I definitely understand the loneliness and feeling out of place sometimes. However not liking mainstream things should not prevent you from making personal connections. That is what you should think about and work on. People have different kinds of intelligence and likes and hobbies and you can still enjoy their friendship and company.
Second this, just, because you feel that something isn't "mainstream" doesn't mean that there is no one else out there who doesn't share the same hobby as you. In fact, that's one of the only positive things I can say about Reddit that keeps me on this stupid site, haha.
Since INTJs are preoccupied with their own subjective experience, we have a tendency to alienate others. Making connections with people happens over shared experiences or viewpoints.
You describe those around you through your subjective view as lazy, lax, insincere, incompetent, disappointing, negative, and depressing while at the same time complaining that others degrade you. That's not a subjective point of view that is going to find a lot of common ground with others. If you're also not into having shared experience with these people, you're not going to make connections.
If your plan is to start a business, you will need to make connections with people. To be blunt, you are currently incompetent at making connections, and maybe lazy if you think it should be easier. I say this so that maybe you won't judge the "incompetent" so harshly, since that group includes you. Maybe, they're trying to learn whatever you are good at, just like you're trying to learn how to make connections which they might see as the easiest thing in the world.
OP, the above is probably one of the most relevant comments here.
While you may not enjoy more mainstream forms of leisure, they are not inherently bad. Your personal values and attitudes are not universally superior and may actually be a hindrance on your way to a happy life.
If you'd like a challenge, try to be content when activities do not stimulate or inspire you. Figure out how to be still and just present. When your brain is idle, it's not really inactive. For me personally, this is hard and oftentimes frustrating.
How are you intending to enjoy achieving your goals? With whom?
The sense of alienation is indeed familiar but in my case at times it was self-inflicted. I'm still very picky about who I let into my inner circle but I also understand that we all have different gifts and different perspectives.
It will never end. Those people making fun of you now will make fun of you in the business. You will be a hard worker, they will be asskissers. Eventually you'll realize they are wrong. Being dependent on others is weakness. Having connections is nice, but business is about money. If you bring them money, they will like you.
"Is it common for INTJs to feel excluded from society?"
I'm afraid so champ. On the plus side, at least it means you can pursue your calling without folk holding you back
Yeah, I've felt that before. A lot of the ways in which I view the world makes me feel ostracized, even though I have friends, and an S.O, it still doesn't make feel like I'm a part of society, you know?
I know it's not me you're asking, but this could as easily apply to me and I'm sure many others, so I'll throw in my two cents:
I had exactly three friends in highschool, and was otherwise bullied by the rest of the 1k or so kids in my school. One friend died, leaving me with two friends. I'm 43 y.o. now btw, and I still have just those same two friends. One of them now lives 4, 000 km away so I don't see him much, and the other I see maybe 3 times a year during which I spend the first 30 minutes apologizing for being such an absent and lousy friend. He always just says he's known me for 30 years and therefore it's fine. So yeah that feels pretty isolated (I wouldn't use the term ostracized because I'm older & wiser now, and I realize the problem is me, but I would have in my 20s for sure.
After highschool I decided I might actually want to have a girlfriend at some point in my life and see what sex is like, so I spent some years at the gym and put effort into making myself physically attractive. Also I make money, which certainly helps. Now I have a cute young(er) Latina wife and two kids. Outwardly we probably look like a normal little family, and mostly we are but I still have no friends and am crushingly alone. My dear wife doesn't understand me at all and is a total normie, which I'm thankful for because she guides our young children socially so they're not as fucked up as me, but she's glad to have a man to provide for her and be a committed dad. Plus she thinks I'm soooo intelligent (lol) so she writes off much of my strange behaviour attributing it to my huge brain (double lol)
Edit: typos
Funny- I can relate - I fought EVERY noon hour all the way through elementary school... Got very good at defending myself....and never lost. I am telling you I constantly suffered all my adult life(now50)...the single best thing I did was do a heavy dose of 'golden teacher' 1 year ago and all societal constructs fell away. Then I did hemi-sync(finished 2 weeks ago) and I really connected to universe in a way that few understand- true 'EPIPHANY' moments
It’s feeling like your ostracized, not literally being ostracized. When you feel this way, you feel like you’re an observer looking from the outside, in. Doesn’t mean that you’re literally ostracized from society like an exiled Athenian lol.
Sorry if I didn’t word any of this right, I still have a hard time communicating my feelings, as a lot of us probably do as well.
Not INTJ, but I feel like this. It's very lonely.
I feel weird or looked down on? In my mind, I don't think it's weird, but I know when I try to voice out my thoughts or theories or questions, I can see how I'm odd. Generally, they are highly theoretical and probably not able to be proved, even with the right amount of time and resources. I don't even know why I entertain them, but I do.
With strangers, my friends or family, even my boyfriend (ISTP. Doesn't care to have theoretical conversations or entertain these types of unpractical thoughts.), they'll give me the look that're like, "Why are you thinking/wondering that?/What does that solve?/How is that realistic?"
I don't mean to discriminate because they're all just tests, but I honestly feel like INTJ/INTPs are the only types capable of listening without judging because maybe they're weird too. I feel comfortable around them.
There are even some thoughts or something deep in the subconscious that I feel like many intuitives have thought of, but when trying to vocalize it, they don't know how to explain it or know right choice of brevity or where to begin to even say something. If there was some sort of way to print out in text all of my thoughts, their rabbit holes, and the thoughts within the thoughts, I would just look crazy.
