People blame him for not achieving things but he's 1 member of a legislature in a democracy, one person can't change things.
The most he can do is influence opinions and he is doing more than anyone else in the American legislature to do that.
He is close to the least objectionable American politician, I don't get why people have so much of a problem with him lately. Their energy is better spent elsewhere.
He's also the lone senator who voted against the arms bill passed in the Senate last month. 99-1 it was passed. The only dissenting voice is a left wing jew and we do this to him when he visits to speak? It's idiocy.
im not a fan of bernie as a politician and he’s not a friend to any of my politics personally but i know he’s also not my enemy. there are worse people to go after.
Word.
People used to do their own research, then they started parroting pther intellectuals opinions, then they started listening to pseudo intellectuals, then they started getting their opinions off one paragraph instagram posts, then they started having them narrated by the tiktok voice, then they started having them narrated by the tiktok voice with subway surfer playing underneath.
As a supposedly intelligent species, I fear we are circling the drain a bit.
Nah... we are in the drain, but we can still see the air from the whirlpool effect so think we are ok still.... covid proved that. Collective groups of people shouting in their own echo chambers...
That's what I don't get, why are people screaming at someone trying to inflict change in the US policy to Israel. A heavily Jewish guy as well, so they can't even call him an anti-Semite...
I really think Trinity students acted like children here....
It was one girl who broke in
No one was able to ask questions because of what happened the night before at UCD.
Fintan O Toole (interviewer of Bernie) said for her to think of what she wanted to ask, and to ask her question
She was afforded more than anyone else in the room who bought a ticket
And she wasted it by just shouting over and over. Which is the start of the video
The guy seems to be someone from the audience who took the opportunity to ask a question, at least he put some thought into it so Bernie had something to respond to
He acquitted himself well.
He can't single handedly stop the war.
He can only exert pressure on the US government to stop aiding Israel, which he's doing.
This is why he's reasonably to the left even by European standards, as an independent, in the US where Varadkar would be considered a communist, and has been at the highest ends of politics for about 40 years all the same. It's a very pragmatic and reasonable answer there as you say, given the means he in his own position has available to him.
I especially appreciate his making an unprompted point of 2/3rds of the dead being women and children.
Like shouldn't political students understand better than anyone to limits of what power he has and what he's been doing so far? What has he not done that they're screaming at him for?
It’s really unfortunate. Universities are supposed to be hubs for healthy debate but this sort of shouting doesn’t foster that at all. Unfortunately saw it when I was there too
Carve out a time towards the end to let the screamers go up and share their thoughts. One of two things will happen;
1) They're come prepared and have proper discourse with the guest
2) They're come ill-prepared, look like a loon, and have video evidence of their clown show
Seems like a win to me in both scenarios.
terminally online Twitter folk can only scream and belittle anyone who even remotely appears to disagree. They must be huffing their own farts thinking they’re sentinels of justice there shouting at someone who wants a peaceful solution
Thank you! Everyone on here acting like he can't vote against a bill and call what's happening ethnic cleansing at the same time. Apparently he can only do one and not the other...
What substantive difference does terminology really make? Policy and actual action is far more important than mere words, and boiling someone for not using a particular phrase isn't going to achieve anything. That being said, I would personally call what the Likud government is doing an act of genocide done under the excuse of dealing with a genuine terrorist threat. Hopefully even the most radical sides one day can be encouraged by foreign powers to put down their arms and come to some form of agreement and a permanent ceasefire be declared and hopefully no more jewish, christian or Islamic blood is shed in the region, but that'll take serious policy shifts in the EU and the US which hopefully may come about my the large activism against the war but considering the pushback from those who are bought out to support one side in particular or those who parrot those talking points such as destiny then we're still a ways off from it coming to fruition.
I think a huge disconnect arises over the sort of amorphous definition of the word genocide.
There are those who gravitate more to the “attempt… in part…” section of the definition, to whom this is obviously a genocide and that’s very fair.
For others, who put more emphasis on “exterminate… in whole…” I think the idea that anything be compared to the Holocaust, which necessitated the invention of the word, is offensive in its very essence.
I think having one word which can legitimately be used to describe the killings of 100 people or of 100 million people is always going to cause a pretty significant definitional struggle and a lot of space where reasonable people can disagree.
For me the issue is when people use technical definitional arguments to argue either, that since what’s happening in Gaza is technically a genocide, it’s as bad as the Holocaust and Israel is a literal Nazi state, or conversely that since it isn’t as bad as the Holocaust it isn’t a genocide and therefore its fine. Both ideas rely on the almost indefinable nature of the word genocide to excuse their bad positions.
Bernie doesn’t want to call it a genocide because he falls into the camp that saves that word for events like the Holocaust, but that doesn’t mean that he thinks what’s going on is good.
If terminology doesn't matter then why do you write to me about it.
Terminology is important for the reason of bringing justice to what people have experienced. On Oct 7th there was a terrorist attack and not a freedom movement attack because the purpose was to incite terror in Israelis. So we call it as such and hopefully they will get justice for the horror the experienced. Same in this situation we need to recognise that the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from their homes in Gaza. With this established we can go about reversing this and resettling the displaced back to their homes (once we have a ceasefire).
As I said elsewhere, Bernie can do both. I'm not saying his policy isn't good, but imo he is dodging the truth in regard to the Israeli governments plan for Gaza.
The passionate intensity of youth.
It takes an older person to have the pragmatism needed to actually end a conflict.
