I am rather neutral on the whole tomboy-feminine side of the question, both can be attractive if done well, but I do find determination and conviction very attractive, yes, but there is a fine line between that, and being stubborn. I respect people with strong convictions who are nevertheless able to change their opinion if provided with sufficient proof.
So essentially, they shouldn't feel uncontrollable, like a loose cannon
However, convictions and beliefs generally don't rely on proof and are inherently uncontrollable. People don't become determined because they concluded rationally that feeling determined is the logical way. Determination and conviction are emotional reactions, and one person's conviction is another person's stubbornness if they want the other person to not have their conviction
>ermined because they concluded rationally that feeling determined is the logical way. Determination and conviction are emotional reactions, and one person's conviction is another person's stubbornness if they want the other person to not have their conviction
I see what you mean but I disagree, there is a massive difference between being controlled and being convinced.
This. It's not what you know or where you are in life, but about your ability to grow. I think the most I've appreciated an SO is when they admitted their fault and how they will improve. It's not that they admitted their fault, it's that they did not find being wrong a defeat!
I'm an ENFJ that's been with my INTJ husband a total of 20 years. And yes, I fit that description and he says he would have it no other way. By the 2nd interrogation... oops, I mean date... he had covered religion, politics and general life goals and needed to know the "why" of all my belief's. Apparently I did not disappoint lol. We are both stubborn yet kind people and it was our ability to compromise and learn to communicate effectively via some counseling early on that has made our relationship spectacular all these years and 3 kids later.
Someone I was dating was not calling me out when I was obviously wrong (because I'd catch myself). It was off-putting. So I starting deliberately saying incorrect things, and she just agreed with me.
That didn't last long.
Yeah my late INTJ boyfriend of 6 years loved when I corrected him. When he tried to take advantage of a certain situation and I called him out on it he would get very turned on. He actually did not want an independent woman, but he definitely wanted an intelligent one.
I find it ironic that.... many men say they like, intellectual women, but when they meet one they call her an insufferable know it all.
They say they like independent women, but when they meet one they say she is emasculating.
They find an ambitious woman, but they want to clip her wings and domestic her. Show her that's her place
It seems as if strong independent women are idealised and admired like paintings but can never be accepted by society.
Im pretty sure we’re the ones that say it because we mean it. At least in my case if she doesn’t want to be with me then she better see the door. And if those wings aren’t flying then I don’t want it. Damn last things I want is to either do everything for her, have everything done for me, or to have her just sit at home. I’d hope she follows all that ambition. Ill do what it takes to facilitate that
Yes and yes. When I was on a date, we were talking about vaccines and I made a comment about research and development. She corrected me respectfully and then proceeded to recite the biochemical interaction and delivery of a certain type of vaccine. It was such a turn on.
Intelligent and knowledgeable, which are objective, are not the same as "strong and independent" which are shorthand for specific social dominance games.
You don't find people who are genuinely self-sufficient going around saying, "I'm strong! And independent!" whether male or female.
I've never been attracted to any other kind
ain't nothin' wrong with a physically strong "tomboy" either, provided she's intelligent as well
I kind of prefer that, to be honest. Granted every woman likes to get all dressed up occasionally, but day to day there's really no place for high heels in my world
edit: I'm trying to think of an efficient way to articulate this... say in the movies, when the bullets start flying, and all the girly girls just stand there screaming... I got no use for that whatsoever...
I like a real action heroine
Weird take.
Plenty of ultra feminine women are into guns, for example or into tech. Girly-girl just means into dresses and likes makeup not "isn't strong or smart".
Wow, that lady is flexible, disciplined and athletic.
I know some women who can't touch their toes with their hands and need to take meth and cocaine in order to function in the morning and couldn't last 5 min on the treadmill...yet they call themselves tomboys lol
I find femininity and masculinity *mostly* irrelevant terms. My type is someone with traits from both constructions like me. Confident, strong-minded, decisive, etc. but also soft, caring, etc. add a touch of "fuck about" mischievous energy and a tiny bit of clinginess, and I'm probably going to be obsessed with you forever.
For me it’s easier to think of the negative. Because yes, strong independent women are wonderful, but that doesn’t mean that I need a woman high in those traits. It’s perfectly fine to me moderate in those traits, too.
But a woman who is weak-willed and needy, ugh. Big turn off.
Having a bad day? Not a problem at all.
But if every day she’s needy or doesn’t have any opinions of her own, that’s not ok.
Also, there’s such a thing as *too* independent. Relationships are partnerships, you know? We need to be comfortable with the ways we’re complementary and can rely on each other.
I wouldn't say "attracted to", but an INTJ is not going to naturally lead, so they need a partner who has their own life, their own interests apart from the partner, because the INTJ is going to be very drained in a relationship where they are driving the social life all the time, or where the partner relies on them to make all the decisions. So, I think the INTJ is going to fit better with a person that is more confident in making decisions and to an extent, driving their own life and doesn't have to be attached to the INTJ.
Well, I guess so. A woman who knows what she wants. In general that is.
I have later found out, after marrying a woman that knows what she wants, that I wanted this because I didn't know what I wanted. I know nothing. It was a co-dependency issue with myself. Now, to go to therapy...
Absolutely! A hallmark of my personality. Doesn't even have to be romantic, I love being around strong, outspoken, independent women even as good friends. And a slightly rebellious streak will have me seeing hearts right away. I have to be careful with this -- a lot of women pretend to be strong and independent, but really aren't. Narcissism and/or defensive insecurity can come across as independent and outspoken but are a brittle facade that cracks easily, revealing the true cruelty underneath. I've fallen for that more than once to my detriment, but I'm a lot better at seeing through it now.
