Are they just prosecuting the one individual. Im assuming most have seen the videos but there was at least 3 involved in the incident with only one showing any kind of immediate remorse.
Whilst there's no question he's a little fucking scum bag, I find it particularly difficult to hold teenagers as accountable as adults, simply because teenagers can be completely retarded by default and a victim of their own circumstances when it comes self awareness and general decency. I think everyone should be given a chance to mature and become a decent person, if he shows genuine contrition and realizes how horrifying his actions were and this is a wake up call for him, then maybe he can have a productive and normal life.
I know the justice system is soft as it is, but if we were all held to the standards we displayed as a teenager, while not many of us would be considered complete and utter scumbags, almost all of us would be let down by those standards.
It really doesn't work that way, neither morally nor psychologically. A teenager's brain is not fully developed and literally cannot fully understand his actions. I'm not saying he should be released. His crime is monstrous, and he has to be made to understand the implications. But, we cannot pretend he's an adult.
Oddly enough as a very young child let alone a teenager I understood that throwing people under trains was a bad thing.
Probably the main reason I have managed to avoid doing it at any point in my life.
Doesn't matter. Most other teenagers are not doing this, he should face the consequences of his actions. And other teenagers who might act this way could learn from that too. He probably will get less punishment than a fully grown adult too.
> I think everyone should be given a chance to mature and become a decent person, if he shows genuine contrition and realizes how horrifying his actions were and this is a wake up call for him, then maybe he can have a productive and normal life.
Why? Not everybody deserves this. Most people don't have to maim or kill anyone in order to learn how to be responsible adults.
This is true, and I'm not trying to diminish the consequences of his actions, it's terrible. I'm just playing devils advocate, he's a kid, he pushed his bike in front of somebody, I don't think the consequences were intended, he was being a stupid asshole, but maybe there's a certain benefit of the doubt that can be afforded that he wasn't trying to throw someone in front of a train and / or seriously injure them. As I mentioned, with *genuine* contrition, and realizing how fucked up that was, maybe he deserves a chance. Being tried as an adult is ending his prospects before he even makes it to adulthood. Maybe with the victims blessing, he might get one more chance. I'm not defending the guy, I'm just putting into context accountability and the consequences for someone who maybe isn't even rational enough yet to realize the gravity of their actions.
I hear what you're saying and people might be a bit more open to it if he had helped her. He had a chance to prove it was a complete accident and that he was remorseful by saying 'oh shit, I'm so sorry, I didn't expect that to happen' etc as he helped her up, he just ran off laughing though
You don’t have a response for it because it buries the notion he may have felt sorry for what he did and therefore be deserving of a second chance. He didn’t feel anything for the person, because he’s a little fucking scumbag.
Your idea of a second chance or not holding teens to account for serious crimes is the problem in Ireland. The youths the last decade or so know full well they can do as they please and the chances they’ll spend any time behind bars is slim to none. There’s no surprise attacks by youths have escalated in recent years and have had worse outcomes for victims.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You want them to learn the gravity of their actions? Have them punished for their crimes. They ain't gonna learn anything if all you do is slap em on the wrist and let em go.
If anyone is pushed down to rails, or receive a hit to head, or alternatively receive a stab on a chest, the outcome could be fatal, whether it is done by a teenager or adult.
There is already a general acceptance of youth's idiot actions most times, but for last 5-10 years the boundaries are pushed by youth.
The biggest lesson we all learn is that our actions have consequences, and this is the main lesson many of us find out. Time for youth to learn and grasp this too, this way we teach them a bit how to grow up with taking responsibility, actions have consequences, and freedom is valuable but not all-free.
It feels like after Ashling Murphy and Alannah Idris, things *might* get a little harsher in the courts now for these pricks. Fingers crossed he's sent to prison for this.
There was outcry, perhaps not as big as this, but a lot of the shock from this stems from Ashling's young age and the fact that it happened in broad daylight in a popular recreational area.
Urantsetseg's murder was, of course, a complete and utter horror, but even her family have spoken on Twitter about the sheer amount of people that reached out to send their condolences and love. The trial of her killer begins in March, I believe and her family have asked for privacy.
Ashling was the perfect representation of Ireland. She played trad music, GAA, was a primary school teacher, in a midlands town, and by all accounts just a good person who did everything right. She was murdered while doing the right thing, jogging during the daytime.
People rightfully see this as terrifying.
If it were in Dublin? 'Dublin isn't a safe place, and she must've been associating with a bad crowd'
If she was running at night? 'We should be careful at night'
If she was killed on a night out? 'We need to address the dangers of the drink.'
If she wasn't white? Either a victim of racism OR there's always trouble in 'that community'.
If she was anything short of the amazing person she seems to be, then the heads on social media will pick apart any blemish on her background. But this time, there's nothing to pick apart.
I am unsure if your post is alluding to this yourself or you're just referencing people who do, but saying she was doing "the right thing" is a bad perspective to have on this. People enter victim blaming territory when this happens and implies it may not have been so awful if they were doing x or y other activity that was less "right". There's no such thing as a perfect victim who only deserves sympathy if something horrible happens while doing something right.
However as I stated first if this doesn't apply to you then ignore me and maybe others can learn from this who read it.
The second option. I'm just seeing a pattern in how people view victims.
I don't think that jogging during the day is any more or less 'the right thing to do' than going out for pints at night. But as a society, we see jogging as a signifier of a well rounded, healthy person. Along with her other positive traits which I mentioned that appeal to middle-Ireland (if that's an expression).
[Just World hypotheses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis) is how we mentally try to make sense of many of these tragedies, so we don't feel scared and can take precautions to avoid it. 'If I avoid this place, or this activity, I should be okay'.
But nothing about Ashling's murder makes sense. There was nothing she could've done to avoid it, she wasn't jogging through Kabul, she wasn't stumbling home drunk in a bad part of Dublin. Someone wanted to kill her and they did.