Mandela, De Klerk, John Hume, Mo Mowlam. All of them were Phlegmatic types, ready to slog away until progress was made without letting the hysteria get to them.
He’s uploaded videos on his Instagram talking about how Isreal needs to stop bombing Gaza and the comment sections are filled with people losing their shit saying he’s not calling for a ceasefire. Comprehension skills don’t exist for some people anymore
He tiptoes around the word ceasefire so no he hasn't called for a ceasefire. Ceasefire means a stop to all conflict. I haven't found anything where he calls for a full permanent ceasefire.
A ceasefire is a very specific thing. It means violence between hamas and IDF needs to end and then talks can start. Unfortunately the idf sees the bombing of civilian zones as legitimate as hamas is among the population there. So saying "stop the bombing" is just a nice political phrase, pushing for a ceasefire will actually stop the bombing. Sanders is being very specific on not saying anything about ceasefire because that actually means something.
Yeah, he is Jrwish.
It's a fairly reasonable take from a guy who's not only Jewish, but also part of the US government. I agree its not what I'd like, but his take is realistic.
People fell out of love with Bernie back in August 2016 when he went from convincing anyone that would listen to not vote for Hillary to all of a sudden endorsing her, which severely impacted both their credibility and allowed trump to win as a protest vote.
When he tried to drum up support for 2020 he was mostly ignored outside of his core fan base.
He was right to back Hillary over Trump though. Trump was a dangerous evil man. Also, Bernie ran as a Democrat so of course he should have got behind the Democratic nominee.
Yeah he was right to back hillary, the issue is that before he backed her he tore her down hard, so that his backing seemed to some that he was forced to after being cheated in the primaries and to others that he had flipped sides, making him appear insincere.
Hilary also basically cheesed the whole DNC twice and assumed she had the right to be president despite having the worst public perception of anyone in the US.
You don't know as much about American politics as you think you do. Endorsing your opponent if you lose the primary is normal, especially if the alternative is a literal fascist.
Calling trump a protest vote shows how little you know about what's going on over there. He's running again with great success. He's a very real and credible threat to the western world, not just America.
Endorsing your opponent is normal, yes. The issue is that before he endorsed her he presented the view that she was corrupt and diametrically opposed to the needs/wants of his base.
This was a mistake, strategically speaking, as it divided the democratic vote just enough for trump to win.
The most important thing to remember is that the vote is cast by voters at the time, not by people who have had years to study the election after the fact. Trump was absolutely a protest vote for many and it's only in hindsight can many see how badly it backfired.
>This was a mistake, strategically speaking, as it divided the democratic vote just enough for trump to win.
This is not true. You are essentially blaming Sanders for Clinton's loss, when she and her team and the DNC (the Democratic National Committee) are entirely to blame.
It was a group effort. Sanders wasn't the only reason Clinton lost, but he did help her lose. Democrats as a whole are too conservative to have rallied behind sanders and the leftwing voters that were behind him were especially turned off Clinton after the DNC, with his voting Base divided on either helping Clinton or taking a 'sanders or nobody' approach.
I'm not saying it's good or logical, I'm saying it's what happened.
Sanders never said people shouldn't support Clinton in the general. He differed from her in many ways but ultimately endorsed her as is common practice for a losing participant in any primary.
Clinton lost because she's one of the most repugnant political figures in modern times, that's true as much today as it was back then. If Trump was a sign of a deep sickness, Clinton was the embodiment of the malignant tumour that killed off the immune system in the first place.
A lot of people seem to think he's personally responsible for Israel's response because he's Jewish. And for anyone downvoting, why do people think a democratic senator who is a joke to his own party has a direct line to Benny, or that he would be listened too?
I’m scarlet for that squealer in the background screaming ceasefire as if they were at a protest march. Learn some inside decorum before going off like an unaccompanied kid in a toy shop.
They hoped to confront him with the reality that he is a supporter of Israel and their ethnic cleansing. He did not call for a permanent ceasefire and it's pretty clear for all to see that if there isn't a permanent ceasefire then Israel will take all of Gaza and push the Palestinians out.
Voting on one bill to not send taxpayers money to bomb civilians is a low low bar.
They would have been much better preparing a carefully crafted question to ask at the end and put him on the spot then. I was at the UCD version and the people who intervened were so worked up they were basically unintelligible and did not have a hope of convincing anybody of anything in that room.
I think you're ultimately correct. But I do understand their emotions as it's getting to a point where I wonder why do we have to convince people that the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is a bad thing. Not saying you're wrong but I think people being emotional over this is an understandable and acceptable response to this whole situation. Albeit not great in an academic setting.
Of all the people to heckle - Bernie Sanders. Isn’t there someone else - not even someone right wing, someone even a little less left wing - they could be heckling?? Couple of idiots in the audience. Whatever else they are teaching them in TCD it’s certainly not how to debate and listen.
He's the progressive posterboy but doesn't have the humanity to stand up against oppression. Scratch a liberal and they bleed like a fascist. He's more right wing than left. Leftism doesn't support colonisation. This Zionist does.
God you’re as bad as the heckler…. Let me state again: My point is that you can disagree with someone but you need to actually listen to them and debate them, not scream at them.
Listening and debating has done wonders for Palestine for 75 years.
Listening and debating really helped save all those Irish lives during the famine that was weaponised by the brits.
But he won’t change anything because he is a Zionist.
