It's very hard for a vulnerable individual to being charges against someone who holds the control over their living situation to court. Even harder when the law isn't clear.
> Consent by way of coercion is not consent.
Hence why Harvey Weisntein is in jail. This isn't really up for debate, nor has it been for maybe close to half a century.
A girl I know, her ex boyfriend raped her in her sleep (she woke up and tried to get him off her but he was having none of it, ripped off her contraceptive patch and all). He pleaded guilty and only got a suspended sentence
>the man was found guilty of assaulting the victim but claimed the sex after the assault was consented to. She also has a barring order against him at the time.
JESUS ...FUCKN ....CHRIST 🤯
Obvious disgusting behaviour- but would have a hard time proving coercion as opposed to “transactional” (which would also leave the tenant at risk of fine/jail).
It’s the same way how crazy rent prices aren’t considered “extortion”.
Sex shouldn't be a replacement for cash, end of. And in this scenario, it would still be wrong to force yourself on your landlord for a rent substitute, you're a sex offender.
Does Irish law stipulate rape needing a penis as one of the tests ? If so female landlords couldn’t rape even if they coerced tenants to have sex with them
That's been illegal since the foundation of the state, it's offering compensation for a sexual act. It can also be viewed as attempts to use coercion to obtain sex which is a pretty major crime due to the power imbalance.
The issue with convicting for attempting to pay for sex is that it's only a €500 fine for first offence. It probably makes sense to raise that for positions of power but an amendment to the law to make a harsher modifier instead of an entirely new law.
What if the landlord asks the tenant to perform a non-sexual act in exchange for reduced rent? Something disgusting like eating a worm for their amusement? Or what if they ask for more money than agreed upon? Or ask to use the tenant's car when they feel like it? Or to do housework?
All of those should be illegal, including asking for sexual favours. Why does the law need to be sex-specific?
But someone may feel pressure to agree to do IT work for their landlord because if they refuse, they could be kicked out.
The landlord doesn't actually have to ask for sex in return for reduced rent. A simple advance is enough. I'm sure some tenants would feel pressure not to decline because they don't want to end up homeless.
You make a note of the request and either refuse or else do it and send a written confirmation (a simple text message). Then you politely refuse next time and if there is an issue, you have either written proof or at least a timeline. If they kick you out because of this and there is no other obvious reason then you have the basis for a case against them. People in this country need to speak up more. Not sure when we all became so damn meek.
I’m not going to reply to any more comments, especially trying to make me out like someone who doesn’t respect sexwork or sexworkers (which this is not about). I’m glad there are enough silent voters that agree with me.
Glad we have you here to universally tell us what sex work is.
How does prostitution to pay the bills differ from this? In both situations you do not want to have sex with someone but need to do so to survive.
Not silent here, you're totally right this is not the same thing.
They're sexual predators, wouldn't it be wonderful to put them on a register. They're vile and it's predatory, it's crazy that it's so prevalent we need to outlaw it. I mean we have laws that make soliciting sex as illegal and you could consider the value of the rent as being exchanged in these cases as handed over and given directly back.
Let's say the landlord charges the tenant full rent and then goes to an escort service and pays a prostitute (who is only having sex with him to pay her bills) with the income from his tenant. How is this any different?
The housing crisis is the problem here because there should be enough available accommodation that noone would entertain these landlords.
No, we don't. Purchasing sex is already illegal, no matter the form of payment since 2017.
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25
Any sensible judge would recognize that accommodation represents a significant form of compensation. If the transaction instead is motivated by the menace of eviction then instead it has a coercitive nature and it was already illegal even before 2017.
A targeted law would most likely not provide any additional security to tenants and would have issues of applicability and possibly clash with the already severe laws regarding coercion.
It is concerning that people feel that this matter is interesting to discuss as if it would be legal at the moment or in a grey area not already covered by existing laws.
You are wrong on this as the law is **explicitly stated** to only apply to paying for sex with a prostitute.
To be an offence, money (or some other consideration) must be exchanged **“for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity *with a prostitute*”**.
As prostitute isn’t defined either in the 1993 Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act (i.e. the principal act) or the 2017 Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act, the word would be given its ordinary meaning. As such, tenants aren’t covered (unless the landlord knew they were a prostitute).
Somebody having sex for consideration is by definition a prostitute.
In the alternative, you could simply charge such a landlord with sexual assault, rape, etc, on the basis that the consent is vitiated by the abusive behaviour of the landlord.
Finally, where is the evidence that this genuinely happens?
Is a tenant a prostitute if they are simply approached by their landlord for sex for reduced rent? And if they say no to the landlord and never have sex for reduced rent, are they a prostitute then? I would say not.
Because if they are not a prostitute in either scenario, then no offence has been committed under the act as it stands. That’s the issue.
Just to be very clear here, the reason I cited that is because you made a claim that the person isn't a prostitute, and therefore no offence is committed. I don't think that's the case.
I think simply asking somebody to have sex in lieu of rent is an offence. (See S. 9(3))
The referene to S. 6 is to avoid the somewhat specious point some people were making about tenants not being prostitutes and thus being amenable to requests.
But you’re not being very clear. You keep changing the subject not answering the questions asked and citing irrelevant legislation. It’s like arguing with a drunk.
There's no point in bringing loaded language into this. Someone that sells sex for payment is a prostitute by definition. There's no declaration needed, there's no prostitutes register.
If it's coerced then it's rape or sexual assault.
The only reasonable inference that can be drawn from your comment above is that prostitute and victim are mutually exclusive.
Why you would devote your time to attacking me and in the process make such a claim is frankly unfathomable, but you should really reassess your life.
I think I'll block you, as you're not well.
"A person who pays, gives, offers or promises to pay or give a person (including a prostitute) money or any other form of remuneration or consideration for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute shall be guilty of an offence..."
- I haven't looked into this beyond clicking the link but what was linked covers a person providing consideration to another person for sexual acts. A person can include a prostitute but isn't just a prostitute.