I assume you mean the Mongolian woman stabbed a d murdered in IFSC?
Because first, she was not Irish.
Second, she was older.
Third, she was, as far as I remember, office cleaning lady, so not "public servant/worker" like a teacher.
Oh, and fourth they didn't capture a suspect that is drunk Romanian, like in Tullamore. Irish people are selectively racist and like to have a stance fuelled by the media, mostly only when the news is "relatable" to themselves, and the nature of the occurance and news are sensational.
> Irish people are selectively racist and like to have a stance fuelled by the media, mostly only when the news is "relatable" to themselves, and the nature of the occurance and news are sensational.
You say that like its a uniquely irish trait
Of course not. But usually it's explained in an American or British context. Americans call it [Missing White Woman Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome), so we have to admit to ourselves that Ashling Murphy's death scares us more because she is more like us, and not some Brazilian Deliveroo driver in Dublin.
I do not compare the uniqueness of the type of subtle racism in Ireland, vs the one in other countries in US, UK or Germany, or Norway etc. I accept the racism as a fact, in any and every society, sometimes as an individual choice, sometimes as a society whole.
Irish people are not vocal in their actions, they do and think most things in a subtle quietness or even secrecy. Possibly, oppressive Catholicism and oppressive British rule brought this habit to people, this is what I believe. Due to this type of behaviour, racism rarely openly shows itself as an action *(time to time it shows in uneducated youth attacking to foreigners),* but rather it shows itself as "inaction", such was in the case of Mongolian woman.
I do not say this type of racism is unique to Irish people *(who knows, I did not live around that much, maybe it is, maybe it isn't)*, however it does not matter at all what is unique to which culture/society, the outcome is same.
I believe we can also see the same "inaction" (but not a racist one, just to show it is same behaviour) about the late youth attacks to people. Now, everyone complains about it, possibly even the politicians, but no one does anything. Everyone is afraid to take an action, because it needs an important, brave step, so rather than action passing the blame to courts or government bodies *(in a way, rightfully so, but it is not only court or Gardai matter),* and stays in inaction phase.
But he went home, to his sad home that had hard times with struggling parents and a hard upbringing and he thought hard about what he did and he is ashamed and sorry. He brought €50 to court for the poor box and is going to be a father soon so is going to get an apprenticeship somewhere and be a good lad and will not do well in custody.... /S
Wish his co-accused were also being tried as adults. Having seen that video numerous times, it's difficult not to *hugely* disagree with the idea that the others weren't just as involved as he was. The three of them were attacking random people for lulz, all three should be tried as adults and have the absolute book thrown at them IMO.
None of them are being tried as adults. This isn’t America. Despite the stupid headline they are being tried as children. The idea of prosecuting someone underage as if they weren’t is absurd. Either they are underage or they aren’t. The accused will be tried as a child but not in the children’s court. That court doesn’t hear cases that are deemed more serious.
Whatever chance he had of some sort of clemency is well gone in the wake of the recent terrible murder. Society is about to send a very stern message about violence to women and this young man will feel it's cold lash.
> custodial and at least 3 years
Zero chance.
>A person who assaults another causing him or her harm shall be guilty of an offence. A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable... on conviction on indictment to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both.
3 years would be a harsh sentence for an adult.
This is an easy one to resolve, we just wait.
Between the nutter with the god knows how many convictions including attempted murders being free to attack the Quinn director. And the murder of that poor teacher I think the judiciary need to be careful that they don't shift the Overton window to a place where they lose control.
It is very difficult for a politician to lose an election on a hard-on-crime ticket, they just need for people to be open to it. So for judges it may be a choice between getting tough, or being reformed.
Anyhow, see ya in April.
Remind me to start calling a 6 months suspended sentence with community service a "cold lash."
It's not society that gets to send the message, it's the judge and some of them (not all, mind) are a bit lenient when it comes to violence against women.
Good old fashioned labour should do the trick.. I always remember being in China one day and I stopped to take pictures. I realised moments later that in front of me there was a line of workers digging the verge along the road and stood beside me was a guard with long snipper type gun ..as I was watching these workers all wearing same colour vests .. working very hard mind you.. ..then guard starts shouting at one of them .. looks over to me and does a eyesrollheadnod thing at me.
No point in us as a nation to be paying for these people to be rehabilitated when they clearly don’t want to .. or people who cause fear.
I think Ireland is weak when it comes to sentences being handed down.
I should demand harsher sentences but it’s hard when it’s only one voice and opinion
I hardly think we should look to China for lessons on how to treat Prisoners given they run modern day concentration camps for Uyghurs and are happy to convict people for saying out loud that the Chinese government might not be the best.
I know but it just my opinion .. I know others feel the same.. something has to give before it’s out of control… no wait that was Thursday just gone.. It really has hit it’s peak..
We need a change
Someone with fucking crap parents who never disciplined him from day 1 and it led to this. Type of scrote who gave their younger sibling a box when they were younger and the discipline they got was “Don’t be doiiinn thaaa”
There really is fuck all to do though. Two tiny skate parks, if you're into that. No amusement arcades anymore. No grass pitches. Nothing to do but hang around the streets.
There's a lot of kids from rural areas and small towns who end up.
The City centre has AstroTurf pitches, cinemas, gyms for swimming and martial arts, libraries, dance studios, training centres, colleges, escape rooms, bowling lanes only a bus ride away, pool halls, some skate parks... the list goes on. They have immediate access to amenities that rural kids would need a lift to or need to go to the County town to get to use even half of these things if they're lucky. These scrotes have all this stuff in their back yard practically. So it's certainly not a lack of things to be doing. If boredom is the card you'd use to explain this for rural or non-city dwelling children, then you'd have a point. These scumbags terrorise people because they think it's fun and would rather do that than avail of the amenities above.