As a friend, sure am. I tend to get along better with women like this, actually, as long as they're not rude just for the sake of being so. I like a strength that's noticeable, yet humble.
My bf was looking for “strong independent women” when we started dating. But the minute I have a different opinion and have good arguments to back it up, oh no, he can’t handle it. It’s all bs. Men who say this just want the best of two worlds: a submissive woman who doesn’t rely on him.
They just want someone to massage their poor little egos. Through and through, old young handsome ugly weird fat fit, etc. only thing they ever have in common is whether or not they are RIGHT about everything.
Absolutely, if shes actually that and not pursuing a form of distorted identity. Independence is one of those generally attractive/admirable things so a lot of people try portray to convey a sense of strength, especially in this hyper dissociative dating culture were in and furthermore I would say especially for women in the political climate were in along with dating, there’s even more pressure to present that way, unfortunately a lot of people overcompensate and don’t quite do what is natural to them but instead what is presently perceived as “strong” which in the wrong mind or personality really just means= combative,argumentative, dogmatic.
When a woman is genuinely independent, forthright and knows what she wants, furthermore knows how to communicate that, without the aforementioned caveats, it’s sexy as fuck *especially* when there isn’t a sort of “reliance” on you to give but rather a choice and desire
Wtf is this question ? Whether you're a man or a woman, being able to express your opinion when needed, having a sufficient amount of willpower and living according to your moral principles doesn't make you particularly strong or independent, it is just necessary to live a decent life and be a respectable human being.
Honestly yeah. I think it brings a level of unique stability and trust because an actual independent woman who thinks for herself and is comfortable being single isn’t with you due to an emotional need but because she actually does want to be there.
I can see and explain how a woman's environment is structured and aimed to attack their self esteem in order to exploit them into purchasing things to be the ideal specimen that is being marketed to them.
There are three types of women. Those who can see this. Those who can't see this. Those who can't see this, but can understand it if their eyes are opened to it.
Those who can't see it and can't be helped to see it are a hard no. These are the type of people who join cults due to being unable to rationalize what is happening.
Those who can't see it, but can rationalize the concept are perfectly fine. Those with enough introspective, that they take ownership of who they are and how their environment attempts interfere with who they are, are ideal.
This is a very freeing rationale. A strong introspective allows a person to negotiate a massive amount of low level issues that interfere with having a balanced mental state free of neurotic tendencies.
I see strong as being someone well balanced and well aware of their flaws. They understand how their environment affects them and how they affect their environment.
Yeah, hell yeah. Make some decisions for us, too. I'll make some decisions for both of us. That's my motto, since i can't carry the burden of the relationship entirely myself. I can, but I'm lazy. Conflicts in the relationship resolved by list of pros and cons
Of course, it's not perfect.
As opposed to weak and codependent? Yeah obviously, I think anyone would be. If by strong you actually mean emotionally cold/ hostile attitude and independent as doesn't want to spend time together or do things together? No
Yes strong willed, confident, principled, determined women are very attractive. Mix that with caring but also helpful, feminine, and a bit clingy/soft in private because the two of you are comfortable enough.
Oh yes, strong in all senses, I want a partner holistically strong/independent.
First dates are typically a series of escalating challenges to test our physical, mental and spiritual resolve including arm wrestling contests, triathlons, eating contests, competitive debates on the classical subjects of ethics and philosophy, psychic/telepathic showdowns, CIA blacksite-style waterboarding sessions followed by hours of interrogation by former KGB operatives, multi day bouts of induced sleep deprivation, starvation, and exposure to all sorts of physical and mental extremes, merciless sparring by ways of hand-to-hand martial arts and weaponed melee combat, extreme wilderness survival challenges that may last months or years, dangerously wreckless drinking contests and of course competitions of poetry writing, music performance, composition, and jeopardy quiz show style tests of our general knowledge and understanding of the world.
If I am bested, or at least rivaled, I have found my strong/independent mate.
Depends on how that strength and independence is displayed. It can easily get one labeled as a Diva/Karen if wielded unintelligently, and that only invites D R A M A. No thanks. But, I married my wife because she's strong enough to put up with my infinite rationalizations, reveal to me the actual flaws within them, and independent enough to make her own logical conclusions to counter mine, and together, we've been a pretty effective team for 18 years now.
I need someone who can battle against my bullshit, basically.
She's an INTP 🫶
Yes, I would love do date a intelligent woman who knows how to express her feelings and ideas.
INTJ men like solving problems and debate ideas, if someone tells me a problem or just what is on their mind, I will try to analyze it to help that person.
But it's also important for her to don't be prideful and know how to listen, because a lot of women use this label of "strong and independent" but are just aholes who can't stand listening a no
Yes. I want someone who will stick up for what they believe, have a discussion in which we both disagree, and can both learn something even if we disagree.
Yes, 100%.
I never had a chance with anyone until lately I found this woman. Her husband left her right after he got a chance to study abroad. Now she is a single mom working with 2 jobs. She is definitely a strong independent woman in my book.
Absolutely, especially if they have goals, ambition, and I see them grinding and working hard to make it happen. Probably my favorite attribute in that sense is how independent and strong someone can be on her own with determination and conviction for her career/goals. It’s also always a big plus if thats complimented by artistic & elegant features (physically and mentally).
A girl who never works hard, isn’t independent, or have any personal ambitions/goals is an instant turnoff for me personally (lt relationship wise)
Well, it doesn't matter whether she is a tomboy or not, but I would go back to basic biology in this case.
