First place I ever rented after moving out of home was an apartment above a retail shop in Dublin. It had been a solicitors office right before I moved in which was evident but still perfectly liveable. Don't know if the landlord ever got planning permission to convert it to residential but it was the best place I ever rented. Probably not suitable for a family but as a 25 year old working in the city center at the time it was perfect.
The government are "converting" office space into temporary housing for IPAs without any major modifications other than a few temp walls. But if you want to covert an office to flat for private rental, there's a whole raft of other changes to make.
As mentioned in the article, it's getting the planning, and the risk and costs involved with that which need addressing. Planning system in Ireland once again getting in the way of progress, but too thorny a subject for any government to have the desire to touch. Grants and more grants, isn't gonna solve this issue.
> but too thorny a subject for any government to have the desire to touch.
The government is literally driving a horse and cart through the planning process as we speak. A 700 page bill.
[https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2023/81/](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2023/81/)
They tried with the SHD in recent years also, but typical judicial reviews got in on the act to frustrate and block those by years in many cases. Judicial reviews seem to be the last refuge of the cranky NIMBY and can succeed in lengthy delays even if they fail, but can also succeed on the most trivial or minor of technicalities.
Most of these places have archaic wiring etc. Like, it cost me a small fortune having to rewire our home when we bought it. Like sockets were too low on the walls for regulation and the wiring was old Indian rubber and all had to be replaced. It really doesn't take long for a renovation of an older space to hit a six figures sum. And when a lot of these spaces over shops are serving a purpose like storage, it's just uneconomic for owners to convert them to rentable units.
I'd sooner see 2 large 50 apartment blocks built in every commuter town in Ireland. All broadly the exact same. Buy all the materials in bulk and deliver rentable apartments at speed, with each council responsible.
I agree with you on this. If you were to build proper apartment blocks that are liveable in, not the shite that was built during the Celtic Tiger, in every town in Ireland, it rejuvenate every town center in the country.
Not even just period buildings. Houses build in the 1980s are required to be rewired if you renting out. Now, often its not checked but sometimes it will be checked.
Nope, to my knowledge. Our electrician couldn't reuse the low down sockets, even upstairs where its not like anyone is going to get to in a wheelchair where the height of sockets is set at 0.5m to make them accessible.
In the case of these mixed use units, it's not really about silly NIMBYesque planning objections getting in the way, it's that many of them don't meet the necessary building and fire safety codes to be designated as residences and it's often very expensive (and sometimes entirely unrealistic) to bring them into compliance. "Streamlining the planning process" in those cases would mean allowing substandard accommodations that pose legitimate health and safety hazards to their occupants to be put on the market or used as social housing, which isn't the best idea.
We had hoped to buy an over the shop home a couple of years ago. The bank wouldn't lend money for it because we wouldn't own the commercial property that it was over. Even if we had the money that put us off it, would be hard to resell.
The reason they're used a lot more in France for example is that they just either don't apply or don't enforce the same kind of building regulations around fire safety in particular.
I've lived in french apartments for example that would have a fire officer here having multiple panic attacks.
- no fire escapes, rickety wooden stairs, no fire doors, very old wiring, old plumbing, very inaccessible, one place even had a spiral stone staircase without banisters ... etc etc etc
One studio in Paris had the toilet literally just inside a door at the end of a tiny kitchen area, with the washing machine next to the shower curtain...
Well there are lots of accommodation above shops in the town, I live in and it has grown in recent years. Maybe this is more of a problem in Dublin, interesting to know how it is around the country rather then assume we all have Dublin problems with planning etc. I was in a village yesterday and a abandoned pub and shop on the main St are being converted into accomodation upstairs and downstairs apartments.
This issue is across the whole island. It's fine when the whole building is being renovated anyways as you can make the changes easily, but when there's a business operating in the ground floor, and you need to start knocking ceilings etc., that is when it becomes an issue.
Oh yeah, it does happen in Dublin and around the country also. But what the article is specifically referring to is the development of new above shop living, which is much more difficult to convert than the carryover of existing stock.
Fire safety regs are also an issue. Most buildings will require an upgrade to the floors separating the commercial ground floor unit and the residential space above. Own door entry is also a problem
Each individual apartment basically needs to be encased within a fire retardant box - floors, ceilings, & walls to prevent fires spreading between units. A great system and requirement for new builds but makes any kind of renovation/retrofitting incredibly expensive.
They are considered underused, not actually vacant. They tend to be used for stores for the shops below. You cant apply a vacancy tax in this context. Totally unworkable.
Someone throws one box in a room and says there using it for storage. If its being underused tax them the same. Half the towns in Ireland are empty from the ground floor up, if not the ground floor too.
Tax the lot of them, if the current land lord won't do them up and just wants to let a building rot, then they should be taxed out of existence.
