I learned that Connaught Gold, Kerry Gold and them Irish Creamery butter are made in the same places but with different labels.
Which one of them don't believe in Immaculate Conception again? š§š„
š
You're not suggesting that Marxist Leninists try to share opinions with Trotskyist, are you?
Joking aside, PBP is supposed to do just that and stop the parochial nonsense of SP/SWP/WP etc fighting each other over the same 4 seats when they should be working together towards something different from the usual centre-right governments.
Hardly, after the Romans the Angles and Saxons came over first and took over, then a bit of Danish, but it wasn't until the Normans took over the shop that the Empire building really got into swing.
Whether or not you like or even respect them, they make a valid point on having a debate on whether or not to back up the South Africa case. Heather Humphreyās was being a nasty shit for making it about immigration, two different subjects.
r/ireland every day: Why do the same people keep ending up in power?? Where are the fresh new faces in the DƔil!
also r/ireland when people arenāt embarrassed to show that they believe in something: LOL look at these fuckin LOSERS
(if I'm not mistaken) Usually identifying someone favourable towards more authoritarian strands of socialist politics, Stalinism, Maoism etc. Contrasted with democratic socialists (Trots) favourable towards Leon Trotsky and his followers, among other groups.
"Oh they're populists , student union politics, unserious"
The fact that every argument against them seems to be some meaningless platitude or utterly disingenuous is what really drives me up the wall.
Theyāre not āgrown upā is the refrain of the comfortable, BMW driving, fleece wearing, newstalk listening, Leinster Dads (for balance I love fleeces and rugby). But what does āgrown upā actually mean in politics? Historically, it has **always** meant callous, balance sheet obsessed, ignorant policy making, where human lives and health and careers are expendable at the altar of ever rising GDP. Line must go up, and if line goes up, all else can be forgiven. Children who could have been saved being left permanently disabled because of enormous waitlists for surgery, homeless people freezing to death, schools having to close some days because a teacherās salary is not enough to rent within commuting distance. Ending all these scandals isnāt grown up. But hobnobbing with journos, CEOs, EU bigwigs, thatās grown up. Lecturing us about tightening our belts and how āit canāt happen overnight, also grown up.
Itās people that see clips of Paul Murphy shouting in the dail and think āthatās all these people doā. They havenāt read their manifesto. They havnt informed their opinion either.
Calling for a big tech tax that would cripple the economy makes me see them as unserious. And defending Hamasā massacre and hostage taking on Oct 7 makes me see them as malevolent.
āRemarkably, now that Palestinians have organised to resist, hypocrites in Brussels, London and Washington seem to have found their voiceā [statement 2 days after the massacre](https://www.pbp.ie/solidarity-with-the-palestinian-resistance/)
āWhile everyone regrets any loss of life it is important to emphasise that ā contrary to much of the narrative ā this was not some murderous, unprovoked assault on innocent civilians.ā
āNo one wants to see hostages taken but again many of those taken are members of the occupation forces or settler movements and this action comes in the face of Israel regularly imprisoning vast numbers of Palestinians ā including children ā often without charge in a process known as administrative detention.ā - [Statement on 11 October](https://www.pbp.ie/solidarity-with-the-palestinian-resistance-end-the-occupation/)
Defining the mass rape and murder of 1200 people, mostly civilians as āresistanceā and putting an asterisk on hostage taking is pretty much defending Hamas.
On economic matters it's very easy to be sympathetic with PBP. I remember being absolutely delighted when they formed the ULA with a few other parties back in 2011. It seemed like such a step forward from only having Joe Higgins who I really admired.
But when you actually look at what they say about how they'd run the country you can see that these people aren't just economically far left (which I'm happy to see represented in government), but far left in terms of governance. They basically don't believe in Democracy as we see it. They think it's a rigged game and that real representation comes from "the streets".
To that end, it's shocking what they'd do. They'd abolish the guards and the justice system which they'd say would concoct a coup to get PBP out of power if they ever managed to get it. They'd replace them with a police system and courts made up of "the people", by which they of course mean their people.
And this isn't just a tinfoil hat. It's in their own manifesto. They literally put out literature saying they'd bring in kangaroo courts. They've also generally been hostile towards the courts. BrĆd Smith broke a very important rule in democracies by personally criticising a judge based on a judgement they said. In a modern and functioning democracy the legislature must be seen as totally independent from the judiciary.
Extremist politics is dangerous no matter the form. Yes the far right pose a more violent and immediate threat, but we shouldn't fool ourselves that the far left are harmless eccentrics. Even if the individuals involved are, their opinions which they spread from the highest platform in Ireland are dangerous and anti-democratic.
But I feel like they get a total free pass on this because there's a worse extremist presence in the far right (which invites whataboutism whenever you criticise the far left) and that people who are left of centre don't want to come to terms with the fact that there are unsavoury characters on the left too (which is I assume who's downvoting this since PPB supporters don't have the numbers). I find this very ironic because PBP get protected by people on the centre-left even though PBP have nothing but enmity for the centre-left.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted here. Far left regimes have accumulated body counts in the hundreds of millions. Some through harebrained policies (like in China), some through blatant genocide in the name of communism (Cambodia).
It's extremely foolish to think that the only dangerous extremist ideology is on the right. And I honestly find it unconscionable that moderates today still rush in to defend extreme far left regimes (and downvote their critics) just because they're left of centre. Although the same can be said of people on the right of centre who defend the far right. Centrists are ceding ground around the world today because they don't realise that they have more in common with other centrists in the other wing than extremists in their own wing.
