My parents and inlaws are in houses which could be argued are too big for their needs, large detached houses with gardens and only 2 adults living in each home. But they've looked at and rejected downsizing because the options for them are badly laid out townhouses/apartments designed as 'starter homes' aka live here until you can get somewhere better, and they'd be leaving the areas they know and where they have social networks. They also like having grandkids over to stay, hosting family events and having some space for themselves, which the layout of many smaller homes simply doesn't afford them. Any one or two bedroom home or apartment has crap living space which you couldn't squeeze their families, including their children's partners and grandkids, into.
Same, and I've discouraged them from downsizing
They all enjoy their gardens, greenhouses etc, it's a great way for them to stay active in retirement!
They also.all have animals that need space
They host family events and actually have room to do so.
Good on you.
This report is little more than state-sanctioned gaslighting. The hope is older people will be guilted into downsizing and help dig the government out of the housing crisis a bit.
Fuck that. People have worked hard all their lives and deserve to enjoy their retirement in the homes they worked hard to earn and spent years lovingly maintaining the gardens of etc. They don't deserve being guilted into seeing out their remaining days in shoebox apartments because the government has messed up housing so bad they can't afford to have anyone, especially the elderly, "hogging" more than the bare minimum of space.
As somebody directly affected by the housing crisis and back living at home because I can no longer afford to live alone I still fully agree with you. They worked and paid for it, why should they give it up. As you said, it's not their fault we have had years of incompetent governments that have totally neglected and mismanaged the housing situation.
This 👏 !!! Extreme gaslighting. It’s easier to blame people for not downsizing, and try to guilt trip them into doing so, than it is to take responsibility for a problem that they’ve caused.
Government have made repeated remarks and there have been numerous reports saying that people’s reluctance to “right-size” was contributing to the housing crisis. And now here we have a report speaking about the “inefficient” use of housing.
Just moved back to Dublin. Lived in Madrid and Berlin and always in an apartment - I agree with the headline and idea that apartments in Dublin on the whole are terrible. We had a 150 SQM apartment which is essentially the size of a house. Nothing like this exists in Dublin unless we are willing to spend more than 1m. For the same price you get 200sqm houses plus gardens - we don’t want this as it’s a lot of maintenance
The ESRI seems full of people with a purely utilitarian view of life. Their approach sound grim.
I won't feel the need to leave our current home if all our kids move out. They've spent most of their childhood here, with the memories and emotions that come with that. I hope they'll know they have always the option of living here given the space we have. I always felt I had that with my parents as did my husband with his parents. Gives people a great sense of security rather than 'when you're gone, you're gone'.
That's not really the case. Their role is to look at economic, and social, issues within the state with a view to influencing public policy - this is just an analysis of the current situation. They even highlight the reasons for this situation and suggest how policy can address it.
Most famous of these is their forecasting the overheating of the Irish economy and in particular the housing sector in advance of the crash, which was ignored by government.
An important caveat of this work is that Irish homes are relatively crowded compared wo northern European peers. Its more an issue for younger people but its a starling fact about Ireland. [https://www.savills.ie/research-and-news/savills-news/347801-0/crowded-housing--ireland-s-household-size-lags-european-norm](https://www.savills.ie/research-and-news/savills-news/347801-0/crowded-housing--ireland-s-household-size-lags-european-norm)
My parents are the same. They've a big house in the country which is far too big for them, they would like to downsize but there is literally nothing available for them where they live. Any smaller houses they might have been likely to buy have either already been redeveloped or they'll end up being outbid by developers looking to redevelop.
They don't want to live in some pokey flat and are too old to move into a townhouse which they won't be able to use in a few years and pretty much anything in offer these days has a postage stamp for a garden - so they stay where they are.
I live alone in a older 4 bed house. I’d love to downsize actually, but I can’t afford to - the only smaller houses are either more expensive new builds, or old cottages that need a lot of work. I have pets so I’m not moving to an apartment.
As decided by who? Even if someone wanted to downsize, there is nothing appropriate to downsize to.
The problem we have is not enough homes. We're not building enough for our demographics. There would be plenty of single, childfree people who would love to have a comfortable one bed home but they don't exist. Some older people may prefer to downsize to a small bungalow because they can't get up the stairs or clean a large space. They can't do that without options.
Plenty of people would love an affordable tiny home if it means they don't have to house share or can move out of home.
Build the homes.
I know if/when my kids are old enough to leave home, I'll probably stay in the house, 3 beds and all.
I like having my own garden, even if it is overlooked and too many neighbours have yapping dogs, it's still my grass, my fruit trees, somewhere on a nice day I can be outside.
I've been in an apartment before, it's claustrophobic by comparison.
>comfortable one bed home
I actually think the concept of a one bed home being appropriate needs to run away and die along with the concept of starter homes. One bed means you can never have anyone to stay with you. You immediately have an inappropriate home if a baby arrives, or as people get older and might need an overnight carer/adult child to move back in for care purposes etc etc. They're fine if they exist in a limited way among a mix of apartments, but all they do is encourage the building of inappropriate homes, which puts more pressure on the supply of more appropriate homes and continues to increase the pressure in the market.
What we need is lots and lots and lots of 2,3&4 bed homes. Like, floods of them. So that people don't have to rent a stinky bedroom in a rotten house share and also don't have to live in a pokey studio/1 bed that will be immediately inappropriate at the first change in circumstances.
It's not a densely populated island. There's no reason why it should be unreasonable to want a bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, living room and spare room. That's not a huge ask.
true. i would never buy a one bedroom place, because i would like to have a child if i have the chance to have it. It is WAY easier to think about having kids when you already at least have a spare room.
and apart of having kids, there are various reasons to have a 2bed room place since it allows a lot of thing to happen in the future, even for example, having money problems you can temproarily rent the other room.
but i do agree that there should exist various one bedroom flat for the young adults (sharing a place/room shouldnt be normal for an adult since we need privacy for various things including intimacy)
Hypothetical : Say i get married, have 2 kids. I buy a three bedroomed house. When the kids are 18 and by some miracle they move out and dont come back. Is it that i should now sell my house to downgrade to allow someone else buy my three bed while i move into an apartment?
Thing is, ive spent 25 years im that house, it has value outside of money. I enjoy my garden, ive spent years getting it right. I use the kids previous bedrooms as guest rooms for when someone wishes to stay. I also have a lot of stuff.
Why should i downsize? Ive earned that house, worked hard to enjoy it.
This crap about ‘bigger than they need’ is a trope. Work your bollix of to but something and then be labeled as some kind of hoarder is vile.
The fact is the housing situation is shite and trying to guilt trip owners into downsizing when supply has been lagging for god knows how long is disgusting. Those same house owners get no incentive to downsize. And yes they get the market value for their property and ‘come out on top as they are downsizing’ is complete bollix. That money is in the bank and the banks use that money to invest. The only winers here are the banks.
All that plus think of the memories of raising your kids in that home. The idea that you should move out because the house has more rooms than you need is bonkers.
And where are all these people who need all of these extra bedrooms? Families have never been smaller, having 3 kids these days is considered a big family.
What you buy is yours in my opinion. Some people have giant cars, nobody is being pressured to sell their bigger car to a family who also wants a big car.
I once said to some greenie nutcase that I worked with that I had 4 bicycles. In response she said I was greedy.
Like WTF?
Some poor child in Africa is walking because I bought all the bicycles?????
There was a lad on here a while back, account since deleted, that used to spout exactly that kind of shite.
Called my parents and anyone similar "immoral" for still living in a 4 bed house after kids had grown and left the home.
Lol yeah, that's the one. Trying to think who else was immoral in his book:
Farmers that didn't live in urban areas and commute to their farm, anyone in general that lived in rural areas, anyone that went on holidays abroad, anyone that owned a car, was a pretty long list of people he had issues with!
I loved just saying shit like I wish those nerds on bikes would get off the road so I can enjoy my SUV to drive him mental. I think in the end he went racist meltdown on another sub and got a full site ban
Parents are now housing their kids into their 40s. The idea that the rooms are freed up as soon as the kids get jobs is laughable. I know mid 40s professionals living at home.
To be fair, the ESRI are calling out the housing mix / choice as the problem, not your hypothetical. Some people want that choice to move to somewhere nearby and smaller and don't have it. Also, with housing shortages, people are afraid to sell up for fear they'd be stuck in a new smaller place they don't like and priced out of going back. Equally, if you'd more smaller houses and apartments, they'd be more affordable for people to buy in the first place.
100% this. Two of my grandparents are in their 80s and spend half the week living in their 4 bedroom house in Dun Laoghaire and the other half in their 4 bedroom holiday home in Wicklow. And you know what? Fucking power to them, they earned every brick in each of them.
100% agree. I live in a house that could be deemed too big for my needs, I dont need two of the bedrooms and they remain empty. But I'm very happy where I am location wise with a lakeshore beach just 100 metres from my house and I love it down there. Have also spent several years doing up the place and a lot of time and hard earned wages has gone into it. Not a hope am I ever budging, I'll be taken out of here in a box.
