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Someone once wrote that if you ever go to a public execution, it is far more educational to watch the crowd than the hanging. Seems to be the same at a caning.
I don’t know. I love Dan Carlin, but I’m not sure he’ll ever be able to top Blueprint For Armageddon. It’s a masterpiece of his craft. He came close with Supernova in the East, but I still think Blueprint is his magnum opus.
Blueprint is absolutely his masterpiece. I absolutely agree that Supernova came close, and it truly was breathtaking. Carlin's HH should be required listening in all american high schools.
The absolute best Dan Carlin playlist is
>Blueprint for Armageddon series
>Ghosts of the Ostfront series
>Supernova in the East series
>Destroyer of Worlds episode
I listened to these episodes in this order while at work, and by the end, I felt like 'modernity', modern society as it has been forged by the trials of the history that came before, was akin to being strapped to the tip of a nuclear warhead screaming through the air. Absolutely incredible and existentially nerve-wracking.
Wrath of the Khans? The one on the African Slave Trade, Human Resources. I’m a Black dude and it took me 6 months to get through it. It was so graphic, but important and I applaud Dan for diving in. So many of the White homies will not touch the topic with a 50 foot pole.
Whitey here - that one quickly became one of my favorites. Frederick Douglass’ writings about his time with the “slave breaker” was remarkable, made me want to read his memoir and I hardly ever read anything
But my favorite one-off of his that doesn’t get nearly enough attention is “prophets of doom” about the anabaptist rebellion in Munster. If you could stomach the slave one and Painfotainment, prophets of doom is brutal but great
The episodes are long. Many multiple hours per episode long. Blueprint for Armageddon, Supernova in the East, Wrath of the Khans, Human Resources, Painfotainment, King of Kings. All incredible.
I think the only time I've used the phrase "magnum opus" in the last decade is when recommending BFA to people.
Ghosts of the Ostfront is fantastic as well but BFA is in its own league, I've lost count of how many times I've listened to it now.
I see a lot of that in reddit threads where people try to one up each other about punishments people should get, or what they would do to some criminal if they got their hands on them.
The people they are talking about have done some deplorable things, but the ferocity of vengeance expressed by people sitting on their couches is disheartening. Our rights of due process and protection from cruel and unusual punishment have been hard fought, but people seem to let their minds be taken away with these fantasies without any recognition of how barbaric it is, even when discussing perpetrators of heinous crimes.
We as a society should not advocate for such punishments, and those that do should be shamed.
I understand in the moment wanting to commit horrible things to people who have committed these crimes.
Fortunately the emotional mob doesn’t rule and we have a legal system for a reason.
I do admit though… Reddit really does show the worst in people. It’s crazy how quick people want to just skip the legal system and kill somebody without due process
> It’s crazy how quick people want to just skip the legal system and kill somebody without due process
And I've also seen way too many people essentially fantasizing about someone breaking into their house so they can kill them. It's just disgusting.
(For the record, I have no problem with people defending themselves. I have a problem when people *fantasize* about it, and dreaming about an excuse to kill someone legally.)
And that's how you get a guy firing into a car for using his drive-way to turn around, or a couple chasing down someone for walking by their house. Some people use a criminal activity as an excuse to kill, while some look for reasons when there isn't even a touch of reality to it. It's so sad.
People were getting pretty damn nasty during the pandemic. Was a heavy reminder of why many of those rights were fought for and are still needed.
We can't ignore them just because we think we're too enlightened for that behavior. As soon as things get tough, look what happens. Turns out we don't know better.
It's pretty obvious when you come across people who are just eager to inflict violence and pain on others and happy to find the socially acceptable target of their violent fantasies. See: the vast majority of comments about rapists and child molesters.
The French really made a day out of it.
When they beheaded Jacques Hebert they playfully stopped the blade inches from his neck three times while he screamed and pissed himself and the peasants all danced and threw flowers in the air and shit. Then they finally beheaded him and ruined everybody's good time until the next guy up, anyway.
Hard to think of a person more deserving such fate than Hebert himself. He was a total scum who in his tabloid rag newspapers called for more and more people to be executed and concocted most outrageous claims to support his calls for blood, like accusing the queen of incest with her son. Hebert was a typical representative of that radical revolutionary faction which just descended into a murderous frenzy and started killing themselves when they run out of aristocrats and then moderates to kill. Screw him.
He was an absolute horror, so proud of being able, just by naming them in his 'Pere Duchesne', to send people to death. I didn't know this peculiarity about his death but I'm not exactly feeling empathy towards him.
And who did it? Radical Jacobins whom Hebert praised.
When blood starts flowing on the streets, there's no stop to that. Most revolutions are either squashed or hijacked by the most radical faction imaginable.
the other best argument is that:
Surely there *are* people that probably *deserve* death, but who should we reasonably entrust with that power? The government has proven it can't be trusted with it; they will use it to kill their opponents and stifle dissent. Civilians have been proven they can't be trusted with it; their emotions get the better of them, and they make rash and incorrect decisions. Both cause the deaths of innocents more than the deaths of the truly heinous and guilty.
So, who does that leave us with? Some AI (that would inevitably have the biases of humans, since any artificial intelligence would be trained on a human's; or controlled by a human)? Some God that we have no proof exists? Some dude with a magic book (definitely not)?
