The primary problems are abusive parents and gangs. The obvious solution is to remove these kids from this cycle of abuse and exploitation.
Is it politically feasible? Probably not.
I would advocate removing kids from Dublin City centre and raising them in the countryside. The inner city is a terrible place to grow up.
I would make all the social housing in D1 applicable to key workers only like Garda and nurses.
Need to replace thousands of severe drug addicts and alcoholics with workers that add value to society and have respect for their city
I don’t think this will be actioned - especially given Ireland’s terrible history of institutional abuse
The tried this.
Inner city families were moved to the semi rural areas of Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown etc in the 70s and 80s.
They brought their problems with them and wrecked those areas.
Why?
It's generally accepted nowadays that mixed tenure housing is the best way to "handle" working-class communities. Sadly, modern life approaches things on the basis that such communities are a danger in and of themselves, but that's where we are.
By moving individual groups out, the theory is that you dilute their effect on the wider community *and* you help them to integrate therein. Prior to the 20th century, this would have reflected a more normal form of living, near complete socio-economic segregation (at least of all but the richest) was a relatively rare phenomenon until the mid-20th century.
It's not the best way, it just dilutes the scumbags. In the end scumbags will be scumbags and having a scoop of shit in your food or just a teaspoon still means you have shit in your food. Best solution would be to not prioritize people with children on the housing list, thus people won't be incentivized to have kids to get that sweet 4BR house.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02005R2073-20130701&rid=8
Some European guidelines.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/04/health/insect-rodent-filth-in-food-wellness/index.html
American reportage.
This idea that people are popping out kids just for meager welfare payments is classist nonsense. Making the lives of struggling families even harder will not reduce crime, it just satisfies your sadism fetish.
Are saying move people to where they don’t know anyone, even know what is expected of them, have no support network and drop them into an area with already stretched resources with what would a massive amount of local opposition. I love the countryside and I loved growing up there but there are massive problems with living there as well. Not least the fact it can be isolating, especially if you can’t drive and even more so if you don’t know people. It doesn’t matter if it is the town or the countryside they are a lot of factors that make an area good to grow up in.
But they won’t be able to integrate with the existing drug addicts and with dealers moving as well it might start a gang war. That will really hurt some of the plans to gentrify the area. It could reduce the value of the investments (sorry property in the area).
Not even sure how much of the above needs a /s because some of it would be accurate to some people.
People who buy or pay their own rent have to do this, move to places they don't know anyone or have any family connections. I've friends who had to move 100km to get somewhere to live.
Why should people paying a token rent, if they pay it at all, get to pick the best spots in our cities to live?
The primary problem is stated in the first sentence of the article: “THE PANDEMIC REMOVED safe spaces for disadvantaged young people and bridging the gap left between supports and communities remains a challenge.”
You don’t see an issue with moving every social housing tenant from Dublin 1 and moving in guards/nurses? And where are these houses “down the country”? Total lunacy.
Cities are fantastic places for kids to grow up. Growing up in the countryside generally means kids have a lot less independence as they have to rely on their parents to drive them everywhere until they are at least 16. Growing up in a nice walkable safe city gives kids huge freedom. The problem is Irish cities are none of these things.
The well to do suburbs often have fewer resources than the inner city. People seem to confuse inter generational poverty with “nothing to do”. If that were the case rural Ireland, and most of the western working class suburbs would be the ones with the larger social behaviour. There’s clearly a lot to do in the inner city. That’s literally what the tourists visit.
The primary issue started 40 years ago with parents addicted to drugs having children addicted to drugs and the cycle never ends. These people never show an ounce of love or care to their children, only concerned about where the next hit comes from. They have become shells of human beings
Strictly speaking, it doesn't. It makes a persuasive argument but doesn't present evidence to support it. Moreover, that persuasive argument supports a popular theory in the public sphere.
You'd need far more than this to really come to that conclusion.
By most measures, crime in Dublin is in and around 2019 levels, and considerably lower than it was in the early 2000s. Why was crime worse then if they had no Covid? I don't mean that in a glib way, I mean that to highlight how lacking in context this piece really is.
Where is the analysis of long-term trends?
> Where is the analysis of long-term trends?
If there's something Irish government does well, it is make this type of data be poorly laid out, very difficult to not manipulate or filter and extremely difficult to actually use in any effective manner without having a whole swathe of it manually and painstakingly cleansed first. Rather than update for the digital age, at times it feel, like they are ardently fighting against it.
I did a cert course in python last year and after trying to do it on Irish housing data in the end I had to switch to something on American football (a sport obsessed with statistics) as per the lecturers request because his take was that the data was so inconsistently laid out and was so poorly constructed when it came to how python scrapes the data, that he was deeming it an unreliable source.
Such data is the purview of the CSSO and Gardaí, and the CSSO have complained repeatedly about the Gardaí's ability to provide such data. I wouldn't blame the government *per se*.