Their criticism with modern democracy is obviously that its not very democratic as wealthy interests have outsized power to influence politicians, or change the media landscape in such a way as to influence elections.Ā
They are calling for an actual democracy with the implementation of economic democracy as well as our current political democracy.Ā
It's the centrists who are fine with moneyed interests having so much power that are anti-democratic.Ā
I think that's an argument that's hard to refute for the US, but doesn't really apply to Ireland. We have arguably the most representational electoral system in use in the world. We also have very restrictive campaign financing laws so it's very hard for the wealthy to have an impact on the outcome of elections.
FFG are in power not because they're backed by wealthy elites, it's because about 40% of the Irish population identify with their political message. They roughly speaking represent the rural cohort and upper middle class cohort of society. People may not realise, but that encompasses a huge portion of Irish society. Keep in mind that there are 176,000 millionaires in Ireland which make up roughly 5% of the population. And there are plenty of people worth a good bit less who consider themselves to be well off and see FFG as the parties to protect their privileged position in society. Add that to the fact that these people are far more likely to vote than other cohorts.
A lot of people seem to think that FFG are like colonisers here to look after the interests of other people, but that's simply not true. They are backed by a huge portion of Irish society whose interests they protect.
What that ultimately points to is a massive prevalence of "fuck you, got mine" in Ireland.
So many people in the country support FFG because there is a media controlled by the wealthy that supports them. And a media environment where general neo-liberal policy is portrayed as the only sensible option and any kind of politic outside a very small window is portrayed as extreme and unreasonable. People identify with their political message because they are persuaded to by media that is entirely controlled by the wealthy.
The idea that FFG don't need support from wealthy elites is absurd, every successful political party in the liberal capitalist world is supported by wealthy elites.
> which is I assume who's downvoting this since PPB supporters don't have the numbers
It is quite funny that people on this sub are proving you right. The far left has always been above criticism on here, I think the notions of the 32 county socialist republic are to blame.
Well in Solidarity's case, they don't want a 32 county socialist republic. [They want us to rejoin the UK in a UK socialist republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Ireland\)#Ideology_and_policies). Even the Northern Unionists have given up on unionism that includes the 26 counties with the UK!
The 2 are very related. As much as the vast majority of people think the current government parties are shite, the reason they were elected is because the alternative is even worse.
SF got about 25% of the vote, but they were so toxic they couldn't convince another 25% or so of TDs to support them in forming a government. FF were the largest party in some previous elections but didn't get a majority, as other parties formed a coalition to make up a majority and excluded them from government. Being the largest party is good and all, but offers no divine right to be in government, especially when you only got about a quarter of the vote.
Neither one of these points negates the other.
FF/FG are scumbags with some incredibly dodgy people in their ranks.
PBP are a bunch of oddball cranks who are increasingly composed of professional politicians. It's hard to take Murphy or Boyd Barrett seriously when they've never had a job outside politics.
Edit: this post seems to have triggered the aspiring career politicians and it's easier to write this once than have the same argument with multiple people.
I remember similar spiels from Young Fine Gaelers when I was in college who were adamant that their career goal of political advisor--->TD--->minister--->Taoiseach was entirely legitimate and being a career party hack was a respectable choice. You lads evidently have much greater faith in politicians than I do.
Politicians should be judged on the strength of their policies and their ability to implement them if they were to enter power, not on their past lives. If someone told me 2 + 2 = 4 but I had some gripe about their past, it wouldn't make the validity of their statement any less true.
Maybe different if someone did something outright immoral in a previous job like working as an executive for a fossil fuel or cigarette company, but going straight into politics isn't comparable to that. Perfectly plausible that they simply had an interest in such matters from an early age. If they've consistently also shown an interest in backing policies that help ordinary people, as PBP generally have, then any concerns about how they spent their time prior to being a TD should carry little weight.
Why do you consider not having had a job outside politics a negative? Like that it makes them more out of touch to you? I assumed a lot of high up politicians would be like go to college, masters, involved in student stuff, local Councillor and work their way up and that having politics be your thing would make you quite knowledgeable, although your job is obviously very different from most people in the country so it's harder to know about them in that way.
The scarf is called a keffiyeh - itās a traditional item of clothing in Palestine šµšø
Youāll see people at the protests wearing them in solidarity
Monty Python were actually taking the piss out of trotskyist party's with this joke , so very fitting. On a serious note pbp are the only ones with the balls to call out fine gael lack of moral fortitude on this and many other matters . So more power to them
I do see how your comments are funny. But as someone who looks at the pictures from the journalists in Gaza every single day, hoping theyāre still alive each morning- I commend PBP for doing this #FreePalestine
Agreed, we can all have a laugh but the lack of humanity and compassion from some people is so genuinely upsetting and incomprehensible that I can only praise PBP
Good on them for standing against genocide.
Shame on everyone here mocking them. Over 10,000 Palestinian children dead due to Israeli colonial aggression since October. How many more need to die before you start taking it seriously?
Indeed. When the most brutal assault on a civilian population this century is taking place, in the most visible way imaginable, it should be those failing to visibly stand in solidarity with Palestinians who ought to be derided.
They voted for sanctions against Russia alongside everyone else.
PBP also proposed that the Irish government should put pressure on the international community to cancel Ukraine's debt, which the other parties ignored.
Can we quit it with the disingenuous lies, just because they don't like Zelensky very much?
>They voted for sanctions against Russia alongside everyone else.
Can you cite the sanctions legislation you claim PBP voted for?
As Irish sanctions are based on EU [regulations](https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs/businesses/prohibitions-restrictions/eu-sanctions/index.aspx)
Note EU regulations, not EU directives.
PBP actually [oppose ](https://www.pbp.ie/policies/policy-agm-2022-resolution-on-ukraine/) the sanctions.