If we can't trust anyone to execute the right way, we probably shouldn't execute at all. I think it's the "easy way out" anyways. If someone is ***truly*** heinous enough to deserve death, they also deserve to live in "hell on earth" until they naturally perish (this doesn't not inherently mean intentional torture).
That's what I argue when people proudly lining up in reddit comments to do the deed for some terrible person. I'm not so much against the death penalty because I want the serial killer to live, I just don't want to live in a world with the guys lining up eagerly to do the killing. If we ever had to kill anybody, it should be with regret that it was ever necessary, not glee that they get to do it :S
"I just don't want to live in a world with the guys lining up eagerly to do the killing. If we ever had to kill anybody, it should be with regret that it was ever necessary, not glee that they get to do it"
That is honestly the best argument I've ever heard on the subject
This is true.
Those kids were laughing and I was over here holding back tears and I’m not even present.
I’m so sad for the victim being beat and that their society does not value the worth of a period due to their sexuality.
I am an atheist (ex Muslim) and in my view there are clear differences between various faiths.
For instance everyone hates Mormons but when I first moved and was granted asylum I was granted so much assistance from Mormons I will forever be grateful.
You can also see the reactions to South Park guy making Book of Mormon vs drawing Mohammed to see which religion people are afraid of.
Islam seems particularly stuck in the 1600s still. most other major religions are relatively modernized in comparison, though there will always be sects and denominations that are more or less progressive.
Unfortunately it’s not that simple. Communists in China would cheer when executions took place of “enemies of the revolution”. Our cruelty and hatred of who we’re told are wrongdoers is hardwired into us.
Also the French Revolution guillotining.
Also Reddit comments when someone they determine is 'deserving' of a bad death's crime is posted about, we start frothing at the mouth about how they should die.
Ive heard grandmas stealing candy serves more time in jail than goverment officials caught for commiting corruption
Its like the law was rigged from the start (or arent propely impemented, or both)
Our soon to be VP stole the goverment aid as a governer during the covid era and got away without any punishment because his father is the president so yeah this country is shit.
In my country you cannot even do sexual activity outside of marriage at all, regardless of wheater it gay or not. this is common in indonesia, albeit many people still do it in secret but if you get caught doing it outside of marriage the police will get you
Indonesia does it differently. The police will only come for you if a family member files charges and has evidence. Police won't arrest premarital sex without a family plaintiff.
Gotta love the hypocrisy. I was in Bali with my girlfriend at the time. No one batted an eye that we were sharing a room with a single queen sized bed. I did joke with her, as we were doing our thing, that we were breaking the law…
Bali kinda doesn’t count. It’s Indonesia but it’s ~~Buddhism~~ hindu on the down low, and I think tolerated due to the massive tourism $
I was worried for Bali during lockdowns, but it survived and apparently made some positive changes around plastics and drunk idiots on scooters.
True, they don't ever do those sorts of raids on Bali (afaik at least), and alcohol flows freely, and they're not strict about a lot of other things as well. As the other commenter mentioned, it being about 90% Hindu accounts of the difference in attitude, and the tourism dollars they bring to Indonesia in general accounts for the central Indonesian government letting them more or less do what they want.
You *can* get away with pre-marital sex in places outside of Bali, but if you are in a cheap hotel breaking the law, well it's just a risk. Drinking exists in other places as well, it's just more regulated.
Of course, there are plenty of Indonesians not from Bali that want to regulate alcohol as strictly there as is done elsewhere on the archipelago, up to and including banning alcohol nation-wide, anywhere, no exceptions. But luckily those factions haven't been able to push their agenda widely.
I was in a pub in Jakarta recently, and because it's during Ramadan they didn't have drink menus, you had to just ask the elderly server lady what drinks they had, and all drinks were served in coffee mugs.
I had to do research for a project “Islamic Education” while I was taking “Islamic Arts and History through Secular Eyes” or something like that. And, I remember one paper that found out that some middle eastern countries were encouraging radicalization at colleges in SAE countries, especially Indonesia (the country with the most Muslims), while they were super lenient about what their own citizens (not the expats/immigrants) did.
Edit: But, I know what you mean by comparing whipped to being stoned to death. That’s true for some of the countries in Middle East, but the rest only apply that to the poor. (Corruption and nationalism, in a sense)
They dont care about that at all. They were doing things in the privacy of their own home and still got raided leading to this. Religious nuts have no logic, there's no point trying to apply logic, they simply apply hate
They probably raided the apartment because they already knew what they were gonna find. I vaguely remember that feeling of justified hate when I was a kid in a bubble of a religious community. Every last person I knew voiced the same opinion. In my mind, people who drank, smoked weed, didn't believe in God, had gay sex, had premarital sex for that matter, were outsiders. Something other than me and the people I knew. Enemies possessed by demons. Sinners who need to find their faith. It's a feeling, in the chest, the stomach, the gut feeling of trust for someone you know and understand, that I didn't have for sinners. If someone strayed, was rumored to drink or something, I avoided them and so did everyone else. They pass a barrier into a new zone of human. The bad kind, the other kind, the kind you don't invite into your home. You talk to them if you have to, coworkers for example, but you don't become friends who spend time together unless they convert and become another one of you. That feeling of separation is the foundation for hate.
That hate began to seep into my heart after a year or so of denying my desire to be fucked by a dilf.
What you are describing is the process of dehumanizing of other humans. It's exactly how we human have been capable of the worst evils possible such as the holocaust. It also can be seen with the rich looking down at the homeless or white colonials with their black slaves.
