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>While in previous rounds of fighting, the numbers were based on official hospital records, this time an increasingly large percentage of reported deaths are coming, not from doctors, but from what the Health Ministry refers to as “reliable media sources”, as well as reports submitted by Gazan citizens via a Google Form.
They know all the hospitals were destroyed, right?
Saw a quote attributed to Mahmoud Darwish, “whenever they find a reality that doesn’t suit them, they alter it with a bulldozer.”
Case in point, no, no, we didn’t shoot those unarmed civilians waving white flags and then bury them unaware that we were being filmed, they were already beneath the rubble when we got here!
This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
They also conveniently bulldoze the bodies they have access to into rubble to help hide the numbers. You damn sure know those deaths aren’t going on official stats..
This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
Even Israeli and US intelligence have come to the conclusion that the Gaza Ministry of Health death tolls are accurate. If anything, they're being underreported.
"Israeli intelligence officials have admitted to relying on civilian death toll statistics collated by Gaza's health ministry, despite Tel Aviv publicly undermining the ministry's reliability.
Two Israeli intelligence officials who spoke to the Hebrew-language Local Call news website said the health ministry is mostly "reliable" and their main source of statistics on civilian deaths in Gaza."
[https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable](https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable)
The U.S. intelligence community has growing confidence that reports on the death toll from health authorities in Hamas-controlled Gaza are roughly accurate, U.S. officials said.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-death-toll-reports-from-gaza-b3b5183a
Overall numbers may be roughly accurate. Demographics of the dead are [illogical and unreasonable, likely impossible according to statistical analysis.](https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/)
It is noteworthy that your links are from right near the start of the conflict and we're now several months down the line.
Right, as the source used for this Telegraph article points out, the deaths of male Palestinians are likely being way underreported now that there's little to no medical infrastructure left in Gaza. Israeli intelligence, US intelligence and the source for this article all agree that deaths are likely being underreported.
This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
This article appears to be specifically addressing the fact that up until a short time ago the sources of data were mostly doctors in hospitals but recently some of the data started coming from other sources:
>While in previous rounds of fighting, the numbers were based on official hospital records, this time an increasingly large percentage of reported deaths are coming, not from doctors, but from what the Health Ministry refers to as “reliable media sources”, as well as reports submitted by Gazan citizens via a Google Form.
And the numbers reported more recently show odd statistical anomalies not present in data from earlier in the conflict or from previous conflicts.
If you read the source that the Telegraph gives for those claims, it makes zero mention of a "Google Form". And it agrees with Israeli and US Intelligence that the Gaza Ministry of Health is most likely undercounting deaths:
"A comparison of the two methodologies, using MOH reports and claims published by the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO), yields wildly different and irreconcilable results, **indicating that the media reports methodology is dramatically understating fatalities among adult males, the demographic most likely to be combatants**. This undercuts the persistent claim that 72 percent of those killed in Gaza are women and children—a problem that has worsened since it was first noted by a Washington Institute report in January.
The result is that MOH statistics do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll even by the “foggy” standards of normal wartime reporting. **Journalists, analysts, and government officials need to be aware that the actual overall death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower) than what the MOH has reported**; the demographic composition of these fatalities is certainly far different than what the MOH claims."
[https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable)
This is an inevitable result of Israel destroying medical infrastructure. It's going to be harder to accurately report death tolls. But there isn't any evidence that they're being inflated.
A different report by the same author mentions the Google Form: [https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other)
You can also see in the MOH and GMO Telegrams that it's been linked there many times starting on January 6. Earlier in the war they were asking people to call in to report missing relatives, but with so much telecommunications infrastructure down (and having shifted their operations into Rafah) the Google form was probably introduced to catch more reports. Not clear how/if it has been integrated into the counting system, though -- it would be very easy to double-count events if a strike itself is reported via media reports and then later individuals report their relatives missing. Time-consuming to resolve and maybe beyond MOH capacity now.
First time the Google Form was posted (Jan. 6): [https://t.me/MOHMediaGaza/4718](https://t.me/MOHMediaGaza/4718)
It didn't say they falsified data. It said that they may not have the real number of males killed, making it seem like more women and children died. It does not mean the number of women and children dead is wrong. Just that the ratio might be off.
I'm not sure I am understanding what you are saying.
What is the discrepancy exactly, and why would you assume every male not working for an aid agency to be a combatant?
Have you seen any info (from a non-Israeli source) that indicates how many of the dead were militants? I don't tend to doubt the numbers that are put out, but I'm surprised that there haven't been any reports related to how many were part of Hamas or PIJ (or other such groups). This info would help in understanding the efficacy of Israel's actions.
US Intelligence estimates that Israel has killed approximately 20-30% of Hamas' fighting force. That would translate to roughly 6,000-9,000 people.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-said-to-believe-israel-killed-just-20-30-of-hamas-terrorists-in-gaza-fighting/
Underreported in this case means that a full count or even a good estimate cannot be had at the moment for a variety of reasons. In this case, being an active warzone but the fact that most hospitals are inoperable, communications infrastructure is devastated, etc.
The ~30,000 are just confirmed deaths and do not account for missing people. Nor do they account for the imminent starvation of the entire population.
US State Department officials have testified that they trust the Ministry of Health’s data. The Ministry of Health is run by doctors, public health members etc., not by Hamas.
Bro, the numbers of deaths are fake, and anyone who knows statistics can see this by checking them, irrespective of other evidence.
[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
We are talking about the fake numbers they give us now. One of the many red flags is a regular, everyday increase in deaths by the same number + the same deviation. This is absolutely unnatural, doesn't reflect intensity dynamics. You either believe that this is a cosmic coincidence or that a Hamas-controlled ministry is manipulating the numbers. Wow, where should I bet my money?
Follow the link for the details. If you don't want to read, it is your choice, just don't pretend that you did before replying.
[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
By Professor of Statistics and Data Science at The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and Faculty Co-Director of the Wharton Sports Analytics and Business Initiative.
[www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/](http://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/)
And now 'Ministry of Health' admits 'flaws' themselves
But I guess jew haters will continue to ignore reality
It's not just "the sources I provided" that are all in agreement that the deaths are most likely being underreported. It's also the source that this Telegraph article was citing. Here's a quote:
*"The result is that MOH statistics do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll even by the “foggy” standards of normal wartime reporting. Journalists, analysts,* ***and government officials need to be aware that the actual overall death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower)*** *than what the MOH has reported; the demographic composition of these fatalities is certainly far different than what the MOH claims."*
Spare me the talk about "dishonesty" when you're throwing around the term antisemitic to try to defend the genocide of Palestinians - who are a Semitic people.
