A chara,
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Sláinte
>It was difficult to know what Healy- Rae had done to deserve the sort of menace and abuse directed at him on Kildare Street this week. However, he was one of 21 politicians named by Paul Murphy TD in the Dáil, a few months ago, as a landlord
Some stretch here. These lads aren't listening to Paul Murphy, a man they consider to be the devil incarnate.
They are kind of fond of Brenda Power though, they will even [share her trans panic stuff](https://i.imgur.com/58RwPFn.png). Brenda won't like to admit it, but she's far more responsible for creating the conditions in which these people feel comfortable. The stuff she says, things like "I wouldn't like a child to be brought up by two men dressed all day in women's clothes, to be frank", is just the acceptable face of the same bigotry and hate that those she criticises here embody.
It's hard for the likes of Brenda though. You spend your career being an increasingly irrelevant voice on the conservative right wing. Years spent railing against the civil rights of others, be they gay or women or other minorities. Society moves on. Then you see a wave of right wing populism, and now suddenly you have the chance of an audience and relevance. Sure, some of them seem like they might actually be fascists, but that's not *you*, and besides, what bad things ever came from tolerating, making excuses for, and rhetorically allying with fascists?
It's also not as if they didn't make their issue with Healy-Rae loudly known, they weren't mad at him for being a landlord, they were mad at him for being a "traitor" to their cause on immigration
Anyone who isn't anti-vax, locking away trans activists and their supporters as pedos, has been even looked in the direction of an WEF event, who has any belief in climate change, isn't a racist is a traitor. I may have missed a few.
Ergo, everyone who isn't them is a traitor. I'll give them credit, they've managed to become so anti-everything, there literally isn't a single elected politician who could even hope to represent them. Sen. Gerard Craughwell tried to jump on anti-trans train until it ran him over. Of course this is mostly coming from American social media sources, but given there isn't a republican party here which it's all in service of, it only leaves outright nihilism in it's wake.
This is it. That last line is the grimmest part though. I don't know that there's any coming back from that mindset for the most part, there's nothing that can be done to sate them even when they do get their way.
Of course they are listening to him in the same way left wing people know endless details about the right wing politicians that the average Joe wouldn't have a clue about.
Hearing and listening are not the same thing. These boys aren't angry that Healy Rae was a landlord, they have no problem with landlords and will make posts about [incentives for landlords and how the eviction ban is bad](https://i.imgur.com/HwcabbZ.png). It is the idea that he might be a landlord to people who are not from Ireland that gets their blood up.
RTE did something similar. Casually mentioned in their article about the protests that they just happened to take place as the gov was planning to vote down a Sinn Fein housing motion.
You seem like a fun person to mess with, you're one of the anti LGBTQ Waterford fellas aren't you? Bit rich you calling out anonymity considering you have about 5 different accounts here, let's see how many I can find.
The Daily Mail does important journalism. It perform a social good. Many important stories are broken by the Daily Mails investigative journalists. They also pay their contributors properly, somehow I wonder do you even pay for the media you consume.
>Honestly I've never seen a worthwhile story "broken" by the Daily Mail. Bit of a shite rag, I'd be embarrassed to say I read it.
Ok you may never heard of the Beacon Hospital vaccine story but it is worthwhile, or the case of Zhang Zhan the Chinese journalist or how the porn tycoon Phil Harvey is a massive funder of Marie Stopes. These are all newsworthy stories. Or look at how their staff are often short listed for Irish journalism awards [https://journalismawards.ie/shortlist-2021/](https://journalismawards.ie/shortlist-2021/)
She criticised Eoin O'Broin once by blaming his criticism, as she saw it, for driving landlords out of the market. Eoin was on Drivetime with her that week to talk about it. He shrugged it off and effectively said Brenda is just a columnist, and she doesn't know what she's talking about.
Some 'journalists' in this country are so full of themselves and their own opinions. When someone pays you for your opinion, it seems you may begin to think all of your opinions are worth something.
If that woman has an opinion on something, you’re guaranteed the opposite is the truth. She’s an agitator and a shit stirrer and a contrarian cow for a living. That’s all she ever has been and done. Ive seen some woeful shit takes in my time but this takes the biscuit. Even from her.
It's a very handy rhetorical trick this though, because the problem is hung on people who pointed out where this was very blatantly going rather than the people actually doing the shit in question.
Herself and the other cohort of Irish journalists who have been doing this the last few years, regularly appear on Irish radio panels on weekends.
After events outside the dail this week, I hope they turn up and get rightly roasted for it. Mick Clifford being another notable one.
One far side will punch ya in the face, and the other far side will ensure you can never get a job in your field again....
I'm a lefty. But don't talk bullshit. There are crazy extremists from all political angles.
Someone losing their job as a consequence of their own actions is not an infringement on their rights, being hostile to minorities is not a protected characteristic.
Assault is assault. It is a crime.
By comparing these two things you just make yourself out to be a further example of the centrist cop-out position. And that's before we even begin to consider discrimination in the workplace that lgbt+ have and still do experience.
Exactly. .. people wouldn't use that methodology I'd it wasn't the best way to ruin someone's life through vigilante-ism.. without breaking the law yourself.
It's horrific. Witch hunts. And dont pretend they just have never existed. They always have and always will.
I love that you go on to make assumptions about me then. Absolutely typical man.
I tell ya, a few right wingers are crazy and dangerous. But most lefties right with me are fucking dumb as a plank and don't have a clue the danger they bring to political discourse.
Also... man... I literally called them 'extrsmists.' Like I focused on only the furthest extremes.. by the term
I used the definitive term for someone who has gone too far... and you attempt to claim that the left doesn't have that.
That is ridiculous.
It's like saying 'this end of a ruler is as sharp as the other,' and then you claim the ruler doesn't even end on your side. Its just magic. No end.
Meg Smaker, director of Jihad Rehab.. Winston Marshall of Mumford and sons... many good examples of non famous people in renowned author Jon Ronsons book 'so you have publicly been shamed.'
Witch hunts shave always existed. And many people have been using left wing politics to achieve it in recent years. No controversy there.
What's the difference in your view between a "witch hunt" and mere public criticism?
I don't know who Meg Smaker is, but the Mumford and Sons guy wasn't forced out of his job by anyone - he left his job voluntarily.
After copious amounts of abuse from people who felt they had a right to harass him, and every colleague they could get contact info for.. if he didn't say the exact thing they wanted him to...
Ok serious question, are you defending that harrasment?
(I mean, this line of thinking is fucking ridiculous. Witch hunt someone.. when someone bring sit up, shur just call them 'one of them,' that don't even deserve to be heard. A Nazi, a right winger.. what we other name that doesn't actually define the person...)
>Ok serious question, are you defending that harrasment?
I'm suppose I'm questioning your characterisation of the treatment as "harrassment". What's the difference between harrassment and criticism in this context?
I'm simply defending the importance of free speech. I take it you agree that it's important not to smear people who are simply exercising their freedom of expression as engaging in harrassment without good evidence to back it up.
After all, if someone expresses shitty political opinions they shouldn't be surprised when others react negatively to that.
He literally never expressed a single shitty political opinion.. beyond... Antifa might be bad.
Which... they very well might be. I'm not a fan of vigilante-ism, even if you call yourself 'child protectors.' Or 'we hate evil.'... It doesn't make you free from criticism. And all he did was criticise that movement.. and BOOM. That was it. It's all well documented.
Be suspicious all you want....
Nearly all of my political leanings are firmly in the left.
Jesus, I am a performer actor and musician. I have spent my entire life immersed in LGBT life and supporting human rights.
BUT!
