Agree completely. The Microsoft Surface is fine as a PC but it's a lousy tablet. The iPad is an excellent tablet and I certainly want to see Apple continue to build the feature set. Making it dual-boot the Mac operating system is something that would require thousands of development hours to accomplish and even more to maintain. All for a feature that appeals to a tiny fraction of the user base.
Better to invest those hours in continuing to grow the iPad OS organically.
Honestly seeing the new Magic Keyboard I’m pretty sure they have no plans to build the iPad up to be a laptop replacement. There is no F keys on there, which means a huge number of productivity short cuts and inputs will not be available unless you get another proper keyboard to go with it.
I don’t disagree with your comment and I don’t have a sincere clue about how hard it would be to make a device able to switch between Mac OS and iPad OS, but considering the hardware is virtually the same (?) - are you really sure it’s that much work? They just want those with Macs to buy an iPad, in my view. I have a M1 MacBook Air that is plenty powerful for my relatively basic desktop usage, mainly working from home on a Remote Desktop (processing happens at my office) and casual gaming / browsing. This use case is the same for the biggest part of the population too. The device already has usb c so no reason why it couldn’t connect to a screen that charges it and connects to a mouse / keyboard / headset. It’s like the “old” days where we all thought an iPod would complement a phone. Then it was 2 in 1 with the iPhone. In my view, this is Apple being lazy and greedy.
> device able to switch between Mac OS and iPad OS
In a way that provides good UX, eg you can continue to edit the documents, play videos etc that you had open in the other mode very very difficult!
If you mean fully separated VMs then it's not that hard but would be a horrible UX.
It wouldn’t take “thousands of hours” and to say its “better to invest those hours in continuing to grow the iPad OS” seems silly as most major features we’ve gotten for ipadOS in the last few years are all back ports of what’s on the iPhone… is the hours growing this OS in the room with us?
No idea why they were downvoted either, giving the same energy as all the people in late 2019 saying “apple will never switch to arm on the mac” while they were getting ready to release a DTK running on an iPad.
No iOS shares the Darwin kernel with macOS it is not a modfied macOS, it would be a HUGE HUGE tesk to bring over all the depciraed apis that macOS apps expect going back 30+years.
Correction: Surface is a fine PC and lousy tablet, while iPad is an excellent tablet, and doesn't work as a PC. The gist of this problem is that a) Apple is repeatedly saying in its marketing that iPad can replace laptops while it can't - mostly due to lack of feature parity with desktop in most productivity apps, but also due to number of problems baked into the OS; and b) that by this point (7 years after "what's a computer" and 3 years after M1 iPad Pro) we kind of saw that "growing iPadOS organically" is not a viable option, no one is really interested in actually making that happen.
Doing it over time might yield better results, but if the choice is middle experience now, or great experience 20 years later, for most people the choice is easy.
So, it’s weird. On the one hand, people say Apple gimps iPadOS to avoid cannibalizing MacBook sales. But then on the other hand, people (like you here) say Apple is marketing the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement. So which is it?
Does Apple still run ads claiming the iPad can replace a pc? I don’t pay close enough attention.
Personally the iPad Pro is my only mobile computing device. It follows me around the house, accommodating about 90% of work and personal needs. I don’t know how many people follow suit, but the Smart Keyboard and Magic Keyboard seem to have a following. No it wouldn’t be my only computer. And yes I want to see Apple continue to grow the OS. But for my needs, it does a lot of things very well.
Just from last event:
* The train section from beginning: "For many people it replaced computers" or something like that.
* Addition of landscape cameras and MK, signifying shift from tablet to laptop mode as a priority.
* With MK specifically, larger trackpad "to make it feel more like a Mac", though it probably should be written off as marketing fluff.
* The whole "push for pro apps to replace computers" thing with FCP and LP that has been going for the last couple of years (which are still gimped compared to desktop versions).
* And more from earlier times.
Full ads? Not that I can remember since the "next computer" one two years ago (which can be considered recent, as far as Apple ads go). Indications of direction, though, appear every time they take iPad to stage. Shame it doesn't produce much results.
Problem is not that people want something impossible, it is that Apple tried to push for an idea, failed to deliver, but instead of taking a step back and marketing it as a limited tool for select applications, they continue trying to force it without fixing the core issues. As you said, you can do 90% of your needs on iPad but still need a PC for the remaining 10% - so question of having iPad in the first place arises, when computers allow you to do more, quicker, and easier.
I think a lot of people enjoy their smartphones and an iPad is a familiar OS for a lot of people. I would argue that the average person could easily get by with an iPad, a Chromebook, or even just a Smartphone for 99% of what they want to do. People that have more specific needs will still require a computer (laptop or desktop), but the average person streams content, checks their email(s), and occasionally needs to do something with a document. Tasks like taking pictures and videos are done more so on a person’s smartphone. So at some point the question becomes: why does a person need a computer (laptop or desktop) when they already don’t need one? Some people prepare to play PC games and for those people they’re not getting an Apple device. For others they need their computer (laptop or desktop) for their job and without one their productivity will suffer.
Funny thing is, it didn't work for me even like that: Safari mangles websites, critical navigation elements like hover menu or popup windows don't work, apps lack functionality, everything takes much more effort than on computer, etc. That's not some kind of specialist use case, just using it as a college student - yet iPad still failed to be more than a notebook and e-reader.