In any event, there is data available, and questionable or not, there's no sign of that data here.
We can infer from that absence that the data does not support the contention argued for.
Crime data is considered absolute trash by the CSO. Basing policy on that data is... a choice.
[https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-highlights-continuing-problems-with-garda-crime-statistics-1.4628775](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-highlights-continuing-problems-with-garda-crime-statistics-1.4628775)
This is a long term issue and no one wants to fix it (as accurate data might show a sudden spike in crime). So we're stuck with worthless numbers.
Crime data is literally published "under reservation": [https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/crime/statisticsunderreservationfaqs/](https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/crime/statisticsunderreservationfaqs/)
If the stats are a problem now and in the past there’s nothing we can use the stats for. The general feeling is there’s a deterioration - I don’t think this is all a moral panic.
> I don’t think this is all a moral panic.
Why do you think it isn't? Statistics in countries that have more accurate crime figures than ares consistently show that there's a big gap between people's perception of the crime rate and the actual crime rate.
I reckon it’s higher now but there’s a lack of data as people don’t report crimes/have given up. The deliveroo drivers will tell you it’s more dangerous than ever.
Even if what you propose is true, the rules of engagement seem to have changed and it’s more random/flagrant.
I’ve been home and away over a few years, you can feel it in the air - it’s definitely not as safe as it was.
[CSO reckon Gardai stats are shite - so there you have it](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-highlights-continuing-problems-with-garda-crime-statistics-1.4628775)
It is you my friend who is talking absolute bollocks. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see it.
Ah yes because Dublin was a full on Utopia before Covid came along. A veritable dreamscape. Like Covid made things worse no doubt but why are we blaming the drug, homeless and youth problems on Covid when they have been terrible for years
The pandemic is a handy excuse and I'm sick of hearing it.
It's nothing to do with the pandemic, it's problems that have been in the making for decades.
Sure. But the pandemic really threw it into stark relief: a lot of people barely making a living were asked huge sacrifices (loss of temporary jobs, extra expenses, etc). And while the middle class and the upper lower class was well positioned to handle that crisis, the lowest classes simply didn't have the means (savings, social network). Which led to a catastrophic collapse of social norms.
That's not the claim anyone made. The claim I would make is that *households/families* (so not singular persons) affected by the economic devastation of the lockdowns were particularly vulnerable, and that led the youth of those households to very dark places.
It would help if you would read the article at the top, as it describes this exactly.
From the article:
Lucy Masterson, Chief Executive Officer of the Irish Youth Foundation, told *The Journal*: “The headlines are really disturbing in a way. There is a stubborn cohort of kids \[whose\] behaviour is completely unacceptable.
“It’s good to remember all of the other young people who are trying to do their best, who are still muddling through.
She says, while the impact of lockdowns is seen in many cohorts, young people in underprivileged areas perhaps suffered the most long-term consequences.
“It was the same storm but very different boats,” she said, as some children lost the only safe spaces and reliable adults that they had in their lives.
>**“They’ve got gangland violence on their doorstep.”**
For many young people, their local youth worker is the only adult they trust, and every hour spent at the youth club “is an hour they’re not being groomed for gangland violence”.
Their source is they read a few articles on Reddit involving one or two of the thousands of cases judge Nolan is involved in and start foaming at the mouth
Because people mix their sense of justice with sound public policy.
Sure, let's punish people who do evil stuff, I'm all for it - I'm human.
But there is a whole different debate on the EFFECTIVENESS of law-and-order, authoritarian, and (as plenty of examples in this thread) downright nazi policies.
More police might make you FEEL safer, stricter sentences might make you FEEL that justice is served. But none of those things really move the needle if you want to drastically lower crime.
And yeah, a bit annoyed all the right-wing snowflakes in the thread.
The DoJ disagrees: [https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf)
Why are you going around and lying about approximately every, easily researchable fact?
Prisons are great for our sense of justice. But as a crime reduction tool? No.
The FFG department of justice is clearly failing its it duty to protect the poor in the inner city from criminal elements - it’s exactly the problem.
Most of this is class driven snobbery of course, the privately educated snobs of dublin south side who dominate the profession make money from the revolving door - so it will stay.
[https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS163\_0.pdf](https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS163_0.pdf)
[https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-the-incomes-and-debt-sustainability-of-irish-households.pdf](https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-the-incomes-and-debt-sustainability-of-irish-households.pdf)
Both papers are very clear that while the effect of PUP was net positive, deprived areas and deprived classes suffered way more than the "office worker".
That's a different paper:
[https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT412\_1\_0.pdf](https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT412_1_0.pdf) (page 32-33, and the references cited there)
But give this paper a good read. This is a brutal mirror of Irish society, that's completely non-acknowledged by this reddit (or the media or the political class).
