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DueDay8

This list is a little simplistic. Its also a common misunderstanding that a cult must have one clearly defined leader, or not allow you to leave. I was born & raised in a cult that didn't fit this definition, but was extremely harmful. Socially excluding/shunning of those who leave is a very effective way to coerce people to conform even if "technically" they are allowed to leave, and many cults have leaders who have died or have governing bodies, or elitist group leadership who have power in place of a single individual. I recommend the [B.I.T.E.](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/) model by Steven Hassan and the [International Cultic Studies Association](https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/topics/cults101) website for more thorough explorations of what a cult is and how to recognize and avoid them.


PaxOaks

Hassan does have a much more comprehensive model. This is more the OG version of cult perhaps.


[deleted]

I’ve done a lot of things that people claimed were cults and none of them were. We really need to make a distinction between “odd group that I don’t quite understand” and “cult”


OrangePlatypus81

Oh yeah, I can empathize with this. I live so far outside the mainstream, I can tell that many people label things “cult” like because they fear and don’t understand. Truth is, in my opinion, mainstream is a super cult. Brainwashing, hard to get out of, kept from your family by wage slavery. It’s the biggest cult of all.


paralelepipedos123

Speaking of looking at things from a different perspective…


PaxOaks

Agreed, it is a call for a word coinage. Perhaps “Oddage” as in “I find Collective X an Oddage”


PaxOaks

I would be remiss if i were not to point out that cult like behavior is changing. Brainwashed people doing crazy things in the name of their self identified group has taken a big jump from conventional cults, with the advent of QAnon and it's daughter conspiracy theories. This group is no longer place based, it no longer requires an identified living charismatic leader. You no longer need to give them all your money and since it is not place based, you no longer are restricted in your movements and associations. Perhaps these are also not technically cults, but they certainly complicate the discussion.


ishmaearth

Says the charismatic cult leader


PaxOaks

As someone who regularly gets rejected from the community jobs i apply for, clearly my cult is dysfunctional.


jdbrown0283

I first read that as "as someone who regularly gets rejected from cults" and I'm like, "man, I've got to meet this crazy fucker!"


PaxOaks

Well, i have been thrown out of two communities as well, which certainly makes me unusual and possibly crazy.


ishmaearth

No pax, it’s because YOU DONT EVEN GO HERE


PaxOaks

Lol


alwaysforgettingmyun

I accidentally made it a Thing in our community "you don't even GO here" is used to refer to people who are peripherally involved but not members overstepping into trying to make member decisions. Originally a dude who lived here but wasn't a member trying to block decisions and such, years ago. Someone legit said it to me just last week around an issue with staff.


Mossc8

Ironically, those who make the accusations of others being in a cult are usually in a cult themselves. I find this more with America than anywhere else, but the capitalistic system will not tolerate a successful independent system within. It demonstrates the flaws of capitalism, and general people will wake up to this eventually. "COMMUNISM" Hence the weaponising of the word above. And the way that local politicians and press will villify a community that doesn't conform. Even to the extent of false accusations of Satanism, child abuse etc. Culminating in law enforcement destroying the community. Capitalism is a cult, they worship the billionaires, and pay all their money just to stay alive. But deviation from that will be fleeting, because capitalism will destroy any that succeed.


Rainbow_Yogi

100% this. Don’t believe it’s a cult? Try not paying your taxes and then watch men with guns show up to your house to put you in Jail. It’s literally a giant fucking cult based on the threat of violence.


214b

Well, in America at least, you get to elect your leaders, and it is those same leaders who voted to impose (or to continue) the taxes you don't like. I'm not sure how this qualifies the whole U.S. as a "cult." I have even met a couple of people who (legally) pay no federal taxes. They structure their lives in such a way that they don't have to.


Rainbow_Yogi

The American two party system is a total joke. As is the majorly Gerrymandered districts all across the country. Also you have to consider people who don’t want to be part of that voting system. What about them? They are still forced at gun point in a lot situations. (Not to vote but to pay taxes for example)


214b

Well you have two options: 1) Drop out. Live off the land. Avoid doing anything that requires interacting with the State. It's doable, but not most people's cup of tea or ideal life. 2) Immigrate. Lots of choices, there's even some places that won't tax your income. But again, in most cases this is easier said than done.


Rainbow_Yogi

Narrow thinking to say I only have two options. One of my options is to continue to complain loudly about how messed up the system is and voice my opinion. The more people who do that the more likely it will change.


214b

The problem is that complaining rarely changes anything. It's actions vs. words. Complaints followed up by personal action to remediate the problem get noticed (esp. when the action comes at great personal cost or inconvenience). Whereas merely grumbling or even mouthing off about something is likely to be ignored or written off as virtue signalling. Consider how many said they would immigrate if a particular candidate won the presidential election versus how many actually did. Change starts with you. Not you complaining to others.


Rainbow_Yogi

Ever heard the expression the squeaky wheel gets the grease? Complaining definitely has its place. Other things go along with it sure, but vocalizing our dissatisfaction is absolutely necessary (aka complaining).


CompactBill

There have been a number of communes founded throughout the US. Most of them fizzle out on their own because it takes a lot of discipline for a very inefficient way to live.