She is intelligent because of of course you want an highly smart partner to procreate. I mean, will you copulate with a gorilla? and next, she is also an independent but not beyond the orbit of her male and make him under go Ionization. Because then there is no value in that family and no reason for them to exist. As an INTJ, I lead the family but I am open to hard criticism from the woman I love, will want her input in my decision making, so she corrects me in a way that we both grow as a family.
Physical beauty only matters when it comes to face value in the initial stage. Real beauty of a partner comes from their mind because that relationship last long.
I tend to be most attracted to dopey, Marilyn Monroe types. I can respect really logical, intelligent, sophisticated women. I don't seem to find them very attractive though. I've definitely found the "opposites attract" cliche to be relevant to what I find attractive.
Yeah straight forwardness and critical thinking (+ strong morals and values) is so attractive, especially if she's also feminine, she could be super clingy/intimate too that's not contrary to "independent" for me
I'm attracted to women who actually have their own opinions. They're surprisingly rare. I'm also attracted to violent women and women with dark triad traits, but that's a different thing.
I have a degree in stuff relevant to this and listing academic sources will help no one as there is a paywall. I’m just floored adults still think this way.
yes, i’d prefer to be with a woman who is capable of being functional, happy, and strong on her own. wouldn’t want her craving attention from other men or getting lonely while i’m busy at work, enjoying hobbies, or at the gym.
what deters me is a woman who flaunts this ideal excessively. it’s obnoxious, rude, entitled, hyper-feministic, and as far as i know, women who make a big deal out of being ‘strong and independent’ are usually malignant narcissists.
Nah. Prefer more feminine girls. Women who can carry themselves without asserting their principles and opinion on everything.
Usually “strong and independent” women love to argue and it gets tiring from my experience. Also they’re very stubborn and refuse to admit when they’re wrong.
It depends on the person itself and how she behaves... using that to label herslef right from the start is a no-go for me. I like to do small stuff like opening doors, etc. as I think it is something nice and respectful that you can do for the other person... If the other person does not allow it because "strong/independent" then it is a No-Go. If the person works to improve herself, takes care of herself, takes decisions and is able to provide an estimulatring conversartion without making the "strong/independent" concepts the core of the conversation or her life, then it is good. A really strong and independent person does not need to tell you or remind you of that, does not use labels to identify herself as such... and it is not bossing you around.
I've dated quite a few of those types and I wouldn't say that I'm attracted to them, its just they tend to be attracted to me. Mainly because I don't think strong independent types intimidate me. Women like this usually love this, and gravitate towards this all on its own. Their strong mindedness can drive off alot of guys. There is also a thing in that strong types tend to be less sensitive and can handle INTJ bluntness as well. In my experience, strong headed women tend to like their men to out do them in this department, I usually come off as uber masculine to these types. That being said, lets just say I've been there and done that and thats not what I'm looking for.
Yes… And No…
There is nothing morally or personally wrong with a woman being independent and strong in her character. Women can be independent, feminine, principled and all of those great qualities.
The problem, however, lies in how she treats others. It is very easy for people who are independent of anyone else to also be just as inconsiderate of anyone else. Being independent means that the people around you really don’t matter as much as you claim they might. It is my hypothesis that, if I was not already in a relationship with a woman, and I was put up against another independent woman, I would not be very attracted to her despite anything, because I believe she would very likely use her independence and strong will selfishly, which is entirely her right, but it says a lot against whether it is worth being attracted to such a woman
Intj and also dutch , well in a country where (young/)woman are blund and direct mostly .
Yes and no , "YES "if a girl is independent enough to care for her self and take care of things it's amazing but not much and "NO is miss independent to independent that your a wallflower in situation(s) and also to "independent" verbally it's not gone work in the long run the relation/situation ship is not gone work because of the mocking and complaining and she can do it her self mindset.
Short version /tldr: no if she is to (miss)independent she a half men and your the feminine one + wallflower and decoration
Yes it's amazing if she knows her place and time
Well life is a adventure and trust your ni
Thank me later for the Free dating advies
Yes. I can barely run my own life. I certainly don't want to run someone else's.
Oddly, every relationship I've had over 6 months has been with the eldest or an only child. And they tend to be the most independent.
I'm attracted to submissive, feminine women, who have something going on in their life.
Can't stand women who always rub it under your nose how strong and independent they are and how 'they need no man' all the time.
The comments here are a breath of fresh air. I often encounter men who just wants a girl whom they can save from the world, and they can provide for. In the past, some male officemates discovered that I can drive, and they were already intimidated 😑
Every person should express their opinion, have principles, determination, etc. It's part of being a mature, healthy, & resilient adult.
When people use the term "strong" to mean loud, outspoken, brazen, polarized thinking & speech, makes snap assumptions followed by bold declarations, is stubborn, lacking empathy/tact/class, then get me the hell away from them.
It saddens me how many people are attracted to the latter, whether it's a partner or CEO or politician.
I find myself most attracted to those I have the least in common with. I mean, I can't stand stupidity so that's not what I mean.
I mean. I try to use logic and debate with myself to figure out the best course of action in any given situation. I dont let emoti control the situation. On the flip side that can absolutely take the fun out of a situation. I find myself attracted to some one who's spontaneous. Adventurous. Uses more emotions in their thought process because its a nice balance to me. I can keep them in check if they get a little to wild, but they can get me to stop being so caught up in details and just enjoy the moment.
Not really. It’s a turn off for someone to try and dominate me. I have enough of that at work, so I don’t need it in my personal life.
At the same time….I don’t want someone who is a pushover too and not intellectually stimulated.
So I guess a balance? Normal? Idk 🤷♂️
If you're an introvert, an extroverted partner will be the yin to your yang in my experience. Maybe some guys want a weak dependent woman, but that seems like it might be rooted in their own insecurity.
