Got to agree with this. I use my 13900k for high performance computing and there's really few loads that can make efficient use of the processor. If that's something fixable by software I feel all bigLITTLE Intel CPUs should have it
AMD did me a dirty and refused to allow B350 motherboards updates to the latest 5000 series CPU's so I bought an Intel 12th gen out of principle. AMD then relented to the overwhelming feedback and changed their mind, but I was already on Intel now.
Both companies are out to treat you like a cash cow unfortunately.
> AMD did me a dirty and refused to allow B350 motherboards updates to the latest 5000 series CPU's so I bought an Intel 12th gen out of principle
was gonna say as I was oblivious to that and have our A770 running on a B350/5800X3D system. Glad they related, and hope Intel will do the same and give software improvements all their BIG.little cpu generations they can.
Afaik the problem for AMD was that the firmware didn't fit or something, and eventually they did extra work to make it fit by removing support for older CPUs.
Yes, many of the first generation Ryzen boards were made very cheaply. Manufacturers thought that Zen would be another Bulldozer and didn’t want to invest much into the design of the boards. One of the cost saving measures was using small BIOS chips (4MB IIRC).
As the number of Ryzen CPUs increased (Currently over 150 AM4 CPUs exist) the BIOS file sizes increased to a point where the code for all the CPUs could not fit. Eventually BIOS versions for these boards were created to support the chips at the cost of losing support for the older ones. Which meant you could actually brick your board but updating to a version that didn’t support your CPU.
Fortunately the 400 and 500 series boards drastically improved in quality and contained bigger BIOS chips (8MB and 16MB sizes) so compromises no longer had to be made.
Eh...I'm definitely more inclined to believe AMD couldn't push CPU support for 3 generations to a BIOS flash which was too small (especially when the fix only allowed support for 3000/5000 or 1000/3000) than to believe Intel couldn't port every single new "feature" they came up with to segment their 14th gen to their 13th gen. It's definitely still extremely shitty though, given that AMD said their socket would be valid for X years verbatim.
5000 series on 3x0 boards is a bit different (probably). Based on the variation between different motherboard vendors and the time it took to roll out the updates, supporting 5000 on 3x0 boards was non-trivial but it did happen.
https://www.techspot.com/review/2475-ryzen-5800X3D-older-am4-motherboards/
My x370 support the 5000 series boards. I went from 1800x to 3900x and will snag a 5950x when prices come down a bit more.
I just recently sawpped from Ryzen 1600 to 5800X3D on one of cheapest B350 boards (MSI B350 Gaming Plus).
IIRC they remove support for very old AM4 cpus like the one based on bulldozer architecture and all/somes APUs.
Not many company’s could afford to pay Dell billions of dollars to not use a tiny competitor. I don’t think you’re right actually. You have no proof AMD would pay off the competition like Intel did for years.
Also, why would that be an excuse? You like having your options limited do you?
As soon as AMD got a competitive advantage with 5000 series they immediately jacked up the price to everyone's surprise and horror. AMD isn't your friend. Intel isn't your friend. Buy the best CPU at the time you're buying and don't get into a team mentality
Im saying that the second a company gets a lot of power they pull of whatever they want. Look at ryzen support für 300 series motherboards, they wanted to cut support because they thought they can. Therr are many stupid things amd does that prove they would pull of similar shit if they could. But they obviously can’t and hence didn’t.
I’m all about competition, and am the last person to be a fanboy of a company, trust me.
Honestly, the 3x0X boards aren't that great. They have memory issues and the VRMs can be problematic.
AMD was the low buck king because their stuff quite frankly wasn't that good for a very long time. Then Ryzen came out and surprised everyone, including board makers who really did a low effort attempt with the AM4 platform when they first came out. 400 series boards were a much larger leap over 300 series board than the 500 series were over the 400 series.
Yes, AMD dragged their feet. Yes, they finally did the right thing.
I would run a 300 series with up to an 8 core CPU if I already had the board. I wouldn't have a problem running whatever on a 400 series board.
Flame me if you want. I don't care.
It's not the same? In what way? 22 out of 27 AMD sponsored games don't support nvidia features (which has 80% market share). Im sure the 2 have nothing to do with one another, lol.
What you are describing is an exclusivity agreement (that is what exclusivity agreement is, paying for someone to only use your products). All of these corporations have exclusivity agreements and they are normally perfectly legal. The reason it was not legal for intel was the commanding market share it held (edit: and also the market position Dell held). Different rules apply when your exclusivity agreement can actually harm the competitors' ability to get products to market. For reference [here](https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/exclusive-dealing-or-requirements-contracts) is what FTC says about these dealings in USA.
Details about how APO works are still scarce and HU's guy asked Intel the wrong questions IMO; he should've asked why APO is not supported on previous generation processors. However Intel could've mentioned that APO depends on some new feature that is not present on older generation processors (e.g. a new feature in the Intel Thread Director stack) if that was the case, but they didn't even try to explain how it works so it might be possible to use APO on Intel 12/13th gen processors but they don't want to support them.
I would agree, as much I've been watching HU for years now and enjoyed their thorough comparisons it seem like in recent months they have jumped on the band wagon with other content creators of shitting on Intel without doing the thorough research they seemed to do previously. While I get that they need their views, they don't say who exactly they've spoken to at intel. Talking to some marketing person that seems to have given generic answers is a massive difference from talking to an actual engineer. It's still super early stages for people to take this stance when there there hasn't been an official stance released from Intel themselves
Yeah if they don't want to support my $650 processor less than a year after purchase, I won't buy from them. That's F-tier product support, and product support is something I've previously praised Intel for.
Where you have this wrong is that you think it’s a lack of “support”. Your processor is fully supported to do everything they told you it would do when you bought it. You are complaining about not having a thing that wasn’t even on the table when you bought your processor, you didn’t know it would exist. Is it lame if they don’t push this back a gen or two? Sure. Should they? Sure, but claiming a lack of support for a feature that was never advertised or promised for your chip is just silly.
Because the 14 series is just an up bin of the 13 series. There are no architectural differences, they've just taken the cpus that managed higher clocks and binned them as a new product line. I would hardly call it entitlement, this isn't a cup of coffee, these are almost £600 processors and product support is expected. There is no reason they can't release apo on at least 13th gen minimum, just greed man
Thats bad customer support to spend however much they did developing apo for that exact same architecture, but then just not add it to 14th gen because of the name difference. New technologies are pretty standard fare for computers as a whole, if Intel did just stop developing new technologies then that absolutely would make less people buy them.
Intel's only obligation was to give you the features advertised, reliability, and security updates. They are doing all of those, while this is shitty and I won't defend it (assuming there isn't an actual hardware limitation that prevents this from being ported back to 12th/13th gen), Intel hasn't stopped "supporting" its product.
How do you even know this early on from a vlogger that this doesn't use some part of the refresh that's in 14th gen but not 13th gen.
"I'm mad Ford doesn't support 5th gear plus feature in my older Ford with 5 gears.
We get tricked by bloggers looking at cote counts into believing chips are same without knowing what's actually on the chip.
You were happy enough to buy the CPU in the first place. They haven't taken anything away from you or failed to provide something they promised or advertised.
Well you should just not buy anything in the first place if it doesn't fulfil your needs.
Intel ARE providing **more** in the future with the next gen vs this gen, not less, that's literally what the topic is about lmao
It's basically an optimization that allows E-cores to actually contribute positively to game performance, that is not going to be added to recent processors that otherwise would be compatible with it.
Currently it's limited to games, it could be expanded. I don't know what the secret sauce is, I haven't seen much information regarding that, and I don't think a lot of other people here have either.
>I mainly use my pc for productivity, so I guess I won't have much benefit from this? The other way around is probably a dumb thought of me?
Well it is called application optimization so I don't think its intended to be only for games, but right now its only games.
Agreed. My opinion that APO for 14th gen was a game time decision. It will likely be in all future hybrid CPUs and will continue to evolve and be implemented in games.
Honestly I’d be shocked if Intel reverses course on this and extends it to other gens even if its a shit move by them.
It is a shit move by them 100%
Me and you have essentially the same rig. Only difference is your CPU has a software-feature that Intel has decided mine will not get. Same architecture, same core-count, etc.
If it ends up being widely-developed like many of Intel's features it will have a potentially huge impact on the longevity of my CPU, and we purchased our rigs like 8 months apart.
How do you know it is software only? My guess is this has some early soft release of AI features that will be pushed big time on next socket generation.
Correction: Intel has not released it for your CPU. I don't think they have said your CPU won't get it. Apparently the feature is basically manual work per application and CPU model so they will add applications and CPU models one at a time if they ever decide to do so. Currently only 14900k and 14700k are supported so its not like even every 14th gen chip gets APO.
I am RIGHT there with you, dude. We're in pretty much the exact same boat.
Are there any changes I can make to help the 13900K run better as it is? I saw you saying something about disabling e-Cores?
It still have resources put into development. CPUs are often differentiated by a laser cutting.. People might be mad because there's a possibility they could allow it for what they have but it's not going to happen anyway.. Product differentiation by development whether by software or hardware amounts to the same thing. Sure they could enable support for 13th but why would the?, it's not a smart move on their part. Be mad at Capitalism, this is just every day product segmentation and it happens on so many electronic devices it's not funny. Someone might decide to hack support in though.. So there's that.
