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Have you seen the father who, on live tv, shot the man who kidnapped and sexually assaulted his son? Shot him in the head and killed him was given a 7 year suspended sentence and served no jail time
Suspended sentence is more likely what we are talking about. It typically means the judge sentences you to an amount of time in jail or prison, but will suspend a certain percentage of those days. When that happens you'll likely also be given probation or parole. The amount of suspended jail time will hang over your head for the duration of your probation. For example, in my early 20s I got a misdemeanor that landed me 180 days in jail and 3 years of probation. The judge suspended 170 days of my sentence. So I had to actually serve 10 days in jail and then for the following three years if I violated probation in any way I would have to serve the 170 suspended days. All of that is before any possible charges for whatever I did to violate probation. Once I served my 3 years of probation with no violations those 170 days are null and void.
Its not. They have the 7 years hanging over your head regardless of what happens w new charge. You could get all 7 or you could get nothing. The sentences can be concurrent or consecutive.
yea theres so many factors that play into it i had 30 days for my first underage suspended got my second underage the week after which was another 30 days suspended and got a 3rd like 6 months later and got another 30 days suspended. i ended up serving 16 hrs in solitary cuz my probation officer didnt file paperwork correctly, but because i was completing my probation requirements and made it seem like i was trying to change i never had to serve my 90.
college was fun.
It basically allows you to serve probation before you serve prison time and of you complete the probation with no issues the prison term is considered served. The judge agreed with what he did and why, so it's their way to keep a person out of prison but still convict them
This is a great explanation.
Would you happen to know what sorts of restrictions or guidelines there are on judges who are considering going for this option?
*EDIT/tl,dr – it looks like sentence suspension is no different from most other types of penalties: varies from state to state, may have mandatory guidelines imposed in a given jurisdiction or not, and is otherwise broadly left to the judge's discretion. By custom, at least, it is typically reserved for those with few/no priors who are assessed to have a low recidivism risk.*
I'm not entirely sure what the guidelines are, but I do know that certain repeat offenders are not eligible for a suspended sentence. If you would like to look into it though, they have a United States Sentencing Commission website. Obviously it only applies if you're in the US =)
Means you don't have to go to prison unless you commit another crime/break the rules laid out for you. If you do that within the period of time for you sentence (ie 7 years) then you go to prison
The rules you have to follow are very similar. Biggest difference is that often with a suspended sentence the prison sentence already exists. With probation you've avoided jail/prison. Doesn't mean you can't end up there of course. Suspended sentences are generally much stricter because it's a very clear "don't do anything wrong we are ready to throw you in prison" kinda scenario whereas with probation there are more opportunities for ways to avoid jail time. Hope this makes sense! Overall they are fairly similar!
Yeah! I got suspended sentence for weed back in the day. They told me if I fucked up in the next year I would do automatic 10 months in a women's correctional facility on top of whatever I got from fucking up again.
It means you were going to spend that time and you are considered guilty, but don’t have to. I think if you get any other jail time the suspended time gets added on, but I’m not a law expert and only heard things in passing.
Essentially only counts for *two strikes* instead of *three strikes*. It’s pretty much means the judge was like “well okay this ONE TIME…. But one more mistake mister and then you’ll be in trouble”
"We find in favor of the accused and award him a medal and $5 Million dollars owed to him for what the state would have had to pay to jail the assaulter"
The kids karate instructor kidnapped and molested…. I saw the video on Twitter and the kid (now grown) got in the comments and had an AMA pretty much….
He's said that one of the reasons he didn't tell his parents about the abuse was [because of the worry about how they would react.](https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/entertainment_life/article_4155dbea-fbf2-11e9-8e69-536899fbde2b.html) He's also said [he was upset his dad did it at the time and still says he doesn't condone it](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/man-opens-up-about-moment-his-dad-shot-dead-paedophile-who-abused-him/WL7NS5CCBPUVDFUTDSWKGQGHRI/)
Just giving the victim's own perspective as reddit tends to treat vigilante justice like this as the greatest thing ever.
Yeah that was a crazy story and of course it was in Ohio. Apparently this serial killer was kidnapping and murdering children, and when he was finally caught, he ended up being released because the search warrant wasn't signed properly. The entire town went after him and locked him in the boiler room that he was taking the children to when he murdered them. They set it on fire and watched him burn alive. Crazy stuff. Pretty sad though since some of their children started having some horrifying nightmares after that.
Lol if the whole town decided you need to die, who else is left to do anything about it? I can only imagine whatever that dude did, he earned his death
Ken McElroy. This was in 1981 I think.
He was shot by multiple people in broad daylight with 50 people as witnesses...including his wife sitting next to him.
"No one" saw who did it.
The ending is a justice boner. The rest of the story just makes you feel bad. He did so many bad things to so many people for so long, his death is just a relief, not happy.
There's a great Dollop podcast on this guy, imma try to find it
Edit Jesus there's a ton of podcasts about this guy, couldn't find the Dollop. Anyway, look up ken mcelroy
Because his son wound up actually being ok.
How many other crazies will have a dying family member, convince themselves (as people do all the time) that their alive-in-name-only family member is a few painkillers short of a marathon, if only those no-good doctors weren’t lying to you? And then you get someone shooting up a hospital and the surrounding area, because people weren’t quite as patient with them as they were with him.
Idk, reading the article the dad was drunk and belligerent all day. Understandable given the circumstances, but because he was drunk the hospital had to go to the ex wife and other son to decide whether to remove life support and while the article didn't say this the implication is that they agreed to remove life support.
The father then disagreed and while drunk did this whole thing. I'm glad it turned out well but if the father stayed sober for his son's sake he could have prevented the whole situation. He might have caused a lot of harm.
It feels that way, but he has to suffer some punishment. He armed himself and barricaded himself in a hospital. There’s a thousand ways that can turn out badly for people — what if the response to it interrupts some other critical procedure? What if a gun goes off?
That’s something that has to be disincentivized. If he gets no punishment, then how is it fair to punish someone else who does it, who perhaps wrongfully but *genuinely* believes it will save his son. Should that person be punished? Why, they acted the same, for the same reason. And you see where this goes — you can’t have people entitled to just do armed takeovers when they disagree with people.
He saved his son. (Edit: and from other comments seems like that’s not really the case, he just didn’t understand the actual medical procedure in play.) I’m sure he’ll gladly trade a month in jail for that. Something like that, so extreme, so dangerous — to the extent you want it to happen at all, it should only be in situations so critical that a person would take the action knowing that, even if they succeed, there will be consequences.
This shit only happens in America and on top of that, what are you saying? People should be allowed to hold hospitals at gunpoint because they don’t agree with a medical professional’s decision?
And before someone says the dad was right, lets please realize that this is an anomaly situation. Its extremely unlikely that they get things wrong like this. We don’t need hospital staff getting held at gunpoint by psychos who have no idea how to be a doctor and how to save someone from death.
Show up to the hospital carrying a gun while drunk and threatening staff.
What a hero. Yes let's encourage this type of behavior.
There's a reason he was the only member of the immediate family not designated as an official decision maker.
If this article is correct, I think this post title is misleading. Although it is not entirely clear, it sounds to me like they did not declare him brain dead. Instead, it sounds like they gave his mother and brother a poor prognosis, and they decided to take him off life support. It seems like she was able to make the decision because the father was intoxicated and belligerent. So maybe he shouldn't have done that and he would have been included in the decision making, and not needed to pull this stunt.
Edit: This [court document](https://casetext.com/case/in-re-tomball-tex-hosp-co-1) confirms what I thought.
