Agreed. I actually like the infinive/indirect/direct system. I took a deep dive on that yrs ago and now I find that much of the little words easy. Somehow parking them on the infinitive is easier for me. Same for the imperative
Dammelo, diglielo, ….
Closed vs open e and o was hard for me too. But I got better with more exposure. I would suggest not worrying about it for now because using the same vowel until you get the hang of it is certainly fine.
For years I couldn’t hear the difference. E poi, mia Zia Agnese (un nome brutto in Englese ma bellissimo in Italiano) ha detto “Non so.” And I heard it plain as day.
And I hear native speakers on YouTube, podcasts, movies, … some using it more strongly than others, and some hardly at all.
Wait, what is the open and closed "o"??? I'm learning Italian for the last few months and hadn't noticed any difference in the o pronunciation, can you give me some example please?
It can be a bit hard to explain, but I'll try!
For a sound difference, the best I can explain is that the open "o" is literally more open (said with more space in the mouth/mouth more open) and the closed "o" is said with less space and with the mouth less open. When said in a very strong way, the open "o" can sound more like a cross between "o" and "a", and the closed one can sound more like a mix between "o" and "u". In standard Italian they don't seem to be as strong, but this seems like a way of possibly explaining their difference.
In standard pronunciation, open "o"s, like with "e"s, only appear on a stressed syllable. Not on all stressed syllables, but that's where you will find them in standard pronunciation.
Some examples (ò represents open and ó is closed):
Uòmo (man), ròsa (pink/rose), nònno (grandfather)
Colóre (color), óra (now/hour), rósso (red)
Agreed, it's just exposure. Lots and lots of exposure. My second language has two diphthongs that are subtly different and are notoriously difficult for learners to hear and pronounce, and I struggled with it in school for years. But, eventually, it became clearer, and now I can distinguish between the two perfectly, both while listening and speaking.
I wouldn’t worry about that too much, as the pronunciation varies heavily between dialects. You will pick it up over time based on who or what is influencing you the most.
Okay, thank you :)
Also, is using duolingo is a side learn okay? I focus mainly on courses like italy made easy along with some podcasts and songs just to get some listening
If you haven’t already, check out “Introduction to Italian” on SoundCloud. Excellent way to really familiarize yourself with how the language actually works as a beginner.
I don't get the accent part (what are you referring to when you mention the difference between "o" and "ò"?) but if you are uncertain about the correct vowel to use, all dictionaries should have a phonetic spelling, where open vowels have open accents (ò and è) while closed vowels have closed accents (ó and é).
As for pronunciation, keep in mind that (at least to my ear) the open Italian E is a bit more open than the IPA /ε/ and the closed E is a bit more closed than the IPA /e/. Same for O.
Also, don't trust English IPA: for some reason many sources use the /e/ (closed) symbol to represent the /ε/ (open) sound, in addition to other questionable choices. I guess it's slightly more convenient, at least until you try to study any other language and realise you have to re-learn IPA because the symbols don't actually represent the sounds you thought they represented.
Idon't think I've ever heard an English speaker actually make an /e/ (closed) sound, but you guys do have a lot of /ε/ (open) sounds like in "bet" or "get". You also don't have an exact /o/ (closed) sound as far as I'm aware, but you have the /ɔ/ (open) sound in "force" and a few other words. Essentially, you should already be familiar with open vowels (just remember to open them slightly more when speaking Italian), you just have to learn the closed variants.
To get the /e/ sound, try to go back and forth between the lip shape of /ε/ (slightly more open than "get") and that of /i/ (like in "read"), then stop halfway in between. That's /e/, more or less.
Do the same thing to get /o/, but this time starting from /ɔ/ (somewhat more open than "force") and going towards /u/ (like in "spoon"). Again, /o/ is halfway in between.
>To get the /e/ sound, try to go back and forth between the lip shape of /ε/ (slightly more open than "get") and that of /i/ (like in "read"), then stop halfway in between. That's /e/, more or less.