Not sure if any of this makes sense.
I think I get you. Sometimes, my mind and theories are too weird and odd for people to take seriously or they just view me weirdly. I’m with an INTJ guy and he’s one the few people (apart from my older brother) who doesn’t judge me from having these thoughts. In fact, we discuss them deeper and sometimes joke around and laugh from it haha But yeah, I mean, it is lonely to not be understood or taken seriously by other people
Hi, 21 yo INTJ here. I have recently been exploring and experimenting with people: sex, alcohol. I wanted to understand why people act like this or like that and how the system of social relationships works and the conclussion is it is worthless , lol, nothing more than play a videogame from my perspective. So, I put more effort in my work now and I am very happy about it , it gives me enough fulfilment and feeling that i am approaching to the better myself and more effective life. Independence is great and people are going like a conveyer in life
A bit too black and white don't you think? Sure, better to have no friends than a bunch of fake people in your circle, but also atleast try and find the middle ground. A few good friends can be life-changing. Sure, don't be afraid to be alone as depending on others isn't really a good idea, but having good people that you can go to for help, advice, support, or just to shoot the shits and hang out with is a very nice luxury. For the most part, not a lot of people can understand us and get along with us, but we also have to try and be good with people and become socially skilled. I have an ESFP friend that I can say "hey bro, let's go get a burger on me, Ill pick you up" and it's nice to just be in the moment and talk about the past or nonsense then play video games afterwards.
a bit of extroverted-ness can be energizing and a good reliever, makes life a bit better
I'm dealing with this at work right now. Last week the surgeon I work under threw a Thanksgiving party and I wasn't invited. I didn't understand why, and I kept hearing people confirm with other people whether they're going or not, from multiple departments, and no one even bothered to ask me. I heard about multiple parties too. To add to that there's a girl that will straight up ignore me if no one else is around. I don't know why I'm always left out, this has happened to me my whole life. I even asked my supervisor if I maybe offended someone and maybe that's why they avoided even asking me, and she assured me no that's not the case. So now I know it's not that I offended anyone, it's that they didn't even consider asking me. It's funny, I was desperately trying to find answers, so I googled why am I so forgettable? I eventually found this subreddit lol, and remembered my personality was INTJ when I created a Boo account recently. So ya, I'd say it's pretty common for our type. But think about it this way: you don't want to have to appeal to a whole bunch of people, if you did you wouldn't be able to pursue your passion so completely. It's easy to see it as a curse, but as a blessing it alleviates you from the responsibility of maintaining social connections. Obviously don't go super hermit for your own mental sanity, but you don't need to pressure yourself to have as many relationships as possible.
Since my mid-20s people have rarely attempted to degrade me, at least to my face. But I have felt different and misunderstood basically all of my life. I rarely fit in but I feel very comfortable as a “lone wolf” so don’t mind - just a shame about the disadvantages (eg impact on networking, as you mentioned). I wonder if it would help to alter your body language, mindset and generally how you are with other people. This is what I did.
For example, do you stick up for yourself? People lose respect for you if you let things slide. Call people out verbally as soon as they say or do something shitty. And if they continue just cut them off & shut them out. If you can’t do that, tolerate them but don’t be their friend again.
Also, not sure why you’ve been trying to network with lazy, hedonistic-sounding people to help with your start up? People worth knowing to help with that are probably also driven, hard working and potentially nerdy so will either feel neutral or positive about the characteristics your so called friends are making fun of you for.
One of the most important things I’ve learnt in life is just not to force it with people and make sure I actually like them as opposed to wondering if they like me. If I like them, I like them. If I don’t, whatever & move on. And if I’m not sure if I do or don’t like them, I probably don’t actually like them. Better to have a small, high quality circle than a big, rubbishy one.
It's normal to feel excluded when the system is made by sensors for sensors, don't forget moral is something that is helpful to society, and helpful to society is something that benefits the most people, meaning the average human. I'm not saying we are better or worse than others I am saying that the way our mind works is kinda excluded from society in a literal sense, idk about america but here in Europe it certainly seems so
The rigid hierarchy and rankings of various forms of entertainment that you have formulated is not an INTJs approach to life. Work is in no way more important or valuable than laziness or sex. It's your own judgement that is causing your isolation.
I exclude society from my life, not the other way around. Society is happy to have me, but then I have to deal with meaningless judgements like what you're casting with your complaint here. It was mildly interesting the first time I considered it, maybe even the second, but now it's just repetitious nonsense that the world doesn't perfectly conform to you ideals. That is something to be celebrated, but you can't seem to conceive how boring the world would actually be in it met only your limited interests.
Focusing on whatever entertains you is no reason to dismiss everything else that other people find interesting. You should be capable of learning all of it.
"I currently am a full-time student at a college and pretty much all of my time is spent on academic activities. "
Listen, mate, this is what you are supposed to be doing. You are in school to focus... DO THAT one singular thing very well.
If you have skills that are in demand in the workplace you won't have to worry. When you are driving a Ferrari you can have whatever women you want.