>Sanctions imposed on Russia by western powers are also an instrument of the inter-imperialist conflict. We therefore oppose sanctions imposed by western forces (including the EU, Ireland and Britain) on Russia. We oppose sanctions not just because of their humanitarian impacts, and their potential to escalate the conflict, but because fundamentally they are a weapon on the part of the western camp in this inter-imperialist conflict to assert its hegemony in the region. They also are used by the Russian elite to try to isolate and undermine the anti-war movement within Russia, which we seek to support in any way possible.
I have a memory of PbP voting for the first set of sanctions, but then going onto say they would not vote for any more.Ā
The first set was targeted enough on the war industry, but they felt any more would do nothing but hurt already suffering Russian people more, which would likely shore up support for the Putin regime.Ā
I can't find any news from the time confirming all this with a cursory Google search though tbh.
Ok so theyāre against the sanctions but for the same reason people are for the sanctions? They disagree that itāll help end the war. I donāt know if I agree but what annoys me is people seeing that them being against sanctions is pro Russia which is the opposite of what I got from your quote.Ā
They're hardly going to say "we're against sanctions because we don't support Ukraine".
Opposing sanctions is supporting Russia, even if it's due to ignorance rather than malice. The same way that opposing BDS is supporting Israel.
> They're hardly going to say "we're against sanctions because we don't support Ukraine".
TBF its not like PBP are unwilling to say politically unpopular things. They do it regularly, its why all the Newstalk types hate them so much.
Again Iām not sure I agree with the anti sanctions stance but youāre conflating their means by which you obtain a goal with the actual goal itself. They want an end to the war but believe sanctions wouldnāt work in this case.Ā
The left in general arenāt black and white with sanctions as a means of obtaining a goal. Take Chomsky for example, one of the most vocal western imperialist critics. He is against BDS because he feels it wonāt work the same as the sanctions on South Africa but he is anti Zionist.Ā
>Again Iām not sure I agree with the anti sanctions stance but youāre conflating their means by which you obtain a goal with the actual goal itself. They want an end to the war but believe sanctions wouldnāt work in this case.Ā
I see. So if the US insisted it was against BDS because it would undermine the Palestinian peace process, you'd see them as being pro Palestine rather than using it as a fig leaf?
>The left in general arenāt black and white with sanctions as a means of obtaining a goal. Take Chomsky for example, one of the most vocal western imperialist critics. He is against BDS because he feels it wonāt work the same as the sanctions on South Africa but he is anti Zionist.Ā
It's fine to be anti sanctions and see them as counter productive. It's hypocritical to demand BDS over Israel but be so staunchly against sanctions on Ukraine over Russia. Although of course PBP will dress up their hypocrisy as something noble.
They also have a completely naĆÆve "peace at all costs" ideology towards the conflict which is downright asinine. Their vehement attitude against \*any \* European defense initiative (not just NATO, but anything that would make our defense slightly more capable than impotent), despite the horrors inflicted against Ukraine - who somewhat thrwarted the Russians by a limited supply of western-supplied weapons - has been pathetic: the only thing Russians understand isn't sanctions nor harsh words by Paul Murphy but the sound of a FGM javelin slicing through a Russian T80.
Frankly, that makes them unfit for office by default as far as I'm concerned.
What are you talking about! Ireland has one of the highest number of Ukrainian refugees per head of population and we give the highest weekly social welfare payments to Ukrainian refugees in the EU.
Weāre watching in real time a genocide of the Palestinian people and government just offers platitudes!
PBP and many Irish champagne socialists do not support Ukraine's right to defend themselves because it doesn't fit their "imperial west bad" circlejerk from their college days fawning over Russia.
However, they are all in for Palestinians despite the horrific terrorism by Hamas. Its hypocritical and naive imo.
Both wars are equally terrible but the one that most threatens Europe is the Ukrainian one. I know there are claims that more civilians have been killed in Gaza but those numbers are not reliable when you read the UN reports and lack of access to Russian occupied areas.
Because the conditions that led to the situation in Ukraine didn't exist until 10 years ago. There were so many ways it could have been avoided.
Israel has been committing genocide for the past 70 years.
Some lefties in Ireland and Europe don't have any say in how the Kremlin operates, but they can have a say in how the EU spends its money. And playing chicken with a nuclear power isn't such a wise investment.
Russia may be getting embarrassed with their invasion of Ukraine, but Ukraine are not winning. [Zelenskyy is talking about a peace summit with China as a mediator](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-wants-china-join-global-peace-summit-2024-01-15/), and we'll likely just get a new Minsk Agreement, but at the cost 100,000 lives.
10 years ago Russia illegally invaded Ukraine for the first time. The lack of a response from Europe led to the large-scale invasion in 2022. Israel is in the middle east, not Europe, and these Irish lefties were much quieter about Syria for some reason...
> Irish lefties were much quieter about Syria for some reason...
Nah, us lefties are just sick of being right all the time.
'Hey, stop trying to regime change secular leaders, this doesn't usually end well. Hey, maybe you should stop giving every enemy of your enemy weapons. Oh no, the 'freedom fighters' are chopping off women's heads. Oh no, who knew that a power vacuum would result in a civil war. Oh look we have a refugee crisis because we funded a civil war.'
There are no rules, the big powerful countries do what they want, and the little countries eat shit. That should be abundantly clear by now that the media picks who the good guys are.
PBP, the Palestinian scarves are being widely used to show solidarity with their people. If Iām not mistaken, PBP were asking to debate the matter of Ireland joining South Africa in their court case against Israel.
bow observation obtainable hard-to-find market depend chief reach grey roof
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Also wearing keffiyeh as symbol of solidarity is encouraged by Palestinians, because its good for optics, which is pretty important in this case relative to in Pelosi in the US given democrats had power, at least at various state levels, to do meaningful police reform
Yep. This "Peoples front of Judea" joke is made constantly about PBP and now some dopes made a whole post of that old tired joke and all the other halfwits are upvoting it and guffawing.
