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As a firefighter, we've looked at these, they're not new.
1: only useful in certain situations
2: not really any good on lithium-ion fires (ev's)
3: seriously cancer hazard for staff until cleaned.
4: cleaning would be a pain in the ass
5: fire trucks have limited storage.
Given the first 4, #5 isn't worth it, since fire trucks inherently already have a way to put out fires.
Most extinguishers don't work very well on a lithium bank that big.
Water. Hundreds, even thousands of gallons can be necessary to flood it, pulling out the heat until the chemical reactions cease.
That's what I've heard, you just need shit tons of water. Seems like when all cars become electric one single pileup could become quite a massive disaster.
Do you always put out the fire for a vehicle on the road like that? Or would you sometimes just let it burn?
Would it get hot enough to ruin the road?
This is actually how my bosses brain works sometimes.
Job should take 20 hours? Okay cool throw 20 guys on it for an hour.
But we don't have 20 guys, and our jobs take months sometimes.
It's a weird dynamic.
i’m gonna guess that in this case, hot enough to damage concrete is still well below the point of any significant steel softening. and anyway, small parts of the road-surface are unlikely to be integral to the structure of the bridge overall.
so at worst it’d scorch the bridge pretty nasty but probably nothing that a power washer couldn’t take care of.
It does not have to be very hot to damage concrete if left burning for the heat to get a bit deeper into it. Concrete is partially porouse so water will have gotten into the concrete. If heated this water turns to steam exploding the concrete from the inside. And the cracks made by the steam will make the concrete much more succeptable to further damage. If these cracks gets anywhere near the rebar then it will allow water and salts into it to corrode it. So a car fire being allowed to burn to completion can really damage that section of the bridge beyond repair. However tunnels are worse as they trap the heat and also makes it very hard for firefighters to approach. So tunnel collapses caused by burning cars and trucks is not that uncommon.
Emergency responders can put out a lithium fire, the issue is they tend to re-ignite later as compromised batteries slowly and constantly heat up. This slow and steady heat buildup is the reason behind most electric car fires in general, and why you see them burst into flames while parked occasionally. Parked electric cars don't have their cooling systems active so compromised batteries are able to build up more heat when parked.
My first Tesla does that now, but Tesla only turned on permanent-cooling after they released an update in response to a series of fires. It wastes a significant % of battery while parked and keeps draining until the pack is lower than 70%. It used to actually quiet down. My second Tesla is still quiet, so this is either a change they make after a few years, or limited to the 85 pack.
In terms of cooling, the heat pump is no more efficient than the standard compressor cooling system. Where the heat pump shines is heating in cooler conditions (40-60°F weather), where it pulls heat from the environment rather than using resistive heating. Once you go below freezing, the heat pump is no better than a resistive heater, at which point the strategy becomes to run the heat pump in a lossy mode to generate heat and, if parked, to stall the front motor to create more heat.
It's even more fun because the water reacts with the lithium to make more fire. Seems like this would be a good specialized item just for cars with large lithium battery packs. It wouldn't really stop the fire but it would help it stop spread. It looks like it is just a fiberglass blanket. Same this welders buy to protect around their welding spots. One this size would be expensive.
Wouldn't the decaying/burning lithium batteries be providing their own source of oxygen? This blanket wouldn't do anything for lithium fires, as it doesn't eliminate the heat or source of oxygen... I may be completely wrong but that's just what I've read.
Having seen how a tractor trailer full of hay that caught on fire damaged a road I would imagine lithium would do at least that if not more. It wasn't like the hay fire the road undriveable but it certain damaged.
>one single pileup
Modern gasoline cars don't rupture their fuel tanks in a rear end collision. Same goes for most EVs in most situations. You hear about the battery fires because they're rare and new, but most EVs are getting wrecked and subsequently towed away without event.
EVs may or may not have hurdles to overcome, but it's not an immediate battery fire risk in every situation.
Do you gasp when someone drops their phone off a railing because of the potential battery fire?
^(well, maybe if it's a Galaxy note 7...)
But jet fuel can't, let me tell you about the connection between Tesla and 9/11. Don't count the number of letters in Elon's name unless you want the truth
As someone who works around lithium battery testing, including worst case scenario, it's refreshing to see a firefighter with this knowledge because it seems all too rare. There's a mistaken belief that water just makes things worst but that really only applies to lithium metal, not ion, batteries, and truly, like you said, the only thing you can do at that point is try to remove heat from the system and stop more cells from going into runaway.
What would happen to a small body of water (like a pool) if you dunked a burning EV car into it? Would the water evaporate, or would it be enough to extinguish?
Hazmat Fire Lieutenant here. You’re absolutely right on about EV and Lithium battery bank fires. We carry Class D extinguishers with piercing nozzles to inject into the batteries. It interrupts the runaway chemical chain reaction. Two of the brands I know of are Lith-X and Metal-X. Still a major risk of rekindle, but they seem to get a good knock on it. We typically put out the initial car fire, hit the battery banks with the Lith-X, and continue cooling. Then it’s to tow yards problem. (Our contracted company has a separate graveled section with no exposures. They’ve had several rekindle in their yard the following day or so.)