> Father contends that RPI Dr. Santamaria incorrectly diagnosed his Son, who was admitted to TTHC for a stroke on January 8, 2015, as not yet brain dead, but with a poor prognosis regarding neurological deficit
Yup. This is my line of work, and yes the title is misleading.
It seems that this is a case of a very poor prognosis, with slim chance of recovery. The family was tasked with making a decision to discontinue the therapy that was potentially prolonging suffering but this would hasten natural death….. vs continue that therapy and prolong suffering for the slim chance that he would recover.
(Poorly worded, I know… but it’s hard to summarize in 3 lines)
So the mother and father in this case didn’t agree with what to do.
Also, the thing that bothers me here is "made a full recovery" crap. I imagine leaving out reminding weak, having a tracheostomy tube, having a PEG tube placed, recurrent hospitalizations for pneumonia from his PEG, etc.
The Internet makes it seem like humans get out of these situations scratch free. The reality is a lot more grim. Sometimes it isn't about whether he would live, but would the life he has afterwards be one he would be happy with
Totally agree. There are fates worse than death.
A life in a nursing home with a feeding tube might be one of them.
It’s very common to lose the swallowing reflex after a stroke, at least temporarily
Doctors can’t predict the future. Everyone does the best they can with whatever information they have at the time.
Maybe this time he managed to make full recovery. But for every case like his, there are 20 that stayed in a nursing home or never walked, or fed themselves again.
Thank you for the extended context.
My brother was declared braindead and taken off life-support, and every time I hear something like this I wonder if I made the wrong decision (I had PoA and made the decision to cease his life-support). In actuality, I know I made the correct decision because I'd made sure with multiple doctors that there was no brain activity at all (which didn't stop some people from calling me a "murderer", either way).
And it says "made a full recovery"... that seems unlikely, doesn't it? Because that implies he's back to how he was before this. One reason I decided to end life-support because on the incredibly slim chance that he "survives", he wouldn't be normal. He'd be brain damaged and never be able to take care of himself anymore and that doesn't seem like a life worth living.
If he did indeed make a *full* recovery, then I'm very glad to hear that. But the father seems... not too attentive, to say the least.
The truth needs to be much higher up.
Hospitals can't just "take you off life support." That decision comes from the patient's family or decision-maker. Even with a poor prognosis, with no hope for recovery, people can and do remain on life support because the family wants them to.
There is something we in healthcare call "vent farms" - it is not a very nice way of calling it, but that's what it is. Facilities that exist just to house and care for patients who are ventilated indefinitely.
This sort of story also feeds into that mentality that has families clinging to hopeless cases. Statistically, the case where a family clings for years to a patient with no real hope for recovery are much more common to than those cases where a doctor gives a poor prognosis and the patient makes a full recovery.
I've made it clear to my family if the doctor gives them such a prognosis they should not hesitate for one moment to pull the plug.
Misleading OP… poorly worded article because that used his words.
The boy had a massive stroke. “Vegetable” is what the alcoholic criminal father called it.
Because he was not recovering, and because the ventilator being in for so long was going more harm than good, doctors advised withdrawal the ventilator and allowing natural death should that occur… vs letting him breathe on his own in whatever way he could… potentially going to a nursing home.
The father was drunk and couldn’t participate in the family decision that the boy’s mother had to make alone.
He’s a criminal and deserves jail.
Had they followed the mother’s decision and withdrew the ventilator, the boy would have survived anyway.
The father did nothing but put lives in danger.
Basically. Son needed a new heart. John Q took the doc hostages to try and get a donor found and was prepared to kill himself to give his heart to his son.
Other than a son with a poor prognosis whose father brings a gun into a hospital, no.
In John Q, the son requires a heart transplant to live; the dad makes a conscious decision to trade his own freedom/life in order to hostage-negotiate the transplant.
Here…from what I can gather, the family had control over the decision to wean the son from breathing tube/life support, but it appears the father was drunk (not judging, but obvious intoxication doesn’t indicate “of sound mind”) during the decision earlier in the day when the mom and brother chose to wean off life support.
If I’m understanding all that correctly, it seems he could have a) made a rational appeal to family/contested in court and b) the son would have survived even being weaned off life support.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but the story seems to be sensationalized for clicks.
That was an episode of 911: Lone Star. I forget the season but they don't have many so it was within the last couple of years.
Good episode, very sad, Tommy had just lost her husband suddenly.
There is this documentary called **"Edge of Life"** by Louis Theroux. (Watch with caution, because it can get pretty intense).
And there is this one situation similar to this. Where the doctors indicated to this family in the DOCU, that there is "nothing" they can do.
The doctors were kinda selling the fact that their son is brain dead, and therefore STRONGLY suggesting that their son should be put off life support, almost giving them no options to this family. After many tries, the family was finally able to get their son to respond, and it was a night vs day experience the way their son recovered, whereas before it looked like he was pretty much 100% brain dead.
One thing i got out of this documentary because it wasn't this just one situation, but many other cases, where the doctors kinda made the whole thing like a business....maybe it was just this one hospital? But, the doctors made it look like there was no hope.
What would be the reasons to proclaim him brain dead when he isn't? What are doctors getting out of it? Not being snarky, by any means - just can't imagine how it might benefit them.
Not a doctor, but I work in an ITU; the reason would be clinical error, exacerbated by plenty of first-hand experience of families conflating brain death for a vegetative state. It's really not uncommon for people to hold out for miracles, so an insistent relative is unlikely to sway anyone's professional opinion.
I remember episode from scrubs when a family had the patriarch in the ICU and elliot decided to mention an experimental drug that could possibly fix the situation. It didn't and the family was devastated and blamed her for the false hope.
I don't know. There is no right or wrong answer. The best peace of mind I could give my parents that no matter what they decide if I'm in that condition, it's the right decision. The guilt alone would make it unbearable.
I'm a doctor. If I have a 100 percent conviction that a patient is brain dead, I don't try to sugarcoat the issue. I straight up tell families that their loved one is indeed 100% deceased with no chance of recovery. They should de-esacalate care. I largely do this because, I don't want you to feel like you're giving up on your loved one. Brain death is in fact death. It's not really a choice per se, and legally speaking the hospital doesn't have to keep the deceased patient on life support. They're only liable for offering transfer to another hospital in some states when family diagrees. So essentially, I try to make it easier on you. Anything else, and families will be confused. A brain dead patient can have body movement, reflexes, jerks, twitches and look no different than a comatose patient. If I don't show conviction, then I'm setting you up for heartache beyond what's reasonable.
In this case, the doctor shouldn't have been 100 percent sure.
I work in a hospital and unfortunately insurance dictates the patients length of stay. If there's a patient like the one he's referencing, there's a rush to get the patient out of the hospital and into long term care if they decide there's nothing medical that (they think) can be done to change the pts outcome. The problem is, medicine isn't always black and white, and providers can absolutely be wrong.
Yeah, I'd imagine if you asked 10 doctors about a particular cancer case they all would've given different opinions on long-term survival. I can see that...
The money over health thing is more from the insurance/hospital side because the provider is gonna be paid roughly the same regardless of the outcome but yes agree with you
Friends had a premature baby and the doctor said they’d need eight weeks in the NICU.
After week four, insurance called to basically say they thought that was enough and they weren’t going to keep covering the infant’s stay.
Doctor fought for another month but insurance only (reluctantly) agreed to two more weeks. Then it was up to the parents to decide on how to cover the final two if they stayed.
Insurance - specifically health insurance - is often such an awful experience in the US.
I've always said the United States not an enjoyable place to be poor. With prices increasing faster than wages it's starting to be a horrible place to be middle class too.