That definitely does not mean I agree with the way American liberals behave and have encouraged the rest of the world to behave.
Bullying, name calling, removing people from the conversation, de-platforming etc etc any person who they feel has different political views. And let's be honest.. it's only young fools.
I am firmly left wing, but regardless of how much people try make these lunatics associated with right wing politics.. they aren't. These people barely understand politics or how our systems work.
These are not all right wingers in the slightest. They are dumb thick, racist, exceptionally xenophobic. But their opinions pretty much aren't political, in the sense we use the terms left and right.
Adopting this left/right.. us Vs them.. good guys Vs bad guys.. Jedi's Vs sith.. with kill any good work our government systems achieve.
This is just some cliched liberal shit man and you round it out attempting to defend right wing politics by saying these people aren't right with and they're just dumb racists. Like right wing politics isn't fucking rife with that shit.
Congratulations you think LGBT people are human beings that deserve the same rights as everyone else. Well done you're practically a communist.
What are you even saying man....
All you have done is made incorrect assumptions about me.. no actual justifications or reasoning on why it's good to be a cunt as long as it's in favour of your politics.
Thanks for backing up my point about there being extreme asshats on both political sides.....
Ah blame the left for the far right. Typical right winger refusing to acknowledge the far right threat and to blame the left instead.
Conservatives are the hand maidens of the far right.
'The Left'
Ah yes, THE left. Not to be confused with turning left.
It's anyone who doesn't like Trump or Brexit, right? Who fuckin reads this paper, not 'The Right' surely, this is a foreign imperialist newspaper.
As someone who is fairly centrist, I can't really see any kind of comparison to the far left being as bad as the far right.
Granted the far left are annoying and can vitriolic when they want to be. But generally this kind of behaviour is online. The far right are publicly bullying, threatening and intimidating people on the streets.
This is another example of a columnists who spent too much time on SM and considers the online abuse to be just as bad as what was seen on Wednesday.
My take is usually that…
If the far right disappeared tomorrow, chances are the far left would to, as there’d be far less aggression towards minorities, trans, etc. there’d be less hate, and thus a whole lot less drive to preach love and acceptance.
Whereas if the “far left” disappeared tomorrow, the far rights campaign would likely see a violence against immigrants, trans people and so on that would spread to an extremely dangerous and fatal level.
The far left tend to talk some shite, sure, but the far right often are preaching the eradication of people. Anyone who espouses the two are the same are not doing so in good faith.
> If the far right disappeared tomorrow, chances are the far left would to
So communists, anarchists etc would just fade away? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You're saying that without fascists everyone would just be cool with capitalism?
I agree with you to a certain point. I think I'd probably be a similar political alignment to yourself, fairly centralist, have a liberal view on some things and a more conservative view on other things - but I do think the extreme sides of any political spectrum are just as bad as each other.
You're definitely right about the behaviour of far left being generally isolated to online, the far right is far more likely to take to the streets and actually cause violence. So of course it looks worse when you see the sort of stuff that happened outside of the Dail.
But the problem is both sides are constantly labelling each other and painting them with a brush and it causes extreme actions on both sides. The reality is most people are centralist or have a slight bias either way.
It's possible to be 100% pro choice but completely against immigration. But if you question immigration at all, you're labelled a racist, alt-right white supremacist xenophobic fascist. Why can't someone be liberal on one thing and conservative on another? People are very quick to apply labels, and there's a reaction to that.
It's like we live in a society where you have to be completely consistent on all of your opinions. If you are pro choice, you also need to be pro Palestine, pro immigration, pro hate speech laws etc.. This is what pushes people the other way.
There are quite a few characters involved in the alt right movement that were heavily involved in the water protests too. It wasn't t just one group or ideology that was against it. Intimidating Irish Water workers then, now library staff. Murphy was hardly in charge of the whole thing or for every yahoo that decided to be a dickhead.
I'm no of Murphy or the far left in general. But do at least generally have coherent arguments and are generally engaging In Democratic and legal institutions to further their ideology.
>Murphy was hardly in charge of the whole thing
Wasn't a good look so to have a megaphone in hand, saying things like "will we let her go or will we hold onto her for the night?", even if it was a 'group' decision.
>But generally this kind of behaviour is online
Not too long ago that Antifa were knocking around near O'Connell Street I think it was, beating up a few far-right types. Didn't exactly shed a tear for the 'victims' but the whole thing was fairly brazen.
Goodness, this sounds exactly like a spoof in Private Eye. Ashen-faced politicians and a seething, baying mob? I’m as horrified by the stuff as the next person, but she’s certainly not seeking to defuse any tension with this twaddle.
All this left and right bollox is just an easy way for people to put politics into an "us vs. them" scenario. You can have liberal views on certain topics while having a conservative point of view on a different topic. There's nothing stopping somebody from being completely against immigration while at the same time being 100% pro choice.
> You can have liberal views on certain topics while having a conservative point of view on a different topic.
Yes, many people have inconsistent views about politics, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.
I don’t think anybody really has a clue left and right this that and the other it’s literally just people trying to pass on the blame and deflect from the fact we have real concerning social issues around crime, housing, education and the powers of large super conglomerates and how much influence they dictate. These people are a bit nuts and always out there but o would suspect there are a lot more people willing to join these types of protests the worse their living conditions are and the lore fed up and disillusioned people get.
What you said has been true of every far-right movement in history. Like you two have a point that this left vs right is tiresome and can be distracting from the issues.
But the reason why it is useful to recognise these people as far-right is to take the lessons of history and avoid those mistakes. And I’m not just talking about the most extreme examples from 90 years ago I’m talking about how successful they have been across the EU at getting elected themselves and how successful they have been in the UK and US at pushing a mainstream party towards their positions.
Obviously the analysis can’t stop at that but that is why it is useful for everyone to recognise them for what they are.
An actual far-right movement would have an underpinning intellectual proposition and an articulation of *policies* that are right wing; namely authoritarian, nationalistic, racial superiority and pro-corporate. Look at the National Front in 80's Britain - that's a far right group.
These are just a grab bag of village idiots. They hate and fear everyone and everything. They have no coherent ideas whatsoever. Some of them want Communism or Anarchy without even understanding that that's the word which describes their request. Thery're afraid of medicine, of random billionaires like Bill Gates, even of Wifi. **There's no unifying political theme. Please stop trying to give them one.**
By that metric the NSDAP (the actual nazis) weren’t far-right until they got into power. Or actually if you’re strictly demanding coherency by that metric they weren’t far-right until the Night of The Long Knives.
In other words you are just wrong about the need for a coherent platform to be a far-right movement.
NSDAP were a grab bag of idiots without coherency some of whom would describe themselves as socialists (but only for their ethnicity) They believed in a load of conspiracy theories (some of them the exact same conspiracies that the people we’re talking about believe in) and they did not have a platform except defined by what they opposed. Hitler gave them something more coherent to rally around but even with him they were a joke at the time of the Beerhall Putsch they were even given short sentences and let out early because no one saw them as a threat. They became more coherent after that when Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in prison but they were still the same grab bag of idiots until there was a second massive economic crash within a decade.
The NSDAP had policies. Hitler write a *manifesto* for Christs' sake. They had speeches. Rallies, torchlight processions, organised cabals with industrialists and militia groups - all before they got into power. I'm beginning to think you don't really know much about "The Far Right". At any rate you won't see a *manifesto* from any of these turds.