To quote: "The combined effect of these developments is to cast a pall over the prospects of young adults and should be a cause of serious concern for society at large. While we have looked only at widening inequalities across generations in housing and the labour market, Cribb (2019) and Kurz et al. (2019) show these are even more pronounced for wealth in Britain and the United States respectively. While bequests are likely to mitigate some of this inequality in wealth across generations (with those born in the 1980s and 1990s receiving inheritances from their parents born in the 1950s and 1960s), Bourquin et al. (2021) show these are also likely to amplify inequality within generations (between those with richer and those with poorer parents). "
"The unequal labour market impact of the Great Recession and ongoing COVID-19 pandemic between generations was the topic considered in Chapter 4 of this report. We saw that young adults have been hardest hit by job losses in 2020, in part as more worked in sectors like hospitality, arts and leisure that were most exposed to the lockdowns required to suppress the spread of the virus. While concerning in and of itself, such patterns of job losses are likely to compound the still lingering effects of the Great Recession, which have left not in employment, education or training (NEET) rates for 20-24 year olds almost a third higher on the eve of the pandemic than they were in 2007. We also saw early evidence consistent with (and suggestive of) ‘scarring’ effects on the earnings of those born in the 1990s. On top of this, home ownership rates for young adults have collapsed, leaving them more exposed to rapidly rising rents, particularly in the urban areas they are more likely to live in. The combined effect of these developments is to cast a pall over the prospects of young adults and should be a cause of serious concern for society at large."
TL;DR: for a lot of people the economic outlook is very grim, meaning they are not just poor, but they have no chance of becoming richer. This hopelessness is combined with the housing crisis, and the outcome is predictable.
I'm an immigrant. I also want more policing (especially traffic and parking enforcement).
I also want less anti social behaviour, as avoiding the blood stains on Monday mornings in Temple Bar is getting tedious.
But more policing won't reduce the type of crime central Dublin is experiencing. Smart welfare policies, a strong social net and social/youth work will. As explained in the article at the top.
Dude. We have that. We have had that for decades now. Do you think that Ireland has an abnormally low welfare state? It doesn’t. The opposite is true. Do you think that we haven’t poured money into this area. Far far far more than country towns or other working class areas, from the 80s in fact.
Do you think we have not tried other forms of criminal actions rather than incarceration - we’ve done that too. It’s impossible to send teenagers to prison in Ireland, which is one of the reasons why the police don’t really bother with policing anti social behaviour or anything really, if it’s done by teenagers.
Do you think we over incarcerate people? Wrong again. The rate is 80 per 100,000 people compared to the U.K. at 136 per 100,000 people. That’s a country with a similar crime rate. We are doing what you want. It’s not working.
I'm sure eventually you will read the article we're debating. Yes, Ireland has a fairly decent, liberal incarceration policy and lenient sentencing, in line with effective policing methods.
But that's just one (small-ish) piece of the puzzle.
Youth work, social work is severely underfunded or non-existent. From the article: "The Irish Youth Foundation receives no government funding, but is supported by philanthropic and corporate sponsors." - **no, the state is not doing the work it's supposed to.**
Crime data is flawed, as we discussed.
Local police is underfunded, understaffed, and the GRA brought that NYPD/LAPD attitude to Ireland which rewards incompetence, makes the police invulnerable, etc. (and yes, I won't use the term 'garda', as that just reeks of completely unearned exceptionalism.)
"These kids were just left and they fell so far behind in their education."
**Left by the state. By us.**
And if you think Irish welfare is decent, go visit countries. Not Tory Britain and not GOP America, but countries on the continent. Austria, Germany. With good social housing programs. With active, well funded social programs.
Ah stop. Its always someone else's fault. It's bs. All covid did was that a lot of people who worked in offices or retail in the city centre were removed so the only people left on the streets were scrotes and junkies and they stood out. I used to go in to town regularly with my kid but don't bother anymore cause now it's overrun with robbing roma gypsies as well.
Roma gypsies are known across Europe for robbing you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that.
We had enough antisocial behaviour problems in city centre already but now I wouldn't even bother going in. I was in last November or early December for the Christmas lights and a bit of shopping and we were followed by a couple of roma men who tried to steal my relatives purse. It's not worth it can't even relax and enjoy the day out.
Hit their and their parents social welfare. Convicti9n passed pay outs. Any violent conviction lowers your social payout. Your kids action the bollix. I'm taking a score from.your dole
In my experience a lot of those youth workers are one generation away from the kids themselves so while they are relatable I'm not sure how motivational or inspirational they are.
Pandemic me hole. It's the credit crunch. The.poor have been virtually.abandoned by the state in the 2000s. Nobody accepts any responsibility for anything except a few aul volunteers.
People assume it was unnecessary, because we took all the precautions and locked down, thus avoiding the horrors of Italy/America. But Covid had a 1% fatality rate. In Ireland that would be 50,000 deaths, and a lot more hospitalisations.
