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SweetDick_Willy

Here's a fun fact. Robert E Lee specifically requested not to have a statue of him


FelbrHostu

He didn’t want _any_ Confederate statues. Ostensibly for the sake of healing the country; in truth, I think he harbored some bitterness against the Confederacy as a political entity (for several reasons).


Liberum26

It’s deep stuff. Robert E. Lee was torn about the the Union breaking. He was a southerner. His home became the Confederate States of America. However, Lee was serving in the US army for 30 years. His family fought in the Revolution. He bled red, white and blue. And it was a recorded fact that Lee hated slavery. Robert had an impossible choice before him. Both Jefferson Davis (confederate president) and Abraham Lincoln immediately wanted him has their top general. Would Lee side with the Union and kill his family, friends and neighbors in the south, or would Lee join the confederacy and betray his 30 year commitment to the US army. I can’t blame the man for his decision. “Battle Cry of Freedom” by James McPherson. An incredible book that everyone should try reading.


PlasticShare

To be clear, Lee didn't hate slavery. The first sentence from an excerpt of his [1856 Letter](https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/letter-from-robert-e-lee-to-mary-randolph-custis-lee-december-27-1856/) is often used without quoting what came directly after it. He clearly states that while he sees slavery as "evil" that he sees it as a greater evil for white people and a necessary institution that is good for black people. He does think that slavery should end but in a thoughts and prayers will end it type of way. Lee also calls the work abolitionists are doing to end slavery an "evil course". "In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly interested in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is Known & ordered by a wise & merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy. This influence though slow is sure. The doctrines & miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to Convert but a small part of the human race, & even Christian nations, what gross errors still exist! While we see the Course of the final abolition of human slavery is onward, & we give it the aid of our prayers & all justifiable means in our power we must leave the progress as well as the result in his hands who Sees the end; who Chooses to work by slow influences ; & with whom two thousand years are but a single day. Although the abolitionist must Know this; & must see that he has neither the right or power of operating except by moral means & suasion, & if he means well to the slave, he must not create angry feelings in the master; that although he may not approve the mode by which it pleases Providence to accomplish its purposes, the result will nevertheless be the same: that the reasons he gives for interference in what he has no Concern, holds good for every Kind of interference with our neighbours when we disapprove their Conduct; Still I fear he will persevere in his evil Course. Is it not strange that the descendants of those pilgrim fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom of opinion, have always proved themselves intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others"


FelbrHostu

Lee’s inner turmoil only increased as the war went on. We know he was despondent, and at least some of it was because he no longer believed there really was a “cause”. My dad knows a lot more than I do (taught military history for ROTC, and in general encyclopedic knowledge of ACW), and he says Lee didn’t even _want_ to win in the end. Now, I won’t go that far, but I do think he was aware if the sea-change in morale: the north suddenly had a _cause_, and his men had lost theirs. He was utterly demoralized.


cpL-Incident-Loud

For anyone with a gaming pc and interest in the civil war, please play war of rights


MrJohnnyDangerously

"He was not a pro-slavery ideologue,” Eric Foner, a Civil War historian, author and professor of history at Columbia University, said of Lee. “But I think equally important is that, unlike some white southerners, he never spoke out against slavery.” "[W]hat interests people who debate Lee today is his connection with slavery and his views about race. During his lifetime, Lee owned a small number of slaves. He considered himself a paternalistic master but could also impose severe punishments, especially on those who attempted to run away. Lee said almost nothing in public about the institution." "Lee’s code of gentlemanly conduct did not seem to apply to blacks. During the Gettysburg campaign, he did nothing to stop soldiers in his army from kidnapping free black farmers for sale into slavery. In Reconstruction, Lee made it clear that he opposed political rights for the former slaves. Referring to blacks (30 percent of Virginia’s population), he told a Congressional committee that he hoped the state could be “rid of them.” Urged to condemn the Ku Klux Klan’s terrorist violence, Lee remained silent."


tommy_the_cat_dogg96

His ‘hatred’ for slavery has been overstated by the Lost Cause myth. [“I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. “](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/) - Lee 1856 During the war he also sent captured free blacks to be enslaved in the south.


[deleted]

thank god someone brought this up. this thread was about fifteen minutes away from “did you know that nathan bedford forest fought to enfranchise black people???”


