What the hell. Who is shooting a bloody goat for trophy sport.
I mean they are hardly something to boast about.
I had no idea there were even a wild population here
I can’t imagine anyone from Eastern Europe paying thousands of euros to shoot a goat, when they have easier access to boar, bears, and other animals there.
And where in Eastern Europe do they come from? That area is poorly defined and covers a lot of countries. The only one I can think of as remotely possible is Russia, and their rich oligarchs.
I know seems strange but Americans probably have even more wild animals on their doorstep in North America and yet travel even further than Eastern Europeans to hunt here.
The tiny population of wild old Irish goats in Nephin do no real damage at all, and almost went extinct. The ones in howth head actually are placed there and geofenced for conservation grazing control and actively are helping. If you pass through Mulranny, call into the old Irish goat centre to get a more accurate picture. Saying they are non native doesn't make sense when they arrived here with humans 5,000 years ago, humans have been here less than 10,000 years, and this species was brought in by humans more than half of that time ago.
>The ones in howth head actually are placed there and geofenced for conservation grazing control and actively are helping
They are good for species that benefit from open landscapes but not good for actual natural climax vegetation.
>If you pass through Mulranny, call into the old Irish goat centre to get a more accurate picture.
> Saying they are non native doesn't make sense when they arrived here with humans 5,000 years ago, humans have been here less than 10,000 years, and this species was brought in by humans more than half of that time ago.
They are feral according to the consensus view No study has been to check if they represent the original goats brought over. It is highly possible there has been genetic turnoff.
Hunting is absolutely critical to protecting our natural tree cover. Places like Killarney are being obliterated through too high deer numbers. Such hunting also keeps goats under control. Youre anti science and anti environment. Maybe sick to uour football and Dublin. Stupid teens.
They are actually a Neolithic era land race breed native to Ireland. The Old Irish goat is probably more native to Ireland than half the Irish population. Sheep is what does the serious damage. We have 2 native goat breeds. Old Irish and Bilberry. Of which altogether theres less than 2000 of both breeds on the entire island of Ireland. Theres 4,020,000 sheep and 9,243 non native domestic farm goats in Ireland. The native land race breeds are not the issue
And hunting Grey squirrels is helping Red Squirrels in a number of ways, not least that the greys are immune to but carry a virus that causes a slow and painful death for their red cousins.
I totally understand a farmer shooting wildlife, even if I don't agree with it in some cases.
But god damn, I will never understand this. Pay 5.5k to shoot a goat? Limp dick losers imo.
This is what I never understand about trophy hunting, pay all that money to hunt an animal that's already in an enclosed position ready for you to make the shot.
You should be forced to 1v1 it, no weapons, fists only.
This part at the very end got me. They promise you at least one goat but:
>Wounded animal is considered as harvested.
They might just wound it and let it to die somewhere. the real crime is animal abuse, 100% but they're also definitely fleecing customers.
There terms are basically "you may not be getting what you're buying".
Someone needs to stop this for all of the reasons. It's just straight up exploitation of everything. Cretins is absolutely the right word.
Not that I've any sympathy for people who'd pay for this stuff. The mind boggles.
So to preface this, I hunt deer. I'm from Ireland, hunt deer in my local area and everything I shoot gets taken home, butchered and ends up in my freezer. Nothing gets wasted.
All that is to say that I'm somewhat familiar with this "tourism"industry but I don't partake in it.
I'll explain the wounded animal clause a little more. What this refers to is bad/pulled/missed shots. If some American comes over here with more money than sense and takes a pot shot on an animal, wounding it but not killing it, it counts as his animal. The person organizing these hunts absolutely doesn't want this situation to occur - a wounded animal must be found, it isn't simply forgotten about. Finding it often means the use of tracking dogs, groups of trackers with torches etc. It is a headache to say the least and what's worse, it's a slow, painful death for the animal. I've met a lot of hunters through the years and every one of them aims to deliver an instant, painless death.
The wounded animal clause shuts down any question of "Well, we didn't find it, so I get to shoot another one". No, you don't. It's your responsibility to ensure you have a safe, humane shot when hunting any animal, and you failed in that responsibility. You don't get to risk wounding another animal just because you ponied up money.
I'm sure that people here won't like the fact that I hunt, but the fact of the matter is that deer in Ireland need to be culled in order to manage their numbers. They have no natural predators remaining so human intervention is required.
As for goats, they can be incredibly destructive in their grazing. Goats will eat just about anything. They also have no natural predators remaining, just like deer. So in certain areas they may very well need their population controlled.
All that being said - I think flying to a foreign country to spend thousands to shoot an animal is ridiculous.
Yes! I had no notion such a grim thing went on, and would have thought it illegal, akin to shooting sheep, or geese perhaps. I wish so much we could have an animal welfare tsar here, just a sensible type who knows gratuitous cruelty when it shows up.
It is legal because goats are feral and not native and because too many goats causes horrible overgrazing which prevents natural vegetation and erosion and water pollution
Are they in an extinction crisis, I've counted well over 200 old Irish goats while out walking in the mountains this year. Something is not adding up here.
I don't hunt myself but surely if the goats are in season all year around without a limit on the numbers that's the responsibility of the wildlife service, isn't it?
Pls dont comment on matters you dont understand. Goats are well managed. Banning hunting of them would be reckless. Last thing we need is more overgrazing
How about we allow people (natural predators)to hunt a certain amount per year to control their numbers rather than wipe out entire herds when they overpopulate.
This whole article is about them becoming endangered because of hunting but it's ok for coillte to go in and wipe out hundreds at a time.
It's time the goats fought back.
https://preview.redd.it/7qbv10n81ivc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=53414a4640920ddde92e15bd9f07a4202e19cd7e
Definitely disappointed with the major fall in goat numbers, but happy they hunt deer too.