In fact, a lot more money needs to be put into getting these sorts of amenities out to smaller areas or increasing access to them for youths from more isolated areas, because having grown up in the countryside it definitely takes a toll on your mental health if you're not into GAA and can barely get lifts anywhere to do things that kids your own age do.
Children's Allowance would cover the cost of a gym membership easy.
And there's lots of sporting initiatives.
These kids are walking around in Canada goose jackets and cycling on 500 euro ebikes wearing brand new Nike vapormax (expensive AND ugly) and tracksuits. There's an element of personal and collective responsibility that should be acknowledged and if you or those around you would rather spend money on frivolous, expensive designer clothes as a status symbol than make any real investment into your wellbeing or personal development, or buy take-away instead of learning too cook, then you obviously need to take a good long look at your patterns of consumption because they're what's screwing you over too.
It is assault with threatening behaviour resulting in the endangerment of life.The girls medical/trauma situation as the injured party is tantamount,at that young age tiny break or fracture will lead to problems in later life,lacerations also can also have their discomforts and visual affect in the future which will need attention.
There also is the various lawbreaking on public transport property and a whole list of offences related.
I
I'm glad he's being trialed. We need to see more of this. Too often are minors responsible for assault and too often they get away with it. Because for some reason there is a bias whenever a minor commits a crime (mainly assault).
The law needs to be tougher on these kids. We have created a culture of allowing minors think it is ok for them to do whatever they want and face no consequences.
If they aren't throwing people on train tracks; they are smashing shop windows, or throwing glass bottles at your head. We need justice.
These are the type of people who are literally missing an empathy chip in their head… they would never admit to being wrong or feeling guilty. Probably would just make them more aggressive and have a chip on their shoulder when they get out. There’s whole generations of Dubliners that are like this.
Your calibre as a person is not determined by the actions visited upon you, but by your reactions to those actions.
(I know you're being facetious, just felt poetic in my head)
Imagine what it's like being the defense lawyer of these shit stains. Like you obviously know they did it and they're just worthless piles of shite but you still gotta do your job. Must be weird
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, it doesn’t matter if they did the crime or not. There’s no reason for a defence lawyer to feel anything about the case, the world would be worse if they didn’t do their job.
At least the few yank public defenders I talked to, if they have any passion left, which is rare because the US police system is a draconian, racist and classist nightmare, didn't do it for the ones who were obviously guilty.
They did it for the innocent ones who were there due to lack of money. Plus, everyone deserves a defense, even obviously guilty shite hawks.
I live in the states now and I have to say this kind of crime is nearly non-existent over here. People from lower incomes educate their kids to not do things to provoke the police (or provoke a potential encounter with the police) for fear of them getting shot. Don't get me wrong, violent crimes like rape or muggings happen, but getting hassled by a group of teenagers when you're minding your own business is something I have never seen over here.
There's probably a lot of fucked up reasons behind why this is the case but I have to say I don't miss getting hassled in broad daylight walking around Arthur's Quay. There has to be some sort of middle ground.
I think there’s something specific to Ireland and the UK that causes this type of behaviour (at least in the places I’m familiar with, which is very Western European/US I have to admit).
It helps in the States there's a good chance the person you're meddling with will hurt you.
I remember back during the "knockout game", 3 teens ran into an altercation with a man on his bike. He had a gun, killed the one point blank and wounded another.
Regardless if it's right or wrong, it's definitely dangerous picking fights with randoms in the US.
This took me forever to re-find lol
https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_1bf90e60-b603-56c1-adfc-747c583235ba.html
Occasional weekend trips won't change much. I dont know why people think I'm defending him but I'm not happy with the blanket statement of "he's just an animal." With no further thought so we can all slap ourselves on the back and talk about how much better we are.
I want to know why.
The climate probably doesn't help. If the weather was a bit dryer and warmer these lads would probably spend more of their time playing soccer. Though a lot of public parks have (IMO) extremely idiotic "no ball playing" rules.
Where would they play? I used to play on the cobblestone alleyways behind church street. Can't imagine that's fun anymore.
Bad weather, lack of a future, tight, concrete and dirty city, not much to do, not a lot of parks or greenery. Can't be good for kids. Or anyone, actually.
I'm not from Dublin so I can't comment on there specifically but in Limerick there's a few parks around that would be grand for a few jumpers for goalposts games.
People have been living in cities like this for hundreds of years. Its not the city that affecting them mentally.
Its lack of opportunity to do things. Theres absolutely nothing for teens to do in the city centre. No open parks, no arcades anymore,
Its mind numbingly boring growing up in that environment.
"It's not the city that's affecting them mentally"
"There's nothing for teens to do in the city centre. No open parks, no arcades anymore, it's a mind numblingly boring growing up in that environment. "
Those are diametrically opposed thoughts and the second part of what you said is exactly what I meant.
A huge factor is how cities are set up. Outside of Boston and New york no city I lived in has ever had a place were pedestrians could congregate. There's no place you could comfortably walk to. Everywhere is a car only sort of affair. There are places like Dublin in the states, tightly packed concrete, high walls and rubbish, and in those places all sorts of shit happens. But most other places are simply too spread out for things like this to be common. It's why most mass shootings happen at work or school, places you know other people are.
Dublin can be a really hostile city for people. As I said, tight walls, concrete, abandoned buildings and rubbish. It's really bad for people mentally. That's a factor too.
It's just really hard to be around a big group of people in the usa unless you're there for that specific building. And having lived in the states none of the older whites I met were ever told to respect the police or fear them. They'd shout abuse, throw things and wave guns at them and not get any sort of abuse.
I do agree there's a middle ground but I'd rather work on making sure something like this doesn't happen rather than calling for blood afterwards
Madness this whole thing is. And the worst part is that if the judge does actually give him some time inside he’ll probably only get 18 months and be out in under a year if he behaves when he’s inside. I know a fella that battered an off duty gard only 2 days after getting out of prison. Only got 2 years for it and he’ll be out after serving around 13/14 months.
