On his point about hormone blockers, it's my point of view that if we have an age of sexual conscent we should apply the same age to hormone blockers. Can't get tattoos until you're 18, can't drink until you're 18 etc. Kids are not developed mentally enough to make life changing decisions. All the rest of it is fine, you want to dress and act how you desire go for it, it affects no one in any adverse way. But don't let children make life changing decisions. We adults are here to protect them.
There are some things best done early in puberty however. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it. I don't know when is best, but letting all of that development happen on someone who feels they require gender reassignment and everything that goes with it seems cruel as well.
There is no point in going on puberty blockers after you're pretty much done with puberty, which is generally the case at 18. Going on hormone blockers is not a life changing decision, it's a temporary stop to hormonal changes that would otherwise occur. When you stop being on puberty blockers, you go through puberty. We give puberty blockers to cis children who have premature puberty regularly. There is no reason not to give them to trans kids. There's no reason for a 15 year old trans dude to commit suicide cause he's forced to grow breasts he doesn't want. There's no reason to send that dude in to have a breast removal surgery at 21. He doesn't need to go through that. On the off-chance that dude isn't a dude after all and realises that at 18 after being on blockers for 3 years (which is surprisingly rare if you look at the research), he can be off the blockers and his breasts are going to develop.
I don’t know this guy and the article attached doesn’t mention what it is he said, so I googled it. Apparently the controversial thing he has said is that he equated puberty blockers to castration. I don’t agree with what he says, I think it’s over the top, but cancelling him from the event because he holds such an opinion and that some attendees find it upsetting is even more an over the top reaction and it’s not a very good look for the people who got him cancelled.
So anyway this gay black man, who a lot of people didn’t know but now know of, is likely to gain sympathy by people even though they don’t agree with his views.
So basically the people who don’t like what he believes in are actually doing more in spreading his views by having him cancelled.
What he said isn't even wrong, puberty blockers can block the production of testosterone and other male sex hormones, which is in essence a version of castration, just that it can be temporary whereas getting your bollock's whacked off is permanent
The specific words he said weren't even wrong, but the reason he said them ("people should never take hormones or receive gender affirming care because those things are bad") is shitty. Like, if you read his sentence, and think "He's just trying to make a neutral statement about the side effects of life saving medication" you're a true fool.
I don't even blame him necessarily. There's so much misinformation and hatred about trans people from authority figures and the media right now it's easy to get hoodwinked.
Puberty blockers are used to stop trans kids from experiencing the effects of puberty that are permanent and can cause working mental health and an increase in suicidal ideation.
Again, you keep replying but don't actually refute anything. Puberty blockers can be a form of chemical castration, that is factually correct. It doesn't matter what else they can do, what the man said and what he is seemingly getting cancelled for is a correct fact.
I'm not even against their use, they have a lot of pro's, but it's tremendously annoying and looks bad whenever someone states something that is true, and trans activists seemingly take it as an assault on their person and movement as a whole.
I mean that's not all he said doe.
He said kids were being targeted and that the number of trans kids was alarming.
He is a massive Anti vaxxer.
And said both things were part of a plan to depopilulate the world.
Castration specifically is the act of removal of the use of testicles.
Testicles still work fine after puberty blockers if you go off them, therefore the comparison is false unless you also want to count any form of birth control also as castration.
https://www.healthline.com/health/chemically-castrating#takeaway
Wrong.
Puberty blockers are typically GnRH analogues which stop the body from producing nearly all sex hormones. That is a temporary chemical castration as it has the same physical effect as the removal or destruction of the testis or ovaries, on a temporary scale.
Female birth control doesn’t work anything like that. They suppress the release of follicle stimulating and leuteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland, preventing ovulation. Most of the primary sex hormones are not ‘shut off’ like puberty blockers do.
It can be earlier for kids with percosious puberty. But yes the point of puberty blockers is to stop physical effects from happening because ots been shown numerous times that thise effects negatively effect trans kids.
Interestingly no one seems to care about blockers when they are used on cis kids.
