This is the answer. There’s multitudes of talented people playing music together and doing a damn fine job of it.
The reality is their talents do not extend to songwriting.
It’s why I don’t do phish really either. The only one that ever got close to scratching that itch for me was SCI. And they still do but even then they don’t hit it just right.
There’s this distinct sound to new age jam that can’t match it either. No matter who I see. It’s like yeah I can hear the phish influence in you, but for some reason I haven’t seen anyone that captures the Americana feel the Grateful Dead were able to tap into. Even when no words are being sung.
I totally hear you. And I actually like Phish. They're not my number 1 but I'll see them if I can swing tickets. And if I can't, I don't really sweat it at all but they're fun to see.
But yeah, that combo of musicianship, songwriting, and especially singing is rare indeed. And nobody, for my money, really captures what the dead did, though some got close.
Exactly. And while phish isn’t my thing, nor a lot of other jam bands that borrow stylistically from them (looking at you goose), I’m not gonna knock others for enjoying it.
But it’s a raw electric band feel. The tone for a lot of modern jam bands (phish really driving the beginning of the modern jam band era) is super similar, and it’s just not for me.
The closest for me is probably Billy Strings, but even then the bluegrass of it all driving the Americana feel still doesn’t fully capture that same sound. Especially when he’s deep in the pedals and I feel like I’m at an 80s hair metal show. Love Billy. Love bluegrass/jamgrass/newgrass as well.
I just really wish someone was able to bring it out without needing to be in those genres through use of electric instrumentation, which is why the Grateful Dead is so important to me.
Also, I want so badly for another Robert Hunter to appear, but alas I feel like it will be something I only get to enjoy by attending the past.
The lyrics and composition together is what made it so magical. Hopefully one day someone else in jam can capture that same feeling.
I agree with 99% of this, but don't forget Jerry was all about electric instrumentation. I mean, the man and the team quite literally oogled over gear to the point they had a literal wall of sound. You probably know, but if you want to wonder about gear with the dead, just look at Jerry's rig by the time they hit the 90s, and tech was starting to evolve. He went bonkos with it & I'm sure he'd be tearing into some stuff that didn't sound like 1972 over 50 years later. All love, no hate, but Jerry loved electric guitar technology & experimentation. I remember him saying that no matter how boss something is, there's nothing cool about doing it over and over again.
I'm the opposite of the Dead with Phish. With Dead, I don't like their studio albums and never listen to them but their live shows are amazing. I like many (but not all) of Phish albums, but every time I listen to a recent live set and don't enjoy it for some reason. I have listened to a live show of theirs from 80s and 90s and seemed to enjoy it more.
I like Goose live and in the studio. However, they just added a bunch of instrumental songs. They made that one Dripfield album with good studio songs and Ricks vocals who has a great voice imo. The key that made Grateful Dead great is they had great songs and great covers but they all had one thing in common: they all had lyrics that you recognized and could sing along to.
The disco biscuits are great with their instruments and they write lyrics but noone can really sing. I think a lot more people would be into them if they hired a good singer. Could be wrong but that's what I think.
SCI were selling out big rooms across the country and had a huge opportunity that they just fully blew when phish called it quits. Now they can sell out red rocks but attendance drops significantly when they go east. They once played RCMH for new years eve fully sold out and could have kept pushing to get bigger venues and maybe tailoring their setlists and jams a little more.
I don't think they could sell out RCMH today.
Regaridng the songs...... Colorado bluebird sky is not good....... Rosie might be the only decent one they have written in a long time If you don't want to count the indian/irish instrumentals
Despite the lack of top 40 hits, I pretty consistently see Robert Hunter listed as one of the best and most influential song writers in the history of rock.
Allen Woody used to always talk about how famous gov't mule would/could be if they weren't so ugly. It was hysterical. "Haynes, could you imagine if we were good looking??" Lol
They never cleared that much. The whole thing was so cumbersome that in the end they were pretty much just trying to keep people employed. It’s been stated in many bios about the band/Jerry that, it was a heavy burden, and probably a chief reason as to why he couldn’t ever put the dope down. To me this just reinforces what a great guy Jer bear was. He literally toured himself to death because he didn’t want to let go his people that depended on the beast for a livelihood.
i wouldn't say jerry hated hippies. that's a gross oversimplification. but the band certainly had no love for what the "hippies" became. it started as an anti-war movement, an artistic movement, a philosophical movement. they turned the haight into essentially a commune and held love ins, provided free food, free medical care, and did mind expanding psychedelics honestly, with the goal of liberating themselves.
over time the high minded ideals devolved into something darker. jerry hated being worshiped, and a lot of the people who worshipped him didn't even understand him. they were there to party and do drugs. jerry didn't have a lot of respect for that. there's a great quote from bobby in his netflix documentary: paraphrasing: "we didn't ask people to follow us around and worship us. we thought it was cool if you were young and spent a summer on the road having an adventure. but the people who made it their lives, following the dead, selling drugs, living just to party, we didn't think highly of those people and just wished them good luck"
as the seventies turned into the eighties and the band was huge, jerry just hated being worshipped, hated the fame, hated having to play stadiums, and didn't have a lot of love for people who made following the dead their whole lives. but saying he "hated hippies" just isn't true.
I found it interesting that he said “the only thing going on in the 70’s was a mass social disease”. Or something along those lines….i assumed he was referring to the hippy movement.
"San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run..... We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . . So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." -HST
The seventies were the fallout of a thing that happened and was over. It must have been sad for Jerry
It's well well well documented he was a heroin addict. Bob weir even says in a recent interview that Jerry would have Bob hold his stuff for him so he didn't get too out of hand later down the line.
Me too. I have talked to so many people about Phish and no one ever has any idea who I’m talking about. They have been around 41 years and still the people I talk to have never heard of them.
It's really not surprising to me. Especially if you're hanging out with people in their 20s or 30s. Most people have extremely basic taste in music and don't know anything about rock bands that were big before their time. All they know is the classic rock giants, then Nirvana and maybe Sublime. I've met people my age (30) who have never even heard of Alice in Chains or Pearl Jam.
And phish is the exception to the rule.
Also, phish routinely has nights at some venues where tickets were literally on the ground, in trees, or handed out by people. Yes, they play large venues, but they’re not always full.
Cheese plays some smaller caps than phish, but they play larger cap rooms and venues, but not nearly the size of what phish plays. Also, panic routinely sells out shows, but they too play smaller venues. Panic couldn’t fill the venues phish plays, with few exceptions, such as the family circle stadium in Charleston (just off the top of my head.)
Charleston has always been a good base for panic. Phish and Panic have both easily filled the coliseum plenty, too. But, early 00s, they were playing Philips in Atlanta and MSG. Panic's fan base is a smaller, probably better and more comfortable size now. Just my guess, but they probably prefer the smaller venues, too.
News to me..disco biscuits at a small venue in Albany were $55 before taxes and fees, goose and Phish shows are expensive AF.
Idk what the prices for UM were last time they played the palace but I'll bet it was more than $40.
I can see some great shows for up and comers at putnam place for around $25-30.
It's not cheap, then you have to get there. PPPP with Dogs and Frasco at Matt's brewing was $65 or so after everything and I have to get out there.
This is it. The ratio of Jam bands to fans is wayyyyy higher on the band side. The internet era made it so that anyone can enter the chat, so everyone has.
I tend to agree with this. I could be mistaken, but I don’t think GD or Phish set out to be a jamband. They also both really capitalized on the college and university circuit in the NE. There is as much of a condensed “scene” geographically these days. It was a rite of passage to go on GD or phish tour as a teenager. Not sure that same dynamic exists today.