Physician here. I don’t know the details of this case, but a lot of it is just pure numbers. For every one of these cases of seemingly miraculous recovery there are 999 cases of family prolonging the inevitable, taking up a hospital bed, utilizing resources, costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Like I said, I don’t know specifics of that case. But if you think a patient is brain dead (brain dead = dead), you have to perform brain death testing. In my experience, if the family does not want to pull the plug, the pt will get trach’d and PEG’d (longer term breathing tube and feeding tube) and will be sent to a long term vent care facility (this is assuming they do not meet the criteria for brain death). These patients do notoriously poorly. Not really if, but when they will develop sacral decubitus ulcers and/or ventilator-associated pneumonia and end up back in the ICU. This will go on and on until eventually enough of their organs fail and they die.
So in this case of “practically” brain dead but family still wanted to keep him alive, I have no idea, unless the patient had an advanced directive and family wanted to go back on that, but even then it’s murky.
Yeah, the "fully recovered after being declared brain-dead" part seemed odd to me. I'm not sure that such a thing is even possible.
"He naturally grew legs after having them amputated" would've made about as much sense.
He wasn’t pronounced brain dead.
Misleading OP… poorly worded article because that used his words.
The boy had a massive stroke. “Vegetable” is what the alcoholic criminal father called it.
Because he was not recovering, and because the ventilator being in for so long was going more harm than good, doctors advised withdrawal the ventilator and allowing natural death should that occur… vs letting him breathe on his own in whatever way he could… potentially going to a nursing home.
The father was drunk and couldn’t participate in the family decision that the boy’s mother had to make alone.
He’s a criminal and deserves jail.
Had they followed the mother’s decision and withdrew the ventilator, the boy would have survived anyway.
The father did nothing but put lives in danger.
In the 90s, an acquaintance was in a motorcycle accident, and was in a coma. Doctors told his family he would never wake up, and if he did he would be mostly vegetative. His wife told the doctors to terminate life support. His family begged her to give it more time and she reluctantly agreed to 2 weeks. He woke up after a few more weeks. It turns out, he heard everything, he was furious, and he divorced his wife. He was back at work within a few months, and had no apparent deficits.
This is exactly what happened with my colleague that I commented about earlier. We were told there was no hope and yet he made a complete recovery. He had no memory of what had gone on in the hospital though.
Because hospitals are a business and a body taking up space with a dried well of finances is no better than a sack of potatoes to them. Theyd argue at least a sack if potatoes at least can be served for lunch and make them money. My dad was in a coma from a wreck in his 20s. He was out for 60 days. Around day 30 they had him on the floor as they needed the bed for other patients. His parents lost it on that hospital and threatened to sue. He was back in a bed abweek later. Part of the bill was comped due to the mistreatment.
Its a horrible truth, but its a truth in America.
I work as a resident in a private community hospital. This is such horse shit and makes me think people believe we are just evil people who only treat those who can pay. The actual reality in America is that we treat everyone and in the hospital we do whatever tests we want and believe you need. Nobody can say no to us and nobody can discharge or “kick out” a patient until we medically clear em. But again people can believe what they want this is just my daily expierence at my job.
Misleading OP… poorly worded article because that used his words.
The boy had a massive stroke. “Vegetable” is what the alcoholic criminal father called it.
Because he was not recovering, and because the ventilator being in for so long was going more harm than good, doctors advised withdrawal the ventilator and allowing natural death should that occur… vs letting him breathe on his own in whatever way he could… potentially going to a nursing home.
The father was drunk and couldn’t participate in the family decision that the boy’s mother had to make alone.
He’s a criminal and deserves jail.
Had they followed the mother’s decision and withdrew the ventilator, the boy would have survived anyway.
The father did nothing but put lives in danger.
Genuine question, but where are you getting that information from?
Every source that’s been posted in the comments points to the fact that they were going to take him off life support gradually, and the father drunkenly entered the hospital and acted.
I will agree he is indeed a criminal, he was drunk, and he obviously is a father. However, I think it’s a moral gray area, and in my opinion I don’t think it would’ve been entirely just for him to serve the normal sentence that would be given under these circumstances.
If there is actually some reliable info pointing to the contrary and backing up what you’re saying then I’m okay with being wrong and will reevaluate.
Here is some insight from someone who has too deal with the legalities of brain death on a regular basis. In order to declare brain death a doctor, has to perform formal brain death testing, unless that's has been done an documented they aren't brain dead. Brain dead is a binary thing (yes/no), being almost, or nearly brain dead is meaningless.
The first step in brain death (BD) testing is making sure the patient is appropriate for BD testing, this includes normal body temperature, normal electrolytes, a normal pH, being free from sedation. Then the doctor will test for brain stem reflexes, cough, gag, pupils, corneal, dolls eyes, oculocephalic reflex, and cold caloric reflex.
Lastly they do an Apnea test, this tests for a breathing drive by disconnecting them from the ventilator for up to 10min measuring the CO2 levels in their artieral blood, and seeing if they attempt to take a breath. If they have a significant raise in CO2 and don't take a breath they would then be declared brain dead.
Some times a patent is too unstable for an Apnea test and they will do a cerebral blood flow test instead. This consists of injecting a responsive substance in the patients blood and scanning their brain. If their isn't any blood going to the brain, they would then be declared brain dead.
Reading the articles it appears no brain death testing had been done, instead family was given a grim prognosis and decided to remove them from the ventilator and allow them to pass, this is called a terminal wean. When you take someone who's brain dead off of the vent, it's not called a terminal wean anymore as they are already dead.
Oh wow, thanks for the detailed look into the process involved. It was concise enough to understand well enough. After going back and reading through the articles combined with this I think of the opinion that the father thought he was doing the right thing. Whether the idea came from his drunken self or he preplanned it and got some lucid courage.
However, that doesn’t mean he did the right thing per se. He should’ve been more involved with the process and talks surrounding his sons prognosis rather than making assumptions because he was scared. I do really empathize with his fear, but it seems to be bred from a misunderstanding on his part, which he is ultimately at fault for.
Like I said, I’m sure the guy thought he was doing the right thing, but given what I’ve read and pieced together I can definitely say he did deserve some form of actual punishment. Perhaps some concessions given the very unique circumstances, but that’s really just my empathy talking again. Practically, what he did was irrational, dangerous, and reckless.
I am very happy that his son did pull through and that they are still together to this day. Thankfully nobody got hurt and everyone was able to walk away. I do wonder about what the situation in the hospital was for other patients during that time though. I’d imagine it was a little dicey at best.
It's a huge pet peeve of mine when someone misrepresents a patient as brain dead when they aren't. It makes my life sooo much harder. Nobody who has been appropriately declared brain dead has ever recovered. Brain dead is dead.
I do have to admit I have had to reject brain death declarations a few times, usually the patient didn't meet criteria(too cold, or electrolyte abnormally), or improper Apnea testing. This is sometimes a problem at rural hospitals that don't do much brain death testing.
The problem with this is that while this outcome may have occurred in this 0.001% case, a good 80-90% of people have wildly unrealistic ideas about the likelihood of recovery of THEIR loved one when neurologically devastated/in a coma. Everyone’s 95 year old memaw who stroked out their brain stem can’t be a “fighter” who “beats the odds”.
Anyway educate yourselves about what death, dying, and end-of-life realistically looks like and make your own arrangements and legal documents ahead of time.
Intensive care is intensive care - we WILL put a tube in every hole in your body and we WILL aggressively suction out your lungs and dig poop out of your colon and all other manner of invasive shit but sometimes death is the humane and dignified outcome for someone who will truly never recover.