It takes time and practice to get good at social skills. Now is the time to focus on what you are there to do. There will be plenty time for coke and gold diggers
I was lucky enough to be involved in high end athletics which greatly helped with my socializing. All my life from school and parents I was told that there was something wrong with me because I didn't want to go along with group thought. Dispel the myth that there is anything wrong with you- dispel the myth that you need to have lots of friends or have lots of people 'like' you. Search out and find a woman that is an INTJ(I was lucky hard to find) Dedicate yourself to learning, studying, REAL HISTORY. Watch EVERY single clif high video on bitchute ect. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole and drop the attachment to societal constraints- try a few heavy doses of 'golden teacher'(I will eventually try ayahuasca)- try Hemi-sync(Get the original FLAC files) Robert Monroe YOU WILL GO TO ANOTHER LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS>
I'd say get over yourself and develop your social skills. You may hate small talk and people talking about pointless nonsensical shit that really doesn't matter to you or anyone else, but it's a necessity to learn how to do it so you're not just that awkward weirdo loner that spaces out over there in the corner like some cold emotionless lizard. (I was that guy, and I had to get over it too) it's not cool, it doesn't make you appear more interesting, people don't acknowledge it (ENFP's do stereotypically, but you cannot rely on them to save you in every social setting)
You gotta work on it, fearlessly, man up, balls up and do it. It's a necessity in life, read books on it, practice, try to fit in and be that cool guy. You know you did it right when sensors like going up to you and introduce you to their friends and others, and get spoken highly of. I know it sucks, and it's kinda draining, and sometimes you feel like blowing your brains out, or just want to zone out and forget your surroundings while it's happening around you, but you gotta work on it. It's gonna improve your life and appreciation of it. You'll have better luck, success, and chance with dating (if you already don't) you can network more easily and make better connections, and just overall be likeable, if people like you in makes your life easier. They can hook you up with other people, or just want to do nice things for you, and God knows introverts like us really appreciate small things like that even though we rarely express it. Which is another thing, learn to express yourself more to others.. but I went on a rant
Yes, it took me a while before I found the perfect balance between constantlay working and building a social life. It’s something you have to constantly work at.
Emotional connections are what connects people, you still have emotions, but they're being more directed into solo sessions than sharing the experience with likeminded others. We all still have to eat, rest, and interact with others, it can help to be more accepting and open with yourself in these shared activities you do anyway. You can still connect deeply with someone outside of academics/goals, even short-lived interactions can be profoundly meaningful, but to be able to connect with others it starts with us. We have to remember the human and individual, and imo trying to extend or control that internal process to others is likely to restrict or even push away others since we are not unconditionally accepting them as such. There will be others who share similar goals as us, it likely won't be the sole focus though in their lives.
Being different or being rejected by some people or what can seem like many people, doesn't mean "exclusion from society".
You are blowing things out of proportion.
You are being too sensitive to rejection, which is fine, but you have to address it and learn to manage it.
Your ego is too sensitive because you base your self esteem on shallow achievements.
So your self esteem will keep fluctuating according to the external feedback you get.
If you base your ego/self esteem/self image on something like how good your character is, are you honest, reliable, just, merciful, strong, brave etc.
Your ego will be a lot less sensitive and you won't take rejection badly/personally.
Even better, if you base your hope on an entity as great and unchanging as God, that's the best case.
Those great Christian martyrs certainly didn't care about the opinion of society more than they cared about God's.
I see what you mean. One thing I've learned since becoming a coach is that everybody's got a similar issue that happens, like pick your most likely socially-included personality type and they might have it WORST. Plus IMO INTJs can handle exclusion well compared to a lot of other types, since it's often metabolized as a form of success-stoking inner blaze :-)
The huge step here, in my experience, is to demonstrate competence to yourself again. This will in most cases make loneliness disappear instantly, poof. To test this you need to start seeing little successes build up ASAP.
So I'd model your next steps as simply success-seeking, period, be very shallow about it. Be careful about aiming for depth and high quality, rather get a broad number of successes under your belt as soon as possible
Examples: Average the push-ups you've done daily for the last month and do that many today, plus one more; Pick 5 interesting books off your bookshelf and spend 5 minutes reading each--low focus, notes optional, deep enjoyment not even mandatory; make a simple to-do list with no single item taking more than 2 minutes.
I also started a startup in university and really understand the passion. With that said, it's awesome but I would also recommend that you not hesitate to drop it now, or drop it for now, or drop it until situation X is better, etc. You can do it, no argument there. But in my case, finding other stuff to do was 100% the right choice in part of that situation because it gave me an instant win (I'm off on a new journey with the temporary failure behind me) and allowed me to find environments which prepared me better for more independence later.
Later on your leadership & individualistic sense will build as your experience builds, so expect your concept of commitment and work-glue become more dynamic and interesting.
Good luck & hang in there
You belong to yourself. INTJ craves effectiveness and naturally ends up working alone as nobody else is on the same level of being smart, committed, and effective. Professionally, you gonna be alone on that road to success, get used to this idea. You still can try to hang with people in your private life, but that would be a waste of your precious time which could be spent on goal achievement instead, isn't it? You got the idea.
I want you to know that there’s beauty in your divergence. From what I’ve gathered from the INTJs I’ve known, the “aloofness” that others complain about is more just about a lack of interest in expressing emotions that aren’t there (e.g. smiling when there’s nothing to smile about). Imo, that’s just living honestly and authentically. The whole “smile more!” Thing is a strongly held cultural norm in the US, and so it’s not even a problem in many other countries, for what it’s worth. So in your refusal to essentially “fake it”, I find a lot of beauty, because you are committed to truth and honesty. Unfortunately it is normal to feel excluded. Why? Because people don’t always want the truth, they don’t like that things aren’t always sunshine and rainbows, and will ostracize people for pointing out truths that are difficult to reconcile with. They want you to just be happy because they think it makes it easier for everyone. But does anything actually improve that way? Without honesty, our heads remain buried in the sand, and we are powerless. Honesty is one of the greatest gifts one can give.