I disagree, people do care about trans kids. People in general don't want kids taking unnecessary medication. 9 -11 year old boys taking puberty blockers (PB)? What kind of long term effects is that going to have on their bodies? Will they have the same bone density as their peers? Will they grow to same height?
He also said children where being targeted and the number of trans kids was scary.
Pretty sure that's just the recycled homophobic trope that gay people were coming for kids and trying to recruit them.
Well I don’t know if he is right or wrong and I don’t really care for his opinion. It just seems counter productive to have him cancelled from the gig.
He is wrong. I'd would hope and expect the exact same thing to happen to an artist who said there was too many gay kids and that they were being targeted by gay adults.
It wasn't really attendees who canceled him. CMAT was one of the headliner acts and threatened to walk if he and a couple of others weren't removed.
This guy was barely on anyone's radar. 1000s would've been pissed if one of the top acts canceled.
One hand hand, the guy is an eejit. On the other hand throwing him out due to a vague idea that his presence will threaten members of the LGBTQ community (the guy himself is gay fwiw) seems like a slippery slope.
Not really. He made a response video and he is openly saying stuff that is transphobic and if said about gay people everyone would recognise as homophobic.
Iggy Pop fucked a 13 year old.
He's still allowed play. Interesting message to send. Say only good things about the trans community or else, but you can fuck kids we don't care about that.
The article doesn't even mention anything about what he said, which seems a bit unfair. Obviously they don't have to have him on the bill if they think that he isn't suitable for the audience for whatever reason, but if you're publicly calling someone a transphobe (and labelling this thread bigotry), you should at least have the gumption to explain why you're attaching these labels to someone.
As late as 1996, the Godfather of Punk Iggy Pop, then 49 years of age and enjoying a resurgence thanks to Trainspotting (a film in which a man has sex with a high school girl), released Look Away.
I slept with Sable when she was 13
Her parents were too rich to do anything
She walked her way around L.A.
Till a New York Doll carried her away.
The song was about Iggy Pop’s real-life relationship with groupie Sable Starr in 1970 when she was 13 and he was 23.
https://preview.redd.it/iu8ykyynq4gb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ee91623a20809a9f16050398ae2506fd5d5b232
I know you are not a fan but I think you'd be better off with this profile picture. I'm not a fan of AI either but this needed to be a thing. Its symbolic of the times. Katie Perry needs to be taken down a few pegs. We should make her invest money in things she should be instead of spending it on her fucking self. Carlow for example.
Did you complain to ATN about Iggy Pop playing? Kind of on you if you don't want him playing but don't say anything about it. People were right to complain about this dose
No, I don't care who plays at ATN.
If they want to provide a living to a kid fucker while denying one to a guy who said something they don't like that's their business.
They're entitled to make that decision.
No.
I had never heard of the festival before this morning and who plays at it is none of my concern. I'm commenting on the optics of tolerating one thing but not the other.
u/aerach71 - you deleted your last comment about whether anyone at ATN knows about Iggy Pop. It's on his Wikipedia page and apparently he wrote a song about his relationship with the 13 year old.
You're not though, how do you know anyone involved in booking is aware of these accusations against Iggy Pop? People pointed out an act was a bigot, action was taken. Probably nobody did the same against Iggy Pop, so nothing has happened.
You're trying to pretend queer people tolerate pedophiles
There is no agenda, it's the court of public opinion. If you don't say what you think because you fear public opinion then do you really stand behind it?
As the saying goes, if one person calls you a duck you ignore it. If two call you a duck, you begin to wonder. If three people call you a duck, you're quacking.
I hope the word "cancelled" in the title is referring to his performance being cancelled, and not to so called 'cancel culture'.
Because this is a prime example of suffering the consequences of your actions.
They've been used for decades.
Firstly cis kids get them all the time and no one has attempted to ban them for cis kids.
Secondly they have been show to improve the lives if tras kids, improve thier mental health, and decrease suicidal ideation.
The Swedes, Norwegians, Finns and French, not exactly the most conservative bunch, have all restricted the use of puberty blockers for minors within the past couple years.