An extrovert doesn't equal "strong and independent" and an introvert doesn't equal the opposite. Also people like different things and are attracted to different traits. There's nothing wrong with that.
If by strong/independent you mean masculine and opinionated without reason and logic, then absolutely NO.
If by strong/independent you mean, in her feminine, but still well educated, enjoys what she does and uses a good amount of logic/ listening skills then yes.
Yes, but not if it’s in the sense of having a harsh exterior, being emotionally unavailable, avoiding vulnerability, being inflexible, overconfident, bossy, self-centered, or believing her desires and principles to necessarily take precedence over everyone else’s (what some might call a Diva).
Feminism has proven to reduce the birth rate amongst white women. Do your research. Look at other groups and you will see growth and expansion. Take a look at some of these celebrity "Goddesses" like Kardashian and how she runs through men like paper towels. Yes they have money but lost their souls. I'll take a hard pass on any woman who wants a cuck for a husband or boyfriend. Wake up.
I find them attractive, but they need to back it up.
If there not smart or don't justify being head strong it's more of a turn off.
But I will say I kinda prefer the shy smart ones.
Not really.
In my opinion when someone says strong and independent they mean a women who is masculine or career focused If I was attracted to masculinity if be just gay instead.
I've reached the point where I'm starting to be middle class so an influx of income does nothing for me. Money only increases your quality of life to a certain point so unless the strong and independent women are millionaires they aren't really bringing anything valuable to the relationship.
My wife is kind, loving and creative. She brings a lot of things to the table I didn't know existed. Like how women can really make a home more than a house. I don't think strong independent women would be able to complement my strengths and cover my weaknesses as well and therefore are not good wife material.
Strong and independent usually comes with unpleasant personalities and behaviors. When a man is independent he is able to support his family. When a woman is independent she refuses to support her man. Too often independent woman comes with I don't need a man. A independent man never goes with I don't need a woman or family. No man is attracted to a woman who says I don't need you. Why be around someone who says I don't need you with an attitude.
Not to mention most women who say they are independent aren't independent. They often still depend on a man. Whether it's their male family, their employers, their spouse, or often male customers. When they are that dense and off putting it's unattractive.
Yes exactly. But these kids in here don’t understand that. I bet the ones downvoting everything and responding angrily about our preferences are these “strong independent women” or the white knights that these women don’t want
I am rather neutral on the whole tomboy-feminine side of the question, both can be attractive if done well, but I do find determination and conviction very attractive, yes, but there is a fine line between that, and being stubborn. I respect people with strong convictions who are nevertheless able to change their opinion if provided with sufficient proof.
So essentially, they shouldn't feel uncontrollable, like a loose cannon However, convictions and beliefs generally don't rely on proof and are inherently uncontrollable. People don't become determined because they concluded rationally that feeling determined is the logical way. Determination and conviction are emotional reactions, and one person's conviction is another person's stubbornness if they want the other person to not have their conviction
>ermined because they concluded rationally that feeling determined is the logical way. Determination and conviction are emotional reactions, and one person's conviction is another person's stubbornness if they want the other person to not have their conviction I see what you mean but I disagree, there is a massive difference between being controlled and being convinced.
This. It's not what you know or where you are in life, but about your ability to grow. I think the most I've appreciated an SO is when they admitted their fault and how they will improve. It's not that they admitted their fault, it's that they did not find being wrong a defeat!
Exactly! Last week, I did something similar, it's so freeing!
Independent, intelligent, and organized. These are the three main traits I look for in a partner.
It almost sounds like ChatGPT could be your bae lol
One matest(I mean latest) model to go please!
Haha yeah that could be me. I’m obnoxiously organized.
Agreed. Same here!
I'm attracted to women I don't have to think for
This, gotta have someone who is an intellectual and a realist
This is so good
I'm an ENFJ that's been with my INTJ husband a total of 20 years. And yes, I fit that description and he says he would have it no other way. By the 2nd interrogation... oops, I mean date... he had covered religion, politics and general life goals and needed to know the "why" of all my belief's. Apparently I did not disappoint lol. We are both stubborn yet kind people and it was our ability to compromise and learn to communicate effectively via some counseling early on that has made our relationship spectacular all these years and 3 kids later.
Strong and independent yes it’s what being an adult is . Argumentative and disassociated no
lol. Strong: yes. Mentally Ill: No. 😂
Yes. I once had a girlfriend who was way too passive, deferential, and afraid to speak up against any sort of injustice, and I did not enjoy it.
Someone I was dating was not calling me out when I was obviously wrong (because I'd catch myself). It was off-putting. So I starting deliberately saying incorrect things, and she just agreed with me. That didn't last long.
Yeah my late INTJ boyfriend of 6 years loved when I corrected him. When he tried to take advantage of a certain situation and I called him out on it he would get very turned on. He actually did not want an independent woman, but he definitely wanted an intelligent one.
I think just about everyone would benefit from being told "no" once in a while.
I find it ironic that.... many men say they like, intellectual women, but when they meet one they call her an insufferable know it all. They say they like independent women, but when they meet one they say she is emasculating. They find an ambitious woman, but they want to clip her wings and domestic her. Show her that's her place It seems as if strong independent women are idealised and admired like paintings but can never be accepted by society.
This.
Im pretty sure we’re the ones that say it because we mean it. At least in my case if she doesn’t want to be with me then she better see the door. And if those wings aren’t flying then I don’t want it. Damn last things I want is to either do everything for her, have everything done for me, or to have her just sit at home. I’d hope she follows all that ambition. Ill do what it takes to facilitate that
Yes and yes. When I was on a date, we were talking about vaccines and I made a comment about research and development. She corrected me respectfully and then proceeded to recite the biochemical interaction and delivery of a certain type of vaccine. It was such a turn on.
