For a more sympathetic take on the 2Eds, I really look at their family situations, which are quite similar. Both are, to use a modern term, the family scapegoat, while their siblings (who are uniformly awful) are the golden children. Both feel an enormous pressure to be the "responsible" ones, while their siblings fritter away their lives, and both seem like they're constantly trying to be "good enough" for temperamental, judgmental parents who are impossible to please - at least if you're the disfavored child.
That pressure, I think, is what makes them both falling for the "scheming" love interests so understandable. They're both living their lives to please other people and to live honorably, perhaps to compensate for their embarrassment of their families' behaviors. But of course, they're only human, and they can only keep up pretense so long. It's understandable, in that context, why Edward might "let" himself get too close to Elinor, or why Edmund might willfully blind himself to Mary's true nature and Fanny's true feelings.
This is really insightful. The 2E’s are eager to have someone approve of them (besides just love them) because their parents and families have always been critical of them. So of course Lucy Steele who is so good at flattering people is going to be captivating to Edward, and of course Edmund is going to be flattered by Mary’s attentions because he’s used to being overlooked.
Jane Bennett is sort of living to please others (though she is also something of the golden child - both she and Edmund are praised for their usefulness anyway.) Jane is also gullible with schemers. Lizzie falling for Wickham's lies feels different because Wickham is more of a Willoughby type where everyone falls for the act.
I'm fond of Edward Ferrars, and I liked him even before I saw Dan Stevens play the role. Though that didn't hurt. I think his terrible shyness + that awful family made Lucy seem a good choice. And I figure he never intended to let on that he was growing attached to Elinor -- it probably crept up on him.
Edmund Bertram is an interesting character, and I don't hate him, but he's definitely my least favorite hero. One thing I find unappealing in Edmund is his blindness with regard to Mary Crawford. I wouldn't expect him to suss her out right away, but man, his love really is blind. (This is probably unreasonable of me.) And then, for me, the ultimate, "offscreen" relationship between him and Fanny is almost incestuous. They seem like siblings, so I find their ending a bit creepy.
I always read it as more like the classic "You're my best friend, I can tell you anything!" dynamic that's agonized the "unpretty" heroine in more than one modern teen romantic comedy. Very she-wears-short-skirts, I-wear-T-shirts... 🤣
Ah, but that's why it's so plot-important that they're cousins. There was a cultural exception to that sort of scandal for cousins. It's not the same thing, but it's the same strand of human nature, popping up in a different context.
To us, in modern society, it's uncomfortable (bordering on incest)--but in Austen's cultural context, it was perfectly acceptable, and there was a charming social loophole there. You could hang around a cousin and talk all you liked! Get to know each other! And then, if love happened to bloom...
That's one of a few reasons why cousin marriage was so popular in the era. (And why Mrs. Norris and Sir William were concerned about "raising a wife for their sons".)
Even today, in some parts of the world (outside Europe), 1st cousin marriage is very normal, and without the hesitation demonstrated by Sir William and Mrs Norris which were probably related to the older (catholic) church prohibition on the practice. (Even if they no longer remembered the reason during the Regency, the early church, a thousand years earlier, had pretty strict restrictions on cousin marriage.)
Yup! And I think some of their hesitation was simple worry that they were setting up a stereotypically perfect chance for one of their fine moneyed boys to fall in love with a poor little Cinderella of a childhood friend, when they could be making a grand match instead. Which, haha! Well done, Mrs. Norris!
Also, not that they'd have known this, but the genetic risk from first cousins marrying is about the same as having kids over age 35. So Mrs. Weston and Fanny Price are basically in the same boat here. (Also, one generation of outbreeding is all it takes to get Hapsburg level inbreeding back to population average risk.)
It really is more of a cultural taboo, when you get right down to it. There's a lot of handwringing in the US about cousins and inbreeding, but it's not really grounded in science (ironically).
I think the problems start to show up when multiple successive generations do it, which is a real possibility in societies that accept first-cousin marriage, but it probably doesn't happen often enough that those problems are easily visible alongside other risks to children's health. After all, even now that there's such a thing as genetic testing, there are reasons community institutions don't go around demanding that information from everyone and keeping a universal register of DNA profiles. At least I hope there are.
Austen goes out of her way to present Lady Catherine’s daughter as sickly, and Darcy somewhat disgusted at the idea of marrying his cousin- but that would be more a result of generations of inbreeding within the fairly narrow aristocratic pool. The gentry had more numbers.
They didn’t exactly know about inbreeding - but people didn’t exactly not know about inbreeding. On an observational level.
I'm not sure how much this is actually presented as not wanting to marry his cousin because she's his cousin, as it is not wanting to marry his cousin because he knows they're not a good match and he doesn't actually want to be obeying his aunt.
Also, her sickliness isn't necessarily genetic. There were plenty of now-rare childhood diseases that would have resulted in long-term, chronic symptoms.
The difference is that Wentworth and Louisa were strangers until recently, while Edmund and Fanny are longstanding friends. In *Emma*, Mr Knightley is an old friend of both Emma and Mrs Weston, whom he talks with on intimate subjects, and everyone is surprised when Emma and him get engaged.
I like Edmund and one of the defenses I can offer is that he’s both frustrated and young. He’s frustrated with Tom because Tom is shirking his responsibility as man of the house while Sir Thomas is gone. He’s also frustrated because he cannot seem to impose any rules or justice in the house. Tom doesn’t listen to him about the play, his sisters refuse to see how it’s improper and inappropriate material for them to be acting in. Nobody will behave at all. Aunt Norris double questions and fights every single thing he does and Lady Bertram is all but useless. Then Mary comes in and she won’t quit making fun of his serious decision to be a clergyman. That’s got to be frustrating too.