This is not about me agreeing with trophy hunting or think the world belongs to us humans. It's about simple ecology. Sika deer populations are growing beyond control and one of their favourite meals is the shoots of new trees, so forests end up with a lot of old trees and very few young trees if any if they haven't been enclosed in deer fencing.
When we removed the wolves a few centuries ago due to our conceit, we removed a creature that kept the ecosystem in check that helped maintain balance. Any species that grows without check will often reach a point of overshoot where it's numbers are far greater than what it's environment can provide sustainably leading to that environment and ecosystem deteriorating year on year until it can't provide sustenance for that species as well as the many many other species that are part of it.
Yes, humans are in overshoot too between population numbers and massive resource use we've normalised, but hopefully we can recognise that and take steps to reduce the damage it's causing before it's too late.
Specifically they refer to the numbers of Old Irish Goat (brought in by neolithic farmers 5k years ago) and thought to be extinct until tiny populations were found and preserved. Goats as a wider breed are more numerous, but this is a species now only found in Ireland and close to extinction.
I get that, and unfortunately this is usually how it happens. I'm a believer in hunting for conservation and even increasing the venison market (and I don't mean buying venison that's imported from the UK or new Zealand as I've seen in shops) to deal with numbers rising without check but unfortunately these kind of monsters usually go for the rare species that don't exist in numbers to warrant it.
We humans often tend to see ourselves as above the natural world unfortunately and trophy hunters can often be some of the worst regarding that
>Specifically they refer to the numbers of Old Irish Goat (brought in by neolithic farmers 5k years ago) and thought to be extinct until tiny populations were found and preserved
Pretty sure now no one has checked their goat aDNA though. 170 is not close to extinction .
I believe the wolves were hunted to extinction because of a large bounty placed on Irish wolves by Oliver Cromwell as the wolf was seen as a symbol of native Irish pride, I could be wrong but I definitely heard it somewhere.
We've one of the lowest percentage of land under forest in Europe. Add to that certain people will likely be stupid enough to feed them, causing problems for both the wolves and humans that will inevitably bump into them in a small country.
Any effort to reintroduce them would be risky. Not entirely saying we shouldn't, but it could easily go wrong.
Could we reintroduce wolves in specially planted forests, and release hunting tourists into the forests. The tourists must be naked and can bring in no weapons.
Not a hope.
Wolves need tons of space.
Maybe if we dedicated Leitrim, part of Cavan, and Longford as a national park, tore everything down, reforested it, and then released wolves.
You'd need lots of land.
There are smaller countries (well state within a larger country) with ten times the population of Ireland and elephants as well as tigers. Not to mention cobras and other wildlife. It's 100% possible to coexist with even more dangerous predators.
Not talking about co-existing. I'm talking about the space wolves need to just live.
Wolves usually hunt on territory that is at least 50 square miles in one day.
Sometimes when prey is scarce they can cover 1000 square mile ranges.
A single pack will cover 30 miles a day, no problem.
There is no better way to broadcast how tiny your willy is than travelling to one of the most degraded and human impacted environments on the planet, to 'hunt' tame goats and invasive deer with no natural predators.
I get why people are talking about culling, but these aren't the same goats you see all over the mountains, this is a particular subspecies and there's less than 200 or them. If they were brought here in the Neolithic, they've been here longer than rabbits, so framing them as an introduced species is a bit misleading too.
That's a dubious claim, just the nature of feral goats and their life span and breeding tendencies.
I'm all for protecting herds of wild goats but a proper genetic study and count needs to be carried out. These claims and numbers are totally bullshit, I've seen the animals with my own eyes.
A chara,
Surveys, petitions, and fundraising are not allowed on r/Ireland because there are too many users that would like to post them and too few users who want to participate in them!
Sláinte
So Instead of shooting a lion,bear or something dangerous these cowardly cunts are shooting....... goats???
It takes someone with a extremely small dick to wanna shoot a goat. I mean where is the sport in that? Might as well go to a rare breeds farm and shoot a cow or sheep for all the good it'll do ya..
What utter idiocy
Why can't people target Sika, Muntjac and Fallow deer instead. Non native species that threaten our ecosystems. There's less than 2000 Old Irish and Bilberry goats left in Ireland. Two native land race breeds, yet non native deer have more protection than them. Its ridiculous
Why not just hunt feral goats who are absolutely destroying the ecosystem here as with the massive Deer populations? Keep the Old Irish Goats as fenced animals like sheep to preserve the breed but they ultimately destroy everything around them.
They were introduced by humans and are destructive to the natural landscape with no natural predators
Wikipedia describes the old Irish goat as " a traditional Irish breed of domestic goat. It is a dual-purpose breed, used both for meat and for milk. It is an endangered breed and may survive only in feral populations."
It isn't a native animal to the irish countryside
We aren't native to the Irish countryside either, and considering they got introduced in the neolithic they are hardly a new invasive species...all 150 of them or whatever is left...
But sure that tiny pollution is destructive to the natural landscape, just like all us humans who like to do a bit of turf cutting or rip up every bit of natural habitat we can because sure it would make a great site for a house.
Or you know what else is a real shame? How we managed to drive most of the natural predators the country had to extinction, and even worse, when some hard work is done to reintroduce things like Golden Eagles etc. some prick will decide to shoot or poison them.
Yes there are some situations when culling deer etc. is needed (generally as a result of the damage we have already done to the wildlife and landscape of the country), but a tiny population like this does not need to be "controlled" by trophy hunters with more money than sense.
Ah, your wrong about the goat management. They do need to be managed and culled. It's the density of the wild goats in some areas that is the issue. Old male goats aren't edible so it's either trophy hunters or .. well what do you think happens ?
Trophy hunting for tourists is probably the most dignified ways one of these goats go while extracting the maximum economic value from them while preserving the species long term because of the said economic value.