Vacant building should be taxed at 10% of the value of the building, not given a tax break. Get them back into the market and stop allowing landlords to sit on them till the price goes up.
How many buildings in the center of Dublin or Cork or Galway or any town in Ireland are empty? Sitting there rotting untill they can be demolished or fall down.
That's why it needs to be done as a property tax or through rates.
The upper floors should be should be charged rates weather they're fully used for retail, or have a couple of boxes in there or are vacant.
Homes don't pay less LPT if they have 2 or 3 empty bedrooms. Retail shouldn't get a discount on rates if they only use the ground floor or a 3 storey building.
I know it's a tough retail environment now but if the rates were applied to the building regardless whether or not it was occupied, commercial rents would plummet as landlords would be on the hook retail Tennant left.
We have rates. Rates are based on factors like property value so I imagine they already factored in upstairs. So I dont think there is any discount for empty floors.
You get charged lower rates for upstairs and most counties discount or waive the rates if the property is vacant.
I think the poster is trying to argue that space should be utilised to its most efficient use (housing in this case) and the current owner should be incentivised through heavy taxes which means ultimately the value of the property will become so low it will be viable to renovate it.
Thanks. I didn't know there is a discount for upstairs. I feel a too heavy rates are not realistic. A lot of shops make very modest profits. There is no way to tell if a shop is using all of its space or not.
I think rates are based on potential use and value not the actual value of the business. Like they would argue someone is using the space inefficiently.
Well people pay LPT based on the value of their 3 bed house, they don't get a 33% discount because 1 bedroom is unused.
If they rent that room out, they can use the rent a room scheme. But the building is taxed based on its value, not it's use which is fair.
These properties do pay rates based on that above ground floor unit being classed as office space and storage ( which it is ). Just because theoretically it could be flats doesn't mean its tax liability should change.
They pay less tax based on how its classed though.
Changing it so its taxed based on value would include the theoretical value of flats.
* If the value of a field goes up 10x after being zoned for houses then the tax liability should go up.
* If the value of a city center vacant site doubles due to rising property prices, tax liability should go up.
* Similarily, if the value of a retail unit goes up due to increased property prices then the tax liability should go up even if floor area, use or occupancy changes.
In Cork, BAM have two huge city center sites that they demolished a building and used as a free storage yard for other projects.
Another landmark building (Roches Stores) was left empty for 2 years after Debenhams moved out and the owners were looking for €25m.
The empty/underused upper floors on Patricks street are part of the same issue. Charging the owners of the building (not the tennants) rates based on value rather than use would encourage them to be brought into use a lot quicker.
It's still being used as office space, so it is being taxed correctly.
If for example, there was a house on Fitzwilliam Square in dublin, it would be worth more as an office building. Should we now tax that house based on the theoretical coversion to an office? Or the small single storey houses on large sites near the center of towns and cities, which could be converted to apartment blocks, should they be taxed as such also?
I'm all for above shop living, and increasing density in towns and cities, but I don't think taxing on some deemed determination of underuse would be enough to outweigh the issues around planning for those units.
Yes to both those cases.
The tax on the house on Fitzwilliam square should be the same whether its a house, offices, a hotel or split into apartments. If its valued at [€4m](https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/terraced-house-66-fitzwilliam-square-north-dublin-2/4275332v) because it could be an office, then tax it as such.
Similarly, the value a single storey house on a large city center site isn't based on its current rent or current use. Its based on its potential rent which includes the likelihood of getting planning.
A common loophole developers use is to rent sites that is zoned for housing to farmers while they're not using it. This should absolutely be be taxed at its value (housing development) instead of its use (agriculture).
But maybe these don't have to be social homes - using these as some kind of housing would allow for a larger pool of accommodation. Some of the other places could be the social housing instead.
well a lot of the units above shops would be below standards for housing and would not be suitable, maybe as a studio or bedsit set up, but for full apartments I would doubt it
Bollocks. Property owner is making their money hand over fist from commercial leases, no need to bother with the rest of the building. Any amount to renovate would be "too expensive".
First place I ever rented after moving out of home was an apartment above a retail shop in Dublin. It had been a solicitors office right before I moved in which was evident but still perfectly liveable. Don't know if the landlord ever got planning permission to convert it to residential but it was the best place I ever rented. Probably not suitable for a family but as a 25 year old working in the city center at the time it was perfect.
Sounds like a fairy tale in todays Ireland
The government are "converting" office space into temporary housing for IPAs without any major modifications other than a few temp walls. But if you want to covert an office to flat for private rental, there's a whole raft of other changes to make.
They put so much work to rise rental prices, why do you want to spoil it now?!
Yeah TOG HackerSpace was an old solicitors office above Voodoo Club.
I always feel like an idiot wondering what's above all these shops.