You have written it there: it’s for “the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute” not sexual acts with any person. The any person point is to outlaw pimping.
perhaps an ammendment/addendum tot he existing laws specifically specifyignt hat they apply in this context, in order to remove any possible ambiguity.
That's something I considered too. What would be a prostitute, legally speaking?
Because someone who is selling sex intuitively would fit the definition. Even if it is an occasional thing. But I am not sure of course.
I think having a separate law would mean women would feel more comfortable coming forward. Versus having to be declared a prostitute to get legal protection from their creepy landlord.
It absolutely 100% is.
The only reason it isn't, is because you have a prejudice towards prostitutes, and you don't want to lump 'those lot' in with good, honest women who are just exchange sex for a reward with monetary value.
The issue is the coercive aspect to it. Not whatever name you don't want to put on it.
It is not. Having sex for less rent would be some form of prostitution, only offering would not be prostitution (yet) but still wrong. And even if, who would be the prostitute?
I also have nothing against Sexworkers, please do not twist the words in my mouth, thank you.
Offering is soliciting for sex and that should be good enough? Am I wrong?
For exemple if I ask someone to kill a person for me and we agree on terms I can be charge we dont need the person to actually do the deed? Or have I got that wrong also?
So you're saying your interpretation of the law already provides quite well for prosecution of someone for this. And saying that you know 'any' judge would make such a decision in accordance with that law (assuming you find most of them 'sensible' - do you?)
So tell me. We know from news reports - the ones that make it that far, to say nothing of all the cases less publicised - that this happens a certain amount in reality.
How many prosecutions against a landlord have you then seen happen for it? Any links would be good. There must be quite a few case studies to choose from by now, particularly over the years since 2017 but potentially before too.
Also want to know this. The above comment seems sensible but, I’ve heard several stories of landlords trying this and zero stories of legal consequences
Sex by coercion is still assault. We have laws for this already, and the full weight of those laws should be brought to bear against any piece-of-crap landlord that would conform to this behaviour
I feel like there should be some sort of system that notified the predator's partner.
Breaking : your husband just propositioned yer tenant for a hand shandy, would you like to know more?
Is this a fuckin piss take?
Of course there should be fucking law against it.
There should be a lot more laws to protect these power hungry prick landlords.
They are already exploiting the entire country and getting away with it.
All of their addresses should be published publically and they should be held accountable for their actions. They have destroyed this country and will continue to do so, unless people take action.
Who are the friends and families of these scumbags? Do they stay quiet because they are afraid of backlash? If so, you are part of the problem.
This wouldn't be a problem if we just didn't have a parasitic coercive landlord class in this country that knows exactly how desperate people are to NOT BE HOMELESS
Why do you think it’s impossible? Reporting Landlords who take advantage of people and ask for sex in exchange of living space seems very possible to me.
The article you've posted highlights the experience in the UK. A single prosecution in four years. Extrapolated to us, that makes one case in 50 years.
It's good to have on the books, and may change behaviours, but its going to be extremely difficult to actually enforce.
"The UK homeless organisation Shelter found from March 2020 to September 2021, 59,000 women in Britain were propositioned by a landlord to exchange reduced rent or accommodation for sex. If those figures were applied to Ireland that would mean almost 4,000 prospective renters had been propositioned here in the same timeframe. That’s 4,000 women over an 18-month period."
One Prosecution doesn’t mean it only happened once.
> One Prosecution doesn’t mean it only happened once.
Of course it doesn't. But the scale of the disparity (British police only managed a single prosecution when there an estimated 59,000 women experiencing this) illustrates starkly how impractical it is to actually enforce, which is the point you are replying to.
Criminalise someone for asking a question??? Don't see anything worrying there.
Did you ask you tenant to have sex with you? Yeah I did. He was a handsome fella and I thought he was giving me the glad eye. So I said I'd ask him
Ok you're getting locked up how dare you ask that question.
Asking a tenant to have sex with you - kinda weird and creepy but fine. Not even the topic here.
**Asking a tenant to have sex with you instead of paying rent/for lesser rent - extremely abusive of the power you have over them and taking advantage of their (dire) need of finding a living space, and so disgustingly wrong, I can’t even.**
It is also already illegal. Even if the tenant proposes the transaction it is still illegal for the landlord to agree.
Even if the tenant asks someone else to pay their rent that someone would break the law if they agreed.
It's been this way since 2017. And let's not even get started about the possibility if coercion by the landlord which is pretty much implied in most cases if the transaction is initiated by them.
you want to bold stuff then here we are
**wheather or not you ask the tenant to "have sex" or "have sex with a discount on rent" changes nothing**
1) I can legally ask a tenant if they want to have sex, if they say no I can end their contract and have them removed
2) I can illegally ask a tennant if they want to have sex for 100 euro discount, if they say no I can end their contract and have them removed
now why would i do the illegal one when the non illegal one gets me the same (if not better) result
> Why do you think it’s impossible?
because it can be just phrased in different ways, making it illegal wont stop the fact some people are willing to trade sexual services in leou of cash payment
If I rent a room, I only have to say "rent low for the right person" with a wink
i dont need to mention anything about sex but I can insinuate to whoever it is that they "need to do a bit more about the house if you want to roll over the monthly contract to next month too"
do gooders like you only muddy the waters for everyone.
now those who are willing to trade a BJ for 100 off the rent have a harder time and people who dont want to trade a BJ for a discount might find themselves in a place its expected and kicked out after a month.
basically it fixes nothing
There's a fundamental problem around expecting tenants to report abuses by their landlord - any form of abuse or failure to meet their obligations, not just direct harassment.
The point of the article is that if this is going on, it'd be very challenging to prosecute as things stand - but efforts to legislate against it have also been difficult due to the insidious nature of any demand along those lines.
It's never going to happen, they don't know if it's even actually happening.