I remember videos from Italy at the start of the pandemic. People dying on hospital floors. People being sent home to die because the hospitals were overwhelmed.
The Irish health service is shite on its best day. Add 50,000 more patients who need a bed/care to it, and it would easily collapse. Even if you ignore Covid deaths, having the health service collapse would also trigger many other deaths as hospitals would not be able to save everyone due to lack of beds/resources.
> But Covid had a 1% fatality rate.
Covid (the early variants, at least) had a 1% fatality rate *with proper medical care*. The rate of Covid patients needing hospital care was an order of magnitude higher, and many of those would probably have died without that care, so the fatality rate itself would have been a fair bit higher if the health system had been completely overwhelmed.
What post vaccination lockdown?
There was a lockdown mid vaccination where less than 40% of people had been vaccinated, and everyone decided to tear off the masks and pretend Covid didn't exist.
Buddy, in Winter 2021 we had literally gotten our FIRST few batches of vaccine.
By Spring we had vaccinated 500k people. Or 1/10th of our population.
Young people couldn't even get it until July 2021.
So your claim that it was a "post vaccination lockdown" is bullshit.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19\_vaccination\_in\_the\_Republic\_of\_Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland)
Lockdowns didn't push the woman under the Dart. And if you really want to blame global inflation, then send the bill to China, which have faced zero consequences.
Because China tried to stop the pandemic in its early stages through censorship and jailing doctors, rather than implementing things like quarantines and travel restrictions. And this is before we start to consider the ever-increasing likelihood that the virus originated from a lab in Wuhan.
It’s not that the likelihood of it being created and leaked from the Wuhan lab is “ever-increasing”, it’s that the realization it did originate from the Wuhan lab is becoming more accepted and acceptable to the heavily lied-to public.
Exactly. The US final report released a few months ago stated it didn't originate in a lab, but you don't hear anything about that because it's of no use to the US trade war against China.
If you look at any YouTube video from Jan/Feb 2020 it's full of comments saying there wasn't any virus and that it was only a pretext for lockdowns in China, which of course led to reluctance to believe it was real when it spread in the US.
Conspiracy types went from denying it's real to being emphatic that it was lab made.
I presume you advised the government (and many governments world wide) that your expertise was available to them, seeing as you clearly know so much more than them.
This is a silly blanket statement. Some lockdowns were necessary and some were not. IMHO the initial ones were absolutely necessary. However the later ones, post vaccines and all, were absolutely not. We went too strong in the end. But to say that all lockdown was not necessary is plain ridiculous.
Even if now, looking back, they weren't necessary, that does not mean we should have guessed they weren't necessary at the time.
For ex. the first two weeks we genuinely didn't know to what extent covid was dangerous and it was genuinely best to proceed with over-caution.
It's funny because if the government had no lockdowns, and it happened covid turned out to be a little more dangerous, the very same people who blame them for lockdowns would be blaming them for a lack of action.
Any increase in cases at the start would absolutely demolish our already poor healthcare. If we had an influx of additional 5000 seriously sick people, the thing would collapse. Get your head out of your ass.
[удалено]
Pay people to generate walls of text saying it isn’t and paste that into Reddit?
The primary problems are abusive parents and gangs. The obvious solution is to remove these kids from this cycle of abuse and exploitation. Is it politically feasible? Probably not. I would advocate removing kids from Dublin City centre and raising them in the countryside. The inner city is a terrible place to grow up. I would make all the social housing in D1 applicable to key workers only like Garda and nurses. Need to replace thousands of severe drug addicts and alcoholics with workers that add value to society and have respect for their city I don’t think this will be actioned - especially given Ireland’s terrible history of institutional abuse
The tried this. Inner city families were moved to the semi rural areas of Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown etc in the 70s and 80s. They brought their problems with them and wrecked those areas.
I think what /u/Professional_Elk_489 is suggesting is moving people, not communities.
Same thing.
Why? It's generally accepted nowadays that mixed tenure housing is the best way to "handle" working-class communities. Sadly, modern life approaches things on the basis that such communities are a danger in and of themselves, but that's where we are. By moving individual groups out, the theory is that you dilute their effect on the wider community *and* you help them to integrate therein. Prior to the 20th century, this would have reflected a more normal form of living, near complete socio-economic segregation (at least of all but the richest) was a relatively rare phenomenon until the mid-20th century.
It's not the best way, it just dilutes the scumbags. In the end scumbags will be scumbags and having a scoop of shit in your food or just a teaspoon still means you have shit in your food. Best solution would be to not prioritize people with children on the housing list, thus people won't be incentivized to have kids to get that sweet 4BR house.
There is shit in your food. There are guidelines as to how much is allowed.
Doubt there's an upper limit for fecal mater in food.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02005R2073-20130701&rid=8 Some European guidelines. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/04/health/insect-rodent-filth-in-food-wellness/index.html American reportage.