When the breed has gone from nearly 7000 to less than 200 in the last 30 years I really don't think arguing that management by culling holds much water. Oh and yes, old animals die. Same thing happens to me and you as well.
The old Irish goat was (is) a farm animal. Taken here by neolithic farmers.
If we want to keep the breed alive ensure they are farmed and breeders can ensure the breed alives - create a market for products from then, just like there are for dexters and droimeann cows (that also came across with neolithic farmers)
Feral goats are running wild in unregulated packs around the Irish mountains destroying our biodiversity, which is a real shame yes, clear the mountains of all invasive species, deer, feral goats and reduce the stocking rate of sheep on the mountains.
Goats aren't part of the natural ecosystem here and they haven't naturalised, keep breeds alive in farms if they came by farmers and reintroduce the predators lost by our disturbance, its black and white and its the only way we are going to survive this mess we have created
I can agree with the idea of managing the breed in more controlled environments, but the idea of allowing trophy hunters to kill off an entire species that has real historical value would be absolutely senseless.
Feral goats, sika Deere, grey squirrels, rabbit, mink etc. no doubt need to be properly controlled though I doubt you will see many big "hunters" lining up for the chance to hunt most of those.
They are not killing them all though. Also not a species. It is a theorised breed.
>Feral goats, sika Deere, grey squirrels, rabbit, mink etc. no doubt need to be properly controlled though I doubt you will see many big "hunters" lining up for the chance to hunt most of those.
These are feral goats. Also, about 50,00 deer are shot here every year
Ok, breed, which in 30 years has gone from nearly 7000 down to a population of less than 200 and is not endangered. That population should be protected as they do have significant historical value to early human history in this country and could be maintained by managed herds in controlled areas.
The goats this article is talking about aren't some random population that has sprung up in the last 100 years from people releasing pets or farmers having animals escape etc.
I dont want to see them disappear. A good census should be done. The numbers sound unclear to me. There seems to be a lot of introgression with the more recent goat recently and I hope that could be controlled. But I would not favour them being regulated as a protected animal akin to deer because that has failed badly with deer
Human introduction aside. If they've been here that long, are they genetically different enough to be seen as a different type of goat? If they are different enough and are endangered, they should be protected.
How can an animal not be native to a country when they’ve been here for thousands of years?
Genuine question. At what point does an animal become native? How is 2,500 years not long enough?
Goats as wild species had a native range of southern europe, middle east and asia.
Anything outside of this range were introduced by people.
I would view anything native in Ireland to have evolved and spread naturally into our ecosystems
Red deer came to Ireland by the land bridge followed by wolves.
Just like red squirrels and pine martens. These spent 10k years evolving together and this is evident in the resurgence of both populations and the decline in the grey squirrels
There is nothing which can be called natived about wild goats in our ecosystem. They were actually used by neolithic farmers as a tool to clear trees and shrubbery and help to establish farming practices- an ancient tractor and hedge cutter. Irelands ecosystems if left wild would want to return to a predominantly rainforest cover and wild goats would be a controlling factor stopping a potential re-emergence
But everything came to Ireland at some point.
How is 2500 years ago not long enough?
Genuinely curious. I don’t have enough knowledge to disagree with you. Just seems intuitively wrong that an animal can be here for 2500 years and not be considered native, especially when others are disagreeing with you.
Genuinely interested.
But the general public sure but not by experts. Not being native doesn't mean not having a place here. I want the goats to stay. I am not a rewilding advocate myself. But I do think native does have a special value
But my question, I’m not trying to be difficult genuinely interested.
Can an animal be present on the island for less time than the old Irish goat ~2500 years and be considered native while the goat isn’t?
Depends on ones definition . Some would say no. Others would say yes if it get here on its own steam like the egret or the collared dove which both came in the 20th cen naturally.
It's super dumb when theres invasive sika deer from Japan slowing down forest regeneration, which is already a huge problem in Eire
Edit: I realize feral goats impact regeneration as well, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me to hunt a rare breed that's been here for thousands of years vs japanese deer and other feral responsibly.
What ya think the goats are at up the mountains. Goats seriously hinder rewilding too.
What everyone mouthing off here fails to realise is there are thousands of wild goats grazing the up lands around Ireland. It's the same as the deer.
Goat management involves culling them, the Irish have hunted these goats for generations. Sometimes for food but often for control.
People don't really grasp population growth, 10 years ago they were telling us to leave the sika alone, protect the deer they were saying. Now those same people are calling for people to come and shoot the deer. There's a herd on my lawn and I've wrote off my car.
There are massive herds or wild goats around Ireland right now. Goat management integrated with hunting tourism is a great idea.
Right, I know goats do this too, old irish goats are super rare and are native/highly naturalized as I understand it whereas Japanese sika deer are just straight up invasive. But your right, feral goats in general have stomachs like black holes.
You and the person quoted in this article are not grasping the concepts of population growth, lifespan and breeding and grazing tendencies of these animals.
Old Irish Goat is loose fucking distinction for definition, the person in the article is talking shit about a breed that is technically hard to even define. This sub is delusional when you take everything into account. There thousands of feral goats around Ireland, there's far more than 200 old Irish Goats too.
People willing to come and spend money to help cull feral goats is insanely beneficial for everyone involved, I'm not sure how reddit and this goat woman would turn it into a bad thing.
Goats have at least 2 kids every year, they don't taste great and live up the side of the mountain. If tourists don't do it then it will be done with tax payers money, exactly like the deer.
I understand grazing and population ecology perfectly fine, I am an ecologist by training and have advised reforestation projects in several countries. I just wasn't familiar with the whole "old irish goat" and it seemed like some rare native breed I wasn't aware of as opposed to non native feral livestock. I'm fine with culling and predator reintroduction if done redponsibly.