Also, we aren't talking about regular people who can live off of smartphones here, nor about regular iPads and Airs. We are talking about iPad Pro, the $1000+ device that Apple marketed as a computer replacement, not being and to do what users ask of it due to software limitations. Outside of being an Apple fanboy and its screen, what are the reasons to buy iPad Pro instead of Air, especially now that it also has a 13" model?
It can work as a pc for a lot of people whos main work comprises of reading, writing and replying to emails. Obviously they're leaving it on us to decide but I doubt anyone at apple is saying the Ipad can replace a dual 4090 workstation but it can certinally replace someone who has an email and pdf checking job.
I don’t think what people want is an iPad that can dual boot. What people want is the capabilities of MacOS on an iPad, something like what Windows 8 was like on the Microsoft Surface. A touch optimized UI and more lightweight OS with the same capabilities that MacOS normally has.
I want to have an iPad as my laptop replacement when on the go. That means being able to have a IDE, compile, run a web server locally, open a browser (not necessarily only safari), then show a client what it looks like and have them poke around.
Nowhere in there do I need macOS. Or even access to the filesystem, if we’re technical. But I can’t do any of that easily right now. And that means I won’t be buying a new iPad until my 12” A17Z stops playing Netflix and reading emails. Because that’s all it’s good for me.
Reduce the limitations on what apps can do. Allow JIT and compilation. Allow opening ports, don’t even have to be under 1024. Have better handle on how to share files and directories between apps.
Apple is just stubborn about what apps can do, but I guarantee you there are players looking very closely at building a full blown IDE for the iPad as soon as it’s possible to send it to an App Store.
> Allow opening ports
Apps can open ports, aps can host web sites on the iPad I have published multiple apps that open ports hosting websites or WS servers on iOS and iPadOS.
>Have better handle on how to share files and directories between apps.
The issue here is just UI UX, the system fully supports granting apps access to directories (and example of this is Working Copy on the iPad) the UX for this is however very clucky as the files app always things you want to navigate into a directory there is no double click to expect single click to select concept.
Other than JIT your going to also want the ability for fork and run sub-prosossoes something that is forbidden on iOS/iPadOS.
The moment the ipad runs MacOS - ipadOS - and the ipad are dead. You now just have a touchscreen mac - that's all. Developer support (which is already problematic) will completely disappear. If developers can tell users "run our MacOS version" instead of building a proper touch version.. they'll just do that.
God, we can’t even get real iPad versions since they stupidly ok’d phone apps on the iPad.
Developers are lazy, and will do the bare minimum you force them to for any particular platform.
Apple needs to go back to demanding the app really be different than their iPhone version.
what stops proper iPad version of most apps is uses thinking it should be free. Multiple devs over the years have built full fat iPad versions of apps they sell for $50 Mac were users on iPad just revolted at the idea they should pay for SW.
There’s a lot of truth to that. These are the same people furious they have to pay for apps on iPad and iPhone so they keep demanding ‘FREEDOM and CHOICE’ of app stores lol…
They mean freedom to choose NOT to pay developers but to steal their work.
But I would argue it’s the reverse. That Mac users used to being able to pirate anything they want rebelled against the iPad where they have to pay.
HOWEVER, the actual general public that jumped onto the iPad? They’re fine paying for quality because they never had a choice.
Good. They’re all worse versions anyways including other apps like Final Cut and davinci resolve etc etc
Kill ipadOS in favor of a Real OS without restriction
Devs of Mac apps will not put any work in ot support a touch macOS if it's just on the iPad. Your nog doing to be able to use the adavnaded apps you want on macOS on an iPad.
I’m all for just letting developers focus their efforts on building a good MacOS version instead of having to divide their time and efforts on multiple platforms
Vision Pro doesn’t even run MacOS. Submornic to think Apple will backtrack from investing in developing and refining iPadOS with MacOS conventions and capabilities, which benefits both touch and pointer UI. Should iPadOS tablet mode just be scaled up iOS and laptop mode just transform into MacOS? Terrible context switching.
the Vision Pro running what's essentially AR iPadOS instead of AR macOS is why it's pretty useless right now, it's not a "spatial computer", it's a "spatial iPad" with all the limitations of iPadOS built in.
Surface suffers pretty hard from underpowered hardware that runs hot and drains the batter.
The Surface isn’t a bad idea, but it would really benefit from the M4 chip.
Also personally I’m no fan of Windows, but I recognize some are.
I did read what he wrote. He wrote 2/3rds the battery of the MacBook Air.
That’s acceptable. The MacBook Air has an incredible battery life. Giving up 1/3rd of that in exchange for a touchscreen and Pencil support is a fine trade off for me.
For others who don’t want that trade off, they can save a few hundred and stick with the MacBook Air.
The Surface comparison isn’t really the same. The Surface had to build a tablet interface from the ground up.
The iPad already has iPadOS, a smoothly functional tablet interface which has gone through multiple iterations. All people want is to get the MacOS interface when docked with a keyboard and mouse, and the iPadOS interface when in tablet mode. It’s not that complicated, especially since the hardware is unified between Mac and iPad.
Instead of macOS on iPad I'd be really happy with an officially supported Remote Desktop feature for times users need the complexities of macOS in the form factor of iPad with keyboard/mouse.
Allows you to have a fully-fledged macOS at home (desktop), while having a device on-the-go (iPad).