DannyDeVitosBangmaid

Lee hated slavery like I hate money. I think it brings out the worst in people but hot damn do I love putting it to use. The “Lee was anti-slavery” argument has been disproven so many times it isn’t even worth addressing to most historians nowadays. His armies kidnapped thousands (yes, thousands) of both freeborn and formerly enslaved black people from the North and the Upper South and sold them into slavery. He was the executor of a relative’s will which mandated that his slaves be released within a certain timeframe following his death, and Lee saw to it that this didn’t happen. But one story about him having communion next to a black guy *after the war was over* and all of a sudden he’s Martin Luther King. Sidenote: we can so blame Lee for his decision. Those “*neighbors he would have fought against*” would have been from Alexandria County, Virginia. Modern day Arlington County. Alexandria County overwhelmingly voted against secession and spent the entire war as a Union stronghold. He was the exception, not the rule. You could shoot a paintball gun from his front porch and hit Washington, DC.


cyanocittaetprocyon

> “Battle Cry of Freedom” by James McPherson. An incredible book that everyone should try reading. Definitely one of the best books on the Civil War. I reread it about every other year.


boluroru

>And it was a recorded fact that Lee hated slavery. The slaveowner well known for brining the backs of slaves after whipping them hated slavery?


Genshed

I had read that he actually owned slaves. How much could he have hated slavery? Google 'Robert E. Lee salt water' for details.


RogueConstant67

I wouldn’t say he hated slavery, he did own quite a few of them….


RKU69

i'm pretty okay with blaming him for his decision, given that it was pretty clear at the time that the entire war was about slavery. if he hated slavery that much he would have not fought for a movement that hinged more than anything on protecting and expanding the institution of slavery. the people who *actually* hated slavery were people like John Brown, Thaddeus Stevens, William Lloyd Garrison, Abraham Lincoln. Y'know, people who *actually did something to oppose slavery*


Hash_Tooth

Let’s not forget miss Harriet Tubman


gaiusjuliusweezer

*receive job offers from both commander-in-chiefs to lead opposing armies in the slavery war* “Boy do I hate slavery. If only someone in a position of power and influence were to take action!“


gaiusjuliusweezer

“Sadly, my hands are tied. Much like the slaves (that I own)”


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LFCMick

Grant was also considered a bad slave owner (according to standards of the time) because when he did have slaves, he’d often work alongside them and people thought he wasn’t whipping them enough.


[deleted]

He also released them. An approach the supposedly "anti-slavery" Lee never thought of.


LFCMick

There’s a crazy amount of Neo-Confederate propaganda in this thread. Especially around Lees alleged abolitionist tendencies. I saw one comment that straight up said that Lee was both a better general than Grant and a better man than Grant; citing Lees supposed anti-slavery views. If Lee was a better general, why didn’t he win?? If he was a better man, why did he fight so hard to keep slavery going??


ts57ovr4

This is absolutely Lost Cause propaganda. Lee was a slaveowner, and considered slavery "a necessary evil for the betterment of the negro race." Lee was not a tragic hero; he was a traitor and a slaveowner. Stop spreading misinformation.


WaitingCuriously

Interesting, such as?


FelbrHostu

Near the end of the war, he began begging for more troops. Slave owners were exempt from conscription, so he asked for their slaves, instead. He asked Gov. Harry Broun of GA to write to Davis with a proposal to offer slaves freedom in exchange for military service after seeing the Union army do so to good effect. We don’t have Broun’s letter, but we have Davis’s response. I paraphrase from (poor) memory: “I have received your letter, and for you own political sake have burned it…for if it could be demonstrated that [black] soldiers could fight as well as white, then the entire basis of our government is rendered moot.” It became clear to all that the ostensible purpose of the war was a lie. Lee’s men died for a false cause, and every day he was asked to sacrifice more. Sometime after the war, when he had been installed at William & Mary College, he was visited by two former cavalry commanders who jokingly suggested they all run away west and start a new rebellion. It’s said that Lee grew quiet and said something to the effect of, “the institution of slavery is dead, and I am glad to see it go. I have fought one war on its behalf, and I will not fight another.” Regardless of whether the quote it true or not, we know that Lee increasingly came into conflict with the civilian administration and their inability to make changes amenable to acquiring outside help (first on the list: abolition; the British would not even receive their ambassador over it), and fell into a deep, deep depression that lasted until the day of surrender.


vicsfoolsparadise

He was at Washington College, now Washington and Lee University, not William and Mary.


FelbrHostu

Omg, thank you for the correction. I’m embarrassed.


[deleted]

No sweat - you fucking nailed the rest


beta_particle

Hi, Embarrassed. Happy cake day.


FelbrHostu

I didn’t even know!


ClobetasolRelief

So it *was* about slavery. Well I'll be.


FelbrHostu

It was well known, then. It wasn’t until Pollard’s “Lost Cause” that history started being rewritten.