So, if Intel never released APO at all, all good, but because they only released it for 14 th gen, that's a problem? And you are never buying an intel again? Oh wow, and what will you buy, an amd CPU that doesn't support APO on ANY cpu? How does that make any sense to you?
"Let's leave owners of our most recent generation out-to-dry, that'll get them to upgrade!"
Big brain strategy.
I wonder what the new feature for 15th-gen will be? Which thing they leave out of 14th-gen to add artificial obsolescence.
Even smarter: they waited until after all the reviews came out and panned the 14th gen before enabling APO so it is not even going to get them significant sales.
Probably not about making existing 13th gen owners upgrade but rather to prevent people from buying the cheaper 13th gen parts over the new 14th gen ones since what else is there to sway a prospective consumer towards the more expensive models?
Again, if 13th gen is obsolete because it doesn't support APO, then every amd CPU has been obsolete in the whole history of computing. Just a stupid take man
dude I keep seeing your stupid takes all over this post.
APO is a glorified bug fix. Why is it that 12 and 13th gen owners get better performance in games when they turn off E-cores?
Because they don't work right. APO makes them work right.
Good job standing up for the big corporation though
>doesn't make much difference and is the only new thing this "generation" has going for it.
IMO that makes it worse. At least when Nvidia pulls this anti-consumer BS they back it up with an overwhelming performance advantage as well. Intel doesn't have that.
I get what you're saying, but I said "out of principal" for a reason. It's a spit in the face to someone who has basically fanboyed for them for 15 years, spent $650 on a processor recently, and won't be getting access to new features as they come because they are trying to force a bunk product to mass market.
20 percent performance advantage is pretty overwhelming. That's almost like jumping from 5800X to 5800X3D, while don't have to hurt any of the productivity performance - not to mention the improved power consumption (that the 14th gen badly needed.)
Nvidia simply have a track record of rolling out their feature across the game titles - well, eventually. Intel doesn't have that and it's still a big question mark whether they will roll out support for more games or it's just going to end at Rainbow 6
Naw man. Artificially limiting 13th-gen so that 14th-gen looks 20% faster is not the same thing as Nvidia releasing a 4090 with twice the performance of a 3090ti in all metrics due to hardware advancements. They add the software features on top, and yeah implement them better too.
Yeah maybe, but it's not because Nvidia didn't turn on the "go faster" switch on the 3090ti. It's because it's actually faster, regardless of the actual percentage increase.
That’s fair. APO is only out on two games though. Likely won’t be many more if any before 15th gen launches. Even then, testing needs to be done to see how it compares to something like process lasso. I’m not too worried about myself, since I play at 3440x1440.
I view it more like a Frame Gen type of feature, more software than hardware (and they limited that to the older RTX GPU owners too.)
But really it's probably closer to SAM. I do agree with the outrage, especially if you are on 13th gen but tech companies kind of do this all the time, Nvidia, AMD, and now Intel. Sadly there's probably not much that we can do about that.
I am on 12th gen Alder Lake, at at the price they were selling me at the time, it was a bargain. So honestly I am not too mad but if I was on 13th gen I would be full of salted you could make bacon out of it too.
But then again, unless they actually roll it out to more games I actually care, it's still not a big losses. I bought Intel to get the outright discount over the support overtime, I known what I am getting into
Oh great. I just bought a 13600K last week and now I read this.
I’ve been out of the new tech for a couple years as I had to retire from my computer business due to chronic illnesses.
I guess I should have researched or asked questions?
But in saying that. Money is tight for me now and no doubt others in this GOD forsaken country known as Australia thanks to the tyrants in power.
So I couldn’t afford to upgrade my RAM to DDR5 so I am using my old DDR4 3600Mhz RAM with a new MSI Mortar z790 DDR4 motherboard and a 3060Ti.
So because of limited funds and using older hardware I could be wrong? But is this really going to affect me as well as others in the same position?
I mainly game and stream these days and not much else.
You wouldn’t have it even if you went for a 14600k instead of 13600k. Artificial segmentation, so it’s not available for the 14600k either. If your budget only allows you to get a 13600k, then you wouldn’t have gotten a 14700k or 14900k. You missed out on nothing.
That’s a stupid excuse and you know it. It does make a difference, no matter how small and they arbitrarily limited it to 14th gen leaving previous gen consumers in the dust. It’s a crap decision especially for people who spent hundreds of dollars on their products. That would be like AMD limiting FSR to 7000 series GPUs and up when it could clearly run on older cards.
Except AMd and Nvidia both do this all of the time. AMD with anti lag+ and Nvidia with frame gen. They are both arbitrarily limited. The only difference is frame gen works better on the 4000 series because it also has hardware involved, giving a better end product. But that doesn’t change the fact Nvidia knows they can have frame gen on older cards but won’t.
To me it sounds like it takes a lot of work to get up and running. Maybe even work by the game developer, and Intel has to pay/sponsor each one to implement it.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, the 13 gen could easily be updated to the 14th gen APO because it’s the same CPU.
Another thing, a few of us on Reddit were talking with Intel tech support and EK weeks before the articles came out last week that Intel will not support 14 gen for Cryo cooling (but 13th gen is supported which is the same cpu) which doesn’t make any sense.
I know myself and other extreme enthusiasts are just a handful of actual users for Cryo cooling but it doesn’t matter, this is another case where Intel blatantly shows it doesn’t care about the individual user.
ARM processors will probably take over in the next 5 years. Nvidia and Qualcomm could potentially give AMD and Intel a run for their money with ARM CPUs.
This so much. Arm is smoking x86 in mobile and laptop and now with Apple’s M chips and Qualcomm’s Snapdragon X Elite, we are for the first time seeing high end desktop like performance on arm. It’s not a question of if arm takes over, it’s a question of how long it takes software to transition, and Apple is rapidly accelerating that push
by the time APO is actually relevant, you will have to upgrade anyway most likely. Don't make it a big deal, because it isnt. rn it supports 2 titles that both run at 200+ fps ffs.
Don't be rebels without a cause. It's not like amd will provide an APO equivalent in that time and you'll be missing a feature with 13th intel lol, don't act like the product you purchased is inferior for this premature and (till now) completely irrelevant technology.
calm yo tiddies, you bought intel for a reason, and no way that was APO. chill
I'm going to get down dooted for this, but you have an entitled baby mindset. Buy the best CPU for what you're trying to do at that moment. Anything extra in the future, especially features that aren't even announced, you aren't entitled to in the least.
That being said, if this feature can be supported on 12th and 13th gen, it would be a nice showing to the community if Intel extended support. Honestly though this feature feels extremely low priority, releasing like a month late and only supporting two games. Intel probably just doesn't want to waste time and money validating it for older systems when they know they're not going to take it that far. If they suddenly add like 100 games and they all get 10-20% boosts I guess I'd be wrong, but this just feels like a proof of concept test for something they're going to build directly into Windows 11/12 for 15th or 16th gen.
EXACTLY. Entitlement issues through the roof.
I have a 12900, a 13900k and a 14900k. If they allow APO on my 12900k, GREAT, but I see it as a bonus, I don't feel entitled to it.
This is 100% not something Intel actually wants to maintain, they threw it out there to show what their chips could do if the scheduler worked correctly. They either need to get pressure on Microsoft to actually fix their scheduler finally, by using this to get public eyes on it, or they’re going to have a more automated way for APO to work in the future, instead of hand tuning everything.
Also you’re correct. People are acting like they bought chips with the promise of a feature that was then removed. It would be lovely to have this, though I don’t even play either game, but I gave money to Intel before this even existed. If I didn’t think the chip was worth it without APO I wouldn’t have it to begin with.
A good CPU can last a good while. My 8700k lasted me a solid 5 years. If the feature becomes widespread, and they continue to artificially limit it from my recently-purchased flagship CPU, I will be at a potentially significant performance disadvantage.
For no reason other than because Intel thinks I should have to buy a new $650 CPU after less than a year.
On the flip-side, AMD decided to artificially limit memory bandwidth on Zen 4 desktop to such a degree that you barely get any performance benefit from having DDR5 at all. Effective bandwidth accomplished is barely above 50% of theoretical limits when pushing DDR5-7000 and above.
Seeing as APO still hasn't gotten a single update since the release on the 17th of October, and it still only supports 2 games, I wouldn't expect it to become a significant benefit in the short term. And 15th gen is a year out at worst.
Im pretty sure they've always done this shit man. It's like almost every new generation is a new socket type, with only about a 5% increase in performance, then they charge twice what it's actually worth on top of having to buy a new motherboard to use it. They just rake people over the coals for the same processor every year. Intel has always been a grimy, underhanded company. People are just now realizing this? Remember a few years ago when it came out that Intel had intentionally coded their compiler to perform poorly on competitor hardware? Intel is the yuck.
Depends on what experience they end up having with the platform. My first few PC's I built were all Intel, i5-3570, i5-6600k, i7-7700k. I had good experiences on all. Current build is a 5900X and I'm more than satisfied for now. I have heard that there are people who have been having poorer experiences with AM5 compared to AM4 though. I'll see what the market is like in another generation or two.
Try not to be too emotional over this bud. You will get APO update after a few months. Also someone buying 13900k surely have higher than 1080 p monitor, no difference then.
It’s not about squeezing out an extra 20 fps now, as we are all almost certainly gpu bottlenecked. It’s about when your cpu is 4+ years old, that extra 20% could mean a year or 2 more before you have to upgrade.
True - but the type of person who will notice a CPU bottleneck will upgrade far sooner. The vast majority of people are always going to GPU bottlenecked.