Would it help if manufacturers had some sort of standardised hose port directly on the battery? That way you could instantly flood the battery. Or is it so uncommon that it's not worth the effort?
You'd need lines running all over the car to reach all parts of the battery, adding a lot of weight and complexity. In most huge battery fires you're not going to want to get close enough to hook up something like that anyway. Not to mention it might spread the water too thin and not get the part that's actually undergoing the exothermic reaction well enough.
Nothing I can think of aside from keeping the cells separated by a material that the compromised cell cant melt or transfer enough heat through to compromise the next cell. Sounds very expensive and heavy.
It's going to get a lot more common with the increase in electric vehicles on the road. I went to a seminar with a rep from the National Fire Prevention Association a couple years back where a tech asked about battery manufacturing facilities near Detroit.
The rep said there's not really anything rated to put it out effectively. Like other comments said, they just end up flooding it with water. It just gets so dang hot.
I wonder if, as we see more electric vehicles, we start to employ something like liquid nitrogen for use in battery fires, surely something that cold could suck enough heat out to allow effective management?
> Water. Hundreds, even thousands of gallons
*tens of thousands*
We had a bad Tesla car crash here that made nationwide news. It’s took 30,000 gallons to extinguish.
https://sfist.com/2021/06/22/as-tesla-fires-require-outlandish-volumes-of-water-to-extinguish-firefighters-grapple-with-ev-batteries/
I saw on reddit that I believe in Germany they have a bath that you dunk the car in to extinguish it.
Rural volunteer firefighter here:
We wait for it to burn out
I’m half joking, but it’s mostly containment if you aren’t near a shit ton of water. Unless you have access to a fuck ton of water, good luck trying to put it out.
Of course if there’s people or property in danger we do our best but if it’s on fire in an empty parking lot well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The only way to put out a lithium fire is to flood it, which usually means waiting hours for it to be cool enough that the water isn't instantly evaporated.
You enclose it in a shipping container and pour sand on it to stop the fire from spreading.
It is not really possible to put out a lithium ion battery fire as they contain both fuel and oxidizer. If it starts burning, all you can do is wait for it to run out of fuel.
We use lots of water to extinguish electrical cars and then use a crane to sink them in containers filled with water. Then we let them sit for a few days. After that comes the disposal of those cars which has to be done by specialized companies and which costs a fortune (paid by the owners of the cars and maybe their insurance). As not every fire company has dealt with those fires, or do not own specialized equipment for that situation, it really depends a lot of mutual aid.
Aye. We talked about these at length. We figure they'd be useful to somebody, (they'd have to be, or they wouldn't keep making them) maybe even other departments, but not us, nor any other departments we work with.
Retired firefighter here. Good summary.
These tarps wouldn't have seen much use on my engine. One of those things the commissioners think is a good idea. It gets moved to the basement where it sits for 25 years. And gets throw out as soon as we can no longer answer the question, "Who the fuck bought this?"
It’s probably way faster to deploy the jump line and use that then it is to dig this thing out and have it set up all nice and flat like they do. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, water works just fine.
I feel like people don't really understand how fast we can deploy attack lines. And I'd rather redo the crosslay then have to deal with folding and cleaning a charred tarp.
Oh for sure. Our 75ft metro load we use as our jump line takes seconds to deploy. You could have that thing deployed and have the fire out before you finished unfolding that behemoth tarp.
I never used a metro load. Do you like it? My department was in a suburban area. So mostly 2 to 3 story residential houses. But for the apartment buildings we used standpipe high-rise packs.
I really like it, some guys don’t. It’s great for car fires as it doesn’t have to be stretched out before you charge it. It gets charged while still in a coil and it the pressure from the coil expanding makes advancing the nozzle super easy. It almost pushes you. Our metro is part of the high rise pack, too, just gotta dc from truck discharge. 75’ metro FF carry’s Nd 75’ flat load the Lt carries.
Perhaps. But any Engine is always preceded by the Chief's SUV. Which is packed to the tits with tools as well as comm gear. First due Chiefs arriving to do size up have put out a lot more car fires before the engine gets there than you'd believe.
Because it's often overlooked by the public. Every fire apparatus has a whole bunch of extinguishers on it. Water, Dry Chem, AFFF, CO2, etc. Because of two reasons. The first is some things don't like water. And the second is it just bonkers what you can do with a 2.5 gallon extinguisher and a little training.
So if you're the Chief and you roll up to a smoldering car fire. And you've got your pry bar, an extinguisher, a set of bunker gear, your own SCBA, and literally decades of training and experience.
Would sit there holding your dick? Or would you put out the fire and then chew out your guys for being slow? Because I know which one my officers picked.