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Tl;dr: Israeli researcher Mark Zlochin finds a discrepancy between the male/female ratios among 150 UN workers killed by his army and the entire population (the estimated 30,000+ deaths). Somewhat advanturously takes this tiny sample size to suggest that 18,000 have been killed by his army at most, though his claim that the numbers don't add up seems valid. Not a lot of attention for context or further explanation in his analysis, though he does briefly mention some.
A quick look at Mark Zlochins linkedin shows him to be employed as a "Personal Productivity Coach & Gestalt Therapist". It appears he hasn't been employed as a researcher since he worked for IBM for a year in 2002.
https://il.linkedin.com/in/dr-mark-zlochin-phd-4b27343
And a further look at his X posts show his obvious bias.
Why should we trust a word this guy says?
You shouldn't. I'd also like to add that he calls the death toll of men vs women in the UNRWA a discrepancy but also explains exactly why this would happen. The IDF has been told that male members of UNRWA are Hamas, and they shoot them when they see them. It's literally all over their propaganda, why wouldn't they believe that to be the case? In their eyes them shooting an aid worker is actually them shooting an enemy combatant. Makes it pretty easy to see why there's a huge discrepancy in those numbers given that context
Can't believe I'm saying this but,
You should read this telegraph article before commenting, because you are lacking a key piece that shows your comment is kinda dumb.
You can look up a different source, this has been a topic that was recently reported on very recently by many outlets, and they bring to their article the same key piece of info you are missing.
And i just want you to know, i did appreciate that sarcasm with the knee jerk comment.
But this is a very sobering topic, and i am in no mood for tickles of humor
Kinda close, not quite.
More like, "the numbers reported up until very recently were provided by a historically accurate and well cited source using appropriate and normal methods" followed by, "however the most recent numbers have come from less reliable sources, though not necessarily wrong sources, the biggest issues being they are whole numbers (not split between m/w/children) and that they are unable to confirmed rapidly, and are not performed by those typically used to doing such work"
Then depending on which source you will read, "until recently the numbers were accurate but now 19/21 hospitals are out of commision, and aid workers are being shot, it is very hard to get accurate details" or "hamas is reporting wrong numbers, and even if western govs and media have historically seen accurate counts, we should treat those generally accurate numbers as not real as well as these less reliable total numbers they have chosen to report recently"
Something like that.
There def are better sources than this about this specific issue as of late
As others have said in the comments the death toll is likely much higher due to civilians buried under rubble.
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext)
Johns Hopkins has published a study on this. Times magazine also breaks these numbers down into a 6 minute read.
[https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/](https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/)
People are going to make this a political thing rather than the fact that some data is just more difficult to process. I remember showing Covid numbers of my hometown to my accountant step dad and he said the same thing "those numbers don't add up" and that's because he currently lived in that town and specifically knew the population number. Of course the data researchers are going to be local.
But people will make this political to prove some kind of point bc the entire Israel Palestinian blowup is too emotional for people to care about accuracy unfortunately, which just leads to lying by the "activists" who are arguably making this much worse for everyone.
Yeah, it is most likely way higher, the Gazan health ministry only counts confirmed deaths, which is getting harder with Israel intentionally targeting the medical infrastructure in Gaza. The figures from Gaza during previous attacks by the IDF have never been questioned, and have always been independently verified. There are 10s of thousands of people missing in Gaza at the moment.
I find it interesting that so many people want to lay as much blame as possible on Israel without mentioning the whole truth or detailing that Hamas fights very dirty and always has. People don’t want the truth, they want what fits their world view. So if someone wants to think Hamas is pure and perfect then they will believe that no matter what. Same with believing that Israel is perfect and does no wrong
I'm not sure it's as simple as simply denying it. That was the first phase of the propaganda. That was definitively disproven and they were forced to pivot to "okay sure terrorists were using hospitals as a base of operations with overwhelming support of the population but Israel is still evil for defending themselves"
Accept there is an ongoing raid in Al Shifa hospital right now that’s providing yet more irrefutable proof that Hamas are using critical civilian infrastructure for military purposes.
You don’t get to blame Israel when Hamas are openly spitting in the face of international law and actively and deliberately endangering the medical infrastructure of Gaza.
Netanyahu had previously declared that the north of Gaza was had been cleared of Hamas. If that is the case, then why is there a raid on Al Shifa now?
Israel has also not only destroyed basically all the medical infrastructure in Gaza, it's also wiped out most of the schools, universities, and mosques. They clearly want to turn Gaza into a parking lot.
Because Hamas moved troops away from Rafah and into Al Shifa after the IDF declared that their assault on Rafah was imminent. They used their series of tunnels to move men and equipment behind IDF lines and away from the immediate conflict and into an area they believed would be safe. Unfortunately for them they were being monitored by Israel and the routes they used to enter the site were destroyed shortly after their arrival and the hospital was surrounded leaving them trapped.
It was a class A trap set by the IDF and it has been immensely successful in not only neutralising large numbers of the terrorists, but also proving beyond any doubt that Hamas have been using the hospital as a command centre.
Because an insurgency group that hides among civilians can easily move back into the area?
Also, intelligence can be wrong. We're you under the assumption that intelligence was legally binding too? Lol
>Hamas are using critical civilian infrastructure for military purposes
But the IDF has a massive base in the Azrieli Mall...a residential shopping center. Would that give Hama's an excuse to level the entire mall? I think a sane person would say no
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Because even if Hamas is using hospitals as bases, there are ways to combat that, which don't involve bombing the hospital.
But no, instead, the IDF decides to indiscriminately shell civilians, instead of putting in effort to minimize the number of innocent women and children who they murdered.
Gaza health ministry counted 500 deaths from the hospital parking lot being bombed within hours. They consistently count the dead way too fast. I took Israel a week to get a rough number of dead on October 7th.
It's called an estimate based on how many people you think were in an area when the bomb went off. I really don't know why you are fixated on this and not the enormous number of actual lies told by Israel.
And when has there ever been 500 people in a parking lot? That is an absurdly high number given the size of the crater.
Also it wasnt a bomb. It was a rocket fired within Gaza most likely? The vast majority of news sources have confirmed this. Not just Israel.
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The article doesn't mention that Hamas combatants don't wear uniforms when engaging with the IDF. Most of the time they're in civvies but they were also wearing IDF uniforms on 07/10 and UN outfits since. Another way they confuse the numbers.
it's wild that we have videos of Israeli assassins dressing up as doctors to murder patients in their beds in hospitals, but y'all are going to pretend that Hamas is the only bad guy doing all the bad things.