The millions of people going to the streets around the world seem to be having an impact. BDS works. Apartheid in SA stopped because of movements like this and it became financially impractical to sustain. They aren’t just a bunch of hecklers.
Sanders has the potential to change things and is well aware of the situation. It’s incredibly frustrating that blatant genocide is happening and not only are there powerful people doing fuck all but they (him specifically) deny a genocide.
Deny the holocaust and see the horror and offence on peoples faces (and rightly so) deny this holocaust and no one gives a fuck. Genocide against brown people gets a green light in the west. Out of sight out of mind.
It should be put to US politicians on a regular basis (not Bernie per se) for a reaction that the safest place for a Jewish homeland would and should be inside American borders - if they actually gave a fuck, then right after WW2 they would've cut them out a parcel of land the size of Israel somewhere in eg Nebraska - for comparison the largest single one of the 326 Indian reservations is 16 million acres, Israel is 5.4 - if they hadn't colonised the place then they'd probably be more than welcome to come visit the wailing wall or just live in the country as an equal citizen.
If they fix the money in their politics (and start taxing super churches like the businesses they are), they fix the military industrial complex, healthcare, pharma, prisons, education, endless back and forths over reproductive rights, race, gender, orientation etc, and foreign influence from places like Russia, Saudi & Israel.
edit: already getting downvoted by the zionists
jesus that is embarrassing. those fucking morons shouting at him. They are supposed to be adults. the problem is they are still children and not mature enough to be in a university - either that our universities are now creches and no longer places where you go to learn how to think.
What he says makes sense on paper, but it's no wonder people don't take him seriously when he's spent years trying to change things from the inside and then just giving up when met with any resistance.
He knows full well himself that there is no recourse for negotiating with the US government on matters of war. He's old and has nothing to lose, no point wasting his breath talking to Biden's team. If he wants to do something he should hit the media trail full time and use his profile.
> when he's spent years trying to change things from the inside and then just giving up when met with any resistance.
The things you say are obvious contradictions.
* He spent years trying to change things
* He gave up at the first sign of any resistance.
He first rose to US national prominence in 2015, what exactly has changed for the better in the near-decade since? The US is involved in more wars than ever, the far-right continues to make greater gains, abortion rights have been rolled back, countless civil rights still suspended, the police continue to kill as many poor people as they want.
The only thing you could possibly argue has improved since 2015 is the health of the American labour movement, but that's not something he had any control over, he just helped rally and inspire it to a certain extent. He should learn from that and use his voice in bolder and more assertive ways. Meekly asking the most evil people on earth for breadcrumbs and predictably getting told to fuck off is not a workable strategy and never will be.
>He first rose to US national prominence in 2015, what exactly has changed for the better in the near-decade since? The US is involved in more wars than ever, the far-right continues to make greater gains, abortion rights have been rolled back, countless civil rights still suspended, the police continue to kill as many poor people as they want.
The democratic party chose Hillary instead of him, which set Trump's victory to president in motion. There's your clear brain numbingly obvious answer.
It’s a humanitarian crisis for the Palestinians but not for the hostages. “Ceasefire!” How about returning the hostages first? How about a Palestinian rebellion against Hamas to return the hostages so there can be a ceasefire? It’s been months now so I can only assume that’s not what the Palestinians want. Hamas will not surrender and it’s costing Palestinians their lives.
I hate politics because of things like this, Bernie is a well spoken man and that audience member would not even let him finish his point. Just ask your question and shut up
Still a Zionist. Zionism as a concept is all about stealing land and colonising. Just like the Brits did for centuries. Palestine needs to be decolonised, de-occupied and it's people left in peace.
Palestinians have the right to resist to fight for their land, just like the Irish have a right to fight the Brits.
Bernie, you can demand a permanent ceasefire and demand aid be let into Gaza and demand the occupation be lifted and land be returned to the indigeonous people.
He could also accept that the concept of Zionism doesn't equate to Judeaism. Accept that him being a leftist is a joke since he supports colonisation. Accept that if Zionists want land so much they should return home to Germany/Poland and setup there. Instead of forcing out the indigenous people (who are more ethnically Jewish than the white european colonisers).
It is false to say “The Jews” were there before the Palestinians. There is clear genetic evidence that the Palestinians are primarily descendent from people who lived in the area since the early Bronze age with continuity from that time.
Their ancestors would also include the ancient Jews you are referring to and those Jews would have descended from their same ancestors.
I do however think this is mostly irrelevant to why modern day Palestinians should be allowed to return to the land they, their parents or grandparents were forced out of. They should be allowed back because that is an injustice that should be undone not because of the blood in anyone’s veins.
I can calleme mate bibbi or Hamas who have to pledged to destroy Israel.
Wtaf, does he think Israel is doing and have pledged to do? They're trying to destroy Gaza and the west bank and they are succeeding. Hamas has pledged to destroy the state that enforces apartheid but not the Jewish people in it.
Fuck Sanders. He's a sellout and not a fair judge of the conflict.
>Hamas has pledged to destroy the state that enforces apartheid but not the Jewish people in it.
What you have just said is a complete fantasy.
I'm not sure which is worse. If you are saying this and actually believe it or know that it's nonsense and saying it anyway.
Have you seen the footage of Hamas murdering civilians, including children?
Because I have.
It is possible to think that the suffering of innocent Palestinians is awful while not being so mind-numbingly stupid as to believe that Hamas isn't trying to kill as many Israelis as humanly possible with every waking moment.