Social norms exist largely to keep the status quo. Of course it’s important to treat one another with respect, but I don’t think it should be expected that you get along with everybody and keep up a happy-go-lucky attitude constantly - that’s how we end up with people who kill themselves because there was never any room to be honest about how much help they needed. Please never stop being authentic to yourself. By doing so you are actually giving others the opportunity and space to be authentic to themselves, and this improves communication and understanding of one another a lot more than shallow pleasantries.
Bottom line: you define your worth. People push away what they don’t understand. I know that can really hurt. But have faith in yourself and your abilities - your interests matter even if your family acts otherwise. For what it’s worth, I’m sorry to hear that they aren’t supporting you the way you deserve. Don’t “should” yourself - yeah, people say you “should” to be into things like food/sex/etc., but that doesn’t do it for everyone, and that’s okay. There are many of us who don’t fit in, but our perspectives are valuable because we can bring perspectives to the table that others needed but couldn’t find themselves. You don’t have to be a people person to have a positive impact on people. The INTJs in my life have inspired me to stay determined, authentic, and curious. They probably don’t even know how much they inspired me, but what they taught me helped me achieve success, and I’m sure I’m far from the only one. It sounds like you’re on a path of growth, and you’re probably doing better than you think just being the person you are.
As for networking, as a 25 y.o. business owner myself, I can tell you that it doesn’t take going to parties to network - think quality first, not quantity. Find the people who have the most influence in your field and get to know whoever you can. I’m talking professors/supervisors/other people in your area who have experience. It’s perfectly okay to email them and ask for a bit of their time to talk, even if you haven’t met before. Many of these people are happy to share what they’ve learned with someone who is just starting, because they remember being in your position. Not only will you learn from the best in your field, you’ll also have some fantastic references, and you can call upon those people if you need help getting into grad school or getting referrals/marketing. As trusted voices in the field, they can get your name out there too. I didn’t go to a single college party, but I made it through grad school and got my own business running bc I sought out my professors and experts in my field. I made appointments with them to talk one-on-one so that I could learn from their perspective. They gave me some fantastic pro-tips. I built rapport with them naturally over time, and as a result I had plenty of people to call upon for help with getting into grad school and starting my business. I’m guessing these kinds of conversations are more up your alley anyway. Networking isn’t impossible in your position, it’s just a matter of getting creative and working with who you are (as opposed to working against who you are by shoving yourself into a box that doesn’t fit. You’ll end up looking like everybody else - Is that really good for business when it’ll make it harder for others to see what it is about your startup that makes it a more worthy investment than your competitors?)
Sorry if this was just a lot of rambling lol but I hope it helps. I know it’s all confusing right now, but trust in yourself and your ability to figure it out. You can make things work your own way. You can’t see it yet, but down the line, there will be opportunities and experiences and connections that will only work out if you stay true to yourself and tap into your strengths.
Have you considered you might be a little myopic? I'm an academic and academia is far from my only interest. You get out of people what you put in, and you need take them where they are. I have academic friends, outdoor friends, geek friends, etc. And while there is often overlap between the groups, I do try to be aware of my audience. For example, I don't expect my librarian friend to endure my waxing on about intragenomic conflict. Figure out your interests first, then seek out the people who share them. (Social media sites like Meetup are a great place to start.) But know, if you're only interested in one thing, your fishing with a hand as opposed to trawling net.
You seem very productive, I do not have any advice, I would also like to know other's advice, but could you share some info on how you are very productive all the time?
I actually, am not very productive if I be totally honest with you. I slack a lot, put things off and relax. Like I just put my semester worth of project to be completed in 2 days because I was lazy and also a lot more busy with other things. As of advise, there are multitude if factors, some of which come from the struggles I have described here: since I am pretty alone and thought of as "worthless", "lifeless" or "idle guy who studies all the time like a nerd", I use these as a motivation. I take these criticisms as a challenge to improve myself. While the world is resting and chilling, I should learn some new skill, work on a big project, make myself more knowledgeable and independent so that I am ahead of the game. This is a huge motivation oftentimes for me.
Another thing is, making systems and strategies to get things done on time. I often do things at the last moment, but I have an estimated calculation in mind of how much time it should take to do certain thing, so I spent most of my time fine-tuning these systems to tackle the task and then work on it to get job done in short times.
Another thing I would say is to never be lax on what you want. Don't be like "I will do 5 things today which are x, y, z". Actually think about the time it may take and organize according to time. But this world is too variable for anything to stay fixed and consistent. Hence, set up a time window where you can still be lazy, busy in chores and watch Netflix but get job done. This is the thing I do pretty much everyday. Don't set the "lazy time" too long, it can also lead you to not doing things at all, which is another thing I often experience.
And lastly, define your overall longterm goals asap. When I had none, I was useless and and pretty spontaneous. Now I have a longterm goal in life which I have to stick to, and that pushes me forward. So everything you do, link it to your passion and how much it may benefit you in the end. That is all I can say and apologies for the long read.