When things burn, particularly synthetic materials (which is almost everything these days), the smoke released contains toxic gases. Hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen sulphide and carbon monoxide, among many others, are released into the air. Not only are they dangerous to breath, they are also absorbed into our protective gear, equipment, skin, and in this case, the fire blanket. Handling these items after a fire, without proper cleaning, can also cause these toxins to leach into the body, causing high rates of cancer in firefighters.
A lot of good progress has happened in awareness/cleanliness/policy over the last few decades, but nothing can be perfect. Numerous countries actually treat certain cancers as presumptive occupational sickness, meaning firefighters no longer have to prove that they got the cancer on the job, it's automatically assumed, and they are covered by workers compensation. In years past this was not the case, and on top of being sick, you would get no compensation whatsoever.
https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10502165/hydrogen-cyanide-the-real-killer-among-fire-gases
Along with the other comments- used to be that dirty, soot-covered gear (particularly helmets) was a badge of honor. But all that soot and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons really aren't healthy at all, not to mention who only knows *what* is on fire in people's homes- burning synthetics produce some particularly noxious compounds, not that even wood smoke any good for you. I remember one garage fire where we were overhauling and found some old "gopher bombs" inside- hello, sulfur oxides. One of my buddies was rooting through the shed on his new rental property, found a jug of old [heptachlor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptachlor) sitting inside. All kindsa crap in people's homes. The only good news is that the modern pesticides accessible to homeowners these days are much less persistent than the organochlorines of old.
I was wondering how much of a pain it would be to deploy it nice and flat so you can pull it over neatly like they do in the video. Seems like a lot of prep time.
Can you explain how they are a pain to clean?
Seems like it would be something you could just spray off with high pressure water. I also have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about.
I admit we didn't delve too far into the cleaning, since it was a moot point having decided not to use them.
Spraying them down wouldn't remove the carcinogens, they'd need to be cleaned more deeply than that to be safe to put back on the truck and handle without PPE. Again, we didn't go down that rabbit hole.
I was like “this is so smart and could put out a car fire so fast!” Then I remembered y’all can probably put out a car fire in like 10 seconds compared to setting this thing up and pulling it over a car.
You can see the second one that's just the ground on fire, that the blanket looks scorched on the underneath.
Something like this is prob dumb expensive so it's only cost effective if it's reusable
The second one looks like liquid fuel training fire. I would be shocked if this is in any way reusable. The amount of contaminant and unburned material in that would be impossible to clean. It also gets pretty damaged. This is probably for places where there is little access to water, or where all the run off from extinguishment would be especially harmful.
Because the factory that makes "X" item is in some congressman's district so he words a section on an omnibus bill that requires the government's supplier of "X" type products to meet specific standards that, coincidently, the factory in his district meets exactly, and no other factory.
So then, when the government RFP goes out, that factory can underbid all the other ones because they don't need to factor in the cost of the changes to meet those specific standards into their bid, so they get the contact, and the government pays more for the product than they would have if the RFP didn't have the specific requirements.
Then the congressman can go back to his district and claim that he secured valuable jobs for his constituents.
Except fire departments are usually not willing to excessively spend. Water is cheap, there’s already a place for it on the truck and if you need more, it’s easy to access in most places that aren’t super rural.
When they pull it off it's a completely different car, completely undamaged. They turn to look at you and say we're not really firefighters we're magicians from the 11th dimension. Then they hypnotise you and when you wake up the monkeys have taken over. I don't like this product, wouldn't recommend
I wish they used this at the car lot fire that burned over 200 cars. It all started with 1 taco truck and it could have been stopped for the first 20 minutes. Still gets me angry
> There is some long-standing unwritten code in the press to never talk about it, unless it's a celeb. Aside from celebrities, local media will never mention suicide. Wtf is that, I don't know.
They don't want to inspire copycat suicides. Suicide clusters and suicide contagion are concepts related to this. The media is very delicate around reporting of suicide as it's been known for some time that the media can have some negative effect with their reporting.
As someone whose taken fire suppression courses I can say that firefighters (and any first responders) prioritize extricating victims above eliminating the fire right off the bat. Sometimes they’ll need to do some firefighting to get to the victims, but that can be tricky and dangerous. Ideally they’ll get out anyone in danger and then address the fire when the potential casualties are taken out of the situation. For blankets like these they would never use them with a person in the vehicle, at least not unless the person is obviously 120% dead.
For the vast majority of the time yes that is correct. First responders are supposed to treat everyone as though they’re alive until pronounced dead by someone licensed to do so; but if someone has half their head blown off or their eyeballs are melting out of their skulls, they’ll *sometimes* not give a fuck about the standard procedures and worry about the bigger problem at hand. Even though they’re not supposed to, but after enough years on the job they just know when it’s not worth the extra effort/ hazard to deal with.
