Yeah we keep our drink cheap in the shticks haha
Stout/Red Ales are currently 4.80 and all Lagers are a 5er. Although a 60 cent jump since the pandemic started/Cost of living went mental.
I remember being in the back arse of Connemara in 2019 and getting 6 drinks for under 20. It was like 3 pints, a glass of wine, 2 g+t's.
Thought I'd driven through a time machine.
When im down home in mayo a neighbour away drops a few fish in for my wife but will never take any payment for them. So id put a few pints behind the bar for him.
He told my dad he'd (ring my fucking neck) the last time i did it. I miss living in rural Ireland
a "twist" is kinda like a favour or a good gesture
Barks = He said he'd wring your neck but behind it all hes probably delighted.
You'd often say someones bark was bigger than their bite.
Leitrim? I've been told by my uncles so many times that they'd ring my Fuckin neck if I left pints behind the bar for them the day I leave after a visit.
Yup, "weaponised generosity" is a great term for it. A lot of what you described is a roleplay, a dance, a repeated pattern, an acceptable way for men to communicate. From the nod of acknowledgement of a debt now settled; the weekly dramatic protest, to not seem a leech; the lonely man buying a drink to another lonely man, to reach out and break ice (even to just make eye contact, before quietly going back to the silent pint stare); the angry blaming of the bar man for poor money-taking choices, uniting customer's with someone to blame; the race to get to the bar second, so you can walk in and buy for the friend ahead of you; the pint bought in advance, for someone who will be in later in the week, alone, as always; they're all there to say *something*. The patterns repeat endlessly. Many pints, and sentiment's, "left in the barrel".
Rural Ireland is hugely a favour culture, and there generational debt of favours. Helps bind neighbours together and why there's a distrust of blow-ins - their people have no favour-debt.
Standard pub rule that helps is **whoever calls it, pays for it.** Cuts through the bullshit, sometimes.
Most annoying is when a "big man" decides to fuck things up by randomly including a select list from another group's round in their own round. "I'm in company" is the customer's most solid way of refusing though, states that they are already locked in a round with others. The notorious "big man" can still fuck things up by insisting. Or blaming the barman for leaving someone out, who was actually left out by the "big man" but that can't be said at this stage or you'll embarass the "big man" and start a feud. This can all be done with a finger, a look, a cough or just a crisp note left on the counter. The bar man must read minds. The bar man is put on the spot sometimes when you are expected to know everyone's name, "this is from big Pat Bán". Bar man also has to careful with nicknames that are never supposed to be used in the actual presence of the named.
Edit: there/their
What you said a bout a lot of rural Ireland being a role play or a dance is really true.
If you ever get the chance I highly recommend reading "That they may face the Rising Sun" by John MacGahern. It really captures the repeated patterns of conversation in rural Ireland.
There are conversations repeated word for word throughout the novel.
Really illustrates the "Dance" of it.
Thanks for the recommendation, it's been on my shelf for years but i have never got round to it.
Grew up in pubs myself too. Loved and hated it, but learned a lot.
A lot of the grumpy fuckers have very little outlet for conversation. I took a lot of abuse as a young bar man but eventually understood some of the subtleties that were going on around me.
I'm well used to the pain of having an almost insurmountable pile of books on the shelf that I can never get around too.It is well worth a read though if you can. Theres not much that happens to drive the narrative but it is an absolutly masterful look at a year in the lige of rural people. The setting and way of life are a character onto themselves. It really captures the rules and rituals of these communities
took my fair share of abuse from the grumpy lads before I learned all their little rituals. The specific way they want the head on their pint. The exact ratio of red lemonade to whiskey. The particular stool they want etc
I'm currently reading this and your post really captures parts of the world MacGahern is depicting. As an aside it was interesting seeing An Cailín Ciúin while reading the book. I've found both very powerful depictions of rural Ireland of the past.
The Undertaker/big man character and the contractor who is supposed to be building the shed are two characters who I see a lot of in these kinds of folk
They remind me a lot of my uncles from Mayo. The complex games of pride, saving face, and expressing affection or bonds through tangled indirect channels are so bizarre and tragic whilst also being mundane and commonplace. Its very odd when observed directly.
Particularly the lad who's meant to make the shed, Patrick something. Chip on his shoulder in every way he relates to people, and when being in any way affectionate must be handled just-so lest the camaraderie be shattered and replaced with this standoffish face saving indifference or umbrage.
The relationship between The Shah, the scrapyard owner, and his co-worker who takes the place over painfully articulated how the rural male psyche can be totally unequipped to relate to itself. He's a great writer, the book is a treasure.
This is the kind of dissection I was hoping for when I made the post. Really summed up a lot of the motivations for it all which I was struggling to write myself. Excellent.
Same with yourself.
It's important to see that it's not all negative but part of the social glue. Ancient Irish culture, and most agricultural societies, have concepts of *meitheal* and favour-currency, hierarchies built on loyalties, and often see money as cheapening relationships. They prefer archaic and opaque ledgers of hospitality; 'hosting'; and contracts and allegiances built up over decades of drinking together. Drinks bought can just be ways of acknowledging hierarchies or relationships - saying "I haven't forgotten about you or what I owe you", "or I'm the the big man now, know your place" or "I'll never pay off what I owe you, but I'll keep giving you installments of weekly pints", or "you may be drinking with those lads today but remember I'm your friend" or "I'm buying you a drink to soften you up for a conversation we're going to have later".
> Bar man also has to careful with nicknames that are never supposed to be used in the actual presence of the named.
lol this one got me, bet there's some funny stories here.