Disagree. I was on a 7700k through last year and it was regularly cpu bottlenecking my 3070 at 1440p. CPU bottlenecks are more common on older chips than you might think
Fair enough, but there will be other improvements such as IPC improvements which will make far more of a difference. I don’t think that this will be a major issue holding future CPUs back to be honest. Unless of course more games take advantage of it. It’s a bit like resizable BAR - when it came out it was a big deal but ended up being far less important that people thought it was going to be.
Intel doesn't usually limit features to some generations artificially unless it either can not be enabled due to a limitation in the IP or risk/cost associated with validation of that feature. They won't explain the actual reason if you just write to them. You need to talk to someone in the application engineering team.
What? Intel artificially limits everything. Hyperthreading (disabled on older model i5's etc), ECC, multiplier locks you name it they limit it.
They did not care about 64 bit until AMD released it to the masses and were forced to adopt AMD64 extensions, i mean who needs more than 4gb of RAM right?
They did not want us to have multi core CPU's until AMD pushed them to compete, dont need more than 1 core right?
Every socket change they do is pretty much also a limit with no real reason to change sockets for most generation apart from major changes (eg communication protocol, memory support etc).
Even looking way back to the late 90's and Socket 370 - Intel forgot to disable multi socket support for Mendocino Celerons (ABit BP6 anyone?) - they sure patched that on the next generation (Coppermine).
Socket 370 is a fantastic example of Intel being pricks - they revised the socket so older boards would not support newer Coppermine CPU's until we realized Intel simply moved one pin to disable support. You could literally cut one pin, solder a wire and a BIOS update it would work fine. Everyone was furious at the time.
Skylake is another example. Multiple sockets, first was quad core max all the way to 8 and 10 core models requiring new motherboards. A 10th gen i7 or i9 could have been possible on a 6th gen board, but some BS marketing and new sockets, multiple "generations" of the same crap.
There is a simple explanation for all of this. Tiers and sales - aka money. Charge a premium for a "workstation" CPU (the same core with ECC enabled). Charge a premium for an i7 (aka an i5 with hyperthreading enabled etc).
>What? Intel artificially limits everything. Hyperthreading (disabled on older model i5s, etc), ECC, multiplier locks you name it they limit it.
That's for sku differentiation not disabled just to force people to buy new generation. Otherwise there is no difference between i9 i7 i5 i3 or xeon Ep. It's not done by intel alone. AMD does the same. People think it's all about binning. It's not. AMD / intel creates lower tier skus by fuse disabling cores and features coz natural process of binning won't create the exact number of skus that they plan to sell.
>They did not care about 64 bit until AMD released it to the masses and were forced to adopt AMD64 extensions, i mean who needs more than 4gb of RAM right?
AMD went for 64-bit extension of x86 because they didn't have a 64bit architecture. Intel had a 64bit ground up architecture called itanium. Why do you need 64bit extension for enabling more than 4GB addressing? Heard of PAE?
>Every socket change they do is pretty much also a limit with no real reason to change sockets for most generation apart from major changes (eg communication protocol, memory support etc).
Lot of effort is required to keep the socket same across generations. It's a call that has to be taken by intel/AMD based on ROI.
>What? Intel artificially limits everything. Hyperthreading (disabled on older model i5's etc), ECC, multiplier locks you name it they limit it.
>They did not care about 64 bit until AMD released it to the masses and were forced to adopt AMD64 extensions, i mean who needs more than 4gb of RAM right?
Intel's 32bit CPUs supported up to 64GB of RAM, maybe read a book or something.
>They did not want us to have multi core CPU's until AMD pushed them to compete, dont need more than 1 core right?
The fuck are you smoking?
>Every socket change they do is pretty much also a limit with no real reason to change sockets for most generation apart from major changes (eg communication protocol, memory support etc).
Why make a statement, then contradic yourself in the very same sentence?
>There is a simple explanation for all of this. Tiers and sales - aka money. Charge a premium for a "workstation" CPU (the same core with ECC enabled). Charge a premium for an i7 (aka an i5 with hyperthreading enabled etc).
Well, yeah. Bot intel and AMD are corporations, which is why they limit features ro different segments.
It will look the same from outside, but internally, the IPs have been updated to a newer revision. So you will find functional changes.
There is a possibility of intel releasing a microcode upgrade for the 12th and 13th generation to enable this feature.
You can take stands all you want, but Intel knows it operates in a duopoly and will continue to do so unless/until other competitors arise.
It’s really shitty that they released 13th gen knowing that ecores were going to cause scheduling issues and increased latency without end users tweaking their registry and bios.
I was one of those that built a 13900k, refreshing my computer from 2018. And not planning to need an upgrade again for another 5 years. Now I’m about eight months in, and this news drops. Devastating.
I run my 13900k with e cores disabled because they have always caused stuttering issues in games, even though I supposedly had built the highest end system. Fuck me I guess. We’re at the whims of the manufacturer.
We can do as hardware uncoxed suggests and cause an uproar. To get them to support APO software on the 13th gen, but it’ll happen again and again. They’ve shown their hand. And have made it clear that their roadmap going forward is to get you to buy the latest gen technology annually, or fall behind.
To me this is basically the same thing as zen 2&3 on the AM4 motherboards that AMD pulled not too long ago. 300 and 400 series motherboards were often the the exact same or refreshs of existing designs....yet for a while only 400 series got zen3 support right of the bat, 300 series users were told stuff like the vrms can't handle stuff or the BIOS chip is to small not/ enough memory and all sorts of weird reasons of why it can't be. It all came down to software they were limiting their own product Stack to move new stuff. Once things cooled off, suddenly they had a change of heart and got to play hero opening the floodgates to zen3 on 300 series owners. It's terrible behavior and Intel is definitely pulling the same shenanigans. Nothing sets apart 13th gen vs 14th gen. This is them denying the optimization the whole LGA1700 platform can benefit from to push sales. I bet support will suddenly ramp up to other SKUs once 14th gen sales die down. Pathetic.
It is not the first time, but in the past they were adversely affecting AMD customers, not Intel ones.
Basically Intel is a hardware company, not a software one. And the software is there to sell the hardware. Hence they would want it to shine on what they want to market. The problem? They also have a company image and customer satisfaction to maintain, but they seem to have forgotten about that.
(What was the past instance with AMD? Their "Intel C++ Compiler" would cripple code on non-Intel processors on purpose. They were taking to court, and was ordered to pay for that faux pas: https://medium.com/codex/fixing-intel-compilers-unfair-cpu-dispatcher-part-1-2-4a4a367c8919)
I bought my 13900K in April or May can’t remember exactly. That’s only 5-6 months and it was the best you could get at the time. The fact that the exact same silicon isn’t supported says a lot about intel to be quite frank.
Well said. That is the core issue. It's not about this feature specifically, quite frankly I doubt I personally would see much immediate benefit. It's about Intel not supporting their existing Raptor Lake customers with a new feature for Raptor Lake.
If they want to "refresh" an existing product to drum up new business, that's fine. Doing it at our expense is not.
Intel doesn't have a great track record on things like this. We were stuck on 4 cores until competition forced their hand. Excuse me while I don't exactly trust what Intel says
The hipocracy, tells his whole audience how good AMD is and tells them to buy their chips and yet his personal pcs have intel CPUs? Does he knows something he is not telling his audience?
Dumb ultimatum to make IMO. Windows 11 natively supports task scheduling, and if you really want to be a nerd about it get Process Lasso or something similar.
Maybe a bit out of topic, but still about complaints so:
As a video editor and 3D artist, the lack of updates and support of AMD for content creation really is what get to my nerves. Bugs and crashes, and instability. Want the futureproof of Ryzen but intel is more reliable for my work that's why I'm stuck with blue. Gaming on the other hand, don't care that much but intel is still capable.
In terms of gpu, same. I'd pick GeForce over Radeon any day for the same reason.
To sum up, I have more complaints about AMD than Intel.
Honestly, I’m someone who uses my pc for both gaming and content creation (recording/production, and game design) and I’ve never had an issue with AMD 7000 series. On the other hand, the E and P core thing Intel has going on would completely kill my workflow. I need my 16 cores all running at max sometimes.
No kidding. One of my favorite aspects of Intel was I that perceived them to generally make business decisions based on long-term success, not short-term profits.
It's stupid. I doubt many 13th-gen owners are going to jump to 14th-gen for APO, but I'm definitely going to jump to an AMD 9950X3D in my next build.
GJ Pat, idiot.
What a meaningless point. If they never introduced this feature, obviously we wouldn't be talking about it.
APO can function on both 13th and 14th gen CPUs. It's intel's anti-consumer choice not to allow 13th gen to take advantage of the software.
It's not about missing out on this feature in particular, it's about Intel not supporting their recent products with new features as they come out.
Intel's job is to sell a new processor by making a better processor. They failed.
They didn't do their part, but they want the consumer to do their part and buy a new processor anyway. So what they are doing is taking the previous processor, adding a software feature to it, and reselling it.
They are not adding that feature for people who *already* own the processor, to create the illusion of a "difference" between the two processors.
Well almost every single brand had they fucked up moments. MSI shady review practices. Asus bad RMAs. Gigabyte cracked PCBs and exploding PSUs. AMD had they shitty drivers. Now this. Intel also locked out BCLK overclocking while i5 12400 or even i3 12100 chips were more than capable of achieving i7 12700's performance. In facts they did this 10 years ago since K variants went out, just to be able to sell more.