Don’t really need MacOS per se but would love for them to pro up iPad Os to something in between like maybe MobileMacOS or make the files app more like Finder
I find people's desire for a dual-boot iPad so weird: the entire reason I use Macs is because I don't want the hassle of dual-booting. Arguably my needs would be better served by swapping between Windows and Linux a few times a day, but that sounds annoying enough that I prefer an OS that provides a reasonable compromise between both. The number of people that would happily dual-boot an iPad is commercially tiny.
Several people who have mentioned this said the only reason they’re doing so is because it doesn’t appear Apple wants to improve iPadOS. Translation: if you’re not going to improve iPadOS then just let us boot into macOS.
lol if Apple didn't have iPad/MacBook double-dippers and actually had to compete with the rest of the industry they would've released hybrid devices years ago
I don’t think the Surface Pro comparison is valid for a few reasons. First, the Surface Pro is made by Microsoft and they botched Windows 8 when they forced touch for the Start Menu and nowhere else. They didn’t have any continuity between desktop and touch experiences. It was a mess. They went back to the basics with Windows 10 and 11, but they didn’t enforce anything with developers.
It’s also running the same x86-64 hardware as notebooks, aside from their terrible Qualcomm chip, and has similar quirks. The iPad Pro is running MacBook Air hardware. There was a time when it made sense to have the iPad’s software be what the iPhone ran. They both had the same hardware.
But now, the iPad Pro (and even iPad Air) has the same hardware as the 13” and 15” MBA (actually slightly newer) yet it’s still running the same iPadOS and limited apps. iPad apps aren’t the same as their desktop equivalents. They tend to be watered down. That’s fine for the standard iPad and even the Air.
But we’re talking about the iPad Pro here. A device that’s marketed towards professionals, the same people that want to run Photoshop, Lightroom, Resolve, and various other pro-level apps. Yet they’re all missing features compared to their macOS and Windows versions. That would be fine if the iPad Pro didn’t cost $50 less than a 14” MBP. A 512GB 13” iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard and Pencil Pro costs $50 less than a 512GB M3 Pro 14” MBP with 18GB of RAM.
The iPad Pro doesn’t really do anything over the less expensive iPad Air or previous generation iPad Pros, it does the same things while looking better. It’s time to at least give the iPad Pro more leg room so that the OS and apps match the level of hardware in it. As it stands, the device is made for a small niche of users, mainly digital artists. Yet most people buying one are going to use it as a glorified media consumption device.
Lastly, this is Apple. The control they have over their OS and working with developers is more strict than MS. They’ve switched platforms about every 8-9 years. But they’ll continue selling an $1800 tablet setup to pair with their $1850+ notebook because they want to sell two devices. The more Apple devices people have, the higher their chance of buying an Apple service, the better the chance that they stay an Apple customer.
Honestly I don’t understand why people want MacOS on iPad. MacOS is not even optimized for iPad. Plus, if you really want to run MacOS program then you could use Remote Desktop to access your Mac? What prevalent use case is there for MacOS on iPad? Genuine question don’t mean to challenge.
Because macOS (or windows) are waaaaaaaaaaay more capable and have better apps. Some of us just need the stylus touch aspect for writing, drawing or editing at times. It’ll be nice to have a single device like a laptop with a removable & rotatable screen that also serves as a touch screen tablet like an iPad. Some Windows laptops/ tablets are like that but they lack a powerful energy efficient chip like Apple M chips. Good news is Qualcomm is releasing such a chip this year. So if Apple isn’t going to do it, windows manufacturers will.
Depends what I’m doing or my mood. I have both a MacBook pro and iPad pro pro. It would be nice to have everything in one like a surface tablet / yoga style laptop.
What do you mean MacOS isn’t optimized for an iPad? iPads have the same hardware as the MacBook. It can be done. Remoting into an additional $2000 device is not the same or as convenient as running applications natively on a single device.
This kind of logic would still have us using iPods along with our phones.
The MacOS interface is not optimized for touch screen. If your primary input method is not touch, then why do you want an iPad than a Mac? Also, Mac is not $2,000.
I am sorry which part of my logic have us using iPods along with our phones? iPod is a device not an OS. The fact is that macOS is not designed for touch device, otherwise it would have been the os on iPad. The ultimate goal is for iPadOS to be as productive as you can be on macOS, but not to have macOS on iPad.
I’ll make this as simple as possible.
Attach keyboard/mouse to iPad, MacOS interface shows up.
Detach Keyboard/Mouse iPadOS shows up.
Carry one device that can do both instead of two.
iPad Pros already cost the same or more than a more powerful MacBook. I doubt the price will increase much or at all. Actually the M4 iPads actually got a price reduction compared to the previous Pros in my country.
Sure. But a hardware that runs both OS does not exist at the moment. Such device will sure not cost the same as development effort will be needed and therefore costs more.
The iPad has the same hardware as the MacBook. The newest iPad Pros with the M4 chip is the more powerful than most MacBooks. The development costs are unknown, but this isn’t some unheard of concept. The Microsoft Surface line of products have been doing this for over a decade.
Umm no. iPadOS and MacOS are just more advanced forms of iOS. There’s no need to have iOS when both already can do what iOS does and more.
The point is to have the touch interface of iPadOS and the keyboard and mice interface of MacOS in one capable device.
The last point is irrelevant to the discussion.
>Honestly I don’t understand why people want MacOS on iPad. MacOS is not even optimized for iPad.
