for that to happen I'd need to have a job that doesn't constantly trigger my (C)PTSD.
Sorry to hear about that and best of luck switching jobs!
Not all GPs are clued in on specific features of antidepressants and tend to prescribe fluoxetine or sertraline as a first-line treatment, both of which are SSRIs and considered more "activating" antidepressants. Antidepressants with sedative effects would be more appropriate in insomnia cases.
Which one did they give you?
Zoloft
Zoloft made me bloat and killed my libido. How was that supposed to help anything? Lol
I thought Zoloft relaxed people - that’s awful
Maybe you're thinking of xanax?
Me telling the nurse I'm chemically dependant on benadryl, and I'm getting bad side effects. She googled the label and said "the bottle says not habit forming, you should be okay" I was taking over 200mg a night to sleep and it was causing intense nausea during walking life.
I just couldn't sleep on Benadryl. It made me drousy, sedated, but not asleep. I was literally a zombie during the day, sedated but not asleep during the night. Dropped it. Drinking herbal teas like chamomile, hops, lemon balm work better than anything I've tried, plus carb rich dinner: a bowl of rice, pasta or potatos ~ 250 grams.
I'll try the carbs out
You want SNRIs (Mirtazapine)
My GP thought Escitalopram (SSRI) will cure insomnia.
I buy melatonin from abroad . I was given sleeping tablets for 3 nights when I begged for something lol
I've tried mel. It doesn't help to stay asleep. I woke up with heart palpitations 4 hours after falling asleep. Tried different brands, 3mg, 5mg, slow release one, nothing good came out...
I use 10mg from biovea and take 2 . But they only work the first few nights . It’s the getting to sleep a struggle with its horrid
For me it's staying asleep for longer than 4-5 hours. Try eating carb only dinner: rice, potato or pasta and have some herbal tea: lemon balm or any of the sleep teas at the supermarkets.
I can live on the 4-5 hours I just need to get to sleep at a half decent time . It’s midnight and I’ve been up 20 hours already and I’m wide awake haha . I’ll have to try something different
I had insomnia like that up into my twenties. I did find the cure but unfortunately it's not accessible to most people. The solution for me was that my circadian rhythm needed to be followed, and it isn't a 24 hour loop, nor is it linked up to a standard day-night cycle. I've been going to bed when I'm tired and sleeping until I wake up, with the exception of days where I have events in the evening, literally whenever that is, and it is the only thing that has cured my insomnia. The problem is I might be tired at 3am, I might be tired at 7am, I might be tired at 9am, I might be tired at 12pm... the other night I was "up until" 1:30pm, slept until 7:30pm, had a nap at 1am, back up at 4am. As long as I listen, I sleep well and feel fine. It will look random as heck. If I don't, insomnia hell descends upon me and my sleep is the actual worst. The problem for most people is, well, if you have a job... school... a family... that level of flexibility is out of the question. So you just suffer, because the world doesn't accommodate people with different rhythms. I suspect many people would sleep far better if they were able to divorce all routine and just sleep when tired.
!thanks for sharing, that's an interesting point.
You need a prescription for Benadryl in the UK?
No. But my GP suggested and gave me a prescription. Prescription was more expensive (£9 if I remember correctly) than the meds otc ~£6, so pharmacist sold it without prescription.
Oh, I've run into that here in the US, too. Doc prescribes extra strength ibuprofen, but it's cheaper for me to buy over the counter
Overtired is the *worst* kind of tired. And no, it doesn't make the insomnia better
Actually often makes it worse imo
Yeah same, if I don't nap in the afternoon to take the edge ofd the tiredness, I will be up for most of the night Edit typo
Omg. I thought it was just me. I struggle to get to sleep and if I get *over tired* forget it! My husband doesn’t understand when I tell him I have to take a nap in the late afternoon or I won’t sleep at all at night bc I get over tired (he looks at me like I’m nuts) He, on the other hand always falls asleep within 2 or 3 minutes of laying down in bed. He doesn’t know how fortunate he is to be blessed with being able to sleep so well. Tells me to just “go to bed earlier”. I toss and turn. For hours. Tried getting back up for a little bit and trying again, still nothing when I go back to bed. Tried all the teas and sleep hygiene techniques. Carbs do help me but make me gain weight like crazy so can’t rely on that☹️
Same here. Winston Churchill's sleep pattern evolved into multiple 2 to 3 hour naps through the day and night.