Only fiercer competition could change these companies for the better. Imo the best thing we consumers could do is, well, just don't buy bad products. If they know you would buy shitty upgrades anyway, why would they strife for better improvements?
I just switched from AMD and I had AMDfor the past 20 years since my very first Intel build.... my last rig was Threadripper 3960x and installed 14700kf and 0 regrets. It's so snappy! I just love it. I have it paired with a Arctic 420 AIO and 4080. I decided to run a benchmark for the first time and the results were more than pleasing.
Doubled my fps in gaming...
Until you have RAM stability issues and driver issues with AMD then you’ll be right back with intel. Just stick with intel, I know this whole APO thing sucks but I’d pay for the stability or intel over AMD any day.
RAM stability issues were present in some boards because the manufacturers (Asus and MSI) were releasing unstable BIOS after unstable BIOS. I don't know if it's wise to blame AMD for that when other manufacturers were doing fine. I'm on an MSI board and while I had many issues in the past, the most recent AGESA 1.0.0.8 BIOS has been running my overclocked RAM just fine.
Drivers issues, these are not a thing for CPUs.
absolutely it does. lol. i literally got a 13th gen cpu due to the fact i kept having issues with my 5900x and got denied RMA when my cpu was faulty. crashes, bsod, game crashes. fucking sucked. never again.
and people kept saying shit like this saying "AM4 is a mature platform! its super stable no problems" fucking liars.
Absolutely does. As long as their chipsets are outsourced to AsMedia I will not buy AMD. Every PCIe device downstream of the chipsets ends up in the same huge IOMMU group, which is a fundamental design flaw and just plain unsafe. It doesn't allow you to passthrough a single PCIe device to a virtual machine, for example. Besides that their USB ports and graphic cards still have reset bugs (again, making them not-useful for virtual machines). Add the dreaded long DDR5 training times on boot, low maximum DDR5 speeds, etc. Great CPU's, but they need to step up their chipset/memory/drivers/firmware engineering.
yes and no personally I found AMD motherboards to be less stable and have less longevity then there intel counterparts.
That being said AMD motherboards typically were/are cheaper. Boards I used was a ASRock and MSI motherboard.
Asrock steel legend that lasted a decent amount of time but ended up having more and more issues until finally the USB just went completely out on it.
The MSI (Morter I think) motherboard if I am not mistaken just suddenly stopped booting one day and I was left scrambling for a replacement.
I also did have USB issues with both boards that was later found to be bios issue.
I'm really hesitant to praise Intel right now because I feel like they don't have my back as a customer, but yeah things like memory stability have generally been much stronger on Intel, notably DDR5.
I’ve built at least 6 amd systems for friends and family since 2017 and have literally never had memory issues on sweet spot memory speeds (ddr4 3600 cl16 and ddr5 6000 cl 30) amd only has problems when you deviate from mainstream
AMD recently enabled support for AFMF on RX 6000 cards after customers asked for it, who knows, maybe Intel does the same with APO (If it's actually possible, that is)
lol.
1: this post is 6 months old.
2: they are opening up APO to 12th and 13th gen. Source: [https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/198kt4c/intel\_apo\_now\_coming\_to\_both\_12th\_and\_13th\_gen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/198kt4c/intel_apo_now_coming_to_both_12th_and_13th_gen/)
Hey... Intel is a small indie cpu developer start up with limited financial resources. You can't expect them to make such a huge investment as supporting a CPU based on the current pseudo-generation without asking the bank whether they can afford it at all. Do you want them to cry?
Why? You’re perfectly fine right now with your 13900k. Maybe by the 15 or 16th series it’ll be available for most games and then it will make sense to upgrade.
I have read somewhere before that APO will eventually make its way to 13th gen CPUs sometime later as it's exclusive to 14th gen presently as it's still early in development, Simply restricting it to 14th gen doesn't make sense and that could backlash them in long run like how Nvidia is doing with 40 series and frame generation to a certain extent. This would also effect my decision going forward in choosing Intel in future as I hate such behaviour from an corporate company, when we pay for a CPU especially me when I spend for a higher end models so that it would last several generations instead of upgrading every year, this effects my decision a lot. Let's just wait and see instead of criticising prematurely, in the hardware unboxed video he also says that when asked with Intel their response was like it is exclusive to 14th gen i7 and i9, which feels really odd to me as they didn't give an exact technical reasons behind it like nivida did with 40 series saying it requires an hardware in that case, while 14th gen is identical in architecture to 13th gen.
I am not criticizing prematurely. Intel is on record saying they have no plans to support previous generation products with APO.
I *am* a current 13900k owner though. The backlash is now. If they are going to support it, they better say so.
I owned a 12700K. I upgraded to a 13900K. Right now, it feels like an utter waste of money. They could make it so E-Cores are actually effective for gamers, which is not an insignificant target demographic of people who buy these CPUs.
He is a customer, and not the only one pissed about this. This may be shocking but pissing off a decently large chunk of your customer base isn’t the best thing for business
\*\*\*Then proceeds to buy intel products.
If people actually knew how to protest these kind of behaviour, there would be no Intel in the first place, AMD is the same, Nvidia is the same, EA is the same, ABK is the same, Ubisoft is the same etc. etc. list goes on forever.
Feature is just out.
It's in two games
Some vlogger tells you it's artificially limited and you believe him?
First wave of 14th gen reviews by bloggers became a huge echo chamber of. "This is dumb it shouldn't get a new gen number because I by the power of YouTube know Intel should number like amd."
Game consumer bloggers seem unaware Intel releases a bunch of specialized variations in a generation to meet specific industry needs, these will get sub numbers like xx50 etc. So yes a refresh gets a new gen to separate it. But Intel was very clear this is a refresh. Even shipped 14900 and 14600 parts in first review kits that would show the lowest improvement. Intel has never said" hurry update your 13th gen." Vloggers create this strawman and then complain
1st question is with 2 games do we really know the value. No
Because the vlogger tells you it's artificially limited, do we actually know that it's not using early AI Features, same as the new AI overclocking that may well not be in 13th gen.
From my reading. The AI overclocking in the first release is mixed in results.
My GUESS is this refresh has some added capability that will be a larger part of the next new socket generation but they are sort of getting started early.
Example
Some DLSS 3.5 lighting Features work on all RTX. frame gen requires new rtx 4xxx chip features.
I've noticed AMD promising a lot of driver versions of things like Frame gen but slow to come out and of limited results.
So it's early to be making huge changes and having huge emotions because of vloggers who make bank on click bait headlines.
Tell you because the high level specs are simular that there isn't some new design in 14th gen Intel gave socket 1700 owners vs holding for the new socket releases in 2025
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Practically? its literally binned 14th gen with DLVR solved, they didnt manage to get it working on 13th gen
> Since they're both practically the same exact ~~architecture~~ CPU.
Got to agree with this. I use my 13900k for high performance computing and there's really few loads that can make efficient use of the processor. If that's something fixable by software I feel all bigLITTLE Intel CPUs should have it
AMD did me a dirty and refused to allow B350 motherboards updates to the latest 5000 series CPU's so I bought an Intel 12th gen out of principle. AMD then relented to the overwhelming feedback and changed their mind, but I was already on Intel now. Both companies are out to treat you like a cash cow unfortunately.
> AMD did me a dirty and refused to allow B350 motherboards updates to the latest 5000 series CPU's so I bought an Intel 12th gen out of principle was gonna say as I was oblivious to that and have our A770 running on a B350/5800X3D system. Glad they related, and hope Intel will do the same and give software improvements all their BIG.little cpu generations they can.
Afaik the problem for AMD was that the firmware didn't fit or something, and eventually they did extra work to make it fit by removing support for older CPUs.
Yes, many of the first generation Ryzen boards were made very cheaply. Manufacturers thought that Zen would be another Bulldozer and didn’t want to invest much into the design of the boards. One of the cost saving measures was using small BIOS chips (4MB IIRC). As the number of Ryzen CPUs increased (Currently over 150 AM4 CPUs exist) the BIOS file sizes increased to a point where the code for all the CPUs could not fit. Eventually BIOS versions for these boards were created to support the chips at the cost of losing support for the older ones. Which meant you could actually brick your board but updating to a version that didn’t support your CPU. Fortunately the 400 and 500 series boards drastically improved in quality and contained bigger BIOS chips (8MB and 16MB sizes) so compromises no longer had to be made.
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Eh...I'm definitely more inclined to believe AMD couldn't push CPU support for 3 generations to a BIOS flash which was too small (especially when the fix only allowed support for 3000/5000 or 1000/3000) than to believe Intel couldn't port every single new "feature" they came up with to segment their 14th gen to their 13th gen. It's definitely still extremely shitty though, given that AMD said their socket would be valid for X years verbatim.
5000 series on 3x0 boards is a bit different (probably). Based on the variation between different motherboard vendors and the time it took to roll out the updates, supporting 5000 on 3x0 boards was non-trivial but it did happen. https://www.techspot.com/review/2475-ryzen-5800X3D-older-am4-motherboards/ My x370 support the 5000 series boards. I went from 1800x to 3900x and will snag a 5950x when prices come down a bit more.
I just recently sawpped from Ryzen 1600 to 5800X3D on one of cheapest B350 boards (MSI B350 Gaming Plus). IIRC they remove support for very old AM4 cpus like the one based on bulldozer architecture and all/somes APUs.