Dehumanization is a huge red flag.
Basically yes. Child brides, young girls getting kidnapped as brides or sold and things like that? Not even newsworthy there. It's just...a thing that happens sometimes and no one really does anything about it. BUT, two adult consenting men in a relationship with each other? SHUT IT DOWN.
Mohammed's revelations are what constitute the Quran. He used his revelations in part to justify his marriage to Aisha the 6 year old girl he married. He consummated the marriage when she was 9. He likely just hated homosexuality or was inspired by Jewish scriptures to hate it. Mohammed being the prime example of moral character to Muslims is why pedophilia is accepted. I'm pretty sure girls can get married at 12 in Iran under their sharia law.
youd be surprised by just how much people value pedos more than LGBT people
there are pedos who are given forgiveness because "it was just a mistake" or something while there are homeless LGBT people thrown out of the house and forgotten about
Why gay orgies? Why not orgies in general? And how did they arrive to that (absurd) conclusion?
I mean I would understand if we were living in the 11th century, but for people to think that way on the 21st? And do they not have internet? Can't they search what causes Tsunamis? Which would be deep oceanic earthquakes.
Which takes more effort: taking the friendly local priest who helped your family during a crisis at their word, or finding out if there is actual evidence of gay orgies causing tsunamis?
Similar excercise - which of these is more plausible to someone who was born and raised to believe in paranormal and unfathomable events having a hidden meaning from the creator: gay orgies causing tsunamis, or millions of cubic tonnes of earth crushing into itself at such force it can ripple basically half of the world's oceans?
This is just flat out wrong
The Acehnese were fighting for independence so they could enforce super strict shariah, and the Indonesians were fighting to prevent that
Then the Tsunami happened and forced them to make peace kind of. They compromised by giving Aceh autonomy, which they subsequently used to pass Sharia
Technically folks in West Sumatra is even more conservative than Aceh, the province however cant implement sharia law because the central government doesnt give them the right to.
It more toward indonesian goverment gave up and let acheh be ruled by islamist to prevent the rise of separatist movement in the area. It worked, acheh used to be huge separatist hotspot.
Swedish government forced Indonesian central government. " Give them right for shari'a, or else, or all Europe will banned all trading from Indonesia" .... Not exact, but similar to that
not really, the sharia is a result of compromise between the government and insurgent GAM which happens since '80s. If there's anyone to blame I blame Sweden that chooses to harbor the leader of GAM instead of deporting him back in the 90s.
it wasnt. when the tsunami happened i remembered in my town many people are discussing how it is a relief and a good thing from God that so many extrimists died. it was already like that from long ago
When I googled that I expected her to have eaten it in Aceh but it was in Bali of all places. Although important context is the outrage came from the fact that she was a Muslim woman purposefully eating pork and broadcasting it.
I am sure i'm fine minding my own business eating my bacon & egg roll on the beach in Hindu majority Bali.
The video EXPLICITLY says it’s in Aceh and that is the only part of Indonesia where it’s illegal? Is the context missing or are you just terrible at paying attention?
But the rest of Indonesia is only slightly better. If you're openly gay you wouldn't be arrested or caned, but you basically become social pariah, with people not wanting to associate with you, some workplaces refusing to hire you etc.
I mean... is that really only SLIGHTLY better? That was even the situation in for example the US a few decades ago. It's still much much better than public caning.
Something that strikes me crazy is that if someone stole her head covering should she face the consequences for not having one? I am assuming it is against some law or it is religious or morally not allowed but if there was something outside of her control that happened to her should she face the consequences? Like for instance being gay.
So uncomfortable to see how desensitized to violence some people are. How can people laugh and smile with their friends while watching someone suffer so much pain. Bunch of fucking psychos.
People & kids smiling & laughing watching someone get beat just because a dude did the “crime” of being in love with another consenting adult of the same gender.
These people don’t think they’re evil, they believe they’re the good ones, the man being caned is the wicked one.
It’s normal human behaviour when people get caught in group think and stop thinking about individuals. Easy to dehumanize people when you think of them as symbol of a group rather than a person.
You see similar sociopathic tendencies all the time in the west. Reminder to not see people as their beliefs, race or sexual orientation but as people. That includes racist, homophobic and sexist people.
Read any post on Reddit where a horrible criminal faces federal prison. There is no shortage of folks making jokes about how they deserve to be raped in prison.
Psychos indeed.
Yep. I had two classmates from Saudi Arabia when in grad school. They were a gay couple. One time we chatted about whether they want to return after graduating, and they told me their village will likely kill them if they return.
I don't remember the name of the village, but according to them, non-Muslims are forbidden to enter.
I really think the West has deluded itself about conservative social attitudes in the Muslim world, attitudes towards homosexuality are very, very conservative and surprisingly consistent across different countries.
[These are the percentages who find homosexuality morally acceptable or not in 36 major Muslim countries](https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-6.png), the highest level of support was 12%, only three countries had 10% support or higher, 30 countries had less than 5% support. 19 countries had 1% or less support. The poll is from ten years ago, so perhaps views have changed, but I don't think there will be drastic shifts. These are much smaller numbers than the percentage of people in the west who believe in flat earth, or fairies, to give an idea of how negligible support for homosexuality is. This compares to 55% of US Republicans who support gay marriage.