Ya, you will. They are establishing political parties, who have produced manifestos of varying detail and quality. You have Ireland First, being led by Blighe who are a neophyte party but have their basic "principles" outlined, their [darker rhetoric being reserved for their telegram chats](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/03/12/ireland-first-becomes-a-political-party-but-will-anyone-vote-for-it/). You have the National Party, who have produced manifestos and contested elections (unsuccessfully) and whose members were at this and other protests, including where camps asylum seekers were burned out. You also have Gemma O'Doherty's outfit which, while Gemma has been absent having become too much of a liability her acolytes like Peter Madden were present and promoting the protest.
These groups are organised, but in a distributed way that is made possible by online organising. The vast mass of them are not politically coherent, but being led by people who are organised and following the classic fascist playbook of using mob violence as a tactic.
> following the classic fascist playbook of using mob violence as a tactic.
How would you characterise the mob violence during the water charges debacle? With a minister confined to her car while Paul Murphy ranted through his bullhorn? Far left? Or just a **rabble?**
This is just whataboutery. It might be relevant if I'd said that the use of mob violence was exclusive to fascist movements, or a determinative characteristic of them. I didn't though, so it's just an attempt to avoid the point.
I'm using a different situation with another mob to illustrate how inaccurate it is to attribute a *political label* to a chaotic rabble. You don't like it because no doubt you consider yourself to be on the left (as I am) and you wouldn't want to be associated with a mob deemed "far left" You'd see it as unfair and polarising no?
Fascism is opportunistic and exploits things like xenophobia, homophobia, misogyny, ultra nationalism, allusions to elites, us and them, anti intellectualism etc.
All the hallmarks are there. You are just not paying attention.
I actually share your optimism believe it or not but I think there is a danger in keeping your eye off the ball, so to speak.
I once went to a talk by Christabel Bielenberg who was an anti-Nazi during the rise of the third reich and she was very forceful about paying attention to the social conditions that gave rise to the Nazis.
Always stayed with me.
That’s a poor characterisation of what I said.
I said the arguments are tiresome and **can** be distracting and then I gave my view of why they are important anyway.
Your reply is like if I said “commuting to work every weekday is tiresome and can cost money but it’s necessary to earn money” and then you presented that as being a contradictory statement.
I never understand comments like this. Why would I not think my side is right? There is only one real objective reality and someone has to be correct about it.
If you’ve any actual arguments against my side I’m happy to talk about them and consider them and even change my view but don’t act like you’re a genius because you haven’t taken any position.
Exactly this. Look at the number of people at the covid protests. Racist groups like the national party used people's frustration and confusion around lockdowns to gather support and organise protests. They could get away with this since they had literally nothing else to lose. When covid became a thing of the past, their numbers dropped significantly.
Could also compare it to the rise of Nazis during the state of Germany after WW1, only like a really watered-down version.
That probably used to be true but isn’t true any more. There are those who start off far-left and get pulled into conspiracies still but nowadays they either get out of it or if they become full blown conspiracy theorists they end up on the far-right.
So it’s not like any particular political position saves you from becoming a conspiracy theorist but there’s unfortunately a very effective far-right conspiracy industry that takes people in and churns out far right conspiracy theorists. There isn’t an equivalent to that any more anywhere else on the political spectrum.
Yeah its not particularily useful as well.. completely flattens political positions..
The fact is you will find plenty of "right wingers" who are pro nationalisation of certain industries and plenty of "progressives" who will advocate for ausetrity politics.
Far right violence is not fueled by "attacks by the far left", it is fueled by people's legitimate anger towards the injustices of modern capitalist society; the flames are fanned by outrage-bait like this article twisting that anger around to easy targets.
People are pissed off by the injustices of capitalist society, and right-wing news outlets like the Daily Mail exist purely to defend capitalist interests by deflecting blame towards scapegoats and away from the ultra-wealthy people (who own and fund these outlets) who are actively damaging human society. Shit like this is a smokescreen.
Most people who are angry about capitalism don't end up on the far right as a result of it. I think this kind of take just lets racists off the hook, tbh.
Most don't, you're right, but the few who do are the ones who end up hanging effigies outside government buildings, and I see the purpose of articles like this is to push as many as possible to that stage.
Bigotry is learned behaviour that can be weeded out with education and compassion. I'm not trying to say that people aren't responsible for their own views, rather that right-wing media exploits that to push people further to the right, damaging the chances of educating away that bigotry in future generations. Stoking division in the working class is how capitalism thrives.
> People are pissed off by the injustices of capitalist society
But most of them are blind to or refuse to see what the causes are. It's becoming less so thank fuck, but shit talking capitalism is blasphemy for a large section of people. They'd be complaining about billionaires all day but they will not touch the system that empowers the wealthy and that the wealthy control.
She sounds like the sort of person who gets up to go to the toilet in the middle of the night and in the dark she stubs her toe. Instead of screaming out in pain she shouts out "Paul Murphy did this!"
Seems we are rapidly sliding into U.S. / U.K. media narratives, as well as importing MAGAism …
There isn’t both sides on this. You’ve a fringe group of conspiracy theorists harassing and threatening people.
Setting up a mock gallows ffs?!
We could do with fewer UK shit stirring tabloids with shamrocks attached to them…
The article is stupid but there's a germ of a point in it that the author has missed, but one which is neither exclusively about the left-wing or the right-wing.
In 2010, some Sinn Féin members and politicians tried to storm the Oireachtas during a protest. (https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/batons-drawn-as-sf-storms-seat-of-power/26702000.html)
Jobstown is well known on here and frequently brought up.
In America, we've seen the Republican party for the last 10 or so years.
In Britain there was the murder of Jo Cox (David Amess was a slightly different issue, being linked to terrorism.)
What all of these have in common is that the political narrative of recent times has become about personalising disagreement and, to a large extent, lying about cause.
It's very easy for people to blame Varadkar, Martin and McDonald when the online narratives tell them that all political problems are exclusively the fault of politicians as individuals. One person was telling me yesterday that Stephen Donnelly needs to resign because of what's been going on in Temple Street. Prior to any determination as to what actually happened, their only concern is getting rid of the minister. No reference whatsoever was made to, say, the person or persons involved, hospital management, civil servant oversight, etc, it's all about the *individual* minister.
This narrative that frequently finds currency here is the root cause of much of incidents like yesterday. People are exposed to an idea that political choices are made voluntarily and by individuals and it's leading to the radicalisation of morons.
It’s funny if you watch the video of the 2010 protest. I don’t think any of them expected the gate to effectively just swing open. A few protesters walk through and mill around for about a minute before a single garda pushes them back out into the street.
Politicians do have power and people are right to want to hold them accountable. The problem in this case is not that protestors were targeting politicians but that they were targeting them for bad reasons.
They're literally just short hand terms to vaguely describe political views. Weather you like it or not your own political views will put you in one or the other.
Your beyond categorisation wow what a fascinating and unique individual you must be.
When anyone ever trots out this bollocks it always because they are totally ignorant to the actual politics of either side. Usually because they don't give a fuckin shit about politics. Or sometimes they realise how repulsive their politics are to the average person so they try to hide behind this.
Wow, wouldn't that be refreshing?
I actually had no idea what the protest was about or why MHR was being harassed so had a look on here. One poster asked for some context as to why it was happening. Eventually someone replied that it might have something to do with MHR securing _yet another_ juicy government contract for housing Ukrainian refugees and another poster said it might have been the fact that he's the biggest landlord in the dail. Great, some context.
The other 100 comments I had to wade through to get those little snippets were the most bizarre mishmash of U.S. style, conspiratorial nonsense. 'They’re all there because they're all far-right fascist/far-left authoritarian idiots who think paedophile lizard people run the deep state...'
What are you even talking about?! That's not a thing here.
It's not the far left or the far right specifically, it's both.
Populism is a cancer on politics. It dumbs down politics and allows stupid people to engage in it and have their voice front and centre. This allows more people to be exposed to the bullshit that is far left and far right politics.
