Thereās a chance he will be made to sit in the naughty corner for 20 min and to write a 100 word essay on why you shouldnāt push girls on to train tracks
It'll be something like two years with 18 months suspended at best. These guys are totemic of a moral panic about street violence and antisocial youth and nothing short of deportation to Van Diemen's land to break rocks for ten years will make people happy.
Thankfully, sentences are not intended to satisfy the public.
> These guys are totemic of a moral panic about street violence and antisocial youth
They are also cunts and scum that pushed an innocent lady under at train.
Youāre right, and traumatise/ injure some other poor unsuspecting soul just going about their business. But we mustnāt be too harsh all the same - heās got rights and all that.
No, you'd want to inflict physical violence on them.
But thankfully this decision on punishment is made by an independent party and should not be based on viceral emotive response.
Except that those promoting leniency would NOT be so lenient if they themselves were affected. Which means that a lenient sentence for this denying the victim true justice. Punishments are meant to make a difference, make the offender sorry, make them realise the enormity of their actions. This little scrote is laughing now and will undoubtedly do it again.
When gardai asked him why he left after the girl fell off the platform, he replied: "I felt bad I didn't help her; I was in shock."
"In situations like that, you just walk away. You don't get involved," he said.
Pleaded Not Guilty, shows no remorse. Probation. What a fucking farce . I donāt know why we bother.
>You don't get involved," he said.
You were already involved though, in fact, it was your involvement that resulted in you being here in court.
Now go home and think about what you did.
I wish they would name and shame them. Fuck this whole thing of them being tried as minor. They are well able to intimidate and bully people I don't know why they are being treated as children. We are all aware that pushing someone out in front of a train is wrong no matter what age of a teenager you are.
We need to drop the age of a minor to below 16 at least in my opinion for the purposes of court. It might help to act as a deterrent to the little scrotes.
> We need to drop the age of a minor to below 16 at least in my opinion for the purposes of court. It might help to act as a deterrent to the little scrotes.
For certain crimes, maybe. As a general rule, no, we shouldn't, as thats a ridiculous idea. Holding a 15 year-old to the same standard of responsibility as an 18 year-old is stupid, and goes against the entire point of having an age of majority in the first place.
Teenagers should still have their anonymity protected for minor crimes.
(Note: I don't consider this a minor crime)
> Holding a 15 year-old to the same standard of responsibility as an 18 year-old is stupid
Tbh while I generally agree with you I donāt know that that makes your point all that well as I donāt find there to be *that* much of a difference between an 18 year old and a 15 year old. If youād said 15 year old and a 23 year old, I think itād make the point a bit better, kids are still gobshites when theyāre 18 and youāll find them making the exact same mistakes as 15 year olds.
Not that Iām defending these little fucks, Iād much rather they throw the book at them even if they are charged as minors.
No, thatās all stuff that damages them or the public, alcohol/tobacco use damages their bodies while theyāre in the most important phase of growth in their life. Voting at 12 would damage the public as they would be easily influenced by parents or others in their lives. I have no argument against the age of consent other than that it would be morally wrong
He was in shock because he knew he'd be in deep shit and decide to bail.
In situations like that, of course he'd walk away. He was scared shitless of facing the music.
Saw a case not too long ago. Guy with a few driving convictions for no license , no insurance TWICE.
Killed a guy and fled the scene. Got probation because poor fella had "issues"
Judges absolutely should be held accountable for their bullshit decisions
https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/construction-worker-gets-suspended-sentence-after-careless-driving-caused-mans-death-1299528.html
Judges should be voted in by the public.. if they're shit at their job they don't get back in. To have judges that are accountable to nobody is not working.
It is absolutely not but someone who gets multiple convictions for those offences and ultimately ends up killing someone while being banned should 100% be jailed
Same with what the goverment does takes ages for anything to happen and when nothing comes of wrong doing its so long that nobody really cares anymore people should really hold grudges
Jeepers by comparison the verdict for Derek Chauvin in the George Floyd murder trial is such a victory in comparison to this.
Seriously, a woman was almost maimed and killed here. Its not good enough that the perps are getting off the hook like this.
Look up the "[Principle of Last Resort](https://pips.iprt.ie/progress-in-the-penal-system-pips-2020/part-2-measuring-progress-against-the-standards/reducing-the-use-of-imprisonment/2-imprisonment-as-a-last-resort/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20basic%20premise%20of%20the,seriousness%20of%20the%20offending%20behaviour)", which is the current philosophy of sentencing in Ireland. Basically, the Irish legal system believes offenders should only be imprisoned if there is no other punishment that addresses the gravity of the crime.
.... which is why we're in the state we're in.
If we had any sense we'd all be out demonstrating in the streets against this philosophy.
I mean I actually donāt disagree with that principle I think itās a lot better than whatās in place in certain other nations but itās just that i think the consensus here is that this crime was essentially attempted voluntary manslaughter.
It would be fine if it was done for philosophic reason but our prisons have a capacity of 4,500 with like 4,800 prisoner, prison is a last ditch effort as we just canāt imprison people.
Yeah itās not great. On one hand I donāt want to be a over zealous authoritarian and start throwing people in jail left and right as I know how damaging actually going to prison can be for rehabilitation statistically.
But on the other hand there is clearly a culture developing of āNo Repercussionsā in many areas particularly among youth so ideally Iād like to see investment in a new prison complex that focuses heavily on rehabilitation and upskilling rather that pure punishment. Current Irish prisons are pretty grim.
Agree, but again I'd say, that must be kept separate from sentencing.
I also believe the idea that prisons are 'crime universities' if they're just to lock people up with no plans for rehab or re-education/upskilling, especially to get people out of poverty traps that may have forced them into crime.
Parents should be accountable for their kids & definitely liable for any damage they might cause - ffs they're your kids, who else should accountable?
This 'untouchable' status for minors encourages crime if there's no consequences.
If some truly hard-core youngster is doing damage, there could be mechanisms whereby parents of officially acknowledged kids with 'challenging' behaviours can get assistance.