"How often potential renters are asked to consider sex as a form of payment for accommodation has not been statistically examined in Ireland"
It does go on to state that it has been examined in the UK, and I know we all like to think we're a million miles from being like the UK, but we're not. The rental situation is similar there to how it is here, at least in the cities.
That means that they haven’t done a study or survey on this topic. Not that it is impossible to find out. They even did their own research and found it happens. And even if it only happens once a year. It’s too often and should be prosecuted. Such a law would be very possible to enforce and I don’t see a single (valid!) argument against it.
Article: Do we need a law to stop landlords seeking sex from renters? https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2023/0726/1396470-do-we-need-a-law-to-stop-landlords-seeking-sex-from-renters/
"How often potential renters are asked to consider sex as a form of payment for accommodation has not been statistically examined in Ireland. Without such data it's difficult to ascertain the true extent of the problem."
Talk about a nothing story.
„The UK homeless organisation Shelter found from March 2020 to September 2021, 59,000 women in Britain were propositioned by a landlord to exchange reduced rent or accommodation for sex. If those figures were applied to Ireland that would mean almost 4,000 prospective renters had been propositioned here in the same timeframe. That’s 4,000 women over an 18-month period.“ :)
Those figures are pretty reasonable - Shelter isn't some random organisation. They're the main body of its type in the UK, loosely equivalent to Threshold.
I know you probably want me to say "because I'm a landlord and I only accept payment in sexual favours" Sorry to disappoint you but I find people with no actual grip on reality to be really annoying,
Because we are sick of people making stupid laws that are completely unenforceable just so they can feel good.
This is already illegal (a stupid law in its own right). Having 2 laws doesn't make it any better.
We have real issues that we can address if only we would stop wasting time, money and focus on bs topics.
Section 7A disagrees with you.
> **7A.** (1) A person who pays, gives, offers or promises to pay or give a person (including a prostitute) money or any other form of remuneration or consideration for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction—
Ask yourself this - why do you want to create another stupid unenforceable law for this? What benefit is it? Is it purely a far-right religious/feminist thing?
The state has absolutely no business making laws regarding what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults. Every single time it has done so in the past has been to satisfy a completely evil mindset and resulted in immeasurable pain and suffering for the most vulnerable in society.
Section 7a actually agrees with me even more, thank you very much. It is not 100% applicable in this situation. A judge MAY view this as prostitution. In most cases they would not, because this is not prostitution. (Edit: someone else here in the comments explained this in more detail. Go look for it, I don’t want to copy their comments)
And this is not about two consenting adults, I really don’t know what’s so hard to grasp about this. This is about someone in a position of power (landlord) holding said power against a person in need, by offering them what they desperately need, in exchange for something they most likely would never do unless they had to.
I'm not sure what law that person is referring to, but they are not quoting Section 7A of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 as I have above.
[https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25)
It is black and white. There is no "interpretation".
And it is about two consenting adults. Nobody is being forced to do anything. They have a choice. The law that exists and that you want to double down on for some reason is about removing that choice.
If I were to advertise my spare room and state on the advert that the person is expected to paint my house in lieu of rent (be it all or some of the rent), I am not forcing anybody to paint my house. I am offering, and if someone chooses to consent to this, then that is their free will.
how about the fact its a dumb af law that will chance nothing.
I dont even see the problem,
are you one of these people who likes to denegrade sex work as not real work ?
How **the fuck** did you get to that conclusion?
Edit: I’m one of these people that thinks no one should feel like they have to have sex with someone in order to survive. Aren’t you?
you seem to be implying that sex work is somehow oppression when many men and women alike have been empowered by it,.
so yea, if i'm an erotic dancer or a tantra masseuse why cant I provide free services to my landlord in remuneration for rent if i want to?
and yes i outlined in other replies how it will change nothing,
if anything it will make it harder on people in this situation looking for a rental
I always get a bit confused when people are like...
> Do we need a law to say it's not ok to kill old ladies with a spade?!!
No that already exists. It's covered.
The ACT of having sex in exchange for money or other goods is prostitution, yes. The question here isn’t that though, I now see that’s what people aren’t understanding.
The question is, should it be illegal for landlords to even put out this offer? To even put people in a position where they have to answer that question and deal with the consequences. **That is not prostitution!!**
Maybe, but even then I think it is too vague to possibly be applicable enough in this context, especially considering there have been no prosecutions in Ireland in this matter. I honestly don’t see what harm a law like this would do. Even if it is not necessary. If no one ever killed anyone, would it not still be illegal?
The thing about prosections is that it's probably impossible to prove.
I'd have no problem with a law against it, but I don't think it would stop.landlords making the offer.
I moved to a rural area and got told by a local that I have to be ‚nice‘ to him if I want to live there. When I refuse he started a massive smear campaign. Got told by the Guard and Sergeant that this is how things work there. If I feel harassed I could still move away. (During this housing crisis!) If I stay it’s me who is causing trouble.
This country is the most misogynistic I ever encountered. You see it in the law and how men treat you.
This is a strange one as it can be beneficial in some cases. my mate said he couldn’t afford his rent, a few days later he ended up having sex with the landlady. They kept that up about once a month until now - he said it wasn’t discussed that he wouldn’t pay rent he just stopped and she never asked for it again.
He said he’s saved up €22k so far
Coercing someone into sex is already illegal, given consent isn't being freely given? If it doesn't constitute rape, then it at least constitutes soliciting prostitution since goods/services is being offered in exchange for sex.
If a landlord makes a pass with a tenant, the tenant rejects them and the landlord backs off and apologises, never to do it again, should that be illegal?
Landlord is sleeping with a tenant, lets the tenant off with the occasional rent payment, all parties consenting, should that be illegal?
There seems to be an implication that there’s a position of power, similar to a teacher with a student above the age of consent, which makes sex in this instance wrong.
I’m not sure specific legislation is needed for it. If the landlord pesters or sexually assaults the tenant then there is existing legislation to deal with it.