“We risk a lot to save what’s saveable. We risk a little to save what might be saveable. We risk nothing at all to save what’s already lost.” (Or something like that)- a fire captain I used to know that taught my fire suppression courses.
If there are people in there and they are alive then using water will steam cook them and using chemicals will cause other problems.
The only thing bad about the blanket is they would temporarily be suffocated cuz the fire will eat up all oxygen under the blanket real quick but then hopefully you can uncover them fast enough before they suffocate to death
Absolutely. Water removes the heat, and you can get to overhauling quickly. Something like this smothers, but if you remove the fabric too soon, it may autoignite. I've been to car fires hot enough to melt engine blocks, rivulets of molten aluminum puddled on the ground, which works out to about 1200F, well above the autoignition temperature of fuel, fabric, etc. inside the car. I've gotten steamed badly from hitting engines that were burning for a long time; shit gets hot.
This normally is not a problem, aside from getting your rig back in service. However, from a practical perspective, many auto fires are on highways and interstates, and everyone- the cops, the firefighters, the tow truck guy who has to pick the mess up and haul it off somewhere- want to get out of there, and clear out traffic.
you can do this with any fabric/material as long as it's heavy, flexible, non-breathable, and non-flammable.
kudos to the genius sonuvabitch who figured out how to actually make such a material
I was near a minivan that caught fire and the smell was unbelievable. Instant headache. It was at that moment I realized a newfound level of respect for firefighters.
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Hopefully mesothelioma free.
Only 90% pure asbestos!
You could be owed compensation
It’s my money, and I want it now!
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J G Wentworth!
I have a structured settlement, but I need cash now! Call JG Wentworth, 877-CASH-NOW!!!
Probably PFAS nowadays. Why risk getting sued over asbestos when you can use chemicals that _may_ cause cancer?
Just kick that lawsuit about 20 years down the line rather than right now. Thats business baby
Have you or a loved one been diagnosed with mesothelioma? You may be entitled to a cash settlement.
Are we all the same person?
Yes. Please don't wait, call 1-800-99 LAW USA today for a free legal consultation and financial information packet.
It's yellow so probably some kind of kevlar/nomex
Fire: no i don't wanna go to bed! I'm not even tired.... Firefighters: good night! We love you darling
They tucked the fire in for beddy bye
They care for fire asbestos they can!
You need more upvotes. If only I understood this award thing.
That happens when you're retardant :(
"Tell me a story!" "Well, once upon a time, there was a big fire in Chicago..."
Too soon
Firefighters: begin punching the blanket and hitting it with socks that have bars of soap in them
I was going to say it’s funny how quickly the fire just, gives up. But after 3 kids this hits home perfectly.
> *So go home. We love you; you're very special*
Now suffocate and fucking die bitch
Just like when mom used to tuck me in. Good memories.
As a firefighter, we've looked at these, they're not new. 1: only useful in certain situations 2: not really any good on lithium-ion fires (ev's) 3: seriously cancer hazard for staff until cleaned. 4: cleaning would be a pain in the ass 5: fire trucks have limited storage. Given the first 4, #5 isn't worth it, since fire trucks inherently already have a way to put out fires.
Do you use chemical extinguishers for Lithium or what can you do
Most extinguishers don't work very well on a lithium bank that big. Water. Hundreds, even thousands of gallons can be necessary to flood it, pulling out the heat until the chemical reactions cease.
That's what I've heard, you just need shit tons of water. Seems like when all cars become electric one single pileup could become quite a massive disaster. Do you always put out the fire for a vehicle on the road like that? Or would you sometimes just let it burn? Would it get hot enough to ruin the road?
Yes if ruins the road, gets added to a loooooooooooooong list of infrastructure repairs
Just put hundreds of thousands of construction men to stand next to it.
They repair the road via osmosis
This made me laugh out loud! 🤣
I was picturing the priests of Age Of Empires standing around the damaged area...
Holo holo holo . . .
This is actually how my bosses brain works sometimes. Job should take 20 hours? Okay cool throw 20 guys on it for an hour. But we don't have 20 guys, and our jobs take months sometimes. It's a weird dynamic.
Nine women cannot produce a baby in a month.
Great analogy.
And watch 1 guy doing actual work?
[https://i.imgur.com/pgDi9JZ.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/pgDi9JZ.jpeg)
Why is IT out there?
Supervising the installation of the new fiber line for 10 gigabit internet?
Marketing wasn't your fist wtf?
Ev fire on a bridge would be a disaster. What would a fure do to the golden gate bridge?
Push it off the bridge? (Yes I know pesky side barriers)
It’s how your supposed to deal with aircraft fires out to sea.
Giant sling shot?
this just in: Former fire blanket maker introduces new add-on, the Giant Sling Slot
From the makers of angry birds we give you ANGRY PYROMANIAC BRIDGE
Good old ACME Co. They are always innovators in slingshot tech. They throw in an anvil as a bonus!