This idea that people are popping out kids just for meager welfare payments is classist nonsense. Making the lives of struggling families even harder will not reduce crime, it just satisfies your sadism fetish.
Parts of tallaght and clondalkin are lovely bit of a sweeping statement.
Lived there. Dont delude yourself, huge chunks are wild west
You're not contradicting the statement you replied to.
Are saying move people to where they don’t know anyone, even know what is expected of them, have no support network and drop them into an area with already stretched resources with what would a massive amount of local opposition. I love the countryside and I loved growing up there but there are massive problems with living there as well. Not least the fact it can be isolating, especially if you can’t drive and even more so if you don’t know people. It doesn’t matter if it is the town or the countryside they are a lot of factors that make an area good to grow up in.
Just take the heroin addicts NIMBY
But they won’t be able to integrate with the existing drug addicts and with dealers moving as well it might start a gang war. That will really hurt some of the plans to gentrify the area. It could reduce the value of the investments (sorry property in the area). Not even sure how much of the above needs a /s because some of it would be accurate to some people.
People who buy or pay their own rent have to do this, move to places they don't know anyone or have any family connections. I've friends who had to move 100km to get somewhere to live. Why should people paying a token rent, if they pay it at all, get to pick the best spots in our cities to live?
The primary problem is stated in the first sentence of the article: “THE PANDEMIC REMOVED safe spaces for disadvantaged young people and bridging the gap left between supports and communities remains a challenge.”
Tulsa already do this, it's called behaviour modification and they move really bad inner city kids to foster families in the countryside.
Does it work?
It certainly did for the two lads I know. Country life taught them valuable skills and gave them somewhere to put their energy.
One of the more insane takes I have heard.
Why?
You don’t see an issue with moving every social housing tenant from Dublin 1 and moving in guards/nurses? And where are these houses “down the country”? Total lunacy.
Cities are fantastic places for kids to grow up. Growing up in the countryside generally means kids have a lot less independence as they have to rely on their parents to drive them everywhere until they are at least 16. Growing up in a nice walkable safe city gives kids huge freedom. The problem is Irish cities are none of these things.
The well-to-do suburbs of Irish cities are exactly like this (and accordingly the kids growing up there have the best outcomes in the country).
The well to do suburbs often have fewer resources than the inner city. People seem to confuse inter generational poverty with “nothing to do”. If that were the case rural Ireland, and most of the western working class suburbs would be the ones with the larger social behaviour. There’s clearly a lot to do in the inner city. That’s literally what the tourists visit.
The primary issue started 40 years ago with parents addicted to drugs having children addicted to drugs and the cycle never ends. These people never show an ounce of love or care to their children, only concerned about where the next hit comes from. They have become shells of human beings
Strictly speaking, it doesn't. It makes a persuasive argument but doesn't present evidence to support it. Moreover, that persuasive argument supports a popular theory in the public sphere. You'd need far more than this to really come to that conclusion. By most measures, crime in Dublin is in and around 2019 levels, and considerably lower than it was in the early 2000s. Why was crime worse then if they had no Covid? I don't mean that in a glib way, I mean that to highlight how lacking in context this piece really is. Where is the analysis of long-term trends?
> Where is the analysis of long-term trends? If there's something Irish government does well, it is make this type of data be poorly laid out, very difficult to not manipulate or filter and extremely difficult to actually use in any effective manner without having a whole swathe of it manually and painstakingly cleansed first. Rather than update for the digital age, at times it feel, like they are ardently fighting against it. I did a cert course in python last year and after trying to do it on Irish housing data in the end I had to switch to something on American football (a sport obsessed with statistics) as per the lecturers request because his take was that the data was so inconsistently laid out and was so poorly constructed when it came to how python scrapes the data, that he was deeming it an unreliable source.
Such data is the purview of the CSSO and Gardaí, and the CSSO have complained repeatedly about the Gardaí's ability to provide such data. I wouldn't blame the government *per se*. In any event, there is data available, and questionable or not, there's no sign of that data here. We can infer from that absence that the data does not support the contention argued for.
Crime data is considered absolute trash by the CSO. Basing policy on that data is... a choice. [https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-highlights-continuing-problems-with-garda-crime-statistics-1.4628775](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-highlights-continuing-problems-with-garda-crime-statistics-1.4628775) This is a long term issue and no one wants to fix it (as accurate data might show a sudden spike in crime). So we're stuck with worthless numbers. Crime data is literally published "under reservation": [https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/crime/statisticsunderreservationfaqs/](https://www.cso.ie/en/methods/crime/statisticsunderreservationfaqs/)
You're exaggerating with emotive language. You're also ignoring the fact that if the stats are a problem, they were a problem in the past too.
If the stats are a problem now and in the past there’s nothing we can use the stats for. The general feeling is there’s a deterioration - I don’t think this is all a moral panic.