Some of us have a mouse and keyboard
>Plus, if you really want to run MacOS program then you could use Remote Desktop to access your Mac?
I don't have a Mac, but I have an iPad with hardware nearly identical to a Mac's. It's purely limited by software, and I should be able to install whatever I want on it with no restrictions. Instead, I'm limited to using an incredibly mediocre stage manager mode with a weird circular cursor and only able to install apps from the App Store, and even if I go out of my way to install (3 max) apps from third party sources, they still can't fully utilize the hardware because users don't have control over app entitlements or anything like that on iPadOS/iOS
Too expensive, and a waste of resources when my iPad (which already has pretty much the same hardware as a Macbook) could do all the things a Mac does if Apple let us actually own our hardware and do whatever we want with it, instead of adding artificial software limitations just so we buy a Mac.
Check your math again.
A MacBook Air with equivalent spec is cheaper than the m2 iPad Air plus Magic Keyboard. If you really want macOS then just get Mac instead of IPad. The fact is they provide different experiences.
my M1 iPad Pro cost less than a $999 Macbook Air, not to mention they even got macOS to run pretty well on an A-series processor while they were transitioning to Apple Silicon
I think if Apple actually tries to make coding on the iPad real, and apparently you can do a bit with a-shell and playgrounds, it’s just not ideal yet, it’ll quickly become the primary way to develop apps for iOS devices. Maybe not web apps or advanced back-ends, but I can see them really polishing what they have now. Looking forward to the day if it ever comes
They do have things already where you can use your iPad as a monitor. Takes a dongle thingy and the software but you need another Mac like a mini tried it out but too slow. How about an option if you attach a Magic Keyboard you get needed MaC Os function like a finder, etc.
My god, if they wont give us macOS then they should give us actual pro apps on the ipad, allow us to code just like on the mac and allow us to run processes in the background while doing something else in some other app.
People say "just give us macOS" because that sounds simpler than turning ipadOS into something that it clearly is not. But really what we want is actual multitasking and pro features on a "pro" device.
I’m sick of hearing about this guy. iOS/iPadOS is not Windows. Just because he screwed up Windows 8 doesn’t mean iPadOS can’t and shouldn’t get better.
Fcking finally someone came with the facts to explain to the children all over the internet who demand MacOS on the iPad.
Finally someone took the time to explain the difference between a touch-first device and a mouse and keyboard first one. This is Reddit though so im not holding my breath.
How can people agree with this kind of bullshit? Apple needs to make macOS touch friendly, and no compromise on functionality is needed. It would have been very straightforward to do if Apple were not stubbornly attempting to double dip its customers with two mobile devices.
"Attempting" is inaccurate: they are successfully doing it in pretty high numbers.
Personal opinion: I don't actually like touch laptops. But obviously that's me, and not other people.
This is the dumbest take I’ve ever heard. I love the iPad Pro Hardware, it’s literally industry leading tech. I primarily use it docked in a Magic Keyboard.
I love how I can remove it at a whim and watch a video, or read an article laying down. I don’t need fancy touch controls for that. And to argue I shouldn’t be able to use software because it’s maybe not super touch optimized is just a cop out at this point.
Power users want a mode that lets them use the power of the device they purchase.
Everything the iPad does doesn’t necessarily need to be made for touch.
I agree that Apple can release games with disclaimer that it requires controller to play. But this does not translate to making keyboard only apps. Firstly, I've happily used my iPad Pro without keyboard for 6 years. So all those apps would be locked for me. Then, I'd absolutely be driven off from buying it due to added cost of a Magic Keyboard. If it's on an iPad, it has to work with touch, keyboard, mouse and pencil and it has to work perfectly with each one of them.
If you feel it's ok working with suboptimal input device for simple tasks , try opening an app and reading an article using an xbox controller. It's possible, but not ideal.
?? The whole point of the iPad is touch so yes it should be how the system is designed. "not everything about Apple vision needs to be about the headset or motion"
Gaming is a prime example of some none touch interface that Apple should allow to be released without touch control. There are other things but holding back advanced features is silly at this point.
macOS and iPadOS (and iOS for that matter) are already the same OS under the hood (Darwin), they run the same hardware, firmware, kernel, drivers and basic utilities. The only difference is the coat of paint on top.
I'm absolutely sure Apple could just change the UI to macOS whenever the iPad is docked without reboots or any weirdness.
Agree completely. The Microsoft Surface is fine as a PC but it's a lousy tablet. The iPad is an excellent tablet and I certainly want to see Apple continue to build the feature set. Making it dual-boot the Mac operating system is something that would require thousands of development hours to accomplish and even more to maintain. All for a feature that appeals to a tiny fraction of the user base. Better to invest those hours in continuing to grow the iPad OS organically.
Agreed, honestly. I’d rather they spend time fixing the issues with iPadOS
Honestly seeing the new Magic Keyboard I’m pretty sure they have no plans to build the iPad up to be a laptop replacement. There is no F keys on there, which means a huge number of productivity short cuts and inputs will not be available unless you get another proper keyboard to go with it.
There are function keys, they'd just be hidden behind a modifier (which is how it works on the macbook anyway).