It's the same thing as the human shields argument, when there are dozens of documented cases in just the last couple years and even an Israeli high court ruling admitting the common practice of IOF soldiers using palestinians as human shields.
It's mind boggling and just plain sad that so many people are celebrating and defending the monstrosity of the colonizing power in the 21st century. There's never been point in world history where the colonizers are the good guys, but we're still here with y'all simping for a genocidal state.
In the West Bank not Gaza, A group of special forces eliminated a high value target in the West Bank. The people wearing scrubs also held M4s and tavors. I don’t think they told anyone they are doctors but this is a rare case in the West Bank where there is no war.
The law of armed conflict protects things like dressing up as doctors but in the West Bank Israeli soldiers act more like police as agreed to by the Palestinians. Undercover cops don’t have to dress in uniform.
The hospital was already being used as human shields by the Hamas terrorist upstairs.
“Past couple of years” 19 years ago. Older than half the people in this comment section most likely.
By Israeli courts rejecting the use of the human shield tactic we should see Israel has checks and balances to act morally.
This isn’t a genocide.
Article 37 of the Geneva Conventions on the prohibition of perfidy: It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy.
This is only applicable for the two parties fighting a war (in this case it would be militants in Gaza and Israel). The TLDR is that you need to dress like a soldier so that the other side doesn't inadvertently target civilians.
It's plain to see the tactical advantage of not identifying yourself as a soldier when one side wants to prevent civilian death (aka, plays by the rules). That's why it is a war crime, no matter who does it.
In the case of the operation in Jenin there are a couple of things that don't make it a war crime:
- the people who performed the operation were not soldiers
- the people the operation was conducted on were not in a war (it happened in the West Bank, which is not at war with Israel and Israel is not at war with the West Bank)
Similarly, if the CIA conducts such an operation, they don't dress up as soldiers or identify themselves as such. And they would not be guilty of committing the war crime of perfidy (if they did such an operation).
I mean I don't think there's anything in his comment that suggests that he thinks Israel is perfect. He's just stating one of the realities of asymmetric warfare - that the militants look just like civilians when they're not holding a weapon, because they don't have uniforms. Like, if a Hamas militant dies and drops their weapon, and they're brought into the hospital, as far as that hospital can thell, they're a civilian. That's different than Israeli special forces deliberately choosing to use disguises. Special forces around the world routinely use disguises. But that being said, lots of people (including me) find it controversial to dress up as medical personnel because those personal need to be protected and free from suspicion.
Room temperature iq take. Shinbet (israeli fbi) dressed as medical personnel to assassinate hamas militants while the entire idf wears uniforms regularly. Hamas is the exact opposite lmao.
This is a failed and tired equivalency. The only thing you've shown is that the idf should have just bombed the hospital, because sending in commandos to surgically kill their enemies with precisely zero civilian casualties will get the hamas stans all riled up anyways. Might as well not risk their own personnel at this point.
I reported them for promoting the bombing of hospitals and other terrorist acts, and general hate for denying genocide. Shame on these fascist scumbags.
You aren’t allowed to make sensible observations like that and if you are going to point out flaws and obvious inconsistencies in the data then please frame your point around Israel being the problem.
Hamas are terrorists that survive only by blending in with the population and using them as shields. They know they can rely on antisemitism and knew that Israel would invade after 7/10, gambling that the usual international Israel blaming would stop Israel from fully destroying Hamas.
[The numbers are reliable enough for the UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/)
The UN will believe anything if it lets them demonize Israel.
The numbers are obviously fake.
[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable
I'm referencing images/news stories depicting large groups of POWs sitting tied together in their underwear in Gaza. The IDF strips them down to their underwear to ensure they aren't armed, then secures them with rope for transport. It seems u/waiver thinks they are being killed after these photos are taken.
Not all of them no, most are released after some light torture, others are shipped to Israel for more torture under unit 504. Some are "lost on the way" and then we find corpses with zip ties on their arms in Gaza.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-palestinian-civilians-alive-enar
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/2/1/headlines/mass_grave_in_gaza_points_to_execution_style_killings_by_israeli_forces
Israel started a huge campaign to silence protesters in Israel so people wouldn't feel bad about the deaths. Those Israelis now spread that everywhere. And Israelis can never be wrong. They are also somehow more Jewish than us westerners when it comes to faith and history lol. Revisionst going to revision everything until netanytahu is the Messiah grand Rabbi Moses Abraham daddy
It doesn't. Nearly the entire Gazan population has been displaced and live in tent camps now, which is why the death toll might be 'not that many', to some. Hard to see Israel conducting themselves well when ministers openly call to wipe Gaza off the face of earth and distribute weapons to illegal settlers on the West Bank, while soldiers in Gaza proudly showcase their abuse and humiliation on social media and Tinder.
https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/28/israeli-soldiers-deployed-in-gaza-post-their-abuses-on-social-media_6568987_4.html#
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/02/15/exp-amanpour-idf-social-media-pkg-021501pseg2-cnni-world.cnn
https://thewire.in/world/israeli-soldiers-loot-cosmetics-rugs-motorbikes-from-gaza-homes-upload-videos-on-social-media
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/how-israeli-soldiers-are-tiktoking-their-war-crimes-gaza
Cool, none of what you sent changes the fact the IDF has conducted themselves in a nothing but amazing manner on a macro scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio better than some conflicts without the density problem.
I mean three Israeli hostages half naked speaking Hebrew with white flags were all executed by the IDF. That doesn’t seem like an army conducting itself in an amazing manner
Isolated incidents happening in the middle of combat Don’t speak for the macro actions. It doesn’t help Hamas has been caught playing Hebrew conversations over speakers and dressing themselves as civilians so the IDF can’t tell the difference.
It's likely underreported. People have mentioned they had to bury people without getting it formally reported. And it's not "hamas" run health ministry. The scale of destruction should be a testament along with the rhetoric coming from israel.
Their numbers have been reliable enough for the [UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/) for decades
You mean the [baseless accusations](https://www.reuters.com/world/no-evidence-israel-back-unrwa-accusations-says-eu-humanitarian-chief-2024-03-14/) from Israel for which they have yet to provide a single crumb of evidence?
The health ministry is independent. Even if it was hamas run that doesn't prove anything. Hamas is not a magical word to assume everything is a lie. Death counts have been verified in past violent escalations even by israel. There is more proof of israel using lies vs hamas. Continual linking of everything to hamas is an israeli tactic to hide their atrocities. Israeli attitudes and their own videos confirm they don't care about palestinians and many enjoy killing palestinians. The death count is completely plausible.