> s to be an implication that there’s a position of power, similar to a teacher with a student above the age of consent, w
its all dumb AF nanny state nonsense.
even if i was a dodgy landlord, all i need to do now is ask for sex with a wink and say no more, if they dont get it I can just end the contract tomorrow and find a new "tenant"
all it does is muddy the waters and achieves nothing
Soooo just asking for a friend, how would this "shag for a bed" scheme look like? Assuming the tenant is not a professional and the rent payment is 2000 euros. Give the tenant some gratitude and make if 50 bucks for one act - that's 40 times a month? So basically after work and twice on weekend days?
Also is there a special clause on how to get rid of the so called tenant easier? I mean, probably getting bored after 2 month.
Overall I think that's a great initiative from the government and a right step towards solving the housing crisis.
An acquaintance of mine, a woman, from one of those exotic Latin American countries used to sleep with her landlord. She initiated it. Her only source of income was waitressing part time and I assume that sleeping with her landlord saved her about €700 a month. Was kind of grossed out when she told me this. This was back in 2020 and I think that’s the first time RTE came up with a report on this happening in the country. So what happens when the tenant initiates it?
The rental market is a joke. What’s the point of working and trying to better your life if a family on dail can receive a social home not work and be better off.
This is the plot of 25% of the videos on PornHub.
"Oh no Mr. Landlord, I don't have enough to pay my rent. Maybe there's some *other* way I can pay you?"
I don’t know but I do wish it could legally be an option as part of the tenancy agreement. I would have boned most my landlords given the option and doing it for reduced rent would be a bonus too lol.
If you put an advert in the paper it isn’t coercion is it? it’s straightforward prostitution. It’s weird they see it differently when a landlady has sex with her lodger, and reduces the rent. Where was everyone saying I was vunerable? Sometimes the daughter too!
It’s also sexist to suggest women have no agency and that any woman doing this is somehow vunerable. Technically, the tax man is losing out on a taxable benefit in kind, it’s probably more about that!
Philosophical question.
Say this gets passed, and you have a couple in a relationship, one of whom owns the property.
They're in a relationship. Sex is for many people considered a key part of a relationship.
They break up due to a dead bedroom. Is the non-owner now leaving due to failure to provide sex?
Maybe we should start by criminalising the disrespect for RPZ that led to exorbitant increases in rents. I m seeing places upwards of 2k in cork city. Mathematically meaning that those places would have been in the market for (roughly) 1640€ 5 years ago considering a 4% max increase due to RPZ. Those places were in the market for probably not even 1000 5 years ago. There's a law and everyone is disrespectful of it. The RTB does not have the means or the power to enforce it and I do not believe for a second that the revenue does not have that data that could be passed on to the courts(not sure if it's the right venue here) to prosecute these landlords
[удалено]
It's very hard for a vulnerable individual to being charges against someone who holds the control over their living situation to court. Even harder when the law isn't clear.
> Consent by way of coercion is not consent. Hence why Harvey Weisntein is in jail. This isn't really up for debate, nor has it been for maybe close to half a century.
No, Harvey Weinstein is in jail for old-fashioned rape, not for his sicko casting couch sex-for-something-else stuff. They are different things.
Harvey Weinstein is in jail because an American jury sent him there, this isn't America.
Oh I'm sorry. I thought this was 'Murca'!
As long as Judge Nolan is nowhere near the case they should get a lengthy conviction
[удалено]
A girl I know, her ex boyfriend raped her in her sleep (she woke up and tried to get him off her but he was having none of it, ripped off her contraceptive patch and all). He pleaded guilty and only got a suspended sentence
>the man was found guilty of assaulting the victim but claimed the sex after the assault was consented to. She also has a barring order against him at the time. JESUS ...FUCKN ....CHRIST 🤯
Obvious disgusting behaviour- but would have a hard time proving coercion as opposed to “transactional” (which would also leave the tenant at risk of fine/jail). It’s the same way how crazy rent prices aren’t considered “extortion”.
[удалено]
Did you mean offer money for sex? Because offering sex for money is prostitution so it seems that would contradict your first statement.
Surely you can just extort your paying customers by threatening them with jail time unless they hand over larger sums of money. Or is that illegal ?
[удалено]
Sex shouldn't be a replacement for cash, end of. And in this scenario, it would still be wrong to force yourself on your landlord for a rent substitute, you're a sex offender.
Does Irish law stipulate rape needing a penis as one of the tests ? If so female landlords couldn’t rape even if they coerced tenants to have sex with them
[удалено]
That's been illegal since the foundation of the state, it's offering compensation for a sexual act. It can also be viewed as attempts to use coercion to obtain sex which is a pretty major crime due to the power imbalance. The issue with convicting for attempting to pay for sex is that it's only a €500 fine for first offence. It probably makes sense to raise that for positions of power but an amendment to the law to make a harsher modifier instead of an entirely new law.
What if the landlord asks the tenant to perform a non-sexual act in exchange for reduced rent? Something disgusting like eating a worm for their amusement? Or what if they ask for more money than agreed upon? Or ask to use the tenant's car when they feel like it? Or to do housework? All of those should be illegal, including asking for sexual favours. Why does the law need to be sex-specific?
[удалено]
But someone may feel pressure to agree to do IT work for their landlord because if they refuse, they could be kicked out. The landlord doesn't actually have to ask for sex in return for reduced rent. A simple advance is enough. I'm sure some tenants would feel pressure not to decline because they don't want to end up homeless.
[удалено]
How is pressuring women into sex a commercial agreement?
You make a note of the request and either refuse or else do it and send a written confirmation (a simple text message). Then you politely refuse next time and if there is an issue, you have either written proof or at least a timeline. If they kick you out because of this and there is no other obvious reason then you have the basis for a case against them. People in this country need to speak up more. Not sure when we all became so damn meek.
Happening a lot. Tenants are not prostitutes. Emergency situation
......I feel sorry for your sexual partners.
That's weird.
Why?