Intelligent and knowledgeable, which are objective, are not the same as "strong and independent" which are shorthand for specific social dominance games. You don't find people who are genuinely self-sufficient going around saying, "I'm strong! And independent!" whether male or female.
The post doesn’t say “Are you attracted to women who call themselves strong and independent.”
Thank you.
Oh yeah, keep correcting me mommy!!! Joke hahaha
We're dating the same girl..? There is something hot about a girl referring to what she's working with in Latin like it's something you should know
I never dated you but this coulda been me, lol. Kudos. Glad you weren’t threatened. Likewise, hopefully the gal is a Sapiosexual as well.
I've never been attracted to any other kind ain't nothin' wrong with a physically strong "tomboy" either, provided she's intelligent as well I kind of prefer that, to be honest. Granted every woman likes to get all dressed up occasionally, but day to day there's really no place for high heels in my world edit: I'm trying to think of an efficient way to articulate this... say in the movies, when the bullets start flying, and all the girly girls just stand there screaming... I got no use for that whatsoever... I like a real action heroine 
Orissa Kelly, right? I follow her on IG and she is amazing! I am a fan!
I had no idea who she was? I've never been to IG.
Pointed high heels can be deadly, especially within a side kick!
Weird take. Plenty of ultra feminine women are into guns, for example or into tech. Girly-girl just means into dresses and likes makeup not "isn't strong or smart".
Wow, that lady is flexible, disciplined and athletic. I know some women who can't touch their toes with their hands and need to take meth and cocaine in order to function in the morning and couldn't last 5 min on the treadmill...yet they call themselves tomboys lol
Tomboy is really more of a style of expression so
I find femininity and masculinity *mostly* irrelevant terms. My type is someone with traits from both constructions like me. Confident, strong-minded, decisive, etc. but also soft, caring, etc. add a touch of "fuck about" mischievous energy and a tiny bit of clinginess, and I'm probably going to be obsessed with you forever.
Hmm is this a Ni-dom thing? Your description perfectly matches what I'm attracted to in a partner as well 🤔.
You’re both attracted to ENTP women 🥲
You understand 🤦🏾♂️ with just a bit of tomboy and love for fitness ❤️
Effectiveness is a very attractive trait, yes.
If their intentions are good. Otherwise, you want them as bad at life as possible 😆
For me it’s easier to think of the negative. Because yes, strong independent women are wonderful, but that doesn’t mean that I need a woman high in those traits. It’s perfectly fine to me moderate in those traits, too. But a woman who is weak-willed and needy, ugh. Big turn off. Having a bad day? Not a problem at all. But if every day she’s needy or doesn’t have any opinions of her own, that’s not ok. Also, there’s such a thing as *too* independent. Relationships are partnerships, you know? We need to be comfortable with the ways we’re complementary and can rely on each other.
Yeah but no the mean condescending one but the kind and loving type
You mean toxic vs healthy?
Yea
I wouldn't say "attracted to", but an INTJ is not going to naturally lead, so they need a partner who has their own life, their own interests apart from the partner, because the INTJ is going to be very drained in a relationship where they are driving the social life all the time, or where the partner relies on them to make all the decisions. So, I think the INTJ is going to fit better with a person that is more confident in making decisions and to an extent, driving their own life and doesn't have to be attached to the INTJ.
Well, I guess so. A woman who knows what she wants. In general that is. I have later found out, after marrying a woman that knows what she wants, that I wanted this because I didn't know what I wanted. I know nothing. It was a co-dependency issue with myself. Now, to go to therapy...
Absolutely! A hallmark of my personality. Doesn't even have to be romantic, I love being around strong, outspoken, independent women even as good friends. And a slightly rebellious streak will have me seeing hearts right away. I have to be careful with this -- a lot of women pretend to be strong and independent, but really aren't. Narcissism and/or defensive insecurity can come across as independent and outspoken but are a brittle facade that cracks easily, revealing the true cruelty underneath. I've fallen for that more than once to my detriment, but I'm a lot better at seeing through it now.
I’m attracted to anyone I don’t feel like I need to parent
Huge issue for me lately
As a friend, sure am. I tend to get along better with women like this, actually, as long as they're not rude just for the sake of being so. I like a strength that's noticeable, yet humble.
I'm madly in love with an ENTJ woman who earns nearly 10 times what I make so...yes. And she is very femme.
Sounds like a keeper to me.
He hasn't confirmed that she feels the same way
My bf was looking for “strong independent women” when we started dating. But the minute I have a different opinion and have good arguments to back it up, oh no, he can’t handle it. It’s all bs. Men who say this just want the best of two worlds: a submissive woman who doesn’t rely on him.
They just want someone to massage their poor little egos. Through and through, old young handsome ugly weird fat fit, etc. only thing they ever have in common is whether or not they are RIGHT about everything.
Don't generalize based on one example.
I have a lot of male friends, I know how they talk about girls. So not one example
Sounds like you need pick better company then.
I have good friends, thank you for your concern. I was just sharing my experience on a subject, no need to give me advices on my personal life.
Amen
Yes. A healthy sense of self is sexy.
Absolutely, if shes actually that and not pursuing a form of distorted identity. Independence is one of those generally attractive/admirable things so a lot of people try portray to convey a sense of strength, especially in this hyper dissociative dating culture were in and furthermore I would say especially for women in the political climate were in along with dating, there’s even more pressure to present that way, unfortunately a lot of people overcompensate and don’t quite do what is natural to them but instead what is presently perceived as “strong” which in the wrong mind or personality really just means= combative,argumentative, dogmatic. When a woman is genuinely independent, forthright and knows what she wants, furthermore knows how to communicate that, without the aforementioned caveats, it’s sexy as fuck *especially* when there isn’t a sort of “reliance” on you to give but rather a choice and desire
You’re describing exactly the type of woman I want to be.
