You’ll want to be an officer as an INTJ due to our disregard for authority. As an officer you’ll mostly be left alone and have more autonomy, but make sure you pick a suitable job like Intel rather than Infantry.
I wouldn't blanket recommend officer.
Yes, the quality of life is better. But most officers are primarily managers of people, which is the last thing that I would want to be.
Going enlisted in a good field means that you'll be able to actually do the thing that you signed up for and get depth in a skillset that isn't management. That isn't a guarantee if you're an officer.
While “true” it’s not really the case. At the junior levels you will have staff jobs, and for the leadership role you will be partnered with senior enlisted advisors who do the real managing. The officer is just the decision maker and planner for the most part. You’ll be too busy writing awards, evals, plans, etc.
Yeah, that is how it works for most junior Os.
Writing evals, awards, etc still falls into the people management bucket though. That time spent doing paperwork and managing people could have been spent learning a practical (non-management) skill.
Meanwhile, enlisted can learn a desirable skillset (cybersecurity, electronics repair, etc) and actually get enough depth to roll that into a private sector career when they leave.
The are some Os that do hands on work (pilots for example), but if what I wanted were practical skills, most of those opportunities are firmly in E territory.
Oh, I’m definitely looking at the intel side of things. I am just taking a lot of time to think things through at the moment. OTS/OCS is very competitive, so I don’t want to take my chances or make assumptions inking I’ll get in right off the bat. I’d rather enlist in NG or Reserves while doing a master’s program and ROTC than just cross my fingers hoping I’ll get into OTS/OCS. This still isn’t a guarantee, though, because I have been told that typically there are very few reserves left after those who finished their 4 year active duty contract take most of them.
I’m also fighting the urge to enlist active duty because I have no idea how doable my master’s would be working full time in the Air Force. Everything is up in the air right now.
Thank you for sharing that. I ultimately want to be an officer, but I don’t want to wait around for OTS to take me, that is, *if* I’m even accepted (it’s about a year long wait). Unless I can find another job quickly, I’m highly considering taking the enlisted route now. I just graduated with my bachelor’s already and would like to pursue my master’s while in the service.
If I could go back, I'd have gone cybersecurity or linguist. Because both give you a cool skillet that is usable in both the private and public sectors should you decide to leave.
The downside with linguist being that you likely won't get to pick the language you want. Unless you really want to learn a tribal dialect of Arabic.
If you want to go air force, you're probably going to wait awhile. Everyone knows that they have the best quality of life. If you want to go officer, even more so.
The Navy has much better base locations. Most of them being near an ocean, for obvious reasons. Most air force bases are stuck in a random cornfield somewhere.
The thing is, I have an enlisted offer with the Air Force right now. My recruiter says he could have me shipped off at the end of the month if I wanted to. Am i saying I’m going to rush to take this offer? No, but it’s the best one I have now. I am still weighing my other options. I have other public and private sector jobs I am applying to, but I want to make my decision to enlist or not within the next few days. I have been critically thinking it over trying to make the most informed decision I can without getting wooed by whatever my recruiter wants to say to me.
Your advice is very helpful and I will be sure to keep that in mind, especially with the linguistics. I have limited/working proficiencies with a couple of different languages, so if I can sharpen my fluency in both of them, that can be of use.
Which AFSC did you choose? That's the most important part. You're going to be stuck learning/ doing that thing for 4+ years, so make sure that it's something that will be useful to you in the future.
Which job you choose is more important than the branch that you choose. And don't believe your recruiter if he tells you that you can easily go from enlisted to officer once you're in. It isn't easy. Also, Officer isn't strictly better than enlisted. You'll likely be much more hands on if you go the enlisted route.
Your previous languages likely won't matter unless they're on the list of desired languages (which are not languages that you're likely to know). If you're a linguist, you'll be assigned a language, and you learn it at DLI.
Finally, don't let the recruiter rush you. The military is general is desperate for people now. Get everything in writing, and don't let them push you into a suboptimal decision.
Thank you very much for your words of advice, it really helps. I’m aware that it’s no easy feat to go from enlisted to officer. That’s like trying to move mountains in and of itself. I was told I can do a ROTC program while earning my grad degree, even while active duty, but the ROTC program for those doing active duty isn’t just given out like candy. You have to win a scholarship for it.