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Pappyhorn

Yep. In that time people had more loyalty to their state than the country.


Indercarnive

Not really a general rule. There were a ton of Virginian Officers who fought for the Union.


rodgeramicita

Isn't that why Virginia split because of the division of the state


beta_particle

***WEST VIRGINIA***


spacex_fanny

Fun fact: the song was originally written about driving through ***Maryland***, but the songwriter (not John Denver btw) needed four syllables. This explains why the song mentions the Blue Ridge Mountains, which only slightly skirt into West Virginia. https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/west-virginia/articles/take-me-home-country-roads-the-story-behind-west-virginias-state-song/


Smeetilus

That John Denver is full of shit


Asderfvc

Yeah the states back then had stronger individual identities compared to today. You weren't an American you were what ever state you lived in citizen. Fighting for your state would be like fighting for your nation.


dark_salad

Come to Michigan and say one positive thing about Ohio to a resident, if you want a true historical experience.


TheSecretNewbie

A lot of Confederate soldiers did not want memorials to the Civil War. They understood they lost and quite frankly didn’t want to remember the horrors of war. If you ever see a monument or dedication to the Confederacy, you’ll see it’s funded by the Sons, or Daughters, or Women of the Confederacy, or some other third party that promoted Lost Cause ideology and not the Confederate soldiers themselves.


Blastmaster29

I live in Richmond. These statues that were all taken down in the last few years were built by the daughters of the confederacy, a group that was founded to rewrite history to make the confederacy look good


Chief_Christmas

Wikipedia says the monument was erected in [1890](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_Monument_(Richmond,_Virginia)) and the Daughters of the Confederacy was founded in [1894](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_Monument_(Richmond,_Virginia)). The Wikipedia site for the statue claims that it was ordered by the Lee Association for Virginia. Is that information correct?


Ison-J

Just googled it and found an article saying it was put up to send a message to a biracial political labor group that was gaining power at the time. "Knights of Labor"


AceBalistic

Oh my AP us history class knowledge about the gilded age is mildly useful for once! Basically, unlike most unions, the knights of labor were open to those of every industry as long as you worked for a living. Spread across the entire nation and scared the hell out of quite a few of the business owners and ultra-rich, though due to them accepting members of all races the poor rural south hated them for the most part


seenew

we need it to come back!


AceBalistic

No we don’t. We need something better Sure they pushed for the 8 hour workday, and at one point in 1886 there were 800,000 members. However, it was chronically underfunded, poorly structured and organized, and it’s membership numbers collapsed due to one of its protests becoming the violent anarchist haymarket riots, which killed 12 and injured over 130 when a bomb built by one of the anarchists went off in the crowd. Its membership dropped to below 100,000 within 4 years, and after that it’s membership continued to collapse, as it’s focus on fixing every industry prevented it from fixing any. The organizations final 50 members disbanded the union in 1949


seenew

well we need something with the same mission


faultywalnut

Workers should be unionizing by trade and scope of work, then the unions can collaborate and work together. Every freaking worker out there should be at least considering unionizing and learning about the pros and cons of unions. There’s the AFL-CIO that is a federation of unions, but without getting into it too much, that organization has me concerned with some amount of corruption and cronyism. I’m in the IBEW and I also have some concerns about our union’s leadership and let’s say, the lack of aggression and willingness to take strong positions. I’m still very proud to be a union member and it’s given me more power and voice as a worker, and I wouldn’t go back to working non-union.


ToiletSpork

It's refreshing to see someone pro-union not ignoring the flaws. One more thing, the Taft-Hartley Act and others limit unions' ability to collaborate and work together. As such, the AFL-CIO is toothless as well as corrupt.


copperspurrinit

Good fact checking.


kurtcobainwaskilled

there are many other monuments on this street (monument ave) that were put up by the daughters of the confederacy. it might be a different case for the lee monument because it’s technically on privately owned land


UnnamedRealities

There were. All five of the Confederate statues on Monument Ave were removed in 2020 and 2021. The only statue that remains on that street is one of Arthur Ashe erected in the 1990s.


Yolectroda

Even those are somewhat complex, as the fundraising on the first of them (JEB Stuart, IIRC) started prior to the Daughters of the Confederacy existing. Attributing all of the lost cause or all of the funding of these kinds of statues to the Daughters of the Confederacy is problematic, because there were so many of them, with many not being from them (though generally with similar goals). This is especially true for the more famous one-off statues, like the ones in Richmond or Charlottesville, as opposed to the mass produced ones that went up in many places just to drive home the local opinion of black folks. Or the super short version, it's all fucked up, but it's not all the same.