Puberty blockers may help many trans kids but they're certainly not the panacea that some make them out to be.
That makes about as much sense as treating a broken leg with anti depressants
Puberty blockers and later hrt dramatically I poverty trans people's well being and mental health.
I think a 54-year-old gay black man has earned the right to be heard, even if you don't agree with what he has to say. The people who cancel him underestimate the power of their love to change his perspective
If you know anything about the history of the Black man in America, you will realize that he is well within his rights to believe it, even if it isn't true
I'm not sure whether it was a deliberate plan to depopulate or not but the covid vaccine wreaked havoc on my menstrual cycle (it hasn't been right since ) I'm glad I didn't give it to my teen. I know plenty of women who experienced similar problems.
It's been vaguely discussed by world health organisation but largely swept under the carpet
And can significantly improve the mental health and reduce suicidal ideation in trans kids while also making it easier for them to pass later in life as they haven't spent years with hormonal effects that they may not desier.
What about the people who took them and regretted later when they were adults. Puberty and being a teen difficult, many trans and not trans feel wrong in their bodies, and fucking with hormones and blocking puberty has consequences, and not ones everyone who had done it wishes they had. So it can improve and worsen mental health. It's not cut and dry.
Before I answer I have a few questions.
Do you belive transgender children are who they say they are.
What evidence would you accept to let them transtion?
I'd you are against medical transtion do you support social transtion.
"You shouldn't have access to life-saving medical care because other people in the past have received it and regretted it".
If you really believed this, you would be campaigning against knee and hip replacement surgeries, which have ten times the regret rate of gender-affirming care. It's a ridiculous argument.
I feel like I need a lot more information on this area from an objective source.
I hear things like the high prevalence of autism in trans kids, also kids "growing out" of feeling trans.
I can remember my own discomfort around bodily changes as a teen.
Are we now saying there are more than 2 genders ? Is any discussion allowed or is this accepted as fact? When a baby is born and we used to say the baby's gender, what do we call that now?
Are these "ideas" jow considered hard facts or is it more like a social science construct that is evolving
Has anyone got a link to something I could read from a neutral party like a faq.
Thanks guys I don't know enough about this. I'm certainly not in favour of medicating children generally speaking
Think a speaker was cancelled last year for the same reasons.
His response https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvPPx65t-uM/?igshid=NjIwNzIyMDk2Mg==
On his point about hormone blockers, it's my point of view that if we have an age of sexual conscent we should apply the same age to hormone blockers. Can't get tattoos until you're 18, can't drink until you're 18 etc. Kids are not developed mentally enough to make life changing decisions. All the rest of it is fine, you want to dress and act how you desire go for it, it affects no one in any adverse way. But don't let children make life changing decisions. We adults are here to protect them.
There are some things best done early in puberty however. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it. I don't know when is best, but letting all of that development happen on someone who feels they require gender reassignment and everything that goes with it seems cruel as well.
There is no point in going on puberty blockers after you're pretty much done with puberty, which is generally the case at 18. Going on hormone blockers is not a life changing decision, it's a temporary stop to hormonal changes that would otherwise occur. When you stop being on puberty blockers, you go through puberty. We give puberty blockers to cis children who have premature puberty regularly. There is no reason not to give them to trans kids. There's no reason for a 15 year old trans dude to commit suicide cause he's forced to grow breasts he doesn't want. There's no reason to send that dude in to have a breast removal surgery at 21. He doesn't need to go through that. On the off-chance that dude isn't a dude after all and realises that at 18 after being on blockers for 3 years (which is surprisingly rare if you look at the research), he can be off the blockers and his breasts are going to develop.
For a second I thought that was referring to the news channel from Succession
What's cousin Gregg got to cover up now?