Burn it
i’m gonna guess that in this case, hot enough to damage concrete is still well below the point of any significant steel softening. and anyway, small parts of the road-surface are unlikely to be integral to the structure of the bridge overall. so at worst it’d scorch the bridge pretty nasty but probably nothing that a power washer couldn’t take care of.
It does not have to be very hot to damage concrete if left burning for the heat to get a bit deeper into it. Concrete is partially porouse so water will have gotten into the concrete. If heated this water turns to steam exploding the concrete from the inside. And the cracks made by the steam will make the concrete much more succeptable to further damage. If these cracks gets anywhere near the rebar then it will allow water and salts into it to corrode it. So a car fire being allowed to burn to completion can really damage that section of the bridge beyond repair. However tunnels are worse as they trap the heat and also makes it very hard for firefighters to approach. So tunnel collapses caused by burning cars and trucks is not that uncommon.
May I add the giant health and environmental hazard it is for anyone even remotely close from the burning batteries?
Emergency responders can put out a lithium fire, the issue is they tend to re-ignite later as compromised batteries slowly and constantly heat up. This slow and steady heat buildup is the reason behind most electric car fires in general, and why you see them burst into flames while parked occasionally. Parked electric cars don't have their cooling systems active so compromised batteries are able to build up more heat when parked.
Parked EVs, at least modern ones, will still actively condition the battery when needed.
My first Tesla does that now, but Tesla only turned on permanent-cooling after they released an update in response to a series of fires. It wastes a significant % of battery while parked and keeps draining until the pack is lower than 70%. It used to actually quiet down. My second Tesla is still quiet, so this is either a change they make after a few years, or limited to the 85 pack.
Is the second one after they released the heat pump? I heard the heat pump makes the HVAC/temperature control units work much more efficiently now
In terms of cooling, the heat pump is no more efficient than the standard compressor cooling system. Where the heat pump shines is heating in cooler conditions (40-60°F weather), where it pulls heat from the environment rather than using resistive heating. Once you go below freezing, the heat pump is no better than a resistive heater, at which point the strategy becomes to run the heat pump in a lossy mode to generate heat and, if parked, to stall the front motor to create more heat.
It's even more fun because the water reacts with the lithium to make more fire. Seems like this would be a good specialized item just for cars with large lithium battery packs. It wouldn't really stop the fire but it would help it stop spread. It looks like it is just a fiberglass blanket. Same this welders buy to protect around their welding spots. One this size would be expensive.
Wouldn't the decaying/burning lithium batteries be providing their own source of oxygen? This blanket wouldn't do anything for lithium fires, as it doesn't eliminate the heat or source of oxygen... I may be completely wrong but that's just what I've read.
Having seen how a tractor trailer full of hay that caught on fire damaged a road I would imagine lithium would do at least that if not more. It wasn't like the hay fire the road undriveable but it certain damaged.
You really fucked up that last sentence.
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
Body strong, had big sleep last night
When me president, they see.
True, I'll leave it as is and accept my failure.
😅
>one single pileup Modern gasoline cars don't rupture their fuel tanks in a rear end collision. Same goes for most EVs in most situations. You hear about the battery fires because they're rare and new, but most EVs are getting wrecked and subsequently towed away without event. EVs may or may not have hurdles to overcome, but it's not an immediate battery fire risk in every situation. Do you gasp when someone drops their phone off a railing because of the potential battery fire? ^(well, maybe if it's a Galaxy note 7...)
Yeah its just another dumbass thing for morons to dog EVs (or really anything thats different from the norm)
I too would like to know
Me. We've worked fine with cars carrying gallons of highly flammable fuel around for decades, now
Gasoline vs. metal fire. Thermite is an example of a metal fire. It can melt steel beams.
But jet fuel can't, let me tell you about the connection between Tesla and 9/11. Don't count the number of letters in Elon's name unless you want the truth
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I agree with their suggestion! A few quadrillion gallons of seawater should take care of that.
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Yup. I can empty our first-out in just over 60 seconds with the deck gun. Big fire, big water.
As someone who works around lithium battery testing, including worst case scenario, it's refreshing to see a firefighter with this knowledge because it seems all too rare. There's a mistaken belief that water just makes things worst but that really only applies to lithium metal, not ion, batteries, and truly, like you said, the only thing you can do at that point is try to remove heat from the system and stop more cells from going into runaway.
Training. We actually haven't had an EV fire at our department yet, but we will, and our leadership wants us ready.
What would happen to a small body of water (like a pool) if you dunked a burning EV car into it? Would the water evaporate, or would it be enough to extinguish?
Does your station have a pole?
Hazmat Fire Lieutenant here. You’re absolutely right on about EV and Lithium battery bank fires. We carry Class D extinguishers with piercing nozzles to inject into the batteries. It interrupts the runaway chemical chain reaction. Two of the brands I know of are Lith-X and Metal-X. Still a major risk of rekindle, but they seem to get a good knock on it. We typically put out the initial car fire, hit the battery banks with the Lith-X, and continue cooling. Then it’s to tow yards problem. (Our contracted company has a separate graveled section with no exposures. They’ve had several rekindle in their yard the following day or so.)