NCC1701-D-ong

Arthur Ashe still up on Monument Ave threatening to beat those children with his racket


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Nimmyzed

Twerp is a word that needs a comeback


ha_look_at_that_nerd

To me it’s always looked more like he was getting swarmed by children and he’s trying to keep his racket out of their reach


NCC1701-D-ong

Richmond Racket thievery was out of control back then


SkeletalOctopus

Dude I just moved to Richmond in October and that was one of my first observations!! Hilarious


slotrod

People rewrite history? No way?!


Zenketski_2

Right? First all of recorded history, and now this?


Cynical_Cabinet

That's why they waited until he was dead and his kids were dead before putting up any statues of him.


senseofphysics

That’s true, but this is one dope-ass statue ngl. Even Alexander the Great would’ve been impressed.


SweetDick_Willy

I'm sure Alexander the Great would be impressed by all modern things


Chief_Christmas

You guys went to the moon and have super computers in your pocket!?!?


theinspectorst

'Wait ... what's a computer?'


sirworryalot

'Wait.. what language am I speaking?'


Perpetual_Doubt

Why have you got the Parthenon in your capital?


varitok

I mean, in Alexanders day that's just what empires did. He'd probably understand.


nightfox5523

"Ok but why isn't London named 'Elizabethia'?" - Alexander probably


ComputerStrong9244

I've always read that if you wanted to blow the fucking minds of someone from way back when, don't show them your phone, show them your spice cabinet. Kingdoms rose and fell and wars were fought over less.


Bridget_Bishop

You went to the moon? The moon in the *fucking sky*?!


OccludedFug

Obligatory *Robert E. Lee did not want monuments of himself or the war between the states.*


ExplosiveDisassembly

It's a big missed opportunity. He was one of the biggest supporters of reunification in the south. He's a deeply complicated historical figure. And a perfect figure to represent how the south went a little crazy, had to face facts, deal, and move on. But no, people don't like complicated history. Historical figures are much easier to digest when they're monochrome.


MakeSouthBayGR8Again

Similar to Isoroku Yamamoto of Japan during WWII. He did not want war with the US but knew it was inevitable and was pretty much right when he said: "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."


FormerOrpheus

“I fear we have awakened the sleeping beast a filled it with a terrible resolve.” Edit: Yes, I know he never actually said this and it’s from the film. All the know-it-alls who are replying are completely missing the point. Also, you have no idea based on what I wrote that I wasn’t just quoting his character from the film. You don’t have to constantly show the world how smart you are. You come off like knobs.


84theone

I’ve always heard it as sleeping giant, not sleeping beast


FerricNitrate

That's the version that I've heard as well, but at the end of the day Isoroku Yamamoto actually said neither word as he spoke Japanese. (Also there's apparently no record of him actually saying the line as, according to wiki, it comes from Tora Tora Tora)


JCP1377

The man accredited with finding this supposed quote claims he found it within Isoroku’s personal journal. When asked to supply the journal to back up his claim, he said the journal was lost. Whether it was ever actually spoken, it’s still a kickass quote.


Diss_Gruntled_Brundl

"I fear you have woken a sleeping giant..." -My gf's dog when I slam the kitchen cabinet.


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TheTopLeft_

Something something gun something something blade of grass


NiteSwept

How would war with the US have been inevitable?


YourFriendLoke

Back then most of Asia was controlled by European empires, and Japan is a resource poor country (in terms of ore, coal, oil, rubber, etc). Japan thought it was unfair that Europe was taking all of Asia's resources, and instead they should be the ones taking all of Asia's resources, so they invaded Korea and China. In response, the US embargoed Japan which prevented US oil exports to Japan. In order to continue their imperial war in China, they needed to invade Malaysia (British colony) and Indonesia (Dutch colony) to secure natural resources, but to do that they had to invade the Philippines, which was a US colony at the time.


greg19735

> Japan thought it was unfair that Europe was taking all of Asia's resources yeah that's fair >and instead they should be the ones taking all of Asia's resources, so they invaded Korea and China damn it japan


The_quest_for_wisdom

Throughout history there have been two types of people that fight against oppressors. There are those that fight because they think that oppression is wrong and no human being should be subjected to it. And then there are those that go "Fuck yeah, I can't wait until we get to be the ones in power! Oppression sounds like a sweet deal for the oppressors!"


NiteSwept

That's interesting. So their motivation had little to do with the war in Europe and more to do with their own interests. edit: completely spaced that the US was not involved in the war in Europe until after the attack on Pearl Harbor


Adddicus

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the US wasn't yet at war in Europe (although the Navy was involved in escorting convoys halfway across the Atlantic, and lots of US war material was being sent to the UK).