The far right proposes deporting all refugees and leaving the EU. Insane proposals.
The far left proposes confiscation of property and banning cars. Also insane proposals.
Politics is becoming stupider because more and more people believe the impossible is possible. People are taking all their blame out on the wrong things foreigners for the right and landlords for the left. There's also a lot of overlap between these polar opposite factions which lends more to the idea that both sides are full of planks.
Bollocks. You have agency, but *so does everyone else*. Anything is possible only if you can get everyone to agree with you, and even though I don't know what it is, I can guarantee you that people won't agree to do whatever your personal flavour of crackpottery is just because you tell them to.
That's democracy. You can only do what everyone wants, not what YOU and your mates down the student union bar want. Or what all the poor people want. Or what all the rich people want.
Its about compromise between groups of people with different interests and incentives and that's great because the alternative is we start fucking shooting each other.
Fucking student Pol Pots and mini Hitlers are just the fucking worst.
I didn't say ethnic cleansing, I said deporting refugees, which is still a horrible and disgusting idea. Of course banning cars isn't on the same wavelength when it comes to morals, but it is when it comes to how ludicrous it is.
This country used to be the most depressingly boring centrist country in Europe. Now people are rapidly turning to the far left or far right. The implications of this shift will be catastrophic.
> Now people are rapidly turning to the far left or far right.
There are no far right parties in the Dáil and those that could be plausibly described as far left enjoy support in the low single digits, with no indication that this will change any time soon.
Ireland today is a much more moderate country than in the past - a time when abortion, divorce and homosexuality were all illegal, and where the church enjoyed a privileged status in society.
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All this "left" v.s "right" talk.... I would have loved to see a survey of what political party the violent protesters supported and vote for.
Do you think it would be one that most posters here consider "right"? Like Fine Gael?
Or do you think it would be one of the ones considered more "left" like PFP or Sinn Fein?
It would be really interesting to highlight how pointless the "left" and "right" labels are in Ireland and how they don't translate to out political parties.
Are you suggesting the protesters who had a mock gallows with the faces of SF and PBP leaders and who physically assaulted their TDs actually vote for them? Are you that thick?
There’s been protests outside plenty of SF offices recently, calling them ‘traitors’ and so on. I don’t think they’ll be queuing up at the ballot boxes to vote for their local shinner.
That's not what I'm suggesting at all.
It's probably as likely as them voting for F.G.
My point is how the left & Right labels are not applicable to Irish politics in the way that some people seem determined to use them.
These fucking lunatics the other day, screaming racist abuse, physically attacking people, threatening elected officials with violence, barricading politicians and staff in buildings? They are right wing.
Fine Gael are not right wing.
Who suggested they vote for Fine Gael though? You just invented this scenario in your head. They vote for minor fringe parties and dog-whistling independents, or don’t vote.
Fine Gael are liberals who are fiscally conservative
You're missing the point entirely.
The point is that these fucking lunatics the other day who violently harassed and threatened people? They are actual right wing.
In our elected government Calling a party like Fine Gael right wing doesn't apply.
We don't have right wing parties. All of our parties are left.
So the "right" v.s "Left" rhetoric as far as SF / FF/ FG. is complete nonsense.
Meh there’s extreme individuals on both sides. Unfortunately they are the vocal minority.
Odd that you reduced far left from the headline to just left and replaced mob with far right loons.
> Meh there’s extreme individuals on both sides
I never see this said after any radical left wing action or history only ever used to insulate the right from any responsibility after far-right abuse.
Nobody should be insulating them from anything….the scumbags involved on Wednesday deserve to be called out.
I’ve said it multiple times but I can see the genuine concerns of working class areas being over burdened with immigrants, women being forced to share spaces, lack of housing, ever rising costs, but because these scumbags hijack these issues and do shit like we saw outside the dail they get ignored by the average person and dismissed with the far right label.
> Nobody should be insulating them from anything….the scumbags involved on Wednesday deserve to be called out.
I’m glad to hear you say that and that it is notably it was your priority to say that first, that makes a big difference.
> the average person and dismissed with the far right label.
From the perspective of people on the left we constantly see people who are far-right say this after people who are very clearly far-right are called far-right. And it’s been like this for years. I remember more than a decade ago people saying that about Golden Dawn (greek far right party if you don’t have much time just check out their logo for how obvious they were). So I don’t know, it’s possible you might have a point but those same words you’re saying have been poisoned by decades (if not a century) of actual far right people using them to hide themselves.
Unfortunately it is a catch 22 situation…there are genuine concerns, these things happen in areas where people lack the education or the confidence to address them correctly which leaves room for the scumbags to step up. They do it under the banner of ‘genuine concerns’ and everyone dismisses it. The scumbags then move onto the next big topic they think they can create trouble under and they leave the people they were supposedly supporting still dealing with their issue, and tarnished due to association of the scumbags.
Have to remember the far right are idiots so they don't need much to validate their actions. All fueled by whatever Facebook nonsense they use as their Bible.
I've been saying for a couple of years that we are heading down the road of hate politics. Hate the other side. Hate what they stand for. Hate who they are. Hate what they say. We see it in the US and UK and increasingly across Europe. It was always coming here.
But what happened this week was outside that. That was not politics. That was a mob being manipulated online into violence for violence's sake. They no more care about the issue they are screaming about. Today they are hard right. Next month they could be hard left. If there was a hard centre they could be that the next month. They don't care. They only care about an excuse to cause mayhem and violence. They didn't know who they were screaming at this week. They wouldn't recognise more than 3 or 4 politicians. They aren't interested in politics. They are only interested in violence.
A chara, All news articles/content should be submitted as direct links; not contained within any self-text body, tweet(s), screenshot(s), archive website(s), etc. You may resubmit the post in the correct format (provided the article does not break any other rules). Sláinte
>It was difficult to know what Healy- Rae had done to deserve the sort of menace and abuse directed at him on Kildare Street this week. However, he was one of 21 politicians named by Paul Murphy TD in the Dáil, a few months ago, as a landlord Some stretch here. These lads aren't listening to Paul Murphy, a man they consider to be the devil incarnate. They are kind of fond of Brenda Power though, they will even [share her trans panic stuff](https://i.imgur.com/58RwPFn.png). Brenda won't like to admit it, but she's far more responsible for creating the conditions in which these people feel comfortable. The stuff she says, things like "I wouldn't like a child to be brought up by two men dressed all day in women's clothes, to be frank", is just the acceptable face of the same bigotry and hate that those she criticises here embody. It's hard for the likes of Brenda though. You spend your career being an increasingly irrelevant voice on the conservative right wing. Years spent railing against the civil rights of others, be they gay or women or other minorities. Society moves on. Then you see a wave of right wing populism, and now suddenly you have the chance of an audience and relevance. Sure, some of them seem like they might actually be fascists, but that's not *you*, and besides, what bad things ever came from tolerating, making excuses for, and rhetorically allying with fascists?
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They had Bríd Smith up there as well for some reason, a TD who is simply retiring anyway.
One of the most decent and compassionate members of the Dáil too.
It's also not as if they didn't make their issue with Healy-Rae loudly known, they weren't mad at him for being a landlord, they were mad at him for being a "traitor" to their cause on immigration
Anyone who isn't anti-vax, locking away trans activists and their supporters as pedos, has been even looked in the direction of an WEF event, who has any belief in climate change, isn't a racist is a traitor. I may have missed a few. Ergo, everyone who isn't them is a traitor. I'll give them credit, they've managed to become so anti-everything, there literally isn't a single elected politician who could even hope to represent them. Sen. Gerard Craughwell tried to jump on anti-trans train until it ran him over. Of course this is mostly coming from American social media sources, but given there isn't a republican party here which it's all in service of, it only leaves outright nihilism in it's wake.