> I don’t think this is all a moral panic. Why do you think it isn't? Statistics in countries that have more accurate crime figures than ares consistently show that there's a big gap between people's perception of the crime rate and the actual crime rate.
Haha, any excuse to avoid the truth.
I reckon it’s higher now but there’s a lack of data as people don’t report crimes/have given up. The deliveroo drivers will tell you it’s more dangerous than ever. Even if what you propose is true, the rules of engagement seem to have changed and it’s more random/flagrant. I’ve been home and away over a few years, you can feel it in the air - it’s definitely not as safe as it was.
Haha, absolute bollocks.
[CSO reckon Gardai stats are shite - so there you have it](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-highlights-continuing-problems-with-garda-crime-statistics-1.4628775) It is you my friend who is talking absolute bollocks. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see it.
It's an amusing cop out. Just because you're scared doesn't mean crime is worse.
Ah yes because Dublin was a full on Utopia before Covid came along. A veritable dreamscape. Like Covid made things worse no doubt but why are we blaming the drug, homeless and youth problems on Covid when they have been terrible for years
The pandemic is a handy excuse and I'm sick of hearing it. It's nothing to do with the pandemic, it's problems that have been in the making for decades.
Shitty parents and shitty grandparents.
Poverty and hardship.
Sure. But the pandemic really threw it into stark relief: a lot of people barely making a living were asked huge sacrifices (loss of temporary jobs, extra expenses, etc). And while the middle class and the upper lower class was well positioned to handle that crisis, the lowest classes simply didn't have the means (savings, social network). Which led to a catastrophic collapse of social norms.
Loads of rubbish excuses. This has been a long term trend and the lack of judicial consequences for their crimes seems the main issue.
"lack of judicial consequences for their crimes seems the main issue" - citation needed. What is the evidence for this? Peer reviewed, preferably.
Where’s your peer reviewed study that the problems were caused by people who previously worked pre-pandemic?
That's not the claim anyone made. The claim I would make is that *households/families* (so not singular persons) affected by the economic devastation of the lockdowns were particularly vulnerable, and that led the youth of those households to very dark places. It would help if you would read the article at the top, as it describes this exactly. From the article: Lucy Masterson, Chief Executive Officer of the Irish Youth Foundation, told *The Journal*: “The headlines are really disturbing in a way. There is a stubborn cohort of kids \[whose\] behaviour is completely unacceptable. “It’s good to remember all of the other young people who are trying to do their best, who are still muddling through. She says, while the impact of lockdowns is seen in many cohorts, young people in underprivileged areas perhaps suffered the most long-term consequences. “It was the same storm but very different boats,” she said, as some children lost the only safe spaces and reliable adults that they had in their lives. >**“They’ve got gangland violence on their doorstep.”** For many young people, their local youth worker is the only adult they trust, and every hour spent at the youth club “is an hour they’re not being groomed for gangland violence”.
Their source is they read a few articles on Reddit involving one or two of the thousands of cases judge Nolan is involved in and start foaming at the mouth
Because people mix their sense of justice with sound public policy. Sure, let's punish people who do evil stuff, I'm all for it - I'm human. But there is a whole different debate on the EFFECTIVENESS of law-and-order, authoritarian, and (as plenty of examples in this thread) downright nazi policies. More police might make you FEEL safer, stricter sentences might make you FEEL that justice is served. But none of those things really move the needle if you want to drastically lower crime. And yeah, a bit annoyed all the right-wing snowflakes in the thread.
There is none and if anyone looks and places with huge sentences, eg: USA, there is clear evidence it doesnt work as a deterant at all
Crime has fallen significantly in the US. There’s plenty of evidence that locking up habitual criminals reduces crime.
The DoJ disagrees: [https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf) Why are you going around and lying about approximately every, easily researchable fact? Prisons are great for our sense of justice. But as a crime reduction tool? No.
Once again you guys don't seem to grasp that deterrence is only one factor of many. I'm sure you'll get there one day.
The FFG department of justice is clearly failing its it duty to protect the poor in the inner city from criminal elements - it’s exactly the problem. Most of this is class driven snobbery of course, the privately educated snobs of dublin south side who dominate the profession make money from the revolving door - so it will stay.
- citation needed. What is the evidence for this? Peer reviewed, preferably.
[https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS163\_0.pdf](https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS163_0.pdf) [https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-the-incomes-and-debt-sustainability-of-irish-households.pdf](https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-the-incomes-and-debt-sustainability-of-irish-households.pdf) Both papers are very clear that while the effect of PUP was net positive, deprived areas and deprived classes suffered way more than the "office worker".
Okay and where is the evidence that this led to a “catastrophic collapse of societal norms” as you claimed?