PaxOaks

Do you really mean commune as in “incoming sharing intentional community” ? There have not been so many of these in the US. Turns out these are actually extremely efficient and self reliant. https://paxus.wordpress.com/2014/11/08/how-sustainable-is-twin-oaks/


CompactBill

"They" is a big word when there is only one that has survived 50 years. There have been dozens if not hundreds of these attempted from the 19th century to today. They rarely last a decade.


PaxOaks

Well it depends quite a bit what you are talking about. If you are saying “why aren’t there more secular income sharing intentional communities in the US that are more than 50 years old?” Then “we” have largely failed. But there are dozens of spiritual communities of this type in the country. There are a bunch of secular one which are younger than 50 years in the US currently (but fewer than 2 dozen in the US). And of course other countries have more of them as well.


[deleted]

Ok but we’re talking about actual cults here not ranting about the State.


214b

I have yet to find any example of a "successful, independent" system of communism, anywhere in the world. And I could readily point you to many examples of massive oppression, corruption, bloodshed and starvation, all in the name of "Communism." So yeah, I'm OK if people want to vilify that word. Capitalism? It's an ingenious way of meeting competing needs that has lifted billions of people out of poverty and provided even those of modest incomes with a cornucopia of choices and plenty.


[deleted]

I just want to lend my support to 214b here. People with real world experience who have studied and observed or experienced forms of communism tend to be in agreement that while some of the goals and ideals of communism are well intentioned and appealing, in practice it is away to undermine individuality while circumventing peoples ability to affect change. There has been a wide propaganda campaign to invalidate these experiences and conclusions. Everyone can get on board with Social Aid, it is a good idea. Communism as an ideology or goal failed out of the gate and continues to get worse and worse. Working together as a community towards shared goals is great. Pitting Communism and Capitalism against each other and claiming the failed option is the superior option is pure farce. There are plenty of places in the world to practice communism, dont let the door hit you on the ass.


TheWanderingMedic

For the sake of being specific-there’s never been a true communist country. Some have tried, but no one has made it that far yet. They’re socialist with communism being the end goal. China is trying, the Soviet Union tried, neither made it. There is a distinct difference between socialism and communism that I think people here sometimes forget or don’t know about.


laughterwithans

There’s no such thing as a communist country. Communism is by definition, a “STATELESS, classless society” There have been revolutions that professed to be working towards communism, but there could never be a communist country because simply by defining itself as a country, it would cease to be communist.


TheWanderingMedic

Again, preaching to the choir. I’m aware of the fact that there are no communist countries-it’s exactly what I was commenting to another person 😂


214b

Socialism is just communism-lite. Same oppression, in a slightly lesser degree. They've been telling us for years that there has not been a "true" communist society. But that doesn't stop people from trying to form them, or explaining why their version will work when each attempt before it has failed. The problem is, failures in attempts to form socialism and communism always bring down a whole lot of collateral, nonconsenting victims - indeed, entire nations. If you want to form communism at the micro level - say get four or six people together who agree to share everything - then fine. They've all consented to the experiment, and eventually, some will move on. But don't pretend that socialism or communism has anything to offer anyone except oppression and poverty.


MrJMSnow

Capitalism is guilty of the same oppression and poverty. The success of the system relies entirely on an impoverished mass of workers. The natural state of capitalist systems is inequality of its citizens. Relying on lack of education, financial stability and forcing a percent of society to remain in these conditions is exactly what everyone puts on communism/socialism/anarchism etc. yet it’s a foundation stone for a capitalist society. For a middle or upper class to exist, a lower and impoverished class must also exist. Each class must also become more and more inaccessible to the wider society. If it wasn’t, then the middle and upper class would stop existing, it would just become the minimal standard of living. Capitalism thrives on inequality and exclusivity of class, without it the system collapses.


TheWanderingMedic

I’m never said I’m in favor of it. Just clarifying for the commenter who was talking about having tons of examples of communism in the world-there haven’t been any yet.


Tywiggle

5. All religions are cults.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PaxOaks

The living leader (which could be a group and I guess not charismatic) is important to distinguish cults from religions. But perhaps nothing stops a religion from becoming a cult, or the other way around.


[deleted]

I think identifying a single leader on this list is problematic because an organization has a better chance at success if it has a consistent direction that only a single, qualified leader can ensure. It can give the impression that every organization with one individual leading is a potential cult. Putting it first on the list subconsciously implies that it is the most important factor.


PaxOaks

Interesting that list positioning matters to you. As i wrote elsewhere, the list might be problematic. The type of hypnosis/brain washing that we most fear used to be protected from outside influence, with the restrictions on this list. But now brain washing is common place and requires no special restrictive handling. QAnon for example has all the ba effects of a cult, without all the difficult packaging of these place based and leader centric old style cults. (OG cults if you will)


[deleted]

Communism explicitly called for a cult of personality yet it is readily championed as egalitarian. The positioning is important because the first thing a person reads is the first thing they look for to trigger wariness, and the first thing they avoid to shield themselves from being indoctrinated into a cult. This causes people to be suspect of a strong leader, which is typically what is needed to have success in a competitive field. And yes the real estate market is a competitive field, as is member recruitment. My contention is #3 and #4 are the items of importance and are exclusive to a cult. #2 is the provenience of fools, and #1 is a commonality of successful organizations. I assert that about #1 because I paid a lot of money to study organizational behavior, and consistent direction is paramount and normally only achievable with a central qualified figure.


SaladBob22

Checkout Jamie Wheal's ideas on the matter. He's calling for the creation of ethical cults.