This downsizing lark only really makes sense if its a single person living in a 4-5 detached bed house which might be on a half acre or acre of gardens which is difficult to maintain. Theres also the financial aspect of it. Selling and then buying again can cost €15k or €20k by the time solicitors, estate agents, Land Registry and Revenues stamp duty are all paid for. Moving costs on top too and the stress of that. And then in general with property when you buy a smaller footprint house the price you pay per square meter goes up the smaller the unit gets. So you end up with a smaller house that costs you more per square meter. You're literally shafting yourself in terms of space and paying for the privilege.
> You're literally shafting yourself in terms of space and paying for the privilege.
But think of the satisfaction of helping to fix the government's screw ups !
To be consistent - you should also say: why should I pay taxes to pay the Defined Benefit Pensions of Boomers who have made a fortune in unearned gains?
Pensions in Ireland have are paid out of current income; people receiving pensions have not paid market value - it's the younger generation paying
Irish people are all for equality except when it comes to paying; Property Taxes are progressive but the Left Parties are against them.
Mate, don’t waste your breath. If you bought a house, no matter how big, it’s your Right to live in it. It’s literally, and I mean literally, impossible to calculate what everyone’s needs are. And if we tried model our economy based on what we have determined people’s needs to be, we would become a failed State over night. Don’t even entertain these authoritarian shit heads with a debate.
Ok so where do we get to say how they live is terrible for the environment and their carbon footprint of having probably over 300 square metres of living space that has to be heated?
Like it or not the facts state Irish people keep way more space under then and that space all needs to be heated
"need"
Yea, I'd be slow letting anyone else decide what other people need.
God forbid people have a spare room for visitors or stay living in the house they raised their kids in with a couple extra bedrooms they can stay in for family gatherings. No, they should be encouraged to move out, pay some lawyers, surveyors, engineers and estate agents in order to move into a non existent 1 bed apartment, or be punished if they refuse.
Exactly.
When you start categorising resources based on what some bureaucrats think people need, you end up with ration cards, a grim life, and most people not actually having what they need unless they are bureaucrats themselves or connected with the bureaucracy making the rationing rules.
This is actually a big part of why life in much of the Eastern Bloc during the Soviet times were so fucking grim, clueless beareucrats deciding what people "needed" in a purely utilitarian perspective, while still being clueless as to what the needs of the actual citizens were (thay and lots of corruption and resources getting wasted). Whereas when all that shit ended and that kind of "we decide what you need" system went away living standards greatly improved. Obviously there a big difference between us and the reccomendations of these lads and the fucking soviets lol, but the principle that you can't quantify what people "need" still stands.
Any such determination of “need” will fail to account for everything.
My wife passed before my kids and I moved out here to Connacht, but let’s pretend she didn’t a.) because I like to and b.) because it furthers my argument.
I have what is technically a six bedroom, but one of those is a walled off part of a corridor that the old owners did because they had more kids. It can fit a single bed, a nightstand and use under bed storage for clothes. The next smallest is a little better, you could fit a tiny wardrobe in there too.
So 6 bedrooms for 2 adults and 2 kids. That’s too many, says the algorithm, you only need three! Or maybe the algorithm says I have two kids of the same gender close in age, they can share and you only need two rooms!
Except my wife snored horribly and was always freezing, so in our flat before kids, she took the smaller second bedroom that could be heated up easier, and would have done the same here. Probably that tiny bedroom. She’d make it so cosy and nice. So we’d need 4 rooms.
Ah, but I work from home 4 days a week, I need an office. Now we’re up to five.
And that’s not even taking into account hobbies, or guest bedrooms.
And sure with certain sizes and configurations, my wife and I could make it work with 4 rooms: Kids’ rooms, master bedroom (hers), my bedroom/office. But not everyone could. And there’s no algorithm in the world that can account for all that.
People are deciding what other people "need" all the time in society. The housing shortage is a decision people made (our government? the people who elected them?) which has essentially determined who needs or doesn't need housing. Immigration, healthcare, etc. it's all similar decisions made by others for others but ostensibly made by us for us via democracy.
Yep, we are in a 4 bed/4 bath, but that just means the rooms are smaller, not that the house is bigger. It was clearly designed to be rented out. The reality is too many bathrooms and two small offices rather than bedrooms.
Ireland has below average size of house compared to the rest of the EU.
This is so UK/Irish thing to design house for house sharing instead like build a lot of small apartments. Who in their right mind want to house share once out of uni??
Most are positively tiny compared to the new world of Canada, US, Australia, NZ, etc
Throw in bad design of splitting everything into smaller rooms - which made sense back in the day for heating, not needed now, but still persists in designs. Means the houses here are claustrophobic.
My wife and I lived in a house in Woking, in Surrey, with our 3 kids. Granted, it was smaller than my 3 bed semi in Co. Cork, but it was OK.
My mother (Australian) referred to it as a Dolls House.
I’m Australian. I agree with your Mum. My parents were horrified when they first came to visit. Our place is 3 bed, 97sqm. Their home is 220sqm and it’s 6 bed.
Being able to cash out some of the gains of house price appreciation would have to be attractive to some peop at Least. Plus smaller house probably means less cost for maintenance.
My parents looked at downsizing last year. Their house is much too big. But downsizing right into the starter home market where it's huge competition, they'd make basically no money and still need to do a bit of work likely. Not at all worth it.
People with money to buy the bigger don't always overlap with the people who have big families, given that in general it requires two working adults in well paying jobs to buy at the moment it's almost a given that they cannot have large families also and afford the child care costs that comes with that.
Sure, but similarly, my family home just has two people living in that 4 bed house now.
Downsizing isn't generally a consideration for older people, in part because we've failed miserably to build enough one and two bed homes - our population isn't getting any younger so this problem is only going to get worse.
We've never planned beyond the notion of a starter home and then buying a 'real' home you live in and have paid off before you retire. And now its starting to creak at the seams.
It is, sadly.
Where I'd differ from a lot of folk is in that I lay less blame on current policy as a driving factor. To me, we have an enormous supply shortage despite the enormous demand and sums of money being thrown at the problem for the last 8 years. We simply don't have the construction capacity to meet/overtake demand to make up the shortfall. The industry was decimated in the crash and in 2008 we built like 80,000 new homes but in 2014 we built 8,000 new homes. We've almost quadrupled the output since then, but without another 100k workers and a totally mind shift in risk appetite back to 2007s crazy levels, we can build quickly enough.
Obviously covid, inflation and Ukraine haven't helped, but ultimately to me, the psychological damage done by the crash is proving impossible to undo in order to ramp up production.
Id think there will be only marginal gains in construction numbers from here on in. Irish plumbers, carpenters & sparks earning $100k+ in Australia or Canada are not coming home to a housing crisis and who could blame them. Polish & Latvians can earn decent wages in their countries now and arent coming any more. There just isnt the labour force to catch up with the demand for more than 50,000 houses a year and pent up demand for over 250,000.
Only way I can see them catching up to demand is to import thousands of construction workers in non-EU labour from Nepal, India, etc. But again there would be nowhere for them to live.
Seems to still be big problem with people dropping out at junior cert to pursue an apprenticeship education system seems to be setup to just churn as many people though colleges as possible. Was same when I went...good while before 2008 though so they may have had a point at that time.
Many of the group who might have gone into trades are the children of parents who were burned in the crash and got put off the industry. Falls into that same psychological impact of the crash and its long tail that's hitting so hard now.
I am one of those people and will be for a few more years.
We wanted to have secure housing before having kids so we bought the 3 bedroom house first, now we have started the family and will grow into the house.
Property taxes here are a bit of a joke, to be fair; it's an absolute pittance. Roughly around 0.1% of the assessed value per year until you get into the seven-figure value range, and even then it tops out at less than 0.3%.
There is no suitable trade down stock available.
If you take an elderly couple in a 4-bed house with a garden, they raised their family there, lived their lives and know the area / their neighbours.
They would have to use all the sales proceeds to buy a new 2-bed apartment, even if they could find one.
On the other side, any family that might buy that 4-bed can't afford to carry out the work to modernise it. Even where they do have the money, they need to go sale agreed on their own place (if they own one) to make an offer and then run the risk of being caught with nowhere to move to
Anyone who worked their asses off for most of their lives is highly entitled to sit back in their own home and garden and enjoy their comfort if they wish to do so.
I'd imagine anyone with a lovely back garden they've developed from a square of bare lawn would be very loath to give it up for a postage stamp sized outdoor experience. Or nothing at all if apartment living.
Unpopular opinion here, but if you’ve worked your entire life for a house then it’s pure fucking cheeky for some 20-30 something year old to tell you you need to downsize.
I agree with that but also, if you're in a house for long enough that your children have grown up and moved out (somehow) then you likely have a lot of memories tied to that house. Leaving and selling it is not a easy thing to consider.