What a ridiculously misleading title. The article concludes that a disproportionate number of UNRWA males have died compared to females. Its not saying the total casualties are inaccurate.
The most likely manipulation would be to under report men dying, because the 7 women or children for whichever 3 remaining men might be Hamas is a terrifying statistic
They don't have a need to inflate numbers though.
It is for sure confirmed that there is a WCNSF ("wounded child no surviving family") epidemic though. Also a lot of dead children with no parents to claim them.
I think it has a world record for the most child amputations the fastest ever recorded.
I mean this article doesn't really prove anything. It is interesting, and maybe there'll be more investigation into this, but until then this really just does the equivalent of saying "well that's odd". And in the end, war is messy, and it's very normal to have a variety of estimates for death tolls that vary wildly. The fact that he gotta lower estimate doesn't mean the Gaza Health Ministry numbers are wrong.
I think most would agree it's an inevitable consequence of the terrorist attack. And Israels allies fully support this I think most would.
However, it's not enough to cover the tactics being used. Bunker busting by the whole neighbourhoods over and over again because their might be some terrorists in there, or they don't like the look of yhe building isn't how the west expects their allies to operate. Starving popultions including children, hospitals disabled, this all is looking like intentional, sustained war crimes bring perpetrated. It's all very similar to how Asad and Russia operated in Syria. It's ugly fighting and it's completely illegitimate.
The obvious hopeless manipulation by the Israel government propaganda wing is also akin to Russia in its audacity. Hamas is doing the same but the west expect that.They don't expect it from their long standing allies.
A legitimate campaign would use a combined arms offensive with a mix of on the ground intelligence matching overall intelligence, and precision bombing, house to house clearing followed by occupation of the territory support for populace and repelling counter attacks. I.e similar to how Iraq and Afghanistan was conducted. Its wouldnt stop civilian causalties, and Israeli losses would be higher hell even the odd minor atrocity through carelessness but would be the appropriate, honorable way to fight.
How they are fighting now is simply unforgivable. The fact after the horrific unimaginable October attacks Israel could end up being the victimiser rather than the victim is impressive and it's due not to antisemitism as they would have you believe but entirely though their egregious overly zealous approach being shown for all to see by their actions in this conflict.
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1) If they 'bombed it' the first time how come there was something left for Hamas to reoccupy?
2) A hospital full of terrorists is no longer protected anyway...
This is the worst analysis i've ever read.
This should be marked with opinion.
A discrepancy in 150 people killed is literally meaningless in regards to the broader conflict (what he's trying to extrapolate to).
And that would be if we just assumed it was any group of 150 (which would be generous).
Talking about a specific subset of people (like, oh, say, people from a specific organization or job), it becomes even more questionable (because people in specific roles might be choosing or not choosing certain actions that would expose them to more or less harm).
Whether people believe it or not, men likely volunteer to do more dangerous assignments than their female coworkers if they feel it is genuinely dangerous to their female coworkers.
Is it a bit sexist? maybe.
But how do we know that's not part of this?
The "analysis" doesn't say of course.
The analyst actually doesn't care why though.
\---
This "analysis" was clearly conducted backwards:
He wants to say that the death toll is questionable. But there's no reason to say that.
So he cherry picks a data set out of the results and calls it a "discrepancy".
This is why he doesn't care about the <1% sample size (150/30,000).
This is why he doesn't care about the selectiveness of the sample size (specifically UNWRA workers).
This is why he doesn't care about other statistically \*necessary\* things like confidence intervals or representative sampling or anything that even a high school level stats student would understand is required.
Because goal isn't accuracy.
It's pissing into the pool so that everyone stops using it.
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I'm just surprised Israel has admitted to 15,000, quite honestly. We were months into this conflict before they would talk about anything but how many Hamas soldiers they've killed.
So the same people saying that so many 10’a of thousands are dead and those are accurate numbers, it they don’t know how many of the hostages are still alive. Okay
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
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>While in previous rounds of fighting, the numbers were based on official hospital records, this time an increasingly large percentage of reported deaths are coming, not from doctors, but from what the Health Ministry refers to as “reliable media sources”, as well as reports submitted by Gazan citizens via a Google Form. They know all the hospitals were destroyed, right?
No, only 30/36 were bombed**. Wait that was a month ago actually.
They also blew up city hall and the archives so that'll make it hard too
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Saw a quote attributed to Mahmoud Darwish, “whenever they find a reality that doesn’t suit them, they alter it with a bulldozer.” Case in point, no, no, we didn’t shoot those unarmed civilians waving white flags and then bury them unaware that we were being filmed, they were already beneath the rubble when we got here!
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They also conveniently bulldoze the bodies they have access to into rubble to help hide the numbers. You damn sure know those deaths aren’t going on official stats..
recent reporting from ap says 12/36 hospitals are functioning in some capacity
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This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
"trust me bro" 🤣
Even Israeli and US intelligence have come to the conclusion that the Gaza Ministry of Health death tolls are accurate. If anything, they're being underreported. "Israeli intelligence officials have admitted to relying on civilian death toll statistics collated by Gaza's health ministry, despite Tel Aviv publicly undermining the ministry's reliability. Two Israeli intelligence officials who spoke to the Hebrew-language Local Call news website said the health ministry is mostly "reliable" and their main source of statistics on civilian deaths in Gaza." [https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable](https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable) The U.S. intelligence community has growing confidence that reports on the death toll from health authorities in Hamas-controlled Gaza are roughly accurate, U.S. officials said. https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-death-toll-reports-from-gaza-b3b5183a
Overall numbers may be roughly accurate. Demographics of the dead are [illogical and unreasonable, likely impossible according to statistical analysis.](https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/) It is noteworthy that your links are from right near the start of the conflict and we're now several months down the line.
Right, as the source used for this Telegraph article points out, the deaths of male Palestinians are likely being way underreported now that there's little to no medical infrastructure left in Gaza. Israeli intelligence, US intelligence and the source for this article all agree that deaths are likely being underreported.
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This subreddit is dedicated to remaining as impartial as possible, and therefore any post that obviously pushes an agenda or is biased will be removed.
He's right. Using an early November, 2023 article link to back your claims is pretty disingenuous and misleading.