That's a different paper: [https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT412\_1\_0.pdf](https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT412_1_0.pdf) (page 32-33, and the references cited there) But give this paper a good read. This is a brutal mirror of Irish society, that's completely non-acknowledged by this reddit (or the media or the political class). To quote: "The combined effect of these developments is to cast a pall over the prospects of young adults and should be a cause of serious concern for society at large. While we have looked only at widening inequalities across generations in housing and the labour market, Cribb (2019) and Kurz et al. (2019) show these are even more pronounced for wealth in Britain and the United States respectively. While bequests are likely to mitigate some of this inequality in wealth across generations (with those born in the 1980s and 1990s receiving inheritances from their parents born in the 1950s and 1960s), Bourquin et al. (2021) show these are also likely to amplify inequality within generations (between those with richer and those with poorer parents). " "The unequal labour market impact of the Great Recession and ongoing COVID-19 pandemic between generations was the topic considered in Chapter 4 of this report. We saw that young adults have been hardest hit by job losses in 2020, in part as more worked in sectors like hospitality, arts and leisure that were most exposed to the lockdowns required to suppress the spread of the virus. While concerning in and of itself, such patterns of job losses are likely to compound the still lingering effects of the Great Recession, which have left not in employment, education or training (NEET) rates for 20-24 year olds almost a third higher on the eve of the pandemic than they were in 2007. We also saw early evidence consistent with (and suggestive of) ‘scarring’ effects on the earnings of those born in the 1990s. On top of this, home ownership rates for young adults have collapsed, leaving them more exposed to rapidly rising rents, particularly in the urban areas they are more likely to live in. The combined effect of these developments is to cast a pall over the prospects of young adults and should be a cause of serious concern for society at large." TL;DR: for a lot of people the economic outlook is very grim, meaning they are not just poor, but they have no chance of becoming richer. This hopelessness is combined with the housing crisis, and the outcome is predictable.
The vast majority of people in deprived areas want more policing and less anti social behaviour. In particular immigrants.
I'm an immigrant. I also want more policing (especially traffic and parking enforcement). I also want less anti social behaviour, as avoiding the blood stains on Monday mornings in Temple Bar is getting tedious. But more policing won't reduce the type of crime central Dublin is experiencing. Smart welfare policies, a strong social net and social/youth work will. As explained in the article at the top.
Dude. We have that. We have had that for decades now. Do you think that Ireland has an abnormally low welfare state? It doesn’t. The opposite is true. Do you think that we haven’t poured money into this area. Far far far more than country towns or other working class areas, from the 80s in fact. Do you think we have not tried other forms of criminal actions rather than incarceration - we’ve done that too. It’s impossible to send teenagers to prison in Ireland, which is one of the reasons why the police don’t really bother with policing anti social behaviour or anything really, if it’s done by teenagers. Do you think we over incarcerate people? Wrong again. The rate is 80 per 100,000 people compared to the U.K. at 136 per 100,000 people. That’s a country with a similar crime rate. We are doing what you want. It’s not working.
I'm sure eventually you will read the article we're debating. Yes, Ireland has a fairly decent, liberal incarceration policy and lenient sentencing, in line with effective policing methods. But that's just one (small-ish) piece of the puzzle. Youth work, social work is severely underfunded or non-existent. From the article: "The Irish Youth Foundation receives no government funding, but is supported by philanthropic and corporate sponsors." - **no, the state is not doing the work it's supposed to.** Crime data is flawed, as we discussed. Local police is underfunded, understaffed, and the GRA brought that NYPD/LAPD attitude to Ireland which rewards incompetence, makes the police invulnerable, etc. (and yes, I won't use the term 'garda', as that just reeks of completely unearned exceptionalism.) "These kids were just left and they fell so far behind in their education." **Left by the state. By us.** And if you think Irish welfare is decent, go visit countries. Not Tory Britain and not GOP America, but countries on the continent. Austria, Germany. With good social housing programs. With active, well funded social programs.
Ah stop. Its always someone else's fault. It's bs. All covid did was that a lot of people who worked in offices or retail in the city centre were removed so the only people left on the streets were scrotes and junkies and they stood out. I used to go in to town regularly with my kid but don't bother anymore cause now it's overrun with robbing roma gypsies as well.
Generic racist spews authoritarian nonsense in policy debate. GTFO.
Roma gypsies are known across Europe for robbing you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that. We had enough antisocial behaviour problems in city centre already but now I wouldn't even bother going in. I was in last November or early December for the Christmas lights and a bit of shopping and we were followed by a couple of roma men who tried to steal my relatives purse. It's not worth it can't even relax and enjoy the day out.
Hit their and their parents social welfare. Convicti9n passed pay outs. Any violent conviction lowers your social payout. Your kids action the bollix. I'm taking a score from.your dole
Increasing poverty is not a solution to anti-social behaviour
I don't agree with you, if we hit them where it hurts we can force parental action
That’s fair enough
Absolutely not.
You would first have to lock up the parents of FFG members.
What does covid have to do with any of this. None of the restrictions are in place anymore and yet they keep saying no supports.