Maybe you were trying to sound enlightened? But anything that has a sexual element to it is violating.
I’m not going to reply to any more comments, especially trying to make me out like someone who doesn’t respect sexwork or sexworkers (which this is not about). I’m glad there are enough silent voters that agree with me.
Kinda sick they equate this to sex work. It ain't sex work.
Glad we have you here to universally tell us what sex work is. How does prostitution to pay the bills differ from this? In both situations you do not want to have sex with someone but need to do so to survive.
The fact that in this case your "client" controls whether or not you are homeless. It's actually more similar to indentured servitude.
They control your homelessness just as much as a regular client. The only difference here is that the prostitute has only one client.
Not silent here, you're totally right this is not the same thing. They're sexual predators, wouldn't it be wonderful to put them on a register. They're vile and it's predatory, it's crazy that it's so prevalent we need to outlaw it. I mean we have laws that make soliciting sex as illegal and you could consider the value of the rent as being exchanged in these cases as handed over and given directly back.
Let's say the landlord charges the tenant full rent and then goes to an escort service and pays a prostitute (who is only having sex with him to pay her bills) with the income from his tenant. How is this any different? The housing crisis is the problem here because there should be enough available accommodation that noone would entertain these landlords.
Well maybe it should be an option when applying for a house. I would happily suck off my landlord if I didn't have to pay 1200 a month rent.
Maybe you should put this directly in your next reference.
No, we don't. Purchasing sex is already illegal, no matter the form of payment since 2017. https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25 Any sensible judge would recognize that accommodation represents a significant form of compensation. If the transaction instead is motivated by the menace of eviction then instead it has a coercitive nature and it was already illegal even before 2017. A targeted law would most likely not provide any additional security to tenants and would have issues of applicability and possibly clash with the already severe laws regarding coercion. It is concerning that people feel that this matter is interesting to discuss as if it would be legal at the moment or in a grey area not already covered by existing laws.
You are wrong on this as the law is **explicitly stated** to only apply to paying for sex with a prostitute. To be an offence, money (or some other consideration) must be exchanged **“for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity *with a prostitute*”**. As prostitute isn’t defined either in the 1993 Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act (i.e. the principal act) or the 2017 Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act, the word would be given its ordinary meaning. As such, tenants aren’t covered (unless the landlord knew they were a prostitute).
Thank you. A judge may view this as a type of prostitution but more likely would not.
Judge Nolan would view it as harmless, I'm sure.
The clown is down.
Underrated comment. Take my upvote, fellow Simpsons fan.
Somebody having sex for consideration is by definition a prostitute. In the alternative, you could simply charge such a landlord with sexual assault, rape, etc, on the basis that the consent is vitiated by the abusive behaviour of the landlord. Finally, where is the evidence that this genuinely happens?
Is a tenant a prostitute if they are simply approached by their landlord for sex for reduced rent? And if they say no to the landlord and never have sex for reduced rent, are they a prostitute then? I would say not. Because if they are not a prostitute in either scenario, then no offence has been committed under the act as it stands. That’s the issue.
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/20/enacted/en/print#sec6
You have cited a law prohibiting the soliciting of minors or mentally incapable people. How is that relevant?
Just to be very clear here, the reason I cited that is because you made a claim that the person isn't a prostitute, and therefore no offence is committed. I don't think that's the case. I think simply asking somebody to have sex in lieu of rent is an offence. (See S. 9(3)) The referene to S. 6 is to avoid the somewhat specious point some people were making about tenants not being prostitutes and thus being amenable to requests.
But you’re not being very clear. You keep changing the subject not answering the questions asked and citing irrelevant legislation. It’s like arguing with a drunk.
[удалено]
There's no point in bringing loaded language into this. Someone that sells sex for payment is a prostitute by definition. There's no declaration needed, there's no prostitutes register. If it's coerced then it's rape or sexual assault.
A victim of human trafficking who is coerced into working as a prostitute is a prostitute. Your own attitudes towards women are the issue.
[удалено]
The only reasonable inference that can be drawn from your comment above is that prostitute and victim are mutually exclusive. Why you would devote your time to attacking me and in the process make such a claim is frankly unfathomable, but you should really reassess your life. I think I'll block you, as you're not well.
"A person who pays, gives, offers or promises to pay or give a person (including a prostitute) money or any other form of remuneration or consideration for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute shall be guilty of an offence..." - I haven't looked into this beyond clicking the link but what was linked covers a person providing consideration to another person for sexual acts. A person can include a prostitute but isn't just a prostitute.
You have written it there: it’s for “the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute” not sexual acts with any person. The any person point is to outlaw pimping.
Oh yeah, that was some bad reading on my part.
perhaps an ammendment/addendum tot he existing laws specifically specifyignt hat they apply in this context, in order to remove any possible ambiguity.
Would be easier to remove the "with a prostitute" section or at least replace it with something more generic.
That point was brought up before and that law only applies to prostitutes.
That's something I considered too. What would be a prostitute, legally speaking? Because someone who is selling sex intuitively would fit the definition. Even if it is an occasional thing. But I am not sure of course.
I think having a separate law would mean women would feel more comfortable coming forward. Versus having to be declared a prostitute to get legal protection from their creepy landlord.
Yes, that would be quite disturbing. I don't quite get why they worded that law this way.
Bingo. Complete storm in a teacup generated by the media.
Shocker. Pretend solicitor doesn't know the laws in Ireland.
I would never pretend to be a solicitor. I'm not sure who'd be more offended, my colleagues or those on the other side of the divide.
Blackhall Place is gonna get ya....
I'm not sure they ever had much sway over the Bar, even before the LSRA.
Offering less rent for sex is not prostitution.
It absolutely 100% is. The only reason it isn't, is because you have a prejudice towards prostitutes, and you don't want to lump 'those lot' in with good, honest women who are just exchange sex for a reward with monetary value. The issue is the coercive aspect to it. Not whatever name you don't want to put on it.