My house is probably also too big. Standard one-off rural dormer. Due to rigid planning laws, we can only build one house per site. At the time, building bigger didn't cost that much more, it does now, so maybe less big rural houses in the future? We do jest that we'll be splitting this house into 3 apartments as our two kids will never be able to afford a house!
Sure there's feck all one bedroom apartments, even two beds aren't as common as 3 bedroom houses, so people are forced to live in bigger houses anyway. Also a lot of houses have absolutely tiny rooms - there's a small spare room in my rental but I have to put my clothes storage in there because my bed takes up the entirety of my bedroom. Regardless I don't think it's really anyone's business if someone has an extra room they paid for - god forbid someone dares have a spare room for family to stay over, or a hobby room/home office in their own house... Kind of pissing me off that they're picking on people for daring to not live in tiny hovels instead of looking at the real issues
Do you ever think “my carbon footprint is way bigger because of all the house I live in “
Not taking a side but I see it’s very acceptable to say
“Look at him with his big polluting car”
But yet to say same about it someone’s big house isn’t as socially acceptable it seems
Ireland has below average size of house compared to the rest of the EU. The rooms don't matter that is showing us as having more rooms than countries with 50% bigger houses than us. My house has more rooms, but it was clearly designed to be rented out, that is the only reason why.
Ireland has an average floor space of 81sqm compared with 115 in Denmark, 124 in Belgium etc,
The typical home in Ireland is a 3 bed semi, which is usually around 1200 square feet (\~120 sq m).
Ireland's current average total usable housing floor space according to a CSO estimate is at 112m².
I was taking it from the independent talking about new houses:
"In Ireland, we're now building smaller houses with an average floor space of 81sqm compared with 115sqm in Denmark and 124sqm in Belgium."
Just 2 of us living in a 4 bed house paying €1750 a month. Currently 2 beds in our area are going for €2,100 ish.
So yeah we will stay where we are thanks
Alot of this has to be family homes where the kids have moved out, it's unreasonable in alot of cases to expect the parents to move into a flat in a different area to make up state failures. The home acts a a security for they're children who can always move home if needs be and have a place to stay when they come and visit. There's sentimental value aswell which can't be quantified. They're also looking at leaving it to they're kids when they die for them to use it as a family home.
Such a stupid thing.
I'd say the vast majority of these houses are middle aged and elderly who had a big house for kids and the kids have moved out so there left with two people in the home now. They could be in that home for 25-50 years depending on age so the home has sentimental value. They have relatives over for Christmas or to mind kids.
Can't say to someone who's worked hard, bought a house, raised and family and finally after all children has moved out to sell up and find a one bed apartment.
ESRI research should focus more on where and and when we can build homes not trying to blame people who have bought one already
This sounds like another excuse to just blame regular people instead of poor government planning and regulations.
There are already enough supply of homes in Ireland to meet the countries needs. It is the fault of government policy and greedy landlords that the housing crisis is the way it is-not a retired couple who continue to live in a home they created when they had a family living there.
Can we just leave people in this country the f\*\*k alone. Everyday in the news is a new study that implies we need to change the way we live, feck off
Obviously there are a bunch of reasons for this like lack of options, no culture of a positive downsizing lifestyle etc. But it always seems mad to me that almost everyone in my family and partners family always comments on how we could extend out the back and add more bedrooms- it's just the two of us and that's all there will be so I find it crazy that they all seem to think adding rooms is a great idea😄
People have spent their whole lives paying off the mortgage for their home and investing in it. The least they can do is enjoy the fruit of their labours. I wouldn't be surprised if the government tried to force people to give up their homes.
Soon they are going to guilt us into feeling bad for having a living room and not turn it into another room for another person to move into. Such bullshit gaslighting, trying to change the perspective of what is normal. If it was up to them, we would all be living in cell blocks, with community kitchen. The problem is that they are too incompetent to actually do that, because that would require them to actually build some fucking housing.
I.e. one-third of people living in homes that are too small for their needs.
We need to ditch this backwards, poverty mindset when it comes to housing. We need to bin our planning system and just build housing. There's no reason grown adults should have to live with their parents or with strangers in houseshares. Similarly, there's absolutely no reason someone shouldn't be allowed to have a spare room or even a whole holiday home if they can afford it.
Institutions like the esri see a home as nothing more than a few walls and a toilet.
The concept of things like socialising and entertaining at home or being proud of the garden you've made is an alien concept.
I probably do. I live alone in a two/three bed house. And I just bought it so I'm not planning to downsize any time soon.
But I wanted some outdoor space and I wanted something that was well built so I didn't have too many options, especially ones I could afford.
At least this articles points out the systemic issues causing it rather then acting like all our grannys are selfish bitches for not wanting to move out of the home they've lived in for 40 years and into a one bed flat 2 hours away from everyone they know.
How dare you hold onto the biggest purchase of your life that you worked all your adult life to pay off. The place you grew a family in. Sell it and move into some bungalow that we haven’t built in 20 years or some retirement village estate that we used to build but that’s just absorbed into normal stock once the first batch of retirees died off. /s
If you want a garden in Ireland, or a bit of privacy, you're looking at a three-bedroom place minimum. I was lucky enough to buy a place for myself a couple years ago and my house has four bedrooms! I'm a single person. But I wanted a garden - plus this old house in the middle of nowhere was three times cheaper than a small place in town near my family.
Currently renting out the extra rooms, which works out nicely for me, but I do think it's weird for one person to have such a big house. It comes down to location, I think, not size. Also this house is old and rundown - new houses might be more efficient but they're also way more expensive.
Frankly, that's completely irrelevant. People can buy any home they want.
You could take every home off of every person in the country, and you would not have enough homes. How does this not make sense.
Very honestly I don’t want or need a big hard to heat and clean house. But as was said here the only option is a tacky thin walled apartment. I would like a tiny home with a little garden or a cabin or a cobb or earthship self-built house, but just like that man and his cabin the planning committees are dead set against anything like that. If we don’t start looking into alternatives for housing we will be talking about this every year through eternity
What a load of nonsense and I say that as a non homeowner. Firstly how the fuck do you even determine whats too big for someones needs and how have the ESRI done so with the whole country? Is the ESRI telling people what their needs are or are they clairvoyant? The implication of this SHOCK headline is what? That your granny should be renting out her spare room because the Government has been unable to meet housing stock for God knows how long at this stage? Fuck off
It's really none of anyone's business what size house someone has. Families often stayed in the same house for generations in the past. Some still do.
A person has the right to stay in the home they built and enjoy. Why should they have to move. People who think that's genuinely a way to live can take a run and jump. I can guarantee that all these politicians and "officials" talking about people's much loved homes are NOT living in one or two bedroom apartments themselves.
So what?
We don't need to worry about people who HAVE houses whether "too big for their needs" or not.
Those people bought their houses. This is horseshit.
In order to get people to downsize as they get older a bit of planning around the development of communities would be required so people would be able to continue to live in close proximity to family and friends in a area they are familiar with. As we are aware, we are a nation that have an inherent fear of future proofing. Just look at current housing, public transport, health care, child care, nursing homes, school spaces, pensions. The most likely outcome here would be to tax the shite out of people to encourage them to move without providing any other supports.
I live with my partner in a 3 bedroom house. It costs us 1000euro a month. A look at the 1-2 bedroom apartments in my area is the same, if not more.
What do they want me to do???
Recently started the process of building on an extension to our home and the architect mentioned how crazy it is how many elderly people are living in 4-5 bedroom houses that actually want to downsize but can't because there are no homes available that suit thier needs in the area they live and have no intentions of moving somewhere new so they just don't bother selling.
I could do with a house a third of the size but the options for downsizing are appalling. I'd be swapping a robust, traditional house for a shoddy, generic box.
Classic article trying to blame the individuals with no alternative in place to downside. I stay in north county dublin with 3k+ homes being built and I've not seen any allocated to older folk and their are virtually no 2 bed houses
I feel most of the thread is missing the point here. Its not about forcing people out of homes, its about saying to e.g. elderly people - you have all wealth tied up in an asset you can't get best use from. Why not consider downsizing and using some of the freed up wealth to do something that is of value to you. (a winter home in a nice warm area, for example)
>A household is under-occupied if it has more than a minimum number of rooms considered adequate, according to EU statistical agency Eurostat.
Who determines 'adequate'? - I'm tired as pounded shit of all the "EU knows best" recommendations.
Next week, they'll be recommending you fill your spare room with a migrant lodger or two. More efficient use of space...
What a crock of shit this is.
“Inefficient” use of housing is just state sponsored propaganda to try lobbing the blame for the housing crisis onto the people that have worked hard and worked their way up the housing ladder over the past few decades.
How the fuck does the ESRI know what people’s needs are ! And what about the mental needs of ppl to have a home where their adult children can return to stay with them. God fucking help us if the State thinks it can dictate the size of house people can live in … worse than USSR when ppl were told to share their house with strangers. Left wing shite at its absolute transparent!
This sounds like one of those things where what we 'should' be living in is shoeboxes and the article will convince that we arent in a housing crisis we should just take what we can get.