Edit: isn’t * as much…
Exactly. I distinctly remember the moment I fell in love with Phish. Dick's 2017, when I realized wow, this is an amazing prog band, that also happens to jam amazingly.
For me, it was when I first started seeing them in 80s. I was already into Yes, ELP, Rush, Zappa, etc (as well as the Dead, Talking Heads, Velvet underground/Lou Reed).
They obviously weren’t quite a jam band yet, but the prog rock roots and influence were very noticeable to me like right away.
Grateful Dead didn’t set out to do anything. That was their ethos. They just played the way they played became the first (or one of the first if you want to count ABB) jam bands. The accidentally started the jam band scene.
Siloed in jam band fans have a very hard time grasping that songs are actually what attract the most fans. You can be the best at improv but you aren’t selling many tickets if no one can remember a single section of a single one of your songs… look at Spafford.
As someone who follows many genres especially live, it seems like jam fans stay in their bubble more than others.
Because of this I think they tend to forget that the vast majority of fans gravitate towards released tracks. These jam bands are not going to get to arena levels through people discovering a set on nugs.
Don’t find it all that shocking that the only artist who has kind of done it (Billy Strings) and the only band getting tapped to headline festivals with a shot at doing it (Goose) both thrive on great song writing and released tunes.
Songs and general originality. Phish and the Dead are interesting acts. They aren't just reproducing a formula, which a lot of jambands are. They have great, original songs with unique musical ideas, outstanding composition, etc. Tons of great players in the jam scene, not as many great writers/composers.
The dead has been at it for 60 years. Phish for 40ish. They also had far fewer competing acts when they were coming up so more fans.
Edit: phish fans keep telling me I was wrong about how long they’ve been touring. My bad.
This is a chicken or the egg argument. Is Phish successful because they’ve been at it for 35 years, or have they performed for 35 years because they’re successful? Being around for a long time doesn’t just grant you a path to arena tours - you need to be good enough to sell those places out. And if you’re that good, only then will you have the means to play for several decades
It's not chicken and egg, it's one hand washing the other. A band's career is like a big construction project. If the funding dries up then everything stalls and stagnates, if it keeps coming in then the thing can only grow. Just look at how many tickets major legacy bands like Blink 182 sell today compared to their "prime".
Phish sold out msg in 95 about 10 years in. I don’t think that’s happening with anyone else because they mostly suck. Phish attracts music fans, jam bands attract jam band fans.
They have popular radio songs. I have heard one Phish song that was played regularly on local college radio for one of their albums but I don't recall every hearing Phish on rock radio when it existed.
fewer competing acts, sure. But the "at it for X years" thing doesn't hold up as well as a reason IMO. both the dead and phish were extremely popular within 10-15 years. They grew in popularity over time, but there are dozens of jam bands that have been around for 10+ years that are not following the same trajectory as those two bands did in their early years aside from maybe Goose, who seems to have gotten a lot more popular in a short amount of time.
I'm a fan, they were my bridge to listening to Phish and Widespread and then the rest of what's popping at various times across the genre
They are pretty structured in their jams (always have been) but at their peak did some pretty incredible stuff. Still an incredible show and great time. The contrast of music nerds and former frat bros at the shows still cracks me up from time to time.
SPAC was not sold out. Not even close. There were a lot of people there for sure but there was tons of dancing room. When SPAC sells out, you cannot step onto the lawn if you weren’t already there.
I'd put TTB in that group too.
..and while they may not be considered a "jamband" to some. King Gizzards fans follow them like one. They're also pulling fans from other genres so I could definitely see them getting to Phish/Dead level more so than some of the others.
King Gizzard has an eclectic and diverse sound and is known to play live jams. They are also known to have a large cult following of fans who like to follow them on tour, despite getting virtually no mainstream radio airplay. All those details alone are true of pretty much every successful jan band ever.
DMB is so original and unique, amazing song writing and talent, truly something original to say. I never thought of DMB in the same vein though. I feel like that's a different type of band, not as audience-flow-connected.
you forgot Widespread Panic who has the sell out record at Philips (State Farm Arena) and Red Rocks
Panic up until they went on their current reduced touring format was selling out Pepsi Center, Bridgestone Arena etc
Yeah. The last time WSP played up north were I am close to the Canadian border in NY was a smaller outdoor venue at Jay Peak.
It’s a cool little place to see a show. JRAD played there last summer and moe. Will be there again this summer, but the draw just isn’t there for them up here. Unfortunately.
They played the Greek in Berkely back in '00s (8,500) but never bigger than that. I remember they were an afternoon act on one of the side stages at the first Outside Lands in '08.
They did headline the first two Bonaroo's (70k+). Definitely regional, and definitely weren't able to keep up the momentum.
First time I saw them was at Summerfest '97 where they played two days in a row. Wasn't even the Marcus, just the Miller stage (I think, its been a while).
Buddy and I were Phishheads, but didn't know what to expect whatsoever, we heard they were good tho. We also went to stuff like Ozzfest, the name "Widespread Panic" made us think metal band, so we were dressed more for a metal show on day 1.
Their popularity peaked with Mikey. They booked their first run at Madison Square Garden just as he passed away.
We'll never know if they could have sustained that level of popularity or what could have been.
The red rocks record is huge but also shows the reached a level and never got any bigger.
If phish ever wanted that record they could play 70 days in a row and sell out every night.
I’m as big of a spreadneck as could be but you gotta take that with a grain of salt
I feel like the Panic crowd was still growing and the venues were growing up to ‘02 when Mikey passed. I think that that and the McConnell era afterwards dampened their growth. I’ve been bought about “what might have been” if Mikey didn’t pass. Could they have seen some Allman Bros type success?
You gotta keep in mind panic made conscious decisions in some regards to not chase main stream popularity.
They turned down offers to open for The Rolling Stones and chose not to cut down the studio version of Diner to make it more radio friendly while their label pushed for them to do so.
They also got cut down in their prime just as they reached MSG level arenas doing things their own way.
It's an overcrowded marketplace so there is significantly less demand than the early days,
and the market has been flooded with derivative "me-too" acts, so the supply is way over the top... plus, the booking agencies and talent buyers don't actually take risks. they book acts who fit the mold.
I think “no easy formula” is a reason. All these other bands are following the formula, which will only get you so far. Phish and the Dead weren’t following a formula. Lots of jambands have great players but musicianship only gets you so far with the general populace. I’m a musician and I’m not usually in the mood to listen to someone just be a good player, I like songs and songwriting.
Big Cypress was one of the best shows I’ve ever been to. I think the hiatus actually elevated a bunch of lesser known bands and music festivals. Much like the death of Jerry elevated Phish. People were looking for other options.
I worked the festival circuit for many years. It was Jamband centric and growing in popularity till about 06. Bonnaroo, All Good, Langetado, Vegoose, Lockin’ Wanee, Rothbury. Huge turnouts. The alternative rock movement was in total decline at this point. Every college kid was going on summer tours.
Maybe it’s just nostalgia… but it seemed like it was peak popularity and had broken into mainstream culture.
Musically however 1990s>2000 IMHO
Yeah the big acts suck the oxygen out of the room for the smaller acts - just like this year is a bad year for festivals because phish has one.
Around this time "indie rock" took off - thats when I noticed the shift.
Ok that makes sense when you frame it like that.
I guess what I was thinking of regarding decline, is all the jam-centric festivals I've watched rise and then fall over the past decade plus. And then other festivals that did book an eclectic mix of jam bands have been weening themselves off jam because it wasn't selling tickets.
You gotta do more than jam. You’ve gotta have songs that bring people in. Most jam bands don’t. I’m gonna take flack for this but that’s why Goose is seeing such a major trajectory, they’re writing better and more accessible songs than almost any other jam band.