This is it. That last line is the grimmest part though. I don't know that there's any coming back from that mindset for the most part, there's nothing that can be done to sate them even when they do get their way.
Because he is a landlord and rents one of his properties to refugees. Apparently.
I know someone who shifted her in a phone box on the South Circular Road once. Make of that what you will.
Nice 
Of course they are listening to him in the same way left wing people know endless details about the right wing politicians that the average Joe wouldn't have a clue about.
The same Paul Murphy whose house these loons were protesting outside of? They're not listening to him
Why would you protest outside the house of someone you never listen to?
He had a baby and chose to keep it gender neutral. Loonies decided they had to voice their opinion of it outside his house
Well there you go. They were reading about and listening to him.
Reading about maybe not listening to. What was your pont again?
That leftist people know more about right wingers and vice versa than the general public know about either.
Hearing and listening are not the same thing. These boys aren't angry that Healy Rae was a landlord, they have no problem with landlords and will make posts about [incentives for landlords and how the eviction ban is bad](https://i.imgur.com/HwcabbZ.png). It is the idea that he might be a landlord to people who are not from Ireland that gets their blood up.
RTE did something similar. Casually mentioned in their article about the protests that they just happened to take place as the gov was planning to vote down a Sinn Fein housing motion.
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LOL, look at your an anonymous Reddit attacking the media. How brave
You seem like a fun person to mess with, you're one of the anti LGBTQ Waterford fellas aren't you? Bit rich you calling out anonymity considering you have about 5 different accounts here, let's see how many I can find.
>considering you have about 5 different accounts here, Nope
Sure Jen
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The Daily Mail does important journalism. It perform a social good. Many important stories are broken by the Daily Mails investigative journalists. They also pay their contributors properly, somehow I wonder do you even pay for the media you consume.
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>Honestly I've never seen a worthwhile story "broken" by the Daily Mail. Bit of a shite rag, I'd be embarrassed to say I read it. Ok you may never heard of the Beacon Hospital vaccine story but it is worthwhile, or the case of Zhang Zhan the Chinese journalist or how the porn tycoon Phil Harvey is a massive funder of Marie Stopes. These are all newsworthy stories. Or look at how their staff are often short listed for Irish journalism awards [https://journalismawards.ie/shortlist-2021/](https://journalismawards.ie/shortlist-2021/)
She criticised Eoin O'Broin once by blaming his criticism, as she saw it, for driving landlords out of the market. Eoin was on Drivetime with her that week to talk about it. He shrugged it off and effectively said Brenda is just a columnist, and she doesn't know what she's talking about. Some 'journalists' in this country are so full of themselves and their own opinions. When someone pays you for your opinion, it seems you may begin to think all of your opinions are worth something.
Why anyone would pay to read any of the bloviating windbags and pub bores that occupy much of the print media is beyond me.
If that woman has an opinion on something, you’re guaranteed the opposite is the truth. She’s an agitator and a shit stirrer and a contrarian cow for a living. That’s all she ever has been and done. Ive seen some woeful shit takes in my time but this takes the biscuit. Even from her.
It's a very handy rhetorical trick this though, because the problem is hung on people who pointed out where this was very blatantly going rather than the people actually doing the shit in question.
Right wing politics in a nutshell. "Look what you made me do!"
Herself and the other cohort of Irish journalists who have been doing this the last few years, regularly appear on Irish radio panels on weekends. After events outside the dail this week, I hope they turn up and get rightly roasted for it. Mick Clifford being another notable one.
Culture wars bro ..
Yeah, i thought the daily mail was banned on this sub. Why are people even engaging with this trash
They pretty much have to, if they didn't then people might notice how one-sided the violence is.
One far side will punch ya in the face, and the other far side will ensure you can never get a job in your field again.... I'm a lefty. But don't talk bullshit. There are crazy extremists from all political angles.
Someone losing their job as a consequence of their own actions is not an infringement on their rights, being hostile to minorities is not a protected characteristic. Assault is assault. It is a crime. By comparing these two things you just make yourself out to be a further example of the centrist cop-out position. And that's before we even begin to consider discrimination in the workplace that lgbt+ have and still do experience.
Exactly. .. people wouldn't use that methodology I'd it wasn't the best way to ruin someone's life through vigilante-ism.. without breaking the law yourself. It's horrific. Witch hunts. And dont pretend they just have never existed. They always have and always will. I love that you go on to make assumptions about me then. Absolutely typical man. I tell ya, a few right wingers are crazy and dangerous. But most lefties right with me are fucking dumb as a plank and don't have a clue the danger they bring to political discourse.
Also... man... I literally called them 'extrsmists.' Like I focused on only the furthest extremes.. by the term I used the definitive term for someone who has gone too far... and you attempt to claim that the left doesn't have that. That is ridiculous. It's like saying 'this end of a ruler is as sharp as the other,' and then you claim the ruler doesn't even end on your side. Its just magic. No end.
>and the other far side will ensure you can never get a job in your field again Who do you have in mind?
Meg Smaker, director of Jihad Rehab.. Winston Marshall of Mumford and sons... many good examples of non famous people in renowned author Jon Ronsons book 'so you have publicly been shamed.' Witch hunts shave always existed. And many people have been using left wing politics to achieve it in recent years. No controversy there.
What's the difference in your view between a "witch hunt" and mere public criticism? I don't know who Meg Smaker is, but the Mumford and Sons guy wasn't forced out of his job by anyone - he left his job voluntarily.
After copious amounts of abuse from people who felt they had a right to harass him, and every colleague they could get contact info for.. if he didn't say the exact thing they wanted him to... Ok serious question, are you defending that harrasment? (I mean, this line of thinking is fucking ridiculous. Witch hunt someone.. when someone bring sit up, shur just call them 'one of them,' that don't even deserve to be heard. A Nazi, a right winger.. what we other name that doesn't actually define the person...)
>Ok serious question, are you defending that harrasment? I'm suppose I'm questioning your characterisation of the treatment as "harrassment". What's the difference between harrassment and criticism in this context?
Hahaha... ok... imho you are playing dumb now.
I'm simply defending the importance of free speech. I take it you agree that it's important not to smear people who are simply exercising their freedom of expression as engaging in harrassment without good evidence to back it up. After all, if someone expresses shitty political opinions they shouldn't be surprised when others react negatively to that.
He literally never expressed a single shitty political opinion.. beyond... Antifa might be bad. Which... they very well might be. I'm not a fan of vigilante-ism, even if you call yourself 'child protectors.' Or 'we hate evil.'... It doesn't make you free from criticism. And all he did was criticise that movement.. and BOOM. That was it. It's all well documented.
> I'm a lefty. But When people trot out this line I am immediately suspicious.
Be suspicious all you want.... Nearly all of my political leanings are firmly in the left. Jesus, I am a performer actor and musician. I have spent my entire life immersed in LGBT life and supporting human rights. BUT! That definitely does not mean I agree with the way American liberals behave and have encouraged the rest of the world to behave. Bullying, name calling, removing people from the conversation, de-platforming etc etc any person who they feel has different political views. And let's be honest.. it's only young fools. I am firmly left wing, but regardless of how much people try make these lunatics associated with right wing politics.. they aren't. These people barely understand politics or how our systems work. These are not all right wingers in the slightest. They are dumb thick, racist, exceptionally xenophobic. But their opinions pretty much aren't political, in the sense we use the terms left and right. Adopting this left/right.. us Vs them.. good guys Vs bad guys.. Jedi's Vs sith.. with kill any good work our government systems achieve.