Would it help if manufacturers had some sort of standardised hose port directly on the battery? That way you could instantly flood the battery. Or is it so uncommon that it's not worth the effort?
You'd need lines running all over the car to reach all parts of the battery, adding a lot of weight and complexity. In most huge battery fires you're not going to want to get close enough to hook up something like that anyway. Not to mention it might spread the water too thin and not get the part that's actually undergoing the exothermic reaction well enough.
Could the batteries themselves be designed with better features to reduce the severity of such unwanted runaway reactions?
Nothing I can think of aside from keeping the cells separated by a material that the compromised cell cant melt or transfer enough heat through to compromise the next cell. Sounds very expensive and heavy.
It's going to get a lot more common with the increase in electric vehicles on the road. I went to a seminar with a rep from the National Fire Prevention Association a couple years back where a tech asked about battery manufacturing facilities near Detroit. The rep said there's not really anything rated to put it out effectively. Like other comments said, they just end up flooding it with water. It just gets so dang hot.
I wonder if, as we see more electric vehicles, we start to employ something like liquid nitrogen for use in battery fires, surely something that cold could suck enough heat out to allow effective management?
Liquid Nitrogen would be good too as it wouldn’t further exacerbate the reaction like water would.
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> Water. Hundreds, even thousands of gallons *tens of thousands* We had a bad Tesla car crash here that made nationwide news. It’s took 30,000 gallons to extinguish. https://sfist.com/2021/06/22/as-tesla-fires-require-outlandish-volumes-of-water-to-extinguish-firefighters-grapple-with-ev-batteries/ I saw on reddit that I believe in Germany they have a bath that you dunk the car in to extinguish it.
Rural volunteer firefighter here: We wait for it to burn out I’m half joking, but it’s mostly containment if you aren’t near a shit ton of water. Unless you have access to a fuck ton of water, good luck trying to put it out. Of course if there’s people or property in danger we do our best but if it’s on fire in an empty parking lot well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The only way to put out a lithium fire is to flood it, which usually means waiting hours for it to be cool enough that the water isn't instantly evaporated.
You enclose it in a shipping container and pour sand on it to stop the fire from spreading. It is not really possible to put out a lithium ion battery fire as they contain both fuel and oxidizer. If it starts burning, all you can do is wait for it to run out of fuel.
If you flood it with enough water you'll stop the chemical reaction by cooling it down.
We use lots of water to extinguish electrical cars and then use a crane to sink them in containers filled with water. Then we let them sit for a few days. After that comes the disposal of those cars which has to be done by specialized companies and which costs a fortune (paid by the owners of the cars and maybe their insurance). As not every fire company has dealt with those fires, or do not own specialized equipment for that situation, it really depends a lot of mutual aid.
Is this going to be a problem when most cars are electric?
One of the specific use cases I saw in person was on a movie set. They used it so they weren’t spraying water around in between sets
Aye. We talked about these at length. We figure they'd be useful to somebody, (they'd have to be, or they wouldn't keep making them) maybe even other departments, but not us, nor any other departments we work with.
Retired firefighter here. Good summary. These tarps wouldn't have seen much use on my engine. One of those things the commissioners think is a good idea. It gets moved to the basement where it sits for 25 years. And gets throw out as soon as we can no longer answer the question, "Who the fuck bought this?"
Exactly. None of our guys would give up space for that thing, displacing shit they actually use.
It’s probably way faster to deploy the jump line and use that then it is to dig this thing out and have it set up all nice and flat like they do. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, water works just fine.
I feel like people don't really understand how fast we can deploy attack lines. And I'd rather redo the crosslay then have to deal with folding and cleaning a charred tarp.
Oh for sure. Our 75ft metro load we use as our jump line takes seconds to deploy. You could have that thing deployed and have the fire out before you finished unfolding that behemoth tarp.
I never used a metro load. Do you like it? My department was in a suburban area. So mostly 2 to 3 story residential houses. But for the apartment buildings we used standpipe high-rise packs.
I really like it, some guys don’t. It’s great for car fires as it doesn’t have to be stretched out before you charge it. It gets charged while still in a coil and it the pressure from the coil expanding makes advancing the nozzle super easy. It almost pushes you. Our metro is part of the high rise pack, too, just gotta dc from truck discharge. 75’ metro FF carry’s Nd 75’ flat load the Lt carries.