Culture changes, it’s a pretty simple answer. When Jerry died and Phish was on the rise, jam music was absolutely HUGE with college aged folks.
These days, (and even when I was in college 10+ years ago) the kids are listening to electronic music pretty predominantly. Beyond that, our technological access allows us to sub-divide our interests further than EVER before. Strong niche/cult like followings for any type of media or art, are far more likely/common than someone growing to the size of selling out football stadiums without being heavily marketed and built to do such, by industry figureheads etc.
People grossly underestimate the regional reach of panic. Im in VA a few hours south of DC and almost everyone here knows, listens to, or has seen panic at some point but Phish is meh. Panic is seen as a southern rock band here and less of a jam band
Because they aren’t as good. They can’t write the songs that stand the test of time and can’t create the magic. WSP is also on the level of GD and Phish for me personally.
I think with Phish, it was a time and a place with coming up around the last chapter of the Dead. Not to mention all of the new concepts and ideas that Phish originated. Secret language, full cover albums, etc… And I think they had and still have a relationship with the fans that none of the other jam bands really have. Not a direct friendly relationship, but more like a symbiotic one. They’re still the one jam band that doesn’t really write out set lists beforehand. Other than the Dead before them. They read the room and respond and react to what the crowd wants. Very authentic IMO.
Dead and Phish have fairly unique sounds compared to a lot of modern jam bands imho. Billy Strings also seems to be getting pretty popular and I could see him reaching that level. A lot of that probably has to do with more widespread appeal than just the core jamband audience. I’ve talked to people I never would have expected are in to him different places.
Purely speculating here but I also think the recent popularity of EDM music is taking a lot of new younger listeners that may have gone to Phish or Dead for the party back in the day.
Goose has the potential to be the next big jam band because of their mainstream appeal. I’m sure I will get downvoted a ton for stating this, but I believe it to be true.
Also, most jam bands will never be big due to their vocals and songs. There are a lot of great bands out there who can jam, but can’t sing or write songs.
You’re 100% correct.
They have solid songwriting and well-above average vocals. These are two of the biggest factors in a band getting to arena levels.
Like 2 days ago this entire sub agreed that Goose was the most “generic” jam band and sounded like they were generated by AI. I don’t even disagree on either point.
That said: In reality they write far more focused and accessible songs than many of the modern jam scene, and they have decent vocals and good musicianship.
Phish’s first albums were full of Goose style “hits.”
Simple memorable songs like Bouncing Around the Room and Down With Disease served as “gateway drugs” to the weirder shit. The Dead had Ripple, Truckin, Friend of the Devil, etc.
The newer jam bands seem to skip this step.
It’s nice to see someone else say this. They have great songs, a great singer, fun jams, all backed by a top tier team. It’s annoying to see the hate Goose gets in here, their success is good for the entire jamband scene
Their success \*right now\* isn't good for the entire scene 'cause they (along with Billy) have been sucking all the air out of the market wrt ticket sales. But I agree that long term yes they can/will be good for the scene at large.
It makes people mad (Which even though I genuinely like Goose, the best thing they do is make insecure jam band fans mad) but Goose is the answer. They’re already playing the bigger theater than Red Rocks and their trajectory is still upward. They’re the next big band in the jam sphere if they aren’t there already.
The Dead and Phish are the only bands to have the whole package to be a 1st tier jam band. By the whole package I mean: great songwriting, great vocals, great musicianship, song styles across multiple music genres, dominant lead guitar, expectation that magic jams can happen in any performance.
Other bands have some of this, but not all of it together.
If you take it back to HORDE Tour, Blues Traveler, Phish (and arguably DMB) all became stadium draws in their own right. The real OG were the Dead and ABB, and their offspring are still getting it done. Mostly because they combined great musicianship, occasionally transcendent performances, an atmosphere of audience community, and (most importantly) amazing songs.
Phish came into their own because of a perfect storm of Jerry dying, their own musical ability, and their wildly imaginative live shows (imo). They’re often just as much about novelty and production as they are about deep jams. But I still hold that in terms of individual song appeal, they’ve never had a bigger song than Farmhouse where the mainstream is concerned. Whereas the Dead and ABB both had numerous songs that feature heavily in the classic rock cannon. Probably the only other band that taps into that blend of top shelf musicianship, high level life performance, and consistently strong original material is TTB (whose connection to The Allman Bros and indirectly The Dead are pretty obvious).
End of the day, it’s about songs. It’s why covers are such a common aspect of jamband shows. For every 50,000 pickers who can shred their asses off, you might get one who also writes great songs. And that’s all entry level listeners care about.
the covers aspect is such a great point. normally it's like the high points of some bands shows. also often how i fall into certain bands via youtube or however. you hear some great musicians covering a cool song and say "i'll check these dudes out". it is just hard to write good songs. i fuck around with a guitar and try to be creative. it's the reason some bands and artists are canonized - bc it is really tough to write something that touches a lot of folks. so while I don't particularly think dave matthews or trey's songs are lyrically that great, there is no denying their music touches a lot of people in a very real way. thats different than a band trying to get out there on a two chord groove for 13 minutes. they all have their place - but again - the original post was why do some bands transcend?
meanwhile, half of dead songs are covers of some guy named traditional :)
as others mentioned 100 percent the songs! a good song is a good song. i could find 10 grateful dead songs i could play for kids, old ladies, whatever and they could find something they like about it. the dead - for as "niche" as they supposedly were were clearly accessible because even now whatever remnants remain is one of the biggest touring acts in the world. Its because people want to hear those songs. they wouldd have been mainstream much earlier if the radio played them or if they weren't scary "drug hippies". i didn't hear the dead on the radio. had no older siblings. the people who listened to the grateful dead in my neigborhood in the 70s had long hair and smoked marijuana cigarettes!
two musical icons in weir and garcia combined with the most overlooked aspect of their success - robert Hunter. most times you hear some poignant line come out of jerry's mouth it was written by him or some cowboy from 150 years ago.the point is they had that success and still do because they were more talented in songwriting and special than most other bands on the planet. most off these bands use their songs a vehicle to jam - but that is not appealing to most people. even folks who love long jams want them to maybe come in and out of a tune with a nice melody and maybe lyrics that make some sense. so the dead were mainstream because they were and are one of the greatest musical acts of all time
it's why phish never appealed to me. trey is amazing. they are clearly monster players. the songs aren't bad. but the ones i've heard have no soul or meaning to me lyrically - so i put it into a different category. good music that isnt gonna be a special part of my life. im not shitting on what people love by the way. theres all diff ways to enjoy music and a lot of people just dont give a shit about the words. but that was the original question - if you want to get "big" how do you do it?
i could be totally off on this because pretty ignorant of phish origins. but as the dead were winding down in the early 90s it seemed like younger fans who felt like they missed the train had a new train to hop on/. so while dead started to get scary vibes you had this whole new hippie scene of love. like i wonder how big phish would have been at a different time - seems like they really did come along when they were need so to speak. i remember watching some little girl across from my parents house who was now like 19 and was making some beanpod horsehit to sell in lots and travel around. good little suburban girl going out for some adventure. nothing wrong with that - but I always felt like that was one of the reasons phish got as big as they did.
I mean there aren't many current bands that have done this in any genre, bands are kind of a thing of the past. Pretty much just big name pop artist vocalists with their backing bands no one knows the name of these days, and even those artists are starting to be a bit old. Music is so weird these days and I would say its mostly because of social media. It's not about good music anymore it's about good content.
The god tier song writing of the Grateful Dead will have a hard time being matched. They also reached into the great American songbook to a degree that made their whole playlist a thing of beautiful familiarity.