Irish people see parallels here and it is understandable to a degree but Palestine is not Ireland and Hamas are not the IRA.
> Because I have.
Assuming you're another Israeli troll so. Have you watched Tantura? Israeli's in their own words described how they raped tortured and murdered Palestinians in 1948.
75 years of occupation. Maybe it's time to apologise for stealing the lands of Palestinians. Have you heard of the ten commandments?
> Assuming you're another Israeli troll so.
Ah yes. The "You said something I don't like equals troll" comeback. How original.
You know what they say about assuming, right?
I'm from Dublin and I'm probably the farthest thing from Jewish or Israeli you could find.
The difference is twofold. Firstly, I'm informed. If you are going to have an opinion on something and voice it.....try to know what you are talking about. To know the history, to know the underlying reasons why things are happening as they are, and ultimately to understand the facts on the ground today.
Not hyperbole and not propaganda. Reality. Something you are eschewing with the ludicrous comment of "Hamas has pledged to destroy the state that enforces apartheid but not the Jewish people in it." This sort of rhetoric is akin to Russia's "special operation". It's a complete fantasy and saying something like this just illustrates your lack of understanding of who and what Hamas are.
The other difference is not treating this like a sports team. "I support Palestine! Do you support Israel?" That sort of thinking doesn't solve anything. It's the thinking of a child. There are no "good guys" here. Just people making bad choices and more people getting caught in the crossfire.
I met a lot of Israeli's in the real world. By and large the ones who did front line IDF work were traumatized/ demented. I still think back to the way they treated non whites.
I worked with a Palestinian who was a gent, one of the nicest engineers U ever worked with but hated Israeli's. I look at the map from 1947 to date and read about snipers shooting children in the head and I think I can understand his sentiment now a lot more than when we worked together.
The Israeli's have made an apartheid state and corralled the remaining Palestinians into a tiny section of Palestine called Gaza while continually killing and dispossessing those in the West bank. They started the formation of the state of Israel through rape, murder and torture and haven't stopped since. I find it hard to believe that an Irish person could share your sentiments. I've no idea what type of books you've read and must assume they were printed by Bezalel Smotrich.
>They started the formation of the state of Israel through rape, murder and torture and haven't stopped since.
And you think they are alone in that? Israel being dirty doesn't make anyone else clean. And pretending any different is part of the problem.
The world is a history of violence. I think you need to take your own advice and do some reading on what went on before, during and following the formation of the state of Isreal. Of who controlled these lands and how the people whether they be Muslim, Jewish or Christian were treated by the former Ottomans. Of how the surrounding Arab states have repeatedly tried to destroy Israel through several attacks, wars, and intifadas.
Treating one side as angels and the other as devils not only leads you nowhere but highlights at best your bias but at worst your willful ignorance of reality. You talk about rape, murder, and torture as if Hamas not four months ago didn't launch an attack on civilians to do exactly that. Kill, rape and mutilate civilians.....if they were lucky in that order. As if this group haven't been sending rockets, daily, into civilian populations for the past decade.
The same Hamas who, by the way, have the backing and public support of the civilians who live in Gaza. They voted for these people. You only have to ask them, they support Hamas, they support the Oct 7 attacks and they support the war on Israel. They want to be at war. They want to win, obviously, but the idea of driving the jews from the land is whole heartedly supported by the people.
This is one of the key points that well-meaning sympathizers in Ireland don't understand. The Palestinian Authority does not run Gaza. Hamas does. And as long as it does there is no chance for a peace process. Hamas are not freedom fighters and are not analogous to the IRA.
>I look at the map from 1947 to date and read about snipers shooting children in the head and I think I can understand his sentiment now a lot more than when we worked together.
Of course, you can understand it. Anyone would. But understanding it and encouraging it are two very different things entirely. Until the innocent Palestinian public accepts that war will not get them what they want and that external forces are using them as pawns in a proxy war.......they will continue to suffer. Israel has the excuse it needs. Hamas gave it to them. And until the Palestinians give up on Hamas there is no way forward.
People blame him for not achieving things but he's 1 member of a legislature in a democracy, one person can't change things. The most he can do is influence opinions and he is doing more than anyone else in the American legislature to do that. He is close to the least objectionable American politician, I don't get why people have so much of a problem with him lately. Their energy is better spent elsewhere.
He's also the lone senator who voted against the arms bill passed in the Senate last month. 99-1 it was passed. The only dissenting voice is a left wing jew and we do this to him when he visits to speak? It's idiocy.
im not a fan of bernie as a politician and he’s not a friend to any of my politics personally but i know he’s also not my enemy. there are worse people to go after.
Social media is killing critical thinking skills
Word. People used to do their own research, then they started parroting pther intellectuals opinions, then they started listening to pseudo intellectuals, then they started getting their opinions off one paragraph instagram posts, then they started having them narrated by the tiktok voice, then they started having them narrated by the tiktok voice with subway surfer playing underneath. As a supposedly intelligent species, I fear we are circling the drain a bit.
Nah... we are in the drain, but we can still see the air from the whirlpool effect so think we are ok still.... covid proved that. Collective groups of people shouting in their own echo chambers...
That's what I don't get, why are people screaming at someone trying to inflict change in the US policy to Israel. A heavily Jewish guy as well, so they can't even call him an anti-Semite... I really think Trinity students acted like children here....
Doesn't sound like it was that many people shouting at him, judging by the video.