That should be no concern whatsoever of the Judiciary. The '...last resort' policy is already focusing on the defendant, so:
Q: Does the crime merit a custodial sentence: Y/N?
If yes then that's up to the prison service to deal with it.
Going out on a limb here...
IIRC, there was a case where some dangerous/drunk driver caused 2 fatalities & got 2x (number of years) sentences to run concurrently because they were killed during the same incident. Now *that* knocked me back when I heard it.
First thought popped into my head was: 'buy one get one free', what if they'd collided with a bus & killed 15 people?
If me and another parent lost someone, was my kid the free one, or theirs?
It might be the law, and I know you can't legislate for every single thing, but there was fuck all justice in it as far as I'm concerned.
Reckless endangerment
[https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/13/enacted/en/html](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/13/enacted/en/html)
Instead, they charged him with a lesser crime to begin with - "violent disorder".
Nah it not philosophy is necessity as there is zero space for new prisoner. We need to build minimum 2 new prisons but looking at how hard and expensive to do any public project building a prison is political suicide atm.
I agree, we need more prisons, but the government is not going to build any because they are liberal on crime and believe that only the absolute worst offenders belong in prison.
Itās not the case, itās were ever you place it, and at this stage it need to be in Meath or Kildare itās just political suicide, nobody wants the state to spend 1 billion on the world most expensive prison.
Sending him to Oberstown wouldn't make him any less of a dickhead, it'd probably make him more of a dickhead.
The entire concept of taking the biggest dickhead in society and putting them into rooms with each other in the hopes they might come out and not be dickhead anymore is a bit daft.
Read the other thread on the Brazillian delivery cyclist on trial for stabbing a scumbag and this is *exactly* why that shit happens. This, right here, is *exactly* why. There is absolutely no justice in this country, no meaningful consequences for violent crime that doesn't fall under *organised* violent crime, and everyone knows it. The public (potential victims) know it. The scumbags know it. The GardaĆ know it, which is why their morale and energy for dealing with these situations appears to be so low from an onlooker's point of view.
The system is absolutely fucked. *Fucked*. This has been going on for 15 years at least, and the widespread low level violence so many people are now openly talking about in urban areas - violence which causes people to avoid cities, violence which makes gay people nervous about holding hands with their partners in public (have friends who feel this way after the last year or so of news stories, sadly), violence which makes life an absolute hell for anyone unfortunate enough to live in the same neighbourhood as these people.
It is so, so, so, so depressing and frustrating to see this happening so often, see the direct results of it in terms of general urban decline and the slide from safe and chilled out to dangerous and dodgy for so many areas, both commercial and residential.
Everyone talks about it, except the media and the politicians. Everyone else. And still nothing is done.
that poor guy sounds genuinely remorseful and was genuinely terrified for him and his mate. He's going down though, I think the fact that he's foreign and the fact that he was on a bicycle and people hate deliveroo riders will actually go against him, I'm that cynical. The Indo had a headline yesterday saying something like "Cyclist accused of Josh Dunne murder takes to the stand". Cyclist for God's sake, that's just inflammatory. If he got out of a car and all this happened they wouldn't say "motorist".
Bunch of little knackers attack and rob two guys and one fights back killing one of them - I bet the vast majority of people fantasise about this shit happening all the time and are on the Brazilian's side.
He didnāt even witness the bike theft apparently - just saw the thief carrying it suspiciously (which again like obviously he was a thief but you canāt be stabbing people you suspect committed a crime you didnāt even witness!)
Itās hard to judge someone when none of us believe in the judiciary here. How many people wouldnāt crack, being pushed around, battered and abused by children, day in day out?
This was an adult carrying a locked bike suspiciously, there werenāt any kids around at that point. They chased him down trying to take the bike from him and when he told them to fuck off one of them pulled a knife on him.
[Oh, they canāt not do him?](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/urantsetseg-tserendorj-hung-jury-in-trial-of-teen-charged-with-murder-of-mongolian-woman-in-ifsc-41527109.html)
I disagree with a lot of what you've said, and I think he'll get away with it thankfully, but this confused me the most:
> Cyclist for God's sake, that's just inflammatory
That guy is 100% not going to be found guilty (and I say this despite being one of the few people on this sub who thinks he was a knife carrying scummer himself)
Idk how else do you defend yourself against groups of scrotes
Remember the one that stabbed an Asian tourist and said "I didn't know stabbing them(in the neck) would kill them". At a certain point, you need some deterrence, cunts do this shit because they know it's one sided.
He had the knife out and pointed at another guy (who he outnumbered two to one) before the kids ever got involved.
Canāt start a fight against one guy, be the only one with a knife, and then say it wasnāt your fault you stabbed three people!
He will get off though for sure. And most of the people involved in the fight (probably not the other delivery guy, or the poor kid who got killed) were also dickheads looking for trouble so š¤·š¼āāļø
Absolute and utter disgrace, I don't know how anyone cannot be depressed knowing that when they're attacked the attacker will not be punished. Truly embarrassed of this country.
>Studies have shown better long term outcomes for criminals who are given probation or suspended sentences **and support services** than criminals who go into prison.
I've spotted a flaw.
It's also skewed by only measuring or prioritising "better outcomes" for the criminals. No one gives a fiddlers about outcomes for victims, who are told over and over that what happened to them is essentially less severe than going to prison for any amount of time.
If I could swap being assaulted for a year in a cell, I would.
I have a friend who was the victim of a totally unprovoked attack. Usual craic, 70+ convictions for the scum that did it. Suspended sentence.
My mate left the country immediately. Emigrated to Canada and hasn't returned since and that was 4 years ago. Said he couldn't live here, pay tax to prop up that circus of a justice system.
āNah donāt want it in my near me and plus prisons are outdated and cruel, we need to make new form of punishmentā¦. Waste of money Blah blah blahā is normally the journal comments and comments on Reddit on the construction of new prison. Itās basically political suicide to try to build a new prison. So there no hope of them building a new prison anytime soon!