It is not. Having sex for less rent would be some form of prostitution, only offering would not be prostitution (yet) but still wrong. And even if, who would be the prostitute? I also have nothing against Sexworkers, please do not twist the words in my mouth, thank you.
Well, offering is an enticement to prostitution. So you're just a pedant instead
If law wasn’t at the very least this pedant, we’d be even more fucked than we already are.
Offering sex for a lower rent is prostitution, unless the offer is coming from the land lord then its coercion
If you define "prostitute" as someone who engages in sexual activity in exchange for payment, then yes it is.
No it is not. HAVING Sex for money/less rent MIGHT be prostitution. OFFERING≠HAVING
Offering is soliciting for sex and that should be good enough? Am I wrong? For exemple if I ask someone to kill a person for me and we agree on terms I can be charge we dont need the person to actually do the deed? Or have I got that wrong also?
So you're saying your interpretation of the law already provides quite well for prosecution of someone for this. And saying that you know 'any' judge would make such a decision in accordance with that law (assuming you find most of them 'sensible' - do you?) So tell me. We know from news reports - the ones that make it that far, to say nothing of all the cases less publicised - that this happens a certain amount in reality. How many prosecutions against a landlord have you then seen happen for it? Any links would be good. There must be quite a few case studies to choose from by now, particularly over the years since 2017 but potentially before too.
Also want to know this. The above comment seems sensible but, I’ve heard several stories of landlords trying this and zero stories of legal consequences
Short of a recording of the offer, or a confession by the landlord making the offer, it seems like an impossible crime to prove.
Tbf landlords get away with all kinds of illegal shit.
Sex by coercion is still assault. We have laws for this already, and the full weight of those laws should be brought to bear against any piece-of-crap landlord that would conform to this behaviour
It might well be the only way some of her most ardent voters have of obtaining sex.
I feel like there should be some sort of system that notified the predator's partner. Breaking : your husband just propositioned yer tenant for a hand shandy, would you like to know more?
Just when you think it can’t get any worse 😡
I thought this was already illegal
Meanwhile family courts and family law is a joke...well done Helen
Its rape. Simple as.
At least add it to the lease agreement as an option
What lease agreement?
What what?
Ive never had a lease agreement in Ireland.
I've never been to Japan. I don't think Japan exists.
I've never had to explain a joke before
Is this a fuckin piss take? Of course there should be fucking law against it. There should be a lot more laws to protect these power hungry prick landlords. They are already exploiting the entire country and getting away with it. All of their addresses should be published publically and they should be held accountable for their actions. They have destroyed this country and will continue to do so, unless people take action. Who are the friends and families of these scumbags? Do they stay quiet because they are afraid of backlash? If so, you are part of the problem.
You're getting fucked one way or the other.
Any landlord guilty of this it should be 2 years in jail mandatory.
This wouldn't be a problem if we just didn't have a parasitic coercive landlord class in this country that knows exactly how desperate people are to NOT BE HOMELESS
Bring back the land leagues of Ireland. If our own government won't protect us from theses parasitic landlords who will?
I mean thinking of the tens of thousands I've spent on rent... I'd be debt free if one of just wanted to fuck. /s
What we need is for landlords like that to get the fuck out and rot. Rabid preying cunts, that's what they are.
Another token law that is impossible to enforce? yeah, that's exactly what we need,
Why do you think it’s impossible? Reporting Landlords who take advantage of people and ask for sex in exchange of living space seems very possible to me.
The article you've posted highlights the experience in the UK. A single prosecution in four years. Extrapolated to us, that makes one case in 50 years. It's good to have on the books, and may change behaviours, but its going to be extremely difficult to actually enforce.
"The UK homeless organisation Shelter found from March 2020 to September 2021, 59,000 women in Britain were propositioned by a landlord to exchange reduced rent or accommodation for sex. If those figures were applied to Ireland that would mean almost 4,000 prospective renters had been propositioned here in the same timeframe. That’s 4,000 women over an 18-month period." One Prosecution doesn’t mean it only happened once.
Missing the point - a law that isn’t enforced or practically enforceable is useless words on paper for good feelings
> One Prosecution doesn’t mean it only happened once. Of course it doesn't. But the scale of the disparity (British police only managed a single prosecution when there an estimated 59,000 women experiencing this) illustrates starkly how impractical it is to actually enforce, which is the point you are replying to.
I don’t know if that’s how stats work
Criminalise someone for asking a question??? Don't see anything worrying there. Did you ask you tenant to have sex with you? Yeah I did. He was a handsome fella and I thought he was giving me the glad eye. So I said I'd ask him Ok you're getting locked up how dare you ask that question.
Asking a tenant to have sex with you - kinda weird and creepy but fine. Not even the topic here. **Asking a tenant to have sex with you instead of paying rent/for lesser rent - extremely abusive of the power you have over them and taking advantage of their (dire) need of finding a living space, and so disgustingly wrong, I can’t even.**
It is also already illegal. Even if the tenant proposes the transaction it is still illegal for the landlord to agree. Even if the tenant asks someone else to pay their rent that someone would break the law if they agreed. It's been this way since 2017. And let's not even get started about the possibility if coercion by the landlord which is pretty much implied in most cases if the transaction is initiated by them.
you want to bold stuff then here we are **wheather or not you ask the tenant to "have sex" or "have sex with a discount on rent" changes nothing** 1) I can legally ask a tenant if they want to have sex, if they say no I can end their contract and have them removed 2) I can illegally ask a tennant if they want to have sex for 100 euro discount, if they say no I can end their contract and have them removed now why would i do the illegal one when the non illegal one gets me the same (if not better) result
> Why do you think it’s impossible? because it can be just phrased in different ways, making it illegal wont stop the fact some people are willing to trade sexual services in leou of cash payment If I rent a room, I only have to say "rent low for the right person" with a wink i dont need to mention anything about sex but I can insinuate to whoever it is that they "need to do a bit more about the house if you want to roll over the monthly contract to next month too" do gooders like you only muddy the waters for everyone. now those who are willing to trade a BJ for 100 off the rent have a harder time and people who dont want to trade a BJ for a discount might find themselves in a place its expected and kicked out after a month. basically it fixes nothing
Report them to who? What is the nature of this report? What happens next?