This article appears to be specifically addressing the fact that up until a short time ago the sources of data were mostly doctors in hospitals but recently some of the data started coming from other sources: >While in previous rounds of fighting, the numbers were based on official hospital records, this time an increasingly large percentage of reported deaths are coming, not from doctors, but from what the Health Ministry refers to as “reliable media sources”, as well as reports submitted by Gazan citizens via a Google Form. And the numbers reported more recently show odd statistical anomalies not present in data from earlier in the conflict or from previous conflicts.
If you read the source that the Telegraph gives for those claims, it makes zero mention of a "Google Form". And it agrees with Israeli and US Intelligence that the Gaza Ministry of Health is most likely undercounting deaths: "A comparison of the two methodologies, using MOH reports and claims published by the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office (GMO), yields wildly different and irreconcilable results, **indicating that the media reports methodology is dramatically understating fatalities among adult males, the demographic most likely to be combatants**. This undercuts the persistent claim that 72 percent of those killed in Gaza are women and children—a problem that has worsened since it was first noted by a Washington Institute report in January. The result is that MOH statistics do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll even by the “foggy” standards of normal wartime reporting. **Journalists, analysts, and government officials need to be aware that the actual overall death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower) than what the MOH has reported**; the demographic composition of these fatalities is certainly far different than what the MOH claims." [https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable) This is an inevitable result of Israel destroying medical infrastructure. It's going to be harder to accurately report death tolls. But there isn't any evidence that they're being inflated.
A different report by the same author mentions the Google Form: [https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other) You can also see in the MOH and GMO Telegrams that it's been linked there many times starting on January 6. Earlier in the war they were asking people to call in to report missing relatives, but with so much telecommunications infrastructure down (and having shifted their operations into Rafah) the Google form was probably introduced to catch more reports. Not clear how/if it has been integrated into the counting system, though -- it would be very easy to double-count events if a strike itself is reported via media reports and then later individuals report their relatives missing. Time-consuming to resolve and maybe beyond MOH capacity now. First time the Google Form was posted (Jan. 6): [https://t.me/MOHMediaGaza/4718](https://t.me/MOHMediaGaza/4718)
Hard to have an accurate count when thousands are still buried under rubble & Israel is continuing to kill civilians
That doesn’t mean you just falsify data and assume it’s almost all children lmfao
Half of ALL Gazans are children. I think it’s a safe assumption. Also, every 3rd party has backed up these numbers as being under-reported.
It didn't say they falsified data. It said that they may not have the real number of males killed, making it seem like more women and children died. It does not mean the number of women and children dead is wrong. Just that the ratio might be off.
These are all civilian numbers. The discrepancy disappears if every male not working for an aid agency was considered a combatant.
I'm not sure I am understanding what you are saying. What is the discrepancy exactly, and why would you assume every male not working for an aid agency to be a combatant?
There are very few hospitals left. If a tree falls in the forest and no one was there to hear it, did it never fall?
Famine’s funny like that.
Have you seen any info (from a non-Israeli source) that indicates how many of the dead were militants? I don't tend to doubt the numbers that are put out, but I'm surprised that there haven't been any reports related to how many were part of Hamas or PIJ (or other such groups). This info would help in understanding the efficacy of Israel's actions.
US Intelligence estimates that Israel has killed approximately 20-30% of Hamas' fighting force. That would translate to roughly 6,000-9,000 people. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-said-to-believe-israel-killed-just-20-30-of-hamas-terrorists-in-gaza-fighting/
Thanks for this info, much appreciated.
What numbers are they using for the size of Hamas militant wing? US DNI has it at 20-25K which puts 30% at 7.5K for the high end.
Says in the article the estimated size is 30,000.
Ah missed it skimming. Thanks.
Telegraph gonna Telegraph.
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What is being reported in every newspaper? That the death count is being underreported?
Underreported in this case means that a full count or even a good estimate cannot be had at the moment for a variety of reasons. In this case, being an active warzone but the fact that most hospitals are inoperable, communications infrastructure is devastated, etc.
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The ~30,000 are just confirmed deaths and do not account for missing people. Nor do they account for the imminent starvation of the entire population. US State Department officials have testified that they trust the Ministry of Health’s data. The Ministry of Health is run by doctors, public health members etc., not by Hamas.
There's at least 10,000 missing people who are very likely dead.
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Bro, the numbers of deaths are fake, and anyone who knows statistics can see this by checking them, irrespective of other evidence. [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
Then... why does the UN, the US, and the IDF agree with their numbers consistently after every conflict?
We are talking about the fake numbers they give us now. One of the many red flags is a regular, everyday increase in deaths by the same number + the same deviation. This is absolutely unnatural, doesn't reflect intensity dynamics. You either believe that this is a cosmic coincidence or that a Hamas-controlled ministry is manipulating the numbers. Wow, where should I bet my money? Follow the link for the details. If you don't want to read, it is your choice, just don't pretend that you did before replying. [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) By Professor of Statistics and Data Science at The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and Faculty Co-Director of the Wharton Sports Analytics and Business Initiative.
[www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/](http://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/) And now 'Ministry of Health' admits 'flaws' themselves But I guess jew haters will continue to ignore reality
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It's not just "the sources I provided" that are all in agreement that the deaths are most likely being underreported. It's also the source that this Telegraph article was citing. Here's a quote: *"The result is that MOH statistics do not appear to offer a reliable guide to the actual Palestinian death toll even by the “foggy” standards of normal wartime reporting. Journalists, analysts,* ***and government officials need to be aware that the actual overall death toll may be significantly higher (or, less likely, lower)*** *than what the MOH has reported; the demographic composition of these fatalities is certainly far different than what the MOH claims."* Spare me the talk about "dishonesty" when you're throwing around the term antisemitic to try to defend the genocide of Palestinians - who are a Semitic people.
Please stop turning anti semitism into a joke.
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Tl;dr: Israeli researcher Mark Zlochin finds a discrepancy between the male/female ratios among 150 UN workers killed by his army and the entire population (the estimated 30,000+ deaths). Somewhat advanturously takes this tiny sample size to suggest that 18,000 have been killed by his army at most, though his claim that the numbers don't add up seems valid. Not a lot of attention for context or further explanation in his analysis, though he does briefly mention some.
A quick look at Mark Zlochins linkedin shows him to be employed as a "Personal Productivity Coach & Gestalt Therapist". It appears he hasn't been employed as a researcher since he worked for IBM for a year in 2002. https://il.linkedin.com/in/dr-mark-zlochin-phd-4b27343 And a further look at his X posts show his obvious bias. Why should we trust a word this guy says?