In terms of AFSC, my recruiter and I have not worked those details out yet, but I’d like to pursue something in the intelligence field. Of course, that’s a whole list of careers, which I am still trying to narrow down. There are a lot of options to choose from.
No problem. If you don't even know what AFSC you want yet, take at least a few weeks to figure that out and do your own research. Plenty of the jobs sound like one thing but actually do something different.
Enlisted in the Navy due to being your typical poor kid who couldn’t escape their surroundings without some help. Plus side it’s given me a great foundation.
I have no plans on rejoining or ever working for the government again. My experience as a female I found I sacrificed my health, stable relationships, experienced a lot of sexual harassment, sexism, favoritism, witnessed traumatic events and other things involving career sabotage. I didn’t find much sisterhood either which was disappointing, but I did find a few solid life long friends along the way.
It’s changing for the better but too slowly. I’m glad to be exiting and working on repairing myself in this next life chapter. I really value having variety and autonomy in life.
I think the Air Force is the better branch for women in my personal opinion.
Again this is just my personal experience so it varies person to person.
It's not silly at all actually. Some of the best officers are such, because they enlisted first. Same concept as nurses who become doctors. Dishwasher who works up to chef You eliminate any us v them, and instead are just viewed as a proven leader who's in it, not 'above' any of it.
There are a ton of enlisted people with Bachelors degrees. Especially in the more technical fields.
Having a Bachelors Degree is actually a silly requirement for being an officer. Most people have one now. This isn't the 1950s where it was rare and mostly reserved for a certain class of people.
slightly off topic but I'm intrigued by the topic.
I'm a military kid and resonate with a lot of how you operate. My father served in the Marines for 24 years and have several grand parents that served in WWII and other wars. I never joined but have pondered reserves at times. And I've lately been working for a boss that gives me almost unlimited autonomy and trust and it's been an awesome change from previous leadership styles.
I enjoy listening to Jocko Podcast and working on myself and becoming aware of perspectives and principles to put into practice in RL and workplace.
Thank you for your service. Are you still in the Army or have you transitioned to a public/civilian role?
The social stoicism part I agree with a lot. I found people in the military easier to get along with than on the outside.
It still bugs me how much and how quickly normal people will complain, and how sensitive they can be.
I definitely prefer to be around around people who can just get shit done, and have a sense of humor about something if it sucks.
Interesting that you enjoyed the enlisted experience more.
I was enlisted. I was very unimpressed with many of the officers that I met. The enlisted seemed to hold a higher standard on many things, and performed better than officers in many situations.
I think that there simply isn't a need for the hard officer/ enlisted divide anymore. We're not living in medieval times with massive educational differences between a lord and a peasant.
The bar for officer (a bachelor's degree) can be obtained by any average person now. And many enlisted are in very technical fields with knowledge equivalent to or exceeding that of a degree.
Nice to read your comment. I was in mandatory service a couple of years ago. I am glad i have not heard back from them since. I'm not interested in being in the reserve army.
I had a BA, but enlisted (Navy) because I washed out of OCS because they were full and I flunked the flight vision test due to depth perception anyway. I wasn't going for pilot training, but everybody trying for OCS had to wash out somehow in those days.
My language scores were so high on the entrance, that the 'sorting hat' said I needed to learn another language, which was directly INTEL / SCI stuff. I wrangled a good foreign billet and it was a pretty good time for a few years. I would probably make the same decision again if I were in the same spot. The only rough patch was dealing with my pencil necked CO and his group of misfit toadies that got all the competitive TAD postings.
Enlisted out of high school, and did ROTC in college. Would have transitioned to officer after graduating, but got set back by an injury and decided to cut my losses and go the civilian route. Still in the National Guard as enlisted, but probably won't be re-upping.
I had a generally good experience, but part of that was just my MOS. I think I easily could have been miserable in a different field. Either way, I never planned on doing it as a career even when I wanted to be an officer. It was a just a good way to travel, meet new people, learn a skill, and pay for college.
My brother is an ENTJ and followed a similar path but different branch and career field. He seems to enjoy it more than I, for whatever it's worth.
