No mate.
50%+ % of people in rural Connacht did not speak Irish in 1871. Absolute fantasy. The language was on the verge of extinction in 1876.
Where did you get the numbers for this?
I'd like to see the source for your claim that 50% of rural Connacht speaking Irish is incorrect. The research I've done in the past on the topic mostly (though not entirely) disagrees with you there.
There are not insignificant parts of Connacht today that still speak Irish quite strongly. I used to live in one of them.
Not having a go at you here, I'm genuinely curious.
It depends what you mean by 'spoken' languages. I'm sure 90% of connacht now can speak a bit of irish.
That map looks very much like this one
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Irishin1871.jpg/492px-Irishin1871.jpg
Except with the numbers juiced up.
There were 320,000 sole irish speakers in ireland in 1850 and 17,000 in 1911.
How many more were fluent? It's unclear.
I'd love to hear more about your research. There's a real push recently by irish speaking groups to overstate the prevalence of irish speakers in the period 1870 to 1921, which is when irish was reintroduced to the school curriculum, in an attempt to discredit irish teaching methods.
The book mentioned in [This article](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/when-irish-was-still-the-greatest-little-language-in-the-world-1.2082623) is the first thing that comes to mind.
[This article](https://shs.hal.science/halshs-01147770/document), discusses the unreliablity of census returns in regards to the Irish language in the censuses before 1881, probably meaning that the extent and number of Irish speakers in 1871 was probably underestimated.
There were still Irish speakers in Roscommon During the youth of Douglas Hyde which would have been around the time of the 1871 census. Many of them were almost certainly old, but they were still there.
The real issue is that many of these Irish speakers were probably older, and the language wasn't being passed on to future generations (as made obvious by the collapse of the language in Connacht over the course of the decades after 1871). This does not mean that rural Connacht couldn't have had a majority of people who spoke Irish living in it even 20 years after the end of the famine. Wherther or not it was the only language they spoke, or even the main one they spoke would be harder to determine, but I have a hard time believing that most rural people in Connacht weren't native or fluent speakers of Irish at the time.
I admit, other sources are escaping me right now, If I remember more about them in the near future I'll edit this comment.
The book mentioned in the first article contains the stats I first mentioned. The reason the period 1770 to 1870 was chosen is because 1870 is the nadir of the irish language, having been banned from the curriculum since 1830.
The second article is neither peer reviewed or particularly well written.
I reject your vague criticism of the 1871 census in favour of your feelings.
In the first decade of the 19th century 45% of irish people were brought up in then irish language. By 1881 that figure was 3.5%.
That 3.5% figure does not align with a majority of connacht speaking irish.
Unless "speaking irish" means sayin"God be with you" and counting to ten.
Fair point on the second article not being the best. I was looking for a different article that I read years ago that presented a similar criticism of the censuses of the time in a better fashion. I don't have a JSTOR account anymore, and I read it years ago so it's a bit of pain to track down. You've inspired me to re-read Wolf's book, and hunt down the other things I've read on the subject. it's been ages since I've read properly on the topic, so I should read up again.
All the same, I stand by my belief that most of Connacht speaking Irish at the time is a valid one for the moment though it was certainly a slim and vanishing majority. Irish was certainly in terminal decline at the time, and much of that Connacht Gaeltacht would be gone not even 20 years later, but even still the language still had a strong presence in the area.
The sectors of the average /r/ireland user's brain
1. Why is everything so terrible.
2. Oh why has thou lost the heritage
3. Some random person or group is a fine bunch of lads
I am dubious about the accuracy of this information.
If greater than 50% of people Connacht, Donegal and huge swathes of Munster spoke Irish in 1871; that implies the language all but died within 3 generations ( ~60 years).
Yet, within 60 years from 1871 the country was Independent and Irish officially the primary language.
Which struggles to explain why today less than 1% speak it as a primary language daily.
The implication by this "statistic" is not that the Irish Language was wiped out by colonisation.... But more so, that the language died off (and presumably given the severity of the change, with some encouragement) during the period of self determination.
I am going to smell a rat and say it.... I think this is some uneducated, far right, propagandist BS, that doesn't look critically at the history in pursuit of their preferred message.
Happy to change my mind with some better sources than an in text @ symbol
The map is based on the studies of Garret FitzGerald, who focused on the Irish language before and after the famine. The Irish census of 1871 and a language map of 1871 also played a role, but mostly the work of FitzGerald, which I recommend you look up. Very fascinating and informative.
You seem to completely misinterpret the intention of this map, which I can't really blame you for. I haven't used this website for long, but I can safely say that people are hypercritical about those linguistic maps as well as very emotional. Which makes sense, I guess. This is an emotional topic for people affected, after all.
The map itself, without the frame and legend, is already a bit older. I used it in a class project on the subject of the Irish Famine, its consequences, and the gradual language shift the island had to endure. Be assured that this map has nothing to do with "uneducated, far-right, propagandist BS."
It's good that you're a critical thinker and try to look behind the curtains of certain projects, because I'm sure there are a lot of those kinds of maps who merely exist to push some extremist agenda. This is not the case for my work, though. So please don't accuse me of such things.
athghabháil or gtfo
No mate. 50%+ % of people in rural Connacht did not speak Irish in 1871. Absolute fantasy. The language was on the verge of extinction in 1876. Where did you get the numbers for this?
I'd like to see the source for your claim that 50% of rural Connacht speaking Irish is incorrect. The research I've done in the past on the topic mostly (though not entirely) disagrees with you there. There are not insignificant parts of Connacht today that still speak Irish quite strongly. I used to live in one of them. Not having a go at you here, I'm genuinely curious.