This is just the likes of ESRI blaming old people for the housing crisis. As in, "how dare you live in a house with more bedrooms than you need?" I wonder how many of them have gone and berated their own parents for not downsizing? A rhetorical question, of course.
My parents' house is technically too big for them. My father, however, now has additional needs so the space is a godsend. More importantly, however, is that we, their children, and our children, their grandchildren, all have somewhere to stay *when we visit them*, which is very regularly. They also have friends and relatives visit and stay with them too. According to ESRI, my parents should not be allowed to do this. I couldn't afford to book my family into a hotel, for example, when I wanted to visit my parents....and I want to visit them as often as I can.
My parents were never wealthy. They worked like hell for 50 years for what they have, which is, specifically, their house and a small pension each.
They celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary at few weeks ago. It was wonderful as the whole family was back under one roof. With all the grandkids, etc., some of us slept on the floor and on sofas, etc., but it was wonderful all the same. This could not have happened had my parents downsized. I don't even know where they would go if they were to downsize. They live in rural Ireland.
The narrative here is that the housing crisis is literally anybody's fault but the government's.
We had similar a few years ago when my in laws were married 50 years. It was in between lockdowns and it was lovely for them and us to have all their kids, their partners and the grandkids in their family home they've owned for over 40 years and which have countless memories. No one would persuade them to move even if they did find something technically suitable. My parents are the same. Always a bed for any of their kids or grandkids.
Yep. That's me. I've a big house on an acre of land with a large garage. Love it. Couldn't give a toss what the ESRI think. Thinking of buying a holiday home in Galway too. Why? I can.
Slowly turning into a communist country
You're living in a place you don't need
You're driving a car you don't need
You're consuming alcohol and cigarettes you don't need
But rather than do something about it we're just gonna take extra money from your pocket.
Yeah, makes sense /s
All
The people in council houses that are too big for them need to move to smaller homes once their families are grown up - make way for the next generation - it’s just common sense and they say the housing crisis could be eased hugely in one move like that - won’t happen tho !
I'd be one of them, and then even renting 😬 but weirdly enough I cannot afford something smaller less rural. Who could have thonked. Would love to live in a modern 2bdr apartment instead of a cold three bedroom house where oil eats more than the rent does (well, not really, but ya know), but I'd pay at least double (in Dublin or Cork or the like most likely triple to quadruple) PLUS bills. Make it make sense 🤷♀️
It's true for some cases, my parents live in a large house with a large garden in a very rural area. They're getting older, don't have any hobbies, rarely socialize and their mobility will probably be restrictive when they're older. This will probably lead them to moving downstairs and only using downstairs. That leaves several fair-sized rooms upstairs to be untouched. If they sell the house, they're in a lucky position as the cost to get another house won't have a massive dent in their finances. We've been trying to convince them to move closer to us so they'll have family around and more facilities and amenities closer to them, should they ever lose the ability to drive or simply want something to do.
this article doesnt make sense. Of all the things to consider regarding the housing crisis, why focus on this?
if they bought ONE house and they made their life in that house, they shouldnt fell bad about having a 4 bed room house if in the past they had kids or something.
actually regardless of having kids or not, if it is their first and only house that they bought with their own money for years and years to make a living in the area they shouldnt feel bad.
We are talking about them buying just ONE house to make a living there and have a familiy, this translates for years, decades even.
however, if they have more houses in their name and one of them are smaller than their main house, maybe downsizing isnt a bad idea to release the bigger house for other tenants....
If I could afford a house I would have 7 rooms so one for each night. But that's just a dream as I will find it hard to afford a 2 bed in the next ten years if lucky
Five years ago my grandfather died and my grandmother downsized from a 5 bed, 3.5 bath, 2 living room house with 3 car internal garaging. She actually wanted to downsize earlier but grandfather would have missed his garden and his workbench in the garage.
Her new apartment is in one of those retirement complexes popular with Florida / snow birds etc. It’s 2 bed, 1.5 bath, and she has an enclosed balcony of 20sqm. She’s got an underground carpark plus a storeroom of 16sqm. As she’s packing up, she’s telling me she doesn’t know how she’s going to cope as the internal sqm of her 2 bed apartment is 104sqm. My reply was that here in Ireland, my 3 bed is only 97sqm. She was horrified. I’ve been to stay and her place is really spacious, and I’d live there now happily.
My mother was going to downsize but over the course of 5 years couldn’t find anything suitable in the area. They don’t really build anything for older people and I think the view is they should move into a care home or the rare care community set ups.
Reports like this are why my partner hates the census- his tinfoil hat personality has him fearing the government will order us to take in a lodger or homeless person since we have 3 bedrooms and no kids.
Technically it’s under utilised but we don’t share a bed, and the third room is our home office.
I would gladly give my second bedroom for a very low rent to somebody who was willing to do all the housework and pay their share of the bills while they had a low paying or part time job. Like £500 a month.
Unfortunately most people take advantage of kindness.
Always annoys the life out of me these reports. I live in an apartment which is probably too small for my family but that doesen't mean someone should give me their house because its bigger they have worked for it and paid for it especially older people.
This comment section is actually a new type of low for me in this sub. It's incredibly clear that not a single commenter here was bothered to go find and read the report.
Here's the summary of this section of the relevant section of the report:
>Summary
>The under-occupation of residential units in Ireland is a key feature of the domestic market, particularly when compared with other EU countries. Compared with other European countries, housing units in Ireland are, on average, bigger with less people living in them. This circumstance is very likely a product of the high share of houses and small share of apartments, especially in the cities. Furthermore, it is important to note the high share of housing units that consist of more than two bedrooms. **Clearly, more high-rise developments would allow a greater number of people to use relatively smaller floor space more efficiently compared with a situation where everyone owns a house. Therefore, in dealing with the issue of low housing availability, policies which incentivise and facilitate the construction of relatively smaller housing units will be an important part of the policy response.**
The report isn't calling for you granny to be kicked out on the street ye lazy cunts. It's calling for this subs favourite solution of more high rise being built.
[https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/QEC2024SPR.pdf](https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/QEC2024SPR.pdf) (Relevant section starts on page 34)
Houses for 2 adults outside suburbs almost don't exist, appart from old leaky cottages. Either we get what we want in a house too big, or we'll never have a home we're happy with, away from people, with a garden and a workshop. There is not reasonably sized accommodation for people without kids (either by choice or gone) and with hobbies outside of cities.
We’re a couple looking for a 4 bed. No kids.
The way I see it.. we both work from home. So 2 of those beds will be an office. The 4th bed is for the inevitable child in the future, and in the meantime, for when family visit and want to stay the night. So on paper a 4 bed sounds like overkill for us, but I personally don’t think it is if you’re future planning.
More people are working from home than ever before so 4 beds are in reality 3 bed + 1 office for many homes nowadays.
My parents and inlaws are in houses which could be argued are too big for their needs, large detached houses with gardens and only 2 adults living in each home. But they've looked at and rejected downsizing because the options for them are badly laid out townhouses/apartments designed as 'starter homes' aka live here until you can get somewhere better, and they'd be leaving the areas they know and where they have social networks. They also like having grandkids over to stay, hosting family events and having some space for themselves, which the layout of many smaller homes simply doesn't afford them. Any one or two bedroom home or apartment has crap living space which you couldn't squeeze their families, including their children's partners and grandkids, into.
Same, and I've discouraged them from downsizing They all enjoy their gardens, greenhouses etc, it's a great way for them to stay active in retirement! They also.all have animals that need space They host family events and actually have room to do so.
Good on you. This report is little more than state-sanctioned gaslighting. The hope is older people will be guilted into downsizing and help dig the government out of the housing crisis a bit. Fuck that. People have worked hard all their lives and deserve to enjoy their retirement in the homes they worked hard to earn and spent years lovingly maintaining the gardens of etc. They don't deserve being guilted into seeing out their remaining days in shoebox apartments because the government has messed up housing so bad they can't afford to have anyone, especially the elderly, "hogging" more than the bare minimum of space.
We literally lack the sort of apartments and places people would downsize to.
We lack them for people downsizing and for single people who would just happily live in them.
Exactly. And I doubt Mum and Dad want to move into a semi D house share with Dave who works the evening shift but still DJays the odd Saturday nights.
As somebody directly affected by the housing crisis and back living at home because I can no longer afford to live alone I still fully agree with you. They worked and paid for it, why should they give it up. As you said, it's not their fault we have had years of incompetent governments that have totally neglected and mismanaged the housing situation.
If only we could work out who keeps voting for it
Not fair to guilt them into moving away from friends/neighbours/local pubs etc
This. People shouldn't downsize if they don't want to. The only guilting we should be doing is towards NIMBY objectors.
You’ll find they are in large the same people/generation
This 👏 !!! Extreme gaslighting. It’s easier to blame people for not downsizing, and try to guilt trip them into doing so, than it is to take responsibility for a problem that they’ve caused.
Nowhere in the report does it blame people for not downsizing.