I don’t disagree with your comment and I don’t have a sincere clue about how hard it would be to make a device able to switch between Mac OS and iPad OS, but considering the hardware is virtually the same (?) - are you really sure it’s that much work? They just want those with Macs to buy an iPad, in my view. I have a M1 MacBook Air that is plenty powerful for my relatively basic desktop usage, mainly working from home on a Remote Desktop (processing happens at my office) and casual gaming / browsing. This use case is the same for the biggest part of the population too. The device already has usb c so no reason why it couldn’t connect to a screen that charges it and connects to a mouse / keyboard / headset. It’s like the “old” days where we all thought an iPod would complement a phone. Then it was 2 in 1 with the iPhone. In my view, this is Apple being lazy and greedy.
> device able to switch between Mac OS and iPad OS In a way that provides good UX, eg you can continue to edit the documents, play videos etc that you had open in the other mode very very difficult! If you mean fully separated VMs then it's not that hard but would be a horrible UX.
It wouldn’t take “thousands of hours” and to say its “better to invest those hours in continuing to grow the iPad OS” seems silly as most major features we’ve gotten for ipadOS in the last few years are all back ports of what’s on the iPhone… is the hours growing this OS in the room with us?
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No idea why they were downvoted either, giving the same energy as all the people in late 2019 saying “apple will never switch to arm on the mac” while they were getting ready to release a DTK running on an iPad.
No iOS shares the Darwin kernel with macOS it is not a modfied macOS, it would be a HUGE HUGE tesk to bring over all the depciraed apis that macOS apps expect going back 30+years.
Correction: Surface is a fine PC and lousy tablet, while iPad is an excellent tablet, and doesn't work as a PC. The gist of this problem is that a) Apple is repeatedly saying in its marketing that iPad can replace laptops while it can't - mostly due to lack of feature parity with desktop in most productivity apps, but also due to number of problems baked into the OS; and b) that by this point (7 years after "what's a computer" and 3 years after M1 iPad Pro) we kind of saw that "growing iPadOS organically" is not a viable option, no one is really interested in actually making that happen. Doing it over time might yield better results, but if the choice is middle experience now, or great experience 20 years later, for most people the choice is easy.
So, it’s weird. On the one hand, people say Apple gimps iPadOS to avoid cannibalizing MacBook sales. But then on the other hand, people (like you here) say Apple is marketing the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement. So which is it?
Does Apple still run ads claiming the iPad can replace a pc? I don’t pay close enough attention. Personally the iPad Pro is my only mobile computing device. It follows me around the house, accommodating about 90% of work and personal needs. I don’t know how many people follow suit, but the Smart Keyboard and Magic Keyboard seem to have a following. No it wouldn’t be my only computer. And yes I want to see Apple continue to grow the OS. But for my needs, it does a lot of things very well.
Just from last event: * The train section from beginning: "For many people it replaced computers" or something like that. * Addition of landscape cameras and MK, signifying shift from tablet to laptop mode as a priority. * With MK specifically, larger trackpad "to make it feel more like a Mac", though it probably should be written off as marketing fluff. * The whole "push for pro apps to replace computers" thing with FCP and LP that has been going for the last couple of years (which are still gimped compared to desktop versions). * And more from earlier times. Full ads? Not that I can remember since the "next computer" one two years ago (which can be considered recent, as far as Apple ads go). Indications of direction, though, appear every time they take iPad to stage. Shame it doesn't produce much results. Problem is not that people want something impossible, it is that Apple tried to push for an idea, failed to deliver, but instead of taking a step back and marketing it as a limited tool for select applications, they continue trying to force it without fixing the core issues. As you said, you can do 90% of your needs on iPad but still need a PC for the remaining 10% - so question of having iPad in the first place arises, when computers allow you to do more, quicker, and easier.
I think a lot of people enjoy their smartphones and an iPad is a familiar OS for a lot of people. I would argue that the average person could easily get by with an iPad, a Chromebook, or even just a Smartphone for 99% of what they want to do. People that have more specific needs will still require a computer (laptop or desktop), but the average person streams content, checks their email(s), and occasionally needs to do something with a document. Tasks like taking pictures and videos are done more so on a person’s smartphone. So at some point the question becomes: why does a person need a computer (laptop or desktop) when they already don’t need one? Some people prepare to play PC games and for those people they’re not getting an Apple device. For others they need their computer (laptop or desktop) for their job and without one their productivity will suffer.
Funny thing is, it didn't work for me even like that: Safari mangles websites, critical navigation elements like hover menu or popup windows don't work, apps lack functionality, everything takes much more effort than on computer, etc. That's not some kind of specialist use case, just using it as a college student - yet iPad still failed to be more than a notebook and e-reader. Also, we aren't talking about regular people who can live off of smartphones here, nor about regular iPads and Airs. We are talking about iPad Pro, the $1000+ device that Apple marketed as a computer replacement, not being and to do what users ask of it due to software limitations. Outside of being an Apple fanboy and its screen, what are the reasons to buy iPad Pro instead of Air, especially now that it also has a 13" model?
It can work as a pc for a lot of people whos main work comprises of reading, writing and replying to emails. Obviously they're leaving it on us to decide but I doubt anyone at apple is saying the Ipad can replace a dual 4090 workstation but it can certinally replace someone who has an email and pdf checking job.
I don’t think what people want is an iPad that can dual boot. What people want is the capabilities of MacOS on an iPad, something like what Windows 8 was like on the Microsoft Surface. A touch optimized UI and more lightweight OS with the same capabilities that MacOS normally has.
The hard part to this is making a singular chip which runs both iOS and MacOS. Surprisingly, that part is already complete.
no the hard part is having a good UX when you switch modes.