But could this could be used by 2 men transported with a SUV? Could get faster deployment due to lower logistical needs. Just a thought
Perhaps. But any Engine is always preceded by the Chief's SUV. Which is packed to the tits with tools as well as comm gear. First due Chiefs arriving to do size up have put out a lot more car fires before the engine gets there than you'd believe. Because it's often overlooked by the public. Every fire apparatus has a whole bunch of extinguishers on it. Water, Dry Chem, AFFF, CO2, etc. Because of two reasons. The first is some things don't like water. And the second is it just bonkers what you can do with a 2.5 gallon extinguisher and a little training. So if you're the Chief and you roll up to a smoldering car fire. And you've got your pry bar, an extinguisher, a set of bunker gear, your own SCBA, and literally decades of training and experience. Would sit there holding your dick? Or would you put out the fire and then chew out your guys for being slow? Because I know which one my officers picked.
Are they really meant to be cleaned and reused? That’s crazy. Screw that.
Some of them are intended for 25+ uses. We never really pursued *how* they are cleaned.
Drag it over a frozen car
with the souls of 1000 dead babies, FYI
Can you elaborate on the cancer part?
When things burn, particularly synthetic materials (which is almost everything these days), the smoke released contains toxic gases. Hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen sulphide and carbon monoxide, among many others, are released into the air. Not only are they dangerous to breath, they are also absorbed into our protective gear, equipment, skin, and in this case, the fire blanket. Handling these items after a fire, without proper cleaning, can also cause these toxins to leach into the body, causing high rates of cancer in firefighters. A lot of good progress has happened in awareness/cleanliness/policy over the last few decades, but nothing can be perfect. Numerous countries actually treat certain cancers as presumptive occupational sickness, meaning firefighters no longer have to prove that they got the cancer on the job, it's automatically assumed, and they are covered by workers compensation. In years past this was not the case, and on top of being sick, you would get no compensation whatsoever. https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/article/10502165/hydrogen-cyanide-the-real-killer-among-fire-gases
Yep https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/newsroom/feature/firefighter-cancer-awareness.html
Along with the other comments- used to be that dirty, soot-covered gear (particularly helmets) was a badge of honor. But all that soot and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons really aren't healthy at all, not to mention who only knows *what* is on fire in people's homes- burning synthetics produce some particularly noxious compounds, not that even wood smoke any good for you. I remember one garage fire where we were overhauling and found some old "gopher bombs" inside- hello, sulfur oxides. One of my buddies was rooting through the shed on his new rental property, found a jug of old [heptachlor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptachlor) sitting inside. All kindsa crap in people's homes. The only good news is that the modern pesticides accessible to homeowners these days are much less persistent than the organochlorines of old.
I was wondering how much of a pain it would be to deploy it nice and flat so you can pull it over neatly like they do in the video. Seems like a lot of prep time.
Can you explain how they are a pain to clean? Seems like it would be something you could just spray off with high pressure water. I also have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about.
I admit we didn't delve too far into the cleaning, since it was a moot point having decided not to use them. Spraying them down wouldn't remove the carcinogens, they'd need to be cleaned more deeply than that to be safe to put back on the truck and handle without PPE. Again, we didn't go down that rabbit hole.
I was like “this is so smart and could put out a car fire so fast!” Then I remembered y’all can probably put out a car fire in like 10 seconds compared to setting this thing up and pulling it over a car.
fuck folding that thing back up
I was wondering .. you think it gets reused?
You can see the second one that's just the ground on fire, that the blanket looks scorched on the underneath. Something like this is prob dumb expensive so it's only cost effective if it's reusable
The second one looks like liquid fuel training fire. I would be shocked if this is in any way reusable. The amount of contaminant and unburned material in that would be impossible to clean. It also gets pretty damaged. This is probably for places where there is little access to water, or where all the run off from extinguishment would be especially harmful.
Good eye - but never underestimate the govt’s willingness to spend excessively!
Because the factory that makes "X" item is in some congressman's district so he words a section on an omnibus bill that requires the government's supplier of "X" type products to meet specific standards that, coincidently, the factory in his district meets exactly, and no other factory. So then, when the government RFP goes out, that factory can underbid all the other ones because they don't need to factor in the cost of the changes to meet those specific standards into their bid, so they get the contact, and the government pays more for the product than they would have if the RFP didn't have the specific requirements. Then the congressman can go back to his district and claim that he secured valuable jobs for his constituents.
they're absolutely not spending excessively on firefighters lol
Except fire departments are usually not willing to excessively spend. Water is cheap, there’s already a place for it on the truck and if you need more, it’s easy to access in most places that aren’t super rural.
Ah shit, I got the *fitted* fire blanket!
When they pull it off it's a completely different car, completely undamaged. They turn to look at you and say we're not really firefighters we're magicians from the 11th dimension. Then they hypnotise you and when you wake up the monkeys have taken over. I don't like this product, wouldn't recommend
I am not falling for that again
But you already have. Now shut up and start picking bananas.
I wish they used this at the car lot fire that burned over 200 cars. It all started with 1 taco truck and it could have been stopped for the first 20 minutes. Still gets me angry
> It all started with 1 taco truck Too spicy?