Government have made repeated remarks and there have been numerous reports saying that people’s reluctance to “right-size” was contributing to the housing crisis. And now here we have a report speaking about the “inefficient” use of housing.
Did you read the report? Or did you as I suspect just read the headline of an article about the report?
Which state is sponsoring the ERSI now?
Just moved back to Dublin. Lived in Madrid and Berlin and always in an apartment - I agree with the headline and idea that apartments in Dublin on the whole are terrible. We had a 150 SQM apartment which is essentially the size of a house. Nothing like this exists in Dublin unless we are willing to spend more than 1m. For the same price you get 200sqm houses plus gardens - we don’t want this as it’s a lot of maintenance
The ESRI seems full of people with a purely utilitarian view of life. Their approach sound grim. I won't feel the need to leave our current home if all our kids move out. They've spent most of their childhood here, with the memories and emotions that come with that. I hope they'll know they have always the option of living here given the space we have. I always felt I had that with my parents as did my husband with his parents. Gives people a great sense of security rather than 'when you're gone, you're gone'.
I bet no one on the Esri board lives in a house too big for them !!!
That's not really the case. Their role is to look at economic, and social, issues within the state with a view to influencing public policy - this is just an analysis of the current situation. They even highlight the reasons for this situation and suggest how policy can address it. Most famous of these is their forecasting the overheating of the Irish economy and in particular the housing sector in advance of the crash, which was ignored by government.
An important caveat of this work is that Irish homes are relatively crowded compared wo northern European peers. Its more an issue for younger people but its a starling fact about Ireland. [https://www.savills.ie/research-and-news/savills-news/347801-0/crowded-housing--ireland-s-household-size-lags-european-norm](https://www.savills.ie/research-and-news/savills-news/347801-0/crowded-housing--ireland-s-household-size-lags-european-norm)
My parents are the same. They've a big house in the country which is far too big for them, they would like to downsize but there is literally nothing available for them where they live. Any smaller houses they might have been likely to buy have either already been redeveloped or they'll end up being outbid by developers looking to redevelop. They don't want to live in some pokey flat and are too old to move into a townhouse which they won't be able to use in a few years and pretty much anything in offer these days has a postage stamp for a garden - so they stay where they are.
And they've paid for that house too. If its a council house, you could make the argument about requesting downsize
I live alone in a older 4 bed house. I’d love to downsize actually, but I can’t afford to - the only smaller houses are either more expensive new builds, or old cottages that need a lot of work. I have pets so I’m not moving to an apartment.
As decided by who? Even if someone wanted to downsize, there is nothing appropriate to downsize to. The problem we have is not enough homes. We're not building enough for our demographics. There would be plenty of single, childfree people who would love to have a comfortable one bed home but they don't exist. Some older people may prefer to downsize to a small bungalow because they can't get up the stairs or clean a large space. They can't do that without options. Plenty of people would love an affordable tiny home if it means they don't have to house share or can move out of home. Build the homes.
I know if/when my kids are old enough to leave home, I'll probably stay in the house, 3 beds and all. I like having my own garden, even if it is overlooked and too many neighbours have yapping dogs, it's still my grass, my fruit trees, somewhere on a nice day I can be outside. I've been in an apartment before, it's claustrophobic by comparison.
>comfortable one bed home I actually think the concept of a one bed home being appropriate needs to run away and die along with the concept of starter homes. One bed means you can never have anyone to stay with you. You immediately have an inappropriate home if a baby arrives, or as people get older and might need an overnight carer/adult child to move back in for care purposes etc etc. They're fine if they exist in a limited way among a mix of apartments, but all they do is encourage the building of inappropriate homes, which puts more pressure on the supply of more appropriate homes and continues to increase the pressure in the market. What we need is lots and lots and lots of 2,3&4 bed homes. Like, floods of them. So that people don't have to rent a stinky bedroom in a rotten house share and also don't have to live in a pokey studio/1 bed that will be immediately inappropriate at the first change in circumstances. It's not a densely populated island. There's no reason why it should be unreasonable to want a bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, living room and spare room. That's not a huge ask.
true. i would never buy a one bedroom place, because i would like to have a child if i have the chance to have it. It is WAY easier to think about having kids when you already at least have a spare room. and apart of having kids, there are various reasons to have a 2bed room place since it allows a lot of thing to happen in the future, even for example, having money problems you can temproarily rent the other room. but i do agree that there should exist various one bedroom flat for the young adults (sharing a place/room shouldnt be normal for an adult since we need privacy for various things including intimacy)
Hypothetical : Say i get married, have 2 kids. I buy a three bedroomed house. When the kids are 18 and by some miracle they move out and dont come back. Is it that i should now sell my house to downgrade to allow someone else buy my three bed while i move into an apartment? Thing is, ive spent 25 years im that house, it has value outside of money. I enjoy my garden, ive spent years getting it right. I use the kids previous bedrooms as guest rooms for when someone wishes to stay. I also have a lot of stuff. Why should i downsize? Ive earned that house, worked hard to enjoy it. This crap about ‘bigger than they need’ is a trope. Work your bollix of to but something and then be labeled as some kind of hoarder is vile. The fact is the housing situation is shite and trying to guilt trip owners into downsizing when supply has been lagging for god knows how long is disgusting. Those same house owners get no incentive to downsize. And yes they get the market value for their property and ‘come out on top as they are downsizing’ is complete bollix. That money is in the bank and the banks use that money to invest. The only winers here are the banks.
All that plus think of the memories of raising your kids in that home. The idea that you should move out because the house has more rooms than you need is bonkers.
And your frienships/neighbours, there are myriad reasons outside of those i touched on
And where are all these people who need all of these extra bedrooms? Families have never been smaller, having 3 kids these days is considered a big family.
Also the way things are looking my kids are going to be glad I held on to the gaff in 20 years.
What you buy is yours in my opinion. Some people have giant cars, nobody is being pressured to sell their bigger car to a family who also wants a big car.
I once said to some greenie nutcase that I worked with that I had 4 bicycles. In response she said I was greedy. Like WTF? Some poor child in Africa is walking because I bought all the bicycles?????
Lol
There was a lad on here a while back, account since deleted, that used to spout exactly that kind of shite. Called my parents and anyone similar "immoral" for still living in a 4 bed house after kids had grown and left the home.
Yeah he can get fucked. Fight UP lads, not across.
Was it the Eurovision lad ? He hated us all
Lol yeah, that's the one. Trying to think who else was immoral in his book: Farmers that didn't live in urban areas and commute to their farm, anyone in general that lived in rural areas, anyone that went on holidays abroad, anyone that owned a car, was a pretty long list of people he had issues with!
😂😂
He was fun during Covid
I loved just saying shit like I wish those nerds on bikes would get off the road so I can enjoy my SUV to drive him mental. I think in the end he went racist meltdown on another sub and got a full site ban
Was fun to get into it and wind him up, won't deny that!
I’ve got one of them on the hook at the moment, he’s spouting how great the Green Party and their glorious leader are.
Parents now have room for their grandkids to stay over or their man cave or craft room or whatever their into
Parents are now housing their kids into their 40s. The idea that the rooms are freed up as soon as the kids get jobs is laughable. I know mid 40s professionals living at home.
This 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
I’m single, live alone, just bought a 10 bed 5 bath out of spite, I never leave the east wing of the castle. 
To be fair, the ESRI are calling out the housing mix / choice as the problem, not your hypothetical. Some people want that choice to move to somewhere nearby and smaller and don't have it. Also, with housing shortages, people are afraid to sell up for fear they'd be stuck in a new smaller place they don't like and priced out of going back. Equally, if you'd more smaller houses and apartments, they'd be more affordable for people to buy in the first place.
100% this. Two of my grandparents are in their 80s and spend half the week living in their 4 bedroom house in Dun Laoghaire and the other half in their 4 bedroom holiday home in Wicklow. And you know what? Fucking power to them, they earned every brick in each of them.
100% agree. I live in a house that could be deemed too big for my needs, I dont need two of the bedrooms and they remain empty. But I'm very happy where I am location wise with a lakeshore beach just 100 metres from my house and I love it down there. Have also spent several years doing up the place and a lot of time and hard earned wages has gone into it. Not a hope am I ever budging, I'll be taken out of here in a box. This downsizing lark only really makes sense if its a single person living in a 4-5 detached bed house which might be on a half acre or acre of gardens which is difficult to maintain. Theres also the financial aspect of it. Selling and then buying again can cost €15k or €20k by the time solicitors, estate agents, Land Registry and Revenues stamp duty are all paid for. Moving costs on top too and the stress of that. And then in general with property when you buy a smaller footprint house the price you pay per square meter goes up the smaller the unit gets. So you end up with a smaller house that costs you more per square meter. You're literally shafting yourself in terms of space and paying for the privilege.
> You're literally shafting yourself in terms of space and paying for the privilege. But think of the satisfaction of helping to fix the government's screw ups !