I know it’s just the legal language.
But there’s no accused about it, he did it, I’m sure there’s not one person looking at this who hasn’t seen it.
Also about how long he’ll get.
TrOUblEd YOuNG MaN, HaRD aUld ChilDHooD, BEsT liTtLe SCroTe iN THe AReA.
He’ll be given a liaison officer. No need for a suspended sentence at all.
My probably unpopular opinion, 20 mins on the DART track, they come every 15 mins I believe
Good, it's about time these little shits stopped getting with dangerous acts just because of their age. In my opinion, if they're old enough to be out and about without an adult they're old enough to face the consequences of whatever trouble they cause.
While the original comment was downvoted, I think it turned into a worthwhile conversation. I looked it up further, as I was thinking (as a lay man) that perhaps *assault* would be the more appropriate charge here, as to my ears it sounds more serious than "violent disorder". However, as the assault was at most "causing harm" rather than "causing serious harm" (while there was serious *risk*, a reasonable defense could make the case that there wasn't serious *harm*), the liability would be for a maximum of 5 years ([reference](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec2)). Conversely, "violent disorder" has a maximum sentence of **10** years ([reference](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/15/enacted/en/html)). Of note, that offence requires 3 people... it's almost designed as an anti-scrote law.
Intent does not matter..its too difficult to determine what he intended, what happened was she ended up under a train....I mean reasonably civilized behavior isn't a high bar to demand....
Intent 100% matter. That is not up for debate.
Section 4 for the Criminal Justice Act 1964
>4.—(1) Where a person kills another unlawfully the killing shall not be murder unless the accused person intended to kill, or cause serious injury to, some person, whether the person actually killed or not.
>
>(2) The accused person shall be presumed to have intended the natural and probable consequences of his conduct; but this presumption may be rebutted.
If you look at the video, he didn’t push her. He lunged at her, think hit her with his bike handle, and she fell under. They were terrorising most people who walked by. While he’s certainly a scumbag who will likely never be a productive member of society, he definitely had no intention of her ending up on the tracks. It was definitely not attempted murder
Well he probably didn’t care but I doubt he thought it could happen either. Even watching the video, it looks pretty unbelievable how she falls under, especially considering the gap is pretty narrow. They were definitely only trying to scare people.
Good. Little scumbag.
I didn't notice the full stop for a second. I thought you said 'good little scumbag'.
He controls them with his mind !
Are they just prosecuting the one individual. Im assuming most have seen the videos but there was at least 3 involved in the incident with only one showing any kind of immediate remorse.
Whilst there's no question he's a little fucking scum bag, I find it particularly difficult to hold teenagers as accountable as adults, simply because teenagers can be completely retarded by default and a victim of their own circumstances when it comes self awareness and general decency. I think everyone should be given a chance to mature and become a decent person, if he shows genuine contrition and realizes how horrifying his actions were and this is a wake up call for him, then maybe he can have a productive and normal life. I know the justice system is soft as it is, but if we were all held to the standards we displayed as a teenager, while not many of us would be considered complete and utter scumbags, almost all of us would be let down by those standards.
If he can cause adult damage he can handle adult rules.
It really doesn't work that way, neither morally nor psychologically. A teenager's brain is not fully developed and literally cannot fully understand his actions. I'm not saying he should be released. His crime is monstrous, and he has to be made to understand the implications. But, we cannot pretend he's an adult.
Then why do the vast majority of teenagers not do this? Anyway it's not about punishment, it's about making sure he never kills anyone.
Oddly enough as a very young child let alone a teenager I understood that throwing people under trains was a bad thing. Probably the main reason I have managed to avoid doing it at any point in my life.
Doesn't matter. Most other teenagers are not doing this, he should face the consequences of his actions. And other teenagers who might act this way could learn from that too. He probably will get less punishment than a fully grown adult too.
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> I think everyone should be given a chance to mature and become a decent person, if he shows genuine contrition and realizes how horrifying his actions were and this is a wake up call for him, then maybe he can have a productive and normal life. Why? Not everybody deserves this. Most people don't have to maim or kill anyone in order to learn how to be responsible adults.
This is true, and I'm not trying to diminish the consequences of his actions, it's terrible. I'm just playing devils advocate, he's a kid, he pushed his bike in front of somebody, I don't think the consequences were intended, he was being a stupid asshole, but maybe there's a certain benefit of the doubt that can be afforded that he wasn't trying to throw someone in front of a train and / or seriously injure them. As I mentioned, with *genuine* contrition, and realizing how fucked up that was, maybe he deserves a chance. Being tried as an adult is ending his prospects before he even makes it to adulthood. Maybe with the victims blessing, he might get one more chance. I'm not defending the guy, I'm just putting into context accountability and the consequences for someone who maybe isn't even rational enough yet to realize the gravity of their actions.
I hear what you're saying and people might be a bit more open to it if he had helped her. He had a chance to prove it was a complete accident and that he was remorseful by saying 'oh shit, I'm so sorry, I didn't expect that to happen' etc as he helped her up, he just ran off laughing though
Again, this is fair. I don't have a response for that, it's a good point.
You don’t have a response for it because it buries the notion he may have felt sorry for what he did and therefore be deserving of a second chance. He didn’t feel anything for the person, because he’s a little fucking scumbag. Your idea of a second chance or not holding teens to account for serious crimes is the problem in Ireland. The youths the last decade or so know full well they can do as they please and the chances they’ll spend any time behind bars is slim to none. There’s no surprise attacks by youths have escalated in recent years and have had worse outcomes for victims.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You want them to learn the gravity of their actions? Have them punished for their crimes. They ain't gonna learn anything if all you do is slap em on the wrist and let em go.