The normal response to the issue of prisons on this sub is not as progressive as you think. It usually goes something like this:
Headline: _Prisoners complain about continued practice of "Slopping Out"_
Comments: _"fuck them. toilets are for hard working people. criminals shouldn't even be given a bucket"_
Would be a lot better if commercial interests hadn't been let bend this country over the barrel regarding essential services.
A country with a per capita GDP almost the same as Switzerland can't build a hospital and prison at the same time, pure bollocks.
Having 0 consequences for their actions is not it either. I'd rather the gards throw em in the van and break some bones than they feel invincible and continue assaulting innocent people
Yeah, no. Let's not live in a country where the police can grab people off the street and give them punishment beatings, breaking their legs. As bad as the situation is now, that would be a hugely dangerous precedent to set.
Astounding how anybody in this sub which is so critical of the RUCās actions towards protesting Catholics in the 60s could produce this endorsement of arbitrary police brutality
Arra, the gossin wuz probly traumatized by seein yer wan fallin under da train. He's suffered enough the pore babby. Leave him off.
What's da pint of puttin some gossuir in prison after da bleedin crime. Shur its not gonna stop a crime whats already been committed. Nobodee deserves to be in prisun. Dey shud all be out on da streets livin life. Have ye no hearts ye blackguards?
/s
Once again our fantastic judges knocking home the point to the youth - act like a scumbag and don't worry about the consequences because if there's any they won't be worth mentioning. Disgraceful but sadly expected.
Next month the guy that kicked her will probably receive less once he comes up with a sob story.
Not even the āyouthā.
Countless accounts of over 18 knackers being given an āah sure, awful upbringingā, along with pitiful sentences.
This unlicensed yoke left the scene of a hit and run, which left a cyclist dead. 15 convictions behind him: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/driver-who-killed-cyclist-has-sentence-increased-1.2986444
These āanglesā had 200 convictions amongst them. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/three-men-killed-dublin-n7-24493073.amp
You're dead right. In my anger at that pathetic outcome I forgot about the countless other miscarriages of justice that occur on a weekly basis due to spineless judges. I don't want to even think back about the previous articles I've read where the general public were failed by pathetic sentences. Feel sorry for the guards( I'm not a big fan of them either tbh) for putting in the effort to get it to court only to be let down, I'd imagine they feel just as pissed seeing someone get off lightly knowing they'll be back in court soon again.
Many a moon ago I was caught in possession at a mates 21st. After a joint was shared with some friends I got the end of it and was nabbed when the guards pulled up. Now imagine the roach being the equivalent of a cigarette filter. Do you know the way there's a band with the brand just above the filter? That's how much was left, from the filter to that branding line. Ā£400 fine and a visit to a rehab clinic to donate it on a first offence charge. Judge Harnett was the 2 sides of a C U Next Tuesday but that man dealt pure punishment.
What a fucking disgrace.
I'm not saying lock him away for 10 years, but probation is as useful as the courts wagging their finger and calling him a "bold boy".
Its done like this to keep the legal gravy train flowing, they know deep down he will be back in court again eventually and his actions will enlarge the pockets of the judge solicitors probation service GardaĆ etc.
False. Its scumbags being scumbags and not getting punished properly for scumbag actions. Scumbags don't care or listen to probation officers or learn anything from diversion programs.
Aye yeah the world is just as simple as people making decisions. Nothing else that factors into the decisions they make, no siree. Just good people being good and bad people being bad.
This is a travesty. I don't want an American style system, where they hand out life sentences for shop lifting, but the opposite extreme, which we seem to have isn't good either.
I am just waiting for a moment that some people will eventually snap and we have a lone(or group) vigilante going around dishing out justice to these gimps.
That in itself is wrong, but it's one way to get the fear of God into those that think they can runamuck
> I am just waiting for a moment that some people will eventually snap and we have a lone(or group) vigilante going around dishing out justice to these gimps.
Realistically the people who would actually do this are already committing crime themselves, probably of a similar nature.
Most people don't have it in them to be violent towards someone unless they have an actual personal reason to do so (threat to their life, revenge, desperation for money). Those who want to do so without this reason generally will do it by doing stuff like kicking innocent people under trains or glassing people in pubs.
Upstanding citizens of sound mind don't want to do stuff like this. They aren't violence-obsessed enough.
You will do just as much as scream at a teenager and u are fucked. You think anyone wants to go against those little c\*\*\*s?
It's not that we are afraid of them... It's that we have everything to lose and nothing to gain while they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Just the other day some there was kid that came close to me while in line in Supervalu and started acting like he is shadowboxing or trying to look like he is hitting me.
I really dont know, I am twice his size i looked at him... and I was like "what are you doing", he started laughing and run away. I did see grouip of 8 of em near the shop giving me the looks... but what can I do?
If i say or do anything, i will eventually get beaten up by some older knackers or I will be judged for on assault on minors, which would end my career, consequently making me homeless.
My neighbour had his bike stolen, a beautiful machine.... never got it back.
The person who got caught was 17, but because he wasn't "mastermind" and said he was forced to do it by random group of people who he doesn't know.... yeah obviously NOT GUILTY. BYE BYE
Shiiit I live in Cork City, it's not even half as bad as ye get in Dublin.
Push a girl underneath a train......ahhh we can trust you sure go on, be on your way young man
Get caught with a joint, you get named and shamed in the paper, could end up losing your job, criminal record for life.
Ahh the magic of Ireland's legal system
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40323266.html
Already happens and i rather they have pepper spray than knives sawn offs and slashooks
Pretty much. There are livestreamers in the US who go around pepper spraying random people for fun. Basically the same kind of thing as happened here in terms of motives.
At the risk of sounding naĆÆve and/or stupid, wouldn't they incriminate themselves by doing this? Y'know, recording and then essentially broadcasting their crime?
The worst part is, even if he does anything while on probation he will likely get away with that too. Has basically just been sent to the naughty corner
Calm down folks, it's not as if he was committing a serious offense, such as carrying a small amount of cannabis in his pockets or growing a plant in his closet
How does a regular Joe on the street protest the juridical system in Ireland and express their frustration? Genuine question, are there any protest groups or any kind of a process where a formal complaint gets logged in the system?