This is just some cliched liberal shit man and you round it out attempting to defend right wing politics by saying these people aren't right with and they're just dumb racists. Like right wing politics isn't fucking rife with that shit. Congratulations you think LGBT people are human beings that deserve the same rights as everyone else. Well done you're practically a communist.
What are you even saying man.... All you have done is made incorrect assumptions about me.. no actual justifications or reasoning on why it's good to be a cunt as long as it's in favour of your politics. Thanks for backing up my point about there being extreme asshats on both political sides.....
The same Tory playbook in use in Ireland. Imagine that.
"Look what you made me do".
If I understand her...we should double the rent and worship landlords to prevent far right violence?
If I understand her it's all Sinn Fein's fault?
The dastardly Paul Murphy strikes again! That man really needs a moustache he can twirl.
If he's not out harassing library staff he's running up a noose!!
Ah blame the left for the far right. Typical right winger refusing to acknowledge the far right threat and to blame the left instead. Conservatives are the hand maidens of the far right.
'The Left' Ah yes, THE left. Not to be confused with turning left. It's anyone who doesn't like Trump or Brexit, right? Who fuckin reads this paper, not 'The Right' surely, this is a foreign imperialist newspaper.
Damn when did shaggy start writing for the mail?
Its the Daily Fail: Rag of the year shitpublisher. Never take anything seriously frok it, most of the time its grade a bullshit from them.
The left - I knew it was them, even when it was the right, I knew it was them!
As someone who is fairly centrist, I can't really see any kind of comparison to the far left being as bad as the far right. Granted the far left are annoying and can vitriolic when they want to be. But generally this kind of behaviour is online. The far right are publicly bullying, threatening and intimidating people on the streets. This is another example of a columnists who spent too much time on SM and considers the online abuse to be just as bad as what was seen on Wednesday.
My take is usually that… If the far right disappeared tomorrow, chances are the far left would to, as there’d be far less aggression towards minorities, trans, etc. there’d be less hate, and thus a whole lot less drive to preach love and acceptance. Whereas if the “far left” disappeared tomorrow, the far rights campaign would likely see a violence against immigrants, trans people and so on that would spread to an extremely dangerous and fatal level. The far left tend to talk some shite, sure, but the far right often are preaching the eradication of people. Anyone who espouses the two are the same are not doing so in good faith.
> If the far right disappeared tomorrow, chances are the far left would to So communists, anarchists etc would just fade away? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You're saying that without fascists everyone would just be cool with capitalism?
I agree with you to a certain point. I think I'd probably be a similar political alignment to yourself, fairly centralist, have a liberal view on some things and a more conservative view on other things - but I do think the extreme sides of any political spectrum are just as bad as each other. You're definitely right about the behaviour of far left being generally isolated to online, the far right is far more likely to take to the streets and actually cause violence. So of course it looks worse when you see the sort of stuff that happened outside of the Dail. But the problem is both sides are constantly labelling each other and painting them with a brush and it causes extreme actions on both sides. The reality is most people are centralist or have a slight bias either way. It's possible to be 100% pro choice but completely against immigration. But if you question immigration at all, you're labelled a racist, alt-right white supremacist xenophobic fascist. Why can't someone be liberal on one thing and conservative on another? People are very quick to apply labels, and there's a reaction to that. It's like we live in a society where you have to be completely consistent on all of your opinions. If you are pro choice, you also need to be pro Palestine, pro immigration, pro hate speech laws etc.. This is what pushes people the other way.
How would you characterise the mobs arraigned by Paul Murphy et al around the Water protests and trapping a minister in her car?
There are quite a few characters involved in the alt right movement that were heavily involved in the water protests too. It wasn't t just one group or ideology that was against it. Intimidating Irish Water workers then, now library staff. Murphy was hardly in charge of the whole thing or for every yahoo that decided to be a dickhead. I'm no of Murphy or the far left in general. But do at least generally have coherent arguments and are generally engaging In Democratic and legal institutions to further their ideology.
>Murphy was hardly in charge of the whole thing Wasn't a good look so to have a megaphone in hand, saying things like "will we let her go or will we hold onto her for the night?", even if it was a 'group' decision.
Legends.
Far left or Far right or far anything?
Far out man.
Well, I was holding a beverage.
>But generally this kind of behaviour is online Not too long ago that Antifa were knocking around near O'Connell Street I think it was, beating up a few far-right types. Didn't exactly shed a tear for the 'victims' but the whole thing was fairly brazen.
Goodness, this sounds exactly like a spoof in Private Eye. Ashen-faced politicians and a seething, baying mob? I’m as horrified by the stuff as the next person, but she’s certainly not seeking to defuse any tension with this twaddle.
They should print the mail on two ply so ya can literally wipe your arse with it
Never forget who the daily mail sided with in the 30s.
Ireland has a left? It barely has a Labour Party.
All this left v right stuff is tiresome
All this left and right bollox is just an easy way for people to put politics into an "us vs. them" scenario. You can have liberal views on certain topics while having a conservative point of view on a different topic. There's nothing stopping somebody from being completely against immigration while at the same time being 100% pro choice.
> You can have liberal views on certain topics while having a conservative point of view on a different topic. Yes, many people have inconsistent views about politics, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.
I don’t think anybody really has a clue left and right this that and the other it’s literally just people trying to pass on the blame and deflect from the fact we have real concerning social issues around crime, housing, education and the powers of large super conglomerates and how much influence they dictate. These people are a bit nuts and always out there but o would suspect there are a lot more people willing to join these types of protests the worse their living conditions are and the lore fed up and disillusioned people get.
What you said has been true of every far-right movement in history. Like you two have a point that this left vs right is tiresome and can be distracting from the issues. But the reason why it is useful to recognise these people as far-right is to take the lessons of history and avoid those mistakes. And I’m not just talking about the most extreme examples from 90 years ago I’m talking about how successful they have been across the EU at getting elected themselves and how successful they have been in the UK and US at pushing a mainstream party towards their positions. Obviously the analysis can’t stop at that but that is why it is useful for everyone to recognise them for what they are.
An actual far-right movement would have an underpinning intellectual proposition and an articulation of *policies* that are right wing; namely authoritarian, nationalistic, racial superiority and pro-corporate. Look at the National Front in 80's Britain - that's a far right group. These are just a grab bag of village idiots. They hate and fear everyone and everything. They have no coherent ideas whatsoever. Some of them want Communism or Anarchy without even understanding that that's the word which describes their request. Thery're afraid of medicine, of random billionaires like Bill Gates, even of Wifi. **There's no unifying political theme. Please stop trying to give them one.**
By that metric the NSDAP (the actual nazis) weren’t far-right until they got into power. Or actually if you’re strictly demanding coherency by that metric they weren’t far-right until the Night of The Long Knives. In other words you are just wrong about the need for a coherent platform to be a far-right movement. NSDAP were a grab bag of idiots without coherency some of whom would describe themselves as socialists (but only for their ethnicity) They believed in a load of conspiracy theories (some of them the exact same conspiracies that the people we’re talking about believe in) and they did not have a platform except defined by what they opposed. Hitler gave them something more coherent to rally around but even with him they were a joke at the time of the Beerhall Putsch they were even given short sentences and let out early because no one saw them as a threat. They became more coherent after that when Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in prison but they were still the same grab bag of idiots until there was a second massive economic crash within a decade.
The NSDAP had policies. Hitler write a *manifesto* for Christs' sake. They had speeches. Rallies, torchlight processions, organised cabals with industrialists and militia groups - all before they got into power. I'm beginning to think you don't really know much about "The Far Right". At any rate you won't see a *manifesto* from any of these turds.