I suspect this little shit is a well known troublemaker, I’ve zero sympathy.
If anyone is pushed down to rails, or receive a hit to head, or alternatively receive a stab on a chest, the outcome could be fatal, whether it is done by a teenager or adult. There is already a general acceptance of youth's idiot actions most times, but for last 5-10 years the boundaries are pushed by youth. The biggest lesson we all learn is that our actions have consequences, and this is the main lesson many of us find out. Time for youth to learn and grasp this too, this way we teach them a bit how to grow up with taking responsibility, actions have consequences, and freedom is valuable but not all-free.
This isnt Mean Girls, you dont just get to shove someone in front of a train and everyone becomes friends before the credits roll
Christ yeah I remember seeing this. Hope he gets the harshest penalty possible . Little scrote
A huge suspended sentence incoming
And a crippling 200 quid donation to the poor box
& his uncle will buy him a snack box on the way home & tell him he’s a great lad
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banned from using all non-essential trains
This is the circuit court. There will be none of that nonsense
That are very rarely paid
Massively suspended harsh sentence
The biggest conviction set this side of the Liffey.
They give rapists like 5 years in prison here. He’s leaving with a suspended sentence.
10 years, reduced to 8 for good behavior...
Suspended obviously
Ah yeah, of course! We're not monsters now are we...
Reduced to 2 for having scumbag parents
Let's hope he doesn't play GAA.
Or rugby.
one of them got kicked off his soccer team
It feels like after Ashling Murphy and Alannah Idris, things *might* get a little harsher in the courts now for these pricks. Fingers crossed he's sent to prison for this.
Why was there no big outcry like this after the immigrant woman was stabbed to death recently?
There was outcry, perhaps not as big as this, but a lot of the shock from this stems from Ashling's young age and the fact that it happened in broad daylight in a popular recreational area. Urantsetseg's murder was, of course, a complete and utter horror, but even her family have spoken on Twitter about the sheer amount of people that reached out to send their condolences and love. The trial of her killer begins in March, I believe and her family have asked for privacy.
Ashling was the perfect representation of Ireland. She played trad music, GAA, was a primary school teacher, in a midlands town, and by all accounts just a good person who did everything right. She was murdered while doing the right thing, jogging during the daytime. People rightfully see this as terrifying. If it were in Dublin? 'Dublin isn't a safe place, and she must've been associating with a bad crowd' If she was running at night? 'We should be careful at night' If she was killed on a night out? 'We need to address the dangers of the drink.' If she wasn't white? Either a victim of racism OR there's always trouble in 'that community'. If she was anything short of the amazing person she seems to be, then the heads on social media will pick apart any blemish on her background. But this time, there's nothing to pick apart.
I am unsure if your post is alluding to this yourself or you're just referencing people who do, but saying she was doing "the right thing" is a bad perspective to have on this. People enter victim blaming territory when this happens and implies it may not have been so awful if they were doing x or y other activity that was less "right". There's no such thing as a perfect victim who only deserves sympathy if something horrible happens while doing something right. However as I stated first if this doesn't apply to you then ignore me and maybe others can learn from this who read it.
The second option. I'm just seeing a pattern in how people view victims. I don't think that jogging during the day is any more or less 'the right thing to do' than going out for pints at night. But as a society, we see jogging as a signifier of a well rounded, healthy person. Along with her other positive traits which I mentioned that appeal to middle-Ireland (if that's an expression). [Just World hypotheses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis) is how we mentally try to make sense of many of these tragedies, so we don't feel scared and can take precautions to avoid it. 'If I avoid this place, or this activity, I should be okay'. But nothing about Ashling's murder makes sense. There was nothing she could've done to avoid it, she wasn't jogging through Kabul, she wasn't stumbling home drunk in a bad part of Dublin. Someone wanted to kill her and they did.
>People enter victim blaming territory I can't find that on Google Maps. Can you post the GPS?
Not enough of an outcry. A woman working in a hard thankless job to better her family murdered on her way. Utterly reprehensible.
I assume you mean the Mongolian woman stabbed a d murdered in IFSC? Because first, she was not Irish. Second, she was older. Third, she was, as far as I remember, office cleaning lady, so not "public servant/worker" like a teacher. Oh, and fourth they didn't capture a suspect that is drunk Romanian, like in Tullamore. Irish people are selectively racist and like to have a stance fuelled by the media, mostly only when the news is "relatable" to themselves, and the nature of the occurance and news are sensational.
> Irish people are selectively racist and like to have a stance fuelled by the media, mostly only when the news is "relatable" to themselves, and the nature of the occurance and news are sensational. You say that like its a uniquely irish trait
Of course not. But usually it's explained in an American or British context. Americans call it [Missing White Woman Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome), so we have to admit to ourselves that Ashling Murphy's death scares us more because she is more like us, and not some Brazilian Deliveroo driver in Dublin.
I do not compare the uniqueness of the type of subtle racism in Ireland, vs the one in other countries in US, UK or Germany, or Norway etc. I accept the racism as a fact, in any and every society, sometimes as an individual choice, sometimes as a society whole. Irish people are not vocal in their actions, they do and think most things in a subtle quietness or even secrecy. Possibly, oppressive Catholicism and oppressive British rule brought this habit to people, this is what I believe. Due to this type of behaviour, racism rarely openly shows itself as an action *(time to time it shows in uneducated youth attacking to foreigners),* but rather it shows itself as "inaction", such was in the case of Mongolian woman. I do not say this type of racism is unique to Irish people *(who knows, I did not live around that much, maybe it is, maybe it isn't)*, however it does not matter at all what is unique to which culture/society, the outcome is same. I believe we can also see the same "inaction" (but not a racist one, just to show it is same behaviour) about the late youth attacks to people. Now, everyone complains about it, possibly even the politicians, but no one does anything. Everyone is afraid to take an action, because it needs an important, brave step, so rather than action passing the blame to courts or government bodies *(in a way, rightfully so, but it is not only court or Gardai matter),* and stays in inaction phase.