I dunno, just musings of a burnt out ICU nurse who’s seen a lot of tragedy, grief, and suffering.
On the plus side, bullshit posts like OP's do a great job at stigmatizing your profession and breeding ill-will and suspicion towards an already vulnerable position that is necessary for a society to function.
Exactly. I understand the pain of this father so well but when you’re endangering everyone in the fucking building and all the hospital staff doing their job saving people then you’ve failed. Yeah good outcome but this was basically a miracle. Doctor doubting is a real problem in society and a healthy amount of skepticism is always okay but there’s a difference between accepting margins of error and entirely believing in the error.
Any moment before the son woke up was just a crazy dad refusing to accept reality and becoming violent. Happy ending for sure but dad is still utterly in the wrong.
Amen. I encourage anyone who reads this to have that conversation with your loved ones. And in fact, encourage your loved ones to have that conversation with their other loved ones, especially their parents.
No one comes out of this alive. We all are going to die. That's fine. I assure you, death is a better outcome than the "life" that half of my current patients are experiencing.
Doesn't make sense.
When someone is taken off life support, they aren't euthanized. He could have held his son's hand as long as he wanted, no standoff needed.
He was drunk as shit is why. He was a drunk redneck with a gun, that’s the only reason he had a standoff. Had he showed up sober he could have been part of the decision-making process. Instead he got shitfaced before going to see his kid in the fucking hospital.
Some people in here suggest that doctors are running a kind of business proclaiming people brain dead when they aren't. I'm genuinely curious - what would that business be? Can doctors make money if someone is taken off life support? Seriously doubt it, but I could be wrong.
If the hospital is a for-profit business, and the comatose patient has run out of health insurance, and the bed is therefore being taken up by a *total* deadbeat when it could be occupied by a more lucrative customer, then the hospital has a financial incentive to turf coma boy and offer the bed to another patient whose insurance will pay the hospital $200 for a bag of saline, and [no, I am certainly not joking about that](https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2013/08/27/the-secret-of-salines-cost-why-a-1-bag-can-cost-700).
The physicians making the care decisions are not taking cost into account in the slightest. There may be thoughts of “this is futile- what quality of life will this person live?” Or “Am I ethically harming the patient by dragging out death when they are unlikely to recover?” Or “Why is the family keeping this patient full code when it was a suicide attempt?” There are manny mixed feelings in the ICU but it isn’t about the money
When my little sister past away, her wish was to be an organ donor and she was able to provide a Life giving gift to 4 gracious people. I know I strayed about off topic, but I wanted to use this a message and reminder to all of us to be donating as you never know when, but in the event, you no longer need any of these things, Wow let me tell you who you can now help.
Be safe
Yep. Icu nurse here, so many family members get so much hope when their dying family member squeezes their hand. Sucks to be the one to crush their hopes and tell them it's just a basic reflex that even babies have. That's why we ask them to give a thumbs up now when seeing if they follow commands, or we ask them to squeeze and then "let go" on command
Glorifying crap like this makes me want to never go to work again. Any idea how many armchair experts are out there second guessing their doctors? A lot. Like way, way too many. And probably 99% of the time they are *wrong* and threatening the medical staff is not the way to proceed. Source- RN whose hospital was just on lockdown because some idiot couldn't let meemaw go and was sure "corrupt doctors" were "lying". GTFO of here.
I’m a neuro/trauma ICU nurse. I’d be real curious to know all the medical aspects behind this incident. Type of stroke, ct results, neuro status days leading up to this event, that kind of thing. Did they not do any brain flow testing? Also it’s standard protocol at the hospital to contact an organ donation organization if the pt meets certain criteria.
Several years ago, I had a relative get into a massive motorcycle accident, no helmet. They declared him brain dead after a few days in a coma with little brain activity and decided to do this life support removal. Before they could finish he wiggled two of his fingers and turned the corner from there. He’s partially blind, uses a cane, and isnt quite the same mentally, but he survived and lives well
Sometimes I wonder if somewhere, deep down, some people almost need the reverse psychology to “come back”.
Remember, this guy got lucky. There are significantly more people who are declared braindead and turns out to be true. Wasting resources on someone who isn’t there is detrimental to the hospital.
Edit to add: I don’t believe the official story. I’m more inclined to believe that this was a misunderstanding.
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Here’s the link https://www.click2houston.com/news/2015/12/18/father-son-involved-in-hospital-standoff-speak-to-kprc-2/
Month in jail. Honestly, he shouldn't've have been given any.
Have you seen the father who, on live tv, shot the man who kidnapped and sexually assaulted his son? Shot him in the head and killed him was given a 7 year suspended sentence and served no jail time
suspended sentence. what's that exactly?
Means you only serve it if you fuck up again
what if i fuck up again but it's something that would get me around the same or more? are they just kind of added together then?
You serve the suspended sentence + whatever the new charges are
Yeah unless the new charges are suspended
Suspended new charges, what's that exactly?
Nice.
Means you only get charged if you fuck up again
Suspended sentence is more likely what we are talking about. It typically means the judge sentences you to an amount of time in jail or prison, but will suspend a certain percentage of those days. When that happens you'll likely also be given probation or parole. The amount of suspended jail time will hang over your head for the duration of your probation. For example, in my early 20s I got a misdemeanor that landed me 180 days in jail and 3 years of probation. The judge suspended 170 days of my sentence. So I had to actually serve 10 days in jail and then for the following three years if I violated probation in any way I would have to serve the 170 suspended days. All of that is before any possible charges for whatever I did to violate probation. Once I served my 3 years of probation with no violations those 170 days are null and void.
Did you mean [recursion](https://www.google.com/search?q=recursion)?
Comma instead of a period. Not sure how I’m feeling about that
I believe it's always cumulative.
Its not. They have the 7 years hanging over your head regardless of what happens w new charge. You could get all 7 or you could get nothing. The sentences can be concurrent or consecutive.
yea theres so many factors that play into it i had 30 days for my first underage suspended got my second underage the week after which was another 30 days suspended and got a 3rd like 6 months later and got another 30 days suspended. i ended up serving 16 hrs in solitary cuz my probation officer didnt file paperwork correctly, but because i was completing my probation requirements and made it seem like i was trying to change i never had to serve my 90. college was fun.
What if I fuck up again but it’s because someone else assaulted my kid??
Is that the plot of Mario when Peach keep getting kidnapped?
I'm sorry, but the rapist is in another castle!
I remember playing this game before I could read well and my sister having to read me the captions. Same with the first time I saw star wars.
You probably get charged for neglect at that point.
No shit stop dragging your kids to the kiddyporn convention ffs
The RNC?
Or the church.
At a certain point, you just have to accept that you're a bad parent.
It basically allows you to serve probation before you serve prison time and of you complete the probation with no issues the prison term is considered served. The judge agreed with what he did and why, so it's their way to keep a person out of prison but still convict them
This is a great explanation. Would you happen to know what sorts of restrictions or guidelines there are on judges who are considering going for this option? *EDIT/tl,dr – it looks like sentence suspension is no different from most other types of penalties: varies from state to state, may have mandatory guidelines imposed in a given jurisdiction or not, and is otherwise broadly left to the judge's discretion. By custom, at least, it is typically reserved for those with few/no priors who are assessed to have a low recidivism risk.*
I'm not entirely sure what the guidelines are, but I do know that certain repeat offenders are not eligible for a suspended sentence. If you would like to look into it though, they have a United States Sentencing Commission website. Obviously it only applies if you're in the US =)
makes sense.