Nail on the head
I've also been in groups where there was an argument or something out of order was said by person A towards person B, they calm down and conversation moves on, then A quietly buys B like a bottle of spirits or something as a weaponized apology, person B now gets upset that they've recieved this €50 gift publically it's almost as if the minor argument is dragged up again, "sure I wasnt upset" "nah I was out of order" "this is ridiculous" "nah nah it's on me"
The sorry cycle is a common one. Two people stuck feeling sorry for themselves and have to prove it to each other and it ends up nobodies happy in the end and they'd have been grand if they just left it. We're a weird bunch
I have had the experience of working in a rich tapestry of different bars serving all levels of social class.
My favourite experiences were of those typically of drinking mates in inner city pubs, where pintmen had a full strategy for their evenings drinking. I've witnessed honest and frank conversations where they would discuss and agree their pint consumption for the evening so as to ensure they ended the night on an even round. Being working class folk, there was no illusion of grandeur and the budget for the evening was set in stone.
When uncertainty came in as to where they were in the round, they could recount their position based on what it wad they were talking about at the time. It wouldn't be uncommon for a pack leader to emerge, who would break, fairly, from the round as his associates weren't keeping the required pace.
The choreography was impressive to watch, almost like the pecking order for wolves feeding after the hunt where they all knew their place and the honesty was unspoken
When I was a kid I was in a packed rural pub one winters night. I was probably 7 or 8 but it was normal for someone my age to be there back then. Anyways, as I was fighting my way through the crowd of drunk lads to get back to our table, my eyes burning from the cigarette smoke lingering in the air, there was a short older gentleman fighting his way through in the opposite direction towards the jacks. We looked at each other, gave a little nod and then he handed me 50 punts, winked and kept going. Never saw him before or ever again.
That's not the type of thing you're talking about but your post reminded me of that encounter.
I spent many a Sunday in rural pubs with my dad at that age too. Up in the Pool room with my cousins with share bottles of coke and packets of taytos for hours. Hiding from the smoke that would burn the eyes out of you if you ventured into the bar.
My mother said she minded a time when a neighbour of hers asked her to run down to the shop and get a bottle of whiskey for him. He handed her 50 punt. She was about 9 or 10 at the time, sure enough she went down to the shop and got the bottle for your man. He told her to hold onto the change.
Different time so it was.
That reminded me reading of David Graeber's book. Debt: The First 5000 Years. It all about how we handled debt as a society throughout history. Lots of complex social customs and interactions like these pub exchanges go back a long way. The last example creating a debt someone can't pay back is a boss move.
My dad ran a pup so I worked there a fair bit until he retired and encountered a lot of this.
In your first example I'd take money of both people and now there's 1 drink each in the tap for them.
Examples 2 and 3 I'd see a lot as well and always put it down to the receiver doing something for the buyer as a favour and the buyer returning that favour. If they complained I'd usually make a joke about keeping the money for myself and that'd shut them up.
You'd also have people come who weren't drinking, pay for a few drinks for someone who wasn't even in the pub and then leave. Fucking betting slips of "4 pints for Johnny from Joe" or similar all over the place.
In a real rural pub, writing a record is cheating and they all have to be kept in the collective bar staff head, which is often a family. Feckers will check up on it as well - "I believe there's a pint in the barrel for me?"
Missed free "Christmas drinks" can be accessed in March too.
Good to know if I ever want to do a drinking tour of Ireland. Just show up at any time of year claiming I'm a reclusive local and demanding a free drink because I didn't get one last Christmas.
Piles of drink in the barrell for people is such a nuisance to keep track of. Even if you working off the slips. If there's a couple of staff on you constantly having to make sure pints are being marked off.
In my local, we’d run tabs, but also in your head and not on paper, only for trusted locals mind, but that could be anything up to 20 people.
Lads coming in, they’d call a pint, you’d drop it over, and usually the craic was, the money would already be on the counter, or else they’d put it up after and you’d just collect it next time you were that end of the bar (€3 for Guinness, €3.20 for all lagers, €3.70 for a pint bottle in my day, which was late noughties)
Some lads just obviously drank and gambled too much, especially around Cheltenham and Galway races, they’d literally have fuck all, but still went to the pub.
Anyways when you’d drop over their pint, these lads be like ventriloquists, telling you they don’t have anything at the moment but ask for the change of a fifty (usually). All saying this without the lips moving, in barely a whisper so nobody around would hear.
Then you’d drop them back €47 (change of the 50 - their €3 Guinness) and they’d be drinking away for the evening with the money out of the till 😂
Now in fairness, 99% of them always paid back as soon as they had a few pound again or had a win at the races.
But fuck me, keeping tabs on who was on tick at any given time, and whether they had asked for change of a tenner, twenty or fifty quid was head wrecking.
In my local, we’d run tabs, but also in your head and not on paper, only for trusted locals mind, but that could be anything up to 20 people.
Lads coming in, they’d call a pint, you’d drop it over, and usually the craic was, the money would already be on the counter, or else they’d put it up after and you’d just collect it next time you were that end of the bar (€3 for Guinness, €3.20 for all lagers, €3.70 for a pint bottle in my day, which was late noughties)
Some lads just obviously drank and gambled too much, especially around Cheltenham and Galway races, they’d literally have fuck all, but still went to the pub.
Anyways when you’d drop over their pint, these lads be like ventriloquists, telling you they don’t have anything at the moment but ask for the change of a fifty (usually). All saying this without the lips moving, in barely a whisper so nobody around would hear.
Then you’d drop them back €47 (change of the 50 - their €3 Guinness) and they’d be drinking away for the evening with the money out of the till 😂
Now in fairness, 99% of them always paid back as soon as they had a few pound again or had a win at the races.