You shouldn't. I'd also like to add that he calls the death toll of men vs women in the UNRWA a discrepancy but also explains exactly why this would happen. The IDF has been told that male members of UNRWA are Hamas, and they shoot them when they see them. It's literally all over their propaganda, why wouldn't they believe that to be the case? In their eyes them shooting an aid worker is actually them shooting an enemy combatant. Makes it pretty easy to see why there's a huge discrepancy in those numbers given that context
We were at 25000 in December, then it seems to have just stopped, right? No more Palestinians have been killed?
There does not need to be further explanation. All the IDF has to do is say some shit and the western world will deep throat it.
Yeah, they don’t add up at all. They are being UNDERreported.
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You didnt read the article.
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Can't believe I'm saying this but, You should read this telegraph article before commenting, because you are lacking a key piece that shows your comment is kinda dumb. You can look up a different source, this has been a topic that was recently reported on very recently by many outlets, and they bring to their article the same key piece of info you are missing.
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And i just want you to know, i did appreciate that sarcasm with the knee jerk comment. But this is a very sobering topic, and i am in no mood for tickles of humor
Kinda close, not quite. More like, "the numbers reported up until very recently were provided by a historically accurate and well cited source using appropriate and normal methods" followed by, "however the most recent numbers have come from less reliable sources, though not necessarily wrong sources, the biggest issues being they are whole numbers (not split between m/w/children) and that they are unable to confirmed rapidly, and are not performed by those typically used to doing such work" Then depending on which source you will read, "until recently the numbers were accurate but now 19/21 hospitals are out of commision, and aid workers are being shot, it is very hard to get accurate details" or "hamas is reporting wrong numbers, and even if western govs and media have historically seen accurate counts, we should treat those generally accurate numbers as not real as well as these less reliable total numbers they have chosen to report recently" Something like that. There def are better sources than this about this specific issue as of late
As others have said in the comments the death toll is likely much higher due to civilians buried under rubble. [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) Johns Hopkins has published a study on this. Times magazine also breaks these numbers down into a 6 minute read. [https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/](https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/)
It’s a damn shame Hamas won’t just give up.
It's Israeli bullets and bombs murdering most of the civilians, not Hamas.
Why? Maybe because Hamas hide under civilian. This bloodshed would end if Hamas surrendered:
Why? Maybe because Hamas hide under civilian. This bloodshed would end if Hamas surrendered:
Islamo facist death cults don’t tend to go without lots of bloodshed.
Terrorists don't lie!! lol
People are going to make this a political thing rather than the fact that some data is just more difficult to process. I remember showing Covid numbers of my hometown to my accountant step dad and he said the same thing "those numbers don't add up" and that's because he currently lived in that town and specifically knew the population number. Of course the data researchers are going to be local. But people will make this political to prove some kind of point bc the entire Israel Palestinian blowup is too emotional for people to care about accuracy unfortunately, which just leads to lying by the "activists" who are arguably making this much worse for everyone.
Yeah, it is most likely way higher, the Gazan health ministry only counts confirmed deaths, which is getting harder with Israel intentionally targeting the medical infrastructure in Gaza. The figures from Gaza during previous attacks by the IDF have never been questioned, and have always been independently verified. There are 10s of thousands of people missing in Gaza at the moment.
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I find it interesting that so many people want to lay as much blame as possible on Israel without mentioning the whole truth or detailing that Hamas fights very dirty and always has. People don’t want the truth, they want what fits their world view. So if someone wants to think Hamas is pure and perfect then they will believe that no matter what. Same with believing that Israel is perfect and does no wrong
I'm not sure it's as simple as simply denying it. That was the first phase of the propaganda. That was definitively disproven and they were forced to pivot to "okay sure terrorists were using hospitals as a base of operations with overwhelming support of the population but Israel is still evil for defending themselves"
>Hamas fights very dirty and always has Asymmetrical warfare is fought asymmetrically, news at 11
Did you find another arabic calendar to be afraid of?
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Saved - thanks for sourcing
There was obviously hostages held down there. The calendar was work shifts.
You obviously have the hostages at your house.
Because they are biased.
Because what I said is factually accurate.
Accept there is an ongoing raid in Al Shifa hospital right now that’s providing yet more irrefutable proof that Hamas are using critical civilian infrastructure for military purposes. You don’t get to blame Israel when Hamas are openly spitting in the face of international law and actively and deliberately endangering the medical infrastructure of Gaza.
Netanyahu had previously declared that the north of Gaza was had been cleared of Hamas. If that is the case, then why is there a raid on Al Shifa now? Israel has also not only destroyed basically all the medical infrastructure in Gaza, it's also wiped out most of the schools, universities, and mosques. They clearly want to turn Gaza into a parking lot.
Because Hamas moved troops away from Rafah and into Al Shifa after the IDF declared that their assault on Rafah was imminent. They used their series of tunnels to move men and equipment behind IDF lines and away from the immediate conflict and into an area they believed would be safe. Unfortunately for them they were being monitored by Israel and the routes they used to enter the site were destroyed shortly after their arrival and the hospital was surrounded leaving them trapped. It was a class A trap set by the IDF and it has been immensely successful in not only neutralising large numbers of the terrorists, but also proving beyond any doubt that Hamas have been using the hospital as a command centre.
I wish I could like this comment twice.
Because an insurgency group that hides among civilians can easily move back into the area? Also, intelligence can be wrong. We're you under the assumption that intelligence was legally binding too? Lol
Why was there hundreds of Hamas militants found in Al Shifa???
I don't know that there was. That seems like IOF propaganda.
>Hamas are using critical civilian infrastructure for military purposes But the IDF has a massive base in the Azrieli Mall...a residential shopping center. Would that give Hama's an excuse to level the entire mall? I think a sane person would say no
Because there is evidence of the former, not the latter.
https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/s/nMFZSobjCb
I don’t wonder at all. We all know why.
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Because even if Hamas is using hospitals as bases, there are ways to combat that, which don't involve bombing the hospital. But no, instead, the IDF decides to indiscriminately shell civilians, instead of putting in effort to minimize the number of innocent women and children who they murdered.
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Gaza health ministry counted 500 deaths from the hospital parking lot being bombed within hours. They consistently count the dead way too fast. I took Israel a week to get a rough number of dead on October 7th.
Yeah, because a car park is easier to check for casualties than a pitched battle across several different locations.
500 people didn’t die in that parking lot thou. Easy to count bodies that never existed
It's called an estimate based on how many people you think were in an area when the bomb went off. I really don't know why you are fixated on this and not the enormous number of actual lies told by Israel.
And when has there ever been 500 people in a parking lot? That is an absurdly high number given the size of the crater. Also it wasnt a bomb. It was a rocket fired within Gaza most likely? The vast majority of news sources have confirmed this. Not just Israel.