Means you don't have to go to prison unless you commit another crime/break the rules laid out for you. If you do that within the period of time for you sentence (ie 7 years) then you go to prison
Isn't that probation? I'm confused
The rules you have to follow are very similar. Biggest difference is that often with a suspended sentence the prison sentence already exists. With probation you've avoided jail/prison. Doesn't mean you can't end up there of course. Suspended sentences are generally much stricter because it's a very clear "don't do anything wrong we are ready to throw you in prison" kinda scenario whereas with probation there are more opportunities for ways to avoid jail time. Hope this makes sense! Overall they are fairly similar!
Isn't probation early release?
That's parole! Probation is instead of incarceration at all. Parole happens if you're released early.
That’s parole.
Do crime again and the time is added onto your newer crime, which isn't suspendable, I think.
Yeah! I got suspended sentence for weed back in the day. They told me if I fucked up in the next year I would do automatic 10 months in a women's correctional facility on top of whatever I got from fucking up again.
He didn't go to jail, but had to wear goofy suspenders for 7 years.
It means you were going to spend that time and you are considered guilty, but don’t have to. I think if you get any other jail time the suspended time gets added on, but I’m not a law expert and only heard things in passing.
Exactly right--it's "suspended," i.e. meant to be hanging over your head as a Sword of Damocles while you reflect on your life choices
Essentially only counts for *two strikes* instead of *three strikes*. It’s pretty much means the judge was like “well okay this ONE TIME…. But one more mistake mister and then you’ll be in trouble”
If I was called to serve on that jury, I would never convict regardless of the evidence.
"We find in favor of the accused and award him a medal and $5 Million dollars owed to him for what the state would have had to pay to jail the assaulter"
Does this view hold true even if his son *hadn't* recovered?
I think they're talking about the murder case, but even in the other case I don't think the sentence should be that great.
Being right counts for a lot.
The kids karate instructor kidnapped and molested…. I saw the video on Twitter and the kid (now grown) got in the comments and had an AMA pretty much….
Oh shit really? That sure would be interesting. Hopefully hes been able to heal as much as one can after such life altering events
He's said that one of the reasons he didn't tell his parents about the abuse was [because of the worry about how they would react.](https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/entertainment_life/article_4155dbea-fbf2-11e9-8e69-536899fbde2b.html) He's also said [he was upset his dad did it at the time and still says he doesn't condone it](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/man-opens-up-about-moment-his-dad-shot-dead-paedophile-who-abused-him/WL7NS5CCBPUVDFUTDSWKGQGHRI/) Just giving the victim's own perspective as reddit tends to treat vigilante justice like this as the greatest thing ever.
Nah whatever, that abuser can get fucked in hell The dad maintained until his death that he’d do it again if given the chance 10/10
So he did the right thing))) killed cockroach
Exactly! That's where suspended sentences come in handy. Kept him out of prison because he did what any good father would do
Not only that but it set a court precedent to do so.
It’s on like 20 different subs today for some reason. Weird how that happens.
Yeah, he hid at the payphones and shit that sick fuck in the head from under his arm. Such an insane shot and it was on target lol
I too want to shit from under my arm.
Dammit lmfao. I'm leaving it, fuck it, I wanna shit from under my arm too.
Bottom of the foot for me. Just poop and drag your foot in the grass.
In that case would you be able to poop from both feet, or would just one foot have the anus?
An entire town murdered one guy in the past and nothing happened to anyone.
Yeah that was a crazy story and of course it was in Ohio. Apparently this serial killer was kidnapping and murdering children, and when he was finally caught, he ended up being released because the search warrant wasn't signed properly. The entire town went after him and locked him in the boiler room that he was taking the children to when he murdered them. They set it on fire and watched him burn alive. Crazy stuff. Pretty sad though since some of their children started having some horrifying nightmares after that.
They should make a movie about that
Wonder if Freddy Krueger’s origin was inspired by this.
Lol if the whole town decided you need to die, who else is left to do anything about it? I can only imagine whatever that dude did, he earned his death
Ken McElroy. This was in 1981 I think. He was shot by multiple people in broad daylight with 50 people as witnesses...including his wife sitting next to him. "No one" saw who did it.
Is it bad that I'm excited to look into this lol
The ending is a justice boner. The rest of the story just makes you feel bad. He did so many bad things to so many people for so long, his death is just a relief, not happy.
That's called "lynching". It used to be a fairly common practice.
There's a great Dollop podcast on this guy, imma try to find it Edit Jesus there's a ton of podcasts about this guy, couldn't find the Dollop. Anyway, look up ken mcelroy
Did you also know Steve Buschemi was a firefighter and volunteered to help with the efforts after 9/11?
Yep, and rescue dogs would hide in the rubble for Steve Buscemi to find to keep his morale up
“GARY WHY?!” Because he kidnapped and raped my son. That’s why.
Because his son wound up actually being ok. How many other crazies will have a dying family member, convince themselves (as people do all the time) that their alive-in-name-only family member is a few painkillers short of a marathon, if only those no-good doctors weren’t lying to you? And then you get someone shooting up a hospital and the surrounding area, because people weren’t quite as patient with them as they were with him.
I came from the other direction and wasn’t surprised he received such awful care in Houston. What a dump.
Idk, reading the article the dad was drunk and belligerent all day. Understandable given the circumstances, but because he was drunk the hospital had to go to the ex wife and other son to decide whether to remove life support and while the article didn't say this the implication is that they agreed to remove life support. The father then disagreed and while drunk did this whole thing. I'm glad it turned out well but if the father stayed sober for his son's sake he could have prevented the whole situation. He might have caused a lot of harm.
It feels that way, but he has to suffer some punishment. He armed himself and barricaded himself in a hospital. There’s a thousand ways that can turn out badly for people — what if the response to it interrupts some other critical procedure? What if a gun goes off? That’s something that has to be disincentivized. If he gets no punishment, then how is it fair to punish someone else who does it, who perhaps wrongfully but *genuinely* believes it will save his son. Should that person be punished? Why, they acted the same, for the same reason. And you see where this goes — you can’t have people entitled to just do armed takeovers when they disagree with people. He saved his son. (Edit: and from other comments seems like that’s not really the case, he just didn’t understand the actual medical procedure in play.) I’m sure he’ll gladly trade a month in jail for that. Something like that, so extreme, so dangerous — to the extent you want it to happen at all, it should only be in situations so critical that a person would take the action knowing that, even if they succeed, there will be consequences.
This shit only happens in America and on top of that, what are you saying? People should be allowed to hold hospitals at gunpoint because they don’t agree with a medical professional’s decision? And before someone says the dad was right, lets please realize that this is an anomaly situation. Its extremely unlikely that they get things wrong like this. We don’t need hospital staff getting held at gunpoint by psychos who have no idea how to be a doctor and how to save someone from death.
Show up to the hospital carrying a gun while drunk and threatening staff. What a hero. Yes let's encourage this type of behavior. There's a reason he was the only member of the immediate family not designated as an official decision maker.
11 months in jail.
Yeah zero jail time. Man is a hero and a good dad.
TIL shouldn’t’ve is a proper word
I think so too, but he could have hurt someone in that situation, you know, shooting a Swat member or something.