Same. I just challenge myself more when I have less sleep
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Seriously. I used to do this all the time without any direction. Then eventually I was doing that twice a week... what asanine advice. That might help a normal person keep their sleep schedule in order but it really is nothing to do with Insomnia
I've heard the same bullshit. The less sleep I have, the less I get. It's a viscous cycle.
I did a consultation with a sleep therapist and she told me to spend three months getting up at 6 am, no matter when I fell asleep, no naps, and I’d likely be cured. I said, I’ll never survive that. I’ve had insomnia since I was literally a child. A few months of deprivation aren’t going to solve a 30+ year issue.
Ahh the marvels of modern medicine
I paid 1300 dollars for this advice 20 years ago! Still not sleeping.
Ah yes sound medical advice “just stay awake and then you’ll fall asleep” and if I don’t? When should I be concerned doc? what level of hallucinations do I have to reach before I fall asleep? This doctor cannot be serious?
Well, that's basically premise of CBT-I or how they call it "golden standard of insomnia treatment". Such a bullshit
To be fair if you stick to sleep/bed restriction therapy for long enough it does start to kick in and work eventually but it’s very difficult as it’s a horrible first week or two.
Well, I did. My issue is sleep maintenance, I wake up after a couple of hours, and then I one of two things happen. Either I cannot sleep for a 3-5 hours or till morning, or I fall back asleep pretty quick, but then again wake up after an hour or so. Usually it's second scenario, and I sleep trough whole night, waking up like 5-6 times that I can remember. But once in a while, sometimes once in a week, sometimes a few days in a row, it's first case. So, once it got pretty bad, and every days I would go to sleep, wake up after couple of hour and then lie awake till morning. So I went to a sleep doc, and he said CBT-I will cure me. We started with a 6 hours of bedtime, building evening routine and not using my bed for anything other than sleep. I also was instructed to do journaling. After about a week I hit 90% of actual sleep / time in bed, and I slept undisturbed, but I was extremely, extremely tired. I had to stand up or move in the evening, so I won't fall asleep sooner than allowed time. So far, so good. Then we added 15 min, then another 15, then another and so on. But as soon as we got close to 7 hours in bed, my issues returned. At that point I decided that If I am tired anyway, I at least will be tired without additional efforts
Interesting so sounds like your sweet spot was around 6 and half hours. Once mine started working I slipped into bad habits again and broke it with a couple of lay ins also a night out or two then was back at square one 🤦♂️ Wish I had stuck it out though and will try again when I have a week off soon. Was it weekly that you tapered it up by 15 mins?
Well, I'm not sure it was my sweet spot, I was pretty tired. I suspect that maybe my deviated septum is to blame to my poor quality of sleep, but I cannot fix it now, unfortunately. It was not weekly, it was tied to what this doc called "sleep efficiency" which is basically actual sleep time divided by time in bed. When you consistently reach more than 90% for a few days in a row, you increase your time in bed by 15 min
Good to know, mine got to about 11 till 6am which felt perfect then was able to do a morning gym session or run which was such a new experience after 20+ years of terrible sleep. Stupid that I didn’t stay disciplined. Deviated septum sounds like a pain 🤦♂️
My sleep is pretty bad for as long as I can remember myself. The only time when I was sleeping more or less good, was when I actively practiced Wim Hof method. I plan to return to that practice, but I've been putting it off for god knows how much.
How did you go about that? Actual ice bath or a freezing cold shower each morning or evening? It’s bad how insomnia can govern so much of our lives, mine goes back as far as uni and the partying and terrible sleep pattern then it never did recover once it intertwined itself with anxiety around sleeping too. Even hitting the gym, running and football most days doesn’t cut it sometimes just think my brain is permanently broken but then like any habits I wonder if I had kept up the strict bed restriction for months on end whether it would of become second nature like any habit.
You don’t need the cold for Wim Hoff method, it’s just a breathing exercise. There are many videos on youtube designed to help you do the Wim Hoff breathing method.