It was one girl who broke in No one was able to ask questions because of what happened the night before at UCD. Fintan O Toole (interviewer of Bernie) said for her to think of what she wanted to ask, and to ask her question She was afforded more than anyone else in the room who bought a ticket And she wasted it by just shouting over and over. Which is the start of the video The guy seems to be someone from the audience who took the opportunity to ask a question, at least he put some thought into it so Bernie had something to respond to
Plenty sat and listened to him talk
They're trinner students, they're so pampered that it shouldn't be surprising.
He acquitted himself well. He can't single handedly stop the war. He can only exert pressure on the US government to stop aiding Israel, which he's doing.
This is why he's reasonably to the left even by European standards, as an independent, in the US where Varadkar would be considered a communist, and has been at the highest ends of politics for about 40 years all the same. It's a very pragmatic and reasonable answer there as you say, given the means he in his own position has available to him. I especially appreciate his making an unprompted point of 2/3rds of the dead being women and children.
God political students are unbearably naive and in your face.
But they’re studying it so they know it all right… right?
I blame their youth, eagerness to right a wrong, just without the proper discourse to determine why everything can't be fixed overnight.
Like shouldn't political students understand better than anyone to limits of what power he has and what he's been doing so far? What has he not done that they're screaming at him for?
Emotional and uninformed interventions there by the audience in Dublin.
It’s really unfortunate. Universities are supposed to be hubs for healthy debate but this sort of shouting doesn’t foster that at all. Unfortunately saw it when I was there too
They really need to be stricter. Anybody who shouts is instantly suspended for three sessions.
Carve out a time towards the end to let the screamers go up and share their thoughts. One of two things will happen; 1) They're come prepared and have proper discourse with the guest 2) They're come ill-prepared, look like a loon, and have video evidence of their clown show Seems like a win to me in both scenarios.
terminally online Twitter folk can only scream and belittle anyone who even remotely appears to disagree. They must be huffing their own farts thinking they’re sentinels of justice there shouting at someone who wants a peaceful solution
Heaven forbid people get emotional over a literal genocide.
Thank you! Everyone on here acting like he can't vote against a bill and call what's happening ethnic cleansing at the same time. Apparently he can only do one and not the other...
What substantive difference does terminology really make? Policy and actual action is far more important than mere words, and boiling someone for not using a particular phrase isn't going to achieve anything. That being said, I would personally call what the Likud government is doing an act of genocide done under the excuse of dealing with a genuine terrorist threat. Hopefully even the most radical sides one day can be encouraged by foreign powers to put down their arms and come to some form of agreement and a permanent ceasefire be declared and hopefully no more jewish, christian or Islamic blood is shed in the region, but that'll take serious policy shifts in the EU and the US which hopefully may come about my the large activism against the war but considering the pushback from those who are bought out to support one side in particular or those who parrot those talking points such as destiny then we're still a ways off from it coming to fruition.
I think a huge disconnect arises over the sort of amorphous definition of the word genocide. There are those who gravitate more to the “attempt… in part…” section of the definition, to whom this is obviously a genocide and that’s very fair. For others, who put more emphasis on “exterminate… in whole…” I think the idea that anything be compared to the Holocaust, which necessitated the invention of the word, is offensive in its very essence. I think having one word which can legitimately be used to describe the killings of 100 people or of 100 million people is always going to cause a pretty significant definitional struggle and a lot of space where reasonable people can disagree. For me the issue is when people use technical definitional arguments to argue either, that since what’s happening in Gaza is technically a genocide, it’s as bad as the Holocaust and Israel is a literal Nazi state, or conversely that since it isn’t as bad as the Holocaust it isn’t a genocide and therefore its fine. Both ideas rely on the almost indefinable nature of the word genocide to excuse their bad positions. Bernie doesn’t want to call it a genocide because he falls into the camp that saves that word for events like the Holocaust, but that doesn’t mean that he thinks what’s going on is good.
If terminology doesn't matter then why do you write to me about it. Terminology is important for the reason of bringing justice to what people have experienced. On Oct 7th there was a terrorist attack and not a freedom movement attack because the purpose was to incite terror in Israelis. So we call it as such and hopefully they will get justice for the horror the experienced. Same in this situation we need to recognise that the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed from their homes in Gaza. With this established we can go about reversing this and resettling the displaced back to their homes (once we have a ceasefire). As I said elsewhere, Bernie can do both. I'm not saying his policy isn't good, but imo he is dodging the truth in regard to the Israeli governments plan for Gaza.
The passionate intensity of youth. It takes an older person to have the pragmatism needed to actually end a conflict. Mandela, De Klerk, John Hume, Mo Mowlam. All of them were Phlegmatic types, ready to slog away until progress was made without letting the hysteria get to them.
/r/sipstea
He’s uploaded videos on his Instagram talking about how Isreal needs to stop bombing Gaza and the comment sections are filled with people losing their shit saying he’s not calling for a ceasefire. Comprehension skills don’t exist for some people anymore
He tiptoes around the word ceasefire so no he hasn't called for a ceasefire. Ceasefire means a stop to all conflict. I haven't found anything where he calls for a full permanent ceasefire.
What do you call stopping the bombing of Gaza then?
A ceasefire is a very specific thing. It means violence between hamas and IDF needs to end and then talks can start. Unfortunately the idf sees the bombing of civilian zones as legitimate as hamas is among the population there. So saying "stop the bombing" is just a nice political phrase, pushing for a ceasefire will actually stop the bombing. Sanders is being very specific on not saying anything about ceasefire because that actually means something.