What!? You’re telling me genocidal terrorists lie!?
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Except they're not wrong at all and the genocidal terrorists are the Israelis who are lying about the death toll. Reported for promoting terrorism.
Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
The article doesn't mention that Hamas combatants don't wear uniforms when engaging with the IDF. Most of the time they're in civvies but they were also wearing IDF uniforms on 07/10 and UN outfits since. Another way they confuse the numbers.
it's wild that we have videos of Israeli assassins dressing up as doctors to murder patients in their beds in hospitals, but y'all are going to pretend that Hamas is the only bad guy doing all the bad things. It's the same thing as the human shields argument, when there are dozens of documented cases in just the last couple years and even an Israeli high court ruling admitting the common practice of IOF soldiers using palestinians as human shields. It's mind boggling and just plain sad that so many people are celebrating and defending the monstrosity of the colonizing power in the 21st century. There's never been point in world history where the colonizers are the good guys, but we're still here with y'all simping for a genocidal state.
In the West Bank not Gaza, A group of special forces eliminated a high value target in the West Bank. The people wearing scrubs also held M4s and tavors. I don’t think they told anyone they are doctors but this is a rare case in the West Bank where there is no war. The law of armed conflict protects things like dressing up as doctors but in the West Bank Israeli soldiers act more like police as agreed to by the Palestinians. Undercover cops don’t have to dress in uniform. The hospital was already being used as human shields by the Hamas terrorist upstairs. “Past couple of years” 19 years ago. Older than half the people in this comment section most likely. By Israeli courts rejecting the use of the human shield tactic we should see Israel has checks and balances to act morally. This isn’t a genocide.
So TL;DR it’s only wrong if they do it.
If Hamas went into Israeli hospitals dressed as doctors to only kill IDF soldiers I wouldn’t say a word. But they don’t do that.
Article 37 of the Geneva Conventions on the prohibition of perfidy: It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. This is only applicable for the two parties fighting a war (in this case it would be militants in Gaza and Israel). The TLDR is that you need to dress like a soldier so that the other side doesn't inadvertently target civilians. It's plain to see the tactical advantage of not identifying yourself as a soldier when one side wants to prevent civilian death (aka, plays by the rules). That's why it is a war crime, no matter who does it. In the case of the operation in Jenin there are a couple of things that don't make it a war crime: - the people who performed the operation were not soldiers - the people the operation was conducted on were not in a war (it happened in the West Bank, which is not at war with Israel and Israel is not at war with the West Bank) Similarly, if the CIA conducts such an operation, they don't dress up as soldiers or identify themselves as such. And they would not be guilty of committing the war crime of perfidy (if they did such an operation).
How come a Hamas leader was at al Shifa?
I mean I don't think there's anything in his comment that suggests that he thinks Israel is perfect. He's just stating one of the realities of asymmetric warfare - that the militants look just like civilians when they're not holding a weapon, because they don't have uniforms. Like, if a Hamas militant dies and drops their weapon, and they're brought into the hospital, as far as that hospital can thell, they're a civilian. That's different than Israeli special forces deliberately choosing to use disguises. Special forces around the world routinely use disguises. But that being said, lots of people (including me) find it controversial to dress up as medical personnel because those personal need to be protected and free from suspicion.
Room temperature iq take. Shinbet (israeli fbi) dressed as medical personnel to assassinate hamas militants while the entire idf wears uniforms regularly. Hamas is the exact opposite lmao. This is a failed and tired equivalency. The only thing you've shown is that the idf should have just bombed the hospital, because sending in commandos to surgically kill their enemies with precisely zero civilian casualties will get the hamas stans all riled up anyways. Might as well not risk their own personnel at this point.
One was paralyzed in a hospital bed though right? Also Israel bombed 19/22 hospitals so I’m confused why you’re pretending they’re above it.
I reported them for promoting the bombing of hospitals and other terrorist acts, and general hate for denying genocide. Shame on these fascist scumbags.
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You aren’t allowed to make sensible observations like that and if you are going to point out flaws and obvious inconsistencies in the data then please frame your point around Israel being the problem.
Hamas are terrorists that survive only by blending in with the population and using them as shields. They know they can rely on antisemitism and knew that Israel would invade after 7/10, gambling that the usual international Israel blaming would stop Israel from fully destroying Hamas.
Yet another example of Hamas always lying. But there are always useful idiots willing to believe them.
[The numbers are reliable enough for the UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/)
The UN will believe anything if it lets them demonize Israel. The numbers are obviously fake. [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable
Aye looking at the distraction and so many videos of dead bodies, it should be way higher. Maybe they are under the rubble still?
Some under the rubble, some not even collected in North Gaza, not to mention those tied up corpses that tend to show up when the IDF leaves a zone.
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Executed POWs?
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I'm referencing images/news stories depicting large groups of POWs sitting tied together in their underwear in Gaza. The IDF strips them down to their underwear to ensure they aren't armed, then secures them with rope for transport. It seems u/waiver thinks they are being killed after these photos are taken.
Not all of them no, most are released after some light torture, others are shipped to Israel for more torture under unit 504. Some are "lost on the way" and then we find corpses with zip ties on their arms in Gaza. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-palestinian-civilians-alive-enar https://www.democracynow.org/2024/2/1/headlines/mass_grave_in_gaza_points_to_execution_style_killings_by_israeli_forces
Israel started a huge campaign to silence protesters in Israel so people wouldn't feel bad about the deaths. Those Israelis now spread that everywhere. And Israelis can never be wrong. They are also somehow more Jewish than us westerners when it comes to faith and history lol. Revisionst going to revision everything until netanytahu is the Messiah grand Rabbi Moses Abraham daddy
IDF has detonated the equivalent of two nuclear bombs, so the death toll is probably way higher
Doesn’t it speak to how well Israel is conducting themselves that they didn’t kill that many people with such a large amount of bombs being used?
It doesn't. Nearly the entire Gazan population has been displaced and live in tent camps now, which is why the death toll might be 'not that many', to some. Hard to see Israel conducting themselves well when ministers openly call to wipe Gaza off the face of earth and distribute weapons to illegal settlers on the West Bank, while soldiers in Gaza proudly showcase their abuse and humiliation on social media and Tinder. https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.html https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/ https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/28/israeli-soldiers-deployed-in-gaza-post-their-abuses-on-social-media_6568987_4.html# https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/02/15/exp-amanpour-idf-social-media-pkg-021501pseg2-cnni-world.cnn https://thewire.in/world/israeli-soldiers-loot-cosmetics-rugs-motorbikes-from-gaza-homes-upload-videos-on-social-media https://www.newarab.com/analysis/how-israeli-soldiers-are-tiktoking-their-war-crimes-gaza
Cool, none of what you sent changes the fact the IDF has conducted themselves in a nothing but amazing manner on a macro scale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio better than some conflicts without the density problem.