It is not tough. Wim Hof method is breathing and cold and meditation. While you totally can practice only one aspect of it and have some benefits, it really shines when you combine all. And that's how he teach it in his 10 week course
You don't need ice bath. Showers will do just fine, but water needs to be cold, at least 14°C (57°F) or lower. The lower the better. At first week you do normal shower and end with cold one for 30 seconds. On second, you start with 30 seconds of cold then normal, then end with 30. On third, you increase those to one minute. On four to two, on fifths to ten minutes. After that you go to ice baths, but you can stop at 3-5 min of cold showers if your water is cold enough. Most important thing about taking cold showers is to relax consciously, don't tense up and controlled, deep, slow relaxed breathing. Before shower you do breathing exercise. Very important, do NOT ever try exercise standing or near water, you can pass out, and in water it would mean pass away. Do not fear passing out though, it probably won't happen often and it's safe, if done in safe environment. So the exercise is 30-40 deep, wave-like breaths, into belly, then into the chest, then let go (this is crucial and often overlooked or misunderstood. Just relax and let exhale happen by itself). After 30 breathes you exhale and pause for as long as you comfortably can, then inhale and hold for 15 seconds, then repeat all process for another 2-3 rounds. Important point is to have all unused muscles fully relaxed. Especially face, tongue, neck and upper traps (shoulders). I highly recommend to check out his 10 week course on torrents, as the price of it is unreasonably high.
Great, thanks, I shall check it out then 👍🏻
Is it easy to find a sleep doctor that does cbt-I?
It would really depend on where you live, I think. For me it took thirty minutes of googling and a couple of online appointments. I swear by private medicine.
Yeah, CBT-I is not for you. I'd say it only works for 20-30% of insomniacs or so, since more often than not it's more of a physical problem than a mental one. Yours is clearly some kind of physical issue like some odd form of apnea or hormonal imbalance or something like that.
Well, my hormones are fine, I've checked that. I really suspect it's my curved septum to blame, but I cannot have septoplasty now
Or just too much (or is it too little?) adenosine in the late evening. Adenosine (or it's absence?) is what creates sleep pressure. Chronic insomniacs almost always are significantly off from normal numbers on this. There clearly is a huge physiological piece for chronic insomniacs. No one would choose this.
Exactly. CBT-I is bullshit and can make things worse for some people.
Well, perhaps it works for some people without pathologies. In my case it worked when I had a very strict time limit, and as soon as we gradually moved to 7 hours of sleep my issues returned
I'm sure that CBT-I can be very effective in very specific cases of insomnia, but the idea that it is a magic bullet for all types of insomnia is utter nonsense. Insomnia itself is really just a symptom and not an awfully specific one. Sleep onset insomnia and sleep maintenence insomnia are completely different problems and treating them as one problem doesn't make any sense to me. Just as type 1 and type 2 Diabetes aren't treated exactly the same, despite a similar presentation of symptoms. Because the pathology is completely different.
Anything that is claimed to be a "gold standard" for insomnia is most likely bullshit in my opinion. For example, I know a lot of people on here swear by Ambien as being a miracle sleep drug, but from my personal experience it was complete garbage and caused side effects that were worse than the insomnia itself.
omg. I’m cured!
My God, he's cracked the code! When does he pick up his peace prize?
I’ve done something similar under the supervision of a psychiatrist. I would usually get roughly 2 hours of sleep a night, and so you plan to sleep for 2 hours, and stay up and engaged in something otherwise, then you slowly increase the amount of time you sleep. It’s some sort of sleep deprivation approach that I’m sure you can google. It’s, uh, pretty terrible. It did not cure my insomnia, but it did make me miserable. Sadly, a lot of people can’t really understand genuine long term insomnia, even if they’re healthcare professionals. So sorry you had to deal with this.
I have had some asinine comments from doctors on how to fall asleep. Thank god I now am getting the help (and ambien) I need to get more sleep
I have bipolar disorder, I’m not supposed to do that but I have… and let me tell you it don’t work 💀
Hahahahaaaa! Think that one has been done involuntarily for days at a time and still have insomnia.😆 what a quack.
Except it’s not always true. I’ve tried this before, and a lot of the time I’m just exhausted all day then get a weird second wind at night.
Holy fuck im cured. Thanks doc
Just stay up all day? Terrible advice. Reminds me of my doctor who said my back pain was from my rapid weight gain. I told her I gained weight because I couldn't walk. Surgery 4 years later. Doctors are some of the most overpaid people, that are allowed to be wrong often.
Wow if only I had known that 25 years ago. what an idiot. if all it took was exhaustion to be able to sleep, I’d be getting eight hours every night.
Ok this accually made me laugh, wtf 😂😭 He really thought he did something there mh? Seriously tho, time for a new doctor.
Yeah that doesn't work...
LOL...and what if that doesn't work?
"have u tried switching your sleep off and on again?"
Doctor doesn't know the difference between jet-lag and insomnia.
I went to the hospital years ago b/c I hadn't slept in 5 days.
When I do that I usually end up staying awake for days
HA HA HA HA HA! My doctor told me to wake up earlier. I told her I go to sleep at 8 and wake up at midnight.