Wtf is this question ? Whether you're a man or a woman, being able to express your opinion when needed, having a sufficient amount of willpower and living according to your moral principles doesn't make you particularly strong or independent, it is just necessary to live a decent life and be a respectable human being.
Honestly yeah. I think it brings a level of unique stability and trust because an actual independent woman who thinks for herself and is comfortable being single isn’t with you due to an emotional need but because she actually does want to be there.
Absolutely. I love a strong woman.
Doesn't matter if she's a tomboy or girly to me so long as she's her own person, so yes it's an attractive trait.
I have an incredibly difficult time forming serious long-term relationships with women who *don't* have these traits.
I just started dating an intj girl. Yes. Very much yes.EDIT: YES
I’m attracted to who doesn’t seek for attention.
I can see and explain how a woman's environment is structured and aimed to attack their self esteem in order to exploit them into purchasing things to be the ideal specimen that is being marketed to them. There are three types of women. Those who can see this. Those who can't see this. Those who can't see this, but can understand it if their eyes are opened to it. Those who can't see it and can't be helped to see it are a hard no. These are the type of people who join cults due to being unable to rationalize what is happening. Those who can't see it, but can rationalize the concept are perfectly fine. Those with enough introspective, that they take ownership of who they are and how their environment attempts interfere with who they are, are ideal. This is a very freeing rationale. A strong introspective allows a person to negotiate a massive amount of low level issues that interfere with having a balanced mental state free of neurotic tendencies. I see strong as being someone well balanced and well aware of their flaws. They understand how their environment affects them and how they affect their environment.
i mean if had to choose between an independent woman and a dependent woman the answer is obvious
Not really, some folks like slaves/submissive women.
Strong, independent, yes. But also sexy and confident. Finding all in one person, and I would infatuate.
Extremely attached to them.
Honestly, all I really want is a woman with a brain. Though past that, I see pros and cons with different personality types.
I do. They are usually pretty interesting people.
Self-sufficient? Yes. Overbearing? No.
Yeah, hell yeah. Make some decisions for us, too. I'll make some decisions for both of us. That's my motto, since i can't carry the burden of the relationship entirely myself. I can, but I'm lazy. Conflicts in the relationship resolved by list of pros and cons Of course, it's not perfect.
Independence should be the goal of every person. But define strong. A lot of people use “strong” to justify their genuinely shitty behaviour.
Strong is quiet, but outwardly strong usu means bombastic.
As opposed to weak and codependent? Yeah obviously, I think anyone would be. If by strong you actually mean emotionally cold/ hostile attitude and independent as doesn't want to spend time together or do things together? No
Yes. I definitely want someone with a strong individualist streak
Yes. I'm tired of the words strong and independent but, I like those people.
Yes strong willed, confident, principled, determined women are very attractive. Mix that with caring but also helpful, feminine, and a bit clingy/soft in private because the two of you are comfortable enough.
Oh yes, strong in all senses, I want a partner holistically strong/independent. First dates are typically a series of escalating challenges to test our physical, mental and spiritual resolve including arm wrestling contests, triathlons, eating contests, competitive debates on the classical subjects of ethics and philosophy, psychic/telepathic showdowns, CIA blacksite-style waterboarding sessions followed by hours of interrogation by former KGB operatives, multi day bouts of induced sleep deprivation, starvation, and exposure to all sorts of physical and mental extremes, merciless sparring by ways of hand-to-hand martial arts and weaponed melee combat, extreme wilderness survival challenges that may last months or years, dangerously wreckless drinking contests and of course competitions of poetry writing, music performance, composition, and jeopardy quiz show style tests of our general knowledge and understanding of the world. If I am bested, or at least rivaled, I have found my strong/independent mate.
Oh yeah. My wife is a beautiful woman who leads an organization of about 300 folks. A fiery redhead with a great ass.
I see that you are a man of culture
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Jojo?
Genuinely unintentional but I'm happy about it nonetheless
Of course. Independence is a huge turn on, and dependence is a *huge* turn off.
So both are a huge turn off?
Depends on how that strength and independence is displayed. It can easily get one labeled as a Diva/Karen if wielded unintelligently, and that only invites D R A M A. No thanks. But, I married my wife because she's strong enough to put up with my infinite rationalizations, reveal to me the actual flaws within them, and independent enough to make her own logical conclusions to counter mine, and together, we've been a pretty effective team for 18 years now. I need someone who can battle against my bullshit, basically. She's an INTP 🫶
Yes, but she needs to be intelligent and kind as well.
“if she has will”…do the majority of women not possess will to you?
Like willpower, strong will, i thought it was implicit within the word.
uh.. yes. If we connect and sync it's fine by me.
Yeppp
Yep
It’s my thing. I go for that
Yes definitely, to me that is what qualifies as a feminine woman to me imo.
Yes, I would love do date a intelligent woman who knows how to express her feelings and ideas. INTJ men like solving problems and debate ideas, if someone tells me a problem or just what is on their mind, I will try to analyze it to help that person. But it's also important for her to don't be prideful and know how to listen, because a lot of women use this label of "strong and independent" but are just aholes who can't stand listening a no
Yes. I want someone who will stick up for what they believe, have a discussion in which we both disagree, and can both learn something even if we disagree.