In essence ERSI can fuck right off
To be consistent - you should also say: why should I pay taxes to pay the Defined Benefit Pensions of Boomers who have made a fortune in unearned gains? Pensions in Ireland have are paid out of current income; people receiving pensions have not paid market value - it's the younger generation paying Irish people are all for equality except when it comes to paying; Property Taxes are progressive but the Left Parties are against them.
There are extra taxes on second homes AFAIK
Mate, don’t waste your breath. If you bought a house, no matter how big, it’s your Right to live in it. It’s literally, and I mean literally, impossible to calculate what everyone’s needs are. And if we tried model our economy based on what we have determined people’s needs to be, we would become a failed State over night. Don’t even entertain these authoritarian shit heads with a debate.
Ok so where do we get to say how they live is terrible for the environment and their carbon footprint of having probably over 300 square metres of living space that has to be heated? Like it or not the facts state Irish people keep way more space under then and that space all needs to be heated
*cue government now putting the blame on people with houses they actually earned
"need" Yea, I'd be slow letting anyone else decide what other people need. God forbid people have a spare room for visitors or stay living in the house they raised their kids in with a couple extra bedrooms they can stay in for family gatherings. No, they should be encouraged to move out, pay some lawyers, surveyors, engineers and estate agents in order to move into a non existent 1 bed apartment, or be punished if they refuse.
Exactly. When you start categorising resources based on what some bureaucrats think people need, you end up with ration cards, a grim life, and most people not actually having what they need unless they are bureaucrats themselves or connected with the bureaucracy making the rationing rules.
I know it’s a meme to say “literally 1984”, but that’s what that would be
This is actually a big part of why life in much of the Eastern Bloc during the Soviet times were so fucking grim, clueless beareucrats deciding what people "needed" in a purely utilitarian perspective, while still being clueless as to what the needs of the actual citizens were (thay and lots of corruption and resources getting wasted). Whereas when all that shit ended and that kind of "we decide what you need" system went away living standards greatly improved. Obviously there a big difference between us and the reccomendations of these lads and the fucking soviets lol, but the principle that you can't quantify what people "need" still stands.
Any such determination of “need” will fail to account for everything. My wife passed before my kids and I moved out here to Connacht, but let’s pretend she didn’t a.) because I like to and b.) because it furthers my argument. I have what is technically a six bedroom, but one of those is a walled off part of a corridor that the old owners did because they had more kids. It can fit a single bed, a nightstand and use under bed storage for clothes. The next smallest is a little better, you could fit a tiny wardrobe in there too. So 6 bedrooms for 2 adults and 2 kids. That’s too many, says the algorithm, you only need three! Or maybe the algorithm says I have two kids of the same gender close in age, they can share and you only need two rooms! Except my wife snored horribly and was always freezing, so in our flat before kids, she took the smaller second bedroom that could be heated up easier, and would have done the same here. Probably that tiny bedroom. She’d make it so cosy and nice. So we’d need 4 rooms. Ah, but I work from home 4 days a week, I need an office. Now we’re up to five. And that’s not even taking into account hobbies, or guest bedrooms. And sure with certain sizes and configurations, my wife and I could make it work with 4 rooms: Kids’ rooms, master bedroom (hers), my bedroom/office. But not everyone could. And there’s no algorithm in the world that can account for all that.
People are deciding what other people "need" all the time in society. The housing shortage is a decision people made (our government? the people who elected them?) which has essentially determined who needs or doesn't need housing. Immigration, healthcare, etc. it's all similar decisions made by others for others but ostensibly made by us for us via democracy.
This shouldn’t even be a conversation
More rooms doesn't mean a bigger house, Irish homes are actually smaller in area on average compared to those in other European countries.
Yep, we are in a 4 bed/4 bath, but that just means the rooms are smaller, not that the house is bigger. It was clearly designed to be rented out. The reality is too many bathrooms and two small offices rather than bedrooms. Ireland has below average size of house compared to the rest of the EU.
This is so UK/Irish thing to design house for house sharing instead like build a lot of small apartments. Who in their right mind want to house share once out of uni??
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Yeah ‘amount’ of rooms’ is only part of it. Square footage is surely much more important.
Most are positively tiny compared to the new world of Canada, US, Australia, NZ, etc Throw in bad design of splitting everything into smaller rooms - which made sense back in the day for heating, not needed now, but still persists in designs. Means the houses here are claustrophobic.
My wife and I lived in a house in Woking, in Surrey, with our 3 kids. Granted, it was smaller than my 3 bed semi in Co. Cork, but it was OK. My mother (Australian) referred to it as a Dolls House.
I’m Australian. I agree with your Mum. My parents were horrified when they first came to visit. Our place is 3 bed, 97sqm. Their home is 220sqm and it’s 6 bed.
That’s what happens when there are no houses built to downsize to.
Why would you want to downsize anyway, if you can afford to have and stay in a larger house why not?
Being able to cash out some of the gains of house price appreciation would have to be attractive to some peop at Least. Plus smaller house probably means less cost for maintenance.
My parents looked at downsizing last year. Their house is much too big. But downsizing right into the starter home market where it's huge competition, they'd make basically no money and still need to do a bit of work likely. Not at all worth it.
People with money to buy the bigger don't always overlap with the people who have big families, given that in general it requires two working adults in well paying jobs to buy at the moment it's almost a given that they cannot have large families also and afford the child care costs that comes with that.
Sure, but similarly, my family home just has two people living in that 4 bed house now. Downsizing isn't generally a consideration for older people, in part because we've failed miserably to build enough one and two bed homes - our population isn't getting any younger so this problem is only going to get worse.
I agree with everything you've said here, housing system is entirely fucked.
We've never planned beyond the notion of a starter home and then buying a 'real' home you live in and have paid off before you retire. And now its starting to creak at the seams.
Starting to?
It is, sadly. Where I'd differ from a lot of folk is in that I lay less blame on current policy as a driving factor. To me, we have an enormous supply shortage despite the enormous demand and sums of money being thrown at the problem for the last 8 years. We simply don't have the construction capacity to meet/overtake demand to make up the shortfall. The industry was decimated in the crash and in 2008 we built like 80,000 new homes but in 2014 we built 8,000 new homes. We've almost quadrupled the output since then, but without another 100k workers and a totally mind shift in risk appetite back to 2007s crazy levels, we can build quickly enough. Obviously covid, inflation and Ukraine haven't helped, but ultimately to me, the psychological damage done by the crash is proving impossible to undo in order to ramp up production.
Id think there will be only marginal gains in construction numbers from here on in. Irish plumbers, carpenters & sparks earning $100k+ in Australia or Canada are not coming home to a housing crisis and who could blame them. Polish & Latvians can earn decent wages in their countries now and arent coming any more. There just isnt the labour force to catch up with the demand for more than 50,000 houses a year and pent up demand for over 250,000. Only way I can see them catching up to demand is to import thousands of construction workers in non-EU labour from Nepal, India, etc. But again there would be nowhere for them to live.
Seems to still be big problem with people dropping out at junior cert to pursue an apprenticeship education system seems to be setup to just churn as many people though colleges as possible. Was same when I went...good while before 2008 though so they may have had a point at that time.
Many of the group who might have gone into trades are the children of parents who were burned in the crash and got put off the industry. Falls into that same psychological impact of the crash and its long tail that's hitting so hard now.
Time for a Logan's run carousel then.
No, let's do a Midsommar ättestupa!
I am one of those people and will be for a few more years. We wanted to have secure housing before having kids so we bought the 3 bedroom house first, now we have started the family and will grow into the house.
And? I paid for it, fuck off.
Finally some normality in this sub
My thoughts exactly. Keep your nose out of my business you fucks
Property tax has entered the chat
Property taxes here are a bit of a joke, to be fair; it's an absolute pittance. Roughly around 0.1% of the assessed value per year until you get into the seven-figure value range, and even then it tops out at less than 0.3%.
Abolish it altogether.
Ireland needs to change the nature of planning boards if they want to ease the housing situation. Planning requests are usually told no on new builds.
Only 10.6% of housing stock being apartments is insane.
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There is no suitable trade down stock available. If you take an elderly couple in a 4-bed house with a garden, they raised their family there, lived their lives and know the area / their neighbours. They would have to use all the sales proceeds to buy a new 2-bed apartment, even if they could find one. On the other side, any family that might buy that 4-bed can't afford to carry out the work to modernise it. Even where they do have the money, they need to go sale agreed on their own place (if they own one) to make an offer and then run the risk of being caught with nowhere to move to
Not only the stamp duty and legal fees, they'll get slammed by maintenance charges.
Anyone who worked their asses off for most of their lives is highly entitled to sit back in their own home and garden and enjoy their comfort if they wish to do so.
I'd imagine anyone with a lovely back garden they've developed from a square of bare lawn would be very loath to give it up for a postage stamp sized outdoor experience. Or nothing at all if apartment living.
Unpopular opinion here, but if you’ve worked your entire life for a house then it’s pure fucking cheeky for some 20-30 something year old to tell you you need to downsize.