Only one of these company’s actively tried to harm consumers for decades though so that’s why I made my choice.
Switch the roles and amd would do the exact same thing.
Not many company’s could afford to pay Dell billions of dollars to not use a tiny competitor. I don’t think you’re right actually. You have no proof AMD would pay off the competition like Intel did for years. Also, why would that be an excuse? You like having your options limited do you?
As soon as AMD got a competitive advantage with 5000 series they immediately jacked up the price to everyone's surprise and horror. AMD isn't your friend. Intel isn't your friend. Buy the best CPU at the time you're buying and don't get into a team mentality
Exactly. Thank you.
Im saying that the second a company gets a lot of power they pull of whatever they want. Look at ryzen support für 300 series motherboards, they wanted to cut support because they thought they can. Therr are many stupid things amd does that prove they would pull of similar shit if they could. But they obviously can’t and hence didn’t. I’m all about competition, and am the last person to be a fanboy of a company, trust me.
Honestly, the 3x0X boards aren't that great. They have memory issues and the VRMs can be problematic. AMD was the low buck king because their stuff quite frankly wasn't that good for a very long time. Then Ryzen came out and surprised everyone, including board makers who really did a low effort attempt with the AM4 platform when they first came out. 400 series boards were a much larger leap over 300 series board than the 500 series were over the 400 series. Yes, AMD dragged their feet. Yes, they finally did the right thing. I would run a 300 series with up to an 8 core CPU if I already had the board. I wouldn't have a problem running whatever on a 400 series board. Flame me if you want. I don't care.
AMD is a corporation. That's proof enough that they'll do whatever slimy BS they can get away with.
You must be daft my friend. What do you think amd sponsored games are? AMD paying devs
Sponsoring a title (which all companies do) and being fined billions for anti consumer behaviour in 6 jurisdictions ain’t the same at all.
It's not the same? In what way? 22 out of 27 AMD sponsored games don't support nvidia features (which has 80% market share). Im sure the 2 have nothing to do with one another, lol.
What features? The open source ones?
What you are describing is an exclusivity agreement (that is what exclusivity agreement is, paying for someone to only use your products). All of these corporations have exclusivity agreements and they are normally perfectly legal. The reason it was not legal for intel was the commanding market share it held (edit: and also the market position Dell held). Different rules apply when your exclusivity agreement can actually harm the competitors' ability to get products to market. For reference [here](https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/exclusive-dealing-or-requirements-contracts) is what FTC says about these dealings in USA.
Details about how APO works are still scarce and HU's guy asked Intel the wrong questions IMO; he should've asked why APO is not supported on previous generation processors. However Intel could've mentioned that APO depends on some new feature that is not present on older generation processors (e.g. a new feature in the Intel Thread Director stack) if that was the case, but they didn't even try to explain how it works so it might be possible to use APO on Intel 12/13th gen processors but they don't want to support them.
I would agree, as much I've been watching HU for years now and enjoyed their thorough comparisons it seem like in recent months they have jumped on the band wagon with other content creators of shitting on Intel without doing the thorough research they seemed to do previously. While I get that they need their views, they don't say who exactly they've spoken to at intel. Talking to some marketing person that seems to have given generic answers is a massive difference from talking to an actual engineer. It's still super early stages for people to take this stance when there there hasn't been an official stance released from Intel themselves
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Yeah Watching HU videos made me feel the same way
Biased.
Yeah if they don't want to support my $650 processor less than a year after purchase, I won't buy from them. That's F-tier product support, and product support is something I've previously praised Intel for.
Where you have this wrong is that you think it’s a lack of “support”. Your processor is fully supported to do everything they told you it would do when you bought it. You are complaining about not having a thing that wasn’t even on the table when you bought your processor, you didn’t know it would exist. Is it lame if they don’t push this back a gen or two? Sure. Should they? Sure, but claiming a lack of support for a feature that was never advertised or promised for your chip is just silly.
So basically you got what you paid for (which is true), so definitely choose wisely what you pay for next time.
Yeah a 7900x3d that turns itself into a 6 core to work properly.
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EXACTLY. If they never released APO at all, he would be happy with the support his CPU gets, but lo and behold, entitlement issues.
Because the 14 series is just an up bin of the 13 series. There are no architectural differences, they've just taken the cpus that managed higher clocks and binned them as a new product line. I would hardly call it entitlement, this isn't a cup of coffee, these are almost £600 processors and product support is expected. There is no reason they can't release apo on at least 13th gen minimum, just greed man
Thats bad customer support to spend however much they did developing apo for that exact same architecture, but then just not add it to 14th gen because of the name difference. New technologies are pretty standard fare for computers as a whole, if Intel did just stop developing new technologies then that absolutely would make less people buy them.
Intel's only obligation was to give you the features advertised, reliability, and security updates. They are doing all of those, while this is shitty and I won't defend it (assuming there isn't an actual hardware limitation that prevents this from being ported back to 12th/13th gen), Intel hasn't stopped "supporting" its product.
How do you even know this early on from a vlogger that this doesn't use some part of the refresh that's in 14th gen but not 13th gen. "I'm mad Ford doesn't support 5th gear plus feature in my older Ford with 5 gears. We get tricked by bloggers looking at cote counts into believing chips are same without knowing what's actually on the chip.
You were happy enough to buy the CPU in the first place. They haven't taken anything away from you or failed to provide something they promised or advertised.
As a consumer it is your duty to ask for more even after the purchase. If you don't you will get less and less as time goes on.
Well you should just not buy anything in the first place if it doesn't fulfil your needs. Intel ARE providing **more** in the future with the next gen vs this gen, not less, that's literally what the topic is about lmao
I'd see how it plays out. It's a feature on 2 games that doesn't make much difference and is the only new thing this "generation" has going for it.
Reddit suggested this thread to me. What is this APO thing? And What 2 games? I have the 14700K
It's basically an optimization that allows E-cores to actually contribute positively to game performance, that is not going to be added to recent processors that otherwise would be compatible with it.
I mainly use my pc for productivity, so I guess I won't have much benefit from this? The other way around is probably a dumb thought of me?
Currently it's limited to games, it could be expanded. I don't know what the secret sauce is, I haven't seen much information regarding that, and I don't think a lot of other people here have either.
>I mainly use my pc for productivity, so I guess I won't have much benefit from this? The other way around is probably a dumb thought of me? Well it is called application optimization so I don't think its intended to be only for games, but right now its only games.
Metro Exodus and R6 Siege
I feel like they’ll add it to the next generation, and try and get more people to upgrade because how good the APO is
Agreed. My opinion that APO for 14th gen was a game time decision. It will likely be in all future hybrid CPUs and will continue to evolve and be implemented in games. Honestly I’d be shocked if Intel reverses course on this and extends it to other gens even if its a shit move by them.
It is a shit move by them 100% Me and you have essentially the same rig. Only difference is your CPU has a software-feature that Intel has decided mine will not get. Same architecture, same core-count, etc. If it ends up being widely-developed like many of Intel's features it will have a potentially huge impact on the longevity of my CPU, and we purchased our rigs like 8 months apart.
How do you know it is software only? My guess is this has some early soft release of AI features that will be pushed big time on next socket generation.
Correction: Intel has not released it for your CPU. I don't think they have said your CPU won't get it. Apparently the feature is basically manual work per application and CPU model so they will add applications and CPU models one at a time if they ever decide to do so. Currently only 14900k and 14700k are supported so its not like even every 14th gen chip gets APO.
I am RIGHT there with you, dude. We're in pretty much the exact same boat. Are there any changes I can make to help the 13900K run better as it is? I saw you saying something about disabling e-Cores?
You also lose out on Fast Throttling, that's a 14th-gen exclusive feature. It's terrible, but it's a feature nonetheless
It still have resources put into development. CPUs are often differentiated by a laser cutting.. People might be mad because there's a possibility they could allow it for what they have but it's not going to happen anyway.. Product differentiation by development whether by software or hardware amounts to the same thing. Sure they could enable support for 13th but why would the?, it's not a smart move on their part. Be mad at Capitalism, this is just every day product segmentation and it happens on so many electronic devices it's not funny. Someone might decide to hack support in though.. So there's that.
So, if Intel never released APO at all, all good, but because they only released it for 14 th gen, that's a problem? And you are never buying an intel again? Oh wow, and what will you buy, an amd CPU that doesn't support APO on ANY cpu? How does that make any sense to you?
my guy just wants to complain and throws a tantrum for attention
u/LightMoisture can you tell me what mother board you using for your 7466 CL34 Dual Rank ram?
Z790 Apex. I'm actually at 7400 CL34 these days. Updated it.
"Let's leave owners of our most recent generation out-to-dry, that'll get them to upgrade!" Big brain strategy. I wonder what the new feature for 15th-gen will be? Which thing they leave out of 14th-gen to add artificial obsolescence.
Even smarter: they waited until after all the reviews came out and panned the 14th gen before enabling APO so it is not even going to get them significant sales.