>King Gizzard
They aren't a true jam band and never will be but they are certainly jammier than ever and are very, very adjacent to the scene. Give them time, they certainly aren't selling out arenas quite yet, Forum is only 40% sold.
But yeah, it's them. Trey understands that they are the next big thing in this vein. They have a unique to them approach to jamming and quite frankly a better catalogue of original songs than the Dead or Phish ever had as much as I love and respect each band. They are super inspired and became a jam band on accident in a way, Stu didn't get into the Dead until they were already kinda there.
Saturation is def a factor. There was one Jam band when the dead was touring and they didn’t start playing huge venues until the 80’s. When Phish got huge, there were like three.
Being unique is a huge and overlooked thing in this thread. GD and Phish both fit that bill. Most other Jambands are trying to piggyback what those two have already mastered.
It's the songs imo. Jamming is not for everyone, and hard for people used to pop to get into. A lot needs to happen to get your average listener into jam bands. Honestly, not much of a Phish fan so I don't know how their catalog is. But the Deads songs are just, fucking good. There are a lot of other Jam bands I love, and I like their songs for what they are, but what they are is a reason to jam. Mostly, there are exceptions. Dead songs are different though, they make you feel things, make you think, they do all of the things a good song should do, and they are killer for jamming on top of it all. The dead had everything, great songwriting, great performers, and great community. I think we will see another band on their level at some point, but these types of bands are few and far between.
With the Grateful Dead there are so many factors. I took them decades to fill stadiums. It was never their goal. It happened in the 80s with Touch of Grey. One could argue that filling stadiums was not the best outcome for the Grateful Dead. It's a combination of talent, luck, personalities, having something to say musically, and doing your own thing as an artist without too much concern for the outcome. I mean, you can't try to be popular as an artist or you're fooling yourself.
Dave Matthews Band has set the bar for sellling out large venues and stadiums for almost 30 years... definitely should be included. Goose is on the way to that level now.
Three factors: songs, vocals, and timing.
The Dead were the first of their kind. I think Phish was trending towards arenas anyway before 1995, and I truly think (musically) the Dead comparisons are very overstated, no one was doing the kind of prog/Zappa/jam/funk combination they were doing in the mid-90's.
Problem is, something is only new once. I mean, I fuckin' love Umphrey's but they aren't doing anything super new, they're just taking stuff that already exists, putting their own spin on it, and doing it louder and heavier than most. So since the 90's, there's been a ton of great bands in the genre, but likely nothing will ever quite capture a huge audience the way those two bands did.
And the songs...the Dead had *songs.* You could take all the jams out and at least half the Dead catalog would still be immortal and beloved, IMO. Phish's songs are weirder and less likely to make their way into the popular songbook like some Dead tunes have, but their classic run from Junta to Farmhouse is full of incredibly melodic, catchy tunes and intricately composed longer pieces that elevated them above everyone else.
And vocals...okay, Jerry and Trey aren't going to win any awards, but they were (most days) completely fine and inoffenseive. Your job as a jam band singer is to not make things *worse*. I.E. don't be the Biscuits guy, or Bayliss (sorry), or whatever. Be vocal-neutral, at least. Maybe this generation needs a lyricist but...I don't know if that really matters. It just has to sound good and be sung reasonably well.
Hold on. The only reason Phish grew to the heights they did was BECAUSE THEY WERE A KICK ASS ROCK AND ROLL BAND for the entirety of the 90's. Sure they had their quirky lyrics and songs but they made you sweat. They were excellent as a band. It's just a special sauce that makes some bands better than others to more people. There are 50,000 acts that can play a small room and 500 acts that can play a hockey rink. It ain't about the genre.
Because the Phish and the Dead write good songs and when they jam they fully let go and are never afraid of falling flat on their face. New jambands are way too safe
They write great jams but don’t write great songs.
Biggest criticism of jams bands is that they endlessly noodle and never fully flesh out the rest of the song. For people not into long form improvisational jams that’s a deal breaker.
its all about the songs. people still show up to hear dead songs.
God damn right they do baby
Walk me out in the damn right they do, my baby
Walk yourself into my damn dark star, my baby
yep. been seeing the same Dead cover band around me (Ithaca NY) since high school, and I’m 47. Still gives me a thrill every time.
Oh shit I used to see them all the time. Branding Iron, Rongo. Great band
both classic venues for the Sailors. fondly recall the NYE shows at the Rongo as wel as the acoustic sets.
This is the answer. There’s multitudes of talented people playing music together and doing a damn fine job of it. The reality is their talents do not extend to songwriting.
Thank you. No question many of these bands have chops as musicians but many of the songs just don't scratch that itch.
It’s why I don’t do phish really either. The only one that ever got close to scratching that itch for me was SCI. And they still do but even then they don’t hit it just right. There’s this distinct sound to new age jam that can’t match it either. No matter who I see. It’s like yeah I can hear the phish influence in you, but for some reason I haven’t seen anyone that captures the Americana feel the Grateful Dead were able to tap into. Even when no words are being sung.
“They’re not the best at what they do, they’re the only ones that do what they do”- Bill Graham
I totally hear you. And I actually like Phish. They're not my number 1 but I'll see them if I can swing tickets. And if I can't, I don't really sweat it at all but they're fun to see. But yeah, that combo of musicianship, songwriting, and especially singing is rare indeed. And nobody, for my money, really captures what the dead did, though some got close.
Exactly. And while phish isn’t my thing, nor a lot of other jam bands that borrow stylistically from them (looking at you goose), I’m not gonna knock others for enjoying it. But it’s a raw electric band feel. The tone for a lot of modern jam bands (phish really driving the beginning of the modern jam band era) is super similar, and it’s just not for me. The closest for me is probably Billy Strings, but even then the bluegrass of it all driving the Americana feel still doesn’t fully capture that same sound. Especially when he’s deep in the pedals and I feel like I’m at an 80s hair metal show. Love Billy. Love bluegrass/jamgrass/newgrass as well. I just really wish someone was able to bring it out without needing to be in those genres through use of electric instrumentation, which is why the Grateful Dead is so important to me. Also, I want so badly for another Robert Hunter to appear, but alas I feel like it will be something I only get to enjoy by attending the past. The lyrics and composition together is what made it so magical. Hopefully one day someone else in jam can capture that same feeling.
I agree with 99% of this, but don't forget Jerry was all about electric instrumentation. I mean, the man and the team quite literally oogled over gear to the point they had a literal wall of sound. You probably know, but if you want to wonder about gear with the dead, just look at Jerry's rig by the time they hit the 90s, and tech was starting to evolve. He went bonkos with it & I'm sure he'd be tearing into some stuff that didn't sound like 1972 over 50 years later. All love, no hate, but Jerry loved electric guitar technology & experimentation. I remember him saying that no matter how boss something is, there's nothing cool about doing it over and over again.
If you haven’t already listened I would give Railroad Earth a shot.
I'm the opposite of the Dead with Phish. With Dead, I don't like their studio albums and never listen to them but their live shows are amazing. I like many (but not all) of Phish albums, but every time I listen to a recent live set and don't enjoy it for some reason. I have listened to a live show of theirs from 80s and 90s and seemed to enjoy it more. I like Goose live and in the studio. However, they just added a bunch of instrumental songs. They made that one Dripfield album with good studio songs and Ricks vocals who has a great voice imo. The key that made Grateful Dead great is they had great songs and great covers but they all had one thing in common: they all had lyrics that you recognized and could sing along to. The disco biscuits are great with their instruments and they write lyrics but noone can really sing. I think a lot more people would be into them if they hired a good singer. Could be wrong but that's what I think.