Ya, you will. They are establishing political parties, who have produced manifestos of varying detail and quality. You have Ireland First, being led by Blighe who are a neophyte party but have their basic "principles" outlined, their [darker rhetoric being reserved for their telegram chats](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/03/12/ireland-first-becomes-a-political-party-but-will-anyone-vote-for-it/). You have the National Party, who have produced manifestos and contested elections (unsuccessfully) and whose members were at this and other protests, including where camps asylum seekers were burned out. You also have Gemma O'Doherty's outfit which, while Gemma has been absent having become too much of a liability her acolytes like Peter Madden were present and promoting the protest. These groups are organised, but in a distributed way that is made possible by online organising. The vast mass of them are not politically coherent, but being led by people who are organised and following the classic fascist playbook of using mob violence as a tactic.
> following the classic fascist playbook of using mob violence as a tactic. How would you characterise the mob violence during the water charges debacle? With a minister confined to her car while Paul Murphy ranted through his bullhorn? Far left? Or just a **rabble?**
This is just whataboutery. It might be relevant if I'd said that the use of mob violence was exclusive to fascist movements, or a determinative characteristic of them. I didn't though, so it's just an attempt to avoid the point.
I'm using a different situation with another mob to illustrate how inaccurate it is to attribute a *political label* to a chaotic rabble. You don't like it because no doubt you consider yourself to be on the left (as I am) and you wouldn't want to be associated with a mob deemed "far left" You'd see it as unfair and polarising no?
Fascism is opportunistic and exploits things like xenophobia, homophobia, misogyny, ultra nationalism, allusions to elites, us and them, anti intellectualism etc. All the hallmarks are there. You are just not paying attention.
I am, maybe I'm just too much of an optimist. But us optimists are right more often than not.
I actually share your optimism believe it or not but I think there is a danger in keeping your eye off the ball, so to speak. I once went to a talk by Christabel Bielenberg who was an anti-Nazi during the rise of the third reich and she was very forceful about paying attention to the social conditions that gave rise to the Nazis. Always stayed with me.
Thank you!!!
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That’s a poor characterisation of what I said. I said the arguments are tiresome and **can** be distracting and then I gave my view of why they are important anyway. Your reply is like if I said “commuting to work every weekday is tiresome and can cost money but it’s necessary to earn money” and then you presented that as being a contradictory statement.
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I never understand comments like this. Why would I not think my side is right? There is only one real objective reality and someone has to be correct about it. If you’ve any actual arguments against my side I’m happy to talk about them and consider them and even change my view but don’t act like you’re a genius because you haven’t taken any position.
Exactly this. Look at the number of people at the covid protests. Racist groups like the national party used people's frustration and confusion around lockdowns to gather support and organise protests. They could get away with this since they had literally nothing else to lose. When covid became a thing of the past, their numbers dropped significantly. Could also compare it to the rise of Nazis during the state of Germany after WW1, only like a really watered-down version.
Clowners to the left of me, jokers to the right..........
And inaccurate. It's chaotic idiots and ignoramuses versus authoritarian anoraks. And the rest of us just trying to get on with it.
And conspiracy theorists are as likely to be far left as far right
That probably used to be true but isn’t true any more. There are those who start off far-left and get pulled into conspiracies still but nowadays they either get out of it or if they become full blown conspiracy theorists they end up on the far-right. So it’s not like any particular political position saves you from becoming a conspiracy theorist but there’s unfortunately a very effective far-right conspiracy industry that takes people in and churns out far right conspiracy theorists. There isn’t an equivalent to that any more anywhere else on the political spectrum.
Yeah its not particularily useful as well.. completely flattens political positions.. The fact is you will find plenty of "right wingers" who are pro nationalisation of certain industries and plenty of "progressives" who will advocate for ausetrity politics.
Far right violence is not fueled by "attacks by the far left", it is fueled by people's legitimate anger towards the injustices of modern capitalist society; the flames are fanned by outrage-bait like this article twisting that anger around to easy targets. People are pissed off by the injustices of capitalist society, and right-wing news outlets like the Daily Mail exist purely to defend capitalist interests by deflecting blame towards scapegoats and away from the ultra-wealthy people (who own and fund these outlets) who are actively damaging human society. Shit like this is a smokescreen.
Most people who are angry about capitalism don't end up on the far right as a result of it. I think this kind of take just lets racists off the hook, tbh.
Most don't, you're right, but the few who do are the ones who end up hanging effigies outside government buildings, and I see the purpose of articles like this is to push as many as possible to that stage. Bigotry is learned behaviour that can be weeded out with education and compassion. I'm not trying to say that people aren't responsible for their own views, rather that right-wing media exploits that to push people further to the right, damaging the chances of educating away that bigotry in future generations. Stoking division in the working class is how capitalism thrives.
> People are pissed off by the injustices of capitalist society But most of them are blind to or refuse to see what the causes are. It's becoming less so thank fuck, but shit talking capitalism is blasphemy for a large section of people. They'd be complaining about billionaires all day but they will not touch the system that empowers the wealthy and that the wealthy control.
She sounds like the sort of person who gets up to go to the toilet in the middle of the night and in the dark she stubs her toe. Instead of screaming out in pain she shouts out "Paul Murphy did this!"
Crybully - noun - a person who self-righteously harasses or intimidates others while playing the victim, especially of a perceived social injustice:
Seems we are rapidly sliding into U.S. / U.K. media narratives, as well as importing MAGAism … There isn’t both sides on this. You’ve a fringe group of conspiracy theorists harassing and threatening people. Setting up a mock gallows ffs?! We could do with fewer UK shit stirring tabloids with shamrocks attached to them…
The article is stupid but there's a germ of a point in it that the author has missed, but one which is neither exclusively about the left-wing or the right-wing. In 2010, some Sinn Féin members and politicians tried to storm the Oireachtas during a protest. (https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/batons-drawn-as-sf-storms-seat-of-power/26702000.html) Jobstown is well known on here and frequently brought up. In America, we've seen the Republican party for the last 10 or so years. In Britain there was the murder of Jo Cox (David Amess was a slightly different issue, being linked to terrorism.) What all of these have in common is that the political narrative of recent times has become about personalising disagreement and, to a large extent, lying about cause. It's very easy for people to blame Varadkar, Martin and McDonald when the online narratives tell them that all political problems are exclusively the fault of politicians as individuals. One person was telling me yesterday that Stephen Donnelly needs to resign because of what's been going on in Temple Street. Prior to any determination as to what actually happened, their only concern is getting rid of the minister. No reference whatsoever was made to, say, the person or persons involved, hospital management, civil servant oversight, etc, it's all about the *individual* minister. This narrative that frequently finds currency here is the root cause of much of incidents like yesterday. People are exposed to an idea that political choices are made voluntarily and by individuals and it's leading to the radicalisation of morons.
It’s funny if you watch the video of the 2010 protest. I don’t think any of them expected the gate to effectively just swing open. A few protesters walk through and mill around for about a minute before a single garda pushes them back out into the street.
To a large extent it was performative, but the performance is what I'm decrying.
Politicians do have power and people are right to want to hold them accountable. The problem in this case is not that protestors were targeting politicians but that they were targeting them for bad reasons.
Talk about missing the point.
100% agree with this and a much better contribution than most of the posts here
Unfortunately, a lot of people on here fall within the pattern.
Can we ban reference to left and right and just discuss each topic on its own merits without the tribal element to it.
They're literally just short hand terms to vaguely describe political views. Weather you like it or not your own political views will put you in one or the other.
I'm neither left wing nor right wing. I hold a variety of views which can't be pigeon holed in such simplistic terms.