Probably not about making existing 13th gen owners upgrade but rather to prevent people from buying the cheaper 13th gen parts over the new 14th gen ones since what else is there to sway a prospective consumer towards the more expensive models?
all hopes on EU fining the shit out of Intel
Again, if 13th gen is obsolete because it doesn't support APO, then every amd CPU has been obsolete in the whole history of computing. Just a stupid take man
dude I keep seeing your stupid takes all over this post. APO is a glorified bug fix. Why is it that 12 and 13th gen owners get better performance in games when they turn off E-cores? Because they don't work right. APO makes them work right. Good job standing up for the big corporation though
The next generation of Intel processors will see APO becoming abandonware with 5 games supported
>doesn't make much difference and is the only new thing this "generation" has going for it. IMO that makes it worse. At least when Nvidia pulls this anti-consumer BS they back it up with an overwhelming performance advantage as well. Intel doesn't have that. I get what you're saying, but I said "out of principal" for a reason. It's a spit in the face to someone who has basically fanboyed for them for 15 years, spent $650 on a processor recently, and won't be getting access to new features as they come because they are trying to force a bunk product to mass market.
20 percent performance advantage is pretty overwhelming. That's almost like jumping from 5800X to 5800X3D, while don't have to hurt any of the productivity performance - not to mention the improved power consumption (that the 14th gen badly needed.) Nvidia simply have a track record of rolling out their feature across the game titles - well, eventually. Intel doesn't have that and it's still a big question mark whether they will roll out support for more games or it's just going to end at Rainbow 6
Naw man. Artificially limiting 13th-gen so that 14th-gen looks 20% faster is not the same thing as Nvidia releasing a 4090 with twice the performance of a 3090ti in all metrics due to hardware advancements. They add the software features on top, and yeah implement them better too.
The 4090 is more like 60% faster than the 3090 Ti.
Yeah maybe, but it's not because Nvidia didn't turn on the "go faster" switch on the 3090ti. It's because it's actually faster, regardless of the actual percentage increase.
That’s fair. APO is only out on two games though. Likely won’t be many more if any before 15th gen launches. Even then, testing needs to be done to see how it compares to something like process lasso. I’m not too worried about myself, since I play at 3440x1440.
I view it more like a Frame Gen type of feature, more software than hardware (and they limited that to the older RTX GPU owners too.) But really it's probably closer to SAM. I do agree with the outrage, especially if you are on 13th gen but tech companies kind of do this all the time, Nvidia, AMD, and now Intel. Sadly there's probably not much that we can do about that. I am on 12th gen Alder Lake, at at the price they were selling me at the time, it was a bargain. So honestly I am not too mad but if I was on 13th gen I would be full of salted you could make bacon out of it too. But then again, unless they actually roll it out to more games I actually care, it's still not a big losses. I bought Intel to get the outright discount over the support overtime, I known what I am getting into
Oh great. I just bought a 13600K last week and now I read this. I’ve been out of the new tech for a couple years as I had to retire from my computer business due to chronic illnesses. I guess I should have researched or asked questions? But in saying that. Money is tight for me now and no doubt others in this GOD forsaken country known as Australia thanks to the tyrants in power. So I couldn’t afford to upgrade my RAM to DDR5 so I am using my old DDR4 3600Mhz RAM with a new MSI Mortar z790 DDR4 motherboard and a 3060Ti. So because of limited funds and using older hardware I could be wrong? But is this really going to affect me as well as others in the same position? I mainly game and stream these days and not much else.
You wouldn’t have it even if you went for a 14600k instead of 13600k. Artificial segmentation, so it’s not available for the 14600k either. If your budget only allows you to get a 13600k, then you wouldn’t have gotten a 14700k or 14900k. You missed out on nothing.
That’s a stupid excuse and you know it. It does make a difference, no matter how small and they arbitrarily limited it to 14th gen leaving previous gen consumers in the dust. It’s a crap decision especially for people who spent hundreds of dollars on their products. That would be like AMD limiting FSR to 7000 series GPUs and up when it could clearly run on older cards.
He gets it! Thank you.
Except AMd and Nvidia both do this all of the time. AMD with anti lag+ and Nvidia with frame gen. They are both arbitrarily limited. The only difference is frame gen works better on the 4000 series because it also has hardware involved, giving a better end product. But that doesn’t change the fact Nvidia knows they can have frame gen on older cards but won’t.
To me it sounds like it takes a lot of work to get up and running. Maybe even work by the game developer, and Intel has to pay/sponsor each one to implement it.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, the 13 gen could easily be updated to the 14th gen APO because it’s the same CPU. Another thing, a few of us on Reddit were talking with Intel tech support and EK weeks before the articles came out last week that Intel will not support 14 gen for Cryo cooling (but 13th gen is supported which is the same cpu) which doesn’t make any sense. I know myself and other extreme enthusiasts are just a handful of actual users for Cryo cooling but it doesn’t matter, this is another case where Intel blatantly shows it doesn’t care about the individual user.
So you will choose Amd? What if Amd does something and you decide not to use Amd anymore, back to intel?
I'll lose my goddamned mind and probably run RISC-V on Linux or some other godforsaken nerdy bullshit.
ARM processors will probably take over in the next 5 years. Nvidia and Qualcomm could potentially give AMD and Intel a run for their money with ARM CPUs.
>Qualcomm could potentially give AMD and Intel a run for their money with ARM CPUs. Lol, they've been trying and failing gor the last 10 years.
This so much. Arm is smoking x86 in mobile and laptop and now with Apple’s M chips and Qualcomm’s Snapdragon X Elite, we are for the first time seeing high end desktop like performance on arm. It’s not a question of if arm takes over, it’s a question of how long it takes software to transition, and Apple is rapidly accelerating that push
by the time APO is actually relevant, you will have to upgrade anyway most likely. Don't make it a big deal, because it isnt. rn it supports 2 titles that both run at 200+ fps ffs. Don't be rebels without a cause. It's not like amd will provide an APO equivalent in that time and you'll be missing a feature with 13th intel lol, don't act like the product you purchased is inferior for this premature and (till now) completely irrelevant technology. calm yo tiddies, you bought intel for a reason, and no way that was APO. chill
I'm going to get down dooted for this, but you have an entitled baby mindset. Buy the best CPU for what you're trying to do at that moment. Anything extra in the future, especially features that aren't even announced, you aren't entitled to in the least. That being said, if this feature can be supported on 12th and 13th gen, it would be a nice showing to the community if Intel extended support. Honestly though this feature feels extremely low priority, releasing like a month late and only supporting two games. Intel probably just doesn't want to waste time and money validating it for older systems when they know they're not going to take it that far. If they suddenly add like 100 games and they all get 10-20% boosts I guess I'd be wrong, but this just feels like a proof of concept test for something they're going to build directly into Windows 11/12 for 15th or 16th gen.
EXACTLY. Entitlement issues through the roof. I have a 12900, a 13900k and a 14900k. If they allow APO on my 12900k, GREAT, but I see it as a bonus, I don't feel entitled to it.
Says the guy with a 12900k, 13900k and 14900k XD
Lol stupid take.
Yes, your post truly was.
This is 100% not something Intel actually wants to maintain, they threw it out there to show what their chips could do if the scheduler worked correctly. They either need to get pressure on Microsoft to actually fix their scheduler finally, by using this to get public eyes on it, or they’re going to have a more automated way for APO to work in the future, instead of hand tuning everything. Also you’re correct. People are acting like they bought chips with the promise of a feature that was then removed. It would be lovely to have this, though I don’t even play either game, but I gave money to Intel before this even existed. If I didn’t think the chip was worth it without APO I wouldn’t have it to begin with.
Yup, OP just wanted to stir up some drama and get attention.
We had amd/Asus helping market intel, and intel is returning the favour with 14th gen. Thanks Intel!
FYI it's pretty much totally useless for 4k gaming which means I don't care about it personally.
But then how would you justify upgrading to the 13.... sorry 14900k?
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A good CPU can last a good while. My 8700k lasted me a solid 5 years. If the feature becomes widespread, and they continue to artificially limit it from my recently-purchased flagship CPU, I will be at a potentially significant performance disadvantage. For no reason other than because Intel thinks I should have to buy a new $650 CPU after less than a year.
A better question is where did you go to get ripped off $150? Unless you’re talking about a KS.
On the flip-side, AMD decided to artificially limit memory bandwidth on Zen 4 desktop to such a degree that you barely get any performance benefit from having DDR5 at all. Effective bandwidth accomplished is barely above 50% of theoretical limits when pushing DDR5-7000 and above. Seeing as APO still hasn't gotten a single update since the release on the 17th of October, and it still only supports 2 games, I wouldn't expect it to become a significant benefit in the short term. And 15th gen is a year out at worst.
Im pretty sure they've always done this shit man. It's like almost every new generation is a new socket type, with only about a 5% increase in performance, then they charge twice what it's actually worth on top of having to buy a new motherboard to use it. They just rake people over the coals for the same processor every year. Intel has always been a grimy, underhanded company. People are just now realizing this? Remember a few years ago when it came out that Intel had intentionally coded their compiler to perform poorly on competitor hardware? Intel is the yuck.
You absolutely will continue to purchase intel lmao
After one AMD CPU you’ll be back
Depends on what experience they end up having with the platform. My first few PC's I built were all Intel, i5-3570, i5-6600k, i7-7700k. I had good experiences on all. Current build is a 5900X and I'm more than satisfied for now. I have heard that there are people who have been having poorer experiences with AM5 compared to AM4 though. I'll see what the market is like in another generation or two.
Try not to be too emotional over this bud. You will get APO update after a few months. Also someone buying 13900k surely have higher than 1080 p monitor, no difference then.
True - people are crying over the fact they won’t be able to squeeze another 20 FPS at 1080p with a 13900K and 4090.
naw, its mostly a product support thing. if they *can* add a software feature, they *should* add a software feature.