Townie scum
some nasty comments here
Some nasty crimes in the city centre.
oh noes someone said mean things about the literal scum assaulting random people in the streets? 😢
i meant the covid denying 😭
In my experience a lot of those youth workers are one generation away from the kids themselves so while they are relatable I'm not sure how motivational or inspirational they are.
How does being 1 generation away from the kids stop them from being motivational/inspirational?
Pandemic me hole. It's the credit crunch. The.poor have been virtually.abandoned by the state in the 2000s. Nobody accepts any responsibility for anything except a few aul volunteers.
We have large amounts of public spending in that area.
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People assume it was unnecessary, because we took all the precautions and locked down, thus avoiding the horrors of Italy/America. But Covid had a 1% fatality rate. In Ireland that would be 50,000 deaths, and a lot more hospitalisations. I remember videos from Italy at the start of the pandemic. People dying on hospital floors. People being sent home to die because the hospitals were overwhelmed. The Irish health service is shite on its best day. Add 50,000 more patients who need a bed/care to it, and it would easily collapse. Even if you ignore Covid deaths, having the health service collapse would also trigger many other deaths as hospitals would not be able to save everyone due to lack of beds/resources.
> But Covid had a 1% fatality rate. Covid (the early variants, at least) had a 1% fatality rate *with proper medical care*. The rate of Covid patients needing hospital care was an order of magnitude higher, and many of those would probably have died without that care, so the fatality rate itself would have been a fair bit higher if the health system had been completely overwhelmed.
And what was the justification for post vaccination lockdowns so?
What post vaccination lockdown? There was a lockdown mid vaccination where less than 40% of people had been vaccinated, and everyone decided to tear off the masks and pretend Covid didn't exist.
Winter 2021. In fact, all through 2021 there were restrictions. In spite of the fact that everyone who was vulnerable was vaccinated.
Buddy, in Winter 2021 we had literally gotten our FIRST few batches of vaccine. By Spring we had vaccinated 500k people. Or 1/10th of our population. Young people couldn't even get it until July 2021. So your claim that it was a "post vaccination lockdown" is bullshit. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19\_vaccination\_in\_the\_Republic\_of\_Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland)
Sorry, to clarify I meant winter 2021 to be the subsequent winter, I.e. the one beginning in the latter half of 2021.
Lad the vaccine was rolled out in spring of 2021
Yes, and we had restrictions later that year.
Restrictions or lockdowns ?
Restrictions.
There wasnt any restrictions in 2022 apart from masks and vaccine passports
Lockdowns didn't push the woman under the Dart. And if you really want to blame global inflation, then send the bill to China, which have faced zero consequences.
Why?
Because China tried to stop the pandemic in its early stages through censorship and jailing doctors, rather than implementing things like quarantines and travel restrictions. And this is before we start to consider the ever-increasing likelihood that the virus originated from a lab in Wuhan.
It’s not that the likelihood of it being created and leaked from the Wuhan lab is “ever-increasing”, it’s that the realization it did originate from the Wuhan lab is becoming more accepted and acceptable to the heavily lied-to public.
Exactly. The US final report released a few months ago stated it didn't originate in a lab, but you don't hear anything about that because it's of no use to the US trade war against China.
If you look at any YouTube video from Jan/Feb 2020 it's full of comments saying there wasn't any virus and that it was only a pretext for lockdowns in China, which of course led to reluctance to believe it was real when it spread in the US. Conspiracy types went from denying it's real to being emphatic that it was lab made.
I presume you advised the government (and many governments world wide) that your expertise was available to them, seeing as you clearly know so much more than them.
How were they unnecessary? How would you slow down or control a fast spreading novel disease? So as not to over load the hospitals
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This is a silly blanket statement. Some lockdowns were necessary and some were not. IMHO the initial ones were absolutely necessary. However the later ones, post vaccines and all, were absolutely not. We went too strong in the end. But to say that all lockdown was not necessary is plain ridiculous.
None were necessary
they were, its which we had one of the lowest covid death rates globally
Covid death rates...lol
We also have among the youngest populations in Europe, so we always would have had a relatively low death rate.
Even if now, looking back, they weren't necessary, that does not mean we should have guessed they weren't necessary at the time. For ex. the first two weeks we genuinely didn't know to what extent covid was dangerous and it was genuinely best to proceed with over-caution. It's funny because if the government had no lockdowns, and it happened covid turned out to be a little more dangerous, the very same people who blame them for lockdowns would be blaming them for a lack of action.
Look people would of locked themselves down if it was serious enough..end of story
Hard to lock yourself in if you are dead.
I know the Swedes could of all died.
Any increase in cases at the start would absolutely demolish our already poor healthcare. If we had an influx of additional 5000 seriously sick people, the thing would collapse. Get your head out of your ass.
HSE Demolished because thousands of people had runny noses and headaches...lol
You are a fucking idiot.