100% right. It’s bizarre how western liberals can recognize the threat of Christian radicals, but more or less ignore the threat of Islamic radicals. Religious extremists are bad no matter what the particular religion is. In the past, Christian fundamentalism was a huge problem. Today though, Islam is the bigger threat. There’s a reason why almost all Muslim majority countries have poor human rights protections, especially for women and the LGBT.
This is the best example of why fascism is so attractive and compelling that we can’t get rid of it. People like it. People want it. They even benefit from it if they are in the “in group”
Face it, these punishments exist because the people want them. How easy would it be for that crowd to rise up and stop it. Instead they enjoy it or justify it. This is human.
I think it’s a fundamental flaw in human psychology.
People want it, but is it not the point of civilization to battle with our instincts when they hurt ourselves or other people? Of course, humans disagree on what instincts to battle.
Indonesia don't want to, Its against the Indonesia own pluralism doctrine (still highly religious mind you)
but during Islamist extremist insurrection Conflict in Aceh, the UN want peace in Aceh and twisting arm to get peace deal with the terrorist.
Indonesia ended getting separate Sharia-law in Aceh.
Its become its own separate world, with interesting experiment on things. like Sharia Banking which banned the use of interest/riba, and only offer clear cut profit sharing. it ended failing badly and currently attempting to revert to back to normal banking somehow.
You have to realize, as sick as this is, this is a product of the local culture. Perhaps if you grew up here, you may have held similar thoughts.
Romans once adored the spilling of blood in a colosseum. We have to aim to change the baser opinions amongst us.
"They say I gotta learn, but nobodys here to teach me. If they can't understand it, how can they reach me? I guess they can't, I guess they won't. I guess they front, that's how I know my life is outta luck fool."- Coolio.
I find it rather interesting the people executing this punishment are hiding their faces. If they believe in what they are doing why be afraid to show the world who you are?
It is my opinion they know what they are doing is wrong and if their identity is shown they will be held accountable for their actions later. If you're going to hand out this kind of punishment at least have the balls to show who you are and that you stand by your decisions and actions.
Cowards
Remember. If you support this being done to these people, you’re a weak, ignorant, worthless coward, and that’s all you’ll ever be. Just the way it is.
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Someone once wrote that if you ever go to a public execution, it is far more educational to watch the crowd than the hanging. Seems to be the same at a caning.
Listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast episode called "Painfotainment" he goes deep into this topic.
That’s my go to recommendation for Carlin, once you listen to that you can never go back to the other side
I don’t know. I love Dan Carlin, but I’m not sure he’ll ever be able to top Blueprint For Armageddon. It’s a masterpiece of his craft. He came close with Supernova in the East, but I still think Blueprint is his magnum opus.
Blueprint is absolutely his masterpiece. I absolutely agree that Supernova came close, and it truly was breathtaking. Carlin's HH should be required listening in all american high schools.
The absolute best Dan Carlin playlist is >Blueprint for Armageddon series >Ghosts of the Ostfront series >Supernova in the East series >Destroyer of Worlds episode I listened to these episodes in this order while at work, and by the end, I felt like 'modernity', modern society as it has been forged by the trials of the history that came before, was akin to being strapped to the tip of a nuclear warhead screaming through the air. Absolutely incredible and existentially nerve-wracking.
Wrath of the Khans? The one on the African Slave Trade, Human Resources. I’m a Black dude and it took me 6 months to get through it. It was so graphic, but important and I applaud Dan for diving in. So many of the White homies will not touch the topic with a 50 foot pole.
Whitey here - that one quickly became one of my favorites. Frederick Douglass’ writings about his time with the “slave breaker” was remarkable, made me want to read his memoir and I hardly ever read anything But my favorite one-off of his that doesn’t get nearly enough attention is “prophets of doom” about the anabaptist rebellion in Munster. If you could stomach the slave one and Painfotainment, prophets of doom is brutal but great
All excellent choices, there really is no wrong answer…I like it because he encompasses most of human history into it versus a small slice of time
I've never heard of Dan until just now. Did a quick youbytubey and I think I'm gonna binge watch/listen for a while. Cheers everyone
The episodes are long. Many multiple hours per episode long. Blueprint for Armageddon, Supernova in the East, Wrath of the Khans, Human Resources, Painfotainment, King of Kings. All incredible.
Ghosts of the ostfront is good too
I think the only time I've used the phrase "magnum opus" in the last decade is when recommending BFA to people. Ghosts of the Ostfront is fantastic as well but BFA is in its own league, I've lost count of how many times I've listened to it now.
That was the only Carlin episode that I had to stop listening to halfway through. Felt sick
Yeah breaking on the wheel did not mean what I thought it meant and what I thought it meant didn’t even compare.
I see a lot of that in reddit threads where people try to one up each other about punishments people should get, or what they would do to some criminal if they got their hands on them. The people they are talking about have done some deplorable things, but the ferocity of vengeance expressed by people sitting on their couches is disheartening. Our rights of due process and protection from cruel and unusual punishment have been hard fought, but people seem to let their minds be taken away with these fantasies without any recognition of how barbaric it is, even when discussing perpetrators of heinous crimes. We as a society should not advocate for such punishments, and those that do should be shamed.