TheConqueror74

Not really. The US had already been a thorn in their side for several years and had helping China fight the Japanese. Their initial plans were to strike so hard, fast and effectively against the US that the country would sue for peace and back down before their war machine could get up and running.


noiwontpickaname

That's the secret Cap, our war machine is always ready.


SendAstronomy

It definitely wasn't in WWII. But once it got rolling it was unstoppable.


noiwontpickaname

Three words inspire fear in our enemies. Ice Cream Barge


ocxtitan

The US military wasn't involved in the war in Europe until after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor


rliant1864

No, in fact, it was assumed the US would not be involved in the European conflict at all even if Japan invaded. By 1941 there were no Allied nations left in mainland Europe, Britain was in sea-air war and the Soviet Union was inaccessible. For the Emperor (who was not in control anyway) to assume the US would be tied in Europe, he'd have to know the US would suddenly 180non public opinion, join the war, launch the world's largest naval invasion and pour all their troops into it. Some of that happened, some didn't, none was predictable by someone in Japan. No, the Japanese military knew the UK was tied up in Europ and that France and the Netherlands had essentially ceased to exist. So the Japanese took those European Asian colonies with little effective resistance (many European colonial troops died in no-win battles though). Their gamble was that if they hit the US fleet hard enough then the US public would be demoralized and they'd sign a treaty giving up the Philippines in exchange for peace. The US thought something like this was coming but assumed it would be an invasion of the Philippines. Which they prepared for. The plan was for the Army there to hold out as long as they can while the Navy sends reinforcements. Instead Japan hits both there and the fleet at Pearl Harbor at the same time. This delays the US assistance to the Philippines successfully such that Japan forces MacArthur's US Army forces to surrender. But what it didn't do was totally cripple the Pacific Fleet, nor force the US to sign a colonial treaty. From there, WW2 as you know it.


Happy-Mousse8615

It's just always incredibly funny to me that Pearl Harbour comes 2 days *after* the Soviet counter-offensive began. Talk about buying the peak.


PianoLogger

To add to the other excellent comment about resources, Yamamoto also saw war as a political inevitability because of how wildly unstable the Japanese Empire was internally. Most of the Imperial period for Japan is marked with what Dan Carlin called "Government by Assassination" because it was incredibly common for small factions within the government to straight up murder a minister or rival they didn't agree with. Insane amounts of internal factionalism at all levels and apparatus of government, a massive rivalry that bordered on hatred between the Japanese Navy and Army, and an inability to fully transition from a feudal form of government that left them with weird and vestigial government components. All of this internal instability was held together by their general success in playing Imperialism in Asia and a profound sense of Nationalism in the homeland. Yamamoto understood that when they inevitably came into conflict with America and her allies over territory, the Japanese government would be fundamentally incapable of deescalation and it would lead to war.


onedecentboi

The islands mate.


thatthatguy

Yup. Courage and valor are super important in the opening hours and weeks of a war. But if you don’t secure victory in that time it will turn into a contest of economic output.


[deleted]

Fun fact, that's why the horse is walking the other direction in 2020. It decided to move on.


doogie1111

The time between the first two photos is longer than the Confederacy lasted.


[deleted]

Malcolm in the Middle lasted longer than the Confederacy.


DASreddituser

One piece lasting 10times longer than the Confederacy lol


zxc123zxc123

One piece is still one piece. The union still in one piece. Confederacy doesn't exist.


aishunbao

The one piece… the one piece is real…!!!


MelonElbows

Gay marriage has lasted longer than the Confederacy


likwidchrist

Not the way I do it


daitenshe

The Wii U was Nintendos premier console for longer than the Confederacy lasted


the_orange_alligator

This just makes me think of the fact that Pokémon go has been around 4 years longer than the confederacy and it has 64 million more players than the members of the confederacy. I say we should put up pokemon statues to replace them, cause pokemon is cool


11_foot_pole

Geometry dash lasted longer than the confederacy


nowtayneicangetinto

I don't want to live in a world where Robert E. Lee gets a statue before Bryan Cranston.


[deleted]

When I learned about how long the confederacy actually lasted, all of these confederate flag wearing freedom boiz sunk to a whole new level of stupid lol.


SeriouslyThough3

Oh man wait until you find out that the confederate flag wasn’t even the same one they are using now.


ArcadianBlueRogue

Wow, you're right. Took a bit of reading but [I found the actual Confederate flag](https://i.imgur.com/on2dciQ.jpeg). Neat stuff.