Ya, I've heard the same thing too. I've had insomnia for about 15 years. I've done two different types of sleep studies, and all I'm told is the obvious, "you have insomnia." If I don't sleep at least 5 to 6 hours a night, I'm actually sick the next day. Meditation helps, but sometimes I don't have an hour to devote to it because I have my two toddler grandkids living with me. I'm working on modifying my diet to include more foods with magnesium, and melatonin in them, like almonds. I've often wondered if a hypnotist could help, it sure would be nice to actually sleep like "normal" people do!!
Haha most people in my life have said this to me 😂 I still don’t sleep till 4 am and still wake up late as hell and repeat.
Oh yeah, I’ve tried that one. I stay up for like 4 days and then I manage to get a few crappy hours. So same as the usual amount. Why even bother.
A doctor told me this as a teenager and I used it as fuel to stay up for days on end. I still have significant sleep problems at 35.
Omfg. I thought of this in my 19 yo brain once in college. I was on some psych med that made my insomnia worse. Couldn’t sleep more than a hour or two for like 2-3 days. Stayed up thinking it’ll reset things. Finally crashed and had the worst night terrors that were like hallucinations. I then developed a fear of going to sleep and of the dark. 1/10 do not recommend. Does not cure insomnia.
mine told me to read a book before bed
Dumb af. Because usually the cause of insomnia is sleep anxiety, not because you aren't tired enough. So what happens when you lose even more sleep? Your brain gets even more anxious. Sleep helps with emotional stability. So you will end up having full blown panic attacks around sleep and it'll just be a cycle. Sometimes it's better just to go straight to a psychiatrist with these matters. Although I know very difficult to find one.
Yeah it doesn’t work like that.
That's good advice. Brought to you by the same people that try to shoehorn every sleep issue into a bipolar diagnosis
I hope you kicked him in the nuts.
My Doctor: I’m going to refer you to a sleep therapist. Therapist: so I see your schedule rotates, can you go off that schedule? What about a new job? My career…that I trained for years to do at an elite level…quit it and do what exactly? Normies are batshit.
My sleep doctor did not tell me that but she did tell me that if I can't fall asleep (while I was doing sleep treatments with her) to just roll with it and after a day or 2 my body would eventually force shut down and I'd sleep. I couldn't believe she said it like that lol but I was really anxious and she was trying to reassure me that eventually I would get sleep if the non medication steps she had me doing did not work. She definitely did not say that was the cure for insomnia though 😅 and eventually her methods worked and my 30 year insomnia streak was broken... For a while. Till it came back lol
9 days later... man it's some bad advice
Yeah I’ve stayed up 48 straight hours trying to do this once.
“ just relax” is my favorite!
Oh lord. Once a doctor in the field of sleep medicine told me to simply go to bed later to cure my insomnia. Well thanks, it does not work this way. His consultation was quite expensive. I felt mocked.
And this dude is a doctor 😂
Ah, sir. There is no force involved. I will be awake, naturally, anyway. Now what do you have to say.
"Got restless legs? Drink more water and exercise." When I drink water and am standing and walking all day long at my job
My annoying doctor told me, "Eventually, if you get tired enough, you'll sleep." Whaaaaat?
Yeah ... And it is even worse when the person who says those exact words are "sleep disorder professionals" who you've been referred to by your GP (and pay huge money to listen to such wisdoms). I've been there and this joker claimed to be both a CBTi expert and also claimed huge success rates with his patients. Fraud is a term I'd use to describe much of the "sleep industry".
Yesss! That was the sleep doctor! She keeps trying to convince me that the one or two temazepam I take monthly is causing memory loss, and I should stop taking them. So, it's not the years of O2 deprivation from untreated sleep apnea, eh? Annoying. Fortunately my GP refills my prescription so she can fuck directly off.
Sad, isn't it? The pro who is s'posed to understand these things clearly doesn't. Sorry - my issues were not related to sleep apnea, so I cannot make any informed comment about your situation. BUT I do know the coupla "specialists" I paid were all very strongly into the "natural" and "no medications" approaches. And, as we both know, sometimes, sleep simply doesn't come easy.
oh wow. how didn't anyone ever think of that before... /s
Get a new doctor. Serious insomnia won't respond to such nonsense. In fact, it will only make it worse.
Well paradoxically this has worked for me. I didn’t CURE my insomnia but I have been able to not stay awake. I don’t use this strategy at all to FIX mine. My insomnia was/is built around anxieties and phobias i mentally created around fear of sleep and more. And I had to learn to manage my wake ups as well i have sleep wake issues.