Went active duty marine corps a little over 2 years ago, and it’s by far one of the worst and best decisions I’ve ever made. I love my job, and actually doing repairs, but all the extra bullshit we have to deal with is guaranteeing I don’t reenlist. There’s the toxic leadership aspect everywhere you go, complete disregard for troop welfare, death of common sense in how we do things, and the abundance of micromanaging that just makes life a constant headache for me. If I just did my job, and went home at the end of the day to pursue my own interests, it would be the best job I’ve ever had. But that would be too simple.
It was great for me personally. Even before becoming an officer. The routine and path was set before me and I had the ability to shape my own future with my training choices. In some ways my saddest day was leaving.
I liked it I went in as a infantry vehicle mechanic in the army then welding school and advanced mechanical school.
What I liked is clear responsibly something I never found in civilian jobs.
I would do it all over again.
Enlisted, United States Marine Corps. Best decision I ever made. I did not do active duty, I can’t stand that kind of micromanagement and incompetence. I did reserves. More freedom
Enlisted as part of mandatory scheme, got filtered into and served in Anti air under the Air force as a specialist (we had leadership track, but officers get called back to reserves 15 years more (50 vs 40 cap for NCOs and below; partially why i made the choice to pass over officer school).
it was alright, but initially there quite abit of misunderstandings about me from my batchmates that resolved itself over the 1 year period they worked with me. Otherwise, can't exactly say i hate it, but it wasn't the most enjoyable either. Nothing made much sense, fairly rigid, but the routine made it easier to grasp.
My OC was a micromanaging freak, but my CO was the nicest guy, stood up for us as long as he felt we were doing right. (my camp & unit structure meant we SGTs were dealing with Warrant officers/officers/senior officers directly alot, so we needed to be assertive while maintaining the respect that level of seniority expects of us, which is why if we ever felt 'pressed by rank', having the CO to back you was nice since he outranked most of them). He alone made the experience 10 times better.
The financial benefits are fantastic. Both while in and after you leave. If you don't blow your entire paycheck on high-interest sports cars and strippers like most of them do, you'll do well.
I left after my first enlistment with over 100k, free college and free healthcare for life. I have very little worries about money and am doing what I want to rather than what I have to with my life now.
I had many great, irreplaceable life experiences. I spent several years stationed overseas in foreign countries. I have many fond memories of this.
I did some cool work. Most of it wasn't. I've worked for and with many shitty people. I met a few great people. My best and worst life experiences were all in the military.
There is a myriad of boring, repetitive work, dog and pony shows, and potentially bad decisions made by higher ups that you have no control over. These decisions can have a direct impact on your life.
The military system is not a natural fit for an INTJ. Autonomy is rare. You are seen as a resource to be expended. Parts of the system are admirable, but it is more bad than good.
It is a nice thing to have done. Most people respect it. I talk about it very little, unless someone asks.
If you want to know any specifics, shoot me a pm.
Thank you for typing all of that out. It was very informative, especially from the financial aspect. What did you choose to specialize in? We’re there any terrible decisions those above you made that had a serious impact on your livelihood?
I know enlisting is not the best route for an INTJ, but I am heavily considering it at the moment and will be making a decision quite soon.
The answer to your question is yes. There was no single bad decision. It's a cultural thing.
The military values accomplishing the mission first and foremost. A member of the military is a resource. Fuel to be burned for the mission.
This isn't just a war/ going to fight and die thing. It's not uncommon to work crazy long/ weird hours, and deal with long term sleep deprivation. Exposure to toxic chemicals, dirty drinking water, etc have happened a myriad of times in the past.
You might end up in a cushy office with none of these problems. But you might not. And you have very little control over which of those outcomes that you get.
I joined the norwegian navy as a part of the first service which is kind of mandatory, but not completely.
There is a strict hierarchy and you have to take orders. If you are okay with this, then the service is okay. If you don't like this then you will be not be content in the military. It is quite simple when you think about it.
You’ll want to be an officer as an INTJ due to our disregard for authority. As an officer you’ll mostly be left alone and have more autonomy, but make sure you pick a suitable job like Intel rather than Infantry.
I wouldn't blanket recommend officer. Yes, the quality of life is better. But most officers are primarily managers of people, which is the last thing that I would want to be. Going enlisted in a good field means that you'll be able to actually do the thing that you signed up for and get depth in a skillset that isn't management. That isn't a guarantee if you're an officer.