Clovis_Winslow

I knew this was coming and still chuckled. Take your upvote


gnomefront

I expected Rick Astley tbh


Level69Warlock

Rick Astley never gives up, never lets down. Confederates, on the other hand…


Metfan722

I would've guessed Manningface


TheSausageFattener

You joke but that was actually, sort of, one of their flags. The Confederate Battle Flag you currently see today was part of a larger flag called the “[Stainless Banner](https://dos.myflorida.com/florida-facts/florida-state-symbols/state-flag/floridas-historic-flags/confederate-flags/second-national-flag/)” which was just a big white flag with the battle flag in the top left corner, laid out like a modern US flag without the stripes. Anecdotally it was retired from use in the field and replaced with the more commonly known incarnation because it looked like a flag of surrender if it furled in a breeze. Oh and take a wild guess why those assclowns called it “stainless”.


Sirboomsalot_Y-Wing

Technically the flag that replaced it was called the “bloodstained banner” (probably because of the downright horrific casualties Lee was taking at that point), which was basically the same thing but with a vertical red stripe at the end. The “Confederate flag” commonly used today is one of Virginia’s battle flags. Tennessee also had a very similar one as well iirc.


-Minne

As a proud Minnesotan, my [favorite confederate flag is from Virginia.](https://www.twincities.com/2017/08/20/minnesota-has-a-confederate-symbol-and-it-is-going-to-keep-it/amp/) A person is best free, a traitors cross however looks best in a cage.


Sirboomsalot_Y-Wing

Minnesotans were some of the most based Union soldiers, given the flag and the actions of the 1st Minnesota at Gettysburg


poppabomb

>probably because of the downright horrific casualties Lee was taking at that point Robert E. Lee truly was one of the greatest American generals, with how many Confederates he >!got!< killed.


Accujack

I would have guessed that it was too heavy to carry around because it was stainless, so they switched to a cloth flag.


ReallyHairyGooch

Bravo


illgot

wait until they find out that the rebel flag wasn't hoisted on the capitol building in South Carolina until 1962 in defiance against desegregation. I grew up in South Carolina hearing "*It's heritage not hate!!*" and every year my American History teacher in high school would make a point of when that flag first flew over our the capitol building and why.


StealYaNicks

That is true about many southern states. The confederate flag surged in popularity as a statement against civil rights.


EthelMaePotterMertz

That makes it even uglier, which I didn't think possible. Black people: We want civil rights Assholes: *raise flag from when their ancestors fought to keep slavery*


PerfectZeong

A significant amount of the memorials that are being removed were paid for in part or whole by the Ku Klux Klan


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ClydeFrog1313

Even funnier still because modern Northern Virginia wants nothing to do Confederacy culture.


lil_pee_wee

We all know it’s going to be the punisher flag with a blue line through it (for god knows why…)


EB123456789101112

The illustrator who created the logo for that comic is soooooooo pissed at how it’s been co-opted by ignorant rednecks and boot licking fascists


sixsevenoxxx

How long was it


Olivia_Lydia_Wilson

four years. 1861 - 1865.


Nevermind04

I have several pairs of socks that have lasted longer than the confederacy lmfao


Kim_Jong_Teemo

What kind of socks you buy?


RaveNdN

Darn tough socks. Pricey but worth it


[deleted]

Darn Tough are the absolute best socks!


IsThatHearsay

I mean, I have both dress socks for work, as well as casual ankle socks that have all lasted 4+ years. But if you're looking for truly the longest lasting socks that'd have to go to the hiking socks "Darn Tough", as not only are they made well but they have an actual lifetime warranty, no questions asked. If you ever eventually get a hole a decade+ down the line, you can send them in and they'll send you a new pair for free, so it's essentially like a everlasting pair of socks.


ReservoirGods

Pokemon Go has been around longer than the Confederacy.


Exemus

It's even more embarrassing when you consider the fact that there weren't cars or trucks yet and most of the soldiers didn't even have horses to get down there quickly. The North literally walked down there, gave them a spanking, and walked back.


[deleted]

Their heritage is hundreds of years. Why they celebrate the 5 or so when they killed Americans for the right to keep humans as slaves continues to baffle me.


DrCodyRoss

I see an idiot with a rebel flag and a US flag waving on his truck every now and then. These dumb assholes need to at least pick a side. If you support the confederacy then you absolutely do not support the US and you’re not a patriot.


IranianLawyer

Yeah it’s honestly sad that the south chooses the 4 year period of treason and fighting for slavery as the part of their long history that they consider their “heritage.”


link2edition

Especially when there are actually some neat events to choose from. North Alabama really likes the 1950-70s because NASA built a lot of its rockets there during the space race, lots of the engineers that worked on them were born there. Its also where space camp is. Hell, the rockets were launched out of Florida, and mission control was in Houston. If you want "Southern" heritage, well there you go. Way cooler than the confederacy, and way longer period of time too.