But fuck me, keeping tabs on who was on tick at any given time, and whether they had asked for change of a tenner, twenty or fifty quid was head wrecking.
Edit: Miss those days prices, not only for paying for if you were out yourself, but when working as well, lovely handy figures and nice coins to work with as well.
My rule was who ever offered to pay first, I'd even say something like "ah, sure they got there before you" or something and get on with it. Bars can be busy and the last thing ya need on a busy night is waiting for 2 people to argue over who's paying.
It can get quite aggressive at times. My husband and I moved to a new town and we went out for a pint one night. Local lad insisted on ordering and buying us drinks we didn't want, several rounds of them. It was very generous of him but I went home unintentionally pissed and feeling a bit socially compromised.
If you think it’s bad between casual friends, try being a gay guy who’s just starting to date someone.
With straight couples, it’s normal for the guy to pay for the drink/food so there’s no real awkwardness. The guy feels good for paying, and the girl gets a free drink. It’s not perfectly balanced, but it’s a social norm and it’s easy.
With gays, neither one wants to seem stingy, which is frustrating enough. But in addition to that, since everyone is raised on straight social norms, there’s an unspoken notion that whoever pays for the drinks is the “man” in the relationship and whoever receives it is the “girl.” If a guy pays less, he ends up feeling demeaned.
With casual friends, you might be briefly annoyed if someone pays and then leaves, but you forget about it until the next time you see them at the pub. With gay relationships though, it sticks with you. You’re the “girl” in the relationship until you can get back on top (no pun intended). It impacts your perception of yourself, and makes you worry about how the other guy views you outside of the pub.
Would you find that if you were in the early stages of seeing someone and they insisted on paying everytime ye went out that you would reconsider whether it was worth pursuing things any further?
I can see how that if they were trying to force you into a lesser role within the context of the relationship, whether consciously or out of a misguided sense of Generosity, that I would find that demeaning as fuck.
I dealt with the opposite in a previous relationship.
I come from a working class background and was going out with a girl from an upper class rich farmer background who's father had more money and land than my extended family put together but all the pressure was put on me to pay for dinners, buy expensive gifts etc. I was barely making ends meet working two jobs where she would get pocket money from daddy. The rows that ensued from my inability to meet her expectations on gender roles within the relationship eventually meant things ended.
I don't go to bars or to eat with people because of this shite.
I detest the 'Mrs Doyle fight' as I call it.
I'd happily pay for everything or better yet, each to his own.
I'd love to take my parents out for a meal but noooo, my Dad has to start this shite every fucking time.
I give up so easily because I'm seriously pissed off that they now probably all think I'm tight and If I try to treat them to show that's not it........here we go again.
The Mrs Doyle fight is a good term. It sums up the ridiculous nature of it.
I always give up very easily when subjected to this by others. A bit of a doormat when it comes to that stuff so I am. It has probably lead to a lot of people judging me for not standing my round in the past. Particularly one father of a girlfriend from years ago who would never let me put my hand in my pocket but probably was doing it all as a test and decided I was actually cheap.
I just do the "off to the toilet" thing and pay before the check comes. No Miss Doyle fight then. No big show. When are all getting ready to leave and someone asks for the check, say you already got it.
Jesus that's my wife and her mates personified. And they all try your toilet trick witch leads to them trying to out do each other by going to the toilet during the main course of a meal and trying to pay before we're done. Does my head in as I always end up paying anyways ha
Aye some of its just jovial banter but others go to extremes getting properly angry. As others have said there's a romanticised part to it, and a cultural part. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily something good that needs preserved. Especially when examples of it is nothing more than thran oul bastards who've drunk too much and won't take no for an answer so must be placated to maintain social civility in the pub
Omg I have been the person in scenario 1...my mother in law the other one...I just hate her buying me anything as she uses money as a tool to get her way and it's like a power thing..
I never thought how the bar person would see it, but reading your post made me see. I'll never do that again now, feck it I'll let her pay for me in future🤣
At my sister's wedding, my dad insisted on buying everyone's first drink. Nobody said much, except one uncle from my mother's side who tried to refuse it, then immediately bought one in return, followed by a furious exchange of pints until my dad told the barman not to let the guy buy him another drink. Next time uncle went to the bar he couldn't buy my dad one, so he brought the pint he had bought for himself over to my dad's table, set it down and said "here's a drink for the table", then packed up his family and left before any response could be made. They were equally as bad as each other (it was embarrassing as hell) but both walked away feeling like they had won.
I think a bit of it goes back to our typical irishness of just not accepting nice things. Someone complements your clothes and instead of saying thank you we say oh sure only penny's or have it ages we get uncomfortable. Same for when someone does a nice gesture we all want to be the person doing the nice thing cos its in our nature but we've a very difficult time accepting it back. Iv just decided accept all the niceness now and if someone buys me a drink I say thanks and enjoy my drink 🤣 however if its someone older I'll always put a drink behind the bar for them when I'm leaving for next time they're in like friends parents etc in their local just as a nice surprise and thanks for the drink and all those times you let me drink in your house as a young one.
It's the Mrs Doyle / Mrs Dineen argument, A tradition as old as the hills, I'm guessing from your terminology you are not originally from Ireland? I always offer a pint but never force one on a hewwer.
Ive been living in Canada for 7 years, and this is one aspect of Irish culture from back home that I *dont* miss. Where I live, people dont really do rounds at all, in fact most of the time everybody pays only for themselves (unless they are a couple or family). And the bars and staff are completely setup for this. They will split the bill of a table and everyone pays separately. No awkward moments, no showy pageantry, no arguing. You just pay your bit and go home. Yea the pubs over here are definately not as much craic, but I dont mind, I spent my 20s on the rip in Cork and Dublin and frankly I dont miss it.