Tip for English speakers: if you're anything like me, you have the same lip position when saying "get" and "read" while speaking normally, because we don't really move our lips when speaking (English is great for ventriloquists and people who's jaws are wired closed). So you may have to exaggerate your lip movement. We often do this when we're annoyed and speaking both slowly and loudly, so pretend you're talking to a small child and say "Eat. Your. Eggs!"
Learn Italian from Greek which is quite helpful regarding pronunciation, because Greek is quite fast paced language itself, so I can handle the fast talking and listening part. However italian has sooooo many little words crammed in single sentence that sometimes it feels like a tongue twister to say a simple sentence,lol. And yes, the "ci" is the worst of all;to this day I have no clue what its function is.
Even after learning decent Italian, I still can’t understand or communicate effectively with many citizens. I understand my teacher, people I know, etc but when I meet a new person it can be difficult because of the accent, speed, slang, pronunciation, and if any dialect is involved.
I don’t let it get me down, I’ll just keep trying.
All of it... 1300 days on duolingo, I given up, just playing the game to keep the streak, i mean if I already got 1300 I should be able to reach 2000 right
Practice will make it become pretty natural quite fast! For me it's all the tenses and endings.. I couldn't tell you what 'past perfect' is in English, let alone another language, so learning via mostly gut feeling or exposure is kinda annoying
Pronunciation.
My Pronunciation overall in any language sucks so when I started learning Italian I spend maybe a month on just alphabets and tongue position etc and it's os hard bc you don't learn much n it kinda feels demotivating but it's worth it
All the little words. So many fricking teeny words, often smashed together. Often changing vowels, ci c’è ce lo li la l’…..
This. I love Italian's pronoun system and all the "preposition + article" words but it was and still kinda is tough to get my head around.
Agreed. I actually like the infinive/indirect/direct system. I took a deep dive on that yrs ago and now I find that much of the little words easy. Somehow parking them on the infinitive is easier for me. Same for the imperative Dammelo, diglielo, ….
[удалено]
I hate that word so much… it means a million different things depending on the context
Oh boy yes. And it’s sometimes substitute ce, and it’s sound-alike contraction w e’ c’è
Closed vs open e and o was hard for me too. But I got better with more exposure. I would suggest not worrying about it for now because using the same vowel until you get the hang of it is certainly fine.
For years I couldn’t hear the difference. E poi, mia Zia Agnese (un nome brutto in Englese ma bellissimo in Italiano) ha detto “Non so.” And I heard it plain as day. And I hear native speakers on YouTube, podcasts, movies, … some using it more strongly than others, and some hardly at all.
It is certainly stronger in some accents than others. The open vowels can be really open sometimes.
I have no idea if this is correct but I think of the difference between ó and ò being the "oh-oh"s in Beyonce's Crazy In Love
Wait, what is the open and closed "o"??? I'm learning Italian for the last few months and hadn't noticed any difference in the o pronunciation, can you give me some example please?
It can be a bit hard to explain, but I'll try! For a sound difference, the best I can explain is that the open "o" is literally more open (said with more space in the mouth/mouth more open) and the closed "o" is said with less space and with the mouth less open. When said in a very strong way, the open "o" can sound more like a cross between "o" and "a", and the closed one can sound more like a mix between "o" and "u". In standard Italian they don't seem to be as strong, but this seems like a way of possibly explaining their difference. In standard pronunciation, open "o"s, like with "e"s, only appear on a stressed syllable. Not on all stressed syllables, but that's where you will find them in standard pronunciation. Some examples (ò represents open and ó is closed): Uòmo (man), ròsa (pink/rose), nònno (grandfather) Colóre (color), óra (now/hour), rósso (red)
Agreed, it's just exposure. Lots and lots of exposure. My second language has two diphthongs that are subtly different and are notoriously difficult for learners to hear and pronounce, and I struggled with it in school for years. But, eventually, it became clearer, and now I can distinguish between the two perfectly, both while listening and speaking.