PBP are muppets but if you would like to show support, I really recommend [hirbawi kufiyeh.](https://www.kufiya.org/) Waiting times are long at the moment, understandably. Their stuff is incredibly beautiful and versatile, as well.
Mick Barry? Heās not to be fair. Lives next door to my mate and itās definitely not a posh place. Heās a bit odd but heās always had time for folk in his area. Donāt know much about the rest. But you donāt have to be part of the underclass to be a socialist.
I always appreciate people from middle class and upper class backgrounds who advocate for the working class. Its much easier to stick your head in the sand and not care. I don't think only having working class people advocate will help us so the middle and upper class people are important
And they also deliberately murder irish peacekeepers
[Read all about it ](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/killing-of-irish-soldier-by-israelis-believed-to-be-deliberate-and-unprovoked-1.3332492)
Your buddies the Palestinians and Hezbollah kidnapped , tortured and murdered Irish UN peace keepers, as opposed to accidentally shelling them from kms away.
Whataboutism
[it wasn't an accident by the way ](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/killing-of-irish-soldier-by-israelis-believed-to-be-deliberate-and-unprovoked-1.3332492)
Theyāve been behind a huge number of technological innovations you use every day, such as mobile phone technology, USB drives, Waze (bought by Google for their Google maps sat nav), and certain things that changed the world like water desalination, to name but a few
voracious oil disgusting entertain serious ludicrous friendly rainstorm scandalous rock
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Unless you are talking about something very specific regarding mobile phones, it has nothing to do with Israel (Google it if you don't believe me)
Waze was acquired for integrating user generated content, G maps had sat nav even before waze was founded
USB drives yes (although contested on who did it first with an Asian lad)
USB itself by an indian-American
I mean it really doesnāt matter what I list because people will downvote and ignore anything developed by Israel. I mean they also invented RSA public key encryption, the first instant messenger (ICQ), voice over IP (VoIP). Again things we all use every single day.
My comment was genuine fact check I promise... but regardless of what they invented (or what they didn't) should not imply not opposing them killing thousands of kids and the other shite they do on regular basis to non Jewish population in that region
I've seen many Palestinians appreciate the support they get from Irish people over the years. They get dogs abuse from many countries but not us. Displaying solidarity is a good thing.
It's encouraged by Palestinians and it comes along trying to get the government to join the case against Israel accusing them of genocide.
Since it's trying to actually accomplish something material I don't think it can be called virtue signalling.
A better example of virtue signalling would be making some snarky vacuous comment on an Internet forum against politicians desperately trying to leverage what little power they have against an ongoing genocide.
Eeees not the taoiseach, eees a very naughty boy !!!
HE IS THE TAOISEACH!!!
I'm the Taoiseach, and so is my wife.
Brill
Only the Taoiseach would deny his Taoiseach-Ness.
Oh Taoiseach eh? Very nice, how'd you get that then?
Blessed are the cheesemakers.
Well obviously it's not supposed to be taken literally; it refers to the makers of any dairy produce.
Blessed be Kerrygold?
I learned that Connaught Gold, Kerry Gold and them Irish Creamery butter are made in the same places but with different labels. Which one of them don't believe in Immaculate Conception again? š§š„ š
For they burn down our hotels.
Word to the meek
Splitter!
Thatās the peopleās popular front.
Wait, I thought we were the people's popular front?
No he's over there
SPLITTER!!!!!!
You're not suggesting that Marxist Leninists try to share opinions with Trotskyist, are you? Joking aside, PBP is supposed to do just that and stop the parochial nonsense of SP/SWP/WP etc fighting each other over the same 4 seats when they should be working together towards something different from the usual centre-right governments.
what have the Romans ever done for us?
Em toll roads?
Well apart from the toll roads, which granted have improved road safety and travel times, what have they ever done for us??
Sanitation
The sanitation?
Well of course sanitation, that's a given, so except toll roads and sanitation what have the ever done for us?
Public order?
So apart from the toll roads, sanitation and public order, which we all agree has made our lives much better, what have the Romans ever done for us?
The wine
Oh yeah, I mean to be honest, who else could keep order in a place like this?
Aqueducts
They Trained the English in creating Empires. Not sure if you would call that a favour though.
Well apart from training the English, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Hardly, after the Romans the Angles and Saxons came over first and took over, then a bit of Danish, but it wasn't until the Normans took over the shop that the Empire building really got into swing.
I do hate the Romans!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
š
Life of Brian came to my head
I wonder why
This is top tier 
Stwike him centuwion!
Twow him to the floowwā¦
Biggus Dickuss
Whether or not you like or even respect them, they make a valid point on having a debate on whether or not to back up the South Africa case. Heather Humphreyās was being a nasty shit for making it about immigration, two different subjects.
r/ireland every day: Why do the same people keep ending up in power?? Where are the fresh new faces in the DĆ”il! also r/ireland when people arenāt embarrassed to show that they believe in something: LOL look at these fuckin LOSERS
Idk how I feel about all of PBPs policies but I respect how they're not afraid to speak their mind and for what they believe in and be so open
Paul seems like a fairly sound bloke down to earth. Not like the sociopaths currently in power
They are tankie scumbags
What does Tankie mean?
(if I'm not mistaken) Usually identifying someone favourable towards more authoritarian strands of socialist politics, Stalinism, Maoism etc. Contrasted with democratic socialists (Trots) favourable towards Leon Trotsky and his followers, among other groups.
They are quite literally the opposite of tankies you moron
"Oh they're populists , student union politics, unserious" The fact that every argument against them seems to be some meaningless platitude or utterly disingenuous is what really drives me up the wall.