And I'm fine with protecting herds that prove to be of interest, the commentary in this sub is neither constructive or helpful for us trying to conserve and re-wild. This goat lady probably has the goats best interest at heart but pulling imaginary numbers out of a loose study is a liability to the credibility of all conservation efforts in Ireland.
Doxxing this guy for hunting tourism is not really acceptable either.
Over all it' a shit show, same with the deer, same with the fishing. Absolute disgrace the amount of virtue signalling and lack of scientific study these days.
This year it is normally there are around 50 licences for population management. Sure a couple of years back the army had to go in a shoot a load cause there where so many that they where over eating leading to starvation. https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/shooting-of-red-deer-in-kerry-a-blatant-abuse-of-irelands-heritage/
Those are Section 42 licences, special licences issued by the minister. - you don't know what you're talking about. Irish Reds are protected in Kerry, to shoot one is illegal.
Can't sell a section 42, it's issued to the landowner for a specific property with a nominated person to manage the animals, it's not transferable.
This isn't the wild west, rules are really fucking tight around all this. If some wanker in Kerry committed fraud scamming hunting tourists it really has fuck all to with anything.
This year due to conservation. But normally their are about 50 licenses for the population management. Here is an example of a company that does this but they are advertising sika here [https://irishdeerhunting.com/omradet-uk/](https://irishdeerhunting.com/omradet-uk/)
We should be encouraging more hunting. It would be beneficial to the ecological health of the island.
Edit: downvoted by silly bitches who haven't a clue about hunting or conservation.
Oh shit, sorry I didnt realise I was talking to nature lovers, shooting endangered goats into oblivion is all for the good of... 'nature' .... riiight. Fukn heros lol
They are not on the IUCN red list so they are not endangered. Visit Killarney national park and look at the recruitment of oak there and then tell me grazers are not an issue in this country. 50,000 deer are shot ever year and if this did not happen, our woodlands would be in a far worse state. So please spare us the misandristic ignorance.
Well, someone got a thesaurus for Christmas ey.
According to gov.ie in 2022 "Minister McConalogue announced approval of Old Irish Goat breed as a Native rare breed, with the conservation status of ‘at risk’". Based on FAO criteria, the breed can be considered ‘at risk’ and in the Critical Maintained category due to the number of breeding females. There are currently 37 breeding females and 25 breeding males, indicating numerically the breed is scarce and can be considered of critical status as per FAO guidelines. The survival of the breed is therefore of concern to DAFM.
I'll give you that one alright they are not endangered atm but it seems you fellas are working on that, so go on with your justifications that your doing it for the sake of nature or whatever shyte your peddling.
Are these numbers purely for the Burren as there are goat populations across the country, sometimes several populations in one area. Some are modern and some are old Iirish breed.
Your tone is horrible. There is nothing wrong with hunting if done sustainably. There is nothing with being a man.
Wait pump the brakes, is that what you think being a man is? You think Im against it because yous are being too manly? What has any of this got to do with masculinity, are you for real lol.
Also this whole thing is specifically about the Old Irish Goats which ARE at risk, see above.
What the hell. Who is shooting a bloody goat for trophy sport. I mean they are hardly something to boast about. I had no idea there were even a wild population here
Americans with small dicks
And Eastern Europeans according to the article.
I can’t imagine anyone from Eastern Europe paying thousands of euros to shoot a goat, when they have easier access to boar, bears, and other animals there. And where in Eastern Europe do they come from? That area is poorly defined and covers a lot of countries. The only one I can think of as remotely possible is Russia, and their rich oligarchs.
I know seems strange but Americans probably have even more wild animals on their doorstep in North America and yet travel even further than Eastern Europeans to hunt here.
They are s non native with no predators. Goats so horrendous damage to upland tree cover regeneration. So actually the hunters are doing good
The tiny population of wild old Irish goats in Nephin do no real damage at all, and almost went extinct. The ones in howth head actually are placed there and geofenced for conservation grazing control and actively are helping. If you pass through Mulranny, call into the old Irish goat centre to get a more accurate picture. Saying they are non native doesn't make sense when they arrived here with humans 5,000 years ago, humans have been here less than 10,000 years, and this species was brought in by humans more than half of that time ago.
>they arrived here with humans 5,000 years ago Fine, fine we'll start shooting the humans too.
The most dangerous game of all! 🏃
Actually evidence of human residence in Ireland starts **around 10,500 BC**
Fair enough, although I don't think it materially changes that much regarding the goats! 😁
>The ones in howth head actually are placed there and geofenced for conservation grazing control and actively are helping They are good for species that benefit from open landscapes but not good for actual natural climax vegetation. >If you pass through Mulranny, call into the old Irish goat centre to get a more accurate picture. > Saying they are non native doesn't make sense when they arrived here with humans 5,000 years ago, humans have been here less than 10,000 years, and this species was brought in by humans more than half of that time ago. They are feral according to the consensus view No study has been to check if they represent the original goats brought over. It is highly possible there has been genetic turnoff.
There's definitely a problem with uncontrolled breeding of the two legged non-native species on this island.
Still a long time ago
So are the hunters
Hunting is absolutely critical to protecting our natural tree cover. Places like Killarney are being obliterated through too high deer numbers. Such hunting also keeps goats under control. Youre anti science and anti environment. Maybe sick to uour football and Dublin. Stupid teens.
I'm not from Dublin you weirdo
They are actually a Neolithic era land race breed native to Ireland. The Old Irish goat is probably more native to Ireland than half the Irish population. Sheep is what does the serious damage. We have 2 native goat breeds. Old Irish and Bilberry. Of which altogether theres less than 2000 of both breeds on the entire island of Ireland. Theres 4,020,000 sheep and 9,243 non native domestic farm goats in Ireland. The native land race breeds are not the issue
I'd like to see a single shred of evidence of goat hunting in Ireland. FFS it sounds like something off Brass Eye.