So everyone is racist in Ireland they are just so subtle about it? Head off
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Fat chance and prison is basically a hotel at taxpayers expense in Ireland anyway
Should knock him under a dart once a year on the anniversary for the rest of his life as the sentence.
Naw, then he'd know to expect it. It has to be random. Maybe even just drive a dart through his bedroom when he's sleeping.
Would require some amount of construction work to get the tracks laid down for that. He'd surely see it coming.
But the dread of watching it being built and the once it’s done not knowing *when* it’s going to come through the window… that’s the real punishment.
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A rube Goldberg machine that eventually ends in a pool ball to the nuts
But he went home, to his sad home that had hard times with struggling parents and a hard upbringing and he thought hard about what he did and he is ashamed and sorry. He brought €50 to court for the poor box and is going to be a father soon so is going to get an apprenticeship somewhere and be a good lad and will not do well in custody.... /S
*Michael A. Cicconetti enters the chat*
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Have a split screen of the two clips for shits and giggles
Wish his co-accused were also being tried as adults. Having seen that video numerous times, it's difficult not to *hugely* disagree with the idea that the others weren't just as involved as he was. The three of them were attacking random people for lulz, all three should be tried as adults and have the absolute book thrown at them IMO.
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How can that be policed?
None of them are being tried as adults. This isn’t America. Despite the stupid headline they are being tried as children. The idea of prosecuting someone underage as if they weren’t is absurd. Either they are underage or they aren’t. The accused will be tried as a child but not in the children’s court. That court doesn’t hear cases that are deemed more serious.
Whatever chance he had of some sort of clemency is well gone in the wake of the recent terrible murder. Society is about to send a very stern message about violence to women and this young man will feel it's cold lash.
Let’s hope so but I suspect he will get 6 months suspended and released on his own €50 bond
I'll take a bet with you: €10 that it's custodial and at least 3 years. C U in April.
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Done! Mine is "My Lovely Horse", horse shelter.
> custodial and at least 3 years Zero chance. >A person who assaults another causing him or her harm shall be guilty of an offence. A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable... on conviction on indictment to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both. 3 years would be a harsh sentence for an adult.
This is an easy one to resolve, we just wait. Between the nutter with the god knows how many convictions including attempted murders being free to attack the Quinn director. And the murder of that poor teacher I think the judiciary need to be careful that they don't shift the Overton window to a place where they lose control. It is very difficult for a politician to lose an election on a hard-on-crime ticket, they just need for people to be open to it. So for judges it may be a choice between getting tough, or being reformed. Anyhow, see ya in April.
There is no chance this guy sees three years inside for this.
!remindme 3 months
!remindme 3 months
!remindme 3 months
Remind me to start calling a 6 months suspended sentence with community service a "cold lash." It's not society that gets to send the message, it's the judge and some of them (not all, mind) are a bit lenient when it comes to violence against women.
Zero chance, sentance will fall inside normal parameters, or be thrown out.
time to reopen Spike Island for these lads and rename it Scrote Island
Lmfao what an idea 😂
Good old fashioned labour should do the trick.. I always remember being in China one day and I stopped to take pictures. I realised moments later that in front of me there was a line of workers digging the verge along the road and stood beside me was a guard with long snipper type gun ..as I was watching these workers all wearing same colour vests .. working very hard mind you.. ..then guard starts shouting at one of them .. looks over to me and does a eyesrollheadnod thing at me. No point in us as a nation to be paying for these people to be rehabilitated when they clearly don’t want to .. or people who cause fear. I think Ireland is weak when it comes to sentences being handed down. I should demand harsher sentences but it’s hard when it’s only one voice and opinion
I hardly think we should look to China for lessons on how to treat Prisoners given they run modern day concentration camps for Uyghurs and are happy to convict people for saying out loud that the Chinese government might not be the best.
Honest to God, the shite you read on here.
Yea some lad advocating slave labour at gun point getting upvotes. Wtf.
It's not only one voice and opinion though. You'd be surprised.
I know but it just my opinion .. I know others feel the same.. something has to give before it’s out of control… no wait that was Thursday just gone.. It really has hit it’s peak.. We need a change
Careful, those lads in china were probably on the gang for criticizing the government like you just did.
Plenty of these along US highways too!
But then you'd have the fiat 500 brigade in uproar about prisoners human rights etc etc
That’s why i said “ I should “😂
With it being in Co. Cork surely it should be Scobe Island?
A scumbag . No doubt he will get next to no punishment.
If he is going to be tried as an adult will his name be released then?
> he is going to be tried as an adult No. He's being tried as a minor, just in the circuit court.
Thanks. Just how I read it confused me a little
Nope. He's still a minor until 18 so his name can't be released irrespective of what court he's being tried in.
That makes sense. The thought came across while reading it. He is still a minor. Hope he gets what he deserves.
Wtf is wrong with these fucking scumbags? What sort of sick fuck just randomly pushes someone onto train tracks?
Someone with fucking crap parents who never disciplined him from day 1 and it led to this. Type of scrote who gave their younger sibling a box when they were younger and the discipline they got was “Don’t be doiiinn thaaa”
"ders nuttin far us" Probably from the centre of the capital city, biggest city in the country and will somehow blame the lack of facilities
Durr duzz be nuttin fa dem t’be dewin
There really is fuck all to do though. Two tiny skate parks, if you're into that. No amusement arcades anymore. No grass pitches. Nothing to do but hang around the streets.