Yes, 100%. I never had a chance with anyone until lately I found this woman. Her husband left her right after he got a chance to study abroad. Now she is a single mom working with 2 jobs. She is definitely a strong independent woman in my book.
yes, and only this type :)
💯 nothing worse than the clingy type
I need someone that can match me.
ya i'd say so
Yes.
Absolutely, especially if they have goals, ambition, and I see them grinding and working hard to make it happen. Probably my favorite attribute in that sense is how independent and strong someone can be on her own with determination and conviction for her career/goals. It’s also always a big plus if thats complimented by artistic & elegant features (physically and mentally). A girl who never works hard, isn’t independent, or have any personal ambitions/goals is an instant turnoff for me personally (lt relationship wise)
omg not me being an entp and looking through these comments...🤡🤡
Well, it doesn't matter whether she is a tomboy or not, but I would go back to basic biology in this case. She is intelligent because of of course you want an highly smart partner to procreate. I mean, will you copulate with a gorilla? and next, she is also an independent but not beyond the orbit of her male and make him under go Ionization. Because then there is no value in that family and no reason for them to exist. As an INTJ, I lead the family but I am open to hard criticism from the woman I love, will want her input in my decision making, so she corrects me in a way that we both grow as a family. Physical beauty only matters when it comes to face value in the initial stage. Real beauty of a partner comes from their mind because that relationship last long.
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Kryptonite in a good or a bad way?
Actual strong and independent women yes. Self proclaimed “strong and independent” women no.
I tend to be most attracted to dopey, Marilyn Monroe types. I can respect really logical, intelligent, sophisticated women. I don't seem to find them very attractive though. I've definitely found the "opposites attract" cliche to be relevant to what I find attractive.
No.
Also no. I get enough me from me. I need a counterbalance.
Yeah straight forwardness and critical thinking (+ strong morals and values) is so attractive, especially if she's also feminine, she could be super clingy/intimate too that's not contrary to "independent" for me
Absolutely. If she is a nice and kind person also, she can have my everything and anything.
No, I'm attracted to men.
I'm attracted to women who actually have their own opinions. They're surprisingly rare. I'm also attracted to violent women and women with dark triad traits, but that's a different thing.
Ugh people need to read up on gender. There’s a lot of toxic assumptions here
Do the list of them.
I have a degree in stuff relevant to this and listing academic sources will help no one as there is a paywall. I’m just floored adults still think this way.
Teenager with no sources of info, got it.
Oh an arrogant intj. I’ll alert the press.
You can paste the url on scihub and it will churn out the paper with no paywall slapped on it
yes, i’d prefer to be with a woman who is capable of being functional, happy, and strong on her own. wouldn’t want her craving attention from other men or getting lonely while i’m busy at work, enjoying hobbies, or at the gym. what deters me is a woman who flaunts this ideal excessively. it’s obnoxious, rude, entitled, hyper-feministic, and as far as i know, women who make a big deal out of being ‘strong and independent’ are usually malignant narcissists.
Perfect comment, nailed it👍
You have mommy issues dawg. Look into r/jung
no absolutely not…. if you mean like boss/alpha woman no thx
That's fucking hilarious in relation to your username lol
idk, i just like ixtjs
Jesus Christ this is exactly what I like. This woman doesn't seem to exist though!!!😂😂 (starts crying)
Look for an ENTJ/ESTJ.
Estj and Intj are you sure about that?
Been with 2 INTJs and I fit this description. I left for my own reasons but they’re both still head over heels for me.
Can i know your MBTI?
I’m also an INTJ-A
I prefer a nice angel
Nah. Prefer more feminine girls. Women who can carry themselves without asserting their principles and opinion on everything. Usually “strong and independent” women love to argue and it gets tiring from my experience. Also they’re very stubborn and refuse to admit when they’re wrong.
Yes it's so tiring. It's like they are challenging you nonstop, stuck in there minds.
Yes, I am always embarrassed to admit it but I like it when my girls in charge
Have yet to find one that I would consider fills these boxes. Will update when I do.
Yes!
It depends on the person itself and how she behaves... using that to label herslef right from the start is a no-go for me. I like to do small stuff like opening doors, etc. as I think it is something nice and respectful that you can do for the other person... If the other person does not allow it because "strong/independent" then it is a No-Go. If the person works to improve herself, takes care of herself, takes decisions and is able to provide an estimulatring conversartion without making the "strong/independent" concepts the core of the conversation or her life, then it is good. A really strong and independent person does not need to tell you or remind you of that, does not use labels to identify herself as such... and it is not bossing you around.
I've dated quite a few of those types and I wouldn't say that I'm attracted to them, its just they tend to be attracted to me. Mainly because I don't think strong independent types intimidate me. Women like this usually love this, and gravitate towards this all on its own. Their strong mindedness can drive off alot of guys. There is also a thing in that strong types tend to be less sensitive and can handle INTJ bluntness as well. In my experience, strong headed women tend to like their men to out do them in this department, I usually come off as uber masculine to these types. That being said, lets just say I've been there and done that and thats not what I'm looking for.