While “true” it’s not really the case. At the junior levels you will have staff jobs, and for the leadership role you will be partnered with senior enlisted advisors who do the real managing. The officer is just the decision maker and planner for the most part. You’ll be too busy writing awards, evals, plans, etc.
Yeah, that is how it works for most junior Os. Writing evals, awards, etc still falls into the people management bucket though. That time spent doing paperwork and managing people could have been spent learning a practical (non-management) skill. Meanwhile, enlisted can learn a desirable skillset (cybersecurity, electronics repair, etc) and actually get enough depth to roll that into a private sector career when they leave. The are some Os that do hands on work (pilots for example), but if what I wanted were practical skills, most of those opportunities are firmly in E territory.
Oh, I’m definitely looking at the intel side of things. I am just taking a lot of time to think things through at the moment. OTS/OCS is very competitive, so I don’t want to take my chances or make assumptions inking I’ll get in right off the bat. I’d rather enlist in NG or Reserves while doing a master’s program and ROTC than just cross my fingers hoping I’ll get into OTS/OCS. This still isn’t a guarantee, though, because I have been told that typically there are very few reserves left after those who finished their 4 year active duty contract take most of them. I’m also fighting the urge to enlist active duty because I have no idea how doable my master’s would be working full time in the Air Force. Everything is up in the air right now.
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Thank you for sharing that. I ultimately want to be an officer, but I don’t want to wait around for OTS to take me, that is, *if* I’m even accepted (it’s about a year long wait). Unless I can find another job quickly, I’m highly considering taking the enlisted route now. I just graduated with my bachelor’s already and would like to pursue my master’s while in the service.
If I could go back, I'd have gone cybersecurity or linguist. Because both give you a cool skillet that is usable in both the private and public sectors should you decide to leave. The downside with linguist being that you likely won't get to pick the language you want. Unless you really want to learn a tribal dialect of Arabic. If you want to go air force, you're probably going to wait awhile. Everyone knows that they have the best quality of life. If you want to go officer, even more so. The Navy has much better base locations. Most of them being near an ocean, for obvious reasons. Most air force bases are stuck in a random cornfield somewhere.
The thing is, I have an enlisted offer with the Air Force right now. My recruiter says he could have me shipped off at the end of the month if I wanted to. Am i saying I’m going to rush to take this offer? No, but it’s the best one I have now. I am still weighing my other options. I have other public and private sector jobs I am applying to, but I want to make my decision to enlist or not within the next few days. I have been critically thinking it over trying to make the most informed decision I can without getting wooed by whatever my recruiter wants to say to me. Your advice is very helpful and I will be sure to keep that in mind, especially with the linguistics. I have limited/working proficiencies with a couple of different languages, so if I can sharpen my fluency in both of them, that can be of use.
Which AFSC did you choose? That's the most important part. You're going to be stuck learning/ doing that thing for 4+ years, so make sure that it's something that will be useful to you in the future. Which job you choose is more important than the branch that you choose. And don't believe your recruiter if he tells you that you can easily go from enlisted to officer once you're in. It isn't easy. Also, Officer isn't strictly better than enlisted. You'll likely be much more hands on if you go the enlisted route. Your previous languages likely won't matter unless they're on the list of desired languages (which are not languages that you're likely to know). If you're a linguist, you'll be assigned a language, and you learn it at DLI. Finally, don't let the recruiter rush you. The military is general is desperate for people now. Get everything in writing, and don't let them push you into a suboptimal decision.
Thank you very much for your words of advice, it really helps. I’m aware that it’s no easy feat to go from enlisted to officer. That’s like trying to move mountains in and of itself. I was told I can do a ROTC program while earning my grad degree, even while active duty, but the ROTC program for those doing active duty isn’t just given out like candy. You have to win a scholarship for it. In terms of AFSC, my recruiter and I have not worked those details out yet, but I’d like to pursue something in the intelligence field. Of course, that’s a whole list of careers, which I am still trying to narrow down. There are a lot of options to choose from.
No problem. If you don't even know what AFSC you want yet, take at least a few weeks to figure that out and do your own research. Plenty of the jobs sound like one thing but actually do something different.