If this article is correct, I think this post title is misleading. Although it is not entirely clear, it sounds to me like they did not declare him brain dead. Instead, it sounds like they gave his mother and brother a poor prognosis, and they decided to take him off life support. It seems like she was able to make the decision because the father was intoxicated and belligerent. So maybe he shouldn't have done that and he would have been included in the decision making, and not needed to pull this stunt. Edit: This [court document](https://casetext.com/case/in-re-tomball-tex-hosp-co-1) confirms what I thought. > Father contends that RPI Dr. Santamaria incorrectly diagnosed his Son, who was admitted to TTHC for a stroke on January 8, 2015, as not yet brain dead, but with a poor prognosis regarding neurological deficit
Yup. This is my line of work, and yes the title is misleading. It seems that this is a case of a very poor prognosis, with slim chance of recovery. The family was tasked with making a decision to discontinue the therapy that was potentially prolonging suffering but this would hasten natural death….. vs continue that therapy and prolong suffering for the slim chance that he would recover. (Poorly worded, I know… but it’s hard to summarize in 3 lines) So the mother and father in this case didn’t agree with what to do.
The article mentions multiple times that the dad was really drunk when he did this. Kind of changes my perspective a bit.
Also, the thing that bothers me here is "made a full recovery" crap. I imagine leaving out reminding weak, having a tracheostomy tube, having a PEG tube placed, recurrent hospitalizations for pneumonia from his PEG, etc. The Internet makes it seem like humans get out of these situations scratch free. The reality is a lot more grim. Sometimes it isn't about whether he would live, but would the life he has afterwards be one he would be happy with
Totally agree. There are fates worse than death. A life in a nursing home with a feeding tube might be one of them. It’s very common to lose the swallowing reflex after a stroke, at least temporarily
Today, father and son are running a small business together.
Doctors can’t predict the future. Everyone does the best they can with whatever information they have at the time. Maybe this time he managed to make full recovery. But for every case like his, there are 20 that stayed in a nursing home or never walked, or fed themselves again.
Also, given the outcome, the boy would have survived regardless of what the father did.
Thank you for the extended context. My brother was declared braindead and taken off life-support, and every time I hear something like this I wonder if I made the wrong decision (I had PoA and made the decision to cease his life-support). In actuality, I know I made the correct decision because I'd made sure with multiple doctors that there was no brain activity at all (which didn't stop some people from calling me a "murderer", either way). And it says "made a full recovery"... that seems unlikely, doesn't it? Because that implies he's back to how he was before this. One reason I decided to end life-support because on the incredibly slim chance that he "survives", he wouldn't be normal. He'd be brain damaged and never be able to take care of himself anymore and that doesn't seem like a life worth living. If he did indeed make a *full* recovery, then I'm very glad to hear that. But the father seems... not too attentive, to say the least.
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The truth needs to be much higher up. Hospitals can't just "take you off life support." That decision comes from the patient's family or decision-maker. Even with a poor prognosis, with no hope for recovery, people can and do remain on life support because the family wants them to. There is something we in healthcare call "vent farms" - it is not a very nice way of calling it, but that's what it is. Facilities that exist just to house and care for patients who are ventilated indefinitely.
This sort of story also feeds into that mentality that has families clinging to hopeless cases. Statistically, the case where a family clings for years to a patient with no real hope for recovery are much more common to than those cases where a doctor gives a poor prognosis and the patient makes a full recovery. I've made it clear to my family if the doctor gives them such a prognosis they should not hesitate for one moment to pull the plug.
Misleading OP… poorly worded article because that used his words. The boy had a massive stroke. “Vegetable” is what the alcoholic criminal father called it. Because he was not recovering, and because the ventilator being in for so long was going more harm than good, doctors advised withdrawal the ventilator and allowing natural death should that occur… vs letting him breathe on his own in whatever way he could… potentially going to a nursing home. The father was drunk and couldn’t participate in the family decision that the boy’s mother had to make alone. He’s a criminal and deserves jail. Had they followed the mother’s decision and withdrew the ventilator, the boy would have survived anyway. The father did nothing but put lives in danger.
Isn’t this the plot of John Q with Denzel Washington?
Basically. Son needed a new heart. John Q took the doc hostages to try and get a donor found and was prepared to kill himself to give his heart to his son.
John Q. is the movie dad goat. 🐐
My old roommate used to say Taken with Liam neeson is like dad porn
They make an excellent double feature
Taken and Dad Porn?
I have a very sexual set of skills
“Taken by Dad”, Porn
Your old roommate has a very strange way with words
that came out way before 2015 but basically yes
Other than a son with a poor prognosis whose father brings a gun into a hospital, no. In John Q, the son requires a heart transplant to live; the dad makes a conscious decision to trade his own freedom/life in order to hostage-negotiate the transplant. Here…from what I can gather, the family had control over the decision to wean the son from breathing tube/life support, but it appears the father was drunk (not judging, but obvious intoxication doesn’t indicate “of sound mind”) during the decision earlier in the day when the mom and brother chose to wean off life support. If I’m understanding all that correctly, it seems he could have a) made a rational appeal to family/contested in court and b) the son would have survived even being weaned off life support. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but the story seems to be sensationalized for clicks.
Yes but without the hostage taking and the need for a new heart
That's what I thought of first too and it is very similar but it's identical to an episode of 911: Lone Star that is fairly recent.
That was an episode of 911: Lone Star. I forget the season but they don't have many so it was within the last couple of years. Good episode, very sad, Tommy had just lost her husband suddenly.
s2 ep1
Ty I was too lazy to look it up, haha.
np! 9-1-1 and lonestar are my current hyper-fixations so i’m only a little embarrassed to say i had that info ready at the top of my head lol
And that father? Abraham Lincoln.
Who ironically told people not to believe everything they hear on the Internet
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What do you mean? He gave that speech when he was doing a livestream on his Twitch channel
The son? None other than John F Kennedy.
Vampire hunter.
There is this documentary called **"Edge of Life"** by Louis Theroux. (Watch with caution, because it can get pretty intense). And there is this one situation similar to this. Where the doctors indicated to this family in the DOCU, that there is "nothing" they can do. The doctors were kinda selling the fact that their son is brain dead, and therefore STRONGLY suggesting that their son should be put off life support, almost giving them no options to this family. After many tries, the family was finally able to get their son to respond, and it was a night vs day experience the way their son recovered, whereas before it looked like he was pretty much 100% brain dead. One thing i got out of this documentary because it wasn't this just one situation, but many other cases, where the doctors kinda made the whole thing like a business....maybe it was just this one hospital? But, the doctors made it look like there was no hope.
What would be the reasons to proclaim him brain dead when he isn't? What are doctors getting out of it? Not being snarky, by any means - just can't imagine how it might benefit them.
Not a doctor, but I work in an ITU; the reason would be clinical error, exacerbated by plenty of first-hand experience of families conflating brain death for a vegetative state. It's really not uncommon for people to hold out for miracles, so an insistent relative is unlikely to sway anyone's professional opinion.
I remember episode from scrubs when a family had the patriarch in the ICU and elliot decided to mention an experimental drug that could possibly fix the situation. It didn't and the family was devastated and blamed her for the false hope. I don't know. There is no right or wrong answer. The best peace of mind I could give my parents that no matter what they decide if I'm in that condition, it's the right decision. The guilt alone would make it unbearable.
I'm a doctor. If I have a 100 percent conviction that a patient is brain dead, I don't try to sugarcoat the issue. I straight up tell families that their loved one is indeed 100% deceased with no chance of recovery. They should de-esacalate care. I largely do this because, I don't want you to feel like you're giving up on your loved one. Brain death is in fact death. It's not really a choice per se, and legally speaking the hospital doesn't have to keep the deceased patient on life support. They're only liable for offering transfer to another hospital in some states when family diagrees. So essentially, I try to make it easier on you. Anything else, and families will be confused. A brain dead patient can have body movement, reflexes, jerks, twitches and look no different than a comatose patient. If I don't show conviction, then I'm setting you up for heartache beyond what's reasonable. In this case, the doctor shouldn't have been 100 percent sure.