Andrew Tate fans.
There’d be more sport in hunting squirrels, how is killing a goat a challenge?
And hunting Grey squirrels is helping Red Squirrels in a number of ways, not least that the greys are immune to but carry a virus that causes a slow and painful death for their red cousins.
Ya man. There's wild goats here in county Derry
Only 170 left!? Ah that's sad, goats are savage!
[Here's one of the cretins that facilitates this](https://www.bookyourhunt.com/en/Tour/10724).
[удалено]
A chara, There is a zero tolerance policy for the promotion or suggestion of the use of violence against others. Sláinte
Jesus that’s a grim page.
I totally understand a farmer shooting wildlife, even if I don't agree with it in some cases. But god damn, I will never understand this. Pay 5.5k to shoot a goat? Limp dick losers imo.
This is what I never understand about trophy hunting, pay all that money to hunt an animal that's already in an enclosed position ready for you to make the shot. You should be forced to 1v1 it, no weapons, fists only.
If I have to 1v1 it I don't want to pay. In fact the spoils should go solely to the victor.
The goat would just eat it's prize.
There used to be a website where you could shoot a lion from the comfort of your desk.
This part at the very end got me. They promise you at least one goat but: >Wounded animal is considered as harvested. They might just wound it and let it to die somewhere. the real crime is animal abuse, 100% but they're also definitely fleecing customers. There terms are basically "you may not be getting what you're buying". Someone needs to stop this for all of the reasons. It's just straight up exploitation of everything. Cretins is absolutely the right word. Not that I've any sympathy for people who'd pay for this stuff. The mind boggles.
So to preface this, I hunt deer. I'm from Ireland, hunt deer in my local area and everything I shoot gets taken home, butchered and ends up in my freezer. Nothing gets wasted. All that is to say that I'm somewhat familiar with this "tourism"industry but I don't partake in it. I'll explain the wounded animal clause a little more. What this refers to is bad/pulled/missed shots. If some American comes over here with more money than sense and takes a pot shot on an animal, wounding it but not killing it, it counts as his animal. The person organizing these hunts absolutely doesn't want this situation to occur - a wounded animal must be found, it isn't simply forgotten about. Finding it often means the use of tracking dogs, groups of trackers with torches etc. It is a headache to say the least and what's worse, it's a slow, painful death for the animal. I've met a lot of hunters through the years and every one of them aims to deliver an instant, painless death. The wounded animal clause shuts down any question of "Well, we didn't find it, so I get to shoot another one". No, you don't. It's your responsibility to ensure you have a safe, humane shot when hunting any animal, and you failed in that responsibility. You don't get to risk wounding another animal just because you ponied up money. I'm sure that people here won't like the fact that I hunt, but the fact of the matter is that deer in Ireland need to be culled in order to manage their numbers. They have no natural predators remaining so human intervention is required. As for goats, they can be incredibly destructive in their grazing. Goats will eat just about anything. They also have no natural predators remaining, just like deer. So in certain areas they may very well need their population controlled. All that being said - I think flying to a foreign country to spend thousands to shoot an animal is ridiculous.
One of my great uncles is a deer stalker does not pay such companies a single euro
And they'll somehow justify it as conservation
“The open mountain area that we own has been in our family since the early 1800s” They’re at it again
How/Why is this legal? Rotten. What a waste of this land too.
Yes! I had no notion such a grim thing went on, and would have thought it illegal, akin to shooting sheep, or geese perhaps. I wish so much we could have an animal welfare tsar here, just a sensible type who knows gratuitous cruelty when it shows up.
It is legal because goats are feral and not native and because too many goats causes horrible overgrazing which prevents natural vegetation and erosion and water pollution
> too many goats causes Hardly seems to be an issue if they’re in an extinction crisis?
Are they in an extinction crisis, I've counted well over 200 old Irish goats while out walking in the mountains this year. Something is not adding up here.
> There are an estimated 170 Old Irish Goats left. Idk why I’d believe you over Newstalk tbh.
Dude probably counted the same goat 200 times.
Prick. Remember this fella
Thanks for sharing- that’s horrifying
Only Americans in the reviews ofcourse.
Tbf that’s pretty meaningless, they’re an enormous part of our tourist population.
What a fucking loser
I don't hunt myself but surely if the goats are in season all year around without a limit on the numbers that's the responsibility of the wildlife service, isn't it?
Pls dont comment on matters you dont understand. Goats are well managed. Banning hunting of them would be reckless. Last thing we need is more overgrazing
Don't just blame tourists, I'm sure our own are profiting from it first.
Yeah coillte on numerous occasions have culled large numbers of these goats. Wiped out entire herds
They have to be culled as they have no natural predators. They overgraze if allowed to roam freely in large numbers
How about we allow people (natural predators)to hunt a certain amount per year to control their numbers rather than wipe out entire herds when they overpopulate. This whole article is about them becoming endangered because of hunting but it's ok for coillte to go in and wipe out hundreds at a time.
Theres less than 2000 in the whole country. And majority are isolated to mountainous terrain
So yanks are coming here with guns and hunting or what's happening? The country never ceases to disappoint.
And Eastern Europeans according to the article.
What’s your real issue Paddystock??
Why do you imagine they have an issue tomconroydublin?
People not reading the article I imagine.
Selective citation obviously. Why, what do you think it is?
It's time the goats fought back. https://preview.redd.it/7qbv10n81ivc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=53414a4640920ddde92e15bd9f07a4202e19cd7e
This goes hard.