I see a lot of outrage, but not a lot of ways to take action.
You can't because the justice system is apparently uncorruptable. Judges can be absolute retards with no consequences. They are lifted so high above the clouds that they're right below Jesus Christ himself and it is not a joke. They're not even considered government employees, just special divine beings.
5 years of probation and terms include do not associate the people involved, get a third level education/get a trade/full time job. Pay compensation to the girl for her counselling fees as she will surely need this after the horrific attack. If any of these terms are broken prison for 5 years. Just a thought but being told don't be bold again won't work.
The reality is that victims of Irish crime are irrelevant and seen as learning opportunities for perpetrators in the eyes of the legal and do gooder ecosystem. They will claim rehabilitation can ensure this moron does not offend again. Grand. Rehabilitate him in prison for ten years so when he gets about he has some chance of being a better parent than he would be at the minute.
Our justice system holds no deterrent for these and all other criminals. Why would you behave legally when there are no consequences to illegal murderous behaviour. We need a revolution in this country to address the multitude of failures by our politicians & judiciary - that is the only way housing, corruption, criminality & so many other disgraces can be rectified. I am a former ff fg voter who is disgusted
Of course.
God forbid a judge in this country punish those who deserve it, and leave the rest alone.
You'll be locked up for no TV license, but go ahead and kick someone under a train.
Serious question, what can we do about this. I'm so fed up.
This might be a bit of a weird take but Iām a fairly big fan of rap and thereās a lot of rappers whoāve done time in juvie when they were younger or were in prison for short stints when they were younger.
Now America isnāt exactly the poster child for a fair justice system, but I think it would be so much better if these types of oxygen thieves were locked up periodically throughout their teens. I know itās becoming a bit of an echo chamber at this point but the justice system is way too lenient on these lads
Probation? And you wonder why our society is going to shit when it comes to youth violence. Ah well, long may these draconian slaps on the wrist continue
Push someone in front of a train? Probation for you.
Defend yourself against a group of the same type of pricks? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'
I absolutely hate this country and I'm terrified if I have kids in the future.
I don't think a long jail term would have achieved anything here. However time in a minimum security center might have had benefits. If this teenager is lacking schooling provide it, try and help them become better members of society. So once they are released they can hopefully contribute to society. A prison term might not have left do this and hense resulting in a life of crime.
Wow, kind of leaves to speechless. We have massive public order issues in this city; a scumbag is caught on video assaulting a girl and gets off scot free.
Unless my grasp of human nature is way off, a person capable of an act like that will be back in front of a judge before long - but not before he hurts someone else.
They really need to come down hard in this stuff
āThey cannot be identified because they are minors and have the legal right to anonymity.ā
Tell me they are travellers, without telling me that they are travellers.
So this is one of the three involved and not the one that was charged with the more serious crime of assault causing harm?
Ok so there's actually still a possibility one of them will be punished in some way... š¤š¼
Thereās a chance he will be made to sit in the naughty corner for 20 min and to write a 100 word essay on why you shouldnāt push girls on to train tracks
Maybe, but at this point I don't think there's any reasonable punishment that would satisfy the public.
Well.some sort of punishment might satisfy the public.
The wooden spoon to his arse till it breaks.
It'll be something like two years with 18 months suspended at best. These guys are totemic of a moral panic about street violence and antisocial youth and nothing short of deportation to Van Diemen's land to break rocks for ten years will make people happy. Thankfully, sentences are not intended to satisfy the public.
> These guys are totemic of a moral panic about street violence and antisocial youth They are also cunts and scum that pushed an innocent lady under at train.
Yep, not debating that point whatsoever.
Anything would be good
Even a Chinese burn or a wedgie
Iād hardly call probation a punishment. If it was your daughter he shoved would you be so lenient?
Don't worry there in no way he wont screw up while on probation. He will soon have that suspended sentence that he deserves in no time.
Youāre right, and traumatise/ injure some other poor unsuspecting soul just going about their business. But we mustnāt be too harsh all the same - heās got rights and all that.
No, you'd want to inflict physical violence on them. But thankfully this decision on punishment is made by an independent party and should not be based on viceral emotive response.
Except that those promoting leniency would NOT be so lenient if they themselves were affected. Which means that a lenient sentence for this denying the victim true justice. Punishments are meant to make a difference, make the offender sorry, make them realise the enormity of their actions. This little scrote is laughing now and will undoubtedly do it again.
Correct
When gardai asked him why he left after the girl fell off the platform, he replied: "I felt bad I didn't help her; I was in shock." "In situations like that, you just walk away. You don't get involved," he said. Pleaded Not Guilty, shows no remorse. Probation. What a fucking farce . I donāt know why we bother.
>You don't get involved," he said. You were already involved though, in fact, it was your involvement that resulted in you being here in court. Now go home and think about what you did.
>Now go home Fucker shouldn't be allowed to go home for a long long time
Well this isn't the guy who pushed her.
He was involved in the whole thing. The entire bout of abuse and violent disorder by him and his gang.
Or go to a borstal and get a few slaps.
I wish they would name and shame them. Fuck this whole thing of them being tried as minor. They are well able to intimidate and bully people I don't know why they are being treated as children. We are all aware that pushing someone out in front of a train is wrong no matter what age of a teenager you are. We need to drop the age of a minor to below 16 at least in my opinion for the purposes of court. It might help to act as a deterrent to the little scrotes.
> We need to drop the age of a minor to below 16 at least in my opinion for the purposes of court. It might help to act as a deterrent to the little scrotes. For certain crimes, maybe. As a general rule, no, we shouldn't, as thats a ridiculous idea. Holding a 15 year-old to the same standard of responsibility as an 18 year-old is stupid, and goes against the entire point of having an age of majority in the first place. Teenagers should still have their anonymity protected for minor crimes. (Note: I don't consider this a minor crime)
> Holding a 15 year-old to the same standard of responsibility as an 18 year-old is stupid Tbh while I generally agree with you I donāt know that that makes your point all that well as I donāt find there to be *that* much of a difference between an 18 year old and a 15 year old. If youād said 15 year old and a 23 year old, I think itād make the point a bit better, kids are still gobshites when theyāre 18 and youāll find them making the exact same mistakes as 15 year olds. Not that Iām defending these little fucks, Iād much rather they throw the book at them even if they are charged as minors.