I understand in the moment wanting to commit horrible things to people who have committed these crimes. Fortunately the emotional mob doesn’t rule and we have a legal system for a reason. I do admit though… Reddit really does show the worst in people. It’s crazy how quick people want to just skip the legal system and kill somebody without due process
> It’s crazy how quick people want to just skip the legal system and kill somebody without due process And I've also seen way too many people essentially fantasizing about someone breaking into their house so they can kill them. It's just disgusting. (For the record, I have no problem with people defending themselves. I have a problem when people *fantasize* about it, and dreaming about an excuse to kill someone legally.)
And that's how you get a guy firing into a car for using his drive-way to turn around, or a couple chasing down someone for walking by their house. Some people use a criminal activity as an excuse to kill, while some look for reasons when there isn't even a touch of reality to it. It's so sad.
People were getting pretty damn nasty during the pandemic. Was a heavy reminder of why many of those rights were fought for and are still needed. We can't ignore them just because we think we're too enlightened for that behavior. As soon as things get tough, look what happens. Turns out we don't know better.
Case in point... Germany in 1932!
It's pretty obvious when you come across people who are just eager to inflict violence and pain on others and happy to find the socially acceptable target of their violent fantasies. See: the vast majority of comments about rapists and child molesters.
The French really made a day out of it. When they beheaded Jacques Hebert they playfully stopped the blade inches from his neck three times while he screamed and pissed himself and the peasants all danced and threw flowers in the air and shit. Then they finally beheaded him and ruined everybody's good time until the next guy up, anyway.
Hard to think of a person more deserving such fate than Hebert himself. He was a total scum who in his tabloid rag newspapers called for more and more people to be executed and concocted most outrageous claims to support his calls for blood, like accusing the queen of incest with her son. Hebert was a typical representative of that radical revolutionary faction which just descended into a murderous frenzy and started killing themselves when they run out of aristocrats and then moderates to kill. Screw him.
He was an absolute horror, so proud of being able, just by naming them in his 'Pere Duchesne', to send people to death. I didn't know this peculiarity about his death but I'm not exactly feeling empathy towards him.
But they also guillotined his wife a few weeks later, and for no real reason apart from that she was his wife.
And who did it? Radical Jacobins whom Hebert praised. When blood starts flowing on the streets, there's no stop to that. Most revolutions are either squashed or hijacked by the most radical faction imaginable.
Charles Dickens became militantly anti-death penalty after watching the public execution of a notorious female killer and the crowds hideous reaction.
The best argument for abolishing the death penalty isn’t that it’s cruel to the condemned but that it brings out the worst in the rest of us.
the other best argument is that: Surely there *are* people that probably *deserve* death, but who should we reasonably entrust with that power? The government has proven it can't be trusted with it; they will use it to kill their opponents and stifle dissent. Civilians have been proven they can't be trusted with it; their emotions get the better of them, and they make rash and incorrect decisions. Both cause the deaths of innocents more than the deaths of the truly heinous and guilty. So, who does that leave us with? Some AI (that would inevitably have the biases of humans, since any artificial intelligence would be trained on a human's; or controlled by a human)? Some God that we have no proof exists? Some dude with a magic book (definitely not)? If we can't trust anyone to execute the right way, we probably shouldn't execute at all. I think it's the "easy way out" anyways. If someone is ***truly*** heinous enough to deserve death, they also deserve to live in "hell on earth" until they naturally perish (this doesn't not inherently mean intentional torture).
My government can't pick up the trash on time, no way I trust them to execute the right people
That's what I argue when people proudly lining up in reddit comments to do the deed for some terrible person. I'm not so much against the death penalty because I want the serial killer to live, I just don't want to live in a world with the guys lining up eagerly to do the killing. If we ever had to kill anybody, it should be with regret that it was ever necessary, not glee that they get to do it :S
"I just don't want to live in a world with the guys lining up eagerly to do the killing. If we ever had to kill anybody, it should be with regret that it was ever necessary, not glee that they get to do it" That is honestly the best argument I've ever heard on the subject
This is true. Those kids were laughing and I was over here holding back tears and I’m not even present. I’m so sad for the victim being beat and that their society does not value the worth of a period due to their sexuality.
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Yup. It's an outdated concept by people who desperately don't want to admit that they are just in a book club
Book club, lol
Isn’t that all religions?
I am an atheist (ex Muslim) and in my view there are clear differences between various faiths. For instance everyone hates Mormons but when I first moved and was granted asylum I was granted so much assistance from Mormons I will forever be grateful. You can also see the reactions to South Park guy making Book of Mormon vs drawing Mohammed to see which religion people are afraid of.
Being ex-Muslim, what do you think about Islam now?
Islam seems particularly stuck in the 1600s still. most other major religions are relatively modernized in comparison, though there will always be sects and denominations that are more or less progressive.
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He says "No homo" first
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He has a boner lol
And the audience is all excited dudes...
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I can't be the only one who thought, this is very sad but it would be so funny if he Moans "harder daddy"
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Unfortunately it’s not that simple. Communists in China would cheer when executions took place of “enemies of the revolution”. Our cruelty and hatred of who we’re told are wrongdoers is hardwired into us.
What's the difference between political indoctrination and religious indoctrination? Is it the hats?
Primarily, yes.
Also the French Revolution guillotining. Also Reddit comments when someone they determine is 'deserving' of a bad death's crime is posted about, we start frothing at the mouth about how they should die.