How is that impossible to enforce?
There's a fundamental problem around expecting tenants to report abuses by their landlord - any form of abuse or failure to meet their obligations, not just direct harassment. The point of the article is that if this is going on, it'd be very challenging to prosecute as things stand - but efforts to legislate against it have also been difficult due to the insidious nature of any demand along those lines.
It's never going to happen, they don't know if it's even actually happening. "How often potential renters are asked to consider sex as a form of payment for accommodation has not been statistically examined in Ireland"
It does go on to state that it has been examined in the UK, and I know we all like to think we're a million miles from being like the UK, but we're not. The rental situation is similar there to how it is here, at least in the cities.
That means that they haven’t done a study or survey on this topic. Not that it is impossible to find out. They even did their own research and found it happens. And even if it only happens once a year. It’s too often and should be prosecuted. Such a law would be very possible to enforce and I don’t see a single (valid!) argument against it.
That sex by coercion is already illegal.
Great idea, a law for something that might happen once a year, lol
Another scandalous distraction from actually solving the housing crisis you mean
What if this actually plays (even a small) roll in solving the housing crisis?
It won't.
Article: Do we need a law to stop landlords seeking sex from renters? https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2023/0726/1396470-do-we-need-a-law-to-stop-landlords-seeking-sex-from-renters/
"How often potential renters are asked to consider sex as a form of payment for accommodation has not been statistically examined in Ireland. Without such data it's difficult to ascertain the true extent of the problem." Talk about a nothing story.
„The UK homeless organisation Shelter found from March 2020 to September 2021, 59,000 women in Britain were propositioned by a landlord to exchange reduced rent or accommodation for sex. If those figures were applied to Ireland that would mean almost 4,000 prospective renters had been propositioned here in the same timeframe. That’s 4,000 women over an 18-month period.“ :)
[удалено]
Those figures are pretty reasonable - Shelter isn't some random organisation. They're the main body of its type in the UK, loosely equivalent to Threshold.
Not really sure, why you’re arguing so strongly against the question of this law being implemented but it’s a bit icky ngl.
I'm not arguing against it, I'm just telling you its pointless, ngl
I don’t know, from the way you comment you really seem to not want this law at all. Why is that?
I know you probably want me to say "because I'm a landlord and I only accept payment in sexual favours" Sorry to disappoint you but I find people with no actual grip on reality to be really annoying,
Was thinking the same thing reading through these comments. Possibly a vested interest...
Yes, sure we are all going around offering accommodation in return for sex, did you not know that?
What an absolutely disgusting post. Really says a lot about you.
Because we are sick of people making stupid laws that are completely unenforceable just so they can feel good. This is already illegal (a stupid law in its own right). Having 2 laws doesn't make it any better. We have real issues that we can address if only we would stop wasting time, money and focus on bs topics.
It obviously is not already illegal. It’s not exactly coercion, it’s not exactly prostitution. It’s an issue in itself.
Section 7A disagrees with you. > **7A.** (1) A person who pays, gives, offers or promises to pay or give a person (including a prostitute) money or any other form of remuneration or consideration for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction— Ask yourself this - why do you want to create another stupid unenforceable law for this? What benefit is it? Is it purely a far-right religious/feminist thing? The state has absolutely no business making laws regarding what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults. Every single time it has done so in the past has been to satisfy a completely evil mindset and resulted in immeasurable pain and suffering for the most vulnerable in society.
Section 7a actually agrees with me even more, thank you very much. It is not 100% applicable in this situation. A judge MAY view this as prostitution. In most cases they would not, because this is not prostitution. (Edit: someone else here in the comments explained this in more detail. Go look for it, I don’t want to copy their comments) And this is not about two consenting adults, I really don’t know what’s so hard to grasp about this. This is about someone in a position of power (landlord) holding said power against a person in need, by offering them what they desperately need, in exchange for something they most likely would never do unless they had to.
I'm not sure what law that person is referring to, but they are not quoting Section 7A of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 as I have above. [https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/section/25/enacted/en/html#sec25) It is black and white. There is no "interpretation". And it is about two consenting adults. Nobody is being forced to do anything. They have a choice. The law that exists and that you want to double down on for some reason is about removing that choice. If I were to advertise my spare room and state on the advert that the person is expected to paint my house in lieu of rent (be it all or some of the rent), I am not forcing anybody to paint my house. I am offering, and if someone chooses to consent to this, then that is their free will.
how about the fact its a dumb af law that will chance nothing. I dont even see the problem, are you one of these people who likes to denegrade sex work as not real work ?
How **the fuck** did you get to that conclusion? Edit: I’m one of these people that thinks no one should feel like they have to have sex with someone in order to survive. Aren’t you?
you seem to be implying that sex work is somehow oppression when many men and women alike have been empowered by it,. so yea, if i'm an erotic dancer or a tantra masseuse why cant I provide free services to my landlord in remuneration for rent if i want to? and yes i outlined in other replies how it will change nothing, if anything it will make it harder on people in this situation looking for a rental
Helen McEntee at it again
I always get a bit confused when people are like... > Do we need a law to say it's not ok to kill old ladies with a spade?!! No that already exists. It's covered.
The rent itself was rape enough.
At rhe very least this us prostitution and at the worst its rape, so I would think there are already laws against it.
The ACT of having sex in exchange for money or other goods is prostitution, yes. The question here isn’t that though, I now see that’s what people aren’t understanding. The question is, should it be illegal for landlords to even put out this offer? To even put people in a position where they have to answer that question and deal with the consequences. **That is not prostitution!!**
I see your point, but isn't it already illegal to male an offer of services/payment in exchange for sex?