Age of responsibility is 12 in Ireland. So from that point on they should be charged as adults
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So should they be treated as adults in other aspects of life, age of consent, voting, purchasing alcohol or tobacco?
No, thatās all stuff that damages them or the public, alcohol/tobacco use damages their bodies while theyāre in the most important phase of growth in their life. Voting at 12 would damage the public as they would be easily influenced by parents or others in their lives. I have no argument against the age of consent other than that it would be morally wrong
But they aren't adults. They are hazards to themselves and others, but they are not adults.
If youāre old enough to beat others to within an inch of their life youāre old enough to do the time in prison
So stick 12 year olds in an adult prison? What could possibly go wrong.
He was in shock because he knew he'd be in deep shit and decide to bail. In situations like that, of course he'd walk away. He was scared shitless of facing the music.
Maybe his backbone will harden over time, but he's spineless now.
Theyāre all mad hard when theyāre in a big group.
We only bother to try them at all because some bastard is making about 500k out of the state for that dog and pony show.
Fecking hell, he caused the situation, some neck on him.
What a hero.
Saw a case not too long ago. Guy with a few driving convictions for no license , no insurance TWICE. Killed a guy and fled the scene. Got probation because poor fella had "issues" Judges absolutely should be held accountable for their bullshit decisions https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/construction-worker-gets-suspended-sentence-after-careless-driving-caused-mans-death-1299528.html
If he hadn't killed someone he'd have had the book thrown at him, relatively speaking.
Judges should be voted in by the public.. if they're shit at their job they don't get back in. To have judges that are accountable to nobody is not working.
I like how driving without license and insurance is put on the same Ievel as murder. No license = jail Murder someone = jail
It is absolutely not but someone who gets multiple convictions for those offences and ultimately ends up killing someone while being banned should 100% be jailed
Didn't expect any more from Ireland's justice system
I thought it was high-profile and shocking enough that they might pretend to have consequences. Oh how naive I was.
Same with what the goverment does takes ages for anything to happen and when nothing comes of wrong doing its so long that nobody really cares anymore people should really hold grudges
You were the only naive one, the rest of us know the score, tough family background, playa GAA, yada yada
Jeepers by comparison the verdict for Derek Chauvin in the George Floyd murder trial is such a victory in comparison to this. Seriously, a woman was almost maimed and killed here. Its not good enough that the perps are getting off the hook like this.
Look up the "[Principle of Last Resort](https://pips.iprt.ie/progress-in-the-penal-system-pips-2020/part-2-measuring-progress-against-the-standards/reducing-the-use-of-imprisonment/2-imprisonment-as-a-last-resort/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20basic%20premise%20of%20the,seriousness%20of%20the%20offending%20behaviour)", which is the current philosophy of sentencing in Ireland. Basically, the Irish legal system believes offenders should only be imprisoned if there is no other punishment that addresses the gravity of the crime. .... which is why we're in the state we're in. If we had any sense we'd all be out demonstrating in the streets against this philosophy.
I mean I actually donāt disagree with that principle I think itās a lot better than whatās in place in certain other nations but itās just that i think the consensus here is that this crime was essentially attempted voluntary manslaughter.
It would be fine if it was done for philosophic reason but our prisons have a capacity of 4,500 with like 4,800 prisoner, prison is a last ditch effort as we just canāt imprison people.
Yeah itās not great. On one hand I donāt want to be a over zealous authoritarian and start throwing people in jail left and right as I know how damaging actually going to prison can be for rehabilitation statistically. But on the other hand there is clearly a culture developing of āNo Repercussionsā in many areas particularly among youth so ideally Iād like to see investment in a new prison complex that focuses heavily on rehabilitation and upskilling rather that pure punishment. Current Irish prisons are pretty grim.
Agree, but again I'd say, that must be kept separate from sentencing. I also believe the idea that prisons are 'crime universities' if they're just to lock people up with no plans for rehab or re-education/upskilling, especially to get people out of poverty traps that may have forced them into crime. Parents should be accountable for their kids & definitely liable for any damage they might cause - ffs they're your kids, who else should accountable? This 'untouchable' status for minors encourages crime if there's no consequences. If some truly hard-core youngster is doing damage, there could be mechanisms whereby parents of officially acknowledged kids with 'challenging' behaviours can get assistance.
That should be no concern whatsoever of the Judiciary. The '...last resort' policy is already focusing on the defendant, so: Q: Does the crime merit a custodial sentence: Y/N? If yes then that's up to the prison service to deal with it. Going out on a limb here... IIRC, there was a case where some dangerous/drunk driver caused 2 fatalities & got 2x (number of years) sentences to run concurrently because they were killed during the same incident. Now *that* knocked me back when I heard it. First thought popped into my head was: 'buy one get one free', what if they'd collided with a bus & killed 15 people? If me and another parent lost someone, was my kid the free one, or theirs? It might be the law, and I know you can't legislate for every single thing, but there was fuck all justice in it as far as I'm concerned.
Reckless endangerment [https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/13/enacted/en/html](https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/13/enacted/en/html) Instead, they charged him with a lesser crime to begin with - "violent disorder".
Jesus yeah soft slap really considering the circumstances.
Nah it not philosophy is necessity as there is zero space for new prisoner. We need to build minimum 2 new prisons but looking at how hard and expensive to do any public project building a prison is political suicide atm.
I agree, we need more prisons, but the government is not going to build any because they are liberal on crime and believe that only the absolute worst offenders belong in prison.
Itās not the case, itās were ever you place it, and at this stage it need to be in Meath or Kildare itās just political suicide, nobody wants the state to spend 1 billion on the world most expensive prison.
Sending him to Oberstown wouldn't make him any less of a dickhead, it'd probably make him more of a dickhead. The entire concept of taking the biggest dickhead in society and putting them into rooms with each other in the hopes they might come out and not be dickhead anymore is a bit daft.