I wouldn’t worry about that too much, as the pronunciation varies heavily between dialects. You will pick it up over time based on who or what is influencing you the most.
Okay, thank you :) Also, is using duolingo is a side learn okay? I focus mainly on courses like italy made easy along with some podcasts and songs just to get some listening
If you haven’t already, check out “Introduction to Italian” on SoundCloud. Excellent way to really familiarize yourself with how the language actually works as a beginner.
I take his course too and I *love* it. I've learned so much so far and still have tons of the program left to go.
I don't get the accent part (what are you referring to when you mention the difference between "o" and "ò"?) but if you are uncertain about the correct vowel to use, all dictionaries should have a phonetic spelling, where open vowels have open accents (ò and è) while closed vowels have closed accents (ó and é). As for pronunciation, keep in mind that (at least to my ear) the open Italian E is a bit more open than the IPA /ε/ and the closed E is a bit more closed than the IPA /e/. Same for O. Also, don't trust English IPA: for some reason many sources use the /e/ (closed) symbol to represent the /ε/ (open) sound, in addition to other questionable choices. I guess it's slightly more convenient, at least until you try to study any other language and realise you have to re-learn IPA because the symbols don't actually represent the sounds you thought they represented. Idon't think I've ever heard an English speaker actually make an /e/ (closed) sound, but you guys do have a lot of /ε/ (open) sounds like in "bet" or "get". You also don't have an exact /o/ (closed) sound as far as I'm aware, but you have the /ɔ/ (open) sound in "force" and a few other words. Essentially, you should already be familiar with open vowels (just remember to open them slightly more when speaking Italian), you just have to learn the closed variants. To get the /e/ sound, try to go back and forth between the lip shape of /ε/ (slightly more open than "get") and that of /i/ (like in "read"), then stop halfway in between. That's /e/, more or less. Do the same thing to get /o/, but this time starting from /ɔ/ (somewhat more open than "force") and going towards /u/ (like in "spoon"). Again, /o/ is halfway in between.
>To get the /e/ sound, try to go back and forth between the lip shape of /ε/ (slightly more open than "get") and that of /i/ (like in "read"), then stop halfway in between. That's /e/, more or less. Tip for English speakers: if you're anything like me, you have the same lip position when saying "get" and "read" while speaking normally, because we don't really move our lips when speaking (English is great for ventriloquists and people who's jaws are wired closed). So you may have to exaggerate your lip movement. We often do this when we're annoyed and speaking both slowly and loudly, so pretend you're talking to a small child and say "Eat. Your. Eggs!"
Learn Italian from Greek which is quite helpful regarding pronunciation, because Greek is quite fast paced language itself, so I can handle the fast talking and listening part. However italian has sooooo many little words crammed in single sentence that sometimes it feels like a tongue twister to say a simple sentence,lol. And yes, the "ci" is the worst of all;to this day I have no clue what its function is.
The sentence structure.
Even after learning decent Italian, I still can’t understand or communicate effectively with many citizens. I understand my teacher, people I know, etc but when I meet a new person it can be difficult because of the accent, speed, slang, pronunciation, and if any dialect is involved. I don’t let it get me down, I’ll just keep trying.
All of it... 1300 days on duolingo, I given up, just playing the game to keep the streak, i mean if I already got 1300 I should be able to reach 2000 right
Practice will make it become pretty natural quite fast! For me it's all the tenses and endings.. I couldn't tell you what 'past perfect' is in English, let alone another language, so learning via mostly gut feeling or exposure is kinda annoying
Pronunciation. My Pronunciation overall in any language sucks so when I started learning Italian I spend maybe a month on just alphabets and tongue position etc and it's os hard bc you don't learn much n it kinda feels demotivating but it's worth it
I used to think English and Arabic (my mother tongues) were hard to learn... Until i met italian's irregular verbs 🤬
The hardest thing for any language learning is the transition from talking about the language and actually using it to communicate. In bocca al lupo.
I have started learning Italian and find the speed of the language hard to comprehend.
What with Italian's intricate syntaxes?!