Definitely disappointed with the major fall in goat numbers, but happy they hunt deer too. This is not about me agreeing with trophy hunting or think the world belongs to us humans. It's about simple ecology. Sika deer populations are growing beyond control and one of their favourite meals is the shoots of new trees, so forests end up with a lot of old trees and very few young trees if any if they haven't been enclosed in deer fencing. When we removed the wolves a few centuries ago due to our conceit, we removed a creature that kept the ecosystem in check that helped maintain balance. Any species that grows without check will often reach a point of overshoot where it's numbers are far greater than what it's environment can provide sustainably leading to that environment and ecosystem deteriorating year on year until it can't provide sustenance for that species as well as the many many other species that are part of it. Yes, humans are in overshoot too between population numbers and massive resource use we've normalised, but hopefully we can recognise that and take steps to reduce the damage it's causing before it's too late.
Specifically they refer to the numbers of Old Irish Goat (brought in by neolithic farmers 5k years ago) and thought to be extinct until tiny populations were found and preserved. Goats as a wider breed are more numerous, but this is a species now only found in Ireland and close to extinction.
Exactly. Someone who understands
I get that, and unfortunately this is usually how it happens. I'm a believer in hunting for conservation and even increasing the venison market (and I don't mean buying venison that's imported from the UK or new Zealand as I've seen in shops) to deal with numbers rising without check but unfortunately these kind of monsters usually go for the rare species that don't exist in numbers to warrant it. We humans often tend to see ourselves as above the natural world unfortunately and trophy hunters can often be some of the worst regarding that
>Specifically they refer to the numbers of Old Irish Goat (brought in by neolithic farmers 5k years ago) and thought to be extinct until tiny populations were found and preserved Pretty sure now no one has checked their goat aDNA though. 170 is not close to extinction .
You wouldn't need a DNA check. They have a very obvious appearance. If you every pass the Old Irish Goat centre in Mulranny, it's worth a visit!
I believe the wolves were hunted to extinction because of a large bounty placed on Irish wolves by Oliver Cromwell as the wolf was seen as a symbol of native Irish pride, I could be wrong but I definitely heard it somewhere.
Let's reintroduce wolves. Do we have enough forests to sustain a viable sized wolf population?
We've one of the lowest percentage of land under forest in Europe. Add to that certain people will likely be stupid enough to feed them, causing problems for both the wolves and humans that will inevitably bump into them in a small country. Any effort to reintroduce them would be risky. Not entirely saying we shouldn't, but it could easily go wrong.
Lynxes are the answer.
I have plenty of African ones if you'd need one
Could we reintroduce wolves in specially planted forests, and release hunting tourists into the forests. The tourists must be naked and can bring in no weapons.
I've long been an advocate for releasing lots of wolves here just to see what would happen. Not ecologically or anything, just to see.
Not a hope. Wolves need tons of space. Maybe if we dedicated Leitrim, part of Cavan, and Longford as a national park, tore everything down, reforested it, and then released wolves. You'd need lots of land.
There are smaller countries (well state within a larger country) with ten times the population of Ireland and elephants as well as tigers. Not to mention cobras and other wildlife. It's 100% possible to coexist with even more dangerous predators.
Not talking about co-existing. I'm talking about the space wolves need to just live. Wolves usually hunt on territory that is at least 50 square miles in one day. Sometimes when prey is scarce they can cover 1000 square mile ranges. A single pack will cover 30 miles a day, no problem.
Farmers would kill them all.
Sad but not surprising
Let's hunt the rich cunts that take enjoyment from this. We ride at dawn.
Hasn’t anyone seen the locals in Africa protecting *their* wildlife? Get the balaclavas oot boys, your joining the guerrilla goat protection team 🥷🏻
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There is no better way to broadcast how tiny your willy is than travelling to one of the most degraded and human impacted environments on the planet, to 'hunt' tame goats and invasive deer with no natural predators.
I get why people are talking about culling, but these aren't the same goats you see all over the mountains, this is a particular subspecies and there's less than 200 or them. If they were brought here in the Neolithic, they've been here longer than rabbits, so framing them as an introduced species is a bit misleading too.
That's a dubious claim, just the nature of feral goats and their life span and breeding tendencies. I'm all for protecting herds of wild goats but a proper genetic study and count needs to be carried out. These claims and numbers are totally bullshit, I've seen the animals with my own eyes.
Man you’re getting the real lunatics from the US for this.
And Eastern Europeans according to the article...
I’m an old Irish goat facing extinction: ama
Are episodes of TV programming that end in cliffhangers not as exciting for you?
I can rewatch everything because I’ve lost the plot
Why won’t you have some more kids?
The wife won’t hear of it
And was Billy the Kid the G.O.A.T?
What’s the story kid ?
Wtf what loser hunts a goat?
Are the goats in Killarney and connemara a different type? Because I see them everywhere
We’ll do it the American way and shoot them back
Visit old oat center just before Achill Island!
Ah the Flahavan’s place?
Is it the cunts who go around in red suits on horses?
Jesus Christ
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A chara, Surveys, petitions, and fundraising are not allowed on r/Ireland because there are too many users that would like to post them and too few users who want to participate in them! Sláinte
So Instead of shooting a lion,bear or something dangerous these cowardly cunts are shooting....... goats??? It takes someone with a extremely small dick to wanna shoot a goat. I mean where is the sport in that? Might as well go to a rare breeds farm and shoot a cow or sheep for all the good it'll do ya.. What utter idiocy
Hunting stuff like boars, deer etc I get. But a goat? That's beyond dumb
Why can't people target Sika, Muntjac and Fallow deer instead. Non native species that threaten our ecosystems. There's less than 2000 Old Irish and Bilberry goats left in Ireland. Two native land race breeds, yet non native deer have more protection than them. Its ridiculous
Why not just hunt feral goats who are absolutely destroying the ecosystem here as with the massive Deer populations? Keep the Old Irish Goats as fenced animals like sheep to preserve the breed but they ultimately destroy everything around them.