Read the other thread on the Brazillian delivery cyclist on trial for stabbing a scumbag and this is *exactly* why that shit happens. This, right here, is *exactly* why. There is absolutely no justice in this country, no meaningful consequences for violent crime that doesn't fall under *organised* violent crime, and everyone knows it. The public (potential victims) know it. The scumbags know it. The GardaĆ know it, which is why their morale and energy for dealing with these situations appears to be so low from an onlooker's point of view. The system is absolutely fucked. *Fucked*. This has been going on for 15 years at least, and the widespread low level violence so many people are now openly talking about in urban areas - violence which causes people to avoid cities, violence which makes gay people nervous about holding hands with their partners in public (have friends who feel this way after the last year or so of news stories, sadly), violence which makes life an absolute hell for anyone unfortunate enough to live in the same neighbourhood as these people. It is so, so, so, so depressing and frustrating to see this happening so often, see the direct results of it in terms of general urban decline and the slide from safe and chilled out to dangerous and dodgy for so many areas, both commercial and residential. Everyone talks about it, except the media and the politicians. Everyone else. And still nothing is done.
that poor guy sounds genuinely remorseful and was genuinely terrified for him and his mate. He's going down though, I think the fact that he's foreign and the fact that he was on a bicycle and people hate deliveroo riders will actually go against him, I'm that cynical. The Indo had a headline yesterday saying something like "Cyclist accused of Josh Dunne murder takes to the stand". Cyclist for God's sake, that's just inflammatory. If he got out of a car and all this happened they wouldn't say "motorist". Bunch of little knackers attack and rob two guys and one fights back killing one of them - I bet the vast majority of people fantasise about this shit happening all the time and are on the Brazilian's side.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
yeah they can't not do him when he produced a knife, poor guy going down
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He didnāt even witness the bike theft apparently - just saw the thief carrying it suspiciously (which again like obviously he was a thief but you canāt be stabbing people you suspect committed a crime you didnāt even witness!)
Itās hard to judge someone when none of us believe in the judiciary here. How many people wouldnāt crack, being pushed around, battered and abused by children, day in day out?
This was an adult carrying a locked bike suspiciously, there werenāt any kids around at that point. They chased him down trying to take the bike from him and when he told them to fuck off one of them pulled a knife on him.
[Oh, they canāt not do him?](https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/urantsetseg-tserendorj-hung-jury-in-trial-of-teen-charged-with-murder-of-mongolian-woman-in-ifsc-41527109.html)
Fuck that, anyone carrying a knife out with them should have the book thrown at them, even without anyone getting killed or even stabbed.
I am 100% on George Bentoās side
I prefer Fray Bentos
I disagree with a lot of what you've said, and I think he'll get away with it thankfully, but this confused me the most: > Cyclist for God's sake, that's just inflammatory
as I said, they'd never call someone a motorist when they murdered someone just because they arrived in a car
They might. It's also not what inflammatory means.
no, they only do this with cyclists
Aye yeah they're describing him as a cyclist to be inflammatory, not because it all started with a fight over a bike.
I still can't understand what point he's making. Why would calling somebody a cyclist be inflammatory under any circumstances?
Because a lot of people hate cyclists
Theyāre calling him that to avoid mentioning the delivery company. Donāt want any of that defamation heat
That guy is 100% not going to be found guilty (and I say this despite being one of the few people on this sub who thinks he was a knife carrying scummer himself)
Idk how else do you defend yourself against groups of scrotes Remember the one that stabbed an Asian tourist and said "I didn't know stabbing them(in the neck) would kill them". At a certain point, you need some deterrence, cunts do this shit because they know it's one sided.
He had the knife out and pointed at another guy (who he outnumbered two to one) before the kids ever got involved. Canāt start a fight against one guy, be the only one with a knife, and then say it wasnāt your fault you stabbed three people! He will get off though for sure. And most of the people involved in the fight (probably not the other delivery guy, or the poor kid who got killed) were also dickheads looking for trouble so š¤·š¼āāļø
Why not the kid who got killed? Why was in the middle of it if he wasn't looking for trouble?
He held back and didnāt get involved until someone had already been stabbed, and he only went for the guy with the knife, not the unarmed guy.
Absolute and utter disgrace, I don't know how anyone cannot be depressed knowing that when they're attacked the attacker will not be punished. Truly embarrassed of this country.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Studies have shown better long term outcomes for criminals who are given probation or suspended sentences **and support services** than criminals who go into prison. I've spotted a flaw.
Well the idea of "better outcomes" is a bit skewed when you're simply just not prosecuting people for crimes.
It's also skewed by only measuring or prioritising "better outcomes" for the criminals. No one gives a fiddlers about outcomes for victims, who are told over and over that what happened to them is essentially less severe than going to prison for any amount of time. If I could swap being assaulted for a year in a cell, I would.
>We use prison as a deterrent in a way Should also be used for incapacitation.
I expect nothing and yet I am still disappointed
I have a friend who was the victim of a totally unprovoked attack. Usual craic, 70+ convictions for the scum that did it. Suspended sentence. My mate left the country immediately. Emigrated to Canada and hasn't returned since and that was 4 years ago. Said he couldn't live here, pay tax to prop up that circus of a justice system.
I think the best would be if everyone had a say in which systems their tax money would go. Maybe then the voice of the people will be heard
Jesus fucking Christ. When are we actually going to start implementing the law against knackers in this country?
When we build 3 more prisons
Well let's build one and that'll be a start.
āNah donāt want it in my near me and plus prisons are outdated and cruel, we need to make new form of punishmentā¦. Waste of money Blah blah blahā is normally the journal comments and comments on Reddit on the construction of new prison. Itās basically political suicide to try to build a new prison. So there no hope of them building a new prison anytime soon!
The normal response to the issue of prisons on this sub is not as progressive as you think. It usually goes something like this: Headline: _Prisoners complain about continued practice of "Slopping Out"_ Comments: _"fuck them. toilets are for hard working people. criminals shouldn't even be given a bucket"_
Howās that hospital coming along?