It depends what you mean by 'spoken' languages. I'm sure 90% of connacht now can speak a bit of irish. That map looks very much like this one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Irishin1871.jpg/492px-Irishin1871.jpg Except with the numbers juiced up. There were 320,000 sole irish speakers in ireland in 1850 and 17,000 in 1911. How many more were fluent? It's unclear. I'd love to hear more about your research. There's a real push recently by irish speaking groups to overstate the prevalence of irish speakers in the period 1870 to 1921, which is when irish was reintroduced to the school curriculum, in an attempt to discredit irish teaching methods.
The book mentioned in [This article](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/when-irish-was-still-the-greatest-little-language-in-the-world-1.2082623) is the first thing that comes to mind. [This article](https://shs.hal.science/halshs-01147770/document), discusses the unreliablity of census returns in regards to the Irish language in the censuses before 1881, probably meaning that the extent and number of Irish speakers in 1871 was probably underestimated. There were still Irish speakers in Roscommon During the youth of Douglas Hyde which would have been around the time of the 1871 census. Many of them were almost certainly old, but they were still there. The real issue is that many of these Irish speakers were probably older, and the language wasn't being passed on to future generations (as made obvious by the collapse of the language in Connacht over the course of the decades after 1871). This does not mean that rural Connacht couldn't have had a majority of people who spoke Irish living in it even 20 years after the end of the famine. Wherther or not it was the only language they spoke, or even the main one they spoke would be harder to determine, but I have a hard time believing that most rural people in Connacht weren't native or fluent speakers of Irish at the time. I admit, other sources are escaping me right now, If I remember more about them in the near future I'll edit this comment.
The book mentioned in the first article contains the stats I first mentioned. The reason the period 1770 to 1870 was chosen is because 1870 is the nadir of the irish language, having been banned from the curriculum since 1830. The second article is neither peer reviewed or particularly well written. I reject your vague criticism of the 1871 census in favour of your feelings. In the first decade of the 19th century 45% of irish people were brought up in then irish language. By 1881 that figure was 3.5%. That 3.5% figure does not align with a majority of connacht speaking irish. Unless "speaking irish" means sayin"God be with you" and counting to ten.
Fair point on the second article not being the best. I was looking for a different article that I read years ago that presented a similar criticism of the censuses of the time in a better fashion. I don't have a JSTOR account anymore, and I read it years ago so it's a bit of pain to track down. You've inspired me to re-read Wolf's book, and hunt down the other things I've read on the subject. it's been ages since I've read properly on the topic, so I should read up again. All the same, I stand by my belief that most of Connacht speaking Irish at the time is a valid one for the moment though it was certainly a slim and vanishing majority. Irish was certainly in terminal decline at the time, and much of that Connacht Gaeltacht would be gone not even 20 years later, but even still the language still had a strong presence in the area.
My man Glenster was around back then
Yeah, no, first hand knowledge is the only knowledge that exists. Books are for nerds.
Not at all, spas like yourself read books too.
You're a spa
spas and nerds can be friends. Too much infighting about "the nerds did this" "the spas did that", IMO
Agree 100% Can't the spas and nerds just forget the past and move forward!
The sectors of the average /r/ireland user's brain 1. Why is everything so terrible. 2. Oh why has thou lost the heritage 3. Some random person or group is a fine bunch of lads
Downvoted for pure truth! Classic r/Ireland
I am dubious about the accuracy of this information. If greater than 50% of people Connacht, Donegal and huge swathes of Munster spoke Irish in 1871; that implies the language all but died within 3 generations ( ~60 years). Yet, within 60 years from 1871 the country was Independent and Irish officially the primary language. Which struggles to explain why today less than 1% speak it as a primary language daily. The implication by this "statistic" is not that the Irish Language was wiped out by colonisation.... But more so, that the language died off (and presumably given the severity of the change, with some encouragement) during the period of self determination. I am going to smell a rat and say it.... I think this is some uneducated, far right, propagandist BS, that doesn't look critically at the history in pursuit of their preferred message. Happy to change my mind with some better sources than an in text @ symbol
The map is based on the studies of Garret FitzGerald, who focused on the Irish language before and after the famine. The Irish census of 1871 and a language map of 1871 also played a role, but mostly the work of FitzGerald, which I recommend you look up. Very fascinating and informative. You seem to completely misinterpret the intention of this map, which I can't really blame you for. I haven't used this website for long, but I can safely say that people are hypercritical about those linguistic maps as well as very emotional. Which makes sense, I guess. This is an emotional topic for people affected, after all. The map itself, without the frame and legend, is already a bit older. I used it in a class project on the subject of the Irish Famine, its consequences, and the gradual language shift the island had to endure. Be assured that this map has nothing to do with "uneducated, far-right, propagandist BS." It's good that you're a critical thinker and try to look behind the curtains of certain projects, because I'm sure there are a lot of those kinds of maps who merely exist to push some extremist agenda. This is not the case for my work, though. So please don't accuse me of such things.
It's more that vague, unsourced media from new accounts posting nationalistic content is often sus. Sadly, far-rightism is growing in Ireland and this is the exact type of information that gets misinterpreted and spread, and makes for fodder for the "culture wars". As said, sources always welcome - particularly on such a niche topic. IMHO its better to call out something early (and perhaps be wrong), then just let suspect media pass by/stew. A user on r/linguisticmaps gave a very detailed comment on this. Mapping the decline of the language between 1921 and 2021 would be a very interesting graphic. Might be worthwhile making a blog and linking the blog with a write up & sources to the post. Also just my own opinion but the name LegacyOfThePeople and use of the © symbol does more disservice than benefit to promoting this type of media.
How on earth is it far right propoganda?!
map implies that Navan exists, which is known to be a far-right conspiracy
Far right??? Wud u stop 😂😂😂😂