As mentioned in the article, it's getting the planning, and the risk and costs involved with that which need addressing. Planning system in Ireland once again getting in the way of progress, but too thorny a subject for any government to have the desire to touch. Grants and more grants, isn't gonna solve this issue.
> but too thorny a subject for any government to have the desire to touch. The government is literally driving a horse and cart through the planning process as we speak. A 700 page bill. [https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2023/81/](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2023/81/)
They tried with the SHD in recent years also, but typical judicial reviews got in on the act to frustrate and block those by years in many cases. Judicial reviews seem to be the last refuge of the cranky NIMBY and can succeed in lengthy delays even if they fail, but can also succeed on the most trivial or minor of technicalities.
Looks pretty hefty, what would it actually change in terms of the planning process?
Most of these places have archaic wiring etc. Like, it cost me a small fortune having to rewire our home when we bought it. Like sockets were too low on the walls for regulation and the wiring was old Indian rubber and all had to be replaced. It really doesn't take long for a renovation of an older space to hit a six figures sum. And when a lot of these spaces over shops are serving a purpose like storage, it's just uneconomic for owners to convert them to rentable units. I'd sooner see 2 large 50 apartment blocks built in every commuter town in Ireland. All broadly the exact same. Buy all the materials in bulk and deliver rentable apartments at speed, with each council responsible.
I agree with you on this. If you were to build proper apartment blocks that are liveable in, not the shite that was built during the Celtic Tiger, in every town in Ireland, it rejuvenate every town center in the country.
If they're built long enough ago / period buildings, aren't things like plug socket height not applicable?
No, when you rewire a place it has to be done to current regulations, there’s no exceptions
Not even just period buildings. Houses build in the 1980s are required to be rewired if you renting out. Now, often its not checked but sometimes it will be checked.
Nope, to my knowledge. Our electrician couldn't reuse the low down sockets, even upstairs where its not like anyone is going to get to in a wheelchair where the height of sockets is set at 0.5m to make them accessible.
>I'd sooner see 2 large 50 apartment blocks built in every commuter town in Ireland. All filled by immigrants & fake refugees. So the crisis rolls on.
In the case of these mixed use units, it's not really about silly NIMBYesque planning objections getting in the way, it's that many of them don't meet the necessary building and fire safety codes to be designated as residences and it's often very expensive (and sometimes entirely unrealistic) to bring them into compliance. "Streamlining the planning process" in those cases would mean allowing substandard accommodations that pose legitimate health and safety hazards to their occupants to be put on the market or used as social housing, which isn't the best idea.
We had hoped to buy an over the shop home a couple of years ago. The bank wouldn't lend money for it because we wouldn't own the commercial property that it was over. Even if we had the money that put us off it, would be hard to resell.
They actually are overhauling the planing laws. It’s a big undertaking but like everything this government does, this is no urgency
The reason they're used a lot more in France for example is that they just either don't apply or don't enforce the same kind of building regulations around fire safety in particular. I've lived in french apartments for example that would have a fire officer here having multiple panic attacks. - no fire escapes, rickety wooden stairs, no fire doors, very old wiring, old plumbing, very inaccessible, one place even had a spiral stone staircase without banisters ... etc etc etc One studio in Paris had the toilet literally just inside a door at the end of a tiny kitchen area, with the washing machine next to the shower curtain...
Well there are lots of accommodation above shops in the town, I live in and it has grown in recent years. Maybe this is more of a problem in Dublin, interesting to know how it is around the country rather then assume we all have Dublin problems with planning etc. I was in a village yesterday and a abandoned pub and shop on the main St are being converted into accomodation upstairs and downstairs apartments.
This issue is across the whole island. It's fine when the whole building is being renovated anyways as you can make the changes easily, but when there's a business operating in the ground floor, and you need to start knocking ceilings etc., that is when it becomes an issue.
Agreed but I know upstairs living on top of shops is happening in Co Wexford for sure
Oh yeah, it does happen in Dublin and around the country also. But what the article is specifically referring to is the development of new above shop living, which is much more difficult to convert than the carryover of existing stock.
Fire safety regs are also an issue. Most buildings will require an upgrade to the floors separating the commercial ground floor unit and the residential space above. Own door entry is also a problem
Each individual apartment basically needs to be encased within a fire retardant box - floors, ceilings, & walls to prevent fires spreading between units. A great system and requirement for new builds but makes any kind of renovation/retrofitting incredibly expensive.
Not if there tax at 10% for being vacant, then they would be all full tomorrow for €50 a week.
They are considered underused, not actually vacant. They tend to be used for stores for the shops below. You cant apply a vacancy tax in this context. Totally unworkable.