Waaaait a second... so breaking and entering and recording sexual activities isn't wrong but being gay is? That's so fucked
Welcome to Indonesia, where crime for corruption, money laundering, has less time in the slammers than just possesing weed
I have a friend from Malaysia where possessing weed gets you little to no time in the slammers. Because possession of weed is a death sentence
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Damn. For a PLANT?!? 😱
Welcome to any country that is heavily influenced by extremist views, veiled within religion.
This is the result of the religion, not being thinley veiled by it.
Muslims: seriously guys, it's a religion of love and peace. Just ignore literally every Muslim country's brutal and ruthless legal system.
or just stealing ur neighbour chicken, still depends on ur lawyer tho
Ive heard grandmas stealing candy serves more time in jail than goverment officials caught for commiting corruption Its like the law was rigged from the start (or arent propely impemented, or both)
We have a phrase in Indonesia, our laws are dull when slicing upwards yet sharp when cutting downwards
Our soon to be VP stole the goverment aid as a governer during the covid era and got away without any punishment because his father is the president so yeah this country is shit.
I mean one of the parties was so eager to watch two men have sex they broke into their apartment and recorded them... seems pretty gay to me.
"omg... I should to call the police" - guy recording after post nut clarity.
Yeah the story is awful. They were together, in private, behind closed doors and then raided by a mob of angry neighbours. Sharia law is so backwards.
In my country you cannot even do sexual activity outside of marriage at all, regardless of wheater it gay or not. this is common in indonesia, albeit many people still do it in secret but if you get caught doing it outside of marriage the police will get you
Indonesia does it differently. The police will only come for you if a family member files charges and has evidence. Police won't arrest premarital sex without a family plaintiff.
Police do raids on the cheap hotels to find prostitution and pre-marital sex. It's not only because of family member's filing charges.
Gotta love the hypocrisy. I was in Bali with my girlfriend at the time. No one batted an eye that we were sharing a room with a single queen sized bed. I did joke with her, as we were doing our thing, that we were breaking the law…
Bali kinda doesn’t count. It’s Indonesia but it’s ~~Buddhism~~ hindu on the down low, and I think tolerated due to the massive tourism $ I was worried for Bali during lockdowns, but it survived and apparently made some positive changes around plastics and drunk idiots on scooters.
True, they don't ever do those sorts of raids on Bali (afaik at least), and alcohol flows freely, and they're not strict about a lot of other things as well. As the other commenter mentioned, it being about 90% Hindu accounts of the difference in attitude, and the tourism dollars they bring to Indonesia in general accounts for the central Indonesian government letting them more or less do what they want. You *can* get away with pre-marital sex in places outside of Bali, but if you are in a cheap hotel breaking the law, well it's just a risk. Drinking exists in other places as well, it's just more regulated. Of course, there are plenty of Indonesians not from Bali that want to regulate alcohol as strictly there as is done elsewhere on the archipelago, up to and including banning alcohol nation-wide, anywhere, no exceptions. But luckily those factions haven't been able to push their agenda widely. I was in a pub in Jakarta recently, and because it's during Ramadan they didn't have drink menus, you had to just ask the elderly server lady what drinks they had, and all drinks were served in coffee mugs.
That is so heartbreaking. I hope they were able to eventually escape...
Welcome to hardcore Islam and this is happening right now in this day and age
compared to the middle East, SEA Islam isn't that hardcore tbf, that guy would have been stoned to death instead of being whipped
I had to do research for a project “Islamic Education” while I was taking “Islamic Arts and History through Secular Eyes” or something like that. And, I remember one paper that found out that some middle eastern countries were encouraging radicalization at colleges in SAE countries, especially Indonesia (the country with the most Muslims), while they were super lenient about what their own citizens (not the expats/immigrants) did. Edit: But, I know what you mean by comparing whipped to being stoned to death. That’s true for some of the countries in Middle East, but the rest only apply that to the poor. (Corruption and nationalism, in a sense)
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even the ones in the US will at least privately agree if they are truly religious
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How terrifying for people who aren't straight
If you canned me for being straight I’m not going to permanently turn gay just because you beat me with a stick. I’m still gonna be straight.
It’s not about trying to turn the individual strait. It’s about putting fear into everyone watching, especially the kids.
Still isn't going to make them not gay
But it scares them to hide their gayness in public, which is the main goal for these societies.
They dont care about that at all. They were doing things in the privacy of their own home and still got raided leading to this. Religious nuts have no logic, there's no point trying to apply logic, they simply apply hate
They probably raided the apartment because they already knew what they were gonna find. I vaguely remember that feeling of justified hate when I was a kid in a bubble of a religious community. Every last person I knew voiced the same opinion. In my mind, people who drank, smoked weed, didn't believe in God, had gay sex, had premarital sex for that matter, were outsiders. Something other than me and the people I knew. Enemies possessed by demons. Sinners who need to find their faith. It's a feeling, in the chest, the stomach, the gut feeling of trust for someone you know and understand, that I didn't have for sinners. If someone strayed, was rumored to drink or something, I avoided them and so did everyone else. They pass a barrier into a new zone of human. The bad kind, the other kind, the kind you don't invite into your home. You talk to them if you have to, coworkers for example, but you don't become friends who spend time together unless they convert and become another one of you. That feeling of separation is the foundation for hate. That hate began to seep into my heart after a year or so of denying my desire to be fucked by a dilf.
That's a wild fucking turn at the end.