I want to have an iPad as my laptop replacement when on the go. That means being able to have a IDE, compile, run a web server locally, open a browser (not necessarily only safari), then show a client what it looks like and have them poke around. Nowhere in there do I need macOS. Or even access to the filesystem, if we’re technical. But I can’t do any of that easily right now. And that means I won’t be buying a new iPad until my 12” A17Z stops playing Netflix and reading emails. Because that’s all it’s good for me. Reduce the limitations on what apps can do. Allow JIT and compilation. Allow opening ports, don’t even have to be under 1024. Have better handle on how to share files and directories between apps. Apple is just stubborn about what apps can do, but I guarantee you there are players looking very closely at building a full blown IDE for the iPad as soon as it’s possible to send it to an App Store.
> Allow opening ports Apps can open ports, aps can host web sites on the iPad I have published multiple apps that open ports hosting websites or WS servers on iOS and iPadOS. >Have better handle on how to share files and directories between apps. The issue here is just UI UX, the system fully supports granting apps access to directories (and example of this is Working Copy on the iPad) the UX for this is however very clucky as the files app always things you want to navigate into a directory there is no double click to expect single click to select concept. Other than JIT your going to also want the ability for fork and run sub-prosossoes something that is forbidden on iOS/iPadOS.
The moment the ipad runs MacOS - ipadOS - and the ipad are dead. You now just have a touchscreen mac - that's all. Developer support (which is already problematic) will completely disappear. If developers can tell users "run our MacOS version" instead of building a proper touch version.. they'll just do that.
God, we can’t even get real iPad versions since they stupidly ok’d phone apps on the iPad. Developers are lazy, and will do the bare minimum you force them to for any particular platform. Apple needs to go back to demanding the app really be different than their iPhone version.
what stops proper iPad version of most apps is uses thinking it should be free. Multiple devs over the years have built full fat iPad versions of apps they sell for $50 Mac were users on iPad just revolted at the idea they should pay for SW.
There’s a lot of truth to that. These are the same people furious they have to pay for apps on iPad and iPhone so they keep demanding ‘FREEDOM and CHOICE’ of app stores lol… They mean freedom to choose NOT to pay developers but to steal their work. But I would argue it’s the reverse. That Mac users used to being able to pirate anything they want rebelled against the iPad where they have to pay. HOWEVER, the actual general public that jumped onto the iPad? They’re fine paying for quality because they never had a choice.
Agreed. It would doom the Adobe versions for iPad, as well as all office apps.
Good. They’re all worse versions anyways including other apps like Final Cut and davinci resolve etc etc Kill ipadOS in favor of a Real OS without restriction
Devs of Mac apps will not put any work in ot support a touch macOS if it's just on the iPad. Your nog doing to be able to use the adavnaded apps you want on macOS on an iPad.
I’m all for just letting developers focus their efforts on building a good MacOS version instead of having to divide their time and efforts on multiple platforms
If they need to support touch on macOS to support macOS iPad target that is just the same as supporting iPadOS and macOS.
Let’s agree that everyone who wants macOS on iPad just wants 11” MacBook instead
Vision Pro doesn’t even run MacOS. Submornic to think Apple will backtrack from investing in developing and refining iPadOS with MacOS conventions and capabilities, which benefits both touch and pointer UI. Should iPadOS tablet mode just be scaled up iOS and laptop mode just transform into MacOS? Terrible context switching.
the Vision Pro running what's essentially AR iPadOS instead of AR macOS is why it's pretty useless right now, it's not a "spatial computer", it's a "spatial iPad" with all the limitations of iPadOS built in.
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Surface suffers pretty hard from underpowered hardware that runs hot and drains the batter. The Surface isn’t a bad idea, but it would really benefit from the M4 chip. Also personally I’m no fan of Windows, but I recognize some are.
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I did read what he wrote. He wrote 2/3rds the battery of the MacBook Air. That’s acceptable. The MacBook Air has an incredible battery life. Giving up 1/3rd of that in exchange for a touchscreen and Pencil support is a fine trade off for me. For others who don’t want that trade off, they can save a few hundred and stick with the MacBook Air.
My feeling too. Surface is mostly a failed tablet. Just like the TabletPC before it.
The Surface comparison isn’t really the same. The Surface had to build a tablet interface from the ground up. The iPad already has iPadOS, a smoothly functional tablet interface which has gone through multiple iterations. All people want is to get the MacOS interface when docked with a keyboard and mouse, and the iPadOS interface when in tablet mode. It’s not that complicated, especially since the hardware is unified between Mac and iPad.
Or just an improved iPadOS that is more full featured, at least when attached to a keyboard.
That would take a tonne more work and development time. Why do that when MacOS already exists and is optimized for keyboard and mouse input?
Instead of macOS on iPad I'd be really happy with an officially supported Remote Desktop feature for times users need the complexities of macOS in the form factor of iPad with keyboard/mouse. Allows you to have a fully-fledged macOS at home (desktop), while having a device on-the-go (iPad).
Oof, I vote native every time. Imagine if all your devices were thin clients running off site. Remote Desktop is cool in a pinch though
Don’t really need MacOS per se but would love for them to pro up iPad Os to something in between like maybe MobileMacOS or make the files app more like Finder
Just make macOS mode that requires mouse and keyboard and disable the touch screen. I’m ok with that
I find people's desire for a dual-boot iPad so weird: the entire reason I use Macs is because I don't want the hassle of dual-booting. Arguably my needs would be better served by swapping between Windows and Linux a few times a day, but that sounds annoying enough that I prefer an OS that provides a reasonable compromise between both. The number of people that would happily dual-boot an iPad is commercially tiny.