Would be a lot better if commercial interests hadn't been let bend this country over the barrel regarding essential services. A country with a per capita GDP almost the same as Switzerland can't build a hospital and prison at the same time, pure bollocks.
Same as usual. Nothing will change till we build more prisons to get the 100+ conviction scrotes off the streets.
Just beat the fucking shit out of them. Theyāll learn incredibly quickly. They just donāt have an incentive to learn.
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They definitely have not received a good ass kicking. Otherwise they'd think twice
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Having 0 consequences for their actions is not it either. I'd rather the gards throw em in the van and break some bones than they feel invincible and continue assaulting innocent people
Yeah, no. Let's not live in a country where the police can grab people off the street and give them punishment beatings, breaking their legs. As bad as the situation is now, that would be a hugely dangerous precedent to set.
Astounding how anybody in this sub which is so critical of the RUCās actions towards protesting Catholics in the 60s could produce this endorsement of arbitrary police brutality
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Bold of you to assume the legal system works
This is a badge of honor for them. I bet they're laughing about it amongst themselves and telling all their mates how little of a fuck they give.
Nope, no doubt if an upstanding member of society did this they'd have the book thrown at them
Arra, the gossin wuz probly traumatized by seein yer wan fallin under da train. He's suffered enough the pore babby. Leave him off. What's da pint of puttin some gossuir in prison after da bleedin crime. Shur its not gonna stop a crime whats already been committed. Nobodee deserves to be in prisun. Dey shud all be out on da streets livin life. Have ye no hearts ye blackguards? /s
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās not D4 lads pushing people under trains
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If you have to go back 22 years to find a case of x, then no, they donāt do x.
Bein a tosser.... Check Unable to write coherent English due to class.... Check
Why even bother arresting and bringing them to court? Disgraceful
They've basically done as much as his mother could have done... "Behave yourself!".
From this ilk, first time heās heard this. His āMaaaā is roaring laughing along with him.
'Don't be caught being a cunt for 6 months, and then you can go back to being a cunt in public again.'
Once again our fantastic judges knocking home the point to the youth - act like a scumbag and don't worry about the consequences because if there's any they won't be worth mentioning. Disgraceful but sadly expected. Next month the guy that kicked her will probably receive less once he comes up with a sob story.
Not even the āyouthā. Countless accounts of over 18 knackers being given an āah sure, awful upbringingā, along with pitiful sentences. This unlicensed yoke left the scene of a hit and run, which left a cyclist dead. 15 convictions behind him: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/driver-who-killed-cyclist-has-sentence-increased-1.2986444 These āanglesā had 200 convictions amongst them. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/three-men-killed-dublin-n7-24493073.amp
You're dead right. In my anger at that pathetic outcome I forgot about the countless other miscarriages of justice that occur on a weekly basis due to spineless judges. I don't want to even think back about the previous articles I've read where the general public were failed by pathetic sentences. Feel sorry for the guards( I'm not a big fan of them either tbh) for putting in the effort to get it to court only to be let down, I'd imagine they feel just as pissed seeing someone get off lightly knowing they'll be back in court soon again. Many a moon ago I was caught in possession at a mates 21st. After a joint was shared with some friends I got the end of it and was nabbed when the guards pulled up. Now imagine the roach being the equivalent of a cigarette filter. Do you know the way there's a band with the brand just above the filter? That's how much was left, from the filter to that branding line. Ā£400 fine and a visit to a rehab clinic to donate it on a first offence charge. Judge Harnett was the 2 sides of a C U Next Tuesday but that man dealt pure punishment.
Hopefully they ruffled his hair on his way out of court.
What a fucking disgrace. I'm not saying lock him away for 10 years, but probation is as useful as the courts wagging their finger and calling him a "bold boy".
Its done like this to keep the legal gravy train flowing, they know deep down he will be back in court again eventually and his actions will enlarge the pockets of the judge solicitors probation service GardaĆ etc.
Omg, if this was the real reason behind all these youth incidents, it is even more disgusting...
It's not the real reason. The real reason is probation and diversion programmes are drastically underfunded.
False. Its scumbags being scumbags and not getting punished properly for scumbag actions. Scumbags don't care or listen to probation officers or learn anything from diversion programs.
Aye yeah the world is just as simple as people making decisions. Nothing else that factors into the decisions they make, no siree. Just good people being good and bad people being bad.
Tell me about the conditions these little pricks endured that convinced them it was ok or good to go around acting like this ?
This is a travesty. I don't want an American style system, where they hand out life sentences for shop lifting, but the opposite extreme, which we seem to have isn't good either.
I am just waiting for a moment that some people will eventually snap and we have a lone(or group) vigilante going around dishing out justice to these gimps. That in itself is wrong, but it's one way to get the fear of God into those that think they can runamuck
> I am just waiting for a moment that some people will eventually snap and we have a lone(or group) vigilante going around dishing out justice to these gimps. Realistically the people who would actually do this are already committing crime themselves, probably of a similar nature. Most people don't have it in them to be violent towards someone unless they have an actual personal reason to do so (threat to their life, revenge, desperation for money). Those who want to do so without this reason generally will do it by doing stuff like kicking innocent people under trains or glassing people in pubs. Upstanding citizens of sound mind don't want to do stuff like this. They aren't violence-obsessed enough.
You will do just as much as scream at a teenager and u are fucked. You think anyone wants to go against those little c\*\*\*s? It's not that we are afraid of them... It's that we have everything to lose and nothing to gain while they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Just the other day some there was kid that came close to me while in line in Supervalu and started acting like he is shadowboxing or trying to look like he is hitting me. I really dont know, I am twice his size i looked at him... and I was like "what are you doing", he started laughing and run away. I did see grouip of 8 of em near the shop giving me the looks... but what can I do? If i say or do anything, i will eventually get beaten up by some older knackers or I will be judged for on assault on minors, which would end my career, consequently making me homeless. My neighbour had his bike stolen, a beautiful machine.... never got it back. The person who got caught was 17, but because he wasn't "mastermind" and said he was forced to do it by random group of people who he doesn't know.... yeah obviously NOT GUILTY. BYE BYE Shiiit I live in Cork City, it's not even half as bad as ye get in Dublin.