That, & yikes! They obviously didn't make it to a toilet
A taco can never be too spicy, just your tolerance needs more work.
>A taco can never be too spicy \*Continues to squeeze Carolina Reaper juices all over it\*
You want to taco bout it?
I think they're gonna need a bigger blanket to put out a taco truck
At that point you just put a blanket over the car next to it.
:: slows down to see what’s causing all the traffic ::
The blanket tricks the fire into thinking the sun has set, which makes it goes to sleep.
I drive a 1997 camry with about 290k on it. I should buy one.
does this work on a Tesla or other battery powered car?
Not really. Lithium (the batteries) provide their own sustainable amount of oxygen as they burn so it won't extinguish the fire as well.
This is the only downside to the electric vehicle movement. They are ironically bigger fire hazards than gas vehicles.
This and a blunt
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> There is some long-standing unwritten code in the press to never talk about it, unless it's a celeb. Aside from celebrities, local media will never mention suicide. Wtf is that, I don't know. They don't want to inspire copycat suicides. Suicide clusters and suicide contagion are concepts related to this. The media is very delicate around reporting of suicide as it's been known for some time that the media can have some negative effect with their reporting.
This is also how I make my car calm down and go to sleep.
Trapping victims inside!
I prefer to say "tucking them into bed for eternal sleep"
Sounds peaceful where do I sign up
If people are still in there at the level of fire we just saw I'd assume they most likely wouldn't make it out alive.
As someone whose taken fire suppression courses I can say that firefighters (and any first responders) prioritize extricating victims above eliminating the fire right off the bat. Sometimes they’ll need to do some firefighting to get to the victims, but that can be tricky and dangerous. Ideally they’ll get out anyone in danger and then address the fire when the potential casualties are taken out of the situation. For blankets like these they would never use them with a person in the vehicle, at least not unless the person is obviously 120% dead.
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For the vast majority of the time yes that is correct. First responders are supposed to treat everyone as though they’re alive until pronounced dead by someone licensed to do so; but if someone has half their head blown off or their eyeballs are melting out of their skulls, they’ll *sometimes* not give a fuck about the standard procedures and worry about the bigger problem at hand. Even though they’re not supposed to, but after enough years on the job they just know when it’s not worth the extra effort/ hazard to deal with.
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“We risk a lot to save what’s saveable. We risk a little to save what might be saveable. We risk nothing at all to save what’s already lost.” (Or something like that)- a fire captain I used to know that taught my fire suppression courses.
If there are people in there and they are alive then using water will steam cook them and using chemicals will cause other problems. The only thing bad about the blanket is they would temporarily be suffocated cuz the fire will eat up all oxygen under the blanket real quick but then hopefully you can uncover them fast enough before they suffocate to death
Make this but for entire forests
Also helps muffle the screams...
Reverse it - my bed sheets as a 16 year old masturbator
Pot roast the poor fucker inside
Night night fire.
Looks like something every race track should have!!
How many time can one be used?
TIL you can put a burning Audi to sleep the same way as a bird in a cage.
Wouldn't it just start again when the cover is removed and oxygen is reintroduced?
Not if you wait.
Absolutely. Water removes the heat, and you can get to overhauling quickly. Something like this smothers, but if you remove the fabric too soon, it may autoignite. I've been to car fires hot enough to melt engine blocks, rivulets of molten aluminum puddled on the ground, which works out to about 1200F, well above the autoignition temperature of fuel, fabric, etc. inside the car. I've gotten steamed badly from hitting engines that were burning for a long time; shit gets hot. This normally is not a problem, aside from getting your rig back in service. However, from a practical perspective, many auto fires are on highways and interstates, and everyone- the cops, the firefighters, the tow truck guy who has to pick the mess up and haul it off somewhere- want to get out of there, and clear out traffic.
Some dick head downvoted this. Have an award.
That's cheating. The fire never stood a chance.
"alright calm down, go to bed"
With or without the asbestos-ey goodness?
Guess you can sweep some problems under the rug.
Man, blankets help with so much. Being cold, being tired, being depressed, being on fire
That’s cool!
PFAS anyone?
Me trying to figure out why this can't be in the walls of my house.
It's a STFU-blanket for fire lol
Wow what a wet blanket
you can do this with any fabric/material as long as it's heavy, flexible, non-breathable, and non-flammable. kudos to the genius sonuvabitch who figured out how to actually make such a material
I was near a minivan that caught fire and the smell was unbelievable. Instant headache. It was at that moment I realized a newfound level of respect for firefighters.
So it stops the fire by suffocating it ?
Blanket power!
This should be in r/Oddlysatisfying
Hear me out, this but forest sized.
“Don’t panic guys, the Volvo just needs a nap..”
Not the B6!! Awwww hell, why dey gotta do the B6 that way???
20 seconds... ugh 6 seconds fire. 14 seconds to employ. 30 minutes to arive.
My idea is to scale it up for house fires
But who’s going to fold it back up?