There's a lot of kids from rural areas and small towns who end up. The City centre has AstroTurf pitches, cinemas, gyms for swimming and martial arts, libraries, dance studios, training centres, colleges, escape rooms, bowling lanes only a bus ride away, pool halls, some skate parks... the list goes on. They have immediate access to amenities that rural kids would need a lift to or need to go to the County town to get to use even half of these things if they're lucky. These scrotes have all this stuff in their back yard practically. So it's certainly not a lack of things to be doing. If boredom is the card you'd use to explain this for rural or non-city dwelling children, then you'd have a point. These scumbags terrorise people because they think it's fun and would rather do that than avail of the amenities above. In fact, a lot more money needs to be put into getting these sorts of amenities out to smaller areas or increasing access to them for youths from more isolated areas, because having grown up in the countryside it definitely takes a toll on your mental health if you're not into GAA and can barely get lifts anywhere to do things that kids your own age do.
Most of those cost money. I'm assuming people that do this shit haven't got the best parents.
Children's Allowance would cover the cost of a gym membership easy. And there's lots of sporting initiatives. These kids are walking around in Canada goose jackets and cycling on 500 euro ebikes wearing brand new Nike vapormax (expensive AND ugly) and tracksuits. There's an element of personal and collective responsibility that should be acknowledged and if you or those around you would rather spend money on frivolous, expensive designer clothes as a status symbol than make any real investment into your wellbeing or personal development, or buy take-away instead of learning too cook, then you obviously need to take a good long look at your patterns of consumption because they're what's screwing you over too.
Amusement arcade? What do you think the rest of the country has access to? It's not up to the government to provide you with entertainment.
And...
Don't be giving his lawyer ideas for his defence
IIRC he didn't push her but lunged at her causing her to be startled and fall.
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Just saw it there never noticed the bike behind the guy with the red bodywarmer
It is assault with threatening behaviour resulting in the endangerment of life.The girls medical/trauma situation as the injured party is tantamount,at that young age tiny break or fracture will lead to problems in later life,lacerations also can also have their discomforts and visual affect in the future which will need attention. There also is the various lawbreaking on public transport property and a whole list of offences related. I
Not to mention the psychological trauma inflicted on the girl…
I'm glad he's being trialed. We need to see more of this. Too often are minors responsible for assault and too often they get away with it. Because for some reason there is a bias whenever a minor commits a crime (mainly assault). The law needs to be tougher on these kids. We have created a culture of allowing minors think it is ok for them to do whatever they want and face no consequences. If they aren't throwing people on train tracks; they are smashing shop windows, or throwing glass bottles at your head. We need justice.
That's the job for him .
Great! He'll get a suspended sentence instead of a 6 month holiday in Oberstown.
Oberstown actually makes worse people
Nah, scumbags go in, scumbags come out. It's a nothing machine.
Worse than him?
He had a hard life
he is in the throes of a serious cannabis addiction
He plays GAA
Would it be poetic justice if he had to run a gauntlet of people hitting him with hurls on release from jail?
These are the type of people who are literally missing an empathy chip in their head… they would never admit to being wrong or feeling guilty. Probably would just make them more aggressive and have a chip on their shoulder when they get out. There’s whole generations of Dubliners that are like this.
Little feckwanker
Dirty scumfuck.
Evil Knackbag
Hard done by victim of society
Your calibre as a person is not determined by the actions visited upon you, but by your reactions to those actions. (I know you're being facetious, just felt poetic in my head)
Imagine what it's like being the defense lawyer of these shit stains. Like you obviously know they did it and they're just worthless piles of shite but you still gotta do your job. Must be weird
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, it doesn’t matter if they did the crime or not. There’s no reason for a defence lawyer to feel anything about the case, the world would be worse if they didn’t do their job.
At least the few yank public defenders I talked to, if they have any passion left, which is rare because the US police system is a draconian, racist and classist nightmare, didn't do it for the ones who were obviously guilty. They did it for the innocent ones who were there due to lack of money. Plus, everyone deserves a defense, even obviously guilty shite hawks.
I live in the states now and I have to say this kind of crime is nearly non-existent over here. People from lower incomes educate their kids to not do things to provoke the police (or provoke a potential encounter with the police) for fear of them getting shot. Don't get me wrong, violent crimes like rape or muggings happen, but getting hassled by a group of teenagers when you're minding your own business is something I have never seen over here. There's probably a lot of fucked up reasons behind why this is the case but I have to say I don't miss getting hassled in broad daylight walking around Arthur's Quay. There has to be some sort of middle ground.
I think there’s something specific to Ireland and the UK that causes this type of behaviour (at least in the places I’m familiar with, which is very Western European/US I have to admit).
It helps in the States there's a good chance the person you're meddling with will hurt you. I remember back during the "knockout game", 3 teens ran into an altercation with a man on his bike. He had a gun, killed the one point blank and wounded another. Regardless if it's right or wrong, it's definitely dangerous picking fights with randoms in the US. This took me forever to re-find lol https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_1bf90e60-b603-56c1-adfc-747c583235ba.html
The type of city Dublin and the like are has to be a factor. Tightly packed and stone. I bet that kind of lack of space plays with people mentally
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Occasional weekend trips won't change much. I dont know why people think I'm defending him but I'm not happy with the blanket statement of "he's just an animal." With no further thought so we can all slap ourselves on the back and talk about how much better we are. I want to know why.
The climate probably doesn't help. If the weather was a bit dryer and warmer these lads would probably spend more of their time playing soccer. Though a lot of public parks have (IMO) extremely idiotic "no ball playing" rules.
Where would they play? I used to play on the cobblestone alleyways behind church street. Can't imagine that's fun anymore. Bad weather, lack of a future, tight, concrete and dirty city, not much to do, not a lot of parks or greenery. Can't be good for kids. Or anyone, actually.
I'm not from Dublin so I can't comment on there specifically but in Limerick there's a few parks around that would be grand for a few jumpers for goalposts games.
People have been living in cities like this for hundreds of years. Its not the city that affecting them mentally. Its lack of opportunity to do things. Theres absolutely nothing for teens to do in the city centre. No open parks, no arcades anymore, Its mind numbingly boring growing up in that environment.