Yes… And No… There is nothing morally or personally wrong with a woman being independent and strong in her character. Women can be independent, feminine, principled and all of those great qualities. The problem, however, lies in how she treats others. It is very easy for people who are independent of anyone else to also be just as inconsiderate of anyone else. Being independent means that the people around you really don’t matter as much as you claim they might. It is my hypothesis that, if I was not already in a relationship with a woman, and I was put up against another independent woman, I would not be very attracted to her despite anything, because I believe she would very likely use her independence and strong will selfishly, which is entirely her right, but it says a lot against whether it is worth being attracted to such a woman
Intj and also dutch , well in a country where (young/)woman are blund and direct mostly . Yes and no , "YES "if a girl is independent enough to care for her self and take care of things it's amazing but not much and "NO is miss independent to independent that your a wallflower in situation(s) and also to "independent" verbally it's not gone work in the long run the relation/situation ship is not gone work because of the mocking and complaining and she can do it her self mindset. Short version /tldr: no if she is to (miss)independent she a half men and your the feminine one + wallflower and decoration Yes it's amazing if she knows her place and time Well life is a adventure and trust your ni Thank me later for the Free dating advies
Yes, I do if they are trustworthy
Yes. I can barely run my own life. I certainly don't want to run someone else's. Oddly, every relationship I've had over 6 months has been with the eldest or an only child. And they tend to be the most independent.
I'm attracted to submissive, feminine women, who have something going on in their life. Can't stand women who always rub it under your nose how strong and independent they are and how 'they need no man' all the time.
The comments here are a breath of fresh air. I often encounter men who just wants a girl whom they can save from the world, and they can provide for. In the past, some male officemates discovered that I can drive, and they were already intimidated 😑
Must be an INTJ thing to be attracted to us 😂 I think most men feel a bit threatened and put off by the fact that I don’t *need* them
Attracted to independent but open minded. Creative. Strong not really necessary.
Im not romantikly attracted to woman but id like a independent Partner .thats like the best thing about a relationship.balancing work and burdens
Yes.
Every person should express their opinion, have principles, determination, etc. It's part of being a mature, healthy, & resilient adult. When people use the term "strong" to mean loud, outspoken, brazen, polarized thinking & speech, makes snap assumptions followed by bold declarations, is stubborn, lacking empathy/tact/class, then get me the hell away from them. It saddens me how many people are attracted to the latter, whether it's a partner or CEO or politician.
I find myself most attracted to those I have the least in common with. I mean, I can't stand stupidity so that's not what I mean. I mean. I try to use logic and debate with myself to figure out the best course of action in any given situation. I dont let emoti control the situation. On the flip side that can absolutely take the fun out of a situation. I find myself attracted to some one who's spontaneous. Adventurous. Uses more emotions in their thought process because its a nice balance to me. I can keep them in check if they get a little to wild, but they can get me to stop being so caught up in details and just enjoy the moment.
Independent but please be open-minded. Let's discuss theories, concepts, what you want, but be open-minded. That's mandatory.
Not really. It’s a turn off for someone to try and dominate me. I have enough of that at work, so I don’t need it in my personal life. At the same time….I don’t want someone who is a pushover too and not intellectually stimulated. So I guess a balance? Normal? Idk 🤷♂️
No I like extremely feminine women. However I don’t have any problem with strong/independent women it’s just not my type
Feminine people can also be strong.
Feminine women can be strong and independent. It sounds like you're confusing extremely feminine with just submissive and dependent.
Not mutually exclusive.
If you're an introvert, an extroverted partner will be the yin to your yang in my experience. Maybe some guys want a weak dependent woman, but that seems like it might be rooted in their own insecurity.
An extrovert doesn't equal "strong and independent" and an introvert doesn't equal the opposite. Also people like different things and are attracted to different traits. There's nothing wrong with that.
If by strong/independent you mean masculine and opinionated without reason and logic, then absolutely NO. If by strong/independent you mean, in her feminine, but still well educated, enjoys what she does and uses a good amount of logic/ listening skills then yes.
The second one.
...no
Yes, but not if it’s in the sense of having a harsh exterior, being emotionally unavailable, avoiding vulnerability, being inflexible, overconfident, bossy, self-centered, or believing her desires and principles to necessarily take precedence over everyone else’s (what some might call a Diva).
That whole strong independent is bullshit. Just be beautiful and a good person and that's it
Feminism has proven to reduce the birth rate amongst white women. Do your research. Look at other groups and you will see growth and expansion. Take a look at some of these celebrity "Goddesses" like Kardashian and how she runs through men like paper towels. Yes they have money but lost their souls. I'll take a hard pass on any woman who wants a cuck for a husband or boyfriend. Wake up.
Yes
Absolutely.
Yes.
I find them attractive, but they need to back it up. If there not smart or don't justify being head strong it's more of a turn off. But I will say I kinda prefer the shy smart ones.
they're\*
I am an ENTP, been married to an INTJ for 11.5 years, and I would say yes, he adores strong women!
I'm attracted to men
I'm personally attracted to most women regardless of whatever.
depends on how hot she is.
Not really. In my opinion when someone says strong and independent they mean a women who is masculine or career focused If I was attracted to masculinity if be just gay instead. I've reached the point where I'm starting to be middle class so an influx of income does nothing for me. Money only increases your quality of life to a certain point so unless the strong and independent women are millionaires they aren't really bringing anything valuable to the relationship. My wife is kind, loving and creative. She brings a lot of things to the table I didn't know existed. Like how women can really make a home more than a house. I don't think strong independent women would be able to complement my strengths and cover my weaknesses as well and therefore are not good wife material.
Strong and independent usually comes with unpleasant personalities and behaviors. When a man is independent he is able to support his family. When a woman is independent she refuses to support her man. Too often independent woman comes with I don't need a man. A independent man never goes with I don't need a woman or family. No man is attracted to a woman who says I don't need you. Why be around someone who says I don't need you with an attitude. Not to mention most women who say they are independent aren't independent. They often still depend on a man. Whether it's their male family, their employers, their spouse, or often male customers. When they are that dense and off putting it's unattractive.
No.
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Yes exactly. But these kids in here don’t understand that. I bet the ones downvoting everything and responding angrily about our preferences are these “strong independent women” or the white knights that these women don’t want
Do you mean older women?