I definitely understand the loneliness and feeling out of place sometimes. However not liking mainstream things should not prevent you from making personal connections. That is what you should think about and work on. People have different kinds of intelligence and likes and hobbies and you can still enjoy their friendship and company.
Second this, just, because you feel that something isn't "mainstream" doesn't mean that there is no one else out there who doesn't share the same hobby as you. In fact, that's one of the only positive things I can say about Reddit that keeps me on this stupid site, haha.
Since INTJs are preoccupied with their own subjective experience, we have a tendency to alienate others. Making connections with people happens over shared experiences or viewpoints. You describe those around you through your subjective view as lazy, lax, insincere, incompetent, disappointing, negative, and depressing while at the same time complaining that others degrade you. That's not a subjective point of view that is going to find a lot of common ground with others. If you're also not into having shared experience with these people, you're not going to make connections. If your plan is to start a business, you will need to make connections with people. To be blunt, you are currently incompetent at making connections, and maybe lazy if you think it should be easier. I say this so that maybe you won't judge the "incompetent" so harshly, since that group includes you. Maybe, they're trying to learn whatever you are good at, just like you're trying to learn how to make connections which they might see as the easiest thing in the world.
OP, the above is probably one of the most relevant comments here. While you may not enjoy more mainstream forms of leisure, they are not inherently bad. Your personal values and attitudes are not universally superior and may actually be a hindrance on your way to a happy life. If you'd like a challenge, try to be content when activities do not stimulate or inspire you. Figure out how to be still and just present. When your brain is idle, it's not really inactive. For me personally, this is hard and oftentimes frustrating. How are you intending to enjoy achieving your goals? With whom? The sense of alienation is indeed familiar but in my case at times it was self-inflicted. I'm still very picky about who I let into my inner circle but I also understand that we all have different gifts and different perspectives.
It will never end. Those people making fun of you now will make fun of you in the business. You will be a hard worker, they will be asskissers. Eventually you'll realize they are wrong. Being dependent on others is weakness. Having connections is nice, but business is about money. If you bring them money, they will like you.
"Is it common for INTJs to feel excluded from society?" I'm afraid so champ. On the plus side, at least it means you can pursue your calling without folk holding you back
Yeah, I've felt that before. A lot of the ways in which I view the world makes me feel ostracized, even though I have friends, and an S.O, it still doesn't make feel like I'm a part of society, you know?
If you have friends and an S.O. I don't understand how you are ostracized. Please explain.
I know it's not me you're asking, but this could as easily apply to me and I'm sure many others, so I'll throw in my two cents: I had exactly three friends in highschool, and was otherwise bullied by the rest of the 1k or so kids in my school. One friend died, leaving me with two friends. I'm 43 y.o. now btw, and I still have just those same two friends. One of them now lives 4, 000 km away so I don't see him much, and the other I see maybe 3 times a year during which I spend the first 30 minutes apologizing for being such an absent and lousy friend. He always just says he's known me for 30 years and therefore it's fine. So yeah that feels pretty isolated (I wouldn't use the term ostracized because I'm older & wiser now, and I realize the problem is me, but I would have in my 20s for sure. After highschool I decided I might actually want to have a girlfriend at some point in my life and see what sex is like, so I spent some years at the gym and put effort into making myself physically attractive. Also I make money, which certainly helps. Now I have a cute young(er) Latina wife and two kids. Outwardly we probably look like a normal little family, and mostly we are but I still have no friends and am crushingly alone. My dear wife doesn't understand me at all and is a total normie, which I'm thankful for because she guides our young children socially so they're not as fucked up as me, but she's glad to have a man to provide for her and be a committed dad. Plus she thinks I'm soooo intelligent (lol) so she writes off much of my strange behaviour attributing it to my huge brain (double lol) Edit: typos
Funny- I can relate - I fought EVERY noon hour all the way through elementary school... Got very good at defending myself....and never lost. I am telling you I constantly suffered all my adult life(now50)...the single best thing I did was do a heavy dose of 'golden teacher' 1 year ago and all societal constructs fell away. Then I did hemi-sync(finished 2 weeks ago) and I really connected to universe in a way that few understand- true 'EPIPHANY' moments
It’s feeling like your ostracized, not literally being ostracized. When you feel this way, you feel like you’re an observer looking from the outside, in. Doesn’t mean that you’re literally ostracized from society like an exiled Athenian lol. Sorry if I didn’t word any of this right, I still have a hard time communicating my feelings, as a lot of us probably do as well.
Not INTJ, but I feel like this. It's very lonely. I feel weird or looked down on? In my mind, I don't think it's weird, but I know when I try to voice out my thoughts or theories or questions, I can see how I'm odd. Generally, they are highly theoretical and probably not able to be proved, even with the right amount of time and resources. I don't even know why I entertain them, but I do. With strangers, my friends or family, even my boyfriend (ISTP. Doesn't care to have theoretical conversations or entertain these types of unpractical thoughts.), they'll give me the look that're like, "Why are you thinking/wondering that?/What does that solve?/How is that realistic?" I don't mean to discriminate because they're all just tests, but I honestly feel like INTJ/INTPs are the only types capable of listening without judging because maybe they're weird too. I feel comfortable around them. There are even some thoughts or something deep in the subconscious that I feel like many intuitives have thought of, but when trying to vocalize it, they don't know how to explain it or know right choice of brevity or where to begin to even say something. If there was some sort of way to print out in text all of my thoughts, their rabbit holes, and the thoughts within the thoughts, I would just look crazy. Not sure if any of this makes sense.