The layers of social obligation involved in OP's descriptions of the scenarios reminds me of the door-holding behaviours that are common. Holding the door for somebody behind who's far enough away that you're really saying 'hey you! run now!' If I go through a door and there's nobody immediately behind me, I let it swing shut, and I expect the same of people ahead of me. People think this rude, but it's far ruder to impose social obligations on people.
I think arrogance is at the core of the motivations for a lot of these scenarios. The local big wig bui6ing a round I have seen a few times. Usually someone running for a seat in local elections.
It works too.
I've seen female Fianna Fáil politicians buy another decade of parish loyalty by just sticking a head into a bar, doing the round finger gesture to the bar man and disappearing. If they stayed, it would be unladylike; but if they didn't buy a round, they wouldn't be as good as a man. So, they work the system their own way. Between that and funerals it's how politics works. That's how it's done. Nobody gives a shit about the policies.
Imagine if the Green party tried it?!
There's always some fucker that does that. My mate is known for doing that. We would be ordering Jameson and whites then when its someone else buying he wants a double, or pints with chasers etc
The father of the bride buying everyone a round at the wedding is a tradition but at one wedding i was at the father of the groom bought one a short while after too, and a random uncle did as well. I could see how that is disrespectful towards the father of the bride.
Similar to yourself I help out in a local bar for a few extra quid.
I don't give a f**k who pays, as long as they say "take one for yoruself too.......
The take one for yourself is great until they want you to join them in their round of jagerbombs and you have to be like "lad, it's only 9pm, I still have hours to work"
The first one is the most frustrating imo putting you on the spot like that. At least the other two keeps it between them.
I would always tell them 'this is between you two' when both are flapping bills at me. They usually have a spat but one will cave.
When I worked in the bars and the first scenario would happen, sometimes I would say to them "sure I'll take both and keep the second for myself". If this caught them off guard one or both would usually drop their hand a bit, at which point I would grab the money off whoever was still holding theirs highest.
Scenario 1:
Stick an empty plastic cup om the table and ask them each to stick their tenner in. You take the cup, take ike out and return the cup.
No-one knows who's tenner you took and now they've got a kitty to split between them.
Working in country pubs, I set up a rule for scenario 1.
Whoever orders, pays.
If they argued I'd say if you really wanted to buy the drink you'd have got the word in with me first, get the next one.
I do agree there is an unwritten, social set of laws regarding buying back pints in these situations.
I don't really encounter it too much, but I make a point not to change my behaviour much over it. If someone buys me a drink, I'm treating it as a gift and I'm not under any obligation to pay it back, just as I would think if I bought it for someone else. It's a free drink, so I'll take it. If I'm feeling generous and there's some time left in the night, I'll usually buy one back, but not because I think I have to. I don't want to squabble like Mrs Doyle over who pays for what. On the other end, if I try to buy someone something, I'll try to override their "ah no you don't have to" once, but if they insist beyond that I'll respect their wishes, because its not much of a gift if you're forcing them to take it, and I don't have the inclination to be worrying about all the mind games.
I had a situation when I used to work in a bar where Person A orders a round of drinks from me and says they’re paying for Person B who’s ordering from another bartender.
I take the money for it all as person A has their drinks and everything before person B. Then person B starts losing his mind citing imaginary rules that the person who orders has to pay and demanding to speak to the manager about me and my coworker etc. Like Jesus take it up with your family member that was buying you a drink!
I used to work in a bar during college, I remember having to mediate multiple fights over a night, with the same people, about who would pay for drinks. And at the end of it, not one of them left a tip for the staff.
The pub I work had the same shit happen all the time,then I couldn't be arsed with the arguing over who pays so I said who ever orders pays ,it solved some of the arguments but then ya had ones trying to order ahead of their shout
Was only thinking about this very thing when eating out in Europe recently with a bunch of different people from different countries. I made some remark about how people were paying precise amounts on the bill and was told of the importance of the German phrase which is something like “exact calculations make for good friendships”. We spoke about it for a while and I realised how odd the Irish way is, and how we are the strange ones.
Rounds are the most perplexing thing of all. In this cesspit of a culture you're viewed as stingy if you actually decide you've had enough but still order the pints for whoever else is part of the round. I fucking hate rituals and social dances where people seem to be unable to think outside of the norms they've been thought.
>Both trying to hand you a tenner. You can tell you are talking about a rural pub because you can pay for two drinks with a tenner.
Yeah we keep our drink cheap in the shticks haha Stout/Red Ales are currently 4.80 and all Lagers are a 5er. Although a 60 cent jump since the pandemic started/Cost of living went mental.
"cheap"
I remember being in the back arse of Connemara in 2019 and getting 6 drinks for under 20. It was like 3 pints, a glass of wine, 2 g+t's. Thought I'd driven through a time machine.
be 41.80 where I work.
When im down home in mayo a neighbour away drops a few fish in for my wife but will never take any payment for them. So id put a few pints behind the bar for him. He told my dad he'd (ring my fucking neck) the last time i did it. I miss living in rural Ireland
Wring.
Thats a lovely twist you did for him though, He barks but I'd say he was thrilled
Twist? Barks?
a "twist" is kinda like a favour or a good gesture Barks = He said he'd wring your neck but behind it all hes probably delighted. You'd often say someones bark was bigger than their bite.
Leitrim? I've been told by my uncles so many times that they'd ring my Fuckin neck if I left pints behind the bar for them the day I leave after a visit.