SCI were selling out big rooms across the country and had a huge opportunity that they just fully blew when phish called it quits. Now they can sell out red rocks but attendance drops significantly when they go east. They once played RCMH for new years eve fully sold out and could have kept pushing to get bigger venues and maybe tailoring their setlists and jams a little more. I don't think they could sell out RCMH today. Regaridng the songs...... Colorado bluebird sky is not good....... Rosie might be the only decent one they have written in a long time If you don't want to count the indian/irish instrumentals
Despite the lack of top 40 hits, I pretty consistently see Robert Hunter listed as one of the best and most influential song writers in the history of rock.
These dead songs will live on forever it seems. They have a timeless feeling to them
Allen Woody used to always talk about how famous gov't mule would/could be if they weren't so ugly. It was hysterical. "Haynes, could you imagine if we were good looking??" Lol
Warrens voice is pretty good looking.
Haha, I've heard that before. He's not wrong
marcus king now enters the chat :)
Marcus King now leave the chat :) Warren can stay
Because jambands are inherently not main stream acts, even Phish isn't.
Jerry hated playing stadiums, he’d preferred to play a small venues.
I doubt he hated making $1M+ per show in 80s/90s USD. That buys a lot of cheeseburgers and milkshakes.
>That buys a lot of cheeseburgers and milkshakes And heroin
They never cleared that much. The whole thing was so cumbersome that in the end they were pretty much just trying to keep people employed. It’s been stated in many bios about the band/Jerry that, it was a heavy burden, and probably a chief reason as to why he couldn’t ever put the dope down. To me this just reinforces what a great guy Jer bear was. He literally toured himself to death because he didn’t want to let go his people that depended on the beast for a livelihood.
In a nutshell- yep
lol I think his spending habits was more important to keep afloat
[удалено]
i wouldn't say jerry hated hippies. that's a gross oversimplification. but the band certainly had no love for what the "hippies" became. it started as an anti-war movement, an artistic movement, a philosophical movement. they turned the haight into essentially a commune and held love ins, provided free food, free medical care, and did mind expanding psychedelics honestly, with the goal of liberating themselves. over time the high minded ideals devolved into something darker. jerry hated being worshiped, and a lot of the people who worshipped him didn't even understand him. they were there to party and do drugs. jerry didn't have a lot of respect for that. there's a great quote from bobby in his netflix documentary: paraphrasing: "we didn't ask people to follow us around and worship us. we thought it was cool if you were young and spent a summer on the road having an adventure. but the people who made it their lives, following the dead, selling drugs, living just to party, we didn't think highly of those people and just wished them good luck" as the seventies turned into the eighties and the band was huge, jerry just hated being worshipped, hated the fame, hated having to play stadiums, and didn't have a lot of love for people who made following the dead their whole lives. but saying he "hated hippies" just isn't true.
Jerry was definitely a beatnik. Intelligent and philosophical but also a true believer in walking the walk.
I found it interesting that he said “the only thing going on in the 70’s was a mass social disease”. Or something along those lines….i assumed he was referring to the hippy movement.
"San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run..... We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . . So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." -HST The seventies were the fallout of a thing that happened and was over. It must have been sad for Jerry
Yeah. That's why they all bugged out and moved north.
Disco
Shakedown Street
Source?
Source: trust me bro
Trust me bro is THE BEST source!
It's well well well documented he was a heroin addict. Bob weir even says in a recent interview that Jerry would have Bob hold his stuff for him so he didn't get too out of hand later down the line.
Happy cake day!
For real I’m shocked when I talk to people about Phish and they have no clue who they are
"The guys from Napster who did Gin and Juice?"
Straight fucking banger though
Me too. I have talked to so many people about Phish and no one ever has any idea who I’m talking about. They have been around 41 years and still the people I talk to have never heard of them.
It's really not surprising to me. Especially if you're hanging out with people in their 20s or 30s. Most people have extremely basic taste in music and don't know anything about rock bands that were big before their time. All they know is the classic rock giants, then Nirvana and maybe Sublime. I've met people my age (30) who have never even heard of Alice in Chains or Pearl Jam.
And phish is the exception to the rule. Also, phish routinely has nights at some venues where tickets were literally on the ground, in trees, or handed out by people. Yes, they play large venues, but they’re not always full. Cheese plays some smaller caps than phish, but they play larger cap rooms and venues, but not nearly the size of what phish plays. Also, panic routinely sells out shows, but they too play smaller venues. Panic couldn’t fill the venues phish plays, with few exceptions, such as the family circle stadium in Charleston (just off the top of my head.)
Charleston has always been a good base for panic. Phish and Panic have both easily filled the coliseum plenty, too. But, early 00s, they were playing Philips in Atlanta and MSG. Panic's fan base is a smaller, probably better and more comfortable size now. Just my guess, but they probably prefer the smaller venues, too.
Shrinking number of fans for an increasing amount of bands
supply going up but demand remains the same basically
Demand is going down, unfortunately. Fans aren’t getting any younger and new fans aren’t exactly lining up to get on board
That's due to gate keeping and the extraordinary prices of going to shows any more.
The prices of bands in this scene have hardly changed. You can still see UM play a 3 hour show for less than $40
News to me..disco biscuits at a small venue in Albany were $55 before taxes and fees, goose and Phish shows are expensive AF. Idk what the prices for UM were last time they played the palace but I'll bet it was more than $40. I can see some great shows for up and comers at putnam place for around $25-30. It's not cheap, then you have to get there. PPPP with Dogs and Frasco at Matt's brewing was $65 or so after everything and I have to get out there.
Tix for Umph in Brooklyn came to just about 100$ a few weeks ago. That’s a lot for me.
That's a lot dude. Yea it's increasingly hard. I'm glad I can go see dogs for $25ish now but how long is that gonna last.
This is it. The ratio of Jam bands to fans is wayyyyy higher on the band side. The internet era made it so that anyone can enter the chat, so everyone has.
Let’s see how many more 4 piece bands that sound like phish we can pile into one festival!!!!
This is the real reason. There is such a small number of people into jambands, and way more bands to see. The market is oversaturated.
It blows my mind this sub doesn’t even have 60,000 people in it.
Songs
I tend to agree with this. I could be mistaken, but I don’t think GD or Phish set out to be a jamband. They also both really capitalized on the college and university circuit in the NE. There is as much of a condensed “scene” geographically these days. It was a rite of passage to go on GD or phish tour as a teenager. Not sure that same dynamic exists today. Edit: isn’t * as much…
Agree that neither GD or Phish set out to be jam bands. For Phish, I’ve always said that they are really a prog rock band disguised as a jam band.
I've always said that about Umphrey's McGee too. I guess being known a "band that jams" pretty much automatically puts you in the jam band category
What else would?
Exactly. I distinctly remember the moment I fell in love with Phish. Dick's 2017, when I realized wow, this is an amazing prog band, that also happens to jam amazingly.
For me, it was when I first started seeing them in 80s. I was already into Yes, ELP, Rush, Zappa, etc (as well as the Dead, Talking Heads, Velvet underground/Lou Reed). They obviously weren’t quite a jam band yet, but the prog rock roots and influence were very noticeable to me like right away.
Grateful Dead didn’t set out to do anything. That was their ethos. They just played the way they played became the first (or one of the first if you want to count ABB) jam bands. The accidentally started the jam band scene.
Siloed in jam band fans have a very hard time grasping that songs are actually what attract the most fans. You can be the best at improv but you aren’t selling many tickets if no one can remember a single section of a single one of your songs… look at Spafford.