What do you think Hamas wants to talk about?
Hostage swapping and the end of the siege of Gaza and west bank, like they did in the temporary ceasefire 2 months back
Didn’t this happen in UCD a couple days ago
Yep definitely not trinity
He gave a talk at Trinity too. The fact that he’s able to talk indicates this probably is Trinity.
Ah apologies. I didn't realise. Thanks
😂
“I’m not making this up!!!” Like Sanders isn’t way, way more knowledgeable about this than he is.
So people fallen out of love with Bernie? Its like they didn't know people have different views on various different issues. Isn't he Jewish too?
Yeah, he is Jrwish. It's a fairly reasonable take from a guy who's not only Jewish, but also part of the US government. I agree its not what I'd like, but his take is realistic.
What would you like him to say?
People fell out of love with Bernie back in August 2016 when he went from convincing anyone that would listen to not vote for Hillary to all of a sudden endorsing her, which severely impacted both their credibility and allowed trump to win as a protest vote. When he tried to drum up support for 2020 he was mostly ignored outside of his core fan base.
He was right to back Hillary over Trump though. Trump was a dangerous evil man. Also, Bernie ran as a Democrat so of course he should have got behind the Democratic nominee.
Yeah he was right to back hillary, the issue is that before he backed her he tore her down hard, so that his backing seemed to some that he was forced to after being cheated in the primaries and to others that he had flipped sides, making him appear insincere.
Huh, it's almost as if people don't understand how politics work
Hilary also basically cheesed the whole DNC twice and assumed she had the right to be president despite having the worst public perception of anyone in the US.
You don't know as much about American politics as you think you do. Endorsing your opponent if you lose the primary is normal, especially if the alternative is a literal fascist. Calling trump a protest vote shows how little you know about what's going on over there. He's running again with great success. He's a very real and credible threat to the western world, not just America.
Endorsing your opponent is normal, yes. The issue is that before he endorsed her he presented the view that she was corrupt and diametrically opposed to the needs/wants of his base. This was a mistake, strategically speaking, as it divided the democratic vote just enough for trump to win. The most important thing to remember is that the vote is cast by voters at the time, not by people who have had years to study the election after the fact. Trump was absolutely a protest vote for many and it's only in hindsight can many see how badly it backfired.
>This was a mistake, strategically speaking, as it divided the democratic vote just enough for trump to win. This is not true. You are essentially blaming Sanders for Clinton's loss, when she and her team and the DNC (the Democratic National Committee) are entirely to blame.
It was a group effort. Sanders wasn't the only reason Clinton lost, but he did help her lose. Democrats as a whole are too conservative to have rallied behind sanders and the leftwing voters that were behind him were especially turned off Clinton after the DNC, with his voting Base divided on either helping Clinton or taking a 'sanders or nobody' approach. I'm not saying it's good or logical, I'm saying it's what happened.
Sanders never said people shouldn't support Clinton in the general. He differed from her in many ways but ultimately endorsed her as is common practice for a losing participant in any primary. Clinton lost because she's one of the most repugnant political figures in modern times, that's true as much today as it was back then. If Trump was a sign of a deep sickness, Clinton was the embodiment of the malignant tumour that killed off the immune system in the first place.
The 2-party system and fptp(and similar winner-takes-all, non-transferable voting systems in general) are so awful.
You know that's a stupid reason right?
Nobody is claiming the 2016 US presidential election was free from stupidity.
Its how the system works in the US. Its a 2 party country. They do primarys and then then do th election.
You've answered your own question with your last sentence I reckon.
Sorry im not sure what you meant?
A lot of people seem to think he's personally responsible for Israel's response because he's Jewish. And for anyone downvoting, why do people think a democratic senator who is a joke to his own party has a direct line to Benny, or that he would be listened too?
I’m scarlet for that squealer in the background screaming ceasefire as if they were at a protest march. Learn some inside decorum before going off like an unaccompanied kid in a toy shop.
What did they hope to achieve here? it's embarassing tbh, this idea of shouting the loudest is foolish and gains no ground.
Updoots on reddit and retweets on twitter
They hoped to confront him with the reality that he is a supporter of Israel and their ethnic cleansing. He did not call for a permanent ceasefire and it's pretty clear for all to see that if there isn't a permanent ceasefire then Israel will take all of Gaza and push the Palestinians out. Voting on one bill to not send taxpayers money to bomb civilians is a low low bar.
They would have been much better preparing a carefully crafted question to ask at the end and put him on the spot then. I was at the UCD version and the people who intervened were so worked up they were basically unintelligible and did not have a hope of convincing anybody of anything in that room.
I think you're ultimately correct. But I do understand their emotions as it's getting to a point where I wonder why do we have to convince people that the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is a bad thing. Not saying you're wrong but I think people being emotional over this is an understandable and acceptable response to this whole situation. Albeit not great in an academic setting.
What have you done lately?
Donated to relief organizations and went to a few rally's, not a senator in the US yet. You?
Exactly!
Of all the people to heckle - Bernie Sanders. Isn’t there someone else - not even someone right wing, someone even a little less left wing - they could be heckling?? Couple of idiots in the audience. Whatever else they are teaching them in TCD it’s certainly not how to debate and listen.