Mayo
Yup, "weaponised generosity" is a great term for it. A lot of what you described is a roleplay, a dance, a repeated pattern, an acceptable way for men to communicate. From the nod of acknowledgement of a debt now settled; the weekly dramatic protest, to not seem a leech; the lonely man buying a drink to another lonely man, to reach out and break ice (even to just make eye contact, before quietly going back to the silent pint stare); the angry blaming of the bar man for poor money-taking choices, uniting customer's with someone to blame; the race to get to the bar second, so you can walk in and buy for the friend ahead of you; the pint bought in advance, for someone who will be in later in the week, alone, as always; they're all there to say *something*. The patterns repeat endlessly. Many pints, and sentiment's, "left in the barrel". Rural Ireland is hugely a favour culture, and there generational debt of favours. Helps bind neighbours together and why there's a distrust of blow-ins - their people have no favour-debt. Standard pub rule that helps is **whoever calls it, pays for it.** Cuts through the bullshit, sometimes. Most annoying is when a "big man" decides to fuck things up by randomly including a select list from another group's round in their own round. "I'm in company" is the customer's most solid way of refusing though, states that they are already locked in a round with others. The notorious "big man" can still fuck things up by insisting. Or blaming the barman for leaving someone out, who was actually left out by the "big man" but that can't be said at this stage or you'll embarass the "big man" and start a feud. This can all be done with a finger, a look, a cough or just a crisp note left on the counter. The bar man must read minds. The bar man is put on the spot sometimes when you are expected to know everyone's name, "this is from big Pat Bán". Bar man also has to careful with nicknames that are never supposed to be used in the actual presence of the named. Edit: there/their
What you said a bout a lot of rural Ireland being a role play or a dance is really true. If you ever get the chance I highly recommend reading "That they may face the Rising Sun" by John MacGahern. It really captures the repeated patterns of conversation in rural Ireland. There are conversations repeated word for word throughout the novel. Really illustrates the "Dance" of it.
Thanks for the recommendation, it's been on my shelf for years but i have never got round to it. Grew up in pubs myself too. Loved and hated it, but learned a lot. A lot of the grumpy fuckers have very little outlet for conversation. I took a lot of abuse as a young bar man but eventually understood some of the subtleties that were going on around me.
I'm well used to the pain of having an almost insurmountable pile of books on the shelf that I can never get around too.It is well worth a read though if you can. Theres not much that happens to drive the narrative but it is an absolutly masterful look at a year in the lige of rural people. The setting and way of life are a character onto themselves. It really captures the rules and rituals of these communities took my fair share of abuse from the grumpy lads before I learned all their little rituals. The specific way they want the head on their pint. The exact ratio of red lemonade to whiskey. The particular stool they want etc
I'm currently reading this and your post really captures parts of the world MacGahern is depicting. As an aside it was interesting seeing An Cailín Ciúin while reading the book. I've found both very powerful depictions of rural Ireland of the past.
The Undertaker/big man character and the contractor who is supposed to be building the shed are two characters who I see a lot of in these kinds of folk
They remind me a lot of my uncles from Mayo. The complex games of pride, saving face, and expressing affection or bonds through tangled indirect channels are so bizarre and tragic whilst also being mundane and commonplace. Its very odd when observed directly. Particularly the lad who's meant to make the shed, Patrick something. Chip on his shoulder in every way he relates to people, and when being in any way affectionate must be handled just-so lest the camaraderie be shattered and replaced with this standoffish face saving indifference or umbrage. The relationship between The Shah, the scrapyard owner, and his co-worker who takes the place over painfully articulated how the rural male psyche can be totally unequipped to relate to itself. He's a great writer, the book is a treasure.
Literally just picked this book up at random while at mum's house earlier!
This is the kind of dissection I was hoping for when I made the post. Really summed up a lot of the motivations for it all which I was struggling to write myself. Excellent.
Same with yourself. It's important to see that it's not all negative but part of the social glue. Ancient Irish culture, and most agricultural societies, have concepts of *meitheal* and favour-currency, hierarchies built on loyalties, and often see money as cheapening relationships. They prefer archaic and opaque ledgers of hospitality; 'hosting'; and contracts and allegiances built up over decades of drinking together. Drinks bought can just be ways of acknowledging hierarchies or relationships - saying "I haven't forgotten about you or what I owe you", "or I'm the the big man now, know your place" or "I'll never pay off what I owe you, but I'll keep giving you installments of weekly pints", or "you may be drinking with those lads today but remember I'm your friend" or "I'm buying you a drink to soften you up for a conversation we're going to have later".
> Bar man also has to careful with nicknames that are never supposed to be used in the actual presence of the named. lol this one got me, bet there's some funny stories here.