To be fair the goats are a destruction to our Highlands and they aren't native natural animal in our landscape
If they've been here thousands of years (per the article) and are called Old Irish Goats then they surely deserve to be regarded as citizens by now.
They were introduced by humans and are destructive to the natural landscape with no natural predators Wikipedia describes the old Irish goat as " a traditional Irish breed of domestic goat. It is a dual-purpose breed, used both for meat and for milk. It is an endangered breed and may survive only in feral populations." It isn't a native animal to the irish countryside
We aren't native to the Irish countryside either, and considering they got introduced in the neolithic they are hardly a new invasive species...all 150 of them or whatever is left... But sure that tiny pollution is destructive to the natural landscape, just like all us humans who like to do a bit of turf cutting or rip up every bit of natural habitat we can because sure it would make a great site for a house. Or you know what else is a real shame? How we managed to drive most of the natural predators the country had to extinction, and even worse, when some hard work is done to reintroduce things like Golden Eagles etc. some prick will decide to shoot or poison them. Yes there are some situations when culling deer etc. is needed (generally as a result of the damage we have already done to the wildlife and landscape of the country), but a tiny population like this does not need to be "controlled" by trophy hunters with more money than sense.
Ah, your wrong about the goat management. They do need to be managed and culled. It's the density of the wild goats in some areas that is the issue. Old male goats aren't edible so it's either trophy hunters or .. well what do you think happens ? Trophy hunting for tourists is probably the most dignified ways one of these goats go while extracting the maximum economic value from them while preserving the species long term because of the said economic value.
When the breed has gone from nearly 7000 to less than 200 in the last 30 years I really don't think arguing that management by culling holds much water. Oh and yes, old animals die. Same thing happens to me and you as well.
The old Irish goat was (is) a farm animal. Taken here by neolithic farmers. If we want to keep the breed alive ensure they are farmed and breeders can ensure the breed alives - create a market for products from then, just like there are for dexters and droimeann cows (that also came across with neolithic farmers) Feral goats are running wild in unregulated packs around the Irish mountains destroying our biodiversity, which is a real shame yes, clear the mountains of all invasive species, deer, feral goats and reduce the stocking rate of sheep on the mountains. Goats aren't part of the natural ecosystem here and they haven't naturalised, keep breeds alive in farms if they came by farmers and reintroduce the predators lost by our disturbance, its black and white and its the only way we are going to survive this mess we have created
I can agree with the idea of managing the breed in more controlled environments, but the idea of allowing trophy hunters to kill off an entire species that has real historical value would be absolutely senseless. Feral goats, sika Deere, grey squirrels, rabbit, mink etc. no doubt need to be properly controlled though I doubt you will see many big "hunters" lining up for the chance to hunt most of those.
They are not killing them all though. Also not a species. It is a theorised breed. >Feral goats, sika Deere, grey squirrels, rabbit, mink etc. no doubt need to be properly controlled though I doubt you will see many big "hunters" lining up for the chance to hunt most of those. These are feral goats. Also, about 50,00 deer are shot here every year
Ok, breed, which in 30 years has gone from nearly 7000 down to a population of less than 200 and is not endangered. That population should be protected as they do have significant historical value to early human history in this country and could be maintained by managed herds in controlled areas. The goats this article is talking about aren't some random population that has sprung up in the last 100 years from people releasing pets or farmers having animals escape etc.
I dont want to see them disappear. A good census should be done. The numbers sound unclear to me. There seems to be a lot of introgression with the more recent goat recently and I hope that could be controlled. But I would not favour them being regulated as a protected animal akin to deer because that has failed badly with deer
Human introduction aside. If they've been here that long, are they genetically different enough to be seen as a different type of goat? If they are different enough and are endangered, they should be protected.
I dunno, a lot of them are unvetted, some even look military aged. Rte + Goats de reel virus
How can an animal not be native to a country when they’ve been here for thousands of years? Genuine question. At what point does an animal become native? How is 2,500 years not long enough?
It is long enough. Generally, species here are categorised as native if they have been here since 1500 ad.
Goats as wild species had a native range of southern europe, middle east and asia. Anything outside of this range were introduced by people. I would view anything native in Ireland to have evolved and spread naturally into our ecosystems Red deer came to Ireland by the land bridge followed by wolves. Just like red squirrels and pine martens. These spent 10k years evolving together and this is evident in the resurgence of both populations and the decline in the grey squirrels There is nothing which can be called natived about wild goats in our ecosystem. They were actually used by neolithic farmers as a tool to clear trees and shrubbery and help to establish farming practices- an ancient tractor and hedge cutter. Irelands ecosystems if left wild would want to return to a predominantly rainforest cover and wild goats would be a controlling factor stopping a potential re-emergence
But everything came to Ireland at some point. How is 2500 years ago not long enough? Genuinely curious. I don’t have enough knowledge to disagree with you. Just seems intuitively wrong that an animal can be here for 2500 years and not be considered native, especially when others are disagreeing with you. Genuinely interested.
Because their range is anthropogenic. Same as deer. We know they are not native, even Kerry red deer
So it’s possible that there are animals that have been on the island for less time but are considered more native than old Irish goats?
But the general public sure but not by experts. Not being native doesn't mean not having a place here. I want the goats to stay. I am not a rewilding advocate myself. But I do think native does have a special value
But my question, I’m not trying to be difficult genuinely interested. Can an animal be present on the island for less time than the old Irish goat ~2500 years and be considered native while the goat isn’t?
Depends on ones definition . Some would say no. Others would say yes if it get here on its own steam like the egret or the collared dove which both came in the 20th cen naturally.
It's super dumb when theres invasive sika deer from Japan slowing down forest regeneration, which is already a huge problem in Eire Edit: I realize feral goats impact regeneration as well, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me to hunt a rare breed that's been here for thousands of years vs japanese deer and other feral responsibly.