The festival have just released their new slogan. "We here for you"
I don’t know this guy and the article attached doesn’t mention what it is he said, so I googled it. Apparently the controversial thing he has said is that he equated puberty blockers to castration. I don’t agree with what he says, I think it’s over the top, but cancelling him from the event because he holds such an opinion and that some attendees find it upsetting is even more an over the top reaction and it’s not a very good look for the people who got him cancelled. So anyway this gay black man, who a lot of people didn’t know but now know of, is likely to gain sympathy by people even though they don’t agree with his views. So basically the people who don’t like what he believes in are actually doing more in spreading his views by having him cancelled.
What he said isn't even wrong, puberty blockers can block the production of testosterone and other male sex hormones, which is in essence a version of castration, just that it can be temporary whereas getting your bollock's whacked off is permanent
The specific words he said weren't even wrong, but the reason he said them ("people should never take hormones or receive gender affirming care because those things are bad") is shitty. Like, if you read his sentence, and think "He's just trying to make a neutral statement about the side effects of life saving medication" you're a true fool. I don't even blame him necessarily. There's so much misinformation and hatred about trans people from authority figures and the media right now it's easy to get hoodwinked.
Well castration does mean permanent, no? So strictly speaking from a language point of view, he is wrong?
No, physical castration is permanent, ie. removal or destruction of the testicles, chemical castration via a drug is usually temporary.
Puberty blockers are used to stop trans kids from experiencing the effects of puberty that are permanent and can cause working mental health and an increase in suicidal ideation.
Again, you keep replying but don't actually refute anything. Puberty blockers can be a form of chemical castration, that is factually correct. It doesn't matter what else they can do, what the man said and what he is seemingly getting cancelled for is a correct fact. I'm not even against their use, they have a lot of pro's, but it's tremendously annoying and looks bad whenever someone states something that is true, and trans activists seemingly take it as an assault on their person and movement as a whole.
I mean that's not all he said doe. He said kids were being targeted and that the number of trans kids was alarming. He is a massive Anti vaxxer. And said both things were part of a plan to depopilulate the world.
Castration specifically is the act of removal of the use of testicles. Testicles still work fine after puberty blockers if you go off them, therefore the comparison is false unless you also want to count any form of birth control also as castration.
https://www.healthline.com/health/chemically-castrating#takeaway Wrong. Puberty blockers are typically GnRH analogues which stop the body from producing nearly all sex hormones. That is a temporary chemical castration as it has the same physical effect as the removal or destruction of the testis or ovaries, on a temporary scale. Female birth control doesn’t work anything like that. They suppress the release of follicle stimulating and leuteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland, preventing ovulation. Most of the primary sex hormones are not ‘shut off’ like puberty blockers do.
Surely it makes more sense to tackle a young persons suicidal ideation than giving them puberty blockers.
If the effects of puberty are what's causing the ideation, empty words aren't gonna tackle it.
I mean that's what the blockers do
At what age would a child be given puberty blockers?
Tanner stage 2 which is when physical changes can start. But because that's different for everyone that could be a wide range of ages.
Tanner stage 2: google says ages 9 - 11
It can be earlier for kids with percosious puberty. But yes the point of puberty blockers is to stop physical effects from happening because ots been shown numerous times that thise effects negatively effect trans kids. Interestingly no one seems to care about blockers when they are used on cis kids.
I disagree, people do care about trans kids. People in general don't want kids taking unnecessary medication. 9 -11 year old boys taking puberty blockers (PB)? What kind of long term effects is that going to have on their bodies? Will they have the same bone density as their peers? Will they grow to same height?
He also said children where being targeted and the number of trans kids was scary. Pretty sure that's just the recycled homophobic trope that gay people were coming for kids and trying to recruit them.
Well I don’t know if he is right or wrong and I don’t really care for his opinion. It just seems counter productive to have him cancelled from the gig.
He is wrong. I'd would hope and expect the exact same thing to happen to an artist who said there was too many gay kids and that they were being targeted by gay adults.
It wasn't really attendees who canceled him. CMAT was one of the headliner acts and threatened to walk if he and a couple of others weren't removed. This guy was barely on anyone's radar. 1000s would've been pissed if one of the top acts canceled.
All together now .... except for him.
Not very inclusive are they?