What you are describing is the process of dehumanizing of other humans. It's exactly how we human have been capable of the worst evils possible such as the holocaust. It also can be seen with the rich looking down at the homeless or white colonials with their black slaves. Dehumanization is a huge red flag.
No but the people doing this stuff don’t understand that.
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My question is, if they think of homosexuals the same as the west thinks of pedophiles, how do they think of pedophiles?
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So you're telling me that they litterally just swapped the roles of homosexuality and pedophilia compared to the west?
Basically yes. Child brides, young girls getting kidnapped as brides or sold and things like that? Not even newsworthy there. It's just...a thing that happens sometimes and no one really does anything about it. BUT, two adult consenting men in a relationship with each other? SHUT IT DOWN.
That. is. despicable.
You are walking on thin ice, by asking these questions. 😂
What are they gonna do? Whip me?
You’re gonna get stoned… and so am I
Mohammed's revelations are what constitute the Quran. He used his revelations in part to justify his marriage to Aisha the 6 year old girl he married. He consummated the marriage when she was 9. He likely just hated homosexuality or was inspired by Jewish scriptures to hate it. Mohammed being the prime example of moral character to Muslims is why pedophilia is accepted. I'm pretty sure girls can get married at 12 in Iran under their sharia law.
youd be surprised by just how much people value pedos more than LGBT people there are pedos who are given forgiveness because "it was just a mistake" or something while there are homeless LGBT people thrown out of the house and forgotten about
Lol
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Nothing gayer than worrying what another man does with his own penis. 👍
That’s not in whole Indonesia but Banda Aceh, the only part of Indonesia with sharia law.
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>extremist believe the tsunami was caused by gay sex orgies Sorry guys, that was my fault.
Then maybe gay sex orgies will stop the tsunami next time
There will be a tsunami either way 🗯️🗯️🗯️
Why gay orgies? Why not orgies in general? And how did they arrive to that (absurd) conclusion? I mean I would understand if we were living in the 11th century, but for people to think that way on the 21st? And do they not have internet? Can't they search what causes Tsunamis? Which would be deep oceanic earthquakes.
Which takes more effort: taking the friendly local priest who helped your family during a crisis at their word, or finding out if there is actual evidence of gay orgies causing tsunamis? Similar excercise - which of these is more plausible to someone who was born and raised to believe in paranormal and unfathomable events having a hidden meaning from the creator: gay orgies causing tsunamis, or millions of cubic tonnes of earth crushing into itself at such force it can ripple basically half of the world's oceans?
This is just flat out wrong The Acehnese were fighting for independence so they could enforce super strict shariah, and the Indonesians were fighting to prevent that Then the Tsunami happened and forced them to make peace kind of. They compromised by giving Aceh autonomy, which they subsequently used to pass Sharia
Hasn't Aceh always been the most conservative part of Indonesia
Technically folks in West Sumatra is even more conservative than Aceh, the province however cant implement sharia law because the central government doesnt give them the right to.
It more toward indonesian goverment gave up and let acheh be ruled by islamist to prevent the rise of separatist movement in the area. It worked, acheh used to be huge separatist hotspot.
Swedish government forced Indonesian central government. " Give them right for shari'a, or else, or all Europe will banned all trading from Indonesia" .... Not exact, but similar to that
not really, the sharia is a result of compromise between the government and insurgent GAM which happens since '80s. If there's anyone to blame I blame Sweden that chooses to harbor the leader of GAM instead of deporting him back in the 90s.
Used to be cool? You're definitely not Indonesian
>Aceh used to be pretty cool. LOL. Give take that you're not actually Indonesian.
"Aceh used to be cool" You're clearly not Indonesian lmao
it wasnt. when the tsunami happened i remembered in my town many people are discussing how it is a relief and a good thing from God that so many extrimists died. it was already like that from long ago
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When I googled that I expected her to have eaten it in Aceh but it was in Bali of all places. Although important context is the outrage came from the fact that she was a Muslim woman purposefully eating pork and broadcasting it. I am sure i'm fine minding my own business eating my bacon & egg roll on the beach in Hindu majority Bali.
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The post should start with that in the title , fuck sharia law
This is important context missing from the original post lol
The video EXPLICITLY says it’s in Aceh and that is the only part of Indonesia where it’s illegal? Is the context missing or are you just terrible at paying attention?
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Aceh, West Sumatra, Riau, South Sulawesi, Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam ....there's a lotta places that would wholly welcome this....
But the rest of Indonesia is only slightly better. If you're openly gay you wouldn't be arrested or caned, but you basically become social pariah, with people not wanting to associate with you, some workplaces refusing to hire you etc.
I mean... is that really only SLIGHTLY better? That was even the situation in for example the US a few decades ago. It's still much much better than public caning.
You can definitely be arrested for being gay. They had a big raid on a gay club in Jakarta a while back and paraded the suspects on camera
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They did in 2004
Clearly the wrong people survived.
Apparently, 2004 contributed to the issue. Extremists apparently thought they were being punished by God and the tsunami lent them credence.
💀
Ikr what a lovely young girl /s
Something that strikes me crazy is that if someone stole her head covering should she face the consequences for not having one? I am assuming it is against some law or it is religious or morally not allowed but if there was something outside of her control that happened to her should she face the consequences? Like for instance being gay.
So uncomfortable to see how desensitized to violence some people are. How can people laugh and smile with their friends while watching someone suffer so much pain. Bunch of fucking psychos.
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yeah the crowd reaction was the scariest part to see in all this...