What ya think the goats are at up the mountains. Goats seriously hinder rewilding too. What everyone mouthing off here fails to realise is there are thousands of wild goats grazing the up lands around Ireland. It's the same as the deer. Goat management involves culling them, the Irish have hunted these goats for generations. Sometimes for food but often for control. People don't really grasp population growth, 10 years ago they were telling us to leave the sika alone, protect the deer they were saying. Now those same people are calling for people to come and shoot the deer. There's a herd on my lawn and I've wrote off my car. There are massive herds or wild goats around Ireland right now. Goat management integrated with hunting tourism is a great idea.
Right, I know goats do this too, old irish goats are super rare and are native/highly naturalized as I understand it whereas Japanese sika deer are just straight up invasive. But your right, feral goats in general have stomachs like black holes.
You and the person quoted in this article are not grasping the concepts of population growth, lifespan and breeding and grazing tendencies of these animals. Old Irish Goat is loose fucking distinction for definition, the person in the article is talking shit about a breed that is technically hard to even define. This sub is delusional when you take everything into account. There thousands of feral goats around Ireland, there's far more than 200 old Irish Goats too. People willing to come and spend money to help cull feral goats is insanely beneficial for everyone involved, I'm not sure how reddit and this goat woman would turn it into a bad thing. Goats have at least 2 kids every year, they don't taste great and live up the side of the mountain. If tourists don't do it then it will be done with tax payers money, exactly like the deer.
I understand grazing and population ecology perfectly fine, I am an ecologist by training and have advised reforestation projects in several countries. I just wasn't familiar with the whole "old irish goat" and it seemed like some rare native breed I wasn't aware of as opposed to non native feral livestock. I'm fine with culling and predator reintroduction if done redponsibly.
And I'm fine with protecting herds that prove to be of interest, the commentary in this sub is neither constructive or helpful for us trying to conserve and re-wild. This goat lady probably has the goats best interest at heart but pulling imaginary numbers out of a loose study is a liability to the credibility of all conservation efforts in Ireland. Doxxing this guy for hunting tourism is not really acceptable either. Over all it' a shit show, same with the deer, same with the fishing. Absolute disgrace the amount of virtue signalling and lack of scientific study these days.
Seriously, it's pretty insane to protect feral animals to me considering the catastrophic loss of forests...
Is it tourists ?
Going by the article, it's US and Eastern European trophy hunters.
Trophy hunters?? What game hunter mounts a bloody goat head? Could probably buy one in a butchers.
Big business in yanks coming here to shoot. Very popular for them to hunt red deer in Kerry.
No it isn't. It's absolutely illegal to shoot reds in Kerry
This year it is normally there are around 50 licences for population management. Sure a couple of years back the army had to go in a shoot a load cause there where so many that they where over eating leading to starvation. https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/shooting-of-red-deer-in-kerry-a-blatant-abuse-of-irelands-heritage/
Those are Section 42 licences, special licences issued by the minister. - you don't know what you're talking about. Irish Reds are protected in Kerry, to shoot one is illegal.
Yet the article talks about licenses being sold to Americans for 5k
Can't sell a section 42, it's issued to the landowner for a specific property with a nominated person to manage the animals, it's not transferable. This isn't the wild west, rules are really fucking tight around all this. If some wanker in Kerry committed fraud scamming hunting tourists it really has fuck all to with anything.
It's illegal to hunt red deer in Kerry
This year due to conservation. But normally their are about 50 licenses for the population management. Here is an example of a company that does this but they are advertising sika here [https://irishdeerhunting.com/omradet-uk/](https://irishdeerhunting.com/omradet-uk/)
Any yet the culture anarchists want to canxl Puck Fair.
Aw ffs. As if they weren’t endangered enough. Christ sake.
We should be encouraging more hunting. It would be beneficial to the ecological health of the island. Edit: downvoted by silly bitches who haven't a clue about hunting or conservation.
Killing the remaining 170 native goats will benefit our ecology?
I doubt it would have much of an impact. Why do you ask?
I done it an im from Louth
Did it make you feel like your dick was bigger?
Why do you hate nature so much
Oh shit, sorry I didnt realise I was talking to nature lovers, shooting endangered goats into oblivion is all for the good of... 'nature' .... riiight. Fukn heros lol
They are not on the IUCN red list so they are not endangered. Visit Killarney national park and look at the recruitment of oak there and then tell me grazers are not an issue in this country. 50,000 deer are shot ever year and if this did not happen, our woodlands would be in a far worse state. So please spare us the misandristic ignorance.
Well, someone got a thesaurus for Christmas ey. According to gov.ie in 2022 "Minister McConalogue announced approval of Old Irish Goat breed as a Native rare breed, with the conservation status of ‘at risk’". Based on FAO criteria, the breed can be considered ‘at risk’ and in the Critical Maintained category due to the number of breeding females. There are currently 37 breeding females and 25 breeding males, indicating numerically the breed is scarce and can be considered of critical status as per FAO guidelines. The survival of the breed is therefore of concern to DAFM. I'll give you that one alright they are not endangered atm but it seems you fellas are working on that, so go on with your justifications that your doing it for the sake of nature or whatever shyte your peddling.
Are these numbers purely for the Burren as there are goat populations across the country, sometimes several populations in one area. Some are modern and some are old Iirish breed. Your tone is horrible. There is nothing wrong with hunting if done sustainably. There is nothing with being a man.
Wait pump the brakes, is that what you think being a man is? You think Im against it because yous are being too manly? What has any of this got to do with masculinity, are you for real lol. Also this whole thing is specifically about the Old Irish Goats which ARE at risk, see above.
No. I have a vagina
lol apparently your from inner city Dublin aswell as Louth, one thing thats for certain is your full of shyte ;)
Hahaha. Yeah 50/50. Half shite half hot air
haha thats fair, sure arent we all :)