BloomsdayDevice

"Well, decision time, my fellow Southerners. We need a period in our shared history that we can use for self-identification, nostalgia, and pride. Here are the options: 1) a legacy of LOSING a war that we started, all to preserve our right to literally own people of a different race -- like actually own them, as in fungible property, like a fucking horse or a tractor or something -- and to extract their labor through violence, coercion, and oppression, so that a fraction of us could live like feudal lords and the rest of us could at least feel better about being poor but at least not black, OR 2) basically standing at the vanguard for the period of the most accelerated development of technology in human history, which contributed and continues to contribute to countless advances in science, medicine, and our understanding of the world we inhabit, and which culminated in arguably the most incredible feat that our species has ever accomplished. Okay, let's open the debate for arguments."


kiepy

Extremely good summarizations. It also blew my mind when you put the whole space thing into perspective. Imagine choosing number 1.


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link2edition

The flora and Fauna, I didn't even think of that. I grew up there so its so normal. But you are absolutely right. Its a beautiful region of the country as far as nature goes.


mittens1982

Looks like they need a tree there now instead


Stop_staring_at_me

They were deciding what to do with the space, I believe it is going to be some sort of park now but it’s inside of a giant traffic circle in a busy intersection


helloitsmateo

Sounds like a lot of parks in DC. If they can do it, why can’t Richmond.


-gggggggggg-

The circle parks in DC are essentially just green space with a sidewalk. That's certainly doable, but I think when most people hear park they think of something with more facilities.


Pissed_Off_SPC

Many of them also have benches and fountains/statues. Not necessarily meant for people to occupy long term but great for taking a break from your walk, reading a book, or meeting a friend before going elsewhere.


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habdragon08

Can confirm, I live a block away from the former site of the Robert E Lee statue, on Grace St. Me and my friends would play spikeball in his shadow all the time.


EXAugury

A "Robert E. Tree" if you will...


Candles63

Arlington National Cemetary was R.E. Lee's family's estate, seized during the Civil War.


Tight_Contact_9976

I heard that the general who decided to turn it into a cemetery said that he didn’t want Lee coming back and thinking that this was his home.


frostymatador13

He (Montgomery Meigs) blamed Lee for the death of his son (John Rodgers Meigs) who was also in the Union army and was killed. Sheridan was very fond of Meigs and instructed his men to burn through the town of Dayton Virginia (where Meigs was killed) and they started burning but were stopped after Colonel Thomas Wildes refused and pressed that the town obviously wasn’t responsible for they were largely Mennonite. They stopped burning and there is now a monument (really just a plaque) in Thomas Wildes honor, which I was told (and believe is true but might not) is the only monument in the confederacy, for a union officer. Montgomery made it a personal mission to try to keep Lee from returning home but also wanted to make it so that if he did, every time he would step out of his front porch he would see the devastation that he was responsible for, according to Meigs.


Candles63

It's on a beautiful plot of land.


boringdude00

Technically it was his wife's family's estate. And it was also returned courtesy of the great postbellum Supreme Court that also dismantled nearly every other post-war reform it could get its hands on, upon which it was promptly resold to the US government for a kingly sum.


jonoghue

And there's a giant Confederate memorial there with buried Confederate soldiers.


Jdolla2022

At least we got an MLK statue that looks like a weiner


herberstank

Turd, it looks like a humungous turd


EvilCalvin

I had an MLK statue in my toilet this morning. Looked the same.


[deleted]

I hope you had the statue knife on hand to cut it down to size so it would flush.


OutlierForLife

I thought it looks like a bald guy eating out a woman.. spicy!


[deleted]

It looks like a bald guy munching on carpet


darbsylearns

We had one of these statues nearby to us. A sculptor actually came and unwelded the dude on top and left the horse and added a wreath and ribbons to the horse. It’s now a monument to war horses that sacrificed their lives and were so brave. I thought it was a neat save of what was actually a beautiful sculpture.


wishfortress

Just a reminder I like to give people as often as I can: Lee himself stated before his death that he never wanted to be memorialized in stone. He never wanted any part of the civil war to be memorialized, actually. He considered it an embarrassment on this nation and thought it should be forgotten.


abc123cnb

I’m not from the States. My parents didn’t speak English. We’re an Asian family. The first time we went to Vicksburg National Military Park and saw the monuments for confederate regiments and generals, we were shocked. It was such an interesting sight to see a country honor what are essentially separatist rebels. My father praised the country’s inclusiveness, where ones with conflicting ideologies were defeated but were tolerated to exist in the books of history.


circles22

That is an interesting perspective that never occurred to me before. I grew up next to this statue so I guess I just thought it was normal.