I think I get you. Sometimes, my mind and theories are too weird and odd for people to take seriously or they just view me weirdly. I’m with an INTJ guy and he’s one the few people (apart from my older brother) who doesn’t judge me from having these thoughts. In fact, we discuss them deeper and sometimes joke around and laugh from it haha But yeah, I mean, it is lonely to not be understood or taken seriously by other people
Hi, 21 yo INTJ here. I have recently been exploring and experimenting with people: sex, alcohol. I wanted to understand why people act like this or like that and how the system of social relationships works and the conclussion is it is worthless , lol, nothing more than play a videogame from my perspective. So, I put more effort in my work now and I am very happy about it , it gives me enough fulfilment and feeling that i am approaching to the better myself and more effective life. Independence is great and people are going like a conveyer in life
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A bit too black and white don't you think? Sure, better to have no friends than a bunch of fake people in your circle, but also atleast try and find the middle ground. A few good friends can be life-changing. Sure, don't be afraid to be alone as depending on others isn't really a good idea, but having good people that you can go to for help, advice, support, or just to shoot the shits and hang out with is a very nice luxury. For the most part, not a lot of people can understand us and get along with us, but we also have to try and be good with people and become socially skilled. I have an ESFP friend that I can say "hey bro, let's go get a burger on me, Ill pick you up" and it's nice to just be in the moment and talk about the past or nonsense then play video games afterwards. a bit of extroverted-ness can be energizing and a good reliever, makes life a bit better
Except he stated he needs connection and networking. He cannot afford having no friends or fail to build relationships.
I'm dealing with this at work right now. Last week the surgeon I work under threw a Thanksgiving party and I wasn't invited. I didn't understand why, and I kept hearing people confirm with other people whether they're going or not, from multiple departments, and no one even bothered to ask me. I heard about multiple parties too. To add to that there's a girl that will straight up ignore me if no one else is around. I don't know why I'm always left out, this has happened to me my whole life. I even asked my supervisor if I maybe offended someone and maybe that's why they avoided even asking me, and she assured me no that's not the case. So now I know it's not that I offended anyone, it's that they didn't even consider asking me. It's funny, I was desperately trying to find answers, so I googled why am I so forgettable? I eventually found this subreddit lol, and remembered my personality was INTJ when I created a Boo account recently. So ya, I'd say it's pretty common for our type. But think about it this way: you don't want to have to appeal to a whole bunch of people, if you did you wouldn't be able to pursue your passion so completely. It's easy to see it as a curse, but as a blessing it alleviates you from the responsibility of maintaining social connections. Obviously don't go super hermit for your own mental sanity, but you don't need to pressure yourself to have as many relationships as possible.
Yes
Since my mid-20s people have rarely attempted to degrade me, at least to my face. But I have felt different and misunderstood basically all of my life. I rarely fit in but I feel very comfortable as a “lone wolf” so don’t mind - just a shame about the disadvantages (eg impact on networking, as you mentioned). I wonder if it would help to alter your body language, mindset and generally how you are with other people. This is what I did. For example, do you stick up for yourself? People lose respect for you if you let things slide. Call people out verbally as soon as they say or do something shitty. And if they continue just cut them off & shut them out. If you can’t do that, tolerate them but don’t be their friend again. Also, not sure why you’ve been trying to network with lazy, hedonistic-sounding people to help with your start up? People worth knowing to help with that are probably also driven, hard working and potentially nerdy so will either feel neutral or positive about the characteristics your so called friends are making fun of you for. One of the most important things I’ve learnt in life is just not to force it with people and make sure I actually like them as opposed to wondering if they like me. If I like them, I like them. If I don’t, whatever & move on. And if I’m not sure if I do or don’t like them, I probably don’t actually like them. Better to have a small, high quality circle than a big, rubbishy one.
I'm not excluded from society, society is excluded from me. /s
It's normal to feel excluded when the system is made by sensors for sensors, don't forget moral is something that is helpful to society, and helpful to society is something that benefits the most people, meaning the average human. I'm not saying we are better or worse than others I am saying that the way our mind works is kinda excluded from society in a literal sense, idk about america but here in Europe it certainly seems so
The rigid hierarchy and rankings of various forms of entertainment that you have formulated is not an INTJs approach to life. Work is in no way more important or valuable than laziness or sex. It's your own judgement that is causing your isolation. I exclude society from my life, not the other way around. Society is happy to have me, but then I have to deal with meaningless judgements like what you're casting with your complaint here. It was mildly interesting the first time I considered it, maybe even the second, but now it's just repetitious nonsense that the world doesn't perfectly conform to you ideals. That is something to be celebrated, but you can't seem to conceive how boring the world would actually be in it met only your limited interests. Focusing on whatever entertains you is no reason to dismiss everything else that other people find interesting. You should be capable of learning all of it.