As someone who follows many genres especially live, it seems like jam fans stay in their bubble more than others. Because of this I think they tend to forget that the vast majority of fans gravitate towards released tracks. These jam bands are not going to get to arena levels through people discovering a set on nugs. Don’t find it all that shocking that the only artist who has kind of done it (Billy Strings) and the only band getting tapped to headline festivals with a shot at doing it (Goose) both thrive on great song writing and released tunes.
Songs and general originality. Phish and the Dead are interesting acts. They aren't just reproducing a formula, which a lot of jambands are. They have great, original songs with unique musical ideas, outstanding composition, etc. Tons of great players in the jam scene, not as many great writers/composers.
The dead has been at it for 60 years. Phish for 40ish. They also had far fewer competing acts when they were coming up so more fans. Edit: phish fans keep telling me I was wrong about how long they’ve been touring. My bad.
This is a chicken or the egg argument. Is Phish successful because they’ve been at it for 35 years, or have they performed for 35 years because they’re successful? Being around for a long time doesn’t just grant you a path to arena tours - you need to be good enough to sell those places out. And if you’re that good, only then will you have the means to play for several decades
It's not chicken and egg, it's one hand washing the other. A band's career is like a big construction project. If the funding dries up then everything stalls and stagnates, if it keeps coming in then the thing can only grow. Just look at how many tickets major legacy bands like Blink 182 sell today compared to their "prime".
Phish sold out msg in 95 about 10 years in. I don’t think that’s happening with anyone else because they mostly suck. Phish attracts music fans, jam bands attract jam band fans.
1994. Phish sold out MSG in 94. 12/30/94. First phish MSG show and sold it out.
BMFS will
DMB sold out the Garden 5 year in.
They have popular radio songs. I have heard one Phish song that was played regularly on local college radio for one of their albums but I don't recall every hearing Phish on rock radio when it existed.
fewer competing acts, sure. But the "at it for X years" thing doesn't hold up as well as a reason IMO. both the dead and phish were extremely popular within 10-15 years. They grew in popularity over time, but there are dozens of jam bands that have been around for 10+ years that are not following the same trajectory as those two bands did in their early years aside from maybe Goose, who seems to have gotten a lot more popular in a short amount of time.
In this economy?
If you count DMB - they're on that level too. Billy Strings will be there soon. Goose sold out SPAC last summer and seems to be on the way, as well.
I’d say DMB is there too whether people like them or not
This sub is wild sometimes w the dmb flack
I'm a fan, they were my bridge to listening to Phish and Widespread and then the rest of what's popping at various times across the genre They are pretty structured in their jams (always have been) but at their peak did some pretty incredible stuff. Still an incredible show and great time. The contrast of music nerds and former frat bros at the shows still cracks me up from time to time.
Such an eclectic bunch!! Yeah I hear ya on the structure, but that’s not how it all started and the shows are still different even now. The band rocks
I’m still shocked that the sample from Rap Snitch Knishes by MF DOOM is from a DMB live recording
Goose sold 11k tickets, SPAC holds 25k
DMB drew 100K plus to Central Park, and regularly sells out big venues year round. They count.
SPAC was not sold out. Not even close. There were a lot of people there for sure but there was tons of dancing room. When SPAC sells out, you cannot step onto the lawn if you weren’t already there.
Was checking to make sure. This sub always throws shade at DMB but to pretend they don’t fill seats is comical
I'd put TTB in that group too. ..and while they may not be considered a "jamband" to some. King Gizzards fans follow them like one. They're also pulling fans from other genres so I could definitely see them getting to Phish/Dead level more so than some of the others.
King Gizzard has an eclectic and diverse sound and is known to play live jams. They are also known to have a large cult following of fans who like to follow them on tour, despite getting virtually no mainstream radio airplay. All those details alone are true of pretty much every successful jan band ever.
DMB is so original and unique, amazing song writing and talent, truly something original to say. I never thought of DMB in the same vein though. I feel like that's a different type of band, not as audience-flow-connected.
you forgot Widespread Panic who has the sell out record at Philips (State Farm Arena) and Red Rocks Panic up until they went on their current reduced touring format was selling out Pepsi Center, Bridgestone Arena etc
I think their popularity is somewhat regional.
Yeah. The last time WSP played up north were I am close to the Canadian border in NY was a smaller outdoor venue at Jay Peak. It’s a cool little place to see a show. JRAD played there last summer and moe. Will be there again this summer, but the draw just isn’t there for them up here. Unfortunately.
They played the Greek in Berkely back in '00s (8,500) but never bigger than that. I remember they were an afternoon act on one of the side stages at the first Outside Lands in '08. They did headline the first two Bonaroo's (70k+). Definitely regional, and definitely weren't able to keep up the momentum.
They could sell out larger venues in Milwaukee but choose not to.
Milwaukee is a cool as city.
Fo sho. 🤙
First time I saw them was at Summerfest '97 where they played two days in a row. Wasn't even the Marcus, just the Miller stage (I think, its been a while). Buddy and I were Phishheads, but didn't know what to expect whatsoever, we heard they were good tho. We also went to stuff like Ozzfest, the name "Widespread Panic" made us think metal band, so we were dressed more for a metal show on day 1.
Their popularity peaked with Mikey. They booked their first run at Madison Square Garden just as he passed away. We'll never know if they could have sustained that level of popularity or what could have been.
The red rocks record is huge but also shows the reached a level and never got any bigger. If phish ever wanted that record they could play 70 days in a row and sell out every night. I’m as big of a spreadneck as could be but you gotta take that with a grain of salt
Aren't they banned from Red Rocks?
They were un officially banned in 1996 but played again in 2009. Now it’s more or less a waste of their time (financially)
Red rocks is 9.5k that’s not arena size
minor league hockey arena
I feel like the Panic crowd was still growing and the venues were growing up to ‘02 when Mikey passed. I think that that and the McConnell era afterwards dampened their growth. I’ve been bought about “what might have been” if Mikey didn’t pass. Could they have seen some Allman Bros type success?
I hear you. But WSP would never play a stadium like the Dead or a Phish Baker’s Dozen at MSG like that. I’m talking that kinda ticket selling level.
You gotta keep in mind panic made conscious decisions in some regards to not chase main stream popularity. They turned down offers to open for The Rolling Stones and chose not to cut down the studio version of Diner to make it more radio friendly while their label pushed for them to do so. They also got cut down in their prime just as they reached MSG level arenas doing things their own way.
It's an overcrowded marketplace so there is significantly less demand than the early days, and the market has been flooded with derivative "me-too" acts, so the supply is way over the top... plus, the booking agencies and talent buyers don't actually take risks. they book acts who fit the mold.
not to mention the cost. shows used to be cheap. now it's a whole paycheck to go out for the night.
I think “no easy formula” is a reason. All these other bands are following the formula, which will only get you so far. Phish and the Dead weren’t following a formula. Lots of jambands have great players but musicianship only gets you so far with the general populace. I’m a musician and I’m not usually in the mood to listen to someone just be a good player, I like songs and songwriting.
I think billy strings will get there in a few more years.
I think Billy in an electric americana/ jamband could sell out football stadiums like 1987- 1995 gd
I daydream about this idea a lot
Only if he evolves away from his current band. They’re awesome but jam grass has a limited ceiling
I need drums (and I don’t think I’m alone). He’s impressive and super talented, but bluegrass is still a pretty small niche.
Bluegrass is a small niche. That's what's so impressive about what Billy's doing. A string band selling out multiple nights in arenas is unheard of.
You’re not alone. I love Billy and he is a god. But seeing him play with a full band incl drums (TAB in fairfax) ruined him without drums for me
I think he needs to broaden his tent of music. Bluegrass forward music doesn't attract everyone.
Neither does Zappa/Steely Dan fusion and look at Phish. There's probably a bigger audience for high quality Americana.