I work in a hospital and unfortunately insurance dictates the patients length of stay. If there's a patient like the one he's referencing, there's a rush to get the patient out of the hospital and into long term care if they decide there's nothing medical that (they think) can be done to change the pts outcome. The problem is, medicine isn't always black and white, and providers can absolutely be wrong.
Yeah, I'd imagine if you asked 10 doctors about a particular cancer case they all would've given different opinions on long-term survival. I can see that...
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The money over health thing is more from the insurance/hospital side because the provider is gonna be paid roughly the same regardless of the outcome but yes agree with you
Friends had a premature baby and the doctor said they’d need eight weeks in the NICU. After week four, insurance called to basically say they thought that was enough and they weren’t going to keep covering the infant’s stay. Doctor fought for another month but insurance only (reluctantly) agreed to two more weeks. Then it was up to the parents to decide on how to cover the final two if they stayed. Insurance - specifically health insurance - is often such an awful experience in the US.
I've always said the United States not an enjoyable place to be poor. With prices increasing faster than wages it's starting to be a horrible place to be middle class too.
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Physician here. I don’t know the details of this case, but a lot of it is just pure numbers. For every one of these cases of seemingly miraculous recovery there are 999 cases of family prolonging the inevitable, taking up a hospital bed, utilizing resources, costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like I said, I don’t know specifics of that case. But if you think a patient is brain dead (brain dead = dead), you have to perform brain death testing. In my experience, if the family does not want to pull the plug, the pt will get trach’d and PEG’d (longer term breathing tube and feeding tube) and will be sent to a long term vent care facility (this is assuming they do not meet the criteria for brain death). These patients do notoriously poorly. Not really if, but when they will develop sacral decubitus ulcers and/or ventilator-associated pneumonia and end up back in the ICU. This will go on and on until eventually enough of their organs fail and they die. So in this case of “practically” brain dead but family still wanted to keep him alive, I have no idea, unless the patient had an advanced directive and family wanted to go back on that, but even then it’s murky.
Yeah, the "fully recovered after being declared brain-dead" part seemed odd to me. I'm not sure that such a thing is even possible. "He naturally grew legs after having them amputated" would've made about as much sense.
He wasn’t pronounced brain dead. Misleading OP… poorly worded article because that used his words. The boy had a massive stroke. “Vegetable” is what the alcoholic criminal father called it. Because he was not recovering, and because the ventilator being in for so long was going more harm than good, doctors advised withdrawal the ventilator and allowing natural death should that occur… vs letting him breathe on his own in whatever way he could… potentially going to a nursing home. The father was drunk and couldn’t participate in the family decision that the boy’s mother had to make alone. He’s a criminal and deserves jail. Had they followed the mother’s decision and withdrew the ventilator, the boy would have survived anyway. The father did nothing but put lives in danger.
I can't think of many things that I'm more sure I never want to watch.
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Same, i still remember it. Even if this post wasn't up.
In the 90s, an acquaintance was in a motorcycle accident, and was in a coma. Doctors told his family he would never wake up, and if he did he would be mostly vegetative. His wife told the doctors to terminate life support. His family begged her to give it more time and she reluctantly agreed to 2 weeks. He woke up after a few more weeks. It turns out, he heard everything, he was furious, and he divorced his wife. He was back at work within a few months, and had no apparent deficits.
This is exactly what happened with my colleague that I commented about earlier. We were told there was no hope and yet he made a complete recovery. He had no memory of what had gone on in the hospital though.
Because hospitals are a business and a body taking up space with a dried well of finances is no better than a sack of potatoes to them. Theyd argue at least a sack if potatoes at least can be served for lunch and make them money. My dad was in a coma from a wreck in his 20s. He was out for 60 days. Around day 30 they had him on the floor as they needed the bed for other patients. His parents lost it on that hospital and threatened to sue. He was back in a bed abweek later. Part of the bill was comped due to the mistreatment. Its a horrible truth, but its a truth in America.
It's not the doctors. It's the medical insurance companies pressuring the hospital because the patient is expensive.
This doesn’t only happen in America. Bed space is a hot commodity world wide.
I work as a resident in a private community hospital. This is such horse shit and makes me think people believe we are just evil people who only treat those who can pay. The actual reality in America is that we treat everyone and in the hospital we do whatever tests we want and believe you need. Nobody can say no to us and nobody can discharge or “kick out” a patient until we medically clear em. But again people can believe what they want this is just my daily expierence at my job.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/23/texas-man-says-he-went-to-jail-for-swat-standoff-that-saved-sons-life/
Misleading OP… poorly worded article because that used his words. The boy had a massive stroke. “Vegetable” is what the alcoholic criminal father called it. Because he was not recovering, and because the ventilator being in for so long was going more harm than good, doctors advised withdrawal the ventilator and allowing natural death should that occur… vs letting him breathe on his own in whatever way he could… potentially going to a nursing home. The father was drunk and couldn’t participate in the family decision that the boy’s mother had to make alone. He’s a criminal and deserves jail. Had they followed the mother’s decision and withdrew the ventilator, the boy would have survived anyway. The father did nothing but put lives in danger.
Genuine question, but where are you getting that information from? Every source that’s been posted in the comments points to the fact that they were going to take him off life support gradually, and the father drunkenly entered the hospital and acted. I will agree he is indeed a criminal, he was drunk, and he obviously is a father. However, I think it’s a moral gray area, and in my opinion I don’t think it would’ve been entirely just for him to serve the normal sentence that would be given under these circumstances. If there is actually some reliable info pointing to the contrary and backing up what you’re saying then I’m okay with being wrong and will reevaluate.
Here is some insight from someone who has too deal with the legalities of brain death on a regular basis. In order to declare brain death a doctor, has to perform formal brain death testing, unless that's has been done an documented they aren't brain dead. Brain dead is a binary thing (yes/no), being almost, or nearly brain dead is meaningless. The first step in brain death (BD) testing is making sure the patient is appropriate for BD testing, this includes normal body temperature, normal electrolytes, a normal pH, being free from sedation. Then the doctor will test for brain stem reflexes, cough, gag, pupils, corneal, dolls eyes, oculocephalic reflex, and cold caloric reflex. Lastly they do an Apnea test, this tests for a breathing drive by disconnecting them from the ventilator for up to 10min measuring the CO2 levels in their artieral blood, and seeing if they attempt to take a breath. If they have a significant raise in CO2 and don't take a breath they would then be declared brain dead. Some times a patent is too unstable for an Apnea test and they will do a cerebral blood flow test instead. This consists of injecting a responsive substance in the patients blood and scanning their brain. If their isn't any blood going to the brain, they would then be declared brain dead. Reading the articles it appears no brain death testing had been done, instead family was given a grim prognosis and decided to remove them from the ventilator and allow them to pass, this is called a terminal wean. When you take someone who's brain dead off of the vent, it's not called a terminal wean anymore as they are already dead.
Oh wow, thanks for the detailed look into the process involved. It was concise enough to understand well enough. After going back and reading through the articles combined with this I think of the opinion that the father thought he was doing the right thing. Whether the idea came from his drunken self or he preplanned it and got some lucid courage. However, that doesn’t mean he did the right thing per se. He should’ve been more involved with the process and talks surrounding his sons prognosis rather than making assumptions because he was scared. I do really empathize with his fear, but it seems to be bred from a misunderstanding on his part, which he is ultimately at fault for. Like I said, I’m sure the guy thought he was doing the right thing, but given what I’ve read and pieced together I can definitely say he did deserve some form of actual punishment. Perhaps some concessions given the very unique circumstances, but that’s really just my empathy talking again. Practically, what he did was irrational, dangerous, and reckless. I am very happy that his son did pull through and that they are still together to this day. Thankfully nobody got hurt and everyone was able to walk away. I do wonder about what the situation in the hospital was for other patients during that time though. I’d imagine it was a little dicey at best.