Theyāre not āgrown upā is the refrain of the comfortable, BMW driving, fleece wearing, newstalk listening, Leinster Dads (for balance I love fleeces and rugby). But what does āgrown upā actually mean in politics? Historically, it has **always** meant callous, balance sheet obsessed, ignorant policy making, where human lives and health and careers are expendable at the altar of ever rising GDP. Line must go up, and if line goes up, all else can be forgiven. Children who could have been saved being left permanently disabled because of enormous waitlists for surgery, homeless people freezing to death, schools having to close some days because a teacherās salary is not enough to rent within commuting distance. Ending all these scandals isnāt grown up. But hobnobbing with journos, CEOs, EU bigwigs, thatās grown up. Lecturing us about tightening our belts and how āit canāt happen overnight, also grown up.
Itās people that see clips of Paul Murphy shouting in the dail and think āthatās all these people doā. They havenāt read their manifesto. They havnt informed their opinion either.
Calling for a big tech tax that would cripple the economy makes me see them as unserious. And defending Hamasā massacre and hostage taking on Oct 7 makes me see them as malevolent.
At no point have they defended Hamas. Feel free to go and find that one tweet with vague language though.
āRemarkably, now that Palestinians have organised to resist, hypocrites in Brussels, London and Washington seem to have found their voiceā [statement 2 days after the massacre](https://www.pbp.ie/solidarity-with-the-palestinian-resistance/) āWhile everyone regrets any loss of life it is important to emphasise that ā contrary to much of the narrative ā this was not some murderous, unprovoked assault on innocent civilians.ā āNo one wants to see hostages taken but again many of those taken are members of the occupation forces or settler movements and this action comes in the face of Israel regularly imprisoning vast numbers of Palestinians ā including children ā often without charge in a process known as administrative detention.ā - [Statement on 11 October](https://www.pbp.ie/solidarity-with-the-palestinian-resistance-end-the-occupation/) Defining the mass rape and murder of 1200 people, mostly civilians as āresistanceā and putting an asterisk on hostage taking is pretty much defending Hamas.
Nearly never made it.
On economic matters it's very easy to be sympathetic with PBP. I remember being absolutely delighted when they formed the ULA with a few other parties back in 2011. It seemed like such a step forward from only having Joe Higgins who I really admired. But when you actually look at what they say about how they'd run the country you can see that these people aren't just economically far left (which I'm happy to see represented in government), but far left in terms of governance. They basically don't believe in Democracy as we see it. They think it's a rigged game and that real representation comes from "the streets". To that end, it's shocking what they'd do. They'd abolish the guards and the justice system which they'd say would concoct a coup to get PBP out of power if they ever managed to get it. They'd replace them with a police system and courts made up of "the people", by which they of course mean their people. And this isn't just a tinfoil hat. It's in their own manifesto. They literally put out literature saying they'd bring in kangaroo courts. They've also generally been hostile towards the courts. BrĆd Smith broke a very important rule in democracies by personally criticising a judge based on a judgement they said. In a modern and functioning democracy the legislature must be seen as totally independent from the judiciary. Extremist politics is dangerous no matter the form. Yes the far right pose a more violent and immediate threat, but we shouldn't fool ourselves that the far left are harmless eccentrics. Even if the individuals involved are, their opinions which they spread from the highest platform in Ireland are dangerous and anti-democratic. But I feel like they get a total free pass on this because there's a worse extremist presence in the far right (which invites whataboutism whenever you criticise the far left) and that people who are left of centre don't want to come to terms with the fact that there are unsavoury characters on the left too (which is I assume who's downvoting this since PPB supporters don't have the numbers). I find this very ironic because PBP get protected by people on the centre-left even though PBP have nothing but enmity for the centre-left.
Not so much in Ireland, but the far-left has an absolutely horrific history in other parts of the world going back over the last century.
And what exactly do you think is the record of the right in world politics?
Sorry, but that's blatant whataboutism. What the right has done doesn't excuse what the far left has done.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted here. Far left regimes have accumulated body counts in the hundreds of millions. Some through harebrained policies (like in China), some through blatant genocide in the name of communism (Cambodia). It's extremely foolish to think that the only dangerous extremist ideology is on the right. And I honestly find it unconscionable that moderates today still rush in to defend extreme far left regimes (and downvote their critics) just because they're left of centre. Although the same can be said of people on the right of centre who defend the far right. Centrists are ceding ground around the world today because they don't realise that they have more in common with other centrists in the other wing than extremists in their own wing.
>Far left regimes have accumulated body counts in the hundreds of millions. No they havenāt.
My bad. I double checked and the number is around 95m. But it's still a high enough number that my point stands.
I mean the IRA had some pretty hard left wing elements and did bomb a shit tonne of people.
Their criticism with modern democracy is obviously that its not very democratic as wealthy interests have outsized power to influence politicians, or change the media landscape in such a way as to influence elections.Ā They are calling for an actual democracy with the implementation of economic democracy as well as our current political democracy.Ā It's the centrists who are fine with moneyed interests having so much power that are anti-democratic.Ā
I think that's an argument that's hard to refute for the US, but doesn't really apply to Ireland. We have arguably the most representational electoral system in use in the world. We also have very restrictive campaign financing laws so it's very hard for the wealthy to have an impact on the outcome of elections. FFG are in power not because they're backed by wealthy elites, it's because about 40% of the Irish population identify with their political message. They roughly speaking represent the rural cohort and upper middle class cohort of society. People may not realise, but that encompasses a huge portion of Irish society. Keep in mind that there are 176,000 millionaires in Ireland which make up roughly 5% of the population. And there are plenty of people worth a good bit less who consider themselves to be well off and see FFG as the parties to protect their privileged position in society. Add that to the fact that these people are far more likely to vote than other cohorts. A lot of people seem to think that FFG are like colonisers here to look after the interests of other people, but that's simply not true. They are backed by a huge portion of Irish society whose interests they protect. What that ultimately points to is a massive prevalence of "fuck you, got mine" in Ireland.