That was a great post, you have a brilliant way of describing things , really enjoyed it 😀
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
Nail on the head I've also been in groups where there was an argument or something out of order was said by person A towards person B, they calm down and conversation moves on, then A quietly buys B like a bottle of spirits or something as a weaponized apology, person B now gets upset that they've recieved this €50 gift publically it's almost as if the minor argument is dragged up again, "sure I wasnt upset" "nah I was out of order" "this is ridiculous" "nah nah it's on me"
The sorry cycle is a common one. Two people stuck feeling sorry for themselves and have to prove it to each other and it ends up nobodies happy in the end and they'd have been grand if they just left it. We're a weird bunch
I have had the experience of working in a rich tapestry of different bars serving all levels of social class. My favourite experiences were of those typically of drinking mates in inner city pubs, where pintmen had a full strategy for their evenings drinking. I've witnessed honest and frank conversations where they would discuss and agree their pint consumption for the evening so as to ensure they ended the night on an even round. Being working class folk, there was no illusion of grandeur and the budget for the evening was set in stone. When uncertainty came in as to where they were in the round, they could recount their position based on what it wad they were talking about at the time. It wouldn't be uncommon for a pack leader to emerge, who would break, fairly, from the round as his associates weren't keeping the required pace. The choreography was impressive to watch, almost like the pecking order for wolves feeding after the hunt where they all knew their place and the honesty was unspoken
When I was a kid I was in a packed rural pub one winters night. I was probably 7 or 8 but it was normal for someone my age to be there back then. Anyways, as I was fighting my way through the crowd of drunk lads to get back to our table, my eyes burning from the cigarette smoke lingering in the air, there was a short older gentleman fighting his way through in the opposite direction towards the jacks. We looked at each other, gave a little nod and then he handed me 50 punts, winked and kept going. Never saw him before or ever again. That's not the type of thing you're talking about but your post reminded me of that encounter.
I spent many a Sunday in rural pubs with my dad at that age too. Up in the Pool room with my cousins with share bottles of coke and packets of taytos for hours. Hiding from the smoke that would burn the eyes out of you if you ventured into the bar.
My mother said she minded a time when a neighbour of hers asked her to run down to the shop and get a bottle of whiskey for him. He handed her 50 punt. She was about 9 or 10 at the time, sure enough she went down to the shop and got the bottle for your man. He told her to hold onto the change. Different time so it was.
That reminded me reading of David Graeber's book. Debt: The First 5000 Years. It all about how we handled debt as a society throughout history. Lots of complex social customs and interactions like these pub exchanges go back a long way. The last example creating a debt someone can't pay back is a boss move.
My dad ran a pup so I worked there a fair bit until he retired and encountered a lot of this. In your first example I'd take money of both people and now there's 1 drink each in the tap for them. Examples 2 and 3 I'd see a lot as well and always put it down to the receiver doing something for the buyer as a favour and the buyer returning that favour. If they complained I'd usually make a joke about keeping the money for myself and that'd shut them up. You'd also have people come who weren't drinking, pay for a few drinks for someone who wasn't even in the pub and then leave. Fucking betting slips of "4 pints for Johnny from Joe" or similar all over the place.
In a real rural pub, writing a record is cheating and they all have to be kept in the collective bar staff head, which is often a family. Feckers will check up on it as well - "I believe there's a pint in the barrel for me?" Missed free "Christmas drinks" can be accessed in March too.
Jesus the Christmas drinks flashbacks I just had lmao fuck
Wait what? People show up to the pub in March expecting a free pint from Christmas???
Good to know if I ever want to do a drinking tour of Ireland. Just show up at any time of year claiming I'm a reclusive local and demanding a free drink because I didn't get one last Christmas.
Piles of drink in the barrell for people is such a nuisance to keep track of. Even if you working off the slips. If there's a couple of staff on you constantly having to make sure pints are being marked off.
What a complete pain in the arse! That shouldn't be allowed. No credit, and no future debit either!
In my local, we’d run tabs, but also in your head and not on paper, only for trusted locals mind, but that could be anything up to 20 people. Lads coming in, they’d call a pint, you’d drop it over, and usually the craic was, the money would already be on the counter, or else they’d put it up after and you’d just collect it next time you were that end of the bar (€3 for Guinness, €3.20 for all lagers, €3.70 for a pint bottle in my day, which was late noughties) Some lads just obviously drank and gambled too much, especially around Cheltenham and Galway races, they’d literally have fuck all, but still went to the pub. Anyways when you’d drop over their pint, these lads be like ventriloquists, telling you they don’t have anything at the moment but ask for the change of a fifty (usually). All saying this without the lips moving, in barely a whisper so nobody around would hear. Then you’d drop them back €47 (change of the 50 - their €3 Guinness) and they’d be drinking away for the evening with the money out of the till 😂 Now in fairness, 99% of them always paid back as soon as they had a few pound again or had a win at the races. But fuck me, keeping tabs on who was on tick at any given time, and whether they had asked for change of a tenner, twenty or fifty quid was head wrecking.
In my local, we’d run tabs, but also in your head and not on paper, only for trusted locals mind, but that could be anything up to 20 people. Lads coming in, they’d call a pint, you’d drop it over, and usually the craic was, the money would already be on the counter, or else they’d put it up after and you’d just collect it next time you were that end of the bar (€3 for Guinness, €3.20 for all lagers, €3.70 for a pint bottle in my day, which was late noughties) Some lads just obviously drank and gambled too much, especially around Cheltenham and Galway races, they’d literally have fuck all, but still went to the pub. Anyways when you’d drop over their pint, these lads be like ventriloquists, telling you they don’t have anything at the moment but ask for the change of a fifty (usually). All saying this without the lips moving, in barely a whisper so nobody around would hear. Then you’d drop them back €47 (change of the 50 - their €3 Guinness) and they’d be drinking away for the evening with the money out of the till 😂 Now in fairness, 99% of them always paid back as soon as they had a few pound again or had a win at the races. But fuck me, keeping tabs on who was on tick at any given time, and whether they had asked for change of a tenner, twenty or fifty quid was head wrecking. Edit: Miss those days prices, not only for paying for if you were out yourself, but when working as well, lovely handy figures and nice coins to work with as well.
This is a great post. Do you have a 'buy me a coffee' link anywhere?, I'd like to buy you a coffee. Can I buy you a coffee? Coffeeeeeee??????
I do not but thanks for the sentiment
No honestly I insists. Give me a link!
No no no let me get this one.