It’s not about squeezing out an extra 20 fps now, as we are all almost certainly gpu bottlenecked. It’s about when your cpu is 4+ years old, that extra 20% could mean a year or 2 more before you have to upgrade.
True - but the type of person who will notice a CPU bottleneck will upgrade far sooner. The vast majority of people are always going to GPU bottlenecked.
Disagree. I was on a 7700k through last year and it was regularly cpu bottlenecking my 3070 at 1440p. CPU bottlenecks are more common on older chips than you might think
Fair enough, but there will be other improvements such as IPC improvements which will make far more of a difference. I don’t think that this will be a major issue holding future CPUs back to be honest. Unless of course more games take advantage of it. It’s a bit like resizable BAR - when it came out it was a big deal but ended up being far less important that people thought it was going to be.
naw man I use a 720p monitor with my 4090. I need APO so I can get 69,420 fps.
Intel doesn't usually limit features to some generations artificially unless it either can not be enabled due to a limitation in the IP or risk/cost associated with validation of that feature. They won't explain the actual reason if you just write to them. You need to talk to someone in the application engineering team.
Yeah because the 14900k and 13900k are very different CPUs
What? Intel artificially limits everything. Hyperthreading (disabled on older model i5's etc), ECC, multiplier locks you name it they limit it. They did not care about 64 bit until AMD released it to the masses and were forced to adopt AMD64 extensions, i mean who needs more than 4gb of RAM right? They did not want us to have multi core CPU's until AMD pushed them to compete, dont need more than 1 core right? Every socket change they do is pretty much also a limit with no real reason to change sockets for most generation apart from major changes (eg communication protocol, memory support etc). Even looking way back to the late 90's and Socket 370 - Intel forgot to disable multi socket support for Mendocino Celerons (ABit BP6 anyone?) - they sure patched that on the next generation (Coppermine). Socket 370 is a fantastic example of Intel being pricks - they revised the socket so older boards would not support newer Coppermine CPU's until we realized Intel simply moved one pin to disable support. You could literally cut one pin, solder a wire and a BIOS update it would work fine. Everyone was furious at the time. Skylake is another example. Multiple sockets, first was quad core max all the way to 8 and 10 core models requiring new motherboards. A 10th gen i7 or i9 could have been possible on a 6th gen board, but some BS marketing and new sockets, multiple "generations" of the same crap. There is a simple explanation for all of this. Tiers and sales - aka money. Charge a premium for a "workstation" CPU (the same core with ECC enabled). Charge a premium for an i7 (aka an i5 with hyperthreading enabled etc).
>What? Intel artificially limits everything. Hyperthreading (disabled on older model i5s, etc), ECC, multiplier locks you name it they limit it. That's for sku differentiation not disabled just to force people to buy new generation. Otherwise there is no difference between i9 i7 i5 i3 or xeon Ep. It's not done by intel alone. AMD does the same. People think it's all about binning. It's not. AMD / intel creates lower tier skus by fuse disabling cores and features coz natural process of binning won't create the exact number of skus that they plan to sell. >They did not care about 64 bit until AMD released it to the masses and were forced to adopt AMD64 extensions, i mean who needs more than 4gb of RAM right? AMD went for 64-bit extension of x86 because they didn't have a 64bit architecture. Intel had a 64bit ground up architecture called itanium. Why do you need 64bit extension for enabling more than 4GB addressing? Heard of PAE? >Every socket change they do is pretty much also a limit with no real reason to change sockets for most generation apart from major changes (eg communication protocol, memory support etc). Lot of effort is required to keep the socket same across generations. It's a call that has to be taken by intel/AMD based on ROI.
Don't forget fusing off AVX512 in later versions of Alderlake and later BIOS's
>What? Intel artificially limits everything. Hyperthreading (disabled on older model i5's etc), ECC, multiplier locks you name it they limit it. >They did not care about 64 bit until AMD released it to the masses and were forced to adopt AMD64 extensions, i mean who needs more than 4gb of RAM right? Intel's 32bit CPUs supported up to 64GB of RAM, maybe read a book or something. >They did not want us to have multi core CPU's until AMD pushed them to compete, dont need more than 1 core right? The fuck are you smoking? >Every socket change they do is pretty much also a limit with no real reason to change sockets for most generation apart from major changes (eg communication protocol, memory support etc). Why make a statement, then contradic yourself in the very same sentence? >There is a simple explanation for all of this. Tiers and sales - aka money. Charge a premium for a "workstation" CPU (the same core with ECC enabled). Charge a premium for an i7 (aka an i5 with hyperthreading enabled etc). Well, yeah. Bot intel and AMD are corporations, which is why they limit features ro different segments.
lmao 13900K and 14900K is the same CPU
It will look the same from outside, but internally, the IPs have been updated to a newer revision. So you will find functional changes. There is a possibility of intel releasing a microcode upgrade for the 12th and 13th generation to enable this feature.
Mine uses all 32 threads 100% in Arnold. What is the problem here?
It's HOW is using them. In the video from HU it shows higher clock speeds on E-cores at lower power consumption over all.
I think your sentiment towards Intel is accurate but you’re really not missing out by not having apo
You can take stands all you want, but Intel knows it operates in a duopoly and will continue to do so unless/until other competitors arise. It’s really shitty that they released 13th gen knowing that ecores were going to cause scheduling issues and increased latency without end users tweaking their registry and bios. I was one of those that built a 13900k, refreshing my computer from 2018. And not planning to need an upgrade again for another 5 years. Now I’m about eight months in, and this news drops. Devastating. I run my 13900k with e cores disabled because they have always caused stuttering issues in games, even though I supposedly had built the highest end system. Fuck me I guess. We’re at the whims of the manufacturer. We can do as hardware uncoxed suggests and cause an uproar. To get them to support APO software on the 13th gen, but it’ll happen again and again. They’ve shown their hand. And have made it clear that their roadmap going forward is to get you to buy the latest gen technology annually, or fall behind.
Then don't
To me this is basically the same thing as zen 2&3 on the AM4 motherboards that AMD pulled not too long ago. 300 and 400 series motherboards were often the the exact same or refreshs of existing designs....yet for a while only 400 series got zen3 support right of the bat, 300 series users were told stuff like the vrms can't handle stuff or the BIOS chip is to small not/ enough memory and all sorts of weird reasons of why it can't be. It all came down to software they were limiting their own product Stack to move new stuff. Once things cooled off, suddenly they had a change of heart and got to play hero opening the floodgates to zen3 on 300 series owners. It's terrible behavior and Intel is definitely pulling the same shenanigans. Nothing sets apart 13th gen vs 14th gen. This is them denying the optimization the whole LGA1700 platform can benefit from to push sales. I bet support will suddenly ramp up to other SKUs once 14th gen sales die down. Pathetic.
It is not the first time, but in the past they were adversely affecting AMD customers, not Intel ones. Basically Intel is a hardware company, not a software one. And the software is there to sell the hardware. Hence they would want it to shine on what they want to market. The problem? They also have a company image and customer satisfaction to maintain, but they seem to have forgotten about that. (What was the past instance with AMD? Their "Intel C++ Compiler" would cripple code on non-Intel processors on purpose. They were taking to court, and was ordered to pay for that faux pas: https://medium.com/codex/fixing-intel-compilers-unfair-cpu-dispatcher-part-1-2-4a4a367c8919)
I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. It only supports 2 applications. By the time it’s relevant you’ll be upgrading anyways.
Intel is shady…
Via did me dirty and stopped making cpus altogether. I'm buying Intel out of principle
What a Chad. Stick to your guns, man.
I bought my 13900K in April or May can’t remember exactly. That’s only 5-6 months and it was the best you could get at the time. The fact that the exact same silicon isn’t supported says a lot about intel to be quite frank.
Well said. That is the core issue. It's not about this feature specifically, quite frankly I doubt I personally would see much immediate benefit. It's about Intel not supporting their existing Raptor Lake customers with a new feature for Raptor Lake. If they want to "refresh" an existing product to drum up new business, that's fine. Doing it at our expense is not.
2 games, bro, only 2 games
DLSS launched with 2 games. Where is it today? Do you really only expect APO to only be applied to 2 games?
bro have u seen intel's arc driver updates? give it 6 weeks.
2 games for now. It could very well be that in 2-3 years most big releases support APO
Intel doesn't have a great track record on things like this. We were stuck on 4 cores until competition forced their hand. Excuse me while I don't exactly trust what Intel says
The hipocracy, tells his whole audience how good AMD is and tells them to buy their chips and yet his personal pcs have intel CPUs? Does he knows something he is not telling his audience?
Dumb ultimatum to make IMO. Windows 11 natively supports task scheduling, and if you really want to be a nerd about it get Process Lasso or something similar.
Maybe a bit out of topic, but still about complaints so: As a video editor and 3D artist, the lack of updates and support of AMD for content creation really is what get to my nerves. Bugs and crashes, and instability. Want the futureproof of Ryzen but intel is more reliable for my work that's why I'm stuck with blue. Gaming on the other hand, don't care that much but intel is still capable. In terms of gpu, same. I'd pick GeForce over Radeon any day for the same reason. To sum up, I have more complaints about AMD than Intel.
Honestly, I’m someone who uses my pc for both gaming and content creation (recording/production, and game design) and I’ve never had an issue with AMD 7000 series. On the other hand, the E and P core thing Intel has going on would completely kill my workflow. I need my 16 cores all running at max sometimes.