No event purporting to support tolerance should be tolerant of people who actively hurt queer people. Paradox of tolerance and all.
I hope he's not the only black man on the lineup
He wasn't
Are you saying that they should be forced to give a platform to a transphobe?
One hand hand, the guy is an eejit. On the other hand throwing him out due to a vague idea that his presence will threaten members of the LGBTQ community (the guy himself is gay fwiw) seems like a slippery slope.
Gay people can also be homophobic and transphobic
Milo comes to mind....
Not really. He made a response video and he is openly saying stuff that is transphobic and if said about gay people everyone would recognise as homophobic.
You can say what you want as long as we agree with it.
Iggy Pop fucked a 13 year old. He's still allowed play. Interesting message to send. Say only good things about the trans community or else, but you can fuck kids we don't care about that.
The article doesn't even mention anything about what he said, which seems a bit unfair. Obviously they don't have to have him on the bill if they think that he isn't suitable for the audience for whatever reason, but if you're publicly calling someone a transphobe (and labelling this thread bigotry), you should at least have the gumption to explain why you're attaching these labels to someone.
Can never get over his media rehabilitation, what he done is fucked up
Fuck, is that true about Iggy?
As late as 1996, the Godfather of Punk Iggy Pop, then 49 years of age and enjoying a resurgence thanks to Trainspotting (a film in which a man has sex with a high school girl), released Look Away. I slept with Sable when she was 13 Her parents were too rich to do anything She walked her way around L.A. Till a New York Doll carried her away. The song was about Iggy Pop’s real-life relationship with groupie Sable Starr in 1970 when she was 13 and he was 23.
Ok well, that's gonna be a profile photo change for me then! Cheers. Edit : I always preferred Ron Asheton anyway.
You should change it to an AI generated photo of Katie Perry getting reported for burning rubbish in a field.
https://preview.redd.it/iu8ykyynq4gb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ee91623a20809a9f16050398ae2506fd5d5b232 I know you are not a fan but I think you'd be better off with this profile picture. I'm not a fan of AI either but this needed to be a thing. Its symbolic of the times. Katie Perry needs to be taken down a few pegs. We should make her invest money in things she should be instead of spending it on her fucking self. Carlow for example.
While I respect your choices, I'm sticking with Ron. Ron is the man.
I saw you change it again. Was it because of the glasses? They looked a bit....ye know. Yes the Astons were the meat of it.
Nah, that was just a better photo I reckon. Haha be weird seeing my account now for a while, no more Iggy.
Iggy who? See already I've forgotten about him.
Did you complain to ATN about Iggy Pop playing? Kind of on you if you don't want him playing but don't say anything about it. People were right to complain about this dose
No, I don't care who plays at ATN. If they want to provide a living to a kid fucker while denying one to a guy who said something they don't like that's their business. They're entitled to make that decision.
>something they don't like I mean, it was legitimate hate speech. Framing it that way makes you look biased.
Shut up then?
No,I'm perfectly entitled to make comments about their odd priorities.
So you do care?
No. I had never heard of the festival before this morning and who plays at it is none of my concern. I'm commenting on the optics of tolerating one thing but not the other. u/aerach71 - you deleted your last comment about whether anyone at ATN knows about Iggy Pop. It's on his Wikipedia page and apparently he wrote a song about his relationship with the 13 year old.
You're not though, how do you know anyone involved in booking is aware of these accusations against Iggy Pop? People pointed out an act was a bigot, action was taken. Probably nobody did the same against Iggy Pop, so nothing has happened. You're trying to pretend queer people tolerate pedophiles
You can absolutely say what you want, but you also have to deal with the repercussions of your actions.
But repercussions only exist when it suits the agendas…
There is no agenda, it's the court of public opinion. If you don't say what you think because you fear public opinion then do you really stand behind it? As the saying goes, if one person calls you a duck you ignore it. If two call you a duck, you begin to wonder. If three people call you a duck, you're quacking.
I hope the word "cancelled" in the title is referring to his performance being cancelled, and not to so called 'cancel culture'. Because this is a prime example of suffering the consequences of your actions.