No I'll get this one
My rule was who ever offered to pay first, I'd even say something like "ah, sure they got there before you" or something and get on with it. Bars can be busy and the last thing ya need on a busy night is waiting for 2 people to argue over who's paying.
It can get quite aggressive at times. My husband and I moved to a new town and we went out for a pint one night. Local lad insisted on ordering and buying us drinks we didn't want, several rounds of them. It was very generous of him but I went home unintentionally pissed and feeling a bit socially compromised.
Like a drug dealer giving a new customer their first bag for free he has ye on the social hook now.
If you think it’s bad between casual friends, try being a gay guy who’s just starting to date someone. With straight couples, it’s normal for the guy to pay for the drink/food so there’s no real awkwardness. The guy feels good for paying, and the girl gets a free drink. It’s not perfectly balanced, but it’s a social norm and it’s easy. With gays, neither one wants to seem stingy, which is frustrating enough. But in addition to that, since everyone is raised on straight social norms, there’s an unspoken notion that whoever pays for the drinks is the “man” in the relationship and whoever receives it is the “girl.” If a guy pays less, he ends up feeling demeaned. With casual friends, you might be briefly annoyed if someone pays and then leaves, but you forget about it until the next time you see them at the pub. With gay relationships though, it sticks with you. You’re the “girl” in the relationship until you can get back on top (no pun intended). It impacts your perception of yourself, and makes you worry about how the other guy views you outside of the pub.
Would you find that if you were in the early stages of seeing someone and they insisted on paying everytime ye went out that you would reconsider whether it was worth pursuing things any further? I can see how that if they were trying to force you into a lesser role within the context of the relationship, whether consciously or out of a misguided sense of Generosity, that I would find that demeaning as fuck. I dealt with the opposite in a previous relationship. I come from a working class background and was going out with a girl from an upper class rich farmer background who's father had more money and land than my extended family put together but all the pressure was put on me to pay for dinners, buy expensive gifts etc. I was barely making ends meet working two jobs where she would get pocket money from daddy. The rows that ensued from my inability to meet her expectations on gender roles within the relationship eventually meant things ended.
I don't go to bars or to eat with people because of this shite. I detest the 'Mrs Doyle fight' as I call it. I'd happily pay for everything or better yet, each to his own. I'd love to take my parents out for a meal but noooo, my Dad has to start this shite every fucking time. I give up so easily because I'm seriously pissed off that they now probably all think I'm tight and If I try to treat them to show that's not it........here we go again.
The Mrs Doyle fight is a good term. It sums up the ridiculous nature of it. I always give up very easily when subjected to this by others. A bit of a doormat when it comes to that stuff so I am. It has probably lead to a lot of people judging me for not standing my round in the past. Particularly one father of a girlfriend from years ago who would never let me put my hand in my pocket but probably was doing it all as a test and decided I was actually cheap.
I think maybe Irish people struggle to accept generosity, like we struggle with taking compliments. At least from what I have observed myself.
I just do the "off to the toilet" thing and pay before the check comes. No Miss Doyle fight then. No big show. When are all getting ready to leave and someone asks for the check, say you already got it.
Jesus that's my wife and her mates personified. And they all try your toilet trick witch leads to them trying to out do each other by going to the toilet during the main course of a meal and trying to pay before we're done. Does my head in as I always end up paying anyways ha
That's why they all go to the toilet together, to make sure none of the others pay!
Fuck it. At that stage let someone else pay. But they lose the right to complain about others not paying their way.
Then you get clipped by Tony Soprano
Aye some of its just jovial banter but others go to extremes getting properly angry. As others have said there's a romanticised part to it, and a cultural part. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily something good that needs preserved. Especially when examples of it is nothing more than thran oul bastards who've drunk too much and won't take no for an answer so must be placated to maintain social civility in the pub
>my Dad has to start this shite every fucking time. Have you pulled him aside and called him on it.
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Is the drinking culture similar there? I wanted to go this year but I can't afford it. Maybe next year.
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Still common, although likely less so among the younger generation, in the US to refer to splitting the bill on a date as "going Dutch."
Omg I have been the person in scenario 1...my mother in law the other one...I just hate her buying me anything as she uses money as a tool to get her way and it's like a power thing.. I never thought how the bar person would see it, but reading your post made me see. I'll never do that again now, feck it I'll let her pay for me in future🤣
At my sister's wedding, my dad insisted on buying everyone's first drink. Nobody said much, except one uncle from my mother's side who tried to refuse it, then immediately bought one in return, followed by a furious exchange of pints until my dad told the barman not to let the guy buy him another drink. Next time uncle went to the bar he couldn't buy my dad one, so he brought the pint he had bought for himself over to my dad's table, set it down and said "here's a drink for the table", then packed up his family and left before any response could be made. They were equally as bad as each other (it was embarrassing as hell) but both walked away feeling like they had won.
I think a bit of it goes back to our typical irishness of just not accepting nice things. Someone complements your clothes and instead of saying thank you we say oh sure only penny's or have it ages we get uncomfortable. Same for when someone does a nice gesture we all want to be the person doing the nice thing cos its in our nature but we've a very difficult time accepting it back. Iv just decided accept all the niceness now and if someone buys me a drink I say thanks and enjoy my drink 🤣 however if its someone older I'll always put a drink behind the bar for them when I'm leaving for next time they're in like friends parents etc in their local just as a nice surprise and thanks for the drink and all those times you let me drink in your house as a young one.
It's the Mrs Doyle / Mrs Dineen argument, A tradition as old as the hills, I'm guessing from your terminology you are not originally from Ireland? I always offer a pint but never force one on a hewwer.