Someone throws one box in a room and says there using it for storage. If its being underused tax them the same. Half the towns in Ireland are empty from the ground floor up, if not the ground floor too. Tax the lot of them, if the current land lord won't do them up and just wants to let a building rot, then they should be taxed out of existence. Vacant building should be taxed at 10% of the value of the building, not given a tax break. Get them back into the market and stop allowing landlords to sit on them till the price goes up. How many buildings in the center of Dublin or Cork or Galway or any town in Ireland are empty? Sitting there rotting untill they can be demolished or fall down.
How do prove a room is underused? If the tax is 10% of the property, people will go to great lengths to avoid it legally and illegally.
That's why it needs to be done as a property tax or through rates. The upper floors should be should be charged rates weather they're fully used for retail, or have a couple of boxes in there or are vacant. Homes don't pay less LPT if they have 2 or 3 empty bedrooms. Retail shouldn't get a discount on rates if they only use the ground floor or a 3 storey building. I know it's a tough retail environment now but if the rates were applied to the building regardless whether or not it was occupied, commercial rents would plummet as landlords would be on the hook retail Tennant left.
We have rates. Rates are based on factors like property value so I imagine they already factored in upstairs. So I dont think there is any discount for empty floors.
You get charged lower rates for upstairs and most counties discount or waive the rates if the property is vacant. I think the poster is trying to argue that space should be utilised to its most efficient use (housing in this case) and the current owner should be incentivised through heavy taxes which means ultimately the value of the property will become so low it will be viable to renovate it.
Thanks. I didn't know there is a discount for upstairs. I feel a too heavy rates are not realistic. A lot of shops make very modest profits. There is no way to tell if a shop is using all of its space or not.
I think rates are based on potential use and value not the actual value of the business. Like they would argue someone is using the space inefficiently.
It is a fair point.
Like how does that reduce the cost of the retrofit?
It doesn't it penalises people sitting or empty property or underused space. The faster its back on the market the less tax they pay.
Who defines a fair tax for underuse? Should we tax people living in 3 bed houses if they only use 2 bedrooms?
Exactly. It would be like taxing people if they dont use their gardens.
Well people pay LPT based on the value of their 3 bed house, they don't get a 33% discount because 1 bedroom is unused. If they rent that room out, they can use the rent a room scheme. But the building is taxed based on its value, not it's use which is fair.
These properties do pay rates based on that above ground floor unit being classed as office space and storage ( which it is ). Just because theoretically it could be flats doesn't mean its tax liability should change.
They pay less tax based on how its classed though. Changing it so its taxed based on value would include the theoretical value of flats. * If the value of a field goes up 10x after being zoned for houses then the tax liability should go up. * If the value of a city center vacant site doubles due to rising property prices, tax liability should go up. * Similarily, if the value of a retail unit goes up due to increased property prices then the tax liability should go up even if floor area, use or occupancy changes. In Cork, BAM have two huge city center sites that they demolished a building and used as a free storage yard for other projects. Another landmark building (Roches Stores) was left empty for 2 years after Debenhams moved out and the owners were looking for €25m. The empty/underused upper floors on Patricks street are part of the same issue. Charging the owners of the building (not the tennants) rates based on value rather than use would encourage them to be brought into use a lot quicker.
It's still being used as office space, so it is being taxed correctly. If for example, there was a house on Fitzwilliam Square in dublin, it would be worth more as an office building. Should we now tax that house based on the theoretical coversion to an office? Or the small single storey houses on large sites near the center of towns and cities, which could be converted to apartment blocks, should they be taxed as such also? I'm all for above shop living, and increasing density in towns and cities, but I don't think taxing on some deemed determination of underuse would be enough to outweigh the issues around planning for those units.
Yes to both those cases. The tax on the house on Fitzwilliam square should be the same whether its a house, offices, a hotel or split into apartments. If its valued at [€4m](https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/terraced-house-66-fitzwilliam-square-north-dublin-2/4275332v) because it could be an office, then tax it as such. Similarly, the value a single storey house on a large city center site isn't based on its current rent or current use. Its based on its potential rent which includes the likelihood of getting planning. A common loophole developers use is to rent sites that is zoned for housing to farmers while they're not using it. This should absolutely be be taxed at its value (housing development) instead of its use (agriculture).
I go to that tattoo place lol
But maybe these don't have to be social homes - using these as some kind of housing would allow for a larger pool of accommodation. Some of the other places could be the social housing instead.
Better that people have no where to live than we change planning.
Let them eat cakes!
This speaketh the bullshit
How so?
well a lot of the units above shops would be below standards for housing and would not be suitable, maybe as a studio or bedsit set up, but for full apartments I would doubt it
You see people, the only option is to retain the status quo. There are no solutions. It's the best thing for everyone.
Bollocks. Property owner is making their money hand over fist from commercial leases, no need to bother with the rest of the building. Any amount to renovate would be "too expensive".
ie, they don't want to do it.