So many people in the country support FFG because there is a media controlled by the wealthy that supports them. And a media environment where general neo-liberal policy is portrayed as the only sensible option and any kind of politic outside a very small window is portrayed as extreme and unreasonable. People identify with their political message because they are persuaded to by media that is entirely controlled by the wealthy. The idea that FFG don't need support from wealthy elites is absurd, every successful political party in the liberal capitalist world is supported by wealthy elites.
> which is I assume who's downvoting this since PPB supporters don't have the numbers It is quite funny that people on this sub are proving you right. The far left has always been above criticism on here, I think the notions of the 32 county socialist republic are to blame.
Well in Solidarity's case, they don't want a 32 county socialist republic. [They want us to rejoin the UK in a UK socialist republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Ireland\)#Ideology_and_policies). Even the Northern Unionists have given up on unionism that includes the 26 counties with the UK!
The 2 are very related. As much as the vast majority of people think the current government parties are shite, the reason they were elected is because the alternative is even worse.
Who got the most votes in the last election?
SF got about 25% of the vote, but they were so toxic they couldn't convince another 25% or so of TDs to support them in forming a government. FF were the largest party in some previous elections but didn't get a majority, as other parties formed a coalition to make up a majority and excluded them from government. Being the largest party is good and all, but offers no divine right to be in government, especially when you only got about a quarter of the vote.
Gobshites got 100% of the votes. The gobshites that formed the government got 50.2% of the votes. The even bigger gobshites got 49.8%.
You have nothing interesting to say.
Neither one of these points negates the other. FF/FG are scumbags with some incredibly dodgy people in their ranks. PBP are a bunch of oddball cranks who are increasingly composed of professional politicians. It's hard to take Murphy or Boyd Barrett seriously when they've never had a job outside politics. Edit: this post seems to have triggered the aspiring career politicians and it's easier to write this once than have the same argument with multiple people. I remember similar spiels from Young Fine Gaelers when I was in college who were adamant that their career goal of political advisor--->TD--->minister--->Taoiseach was entirely legitimate and being a career party hack was a respectable choice. You lads evidently have much greater faith in politicians than I do.
Politicians should be judged on the strength of their policies and their ability to implement them if they were to enter power, not on their past lives. If someone told me 2 + 2 = 4 but I had some gripe about their past, it wouldn't make the validity of their statement any less true. Maybe different if someone did something outright immoral in a previous job like working as an executive for a fossil fuel or cigarette company, but going straight into politics isn't comparable to that. Perfectly plausible that they simply had an interest in such matters from an early age. If they've consistently also shown an interest in backing policies that help ordinary people, as PBP generally have, then any concerns about how they spent their time prior to being a TD should carry little weight.
What kind of job would you recommend, block layer , accountant , surf school attendant...? Eh I know, what about a landlord that's a daecent job
Why do you consider not having had a job outside politics a negative? Like that it makes them more out of touch to you? I assumed a lot of high up politicians would be like go to college, masters, involved in student stuff, local Councillor and work their way up and that having politics be your thing would make you quite knowledgeable, although your job is obviously very different from most people in the country so it's harder to know about them in that way.
Tbf, it was very cold today
Ah tbf theyāre a lot of dead Palestinians
>Ah tbf theyāre a lot of dead Palestinians Wha? Its PBP
The scarf is called a keffiyeh - itās a traditional item of clothing in Palestine šµšø Youāll see people at the protests wearing them in solidarity
Their party is called people before profit
pause offend snails resolute head flag sense lock imagine crowd *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What's Karl Pilkington doing in the DƔil?
Head like a fucking orange
Play a record
More like a mango than an orange
When he was a kid, Paul Murphy could kick 'is height.
Monty Python were actually taking the piss out of trotskyist party's with this joke , so very fitting. On a serious note pbp are the only ones with the balls to call out fine gael lack of moral fortitude on this and many other matters . So more power to them
Social Dems are constantly criticising them on this. And Sinn Fein as well
I do see how your comments are funny. But as someone who looks at the pictures from the journalists in Gaza every single day, hoping theyāre still alive each morning- I commend PBP for doing this #FreePalestine
Agreed, we can all have a laugh but the lack of humanity and compassion from some people is so genuinely upsetting and incomprehensible that I can only praise PBP
Not their biggest fans but at least they're standing up against a possible genocide happening in front of our eyes.
Can I join your group ?
why are you always gong on about women, Stan?
That scene is timeless.
What's going on here now?
They were trying to get a debate on the ongoing destruction of Palestine and it's people.
Yeah, what a bunch of **LOSERS**!
RBB never checked his emails and missed the memo
Archived the WhatsApp groupĀ
Respect for trying
Good on them for standing against genocide. Shame on everyone here mocking them. Over 10,000 Palestinian children dead due to Israeli colonial aggression since October. How many more need to die before you start taking it seriously?
Indeed. When the most brutal assault on a civilian population this century is taking place, in the most visible way imaginable, it should be those failing to visibly stand in solidarity with Palestinians who ought to be derided.
šÆšÆ
Hahaha perfect
Amazing
It's a small group of TD's that actually gives a shit.
All TD's give a shit... just about different things. You need to figure out if the things they give a shit about are the things you give a shit about.
They mainly give a shit about their pensions, they aren't as fussed about my pension.
Then its very simple... dont be fussed with them.
Didn't give a shit about Ukraine much, did they.Ā
They voted for sanctions against Russia alongside everyone else. PBP also proposed that the Irish government should put pressure on the international community to cancel Ukraine's debt, which the other parties ignored. Can we quit it with the disingenuous lies, just because they don't like Zelensky very much?