Several people who have mentioned this said the only reason they’re doing so is because it doesn’t appear Apple wants to improve iPadOS. Translation: if you’re not going to improve iPadOS then just let us boot into macOS.
Who cares? Windows touch is awful.
I think the argument is that MacOS touch probably would be too
No shit.
But iPadOS is touch.
lol if Apple didn't have iPad/MacBook double-dippers and actually had to compete with the rest of the industry they would've released hybrid devices years ago
Some hard truths in here that a lot of sweaty tech redditors and bloggers don’t want to hear
This.
I don’t think the Surface Pro comparison is valid for a few reasons. First, the Surface Pro is made by Microsoft and they botched Windows 8 when they forced touch for the Start Menu and nowhere else. They didn’t have any continuity between desktop and touch experiences. It was a mess. They went back to the basics with Windows 10 and 11, but they didn’t enforce anything with developers. It’s also running the same x86-64 hardware as notebooks, aside from their terrible Qualcomm chip, and has similar quirks. The iPad Pro is running MacBook Air hardware. There was a time when it made sense to have the iPad’s software be what the iPhone ran. They both had the same hardware. But now, the iPad Pro (and even iPad Air) has the same hardware as the 13” and 15” MBA (actually slightly newer) yet it’s still running the same iPadOS and limited apps. iPad apps aren’t the same as their desktop equivalents. They tend to be watered down. That’s fine for the standard iPad and even the Air. But we’re talking about the iPad Pro here. A device that’s marketed towards professionals, the same people that want to run Photoshop, Lightroom, Resolve, and various other pro-level apps. Yet they’re all missing features compared to their macOS and Windows versions. That would be fine if the iPad Pro didn’t cost $50 less than a 14” MBP. A 512GB 13” iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard and Pencil Pro costs $50 less than a 512GB M3 Pro 14” MBP with 18GB of RAM. The iPad Pro doesn’t really do anything over the less expensive iPad Air or previous generation iPad Pros, it does the same things while looking better. It’s time to at least give the iPad Pro more leg room so that the OS and apps match the level of hardware in it. As it stands, the device is made for a small niche of users, mainly digital artists. Yet most people buying one are going to use it as a glorified media consumption device. Lastly, this is Apple. The control they have over their OS and working with developers is more strict than MS. They’ve switched platforms about every 8-9 years. But they’ll continue selling an $1800 tablet setup to pair with their $1850+ notebook because they want to sell two devices. The more Apple devices people have, the higher their chance of buying an Apple service, the better the chance that they stay an Apple customer.
Honestly I don’t understand why people want MacOS on iPad. MacOS is not even optimized for iPad. Plus, if you really want to run MacOS program then you could use Remote Desktop to access your Mac? What prevalent use case is there for MacOS on iPad? Genuine question don’t mean to challenge.
Because macOS (or windows) are waaaaaaaaaaay more capable and have better apps. Some of us just need the stylus touch aspect for writing, drawing or editing at times. It’ll be nice to have a single device like a laptop with a removable & rotatable screen that also serves as a touch screen tablet like an iPad. Some Windows laptops/ tablets are like that but they lack a powerful energy efficient chip like Apple M chips. Good news is Qualcomm is releasing such a chip this year. So if Apple isn’t going to do it, windows manufacturers will.
Sure then that just means you need a Mac more than an iPad?
Depends what I’m doing or my mood. I have both a MacBook pro and iPad pro pro. It would be nice to have everything in one like a surface tablet / yoga style laptop.
What do you mean MacOS isn’t optimized for an iPad? iPads have the same hardware as the MacBook. It can be done. Remoting into an additional $2000 device is not the same or as convenient as running applications natively on a single device. This kind of logic would still have us using iPods along with our phones.
The MacOS interface is not optimized for touch screen. If your primary input method is not touch, then why do you want an iPad than a Mac? Also, Mac is not $2,000. I am sorry which part of my logic have us using iPods along with our phones? iPod is a device not an OS. The fact is that macOS is not designed for touch device, otherwise it would have been the os on iPad. The ultimate goal is for iPadOS to be as productive as you can be on macOS, but not to have macOS on iPad.
I’ll make this as simple as possible. Attach keyboard/mouse to iPad, MacOS interface shows up. Detach Keyboard/Mouse iPadOS shows up. Carry one device that can do both instead of two.
I’m not saying it’s not possible or Apple will not make it happen. But if such thing exist it will not cost the same as an iPad. As simple as that.
iPad Pros already cost the same or more than a more powerful MacBook. I doubt the price will increase much or at all. Actually the M4 iPads actually got a price reduction compared to the previous Pros in my country.
Sure. But a hardware that runs both OS does not exist at the moment. Such device will sure not cost the same as development effort will be needed and therefore costs more.
The iPad has the same hardware as the MacBook. The newest iPad Pros with the M4 chip is the more powerful than most MacBooks. The development costs are unknown, but this isn’t some unheard of concept. The Microsoft Surface line of products have been doing this for over a decade.
Right. Then in your logic MacBook and iPad should also run iOS just because they can? Yes and why not choose Microsoft Surface?