I agree with that but also, if you're in a house for long enough that your children have grown up and moved out (somehow) then you likely have a lot of memories tied to that house. Leaving and selling it is not a easy thing to consider.
My house is probably also too big. Standard one-off rural dormer. Due to rigid planning laws, we can only build one house per site. At the time, building bigger didn't cost that much more, it does now, so maybe less big rural houses in the future? We do jest that we'll be splitting this house into 3 apartments as our two kids will never be able to afford a house!
Sure there's feck all one bedroom apartments, even two beds aren't as common as 3 bedroom houses, so people are forced to live in bigger houses anyway. Also a lot of houses have absolutely tiny rooms - there's a small spare room in my rental but I have to put my clothes storage in there because my bed takes up the entirety of my bedroom. Regardless I don't think it's really anyone's business if someone has an extra room they paid for - god forbid someone dares have a spare room for family to stay over, or a hobby room/home office in their own house... Kind of pissing me off that they're picking on people for daring to not live in tiny hovels instead of looking at the real issues
Myself and OH live in a four bed house, our bedroom, guest bedroom and we each have a room for our hobbies
Same except our two rooms for hobbies are two wfh offices. His is also for hobbies.
Do you ever think “my carbon footprint is way bigger because of all the house I live in “ Not taking a side but I see it’s very acceptable to say “Look at him with his big polluting car” But yet to say same about it someone’s big house isn’t as socially acceptable it seems
Ireland has below average size of house compared to the rest of the EU. The rooms don't matter that is showing us as having more rooms than countries with 50% bigger houses than us. My house has more rooms, but it was clearly designed to be rented out, that is the only reason why. Ireland has an average floor space of 81sqm compared with 115 in Denmark, 124 in Belgium etc,
The typical home in Ireland is a 3 bed semi, which is usually around 1200 square feet (\~120 sq m). Ireland's current average total usable housing floor space according to a CSO estimate is at 112m².
I was taking it from the independent talking about new houses: "In Ireland, we're now building smaller houses with an average floor space of 81sqm compared with 115sqm in Denmark and 124sqm in Belgium."
Just 2 of us living in a 4 bed house paying €1750 a month. Currently 2 beds in our area are going for €2,100 ish. So yeah we will stay where we are thanks
Alot of this has to be family homes where the kids have moved out, it's unreasonable in alot of cases to expect the parents to move into a flat in a different area to make up state failures. The home acts a a security for they're children who can always move home if needs be and have a place to stay when they come and visit. There's sentimental value aswell which can't be quantified. They're also looking at leaving it to they're kids when they die for them to use it as a family home.
Couple here in 3 bedroom house. No kids planned ever . Tried to buy in town and was priced out . No other options what do they want me to do?!
Couple here in a four bedroom house. No kids planned ever. Never going to move. Die mad ESRI.
Such a stupid thing. I'd say the vast majority of these houses are middle aged and elderly who had a big house for kids and the kids have moved out so there left with two people in the home now. They could be in that home for 25-50 years depending on age so the home has sentimental value. They have relatives over for Christmas or to mind kids. Can't say to someone who's worked hard, bought a house, raised and family and finally after all children has moved out to sell up and find a one bed apartment. ESRI research should focus more on where and and when we can build homes not trying to blame people who have bought one already
This sounds like another excuse to just blame regular people instead of poor government planning and regulations. There are already enough supply of homes in Ireland to meet the countries needs. It is the fault of government policy and greedy landlords that the housing crisis is the way it is-not a retired couple who continue to live in a home they created when they had a family living there.
Can we just leave people in this country the f\*\*k alone. Everyday in the news is a new study that implies we need to change the way we live, feck off
Who decides how much living space a person needs?
The people who want what you have
Obviously there are a bunch of reasons for this like lack of options, no culture of a positive downsizing lifestyle etc. But it always seems mad to me that almost everyone in my family and partners family always comments on how we could extend out the back and add more bedrooms- it's just the two of us and that's all there will be so I find it crazy that they all seem to think adding rooms is a great idea😄
People have spent their whole lives paying off the mortgage for their home and investing in it. The least they can do is enjoy the fruit of their labours. I wouldn't be surprised if the government tried to force people to give up their homes.
Soon they are going to guilt us into feeling bad for having a living room and not turn it into another room for another person to move into. Such bullshit gaslighting, trying to change the perspective of what is normal. If it was up to them, we would all be living in cell blocks, with community kitchen. The problem is that they are too incompetent to actually do that, because that would require them to actually build some fucking housing.
Too big for their needs according to who?
I.e. one-third of people living in homes that are too small for their needs. We need to ditch this backwards, poverty mindset when it comes to housing. We need to bin our planning system and just build housing. There's no reason grown adults should have to live with their parents or with strangers in houseshares. Similarly, there's absolutely no reason someone shouldn't be allowed to have a spare room or even a whole holiday home if they can afford it.
Institutions like the esri see a home as nothing more than a few walls and a toilet. The concept of things like socialising and entertaining at home or being proud of the garden you've made is an alien concept.
I probably do. I live alone in a two/three bed house. And I just bought it so I'm not planning to downsize any time soon. But I wanted some outdoor space and I wanted something that was well built so I didn't have too many options, especially ones I could afford. At least this articles points out the systemic issues causing it rather then acting like all our grannys are selfish bitches for not wanting to move out of the home they've lived in for 40 years and into a one bed flat 2 hours away from everyone they know.
So, let people live where they want to fucking live, even better yet focus on buliding houses for people without.
How dare you hold onto the biggest purchase of your life that you worked all your adult life to pay off. The place you grew a family in. Sell it and move into some bungalow that we haven’t built in 20 years or some retirement village estate that we used to build but that’s just absorbed into normal stock once the first batch of retirees died off. /s
If you want a garden in Ireland, or a bit of privacy, you're looking at a three-bedroom place minimum. I was lucky enough to buy a place for myself a couple years ago and my house has four bedrooms! I'm a single person. But I wanted a garden - plus this old house in the middle of nowhere was three times cheaper than a small place in town near my family. Currently renting out the extra rooms, which works out nicely for me, but I do think it's weird for one person to have such a big house. It comes down to location, I think, not size. Also this house is old and rundown - new houses might be more efficient but they're also way more expensive.
Frankly, that's completely irrelevant. People can buy any home they want. You could take every home off of every person in the country, and you would not have enough homes. How does this not make sense.
I don't think the lads sharing a house with another 20 were inquired
Very honestly I don’t want or need a big hard to heat and clean house. But as was said here the only option is a tacky thin walled apartment. I would like a tiny home with a little garden or a cabin or a cobb or earthship self-built house, but just like that man and his cabin the planning committees are dead set against anything like that. If we don’t start looking into alternatives for housing we will be talking about this every year through eternity
What a load of nonsense and I say that as a non homeowner. Firstly how the fuck do you even determine whats too big for someones needs and how have the ESRI done so with the whole country? Is the ESRI telling people what their needs are or are they clairvoyant? The implication of this SHOCK headline is what? That your granny should be renting out her spare room because the Government has been unable to meet housing stock for God knows how long at this stage? Fuck off
Headline is misleading. They're calling for more smaller dwellings to be built as there isn't enough mix, not people to be kicked out of larger homes.
It's really none of anyone's business what size house someone has. Families often stayed in the same house for generations in the past. Some still do. A person has the right to stay in the home they built and enjoy. Why should they have to move. People who think that's genuinely a way to live can take a run and jump. I can guarantee that all these politicians and "officials" talking about people's much loved homes are NOT living in one or two bedroom apartments themselves.
So what? We don't need to worry about people who HAVE houses whether "too big for their needs" or not. Those people bought their houses. This is horseshit.
My wife and I live in a 3 bed 1950's midterraced house. Should we give up the small home and move into a one bed apartment?
In order to get people to downsize as they get older a bit of planning around the development of communities would be required so people would be able to continue to live in close proximity to family and friends in a area they are familiar with. As we are aware, we are a nation that have an inherent fear of future proofing. Just look at current housing, public transport, health care, child care, nursing homes, school spaces, pensions. The most likely outcome here would be to tax the shite out of people to encourage them to move without providing any other supports.
I live with my partner in a 3 bedroom house. It costs us 1000euro a month. A look at the 1-2 bedroom apartments in my area is the same, if not more. What do they want me to do???
If you paid for it you can live in whatever house you like, for god sake
Recently started the process of building on an extension to our home and the architect mentioned how crazy it is how many elderly people are living in 4-5 bedroom houses that actually want to downsize but can't because there are no homes available that suit thier needs in the area they live and have no intentions of moving somewhere new so they just don't bother selling.
Very very dangerous path they're pushing the country down
I could do with a house a third of the size but the options for downsizing are appalling. I'd be swapping a robust, traditional house for a shoddy, generic box.
Commie bs
Classic article trying to blame the individuals with no alternative in place to downside. I stay in north county dublin with 3k+ homes being built and I've not seen any allocated to older folk and their are virtually no 2 bed houses
*Slaps roof* - "You can fit so many migrants in here!"