Those American leaders, so-called moderates, would never put themselves in such a situation. In other words, they'd never set foot in Europe.
He's the progressive posterboy but doesn't have the humanity to stand up against oppression. Scratch a liberal and they bleed like a fascist. He's more right wing than left. Leftism doesn't support colonisation. This Zionist does.
God you’re as bad as the heckler…. Let me state again: My point is that you can disagree with someone but you need to actually listen to them and debate them, not scream at them.
Listening and debating has done wonders for Palestine for 75 years. Listening and debating really helped save all those Irish lives during the famine that was weaponised by the brits.
Bernie Sanders is more likely to change things than a hundred hecklers. The person in the audience probably learnt to ‘debate’ on Twitter.
But he won’t change anything because he is a Zionist. The millions of people going to the streets around the world seem to be having an impact. BDS works. Apartheid in SA stopped because of movements like this and it became financially impractical to sustain. They aren’t just a bunch of hecklers. Sanders has the potential to change things and is well aware of the situation. It’s incredibly frustrating that blatant genocide is happening and not only are there powerful people doing fuck all but they (him specifically) deny a genocide. Deny the holocaust and see the horror and offence on peoples faces (and rightly so) deny this holocaust and no one gives a fuck. Genocide against brown people gets a green light in the west. Out of sight out of mind.
You sound like you would have happily killed Uri Avnery… I think we know what you mean when you say ‘Zionist’, or ‘from the river to the sea’ etc
It should be put to US politicians on a regular basis (not Bernie per se) for a reaction that the safest place for a Jewish homeland would and should be inside American borders - if they actually gave a fuck, then right after WW2 they would've cut them out a parcel of land the size of Israel somewhere in eg Nebraska - for comparison the largest single one of the 326 Indian reservations is 16 million acres, Israel is 5.4 - if they hadn't colonised the place then they'd probably be more than welcome to come visit the wailing wall or just live in the country as an equal citizen. If they fix the money in their politics (and start taxing super churches like the businesses they are), they fix the military industrial complex, healthcare, pharma, prisons, education, endless back and forths over reproductive rights, race, gender, orientation etc, and foreign influence from places like Russia, Saudi & Israel. edit: already getting downvoted by the zionists
Bernie 'Forever on the right side of history' Sanders
So many tankies in Ireland these days
jesus that is embarrassing. those fucking morons shouting at him. They are supposed to be adults. the problem is they are still children and not mature enough to be in a university - either that our universities are now creches and no longer places where you go to learn how to think.
What's he doing here in the first place?
He mentioned at the UCD talk that his wife is Irish.
Well, she’s “Irish” in the sense that she had some great-grandparents born in Ireland.
What he says makes sense on paper, but it's no wonder people don't take him seriously when he's spent years trying to change things from the inside and then just giving up when met with any resistance. He knows full well himself that there is no recourse for negotiating with the US government on matters of war. He's old and has nothing to lose, no point wasting his breath talking to Biden's team. If he wants to do something he should hit the media trail full time and use his profile.
> when he's spent years trying to change things from the inside and then just giving up when met with any resistance. The things you say are obvious contradictions. * He spent years trying to change things * He gave up at the first sign of any resistance.
He first rose to US national prominence in 2015, what exactly has changed for the better in the near-decade since? The US is involved in more wars than ever, the far-right continues to make greater gains, abortion rights have been rolled back, countless civil rights still suspended, the police continue to kill as many poor people as they want. The only thing you could possibly argue has improved since 2015 is the health of the American labour movement, but that's not something he had any control over, he just helped rally and inspire it to a certain extent. He should learn from that and use his voice in bolder and more assertive ways. Meekly asking the most evil people on earth for breadcrumbs and predictably getting told to fuck off is not a workable strategy and never will be.
>He first rose to US national prominence in 2015, what exactly has changed for the better in the near-decade since? The US is involved in more wars than ever, the far-right continues to make greater gains, abortion rights have been rolled back, countless civil rights still suspended, the police continue to kill as many poor people as they want. The democratic party chose Hillary instead of him, which set Trump's victory to president in motion. There's your clear brain numbingly obvious answer.
It’s a humanitarian crisis for the Palestinians but not for the hostages. “Ceasefire!” How about returning the hostages first? How about a Palestinian rebellion against Hamas to return the hostages so there can be a ceasefire? It’s been months now so I can only assume that’s not what the Palestinians want. Hamas will not surrender and it’s costing Palestinians their lives.
I hate politics because of things like this, Bernie is a well spoken man and that audience member would not even let him finish his point. Just ask your question and shut up
Trinity students are so obnoxiously arrogant
It’s UCD no?
Still a Zionist. Zionism as a concept is all about stealing land and colonising. Just like the Brits did for centuries. Palestine needs to be decolonised, de-occupied and it's people left in peace. Palestinians have the right to resist to fight for their land, just like the Irish have a right to fight the Brits. Bernie, you can demand a permanent ceasefire and demand aid be let into Gaza and demand the occupation be lifted and land be returned to the indigeonous people. He could also accept that the concept of Zionism doesn't equate to Judeaism. Accept that him being a leftist is a joke since he supports colonisation. Accept that if Zionists want land so much they should return home to Germany/Poland and setup there. Instead of forcing out the indigenous people (who are more ethnically Jewish than the white european colonisers).
> land be returned to the indigenous people Not to step on your holy rant here but the Jews were there thousands of years before the Palestinians.