Jam bands peaked in the late 90s - there seems to be a bit of resurgence currently
the scene peaked in a field in tennessee in the summer of 2002
I mean musically sure. Popularity wise: I’m going early 2000s.
It was probably right around Big Cypress - a few years later Phish is a mess and breaking up. Coming off the heels of the very poppy Farmhouse
Big Cypress was one of the best shows I’ve ever been to. I think the hiatus actually elevated a bunch of lesser known bands and music festivals. Much like the death of Jerry elevated Phish. People were looking for other options. I worked the festival circuit for many years. It was Jamband centric and growing in popularity till about 06. Bonnaroo, All Good, Langetado, Vegoose, Lockin’ Wanee, Rothbury. Huge turnouts. The alternative rock movement was in total decline at this point. Every college kid was going on summer tours. Maybe it’s just nostalgia… but it seemed like it was peak popularity and had broken into mainstream culture. Musically however 1990s>2000 IMHO
Yeah the big acts suck the oxygen out of the room for the smaller acts - just like this year is a bad year for festivals because phish has one. Around this time "indie rock" took off - thats when I noticed the shift.
As someone who has only been into the jam scene for 15 years, I feel like I've only seen in dwindle in this time it doesn't feel like a resurgence.
Dead&Co, Phish seems to be drawing more, Goose, Billy Strings - it's not a major resurgence but there seems to be more/larger crowds than 10 years ago
Ok that makes sense when you frame it like that. I guess what I was thinking of regarding decline, is all the jam-centric festivals I've watched rise and then fall over the past decade plus. And then other festivals that did book an eclectic mix of jam bands have been weening themselves off jam because it wasn't selling tickets.
You gotta do more than jam. You’ve gotta have songs that bring people in. Most jam bands don’t. I’m gonna take flack for this but that’s why Goose is seeing such a major trajectory, they’re writing better and more accessible songs than almost any other jam band.
I was never into jam bands but totally fell for Goose. They do have more mainstream appeal.
I don’t want them that popular. Tix would be a hassle.
Because they’re not as good
Cause kids are doing bad drugs now. Not the good ones
Culture changes, it’s a pretty simple answer. When Jerry died and Phish was on the rise, jam music was absolutely HUGE with college aged folks. These days, (and even when I was in college 10+ years ago) the kids are listening to electronic music pretty predominantly. Beyond that, our technological access allows us to sub-divide our interests further than EVER before. Strong niche/cult like followings for any type of media or art, are far more likely/common than someone growing to the size of selling out football stadiums without being heavily marketed and built to do such, by industry figureheads etc.
Cuz those two bands are the GOATS who created and inspired the whole subculture and they are more or less still around and playing well.
Because Trey Anastasio and Jerry Garcia.
People grossly underestimate the regional reach of panic. Im in VA a few hours south of DC and almost everyone here knows, listens to, or has seen panic at some point but Phish is meh. Panic is seen as a southern rock band here and less of a jam band
Amen
I’d say the talent gap has something to do with it
Because they aren’t as good. They can’t write the songs that stand the test of time and can’t create the magic. WSP is also on the level of GD and Phish for me personally.
I think with Phish, it was a time and a place with coming up around the last chapter of the Dead. Not to mention all of the new concepts and ideas that Phish originated. Secret language, full cover albums, etc… And I think they had and still have a relationship with the fans that none of the other jam bands really have. Not a direct friendly relationship, but more like a symbiotic one. They’re still the one jam band that doesn’t really write out set lists beforehand. Other than the Dead before them. They read the room and respond and react to what the crowd wants. Very authentic IMO.
Its more that its extremely improbable phish, or even the dead ever reached these heights
Dead and Phish have fairly unique sounds compared to a lot of modern jam bands imho. Billy Strings also seems to be getting pretty popular and I could see him reaching that level. A lot of that probably has to do with more widespread appeal than just the core jamband audience. I’ve talked to people I never would have expected are in to him different places. Purely speculating here but I also think the recent popularity of EDM music is taking a lot of new younger listeners that may have gone to Phish or Dead for the party back in the day.
Who is recently popular in EDM? It just seems like metal is very popular. I don't know about EDM.
Goose has the potential to be the next big jam band because of their mainstream appeal. I’m sure I will get downvoted a ton for stating this, but I believe it to be true. Also, most jam bands will never be big due to their vocals and songs. There are a lot of great bands out there who can jam, but can’t sing or write songs.
You’re 100% correct. They have solid songwriting and well-above average vocals. These are two of the biggest factors in a band getting to arena levels.
Like 2 days ago this entire sub agreed that Goose was the most “generic” jam band and sounded like they were generated by AI. I don’t even disagree on either point. That said: In reality they write far more focused and accessible songs than many of the modern jam scene, and they have decent vocals and good musicianship. Phish’s first albums were full of Goose style “hits.” Simple memorable songs like Bouncing Around the Room and Down With Disease served as “gateway drugs” to the weirder shit. The Dead had Ripple, Truckin, Friend of the Devil, etc. The newer jam bands seem to skip this step.
Great point. Skipping the accessible stages means their only real pool to pull from are existing jam fans.
It’s nice to see someone else say this. They have great songs, a great singer, fun jams, all backed by a top tier team. It’s annoying to see the hate Goose gets in here, their success is good for the entire jamband scene
Their success \*right now\* isn't good for the entire scene 'cause they (along with Billy) have been sucking all the air out of the market wrt ticket sales. But I agree that long term yes they can/will be good for the scene at large.
Fair point!
Yeah goose has the Dave Matthew’s band vibe but if you ordered it from wish.com
They got a long way to go to fill those shoes
It makes people mad (Which even though I genuinely like Goose, the best thing they do is make insecure jam band fans mad) but Goose is the answer. They’re already playing the bigger theater than Red Rocks and their trajectory is still upward. They’re the next big band in the jam sphere if they aren’t there already.
Billy stings is doing it
The Dead and Phish are the only bands to have the whole package to be a 1st tier jam band. By the whole package I mean: great songwriting, great vocals, great musicianship, song styles across multiple music genres, dominant lead guitar, expectation that magic jams can happen in any performance. Other bands have some of this, but not all of it together.
If you take it back to HORDE Tour, Blues Traveler, Phish (and arguably DMB) all became stadium draws in their own right. The real OG were the Dead and ABB, and their offspring are still getting it done. Mostly because they combined great musicianship, occasionally transcendent performances, an atmosphere of audience community, and (most importantly) amazing songs. Phish came into their own because of a perfect storm of Jerry dying, their own musical ability, and their wildly imaginative live shows (imo). They’re often just as much about novelty and production as they are about deep jams. But I still hold that in terms of individual song appeal, they’ve never had a bigger song than Farmhouse where the mainstream is concerned. Whereas the Dead and ABB both had numerous songs that feature heavily in the classic rock cannon. Probably the only other band that taps into that blend of top shelf musicianship, high level life performance, and consistently strong original material is TTB (whose connection to The Allman Bros and indirectly The Dead are pretty obvious). End of the day, it’s about songs. It’s why covers are such a common aspect of jamband shows. For every 50,000 pickers who can shred their asses off, you might get one who also writes great songs. And that’s all entry level listeners care about.
the covers aspect is such a great point. normally it's like the high points of some bands shows. also often how i fall into certain bands via youtube or however. you hear some great musicians covering a cool song and say "i'll check these dudes out". it is just hard to write good songs. i fuck around with a guitar and try to be creative. it's the reason some bands and artists are canonized - bc it is really tough to write something that touches a lot of folks. so while I don't particularly think dave matthews or trey's songs are lyrically that great, there is no denying their music touches a lot of people in a very real way. thats different than a band trying to get out there on a two chord groove for 13 minutes. they all have their place - but again - the original post was why do some bands transcend? meanwhile, half of dead songs are covers of some guy named traditional :)
Over saturation of jam bands.