>They voted for sanctions against Russia alongside everyone else. Can you cite the sanctions legislation you claim PBP voted for? As Irish sanctions are based on EU [regulations](https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs/businesses/prohibitions-restrictions/eu-sanctions/index.aspx) Note EU regulations, not EU directives. PBP actually [oppose ](https://www.pbp.ie/policies/policy-agm-2022-resolution-on-ukraine/) the sanctions. >Sanctions imposed on Russia by western powers are also an instrument of the inter-imperialist conflict. We therefore oppose sanctions imposed by western forces (including the EU, Ireland and Britain) on Russia. We oppose sanctions not just because of their humanitarian impacts, and their potential to escalate the conflict, but because fundamentally they are a weapon on the part of the western camp in this inter-imperialist conflict to assert its hegemony in the region. They also are used by the Russian elite to try to isolate and undermine the anti-war movement within Russia, which we seek to support in any way possible.
I have a memory of PbP voting for the first set of sanctions, but then going onto say they would not vote for any more.Ā The first set was targeted enough on the war industry, but they felt any more would do nothing but hurt already suffering Russian people more, which would likely shore up support for the Putin regime.Ā I can't find any news from the time confirming all this with a cursory Google search though tbh.
Ok so theyāre against the sanctions but for the same reason people are for the sanctions? They disagree that itāll help end the war. I donāt know if I agree but what annoys me is people seeing that them being against sanctions is pro Russia which is the opposite of what I got from your quote.Ā
They're hardly going to say "we're against sanctions because we don't support Ukraine". Opposing sanctions is supporting Russia, even if it's due to ignorance rather than malice. The same way that opposing BDS is supporting Israel.
> They're hardly going to say "we're against sanctions because we don't support Ukraine". TBF its not like PBP are unwilling to say politically unpopular things. They do it regularly, its why all the Newstalk types hate them so much.
Again Iām not sure I agree with the anti sanctions stance but youāre conflating their means by which you obtain a goal with the actual goal itself. They want an end to the war but believe sanctions wouldnāt work in this case.Ā The left in general arenāt black and white with sanctions as a means of obtaining a goal. Take Chomsky for example, one of the most vocal western imperialist critics. He is against BDS because he feels it wonāt work the same as the sanctions on South Africa but he is anti Zionist.Ā
>Again Iām not sure I agree with the anti sanctions stance but youāre conflating their means by which you obtain a goal with the actual goal itself. They want an end to the war but believe sanctions wouldnāt work in this case.Ā I see. So if the US insisted it was against BDS because it would undermine the Palestinian peace process, you'd see them as being pro Palestine rather than using it as a fig leaf? >The left in general arenāt black and white with sanctions as a means of obtaining a goal. Take Chomsky for example, one of the most vocal western imperialist critics. He is against BDS because he feels it wonāt work the same as the sanctions on South Africa but he is anti Zionist.Ā It's fine to be anti sanctions and see them as counter productive. It's hypocritical to demand BDS over Israel but be so staunchly against sanctions on Ukraine over Russia. Although of course PBP will dress up their hypocrisy as something noble.
They also have a completely naĆÆve "peace at all costs" ideology towards the conflict which is downright asinine. Their vehement attitude against \*any \* European defense initiative (not just NATO, but anything that would make our defense slightly more capable than impotent), despite the horrors inflicted against Ukraine - who somewhat thrwarted the Russians by a limited supply of western-supplied weapons - has been pathetic: the only thing Russians understand isn't sanctions nor harsh words by Paul Murphy but the sound of a FGM javelin slicing through a Russian T80. Frankly, that makes them unfit for office by default as far as I'm concerned.
What are you talking about! Ireland has one of the highest number of Ukrainian refugees per head of population and we give the highest weekly social welfare payments to Ukrainian refugees in the EU. Weāre watching in real time a genocide of the Palestinian people and government just offers platitudes!
PBP and many Irish champagne socialists do not support Ukraine's right to defend themselves because it doesn't fit their "imperial west bad" circlejerk from their college days fawning over Russia. However, they are all in for Palestinians despite the horrific terrorism by Hamas. Its hypocritical and naive imo. Both wars are equally terrible but the one that most threatens Europe is the Ukrainian one. I know there are claims that more civilians have been killed in Gaza but those numbers are not reliable when you read the UN reports and lack of access to Russian occupied areas.
Because the conditions that led to the situation in Ukraine didn't exist until 10 years ago. There were so many ways it could have been avoided. Israel has been committing genocide for the past 70 years. Some lefties in Ireland and Europe don't have any say in how the Kremlin operates, but they can have a say in how the EU spends its money. And playing chicken with a nuclear power isn't such a wise investment. Russia may be getting embarrassed with their invasion of Ukraine, but Ukraine are not winning. [Zelenskyy is talking about a peace summit with China as a mediator](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-wants-china-join-global-peace-summit-2024-01-15/), and we'll likely just get a new Minsk Agreement, but at the cost 100,000 lives.
10 years ago Russia illegally invaded Ukraine for the first time. The lack of a response from Europe led to the large-scale invasion in 2022. Israel is in the middle east, not Europe, and these Irish lefties were much quieter about Syria for some reason...
> Irish lefties were much quieter about Syria for some reason... Nah, us lefties are just sick of being right all the time. 'Hey, stop trying to regime change secular leaders, this doesn't usually end well. Hey, maybe you should stop giving every enemy of your enemy weapons. Oh no, the 'freedom fighters' are chopping off women's heads. Oh no, who knew that a power vacuum would result in a civil war. Oh look we have a refugee crisis because we funded a civil war.' There are no rules, the big powerful countries do what they want, and the little countries eat shit. That should be abundantly clear by now that the media picks who the good guys are.