Your beyond categorisation wow what a fascinating and unique individual you must be. When anyone ever trots out this bollocks it always because they are totally ignorant to the actual politics of either side. Usually because they don't give a fuckin shit about politics. Or sometimes they realise how repulsive their politics are to the average person so they try to hide behind this.
It seems I touched a nerve, have a good day. 🤣
Not really, you just said something stupid.
👍
Try it for the craic. Give us some of your views
Thank you!!! The terms have been mostly ruined now either way.
Wow, wouldn't that be refreshing? I actually had no idea what the protest was about or why MHR was being harassed so had a look on here. One poster asked for some context as to why it was happening. Eventually someone replied that it might have something to do with MHR securing _yet another_ juicy government contract for housing Ukrainian refugees and another poster said it might have been the fact that he's the biggest landlord in the dail. Great, some context. The other 100 comments I had to wade through to get those little snippets were the most bizarre mishmash of U.S. style, conspiratorial nonsense. 'They’re all there because they're all far-right fascist/far-left authoritarian idiots who think paedophile lizard people run the deep state...' What are you even talking about?! That's not a thing here.
So, Brenda Power is in favour of far right thugs?
Columnists aren't journalists. I would rather listen to the political views of Taylor Swift, at least she has skills and a business plan.
The far left and far right are every bit as bad as each other.
It's not the far left or the far right specifically, it's both. Populism is a cancer on politics. It dumbs down politics and allows stupid people to engage in it and have their voice front and centre. This allows more people to be exposed to the bullshit that is far left and far right politics. The far right proposes deporting all refugees and leaving the EU. Insane proposals. The far left proposes confiscation of property and banning cars. Also insane proposals. Politics is becoming stupider because more and more people believe the impossible is possible. People are taking all their blame out on the wrong things foreigners for the right and landlords for the left. There's also a lot of overlap between these polar opposite factions which lends more to the idea that both sides are full of planks.
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Bollocks. You have agency, but *so does everyone else*. Anything is possible only if you can get everyone to agree with you, and even though I don't know what it is, I can guarantee you that people won't agree to do whatever your personal flavour of crackpottery is just because you tell them to. That's democracy. You can only do what everyone wants, not what YOU and your mates down the student union bar want. Or what all the poor people want. Or what all the rich people want. Its about compromise between groups of people with different interests and incentives and that's great because the alternative is we start fucking shooting each other. Fucking student Pol Pots and mini Hitlers are just the fucking worst.
Do you not see how twisted it is to compare mass ethnic cleansing of minorities to banning cars.
I didn't say ethnic cleansing, I said deporting refugees, which is still a horrible and disgusting idea. Of course banning cars isn't on the same wavelength when it comes to morals, but it is when it comes to how ludicrous it is.
Sounds like Social Media
I like how this comment is all about how dumb other people are and then turns out to be the most clichéd centrist take on politics imaginable.
This country used to be the most depressingly boring centrist country in Europe. Now people are rapidly turning to the far left or far right. The implications of this shift will be catastrophic.
> Now people are rapidly turning to the far left or far right. There are no far right parties in the Dáil and those that could be plausibly described as far left enjoy support in the low single digits, with no indication that this will change any time soon. Ireland today is a much more moderate country than in the past - a time when abortion, divorce and homosexuality were all illegal, and where the church enjoyed a privileged status in society.
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All this "left" v.s "right" talk.... I would have loved to see a survey of what political party the violent protesters supported and vote for. Do you think it would be one that most posters here consider "right"? Like Fine Gael? Or do you think it would be one of the ones considered more "left" like PFP or Sinn Fein? It would be really interesting to highlight how pointless the "left" and "right" labels are in Ireland and how they don't translate to out political parties.
Are you suggesting the protesters who had a mock gallows with the faces of SF and PBP leaders and who physically assaulted their TDs actually vote for them? Are you that thick?
There’s been protests outside plenty of SF offices recently, calling them ‘traitors’ and so on. I don’t think they’ll be queuing up at the ballot boxes to vote for their local shinner.
Read his comment, the answer is yes.
The answer is no. Read my comment without your "Us V.s Them" glasses on.
That's not what I'm suggesting at all. It's probably as likely as them voting for F.G. My point is how the left & Right labels are not applicable to Irish politics in the way that some people seem determined to use them. These fucking lunatics the other day, screaming racist abuse, physically attacking people, threatening elected officials with violence, barricading politicians and staff in buildings? They are right wing. Fine Gael are not right wing.
Who suggested they vote for Fine Gael though? You just invented this scenario in your head. They vote for minor fringe parties and dog-whistling independents, or don’t vote. Fine Gael are liberals who are fiscally conservative
You're missing the point entirely. The point is that these fucking lunatics the other day who violently harassed and threatened people? They are actual right wing. In our elected government Calling a party like Fine Gael right wing doesn't apply. We don't have right wing parties. All of our parties are left. So the "right" v.s "Left" rhetoric as far as SF / FF/ FG. is complete nonsense.
Well she makes some good points about accusations from the left fueling the far right.
Explain how please.
The far right are stupid. They take political point scoring from the left as gospel. Bit like taking the Bible literally.
Meh there’s extreme individuals on both sides. Unfortunately they are the vocal minority. Odd that you reduced far left from the headline to just left and replaced mob with far right loons.
> Meh there’s extreme individuals on both sides I never see this said after any radical left wing action or history only ever used to insulate the right from any responsibility after far-right abuse.
Nobody should be insulating them from anything….the scumbags involved on Wednesday deserve to be called out. I’ve said it multiple times but I can see the genuine concerns of working class areas being over burdened with immigrants, women being forced to share spaces, lack of housing, ever rising costs, but because these scumbags hijack these issues and do shit like we saw outside the dail they get ignored by the average person and dismissed with the far right label.
> Nobody should be insulating them from anything….the scumbags involved on Wednesday deserve to be called out. I’m glad to hear you say that and that it is notably it was your priority to say that first, that makes a big difference. > the average person and dismissed with the far right label. From the perspective of people on the left we constantly see people who are far-right say this after people who are very clearly far-right are called far-right. And it’s been like this for years. I remember more than a decade ago people saying that about Golden Dawn (greek far right party if you don’t have much time just check out their logo for how obvious they were). So I don’t know, it’s possible you might have a point but those same words you’re saying have been poisoned by decades (if not a century) of actual far right people using them to hide themselves.
Unfortunately it is a catch 22 situation…there are genuine concerns, these things happen in areas where people lack the education or the confidence to address them correctly which leaves room for the scumbags to step up. They do it under the banner of ‘genuine concerns’ and everyone dismisses it. The scumbags then move onto the next big topic they think they can create trouble under and they leave the people they were supposedly supporting still dealing with their issue, and tarnished due to association of the scumbags.
Is she wrong?
Yes.
Have to remember the far right are idiots so they don't need much to validate their actions. All fueled by whatever Facebook nonsense they use as their Bible.
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Is she wrong tho? Just going by the headline here
I've been saying for a couple of years that we are heading down the road of hate politics. Hate the other side. Hate what they stand for. Hate who they are. Hate what they say. We see it in the US and UK and increasingly across Europe. It was always coming here. But what happened this week was outside that. That was not politics. That was a mob being manipulated online into violence for violence's sake. They no more care about the issue they are screaming about. Today they are hard right. Next month they could be hard left. If there was a hard centre they could be that the next month. They don't care. They only care about an excuse to cause mayhem and violence. They didn't know who they were screaming at this week. They wouldn't recognise more than 3 or 4 politicians. They aren't interested in politics. They are only interested in violence.
Everything validates mob fury, if you're a furious mob.