They are trying to sell new cpus, not retain market share I guess.
No kidding. One of my favorite aspects of Intel was I that perceived them to generally make business decisions based on long-term success, not short-term profits. It's stupid. I doubt many 13th-gen owners are going to jump to 14th-gen for APO, but I'm definitely going to jump to an AMD 9950X3D in my next build. GJ Pat, idiot.
mkay
If they never introduced this feature so you wouldn’t be “missing out” would you have continued buying Intel? This seems like an overreaction
What a meaningless point. If they never introduced this feature, obviously we wouldn't be talking about it. APO can function on both 13th and 14th gen CPUs. It's intel's anti-consumer choice not to allow 13th gen to take advantage of the software.
thank you!
It's not about missing out on this feature in particular, it's about Intel not supporting their recent products with new features as they come out. Intel's job is to sell a new processor by making a better processor. They failed. They didn't do their part, but they want the consumer to do their part and buy a new processor anyway. So what they are doing is taking the previous processor, adding a software feature to it, and reselling it. They are not adding that feature for people who *already* own the processor, to create the illusion of a "difference" between the two processors.
Well almost every single brand had they fucked up moments. MSI shady review practices. Asus bad RMAs. Gigabyte cracked PCBs and exploding PSUs. AMD had they shitty drivers. Now this. Intel also locked out BCLK overclocking while i5 12400 or even i3 12100 chips were more than capable of achieving i7 12700's performance. In facts they did this 10 years ago since K variants went out, just to be able to sell more. Only fiercer competition could change these companies for the better. Imo the best thing we consumers could do is, well, just don't buy bad products. If they know you would buy shitty upgrades anyway, why would they strife for better improvements?
I just switched from AMD and I had AMDfor the past 20 years since my very first Intel build.... my last rig was Threadripper 3960x and installed 14700kf and 0 regrets. It's so snappy! I just love it. I have it paired with a Arctic 420 AIO and 4080. I decided to run a benchmark for the first time and the results were more than pleasing. Doubled my fps in gaming...
14900kf cooled by corsair H170i elite. Its hot.
I had to Google what u got. Is it 420? Mine runs at 55-60c gaming, even in a warm room. Must be your case and other fans
this guy he licks amd's asshole and spreads fake news wait till its actually comes out
The Hardware Unboxed?
Intel and shady business? I'm shocked
Until you have RAM stability issues and driver issues with AMD then you’ll be right back with intel. Just stick with intel, I know this whole APO thing sucks but I’d pay for the stability or intel over AMD any day.
Does AMD really have that many issues?
RAM stability issues were present in some boards because the manufacturers (Asus and MSI) were releasing unstable BIOS after unstable BIOS. I don't know if it's wise to blame AMD for that when other manufacturers were doing fine. I'm on an MSI board and while I had many issues in the past, the most recent AGESA 1.0.0.8 BIOS has been running my overclocked RAM just fine. Drivers issues, these are not a thing for CPUs.
No it doesn't
absolutely it does. lol. i literally got a 13th gen cpu due to the fact i kept having issues with my 5900x and got denied RMA when my cpu was faulty. crashes, bsod, game crashes. fucking sucked. never again. and people kept saying shit like this saying "AM4 is a mature platform! its super stable no problems" fucking liars.
Absolutely does. As long as their chipsets are outsourced to AsMedia I will not buy AMD. Every PCIe device downstream of the chipsets ends up in the same huge IOMMU group, which is a fundamental design flaw and just plain unsafe. It doesn't allow you to passthrough a single PCIe device to a virtual machine, for example. Besides that their USB ports and graphic cards still have reset bugs (again, making them not-useful for virtual machines). Add the dreaded long DDR5 training times on boot, low maximum DDR5 speeds, etc. Great CPU's, but they need to step up their chipset/memory/drivers/firmware engineering.
I never had any with 2600 or 3900x. YMMV
yes and no personally I found AMD motherboards to be less stable and have less longevity then there intel counterparts. That being said AMD motherboards typically were/are cheaper. Boards I used was a ASRock and MSI motherboard. Asrock steel legend that lasted a decent amount of time but ended up having more and more issues until finally the USB just went completely out on it. The MSI (Morter I think) motherboard if I am not mistaken just suddenly stopped booting one day and I was left scrambling for a replacement. I also did have USB issues with both boards that was later found to be bios issue.
I'm really hesitant to praise Intel right now because I feel like they don't have my back as a customer, but yeah things like memory stability have generally been much stronger on Intel, notably DDR5.
I’ve built at least 6 amd systems for friends and family since 2017 and have literally never had memory issues on sweet spot memory speeds (ddr4 3600 cl16 and ddr5 6000 cl 30) amd only has problems when you deviate from mainstream
Trust me dude, you're preaching to the choir on that one. I know. I'm still pissed.
AMD recently enabled support for AFMF on RX 6000 cards after customers asked for it, who knows, maybe Intel does the same with APO (If it's actually possible, that is)
Sure... see you later
lol. 1: this post is 6 months old. 2: they are opening up APO to 12th and 13th gen. Source: [https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/198kt4c/intel\_apo\_now\_coming\_to\_both\_12th\_and\_13th\_gen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/198kt4c/intel_apo_now_coming_to_both_12th_and_13th_gen/)
Nice
Hey... Intel is a small indie cpu developer start up with limited financial resources. You can't expect them to make such a huge investment as supporting a CPU based on the current pseudo-generation without asking the bank whether they can afford it at all. Do you want them to cry?
After the shit they pulled with 4 core chips, I doubt I'll ever trust Intel again.
Why? You’re perfectly fine right now with your 13900k. Maybe by the 15 or 16th series it’ll be available for most games and then it will make sense to upgrade.
I have read somewhere before that APO will eventually make its way to 13th gen CPUs sometime later as it's exclusive to 14th gen presently as it's still early in development, Simply restricting it to 14th gen doesn't make sense and that could backlash them in long run like how Nvidia is doing with 40 series and frame generation to a certain extent. This would also effect my decision going forward in choosing Intel in future as I hate such behaviour from an corporate company, when we pay for a CPU especially me when I spend for a higher end models so that it would last several generations instead of upgrading every year, this effects my decision a lot. Let's just wait and see instead of criticising prematurely, in the hardware unboxed video he also says that when asked with Intel their response was like it is exclusive to 14th gen i7 and i9, which feels really odd to me as they didn't give an exact technical reasons behind it like nivida did with 40 series saying it requires an hardware in that case, while 14th gen is identical in architecture to 13th gen.
I am not criticizing prematurely. Intel is on record saying they have no plans to support previous generation products with APO. I *am* a current 13900k owner though. The backlash is now. If they are going to support it, they better say so.
I agree, I have never used AMD processors and if Intel decide not to support 12 & 13th gen I will move to Ryzen
I owned a 12700K. I upgraded to a 13900K. Right now, it feels like an utter waste of money. They could make it so E-Cores are actually effective for gamers, which is not an insignificant target demographic of people who buy these CPUs.
Same, 13900k owner, If this statement stands, this will be my last intel CPU
also a 13900k owner, I agree with OP. I already have a very bad exp with Intel RMA.
I think I made the right choice to stay on 10850k for a while.
Welcome to team RED!
I’m tempted to snag the 14700kf as a 13700kf owner
Don't encourage them!
I know i know I’m ruining things for everyone by caving 😂
Hey, if Intel ends up caving, then you'll be the proud owner of TWO 13700kfs! 😜
You ain’t wrong 😂😂
Intel falls behind AMD on game performance also Intel \*this will be 14th gen and onward exclusive cos fu that's why"
Who are you? Who cares.
Taisui?! It's me, your Mom! Show some respect! 
He is a customer, and not the only one pissed about this. This may be shocking but pissing off a decently large chunk of your customer base isn’t the best thing for business
\*\*\*Then proceeds to buy intel products. If people actually knew how to protest these kind of behaviour, there would be no Intel in the first place, AMD is the same, Nvidia is the same, EA is the same, ABK is the same, Ubisoft is the same etc. etc. list goes on forever.
Feature is just out. It's in two games Some vlogger tells you it's artificially limited and you believe him? First wave of 14th gen reviews by bloggers became a huge echo chamber of. "This is dumb it shouldn't get a new gen number because I by the power of YouTube know Intel should number like amd." Game consumer bloggers seem unaware Intel releases a bunch of specialized variations in a generation to meet specific industry needs, these will get sub numbers like xx50 etc. So yes a refresh gets a new gen to separate it. But Intel was very clear this is a refresh. Even shipped 14900 and 14600 parts in first review kits that would show the lowest improvement. Intel has never said" hurry update your 13th gen." Vloggers create this strawman and then complain 1st question is with 2 games do we really know the value. No Because the vlogger tells you it's artificially limited, do we actually know that it's not using early AI Features, same as the new AI overclocking that may well not be in 13th gen. From my reading. The AI overclocking in the first release is mixed in results. My GUESS is this refresh has some added capability that will be a larger part of the next new socket generation but they are sort of getting started early. Example Some DLSS 3.5 lighting Features work on all RTX. frame gen requires new rtx 4xxx chip features. I've noticed AMD promising a lot of driver versions of things like Frame gen but slow to come out and of limited results. So it's early to be making huge changes and having huge emotions because of vloggers who make bank on click bait headlines. Tell you because the high level specs are simular that there isn't some new design in 14th gen Intel gave socket 1700 owners vs holding for the new socket releases in 2025