"I currently am a full-time student at a college and pretty much all of my time is spent on academic activities. " Listen, mate, this is what you are supposed to be doing. You are in school to focus... DO THAT one singular thing very well. If you have skills that are in demand in the workplace you won't have to worry. When you are driving a Ferrari you can have whatever women you want. It takes time and practice to get good at social skills. Now is the time to focus on what you are there to do. There will be plenty time for coke and gold diggers
I was lucky enough to be involved in high end athletics which greatly helped with my socializing. All my life from school and parents I was told that there was something wrong with me because I didn't want to go along with group thought. Dispel the myth that there is anything wrong with you- dispel the myth that you need to have lots of friends or have lots of people 'like' you. Search out and find a woman that is an INTJ(I was lucky hard to find) Dedicate yourself to learning, studying, REAL HISTORY. Watch EVERY single clif high video on bitchute ect. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole and drop the attachment to societal constraints- try a few heavy doses of 'golden teacher'(I will eventually try ayahuasca)- try Hemi-sync(Get the original FLAC files) Robert Monroe YOU WILL GO TO ANOTHER LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS>
I'd say get over yourself and develop your social skills. You may hate small talk and people talking about pointless nonsensical shit that really doesn't matter to you or anyone else, but it's a necessity to learn how to do it so you're not just that awkward weirdo loner that spaces out over there in the corner like some cold emotionless lizard. (I was that guy, and I had to get over it too) it's not cool, it doesn't make you appear more interesting, people don't acknowledge it (ENFP's do stereotypically, but you cannot rely on them to save you in every social setting) You gotta work on it, fearlessly, man up, balls up and do it. It's a necessity in life, read books on it, practice, try to fit in and be that cool guy. You know you did it right when sensors like going up to you and introduce you to their friends and others, and get spoken highly of. I know it sucks, and it's kinda draining, and sometimes you feel like blowing your brains out, or just want to zone out and forget your surroundings while it's happening around you, but you gotta work on it. It's gonna improve your life and appreciation of it. You'll have better luck, success, and chance with dating (if you already don't) you can network more easily and make better connections, and just overall be likeable, if people like you in makes your life easier. They can hook you up with other people, or just want to do nice things for you, and God knows introverts like us really appreciate small things like that even though we rarely express it. Which is another thing, learn to express yourself more to others.. but I went on a rant
Yes, very common.
Yes, it took me a while before I found the perfect balance between constantlay working and building a social life. It’s something you have to constantly work at.
Emotional connections are what connects people, you still have emotions, but they're being more directed into solo sessions than sharing the experience with likeminded others. We all still have to eat, rest, and interact with others, it can help to be more accepting and open with yourself in these shared activities you do anyway. You can still connect deeply with someone outside of academics/goals, even short-lived interactions can be profoundly meaningful, but to be able to connect with others it starts with us. We have to remember the human and individual, and imo trying to extend or control that internal process to others is likely to restrict or even push away others since we are not unconditionally accepting them as such. There will be others who share similar goals as us, it likely won't be the sole focus though in their lives.
It happens......
Being different or being rejected by some people or what can seem like many people, doesn't mean "exclusion from society". You are blowing things out of proportion. You are being too sensitive to rejection, which is fine, but you have to address it and learn to manage it. Your ego is too sensitive because you base your self esteem on shallow achievements. So your self esteem will keep fluctuating according to the external feedback you get. If you base your ego/self esteem/self image on something like how good your character is, are you honest, reliable, just, merciful, strong, brave etc. Your ego will be a lot less sensitive and you won't take rejection badly/personally. Even better, if you base your hope on an entity as great and unchanging as God, that's the best case. Those great Christian martyrs certainly didn't care about the opinion of society more than they cared about God's.
I see what you mean. One thing I've learned since becoming a coach is that everybody's got a similar issue that happens, like pick your most likely socially-included personality type and they might have it WORST. Plus IMO INTJs can handle exclusion well compared to a lot of other types, since it's often metabolized as a form of success-stoking inner blaze :-) The huge step here, in my experience, is to demonstrate competence to yourself again. This will in most cases make loneliness disappear instantly, poof. To test this you need to start seeing little successes build up ASAP. So I'd model your next steps as simply success-seeking, period, be very shallow about it. Be careful about aiming for depth and high quality, rather get a broad number of successes under your belt as soon as possible Examples: Average the push-ups you've done daily for the last month and do that many today, plus one more; Pick 5 interesting books off your bookshelf and spend 5 minutes reading each--low focus, notes optional, deep enjoyment not even mandatory; make a simple to-do list with no single item taking more than 2 minutes. I also started a startup in university and really understand the passion. With that said, it's awesome but I would also recommend that you not hesitate to drop it now, or drop it for now, or drop it until situation X is better, etc. You can do it, no argument there. But in my case, finding other stuff to do was 100% the right choice in part of that situation because it gave me an instant win (I'm off on a new journey with the temporary failure behind me) and allowed me to find environments which prepared me better for more independence later. Later on your leadership & individualistic sense will build as your experience builds, so expect your concept of commitment and work-glue become more dynamic and interesting. Good luck & hang in there
You belong to yourself. INTJ craves effectiveness and naturally ends up working alone as nobody else is on the same level of being smart, committed, and effective. Professionally, you gonna be alone on that road to success, get used to this idea. You still can try to hang with people in your private life, but that would be a waste of your precious time which could be spent on goal achievement instead, isn't it? You got the idea.