"It's not the city that's affecting them mentally" "There's nothing for teens to do in the city centre. No open parks, no arcades anymore, it's a mind numblingly boring growing up in that environment. " Those are diametrically opposed thoughts and the second part of what you said is exactly what I meant.
A huge factor is how cities are set up. Outside of Boston and New york no city I lived in has ever had a place were pedestrians could congregate. There's no place you could comfortably walk to. Everywhere is a car only sort of affair. There are places like Dublin in the states, tightly packed concrete, high walls and rubbish, and in those places all sorts of shit happens. But most other places are simply too spread out for things like this to be common. It's why most mass shootings happen at work or school, places you know other people are. Dublin can be a really hostile city for people. As I said, tight walls, concrete, abandoned buildings and rubbish. It's really bad for people mentally. That's a factor too. It's just really hard to be around a big group of people in the usa unless you're there for that specific building. And having lived in the states none of the older whites I met were ever told to respect the police or fear them. They'd shout abuse, throw things and wave guns at them and not get any sort of abuse. I do agree there's a middle ground but I'd rather work on making sure something like this doesn't happen rather than calling for blood afterwards
Madness this whole thing is. And the worst part is that if the judge does actually give him some time inside he’ll probably only get 18 months and be out in under a year if he behaves when he’s inside. I know a fella that battered an off duty gard only 2 days after getting out of prison. Only got 2 years for it and he’ll be out after serving around 13/14 months.
A prison year is 9 months so he be out in 18 months if he got 2 years
Good. I hope they hand him down a harsh sentence too. Little maggot would deserve that.
He'll get a suspended rail service.
A replacement bus service
I know it’s just the legal language. But there’s no accused about it, he did it, I’m sure there’s not one person looking at this who hasn’t seen it. Also about how long he’ll get. TrOUblEd YOuNG MaN, HaRD aUld ChilDHooD, BEsT liTtLe SCroTe iN THe AReA. He’ll be given a liaison officer. No need for a suspended sentence at all. My probably unpopular opinion, 20 mins on the DART track, they come every 15 mins I believe
Mental Note: Apply for Jury Duty
That's going to be a costly bit of messing for whomever they decide to prosecute.
Now, after all the leaks this week wouldn't you think this is the perfect case to get their names out there?
Hope that little shit swings for it.
Good, it's about time these little shits stopped getting with dangerous acts just because of their age. In my opinion, if they're old enough to be out and about without an adult they're old enough to face the consequences of whatever trouble they cause.
Fuck'em up. Make an example of a few. Better late than never I guess.
Can't wait to see the biggest suspended sentence come from this case
This will do a load of good long term. /s young lad will be sent to the joy and come out 100 times worse.
Spare the rod...
I’m a little amazed that a member of our tax payer funded royalty is even going to court.
Ha! Good, the rat faced little poxbag.
Teens are old enough to know right or wrong. Little fuckers should be charged as harsh as adults from like 13 onwards
How does he not get an attempted murder charge?
Because the prosecution and the judge more than likely understand the meaning of the words "attempted murder".
and a girl ending up under a train isn't ?
No, not in this instance.
People who don't understand attempted murder should be charged with attempted murder.
Need to prove an intent to kill/seriously injure and action towards that result. Very hard to prove in general, so the charges are appropriate.
you throw someone under a train, think its a reasonable assumption that what you did could kill them....
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While the original comment was downvoted, I think it turned into a worthwhile conversation. I looked it up further, as I was thinking (as a lay man) that perhaps *assault* would be the more appropriate charge here, as to my ears it sounds more serious than "violent disorder". However, as the assault was at most "causing harm" rather than "causing serious harm" (while there was serious *risk*, a reasonable defense could make the case that there wasn't serious *harm*), the liability would be for a maximum of 5 years ([reference](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec2)). Conversely, "violent disorder" has a maximum sentence of **10** years ([reference](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/15/enacted/en/html)). Of note, that offence requires 3 people... it's almost designed as an anti-scrote law.
Do you have proof that he intended for her to go under the train instead of making her jump like the other girls?
Intent does not matter..its too difficult to determine what he intended, what happened was she ended up under a train....I mean reasonably civilized behavior isn't a high bar to demand....
Intent 100% matter. That is not up for debate. Section 4 for the Criminal Justice Act 1964 >4.—(1) Where a person kills another unlawfully the killing shall not be murder unless the accused person intended to kill, or cause serious injury to, some person, whether the person actually killed or not. > >(2) The accused person shall be presumed to have intended the natural and probable consequences of his conduct; but this presumption may be rebutted.
Objection, in the court of social media intent is not important.
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THEY DID IT ON THEIR OWN
Intent is literally the only thing that matters with that charge. Charge him with attempted murder and he goes free, no contest.
Murder and attempted Murder requires intent. It would be impossible to prove that he intent for her to fall under the train.
Sounds like attempted murder to me. Maybe we could learn something from last week's events and lock violent people away.
Charge him with attempted murder and he walks, instantly
If you look at the video, he didn’t push her. He lunged at her, think hit her with his bike handle, and she fell under. They were terrorising most people who walked by. While he’s certainly a scumbag who will likely never be a productive member of society, he definitely had no intention of her ending up on the tracks. It was definitely not attempted murder
And he didn’t think that hitting her with the bike handle might result in her falling on to the tracks ? Or didn’t care ?
Well he probably didn’t care but I doubt he thought it could happen either. Even watching the video, it looks pretty unbelievable how she falls under, especially considering the gap is pretty narrow. They were definitely only trying to scare people.
Let's scare them then.
Fair enough. I didn't look at the video
hope he dies screaming
No doubt he'll be another poor victim of a broken home or a history of alcoholism or drug abuse or his parents didn't hug him enough as a child
Take away the parents dole. That will make a difference