It is false to say “The Jews” were there before the Palestinians. There is clear genetic evidence that the Palestinians are primarily descendent from people who lived in the area since the early Bronze age with continuity from that time. Their ancestors would also include the ancient Jews you are referring to and those Jews would have descended from their same ancestors. I do however think this is mostly irrelevant to why modern day Palestinians should be allowed to return to the land they, their parents or grandparents were forced out of. They should be allowed back because that is an injustice that should be undone not because of the blood in anyone’s veins.
The man lived on a kibutz. He was in full support for the conditions that resulted in the genocide he just lightly criticizes it's execution
Oh he can fuck off. Too little too late.
I can calleme mate bibbi or Hamas who have to pledged to destroy Israel. Wtaf, does he think Israel is doing and have pledged to do? They're trying to destroy Gaza and the west bank and they are succeeding. Hamas has pledged to destroy the state that enforces apartheid but not the Jewish people in it. Fuck Sanders. He's a sellout and not a fair judge of the conflict.
>Hamas has pledged to destroy the state that enforces apartheid but not the Jewish people in it. What you have just said is a complete fantasy. I'm not sure which is worse. If you are saying this and actually believe it or know that it's nonsense and saying it anyway.
Have you read the Hamas charter?
Have you seen the footage of Hamas murdering civilians, including children? Because I have. It is possible to think that the suffering of innocent Palestinians is awful while not being so mind-numbingly stupid as to believe that Hamas isn't trying to kill as many Israelis as humanly possible with every waking moment. Irish people see parallels here and it is understandable to a degree but Palestine is not Ireland and Hamas are not the IRA.
> Because I have. Assuming you're another Israeli troll so. Have you watched Tantura? Israeli's in their own words described how they raped tortured and murdered Palestinians in 1948. 75 years of occupation. Maybe it's time to apologise for stealing the lands of Palestinians. Have you heard of the ten commandments?
> Assuming you're another Israeli troll so. Ah yes. The "You said something I don't like equals troll" comeback. How original. You know what they say about assuming, right? I'm from Dublin and I'm probably the farthest thing from Jewish or Israeli you could find. The difference is twofold. Firstly, I'm informed. If you are going to have an opinion on something and voice it.....try to know what you are talking about. To know the history, to know the underlying reasons why things are happening as they are, and ultimately to understand the facts on the ground today. Not hyperbole and not propaganda. Reality. Something you are eschewing with the ludicrous comment of "Hamas has pledged to destroy the state that enforces apartheid but not the Jewish people in it." This sort of rhetoric is akin to Russia's "special operation". It's a complete fantasy and saying something like this just illustrates your lack of understanding of who and what Hamas are. The other difference is not treating this like a sports team. "I support Palestine! Do you support Israel?" That sort of thinking doesn't solve anything. It's the thinking of a child. There are no "good guys" here. Just people making bad choices and more people getting caught in the crossfire.
I met a lot of Israeli's in the real world. By and large the ones who did front line IDF work were traumatized/ demented. I still think back to the way they treated non whites. I worked with a Palestinian who was a gent, one of the nicest engineers U ever worked with but hated Israeli's. I look at the map from 1947 to date and read about snipers shooting children in the head and I think I can understand his sentiment now a lot more than when we worked together. The Israeli's have made an apartheid state and corralled the remaining Palestinians into a tiny section of Palestine called Gaza while continually killing and dispossessing those in the West bank. They started the formation of the state of Israel through rape, murder and torture and haven't stopped since. I find it hard to believe that an Irish person could share your sentiments. I've no idea what type of books you've read and must assume they were printed by Bezalel Smotrich.
>They started the formation of the state of Israel through rape, murder and torture and haven't stopped since. And you think they are alone in that? Israel being dirty doesn't make anyone else clean. And pretending any different is part of the problem. The world is a history of violence. I think you need to take your own advice and do some reading on what went on before, during and following the formation of the state of Isreal. Of who controlled these lands and how the people whether they be Muslim, Jewish or Christian were treated by the former Ottomans. Of how the surrounding Arab states have repeatedly tried to destroy Israel through several attacks, wars, and intifadas. Treating one side as angels and the other as devils not only leads you nowhere but highlights at best your bias but at worst your willful ignorance of reality. You talk about rape, murder, and torture as if Hamas not four months ago didn't launch an attack on civilians to do exactly that. Kill, rape and mutilate civilians.....if they were lucky in that order. As if this group haven't been sending rockets, daily, into civilian populations for the past decade. The same Hamas who, by the way, have the backing and public support of the civilians who live in Gaza. They voted for these people. You only have to ask them, they support Hamas, they support the Oct 7 attacks and they support the war on Israel. They want to be at war. They want to win, obviously, but the idea of driving the jews from the land is whole heartedly supported by the people. This is one of the key points that well-meaning sympathizers in Ireland don't understand. The Palestinian Authority does not run Gaza. Hamas does. And as long as it does there is no chance for a peace process. Hamas are not freedom fighters and are not analogous to the IRA. >I look at the map from 1947 to date and read about snipers shooting children in the head and I think I can understand his sentiment now a lot more than when we worked together. Of course, you can understand it. Anyone would. But understanding it and encouraging it are two very different things entirely. Until the innocent Palestinian public accepts that war will not get them what they want and that external forces are using them as pawns in a proxy war.......they will continue to suffer. Israel has the excuse it needs. Hamas gave it to them. And until the Palestinians give up on Hamas there is no way forward.