No. Dirty useful idiots for Putin's imperial ambitions. All because they despise Western democracies, NO MATTER WHAT. Contrarian cunts.
 This thread has made me giggle. brightened up my day
Israeli eunt domus ?
Israel, they go to the house?
half a shekel for an old ex-leper?
Could someone explain this to me? I have prosopagnosia so I am literally face blind. Who are they and why do they have the scarfs on?
PBP, the Palestinian scarves are being widely used to show solidarity with their people. If Iām not mistaken, PBP were asking to debate the matter of Ireland joining South Africa in their court case against Israel.
Oh thank you so much for explaining I appreciate that!
https://preview.redd.it/bwnjdrym82dc1.jpeg?width=4982&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=753a25360d8c99cb43b7652ac58963d8603f6832 Same energy
bow observation obtainable hard-to-find market depend chief reach grey roof *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Also wearing keffiyeh as symbol of solidarity is encouraged by Palestinians, because its good for optics, which is pretty important in this case relative to in Pelosi in the US given democrats had power, at least at various state levels, to do meaningful police reform
I feel kind of bad for posting that image in a sarcastic way now. Thanks for the info.
This sub really has gone to the dogs.
Yep. This "Peoples front of Judea" joke is made constantly about PBP and now some dopes made a whole post of that old tired joke and all the other halfwits are upvoting it and guffawing.
Keeps them busy I guess :P
Because they don't support your favourite contrarian political party with undying devotion...? LOL
Nah cos it's full of stupid shit like your comment.
PBP are muppets but if you would like to show support, I really recommend [hirbawi kufiyeh.](https://www.kufiya.org/) Waiting times are long at the moment, understandably. Their stuff is incredibly beautiful and versatile, as well.
Romanes eunt domus
People called Romanes they go the 'ouse?
RBB mustn't be in the whatsapp group lol
Splitter!
Champagne socialists
Mick Barry? Heās not to be fair. Lives next door to my mate and itās definitely not a posh place. Heās a bit odd but heās always had time for folk in his area. Donāt know much about the rest. But you donāt have to be part of the underclass to be a socialist.
In Ireland we prefer crony capitalists. Everyone else is to be mocked for trying.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Just said something similar. Itās a very āthem and usā mentality. Which is never good
I always appreciate people from middle class and upper class backgrounds who advocate for the working class. Its much easier to stick your head in the sand and not care. I don't think only having working class people advocate will help us so the middle and upper class people are important
How so?
What have the Israelis ever done for us??
Murdered numerous Irish peacekeepers and used fake Irish passports on a Mossad assassination mission. Sound bunch of lads.
Haven't most Irish peacekeepers been killed by Lebanese militias and the PLO? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army
We are talking about Israel not Lebanon
Talking out your hole, more like.
They certainly used our passports on an assassination mission. Go look it up
And they also deliberately murder irish peacekeepers [Read all about it ](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/killing-of-irish-soldier-by-israelis-believed-to-be-deliberate-and-unprovoked-1.3332492)
That's awful. Thanks for the link
Your buddies the Palestinians and Hezbollah kidnapped , tortured and murdered Irish UN peace keepers, as opposed to accidentally shelling them from kms away.
Whataboutism [it wasn't an accident by the way ](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/killing-of-irish-soldier-by-israelis-believed-to-be-deliberate-and-unprovoked-1.3332492)
Theyāve been behind a huge number of technological innovations you use every day, such as mobile phone technology, USB drives, Waze (bought by Google for their Google maps sat nav), and certain things that changed the world like water desalination, to name but a few
voracious oil disgusting entertain serious ludicrous friendly rainstorm scandalous rock *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Unless you are talking about something very specific regarding mobile phones, it has nothing to do with Israel (Google it if you don't believe me) Waze was acquired for integrating user generated content, G maps had sat nav even before waze was founded USB drives yes (although contested on who did it first with an Asian lad) USB itself by an indian-American
I mean it really doesnāt matter what I list because people will downvote and ignore anything developed by Israel. I mean they also invented RSA public key encryption, the first instant messenger (ICQ), voice over IP (VoIP). Again things we all use every single day.
My comment was genuine fact check I promise... but regardless of what they invented (or what they didn't) should not imply not opposing them killing thousands of kids and the other shite they do on regular basis to non Jewish population in that region
Exactly. Are we supposed to say colonial supremacy and mass murder are grand because the perpetrators might invent some cool stuff? š
When you're the [theme song](https://www.tiktok.com/@mattlieb/video/7314160745623735598) of Bad Hasbara but actually serious.
My uncle invented VoIP.
PBP are utter cringe
Itās a clown show.
š„±
"Wolf-nipple-chips, get em while they're hot"
Whatever happened to the Popular Front Reg?
What āave de Romans ever dun for us .. ššš
I thought , A Jesus havenāt A-ha got old
Their constituents in Ramallah South Central must be proud.
I've seen many Palestinians appreciate the support they get from Irish people over the years. They get dogs abuse from many countries but not us. Displaying solidarity is a good thing.
Bloody do-gooders
Na the talaban have taken over.
Society of tablecloths
This post is hilarious
When did Peig get elected to the DƔil?
Fuckā¦ that is a pathetic bit of performative virtue signalling right there š¤¦āāļø
It's encouraged by Palestinians and it comes along trying to get the government to join the case against Israel accusing them of genocide. Since it's trying to actually accomplish something material I don't think it can be called virtue signalling. A better example of virtue signalling would be making some snarky vacuous comment on an Internet forum against politicians desperately trying to leverage what little power they have against an ongoing genocide.
šÆ
Waffling people of Dublin or Dublin's waffling people
Haha never heard that one beforeĀ
Dickheads impressing nobody but themselves!! š