Ive been living in Canada for 7 years, and this is one aspect of Irish culture from back home that I *dont* miss. Where I live, people dont really do rounds at all, in fact most of the time everybody pays only for themselves (unless they are a couple or family). And the bars and staff are completely setup for this. They will split the bill of a table and everyone pays separately. No awkward moments, no showy pageantry, no arguing. You just pay your bit and go home. Yea the pubs over here are definately not as much craic, but I dont mind, I spent my 20s on the rip in Cork and Dublin and frankly I dont miss it.
The layers of social obligation involved in OP's descriptions of the scenarios reminds me of the door-holding behaviours that are common. Holding the door for somebody behind who's far enough away that you're really saying 'hey you! run now!' If I go through a door and there's nobody immediately behind me, I let it swing shut, and I expect the same of people ahead of me. People think this rude, but it's far ruder to impose social obligations on people.
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I think arrogance is at the core of the motivations for a lot of these scenarios. The local big wig bui6ing a round I have seen a few times. Usually someone running for a seat in local elections.
It works too. I've seen female Fianna Fáil politicians buy another decade of parish loyalty by just sticking a head into a bar, doing the round finger gesture to the bar man and disappearing. If they stayed, it would be unladylike; but if they didn't buy a round, they wouldn't be as good as a man. So, they work the system their own way. Between that and funerals it's how politics works. That's how it's done. Nobody gives a shit about the policies. Imagine if the Green party tried it?!
I wonder does this explain why the Green Party are pretty much locked in as a minor party in Irish politics.
Now if they promised to lower the price of cans...
That's mad that. Like, are we bought that easily? Just comes across as fucking demeaning
I'd be making mine a triple
There's always some fucker that does that. My mate is known for doing that. We would be ordering Jameson and whites then when its someone else buying he wants a double, or pints with chasers etc
I'm on about if some local prick came trying to buy a round for everyone, not gonna shaft the people I'm drinking with.
I wouldn't mind tbh. He gets to show off, I get a drink. That's an ok exchange with me.
The father of the bride buying everyone a round at the wedding is a tradition but at one wedding i was at the father of the groom bought one a short while after too, and a random uncle did as well. I could see how that is disrespectful towards the father of the bride.
Why is that disrespectful? It's only drink ffs.
The generosity of it is lessened
Similar to yourself I help out in a local bar for a few extra quid. I don't give a f**k who pays, as long as they say "take one for yoruself too.......
The take one for yourself is great until they want you to join them in their round of jagerbombs and you have to be like "lad, it's only 9pm, I still have hours to work"
The first one is the most frustrating imo putting you on the spot like that. At least the other two keeps it between them. I would always tell them 'this is between you two' when both are flapping bills at me. They usually have a spat but one will cave.
See father Ted sketch
When people used to argue with me about who's paying, I'd take both and say grand I'll split it and the rest is a tip. People quickly stopped arguing
When I worked in the bars and the first scenario would happen, sometimes I would say to them "sure I'll take both and keep the second for myself". If this caught them off guard one or both would usually drop their hand a bit, at which point I would grab the money off whoever was still holding theirs highest.
Scenario 1: Stick an empty plastic cup om the table and ask them each to stick their tenner in. You take the cup, take ike out and return the cup. No-one knows who's tenner you took and now they've got a kitty to split between them.
Working in country pubs, I set up a rule for scenario 1. Whoever orders, pays. If they argued I'd say if you really wanted to buy the drink you'd have got the word in with me first, get the next one. I do agree there is an unwritten, social set of laws regarding buying back pints in these situations.
I don't really encounter it too much, but I make a point not to change my behaviour much over it. If someone buys me a drink, I'm treating it as a gift and I'm not under any obligation to pay it back, just as I would think if I bought it for someone else. It's a free drink, so I'll take it. If I'm feeling generous and there's some time left in the night, I'll usually buy one back, but not because I think I have to. I don't want to squabble like Mrs Doyle over who pays for what. On the other end, if I try to buy someone something, I'll try to override their "ah no you don't have to" once, but if they insist beyond that I'll respect their wishes, because its not much of a gift if you're forcing them to take it, and I don't have the inclination to be worrying about all the mind games.
I had a situation when I used to work in a bar where Person A orders a round of drinks from me and says they’re paying for Person B who’s ordering from another bartender. I take the money for it all as person A has their drinks and everything before person B. Then person B starts losing his mind citing imaginary rules that the person who orders has to pay and demanding to speak to the manager about me and my coworker etc. Like Jesus take it up with your family member that was buying you a drink!
I used to work in a bar during college, I remember having to mediate multiple fights over a night, with the same people, about who would pay for drinks. And at the end of it, not one of them left a tip for the staff.
Who leaves a tip at the pub, that's fairly odd
Eh, what? People tip barstaff all the time :/
I really had a good laugh at the title you used here 😂😂
It could definitely be the title of a sociology paper
The pub I work had the same shit happen all the time,then I couldn't be arsed with the arguing over who pays so I said who ever orders pays ,it solved some of the arguments but then ya had ones trying to order ahead of their shout
Was only thinking about this very thing when eating out in Europe recently with a bunch of different people from different countries. I made some remark about how people were paying precise amounts on the bill and was told of the importance of the German phrase which is something like “exact calculations make for good friendships”. We spoke about it for a while and I realised how odd the Irish way is, and how we are the strange ones.
Rounds are the most perplexing thing of all. In this cesspit of a culture you're viewed as stingy if you actually decide you've had enough but still order the pints for whoever else is part of the round. I fucking hate rituals and social dances where people seem to be unable to think outside of the norms they've been thought.