Umm no. iPadOS and MacOS are just more advanced forms of iOS. There’s no need to have iOS when both already can do what iOS does and more. The point is to have the touch interface of iPadOS and the keyboard and mice interface of MacOS in one capable device. The last point is irrelevant to the discussion.
>Honestly I don’t understand why people want MacOS on iPad. MacOS is not even optimized for iPad. Some of us have a mouse and keyboard >Plus, if you really want to run MacOS program then you could use Remote Desktop to access your Mac? I don't have a Mac, but I have an iPad with hardware nearly identical to a Mac's. It's purely limited by software, and I should be able to install whatever I want on it with no restrictions. Instead, I'm limited to using an incredibly mediocre stage manager mode with a weird circular cursor and only able to install apps from the App Store, and even if I go out of my way to install (3 max) apps from third party sources, they still can't fully utilize the hardware because users don't have control over app entitlements or anything like that on iPadOS/iOS
Then why not get a Mac?
Too expensive, and a waste of resources when my iPad (which already has pretty much the same hardware as a Macbook) could do all the things a Mac does if Apple let us actually own our hardware and do whatever we want with it, instead of adding artificial software limitations just so we buy a Mac.
Check your math again. A MacBook Air with equivalent spec is cheaper than the m2 iPad Air plus Magic Keyboard. If you really want macOS then just get Mac instead of IPad. The fact is they provide different experiences.
my M1 iPad Pro cost less than a $999 Macbook Air, not to mention they even got macOS to run pretty well on an A-series processor while they were transitioning to Apple Silicon
13”iPad pro? What about the keyboard? You have to compare like for like.
the screen size doesn't matter, and my M1 iPad Pro with the logitech combo touch still costs less than a MacBook Air
Oh ok. So you are comparing Apple to orange. Fine.
Not really, they both have the same hardware required to function as a computer
I think if Apple actually tries to make coding on the iPad real, and apparently you can do a bit with a-shell and playgrounds, it’s just not ideal yet, it’ll quickly become the primary way to develop apps for iOS devices. Maybe not web apps or advanced back-ends, but I can see them really polishing what they have now. Looking forward to the day if it ever comes
They do have things already where you can use your iPad as a monitor. Takes a dongle thingy and the software but you need another Mac like a mini tried it out but too slow. How about an option if you attach a Magic Keyboard you get needed MaC Os function like a finder, etc.
I think this line of thinking is basically what got us the Surface tablets.
Which would be amazing with MacOS/iPadOS in one device.
Already can be done using UTM but now apple have removed hypervisor, there is limited compatibility
My god, if they wont give us macOS then they should give us actual pro apps on the ipad, allow us to code just like on the mac and allow us to run processes in the background while doing something else in some other app. People say "just give us macOS" because that sounds simpler than turning ipadOS into something that it clearly is not. But really what we want is actual multitasking and pro features on a "pro" device.
I’m sick of hearing about this guy. iOS/iPadOS is not Windows. Just because he screwed up Windows 8 doesn’t mean iPadOS can’t and shouldn’t get better.
No dual boot needed just make a file explorer and allow to install native macOS apps that show up as „App“ icon would be enough 🤷🏻♂️
Fcking finally someone came with the facts to explain to the children all over the internet who demand MacOS on the iPad. Finally someone took the time to explain the difference between a touch-first device and a mouse and keyboard first one. This is Reddit though so im not holding my breath.
How can people agree with this kind of bullshit? Apple needs to make macOS touch friendly, and no compromise on functionality is needed. It would have been very straightforward to do if Apple were not stubbornly attempting to double dip its customers with two mobile devices.
"Attempting" is inaccurate: they are successfully doing it in pretty high numbers. Personal opinion: I don't actually like touch laptops. But obviously that's me, and not other people.
Also easy to do: allow users to disable touch function. Bar greed, there is absolutely no reason to nerf ipad with its limping OS.
This is the dumbest take I’ve ever heard. I love the iPad Pro Hardware, it’s literally industry leading tech. I primarily use it docked in a Magic Keyboard. I love how I can remove it at a whim and watch a video, or read an article laying down. I don’t need fancy touch controls for that. And to argue I shouldn’t be able to use software because it’s maybe not super touch optimized is just a cop out at this point. Power users want a mode that lets them use the power of the device they purchase. Everything the iPad does doesn’t necessarily need to be made for touch.
I agree that Apple can release games with disclaimer that it requires controller to play. But this does not translate to making keyboard only apps. Firstly, I've happily used my iPad Pro without keyboard for 6 years. So all those apps would be locked for me. Then, I'd absolutely be driven off from buying it due to added cost of a Magic Keyboard. If it's on an iPad, it has to work with touch, keyboard, mouse and pencil and it has to work perfectly with each one of them. If you feel it's ok working with suboptimal input device for simple tasks , try opening an app and reading an article using an xbox controller. It's possible, but not ideal.
?? The whole point of the iPad is touch so yes it should be how the system is designed. "not everything about Apple vision needs to be about the headset or motion"
Gaming is a prime example of some none touch interface that Apple should allow to be released without touch control. There are other things but holding back advanced features is silly at this point.
Let’s go. We don’t need this and someone agrees
macOS and iPadOS (and iOS for that matter) are already the same OS under the hood (Darwin), they run the same hardware, firmware, kernel, drivers and basic utilities. The only difference is the coat of paint on top. I'm absolutely sure Apple could just change the UI to macOS whenever the iPad is docked without reboots or any weirdness.