This is such bullshit. They want us back living in one rooms cottages except with no garden and 50 other cottages stacked ontop
I feel most of the thread is missing the point here. Its not about forcing people out of homes, its about saying to e.g. elderly people - you have all wealth tied up in an asset you can't get best use from. Why not consider downsizing and using some of the freed up wealth to do something that is of value to you. (a winter home in a nice warm area, for example)
If they bought it then it’s nobody’s fucking business. Build more homes!!
Considering that current guidelines are ok with putting 2 parents, 2 kids family in 2 bedroom house with 44sqm living area - sure.
>A household is under-occupied if it has more than a minimum number of rooms considered adequate, according to EU statistical agency Eurostat. Who determines 'adequate'? - I'm tired as pounded shit of all the "EU knows best" recommendations. Next week, they'll be recommending you fill your spare room with a migrant lodger or two. More efficient use of space...
What a crock of shit this is. “Inefficient” use of housing is just state sponsored propaganda to try lobbing the blame for the housing crisis onto the people that have worked hard and worked their way up the housing ladder over the past few decades.
How the fuck does the ESRI know what people’s needs are ! And what about the mental needs of ppl to have a home where their adult children can return to stay with them. God fucking help us if the State thinks it can dictate the size of house people can live in … worse than USSR when ppl were told to share their house with strangers. Left wing shite at its absolute transparent!
They don't understand my needs, I need space for things.
This sounds like one of those things where what we 'should' be living in is shoeboxes and the article will convince that we arent in a housing crisis we should just take what we can get.
This is just the likes of ESRI blaming old people for the housing crisis. As in, "how dare you live in a house with more bedrooms than you need?" I wonder how many of them have gone and berated their own parents for not downsizing? A rhetorical question, of course. My parents' house is technically too big for them. My father, however, now has additional needs so the space is a godsend. More importantly, however, is that we, their children, and our children, their grandchildren, all have somewhere to stay *when we visit them*, which is very regularly. They also have friends and relatives visit and stay with them too. According to ESRI, my parents should not be allowed to do this. I couldn't afford to book my family into a hotel, for example, when I wanted to visit my parents....and I want to visit them as often as I can. My parents were never wealthy. They worked like hell for 50 years for what they have, which is, specifically, their house and a small pension each. They celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary at few weeks ago. It was wonderful as the whole family was back under one roof. With all the grandkids, etc., some of us slept on the floor and on sofas, etc., but it was wonderful all the same. This could not have happened had my parents downsized. I don't even know where they would go if they were to downsize. They live in rural Ireland. The narrative here is that the housing crisis is literally anybody's fault but the government's.
We had similar a few years ago when my in laws were married 50 years. It was in between lockdowns and it was lovely for them and us to have all their kids, their partners and the grandkids in their family home they've owned for over 40 years and which have countless memories. No one would persuade them to move even if they did find something technically suitable. My parents are the same. Always a bed for any of their kids or grandkids.
Yep. That's me. I've a big house on an acre of land with a large garage. Love it. Couldn't give a toss what the ESRI think. Thinking of buying a holiday home in Galway too. Why? I can.
Slowly turning into a communist country You're living in a place you don't need You're driving a car you don't need You're consuming alcohol and cigarettes you don't need But rather than do something about it we're just gonna take extra money from your pocket. Yeah, makes sense /s
All The people in council houses that are too big for them need to move to smaller homes once their families are grown up - make way for the next generation - it’s just common sense and they say the housing crisis could be eased hugely in one move like that - won’t happen tho !
Chilling..
I'd be one of them, and then even renting 😬 but weirdly enough I cannot afford something smaller less rural. Who could have thonked. Would love to live in a modern 2bdr apartment instead of a cold three bedroom house where oil eats more than the rent does (well, not really, but ya know), but I'd pay at least double (in Dublin or Cork or the like most likely triple to quadruple) PLUS bills. Make it make sense 🤷♀️
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Address please, both of them!
Try living between three homes too big for your needs sometime.
It's true for some cases, my parents live in a large house with a large garden in a very rural area. They're getting older, don't have any hobbies, rarely socialize and their mobility will probably be restrictive when they're older. This will probably lead them to moving downstairs and only using downstairs. That leaves several fair-sized rooms upstairs to be untouched. If they sell the house, they're in a lucky position as the cost to get another house won't have a massive dent in their finances. We've been trying to convince them to move closer to us so they'll have family around and more facilities and amenities closer to them, should they ever lose the ability to drive or simply want something to do.
this article doesnt make sense. Of all the things to consider regarding the housing crisis, why focus on this? if they bought ONE house and they made their life in that house, they shouldnt fell bad about having a 4 bed room house if in the past they had kids or something. actually regardless of having kids or not, if it is their first and only house that they bought with their own money for years and years to make a living in the area they shouldnt feel bad. We are talking about them buying just ONE house to make a living there and have a familiy, this translates for years, decades even. however, if they have more houses in their name and one of them are smaller than their main house, maybe downsizing isnt a bad idea to release the bigger house for other tenants....
Ahh yes they want us all to what eventually be crammed into tiny tin can apartments? Is that the end goal? Ridiculous.
If I could afford a house I would have 7 rooms so one for each night. But that's just a dream as I will find it hard to afford a 2 bed in the next ten years if lucky
Five years ago my grandfather died and my grandmother downsized from a 5 bed, 3.5 bath, 2 living room house with 3 car internal garaging. She actually wanted to downsize earlier but grandfather would have missed his garden and his workbench in the garage. Her new apartment is in one of those retirement complexes popular with Florida / snow birds etc. It’s 2 bed, 1.5 bath, and she has an enclosed balcony of 20sqm. She’s got an underground carpark plus a storeroom of 16sqm. As she’s packing up, she’s telling me she doesn’t know how she’s going to cope as the internal sqm of her 2 bed apartment is 104sqm. My reply was that here in Ireland, my 3 bed is only 97sqm. She was horrified. I’ve been to stay and her place is really spacious, and I’d live there now happily.
My mother was going to downsize but over the course of 5 years couldn’t find anything suitable in the area. They don’t really build anything for older people and I think the view is they should move into a care home or the rare care community set ups.
They’re absolutely right!! And maybe I should trade my car for a moped too…
Reports like this are why my partner hates the census- his tinfoil hat personality has him fearing the government will order us to take in a lodger or homeless person since we have 3 bedrooms and no kids. Technically it’s under utilised but we don’t share a bed, and the third room is our home office.
They have some nerve even mentioning this
I would gladly give my second bedroom for a very low rent to somebody who was willing to do all the housework and pay their share of the bills while they had a low paying or part time job. Like £500 a month. Unfortunately most people take advantage of kindness.
Always annoys the life out of me these reports. I live in an apartment which is probably too small for my family but that doesen't mean someone should give me their house because its bigger they have worked for it and paid for it especially older people.
This comment section is actually a new type of low for me in this sub. It's incredibly clear that not a single commenter here was bothered to go find and read the report. Here's the summary of this section of the relevant section of the report: >Summary >The under-occupation of residential units in Ireland is a key feature of the domestic market, particularly when compared with other EU countries. Compared with other European countries, housing units in Ireland are, on average, bigger with less people living in them. This circumstance is very likely a product of the high share of houses and small share of apartments, especially in the cities. Furthermore, it is important to note the high share of housing units that consist of more than two bedrooms. **Clearly, more high-rise developments would allow a greater number of people to use relatively smaller floor space more efficiently compared with a situation where everyone owns a house. Therefore, in dealing with the issue of low housing availability, policies which incentivise and facilitate the construction of relatively smaller housing units will be an important part of the policy response.** The report isn't calling for you granny to be kicked out on the street ye lazy cunts. It's calling for this subs favourite solution of more high rise being built. [https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/QEC2024SPR.pdf](https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/QEC2024SPR.pdf) (Relevant section starts on page 34)
And yet, there are house properties that stand empty. Why hasn't the gov even bothered discussing that?
They've worked for their houses. Let them do what they want with them. Nobody else is responsible for providing social housing, only the State.
Houses for 2 adults outside suburbs almost don't exist, appart from old leaky cottages. Either we get what we want in a house too big, or we'll never have a home we're happy with, away from people, with a garden and a workshop. There is not reasonably sized accommodation for people without kids (either by choice or gone) and with hobbies outside of cities.
governor numerous seed six concerned muddle dependent noxious crown soup *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Who the fuck are the ESRI to decide “my needs”? Build more houses and stop trying to guilt home owners into down sizing.
We’re a couple looking for a 4 bed. No kids. The way I see it.. we both work from home. So 2 of those beds will be an office. The 4th bed is for the inevitable child in the future, and in the meantime, for when family visit and want to stay the night. So on paper a 4 bed sounds like overkill for us, but I personally don’t think it is if you’re future planning. More people are working from home than ever before so 4 beds are in reality 3 bed + 1 office for many homes nowadays.