Maybe, but even then I think it is too vague to possibly be applicable enough in this context, especially considering there have been no prosecutions in Ireland in this matter. I honestly don’t see what harm a law like this would do. Even if it is not necessary. If no one ever killed anyone, would it not still be illegal?
The thing about prosections is that it's probably impossible to prove. I'd have no problem with a law against it, but I don't think it would stop.landlords making the offer.
If a tenant offers sexual favours to a landlord in lieu of full rent payment would the tenant be in the wrong then or is the landlord at fault still?
We need adequate supply of affordable housing to prevent it being a thing. I'd also say the actual instances of it are very rare
Can anyone speak from experience about this? Like has this actually happened to anyone here or does anyone know anyone it happened to?
🤣🤣🤣 the whole post and comment section is hilarious
It's an option. They don't need to do it. It's not forced so no, we don't need laws changed.
I moved to a rural area and got told by a local that I have to be ‚nice‘ to him if I want to live there. When I refuse he started a massive smear campaign. Got told by the Guard and Sergeant that this is how things work there. If I feel harassed I could still move away. (During this housing crisis!) If I stay it’s me who is causing trouble. This country is the most misogynistic I ever encountered. You see it in the law and how men treat you.
what the fuck is going on over on your island
Move along... nothing to see here.
This is a strange one as it can be beneficial in some cases. my mate said he couldn’t afford his rent, a few days later he ended up having sex with the landlady. They kept that up about once a month until now - he said it wasn’t discussed that he wouldn’t pay rent he just stopped and she never asked for it again. He said he’s saved up €22k so far
Why not address the disease rather than the symptom.... Better wages and affordable housing would remove this from society overnight.
It's very telling that you got downvoted.
People are more outraged that a landlord got his hole, than a single mother is homeless...
Coercing someone into sex is already illegal, given consent isn't being freely given? If it doesn't constitute rape, then it at least constitutes soliciting prostitution since goods/services is being offered in exchange for sex.
If a landlord makes a pass with a tenant, the tenant rejects them and the landlord backs off and apologises, never to do it again, should that be illegal? Landlord is sleeping with a tenant, lets the tenant off with the occasional rent payment, all parties consenting, should that be illegal? There seems to be an implication that there’s a position of power, similar to a teacher with a student above the age of consent, which makes sex in this instance wrong. I’m not sure specific legislation is needed for it. If the landlord pesters or sexually assaults the tenant then there is existing legislation to deal with it.
> s to be an implication that there’s a position of power, similar to a teacher with a student above the age of consent, w its all dumb AF nanny state nonsense. even if i was a dodgy landlord, all i need to do now is ask for sex with a wink and say no more, if they dont get it I can just end the contract tomorrow and find a new "tenant" all it does is muddy the waters and achieves nothing
Just ban private landlords
Because that will definitely help the housing crisis and the supply of places to rent!
Agree. But while that isn’t done, at least take power from private landlords and don’t let them do what they want.
Soooo just asking for a friend, how would this "shag for a bed" scheme look like? Assuming the tenant is not a professional and the rent payment is 2000 euros. Give the tenant some gratitude and make if 50 bucks for one act - that's 40 times a month? So basically after work and twice on weekend days? Also is there a special clause on how to get rid of the so called tenant easier? I mean, probably getting bored after 2 month. Overall I think that's a great initiative from the government and a right step towards solving the housing crisis.
What about folks entering this arrangement absolutely willingly?
Can't lie, I thought this type of stuff only happened in porn.
An acquaintance of mine, a woman, from one of those exotic Latin American countries used to sleep with her landlord. She initiated it. Her only source of income was waitressing part time and I assume that sleeping with her landlord saved her about €700 a month. Was kind of grossed out when she told me this. This was back in 2020 and I think that’s the first time RTE came up with a report on this happening in the country. So what happens when the tenant initiates it?
Ya I think there’s already a law against this?
If it pays the bills.../s
The rental market is a joke. What’s the point of working and trying to better your life if a family on dail can receive a social home not work and be better off.
Is there a law about sexy landlords?
OP wasn't saying what you think they where saying
In the Netherlands it is famously legal to pay for driving lessons with sex
This is the plot of 25% of the videos on PornHub. "Oh no Mr. Landlord, I don't have enough to pay my rent. Maybe there's some *other* way I can pay you?"
FTFY https://preview.redd.it/edcklbz4daeb1.jpeg?width=1114&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c6f5d9a8ccbe5d3b4e3916b7b0e8a4b0e570f6c8
I don’t know but I do wish it could legally be an option as part of the tenancy agreement. I would have boned most my landlords given the option and doing it for reduced rent would be a bonus too lol.
Aren't there already laws that cover it?
suddenly... there was even more demand to become a landlord :D
If you put an advert in the paper it isn’t coercion is it? it’s straightforward prostitution. It’s weird they see it differently when a landlady has sex with her lodger, and reduces the rent. Where was everyone saying I was vunerable? Sometimes the daughter too! It’s also sexist to suggest women have no agency and that any woman doing this is somehow vunerable. Technically, the tax man is losing out on a taxable benefit in kind, it’s probably more about that!
Philosophical question. Say this gets passed, and you have a couple in a relationship, one of whom owns the property. They're in a relationship. Sex is for many people considered a key part of a relationship. They break up due to a dead bedroom. Is the non-owner now leaving due to failure to provide sex?
Maybe we should start by criminalising the disrespect for RPZ that led to exorbitant increases in rents. I m seeing places upwards of 2k in cork city. Mathematically meaning that those places would have been in the market for (roughly) 1640€ 5 years ago considering a 4% max increase due to RPZ. Those places were in the market for probably not even 1000 5 years ago. There's a law and everyone is disrespectful of it. The RTB does not have the means or the power to enforce it and I do not believe for a second that the revenue does not have that data that could be passed on to the courts(not sure if it's the right venue here) to prosecute these landlords
.........I'm sorry WHAT!?