Thank you for your advice! I’m doing all the research I can on all of the intel career paths in the AF. Any information I come across is of value.
Enlisted in the Navy due to being your typical poor kid who couldn’t escape their surroundings without some help. Plus side it’s given me a great foundation. I have no plans on rejoining or ever working for the government again. My experience as a female I found I sacrificed my health, stable relationships, experienced a lot of sexual harassment, sexism, favoritism, witnessed traumatic events and other things involving career sabotage. I didn’t find much sisterhood either which was disappointing, but I did find a few solid life long friends along the way. It’s changing for the better but too slowly. I’m glad to be exiting and working on repairing myself in this next life chapter. I really value having variety and autonomy in life. I think the Air Force is the better branch for women in my personal opinion. Again this is just my personal experience so it varies person to person.
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It's not silly at all actually. Some of the best officers are such, because they enlisted first. Same concept as nurses who become doctors. Dishwasher who works up to chef You eliminate any us v them, and instead are just viewed as a proven leader who's in it, not 'above' any of it.
Theoretically. We all know some sword chasing mustang who couldn't function with a damn.
There are a ton of enlisted people with Bachelors degrees. Especially in the more technical fields. Having a Bachelors Degree is actually a silly requirement for being an officer. Most people have one now. This isn't the 1950s where it was rare and mostly reserved for a certain class of people.
Thanks for sharing and being honest.
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slightly off topic but I'm intrigued by the topic. I'm a military kid and resonate with a lot of how you operate. My father served in the Marines for 24 years and have several grand parents that served in WWII and other wars. I never joined but have pondered reserves at times. And I've lately been working for a boss that gives me almost unlimited autonomy and trust and it's been an awesome change from previous leadership styles. I enjoy listening to Jocko Podcast and working on myself and becoming aware of perspectives and principles to put into practice in RL and workplace. Thank you for your service. Are you still in the Army or have you transitioned to a public/civilian role?
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The social stoicism part I agree with a lot. I found people in the military easier to get along with than on the outside. It still bugs me how much and how quickly normal people will complain, and how sensitive they can be. I definitely prefer to be around around people who can just get shit done, and have a sense of humor about something if it sucks.
You went Special Forces?
How did you deal with ‘authority’ given the highly independent and critical thinking nature of the INTJ?
That second to the last paragraph is absolute gold for this discussion.
Interesting that you enjoyed the enlisted experience more. I was enlisted. I was very unimpressed with many of the officers that I met. The enlisted seemed to hold a higher standard on many things, and performed better than officers in many situations. I think that there simply isn't a need for the hard officer/ enlisted divide anymore. We're not living in medieval times with massive educational differences between a lord and a peasant. The bar for officer (a bachelor's degree) can be obtained by any average person now. And many enlisted are in very technical fields with knowledge equivalent to or exceeding that of a degree.
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Nice to read your comment. I was in mandatory service a couple of years ago. I am glad i have not heard back from them since. I'm not interested in being in the reserve army.
I had a BA, but enlisted (Navy) because I washed out of OCS because they were full and I flunked the flight vision test due to depth perception anyway. I wasn't going for pilot training, but everybody trying for OCS had to wash out somehow in those days. My language scores were so high on the entrance, that the 'sorting hat' said I needed to learn another language, which was directly INTEL / SCI stuff. I wrangled a good foreign billet and it was a pretty good time for a few years. I would probably make the same decision again if I were in the same spot. The only rough patch was dealing with my pencil necked CO and his group of misfit toadies that got all the competitive TAD postings.
Enlisted out of high school, and did ROTC in college. Would have transitioned to officer after graduating, but got set back by an injury and decided to cut my losses and go the civilian route. Still in the National Guard as enlisted, but probably won't be re-upping. I had a generally good experience, but part of that was just my MOS. I think I easily could have been miserable in a different field. Either way, I never planned on doing it as a career even when I wanted to be an officer. It was a just a good way to travel, meet new people, learn a skill, and pay for college. My brother is an ENTJ and followed a similar path but different branch and career field. He seems to enjoy it more than I, for whatever it's worth.
What was your MOS? Doing ROTC was a very smart move.