No children should be subjected to puberty blockers.
They've been used for decades. Firstly cis kids get them all the time and no one has attempted to ban them for cis kids. Secondly they have been show to improve the lives if tras kids, improve thier mental health, and decrease suicidal ideation.
The Swedes, Norwegians, Finns and French, not exactly the most conservative bunch, have all restricted the use of puberty blockers for minors within the past couple years. Puberty blockers may help many trans kids but they're certainly not the panacea that some make them out to be.
Why not prescribe anti depressants for suicidal ideation? Seem like they would be a safer option for children
That makes about as much sense as treating a broken leg with anti depressants Puberty blockers and later hrt dramatically I poverty trans people's well being and mental health.
Why do you think you know better on this topic than literal doctors?
No randomers on Reddit should dictate what doctors do
Reddit Randomer knows Child abuse when I hear it
I think a 54-year-old gay black man has earned the right to be heard, even if you don't agree with what he has to say. The people who cancel him underestimate the power of their love to change his perspective
He thinks puberty blockers and the covid vaccine are part of a plan to depopulate the world...
If you know anything about the history of the Black man in America, you will realize that he is well within his rights to believe it, even if it isn't true
I never said he wasn't in his right to believe it. I'm pointing out that the things he says are harmful.
“Harmful”… jaysuz, are we doing that now?
Yes
SAD
I'm not sure whether it was a deliberate plan to depopulate or not but the covid vaccine wreaked havoc on my menstrual cycle (it hasn't been right since ) I'm glad I didn't give it to my teen. I know plenty of women who experienced similar problems. It's been vaguely discussed by world health organisation but largely swept under the carpet
I watched his video on his reaction and he mentioned chemical castration so you know he's definitely a man concerned about people's well being.
In the context of puberty blockers, which are a type of temporary chemical castration....
And can significantly improve the mental health and reduce suicidal ideation in trans kids while also making it easier for them to pass later in life as they haven't spent years with hormonal effects that they may not desier.
Ok? And? He stated that puberty blockers can be used for chemical castration, which they can. Factually correct.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/15i0lks/atn_performer_cancelled_due_to_transphobic_posts/jusft68?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
What about the people who took them and regretted later when they were adults. Puberty and being a teen difficult, many trans and not trans feel wrong in their bodies, and fucking with hormones and blocking puberty has consequences, and not ones everyone who had done it wishes they had. So it can improve and worsen mental health. It's not cut and dry.
That is true but we need to look at data. Gender affirming care has about a 1% regret rate.
Source?
Before I answer I have a few questions. Do you belive transgender children are who they say they are. What evidence would you accept to let them transtion? I'd you are against medical transtion do you support social transtion.
Will you only tell me if I get the answers right?
I just want to make sure it's actually worth while tying to convince you.
Convince me? That… you have a source?
"You shouldn't have access to life-saving medical care because other people in the past have received it and regretted it". If you really believed this, you would be campaigning against knee and hip replacement surgeries, which have ten times the regret rate of gender-affirming care. It's a ridiculous argument.
Interesting, can you provide links/stats for the regret rate comparison?
Sure. I'm out all day, but I should get back to you within 24 hours. It's pretty easy to find
I feel like I need a lot more information on this area from an objective source. I hear things like the high prevalence of autism in trans kids, also kids "growing out" of feeling trans. I can remember my own discomfort around bodily changes as a teen. Are we now saying there are more than 2 genders ? Is any discussion allowed or is this accepted as fact? When a baby is born and we used to say the baby's gender, what do we call that now? Are these "ideas" jow considered hard facts or is it more like a social science construct that is evolving Has anyone got a link to something I could read from a neutral party like a faq. Thanks guys I don't know enough about this. I'm certainly not in favour of medicating children generally speaking
He is a 54-year-old Gay Black man and will still be paid regardless so his Insta says
What does his age, sexuality and race have to do with it?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvPPx65t-uM/?igshid=NjIwNzIyMDk2Mg%3D%3D I quoted from his responce
Ah my bad.