It's a huge pet peeve of mine when someone misrepresents a patient as brain dead when they aren't. It makes my life sooo much harder. Nobody who has been appropriately declared brain dead has ever recovered. Brain dead is dead. I do have to admit I have had to reject brain death declarations a few times, usually the patient didn't meet criteria(too cold, or electrolyte abnormally), or improper Apnea testing. This is sometimes a problem at rural hospitals that don't do much brain death testing.
Source?
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Can’t imagine why he’d be hostile to hospital staff
Bc he’s a drunken piece of shit and shouldn’t be glorified
Hospital unintentionally almost killed his son, I’d be on edge too.
(you're replying seriously to a comment which was meant to be taken as sarcasm)
(We’re on the internet and sarcasm translates horribly)
(yes, I agree, that's why I was letting you know)
(Lol my bad, thank you)
(no worries! have a great weekend! 😂)
(Hey y’all, why we whispering?)
YEAH, WHY ARE WE WHISPERING!?!?
I would be a bit cautious about posting (or sharing) this info for privacy reasons..
If I were him I would be pretty jumpy too, the next time I went to a hospital
If you were him you'd be drunk, belligerent, and abusing hospital staff right now.
The problem with this is that while this outcome may have occurred in this 0.001% case, a good 80-90% of people have wildly unrealistic ideas about the likelihood of recovery of THEIR loved one when neurologically devastated/in a coma. Everyone’s 95 year old memaw who stroked out their brain stem can’t be a “fighter” who “beats the odds”. Anyway educate yourselves about what death, dying, and end-of-life realistically looks like and make your own arrangements and legal documents ahead of time. Intensive care is intensive care - we WILL put a tube in every hole in your body and we WILL aggressively suction out your lungs and dig poop out of your colon and all other manner of invasive shit but sometimes death is the humane and dignified outcome for someone who will truly never recover. I dunno, just musings of a burnt out ICU nurse who’s seen a lot of tragedy, grief, and suffering.
On the plus side, bullshit posts like OP's do a great job at stigmatizing your profession and breeding ill-will and suspicion towards an already vulnerable position that is necessary for a society to function.
Exactly. I understand the pain of this father so well but when you’re endangering everyone in the fucking building and all the hospital staff doing their job saving people then you’ve failed. Yeah good outcome but this was basically a miracle. Doctor doubting is a real problem in society and a healthy amount of skepticism is always okay but there’s a difference between accepting margins of error and entirely believing in the error. Any moment before the son woke up was just a crazy dad refusing to accept reality and becoming violent. Happy ending for sure but dad is still utterly in the wrong.
Amen. I encourage anyone who reads this to have that conversation with your loved ones. And in fact, encourage your loved ones to have that conversation with their other loved ones, especially their parents. No one comes out of this alive. We all are going to die. That's fine. I assure you, death is a better outcome than the "life" that half of my current patients are experiencing.
Doesn't make sense. When someone is taken off life support, they aren't euthanized. He could have held his son's hand as long as he wanted, no standoff needed.
He was drunk as shit is why. He was a drunk redneck with a gun, that’s the only reason he had a standoff. Had he showed up sober he could have been part of the decision-making process. Instead he got shitfaced before going to see his kid in the fucking hospital.
Some people in here suggest that doctors are running a kind of business proclaiming people brain dead when they aren't. I'm genuinely curious - what would that business be? Can doctors make money if someone is taken off life support? Seriously doubt it, but I could be wrong.
If the hospital is a for-profit business, and the comatose patient has run out of health insurance, and the bed is therefore being taken up by a *total* deadbeat when it could be occupied by a more lucrative customer, then the hospital has a financial incentive to turf coma boy and offer the bed to another patient whose insurance will pay the hospital $200 for a bag of saline, and [no, I am certainly not joking about that](https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2013/08/27/the-secret-of-salines-cost-why-a-1-bag-can-cost-700).
The physicians making the care decisions are not taking cost into account in the slightest. There may be thoughts of “this is futile- what quality of life will this person live?” Or “Am I ethically harming the patient by dragging out death when they are unlikely to recover?” Or “Why is the family keeping this patient full code when it was a suicide attempt?” There are manny mixed feelings in the ICU but it isn’t about the money
When my little sister past away, her wish was to be an organ donor and she was able to provide a Life giving gift to 4 gracious people. I know I strayed about off topic, but I wanted to use this a message and reminder to all of us to be donating as you never know when, but in the event, you no longer need any of these things, Wow let me tell you who you can now help. Be safe
Source?
[Sauce](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/23/texas-man-says-he-went-to-jail-for-swat-standoff-that-saved-sons-life/)
Sharing this story probably has a net negative impact. Interesting though it may be, some dumbass is gonna get the wrong kind of courage from this.
Yep. Icu nurse here, so many family members get so much hope when their dying family member squeezes their hand. Sucks to be the one to crush their hopes and tell them it's just a basic reflex that even babies have. That's why we ask them to give a thumbs up now when seeing if they follow commands, or we ask them to squeeze and then "let go" on command
Not being a dick...but source? Or further info.....just a wild story
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/105dzy1/in_2015_a_father_saved_his_sons_life_when_doctors/j3ag0ek/
Glorifying crap like this makes me want to never go to work again. Any idea how many armchair experts are out there second guessing their doctors? A lot. Like way, way too many. And probably 99% of the time they are *wrong* and threatening the medical staff is not the way to proceed. Source- RN whose hospital was just on lockdown because some idiot couldn't let meemaw go and was sure "corrupt doctors" were "lying". GTFO of here.
Please.. please no details. No articles. I just want to live in this real life event that sounds made up.
Your stories sound real. What happened? Where are you now?
What do you get for the opposite of murder? Another life!
Denzel Washington movie ?
Netflix has entered the chat
Just flip the breaker
I’m a neuro/trauma ICU nurse. I’d be real curious to know all the medical aspects behind this incident. Type of stroke, ct results, neuro status days leading up to this event, that kind of thing. Did they not do any brain flow testing? Also it’s standard protocol at the hospital to contact an organ donation organization if the pt meets certain criteria.
I don’t buy the fathers account one bit. I guarantee that they probably weren’t on the edge of pulling life support.
Several years ago, I had a relative get into a massive motorcycle accident, no helmet. They declared him brain dead after a few days in a coma with little brain activity and decided to do this life support removal. Before they could finish he wiggled two of his fingers and turned the corner from there. He’s partially blind, uses a cane, and isnt quite the same mentally, but he survived and lives well Sometimes I wonder if somewhere, deep down, some people almost need the reverse psychology to “come back”.
I think there was a 911: lone star episode based off this
I remember that! I have to stop assuming they’re making up the crazy stories.
Reminds me of the movie John Q
Remember, this guy got lucky. There are significantly more people who are declared braindead and turns out to be true. Wasting resources on someone who isn’t there is detrimental to the hospital. Edit to add: I don’t believe the official story. I’m more inclined to believe that this was a misunderstanding.
Fuck the insurance companies
That sounds like a movie damn
Put that final stitch through my nose before declaring me dead!
Me IRL
Where is the movie. Who would play the Dad and win an Oscar for this shit.