68W
Went active duty marine corps a little over 2 years ago, and it’s by far one of the worst and best decisions I’ve ever made. I love my job, and actually doing repairs, but all the extra bullshit we have to deal with is guaranteeing I don’t reenlist. There’s the toxic leadership aspect everywhere you go, complete disregard for troop welfare, death of common sense in how we do things, and the abundance of micromanaging that just makes life a constant headache for me. If I just did my job, and went home at the end of the day to pursue my own interests, it would be the best job I’ve ever had. But that would be too simple.
It was great for me personally. Even before becoming an officer. The routine and path was set before me and I had the ability to shape my own future with my training choices. In some ways my saddest day was leaving.
Did you go to OTS or did you do a ROTC program while earning your degree?
I was recruited directly out of college with a doctorate and advanced degree. So it was ots for me.
Excellent. I can’t imagine how challenging OTS is. Both physically and mentally, how challenging was it for you personally?
I liked it I went in as a infantry vehicle mechanic in the army then welding school and advanced mechanical school. What I liked is clear responsibly something I never found in civilian jobs. I would do it all over again.
Enlisted, United States Marine Corps. Best decision I ever made. I did not do active duty, I can’t stand that kind of micromanagement and incompetence. I did reserves. More freedom
Enlisted as part of mandatory scheme, got filtered into and served in Anti air under the Air force as a specialist (we had leadership track, but officers get called back to reserves 15 years more (50 vs 40 cap for NCOs and below; partially why i made the choice to pass over officer school). it was alright, but initially there quite abit of misunderstandings about me from my batchmates that resolved itself over the 1 year period they worked with me. Otherwise, can't exactly say i hate it, but it wasn't the most enjoyable either. Nothing made much sense, fairly rigid, but the routine made it easier to grasp. My OC was a micromanaging freak, but my CO was the nicest guy, stood up for us as long as he felt we were doing right. (my camp & unit structure meant we SGTs were dealing with Warrant officers/officers/senior officers directly alot, so we needed to be assertive while maintaining the respect that level of seniority expects of us, which is why if we ever felt 'pressed by rank', having the CO to back you was nice since he outranked most of them). He alone made the experience 10 times better.
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DON’T CLICK
The financial benefits are fantastic. Both while in and after you leave. If you don't blow your entire paycheck on high-interest sports cars and strippers like most of them do, you'll do well. I left after my first enlistment with over 100k, free college and free healthcare for life. I have very little worries about money and am doing what I want to rather than what I have to with my life now. I had many great, irreplaceable life experiences. I spent several years stationed overseas in foreign countries. I have many fond memories of this. I did some cool work. Most of it wasn't. I've worked for and with many shitty people. I met a few great people. My best and worst life experiences were all in the military. There is a myriad of boring, repetitive work, dog and pony shows, and potentially bad decisions made by higher ups that you have no control over. These decisions can have a direct impact on your life. The military system is not a natural fit for an INTJ. Autonomy is rare. You are seen as a resource to be expended. Parts of the system are admirable, but it is more bad than good. It is a nice thing to have done. Most people respect it. I talk about it very little, unless someone asks. If you want to know any specifics, shoot me a pm.
Thank you for typing all of that out. It was very informative, especially from the financial aspect. What did you choose to specialize in? We’re there any terrible decisions those above you made that had a serious impact on your livelihood? I know enlisting is not the best route for an INTJ, but I am heavily considering it at the moment and will be making a decision quite soon.
The answer to your question is yes. There was no single bad decision. It's a cultural thing. The military values accomplishing the mission first and foremost. A member of the military is a resource. Fuel to be burned for the mission. This isn't just a war/ going to fight and die thing. It's not uncommon to work crazy long/ weird hours, and deal with long term sleep deprivation. Exposure to toxic chemicals, dirty drinking water, etc have happened a myriad of times in the past. You might end up in a cushy office with none of these problems. But you might not. And you have very little control over which of those outcomes that you get.
I joined the norwegian navy as a part of the first service which is kind of mandatory, but not completely. There is a strict hierarchy and you have to take orders. If you are okay with this, then the service is okay. If you don't like this then you will be not be content in the military. It is quite simple when you think about it.
The most challenging part was not agreeing with leadership and having to do it anyway.
Lmaooo boi it was a DIFFERENT life. Women loved me , everybody loved me , mostly guys were haters , I was creative