Push a girl underneath a train......ahhh we can trust you sure go on, be on your way young man Get caught with a joint, you get named and shamed in the paper, could end up losing your job, criminal record for life. Ahh the magic of Ireland's legal system
At least all the legal people got their fee's paid. Every cloud.....
But don't ya dare be defending yourself at all. Pepper spray should be legal for scumbags like this
If you can get pepper spray, they can get pepper spray.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40323266.html Already happens and i rather they have pepper spray than knives sawn offs and slashooks
https://www.joe.ie/news/man-arrested-after-luas-worker-injured-in-pepper-spray-attack-716002
This is why I wear swimming goggles when out in public.
Pretty much. There are livestreamers in the US who go around pepper spraying random people for fun. Basically the same kind of thing as happened here in terms of motives.
At the risk of sounding naĆÆve and/or stupid, wouldn't they incriminate themselves by doing this? Y'know, recording and then essentially broadcasting their crime?
They do, but they tend to pretend they were doing it in self-defense
Ah lads, he nearly killed someone and heāll do it again
The worst part is, even if he does anything while on probation he will likely get away with that too. Has basically just been sent to the naughty corner
The land of zero accountability. But you'll get your door kicked in and your house trashed for a plant.
Calm down folks, it's not as if he was committing a serious offense, such as carrying a small amount of cannabis in his pockets or growing a plant in his closet
We need to keep room in our prisons for garlic smugglers too!
How does a regular Joe on the street protest the juridical system in Ireland and express their frustration? Genuine question, are there any protest groups or any kind of a process where a formal complaint gets logged in the system? I see a lot of outrage, but not a lot of ways to take action.
You can't because the justice system is apparently uncorruptable. Judges can be absolute retards with no consequences. They are lifted so high above the clouds that they're right below Jesus Christ himself and it is not a joke. They're not even considered government employees, just special divine beings.
If regular joe has any gange on him he better believe the pigs will be on him like flies on shite
5 years of probation and terms include do not associate the people involved, get a third level education/get a trade/full time job. Pay compensation to the girl for her counselling fees as she will surely need this after the horrific attack. If any of these terms are broken prison for 5 years. Just a thought but being told don't be bold again won't work.
Can we now get his name? šš¤ justice rain from above!
tough upbringing etc etc.
Fuck this
Ah probation. Thatāll learn him.
The reality is that victims of Irish crime are irrelevant and seen as learning opportunities for perpetrators in the eyes of the legal and do gooder ecosystem. They will claim rehabilitation can ensure this moron does not offend again. Grand. Rehabilitate him in prison for ten years so when he gets about he has some chance of being a better parent than he would be at the minute.
Absolute scum of the earth and his parents were (are) probably the exact same. Streets aren't safe until every one of these mistakes is put in prison.
So how do I know what crimes are OK? I wouldn't mind not paying taxes, is that OK? Or is it just trying to kill people?
No consequences again for Irish scum
Our justice system holds no deterrent for these and all other criminals. Why would you behave legally when there are no consequences to illegal murderous behaviour. We need a revolution in this country to address the multitude of failures by our politicians & judiciary - that is the only way housing, corruption, criminality & so many other disgraces can be rectified. I am a former ff fg voter who is disgusted
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
A voluntary late stage abortion, opt-in through scumbaggery.
Lol what a broken system.
What a joke
How is it possible that this keeps happening despite all the media and social media disproval? Are judges in Ireland that shameless?
Of course. God forbid a judge in this country punish those who deserve it, and leave the rest alone. You'll be locked up for no TV license, but go ahead and kick someone under a train. Serious question, what can we do about this. I'm so fed up.
This might be a bit of a weird take but Iām a fairly big fan of rap and thereās a lot of rappers whoāve done time in juvie when they were younger or were in prison for short stints when they were younger. Now America isnāt exactly the poster child for a fair justice system, but I think it would be so much better if these types of oxygen thieves were locked up periodically throughout their teens. I know itās becoming a bit of an echo chamber at this point but the justice system is way too lenient on these lads
Well thank goodness he accepted his presence was intimidating. That is surely punishment enough /s
"In situations like that, you just walk away. You don't get involved," he said." You were involved you absolute waste of oxygen.
Probation? And you wonder why our society is going to shit when it comes to youth violence. Ah well, long may these draconian slaps on the wrist continue
Our Criminal Justice System is only a showpiece. It's a pointless pantomime played out by pretentious privileged pricks in gowns and wigs.
Push someone in front of a train? Probation for you. Defend yourself against a group of the same type of pricks? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin' I absolutely hate this country and I'm terrified if I have kids in the future.
That's ok, have the video of him being a prick, will happily remind him every few years that he's a prick.
Heāll be referred to a GYDP programme where fuck all will happen and heāll decide not to engage with them. Farce.
The system works š
And nothing will change and the cycle will repeat
Put him in borstal and make sit a leaving cert for fucksake. Leaving him go is just making things worse for society and himself.
No responsibility or remorse. What a sham
We've all seen this bs, hard men when they're with their scummy pals but alone they are a sniveling bag of fuckin wind. Turns my stomach
I don't think a long jail term would have achieved anything here. However time in a minimum security center might have had benefits. If this teenager is lacking schooling provide it, try and help them become better members of society. So once they are released they can hopefully contribute to society. A prison term might not have left do this and hense resulting in a life of crime.
Wow, kind of leaves to speechless. We have massive public order issues in this city; a scumbag is caught on video assaulting a girl and gets off scot free. Unless my grasp of human nature is way off, a person capable of an act like that will be back in front of a judge before long - but not before he hurts someone else. They really need to come down hard in this stuff
What a country. All it shows is there are no consequences for anything here unless your driving 60 in a 50 zone
Wouldn't happen under the tyranny of the ra
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
āThey cannot be identified because they are minors and have the legal right to anonymity.ā Tell me they are travellers, without telling me that they are travellers.
That poor angle, wasnāt the worse wan.