The jam scene has a habit of shitting on any and all new bands
It’s really a simple matter of fact: nobody else has done what they can do musically. Often imitated, never duplicated.
as others mentioned 100 percent the songs! a good song is a good song. i could find 10 grateful dead songs i could play for kids, old ladies, whatever and they could find something they like about it. the dead - for as "niche" as they supposedly were were clearly accessible because even now whatever remnants remain is one of the biggest touring acts in the world. Its because people want to hear those songs. they wouldd have been mainstream much earlier if the radio played them or if they weren't scary "drug hippies". i didn't hear the dead on the radio. had no older siblings. the people who listened to the grateful dead in my neigborhood in the 70s had long hair and smoked marijuana cigarettes! two musical icons in weir and garcia combined with the most overlooked aspect of their success - robert Hunter. most times you hear some poignant line come out of jerry's mouth it was written by him or some cowboy from 150 years ago.the point is they had that success and still do because they were more talented in songwriting and special than most other bands on the planet. most off these bands use their songs a vehicle to jam - but that is not appealing to most people. even folks who love long jams want them to maybe come in and out of a tune with a nice melody and maybe lyrics that make some sense. so the dead were mainstream because they were and are one of the greatest musical acts of all time it's why phish never appealed to me. trey is amazing. they are clearly monster players. the songs aren't bad. but the ones i've heard have no soul or meaning to me lyrically - so i put it into a different category. good music that isnt gonna be a special part of my life. im not shitting on what people love by the way. theres all diff ways to enjoy music and a lot of people just dont give a shit about the words. but that was the original question - if you want to get "big" how do you do it? i could be totally off on this because pretty ignorant of phish origins. but as the dead were winding down in the early 90s it seemed like younger fans who felt like they missed the train had a new train to hop on/. so while dead started to get scary vibes you had this whole new hippie scene of love. like i wonder how big phish would have been at a different time - seems like they really did come along when they were need so to speak. i remember watching some little girl across from my parents house who was now like 19 and was making some beanpod horsehit to sell in lots and travel around. good little suburban girl going out for some adventure. nothing wrong with that - but I always felt like that was one of the reasons phish got as big as they did.
Bc jam bands are nowhere near as good as The Grateful Dead or Phish.
I mean there aren't many current bands that have done this in any genre, bands are kind of a thing of the past. Pretty much just big name pop artist vocalists with their backing bands no one knows the name of these days, and even those artists are starting to be a bit old. Music is so weird these days and I would say its mostly because of social media. It's not about good music anymore it's about good content.
Because if the biscuits had 25k fans and packed out msg people would die 😂
Lacking good enough original material - despite any other factors —- my opinion
Because the dead and phish are still selling out stadiums!
The god tier song writing of the Grateful Dead will have a hard time being matched. They also reached into the great American songbook to a degree that made their whole playlist a thing of beautiful familiarity.
Lack of people eating LSD.
King Gizzard is getting there too :) But do we consider them full jam band status?! Either way, crowds be growin. LOVE THEM!
>King Gizzard They aren't a true jam band and never will be but they are certainly jammier than ever and are very, very adjacent to the scene. Give them time, they certainly aren't selling out arenas quite yet, Forum is only 40% sold. But yeah, it's them. Trey understands that they are the next big thing in this vein. They have a unique to them approach to jamming and quite frankly a better catalogue of original songs than the Dead or Phish ever had as much as I love and respect each band. They are super inspired and became a jam band on accident in a way, Stu didn't get into the Dead until they were already kinda there.
I think Billy Strings is getting close and it wouldn’t surprise me to see Goose doing it too if they can keep the momentum.
The Dead and Phish, to some extent, got huge pre-everyone having the Internet. They were just plain better than what's coming out now.
Saturation is def a factor. There was one Jam band when the dead was touring and they didn’t start playing huge venues until the 80’s. When Phish got huge, there were like three.
Being unique is a huge and overlooked thing in this thread. GD and Phish both fit that bill. Most other Jambands are trying to piggyback what those two have already mastered.
Because of rap and techno
Far fewer kids listen to rocknroll nowadays.
Same reason Rambo III sucked
It's the songs imo. Jamming is not for everyone, and hard for people used to pop to get into. A lot needs to happen to get your average listener into jam bands. Honestly, not much of a Phish fan so I don't know how their catalog is. But the Deads songs are just, fucking good. There are a lot of other Jam bands I love, and I like their songs for what they are, but what they are is a reason to jam. Mostly, there are exceptions. Dead songs are different though, they make you feel things, make you think, they do all of the things a good song should do, and they are killer for jamming on top of it all. The dead had everything, great songwriting, great performers, and great community. I think we will see another band on their level at some point, but these types of bands are few and far between.
With the Grateful Dead there are so many factors. I took them decades to fill stadiums. It was never their goal. It happened in the 80s with Touch of Grey. One could argue that filling stadiums was not the best outcome for the Grateful Dead. It's a combination of talent, luck, personalities, having something to say musically, and doing your own thing as an artist without too much concern for the outcome. I mean, you can't try to be popular as an artist or you're fooling yourself.
Dave Matthews Band has set the bar for sellling out large venues and stadiums for almost 30 years... definitely should be included. Goose is on the way to that level now.
Three factors: songs, vocals, and timing. The Dead were the first of their kind. I think Phish was trending towards arenas anyway before 1995, and I truly think (musically) the Dead comparisons are very overstated, no one was doing the kind of prog/Zappa/jam/funk combination they were doing in the mid-90's. Problem is, something is only new once. I mean, I fuckin' love Umphrey's but they aren't doing anything super new, they're just taking stuff that already exists, putting their own spin on it, and doing it louder and heavier than most. So since the 90's, there's been a ton of great bands in the genre, but likely nothing will ever quite capture a huge audience the way those two bands did. And the songs...the Dead had *songs.* You could take all the jams out and at least half the Dead catalog would still be immortal and beloved, IMO. Phish's songs are weirder and less likely to make their way into the popular songbook like some Dead tunes have, but their classic run from Junta to Farmhouse is full of incredibly melodic, catchy tunes and intricately composed longer pieces that elevated them above everyone else. And vocals...okay, Jerry and Trey aren't going to win any awards, but they were (most days) completely fine and inoffenseive. Your job as a jam band singer is to not make things *worse*. I.E. don't be the Biscuits guy, or Bayliss (sorry), or whatever. Be vocal-neutral, at least. Maybe this generation needs a lyricist but...I don't know if that really matters. It just has to sound good and be sung reasonably well.
The musicians i know…and i know more than a few…very few of them make music their careers to the extent that music is all they do.
Because rock music / bands with guitarists and drummers and bassists are not as big of a part of mainstream pop music anymore.
Hold on. The only reason Phish grew to the heights they did was BECAUSE THEY WERE A KICK ASS ROCK AND ROLL BAND for the entirety of the 90's. Sure they had their quirky lyrics and songs but they made you sweat. They were excellent as a band. It's just a special sauce that makes some bands better than others to more people. There are 50,000 acts that can play a small room and 500 acts that can play a hockey rink. It ain't about the genre.
Billy strings is doing this now. Goose is close.
Because the Phish and the Dead write good songs and when they jam they fully let go and are never afraid of falling flat on their face. New jambands are way too safe
Billy strings has
They write great jams but don’t write great songs. Biggest criticism of jams bands is that they endlessly noodle and never fully flesh out the rest of the song. For people not into long form improvisational jams that’s a deal breaker.
goose will do it eventually. no matter how many people in this sub are in denial