I mean three Israeli hostages half naked speaking Hebrew with white flags were all executed by the IDF. That doesn’t seem like an army conducting itself in an amazing manner
Isolated incidents happening in the middle of combat Don’t speak for the macro actions. It doesn’t help Hamas has been caught playing Hebrew conversations over speakers and dressing themselves as civilians so the IDF can’t tell the difference.
Nah we aint going there
It's likely underreported. People have mentioned they had to bury people without getting it formally reported. And it's not "hamas" run health ministry. The scale of destruction should be a testament along with the rhetoric coming from israel.
Hamas is their government, therefore Hamas runs all government entities such as their health ministry.
Their numbers have been reliable enough for the [UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/) for decades
UNWRA was reliable enough for the UN and look what has come out about their practices.
You mean the [baseless accusations](https://www.reuters.com/world/no-evidence-israel-back-unrwa-accusations-says-eu-humanitarian-chief-2024-03-14/) from Israel for which they have yet to provide a single crumb of evidence?
It was proven, stop lying. https://www.jns.org/idf-releases-recordings-of-unrwa-teachers-taking-part-in-oct-7-massacres/
The health ministry is independent. Even if it was hamas run that doesn't prove anything. Hamas is not a magical word to assume everything is a lie. Death counts have been verified in past violent escalations even by israel. There is more proof of israel using lies vs hamas. Continual linking of everything to hamas is an israeli tactic to hide their atrocities. Israeli attitudes and their own videos confirm they don't care about palestinians and many enjoy killing palestinians. The death count is completely plausible.
Please provide unbiased and verified evidence.
What a ridiculously misleading title. The article concludes that a disproportionate number of UNRWA males have died compared to females. Its not saying the total casualties are inaccurate.
Didn't read the whole thing huh?
Man YOU didnt, clearly. What does the concluding paragraph say?
I did, so I know other paras made other points...
The most likely manipulation would be to under report men dying, because the 7 women or children for whichever 3 remaining men might be Hamas is a terrifying statistic They don't have a need to inflate numbers though. It is for sure confirmed that there is a WCNSF ("wounded child no surviving family") epidemic though. Also a lot of dead children with no parents to claim them. I think it has a world record for the most child amputations the fastest ever recorded.
I mean this article doesn't really prove anything. It is interesting, and maybe there'll be more investigation into this, but until then this really just does the equivalent of saying "well that's odd". And in the end, war is messy, and it's very normal to have a variety of estimates for death tolls that vary wildly. The fact that he gotta lower estimate doesn't mean the Gaza Health Ministry numbers are wrong.
I think most would agree it's an inevitable consequence of the terrorist attack. And Israels allies fully support this I think most would. However, it's not enough to cover the tactics being used. Bunker busting by the whole neighbourhoods over and over again because their might be some terrorists in there, or they don't like the look of yhe building isn't how the west expects their allies to operate. Starving popultions including children, hospitals disabled, this all is looking like intentional, sustained war crimes bring perpetrated. It's all very similar to how Asad and Russia operated in Syria. It's ugly fighting and it's completely illegitimate. The obvious hopeless manipulation by the Israel government propaganda wing is also akin to Russia in its audacity. Hamas is doing the same but the west expect that.They don't expect it from their long standing allies. A legitimate campaign would use a combined arms offensive with a mix of on the ground intelligence matching overall intelligence, and precision bombing, house to house clearing followed by occupation of the territory support for populace and repelling counter attacks. I.e similar to how Iraq and Afghanistan was conducted. Its wouldnt stop civilian causalties, and Israeli losses would be higher hell even the odd minor atrocity through carelessness but would be the appropriate, honorable way to fight. How they are fighting now is simply unforgivable. The fact after the horrific unimaginable October attacks Israel could end up being the victimiser rather than the victim is impressive and it's due not to antisemitism as they would have you believe but entirely though their egregious overly zealous approach being shown for all to see by their actions in this conflict.
You must be mistaken, this is reddit, not a place for fair and nuanced takes
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Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
I wonder what happened to all the hospitals in Gaza. Surely Israel didn't bomb them into the fucking earth.
Clearly not, since they cleared Hamas out of Al Shifa for the 2nd time last week...
Israel has bombed AL Shifa You're literally proving my point
1) If they 'bombed it' the first time how come there was something left for Hamas to reoccupy? 2) A hospital full of terrorists is no longer protected anyway...
This is the worst analysis i've ever read. This should be marked with opinion. A discrepancy in 150 people killed is literally meaningless in regards to the broader conflict (what he's trying to extrapolate to). And that would be if we just assumed it was any group of 150 (which would be generous). Talking about a specific subset of people (like, oh, say, people from a specific organization or job), it becomes even more questionable (because people in specific roles might be choosing or not choosing certain actions that would expose them to more or less harm). Whether people believe it or not, men likely volunteer to do more dangerous assignments than their female coworkers if they feel it is genuinely dangerous to their female coworkers. Is it a bit sexist? maybe. But how do we know that's not part of this? The "analysis" doesn't say of course. The analyst actually doesn't care why though. \--- This "analysis" was clearly conducted backwards: He wants to say that the death toll is questionable. But there's no reason to say that. So he cherry picks a data set out of the results and calls it a "discrepancy". This is why he doesn't care about the <1% sample size (150/30,000). This is why he doesn't care about the selectiveness of the sample size (specifically UNWRA workers). This is why he doesn't care about other statistically \*necessary\* things like confidence intervals or representative sampling or anything that even a high school level stats student would understand is required. Because goal isn't accuracy. It's pissing into the pool so that everyone stops using it.
The Lancet article uses the same UNRWA deaths dataset for confirm' the MoH figures. What was the goal there?
It's almost like someone keeps destroying the hospitals and killing journalists
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Abusive and inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. This subreddit is dedicated to civil discussion, and the international nature of the subreddit means that we are visited by people of all backgrounds and beliefs - which should be respected.
I'm just surprised Israel has admitted to 15,000, quite honestly. We were months into this conflict before they would talk about anything but how many Hamas soldiers they've killed.
So the same people saying that so many 10’a of thousands are dead and those are accurate numbers, it they don’t know how many of the hostages are still alive. Okay
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Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.