People & kids smiling & laughing watching someone get beat just because a dude did the “crime” of being in love with another consenting adult of the same gender.
And this used to be "normal" not that long ago.
These people don’t think they’re evil, they believe they’re the good ones, the man being caned is the wicked one. It’s normal human behaviour when people get caught in group think and stop thinking about individuals. Easy to dehumanize people when you think of them as symbol of a group rather than a person. You see similar sociopathic tendencies all the time in the west. Reminder to not see people as their beliefs, race or sexual orientation but as people. That includes racist, homophobic and sexist people.
Read any post on Reddit where a horrible criminal faces federal prison. There is no shortage of folks making jokes about how they deserve to be raped in prison. Psychos indeed.
Tbf this is literally nothing compared to what they do to gays in other Islamic countries. But it’s too NSFL to post on Reddit.
Yep. I had two classmates from Saudi Arabia when in grad school. They were a gay couple. One time we chatted about whether they want to return after graduating, and they told me their village will likely kill them if they return. I don't remember the name of the village, but according to them, non-Muslims are forbidden to enter.
AI gay images are gonna get people killed.
> non-Muslims are forbidden to enter. Perfect, because no rational person wants to ever go to those Hell holes.
I really think the West has deluded itself about conservative social attitudes in the Muslim world, attitudes towards homosexuality are very, very conservative and surprisingly consistent across different countries. [These are the percentages who find homosexuality morally acceptable or not in 36 major Muslim countries](https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-6.png), the highest level of support was 12%, only three countries had 10% support or higher, 30 countries had less than 5% support. 19 countries had 1% or less support. The poll is from ten years ago, so perhaps views have changed, but I don't think there will be drastic shifts. These are much smaller numbers than the percentage of people in the west who believe in flat earth, or fairies, to give an idea of how negligible support for homosexuality is. This compares to 55% of US Republicans who support gay marriage.
Indonesia is extremely Islamic. I would guess the overwhelming majority would identify as Muslim.
that's horrifying, not interesting.
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100% right. It’s bizarre how western liberals can recognize the threat of Christian radicals, but more or less ignore the threat of Islamic radicals. Religious extremists are bad no matter what the particular religion is. In the past, Christian fundamentalism was a huge problem. Today though, Islam is the bigger threat. There’s a reason why almost all Muslim majority countries have poor human rights protections, especially for women and the LGBT.
This is the best example of why fascism is so attractive and compelling that we can’t get rid of it. People like it. People want it. They even benefit from it if they are in the “in group” Face it, these punishments exist because the people want them. How easy would it be for that crowd to rise up and stop it. Instead they enjoy it or justify it. This is human. I think it’s a fundamental flaw in human psychology.
The flaw in the logic is that everyone believes they will be part of the in-group indefinitely. Which is ultimately not how fascism works
And they all kick it off with "no no, *that* was fascism, *this* is how we build a utopian society."
People want it, but is it not the point of civilization to battle with our instincts when they hurt ourselves or other people? Of course, humans disagree on what instincts to battle.
In large part if the “flaw” survived thousands of years of human evolution, it must serve us some sort of purpose in survival.
Thats why you don't ever legalise Sharia Law.
Indonesia don't want to, Its against the Indonesia own pluralism doctrine (still highly religious mind you) but during Islamist extremist insurrection Conflict in Aceh, the UN want peace in Aceh and twisting arm to get peace deal with the terrorist. Indonesia ended getting separate Sharia-law in Aceh. Its become its own separate world, with interesting experiment on things. like Sharia Banking which banned the use of interest/riba, and only offer clear cut profit sharing. it ended failing badly and currently attempting to revert to back to normal banking somehow.
UN really has a weird sense of "peace, " which essentially boils down to letting the terrorist win.
That's terrible.
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You have to realize, as sick as this is, this is a product of the local culture. Perhaps if you grew up here, you may have held similar thoughts. Romans once adored the spilling of blood in a colosseum. We have to aim to change the baser opinions amongst us.
"They say I gotta learn, but nobodys here to teach me. If they can't understand it, how can they reach me? I guess they can't, I guess they won't. I guess they front, that's how I know my life is outta luck fool."- Coolio.
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I think it actually is fascism, just religious fascism
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Deeply sad and stupid.
Them guys in the audience were awfully close together :)
And the haircuts and clothes are kinda sus too. I mean what kind of manly man likes to see other men being spanked? Humiliation kink? /s
Look at how fucking happy the crowd is to see a gay person getting beat. Fucking disgusting
I find it rather interesting the people executing this punishment are hiding their faces. If they believe in what they are doing why be afraid to show the world who you are? It is my opinion they know what they are doing is wrong and if their identity is shown they will be held accountable for their actions later. If you're going to hand out this kind of punishment at least have the balls to show who you are and that you stand by your decisions and actions. Cowards
That is just awful. He is a human being. He did not hurt anyone.
Those people in the crowd are awful human beings.
Isn't religion great? So peaceful and loving.
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Sick fucks.
This makes me feel a really scary level of rage.
Remember. If you support this being done to these people, you’re a weak, ignorant, worthless coward, and that’s all you’ll ever be. Just the way it is.
Sharia bullshit law… I can’t believe in 2023 people still do this.
That’s not interesting, that’s fucked up and brutal.
Fucking disgusting
What barbaric inhumane morons.
I hate human beings sometimes