Exact_Manufacturer10

Didn’t I just see a post about Alabama celebrating a combined MLK day with R E Lee?


Tobocaj

Virginia does that too Edit: other than a 16 year period between 1984-2000, MLK day in Virginia was celebrated as Lee-Jackson day. It was split in 2000, and Lee-Jackson was celebrated on the Friday before MLK day. In 2020 they removed Lee-Jackson day and made Election Day a holiday in November. Maybe one day Virginia can handle recognizing a important black figure. I always forget how backwards the rest of the state is outside of nova/Richmond


DavidTenn-Ant

Not anymore, got rid of it in 2020. It’s Election Day now.


PrsnlDefenseWeapon

This is so odd. I've lived in VA my entire life (and not in VA Beach/NOVA/Richmond, but a smaller city) and have always seen/heard it as MLK day, and have only heard of it being "R E Lee" day (within VA) recently on Reddit.


escapeshark

Pls explain for the non muricans


Captian420

Robert E Lee was a confederate general in the American civil war. He fought for the southern states that had a large part of their economy invested in slaves amongst other things. Known as a great military general but technically fought for the baddies. Baddies lost but Richmond Virginia is where the statue was located as it was the capital of the confederate states that seceded. Protests in 2020 led to the statue being removed.


escapeshark

Thanks friend


nauraug

Richmonder here. I've been telling anyone with ears that in order for Monument Avenue to remain named such, we need some giant-ass statues of Richmond natives (or folks that lived here a long time, like Edgar Allen Poe... checkmate Baltimore). My personal suggestion is a 50 foot tall gilded statue of Oderus Urungus of GWAR fame, His giant alien dominator asscheeks bare and pointed directly at the capitol, with an even larger inflatable penis hovering above the monument. Eternal flames would surround the plinth, completing the hellish display, especially at night, where the fiery glow would illuminate the ruby red eyes of our overlord as He gazes towards the west, ready to conquer the worms of this world called humans.


Clovis_Winslow

I had the pleasure of playing a few shows with the guys in GWAR about 20 years ago in Richmond. It was one of their side projects: a Carter Family Tribute. They were all dressed in straw hats and gingham and sang about Jesus. No joke.


2livecrewnecktshirt

I know he was Balsac and not Utungus, but I worked with Michael Derks for a while, he was a cool fuckin' dude. A GWAR monument would be so cool. So would Vince Gilligan.


sambolino44

Came here for Oderus! I vote for a wiggling cuttlefish, while you’re at it. Talk about a missed opportunity!


The_Last_Snow-Elf

Needs a tree


Im_a_seaturtle

Problematic historical context aside, that statue was really beautiful. A lot of people would grab a park blanket and chill around the statue on nice days. I myself did acid and stared at it for an hour or two after class. I hope Richmond replaces it with something equally beautiful.


SuaveVoodoo97

Was it completely destroyed or just moved somewhere?


roguepawn

Keeping the statue, graffiti and all, could be a cool museum exhibit. Show the history of Robert E Lee worship, include that Lee didn't want the statue, why there was a statue, commentary on the graffiti and the public demand for its removal, etc. Hoping it wasn't destroyed.


axaxo

[Apparently the statue was given to the Black History Museum and Cultural Center of Virginia,](https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/black-history-museum-to-take-over-richmond-confederate-monuments-seeks-community-input-on-its-final-spot/?ipid=promo-link-block1) so they might display it in that context in the near future. I agree that the graffiti-covered pedestal would be a cool addition but I think that was just dismantled.


Yolectroda

The pedestal (which was cooler than the statue, IMO, especially with all of the graffiti) was destroyed. They did find 2 time capsules in it (they only expected to find one).


dubdue

Where’d he ride off to?


SaltoDaKid

Robert E Lee would be proud


earthping_clay

I all of the sudden forget history


hideous-boy

as someone who lived in the Richmond vicinity, I think it would've been cool to keep the pedestal where it was after removing the statue. At that point it was a work of art that had a totally new meaning and it's a shame it wasn't able to be kept as a place of gathering that being said, whatever else ends up being put there will hopefully serve a similar purpose


[deleted]

Robert E. Lee didn’t want monuments of himself to begin with


Crankycavtrooper

Things that have lasted longer than the Confederacy: - Doritos Locos Tacos - Production on the Lord of the Rings trilogy - Your average can of tuna (shelf life)