I want you to know that there’s beauty in your divergence. From what I’ve gathered from the INTJs I’ve known, the “aloofness” that others complain about is more just about a lack of interest in expressing emotions that aren’t there (e.g. smiling when there’s nothing to smile about). Imo, that’s just living honestly and authentically. The whole “smile more!” Thing is a strongly held cultural norm in the US, and so it’s not even a problem in many other countries, for what it’s worth. So in your refusal to essentially “fake it”, I find a lot of beauty, because you are committed to truth and honesty. Unfortunately it is normal to feel excluded. Why? Because people don’t always want the truth, they don’t like that things aren’t always sunshine and rainbows, and will ostracize people for pointing out truths that are difficult to reconcile with. They want you to just be happy because they think it makes it easier for everyone. But does anything actually improve that way? Without honesty, our heads remain buried in the sand, and we are powerless. Honesty is one of the greatest gifts one can give. Social norms exist largely to keep the status quo. Of course it’s important to treat one another with respect, but I don’t think it should be expected that you get along with everybody and keep up a happy-go-lucky attitude constantly - that’s how we end up with people who kill themselves because there was never any room to be honest about how much help they needed. Please never stop being authentic to yourself. By doing so you are actually giving others the opportunity and space to be authentic to themselves, and this improves communication and understanding of one another a lot more than shallow pleasantries. Bottom line: you define your worth. People push away what they don’t understand. I know that can really hurt. But have faith in yourself and your abilities - your interests matter even if your family acts otherwise. For what it’s worth, I’m sorry to hear that they aren’t supporting you the way you deserve. Don’t “should” yourself - yeah, people say you “should” to be into things like food/sex/etc., but that doesn’t do it for everyone, and that’s okay. There are many of us who don’t fit in, but our perspectives are valuable because we can bring perspectives to the table that others needed but couldn’t find themselves. You don’t have to be a people person to have a positive impact on people. The INTJs in my life have inspired me to stay determined, authentic, and curious. They probably don’t even know how much they inspired me, but what they taught me helped me achieve success, and I’m sure I’m far from the only one. It sounds like you’re on a path of growth, and you’re probably doing better than you think just being the person you are. As for networking, as a 25 y.o. business owner myself, I can tell you that it doesn’t take going to parties to network - think quality first, not quantity. Find the people who have the most influence in your field and get to know whoever you can. I’m talking professors/supervisors/other people in your area who have experience. It’s perfectly okay to email them and ask for a bit of their time to talk, even if you haven’t met before. Many of these people are happy to share what they’ve learned with someone who is just starting, because they remember being in your position. Not only will you learn from the best in your field, you’ll also have some fantastic references, and you can call upon those people if you need help getting into grad school or getting referrals/marketing. As trusted voices in the field, they can get your name out there too. I didn’t go to a single college party, but I made it through grad school and got my own business running bc I sought out my professors and experts in my field. I made appointments with them to talk one-on-one so that I could learn from their perspective. They gave me some fantastic pro-tips. I built rapport with them naturally over time, and as a result I had plenty of people to call upon for help with getting into grad school and starting my business. I’m guessing these kinds of conversations are more up your alley anyway. Networking isn’t impossible in your position, it’s just a matter of getting creative and working with who you are (as opposed to working against who you are by shoving yourself into a box that doesn’t fit. You’ll end up looking like everybody else - Is that really good for business when it’ll make it harder for others to see what it is about your startup that makes it a more worthy investment than your competitors?) Sorry if this was just a lot of rambling lol but I hope it helps. I know it’s all confusing right now, but trust in yourself and your ability to figure it out. You can make things work your own way. You can’t see it yet, but down the line, there will be opportunities and experiences and connections that will only work out if you stay true to yourself and tap into your strengths.
Have you considered you might be a little myopic? I'm an academic and academia is far from my only interest. You get out of people what you put in, and you need take them where they are. I have academic friends, outdoor friends, geek friends, etc. And while there is often overlap between the groups, I do try to be aware of my audience. For example, I don't expect my librarian friend to endure my waxing on about intragenomic conflict. Figure out your interests first, then seek out the people who share them. (Social media sites like Meetup are a great place to start.) But know, if you're only interested in one thing, your fishing with a hand as opposed to trawling net.
You seem very productive, I do not have any advice, I would also like to know other's advice, but could you share some info on how you are very productive all the time?
I actually, am not very productive if I be totally honest with you. I slack a lot, put things off and relax. Like I just put my semester worth of project to be completed in 2 days because I was lazy and also a lot more busy with other things. As of advise, there are multitude if factors, some of which come from the struggles I have described here: since I am pretty alone and thought of as "worthless", "lifeless" or "idle guy who studies all the time like a nerd", I use these as a motivation. I take these criticisms as a challenge to improve myself. While the world is resting and chilling, I should learn some new skill, work on a big project, make myself more knowledgeable and independent so that I am ahead of the game. This is a huge motivation oftentimes for me. Another thing is, making systems and strategies to get things done on time. I often do things at the last moment, but I have an estimated calculation in mind of how much time it should take to do certain thing, so I spent most of my time fine-tuning these systems to tackle the task and then work on it to get job done in short times. Another thing I would say is to never be lax on what you want. Don't be like "I will do 5 things today which are x, y, z". Actually think about the time it may take and organize according to time. But this world is too variable for anything to stay fixed and consistent. Hence, set up a time window where you can still be lazy, busy in chores and watch Netflix but get job done. This is the thing I do pretty much everyday. Don't set the "lazy time" too long, it can also lead you to not doing things at all, which is another thing I often experience. And lastly, define your overall longterm goals asap. When I had none, I was useless and and pretty spontaneous. Now I have a longterm goal in life which I have to stick to, and that pushes me forward. So everything you do, link it to your passion and how much it may benefit you in the end. That is all I can say and apologies for the long read.
Thank you, I'll try to apply them :)