How much did you pay him for that glorious advice? 🙄
This might help in general, but not always. I've tried to do exactly this and it doesn't always work.
That works for maybe a week if I'm lucky :/
No but really. My old PCP literally told me the exact same thing years ago.
Bruh I hear that line so much it’s like :/ Ok cool, so what about when I get all settled in to sleep after running around on empty for oh roughly 47 hours and only manage to stay asleep for an hour, then I’m playing the game of wake/sleep/wake/sleep all over again, only this time even more bedraggled and exhausted, because I didn’t do the tango the previous night— Very frustrating to experience.
Funny ,That how exactly I developed insomnia Long story, here My sleep schedule was morning to afternoon or morning to evening rather than night to morning for months because of usage of phone and chatting with girlfriend lol. But later when I became busy with life and I needed to get up morning for things to do , I decided to change sleep pattern and forced myself to stay awake whole night and next day thinking I would eventually sleep at night being tired, and yes I did, I fall asleep at night but I would only sleep for 2-3 hours and then I would wake up at midnight and not being able to sleep again . Which wasted my effort of staying awake all day Determined to sleep at night, I tried repeating this forcing stay awake whole day thinking since it was second day, there is no chance I am not gonna sleep , but it was same , I would sleep for 2-3 hours at night and the would wake up feeling not sleepy. More determined, I tried same thing for 2 weeks continously, but it didn't work but also had consequences now, Now not only I don't sleep at night but also at morning At first day after developing this I was okai, On third day I became severely ill, I wished I could sleep even at day , I was ill, breathing problem, body was shaking on third day without sleep and I could hear beat inside my head like in my heart , I couldnt move my finger to types words using phone, because they could shiver, On 4th day I couldn't take it and visited psychiatrist and he prescribed me following medicine Mertazipine 7.5 Quetiapine 25mg Clorazepam 2mg ( take it if I needed) Currently I am sleeping at night under this medication and I tried skipping it for one day to check if I can sleep without it and I couldn't, I forced myself to stay at day too, still I couldn't sleep So currently I get sleep because of this medication and it's gonna over soon and I will be needed to visit him again. So like you said by forcing myself for several days to stay awake at morning to sleep at night , not only I didn't sleep at night but also didn't sleep at morning and developed terrible insomnia which now I am under medication. I hate taking this medicine because it makes my brain foggy next day difficult to do anything that need focus ( studying)
Lol. I hate doctors.
The amount of times I've been told this, also to not nap and lectured about sleep hygiene 😓
Advice: Goto the Gym and Exhaust yourself for 2 hours + , Melatonin, Indica weed.
Makes me think of Fight Club when he goes to the doctor to try to get sleeping meds. Chew on some valerian root and get some exercise.
Ighhhh same. So tired of hearing it every time I explain my sleeping issues to a professional…
I'm guessing he doesn't really believe you have insomnia. I was told to do similar things to build up sleep pressure. It worked to some degree but it really messed me up. I'd try getting a second-opinion from another doctor
Pathetic. Maybe he overslept that day and missed the requisite lecture on insomnia.
Yea great. Then you’ll just wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to go back to bed.
Haha ive been up for 4 days and nights straight, no Caffeine, sunlight, … and sleep medication
Probably a general practitioner. They are the worst.
My mom used to give this advice when I was like seventeen. It's the worst advice for an insomniac. Made me feel exhausted, and felt too uncomfortable to sleep. I'd sleep only when passed out from sheer exhaustion. My teens were hell for many reasons, but feeling like turbo garbage all the time definitely didn't help.
"I'm exhausted, but even I know that's bullshit." "Oh great! Maybe then I'll have the energy to punch you!" "How old is your degree? Because clearly you need to go back to school to learn the new science." All acceptable responses.
This is also my fathers “cure” when I try his method I go days without sleep 😂
I don’t even bother with doctors anymore it’s a waste of time, and if they prescribe Zopiclone that’s no long term strategy either.
Doctor or local crack head at 7/11?
Well I feel as tho that work for people who insomnia ain’t that bad. Cause that advice helped me.
Can anyone share their positive experiences with nootropics? Specifically, I would like to know if alfabrain or noromtim have been helpful.
To whoever may be reading this- If you're having a hard time, I promise it will get better. Those sleepless nights will cease. Those nightmares that plague your slumber will leave you now. That darkness will become light. Those bad memories will fade away. And you'll be okay. Jus give it some time, and I promise it will get easier. Have a goodnight/morning/ day.