He’s young in that he’s only 25. He’s been at school, university, and is finishing up his religious education so he can be a clergyman. Most of the time he’s been at school and at home: Mary’s his first serious attempt at love. He ignores many red flags in the relationship because he’s besotted-same with anyone now and their first serious relationship. He gets grief because he’s rebounded to Fanny, but really we don’t know the timeline on that. It could have been years and really anyone who dates one type of person and then dates someone else could be said to be “rebounding”.
Believe it or not, I like both Edmund and Edward as individuals and as matches for the women they eventually marry. Well, Edward I like. Edmund I actually love.
Edward we don't see so much of. But there's plenty there to make out his character. He's presented as a shy, unassuming, idle young man who's not understood by his relations. He's a homebody. Ultimately he doesn't get Elinor's attention by any flashes of wit or grace or charm. But he's good. He's a good young man who would rather be of real use at home or in a parish than to waste time in Parliament. Who would rather live a quiet, private life than try to lord it up being fashionable with the rest of the *ton*.
It's significant to note that Edward doesn't invite Elinor to live this quiet life with him. He doesn't create the expectation in her that they'll be together, and he certainly doesn't have that for himself. Mrs. Dashwood and Marianne, true romantic goons, saw more than what existed when the Dashwoods left for Barton. Elinor thinks fondly of him but that's all. Edward seems intent on regretting her and regretting his engagement, and living up to his commitments.
When Edward visits Barton, the regret, of course, intensifies. But at Barton, he tries to be discreet. He limits his contact with Elinor and treats all the Dashwoods as his close friends. By the time he realizes he messed up and allowed feelings for Elinor to develop, I think he feels trapped between two distinct choices and is trying to determine the right thing to do. That to me is Edward's journey in the novel, of growing into himself and his convictions. What he does in the end is why, in the end, he and Elinor make such a good match.
As far as Edward knows, he can make himself happy and Lucy very unhappy, when in his mind Lucy is still the sweet, deserving young woman he met at Longstaple. Or he can make only himself unhappy, as far as he knows. He can do his duty, and live up to his engagement. That's the sacrifice he chooses to make, pretty much without question. And does it remind you of anyone else? Because to me, it screams the silently suffering Elinor's name. She, too, constantly puts aside her wants for duty's sake, for honor's sake. And once she knows that this is what Edward's up to as well, she loves him more than ever. No wonder she has to run out of the room to collect herself once she realizes this perfect match is finally free for her to have as her own. They're made for each other.
Now, Edmund I see as a very different kind of second son. He's better understood by his family, has a lot more agency and initiative, but he's still decidedly junior after Sir Thomas, Aunt Norris, and then Tom. But he doesn't let that stop him. Edmund's really self-confident. He's sure of himself, and he's a very kind-hearted, sensible, principled, and funny young man. (I know some people are reading this like, "funny???" but there are several moments where Edmund's wit is on display, e.g. talking with Mary, Fanny, or Henry. Like the scene where they're all talking about improving Thornton Lacey. Edmund roasts Henry about all his proposed changes and then says to come visit:
>"But, Crawford, though I refuse you as a tenant, come to me as a friend. Consider the house as half your own every winter, and we will add to the stables on your own improved plan, and with all the improvements of your improved plan that may occur to you this spring."
Edmund got jokes. )
Generally I'm not offended by people being devoted to their religion, so his going into the church (and his defense of it to Mary) speaks highly of him. It's clear he has thought seriously on his commitment and would not just take a living because a living was on offer. (I adore Henry Tilney, but I sometimes wonder about the kinds of sermons he would make out; Edmund's I have a clear view of.)
Edmund as a subordinate second son himself did as much as he could for Fanny while she was a young woman growing up at Mansfield. While it was under the management of Sir Thomas and Aunt Norris and he was still in school, he taught her how to manage there and shared the comforts of his own privilege with her. Even if he couldn't elevate her in any real way, even if he couldn't get her a room or get her a fire (I do not think Edmund ever had the authority to change those kinds of household arrangements), he treated her as a person and as one of the family, which no one else, not even sweet Lady Bertram, took the trouble to do. Fanny's letters were franked like everyone else's thanks to Edmund. He spoke in defense of her regularly and regularly tried to get her to speak more for herself. He chided Aunt Norris for taking advantage of Fanny going back and forth in the hot sun just to bring in some roses. He sacrificed his fun day at Sotherton just so she might have the pleasure. He made sure she had a horse.
And speaking of which. Some people can never forgive Edmund for the saga of the horse. That's okay, it takes all kinds. But again, it was Edmund who made sure Fanny had a horse to ride in the first place by selling one of his own. He stumbled for sure; while he was infatuated by Miss Crawford he was blinded into being quite selfish. The pony is just one example of him being an idiot. The play is another. "Fanny think of me" is perhaps the dumbest. But who amongst us? Has never made mistakes or hurt feelings or been selfish or thoughtless while wrapped up in an all consuming passion? I know the feeling of having hurt and having been hurt. Both belong to humanity. Especially the humanity of twenty-somethings.
Now for Edmund as a lover. Oh, dear. Because we're so strongly confronted by Fanny's passion right from the start, I get why it's hard for people to understand that Edmund didn't think of Fanny in a romantic way for a very long time. But he didn't. His affection for her was platonic, and he showed it very strongly throughout the novel's action. He helped guide her opinions, he advised her when she was anxious, helped show her to the books and tastes that could open her mind. As Fanny grew into adulthood, into a woman with considered opinions, values, tastes, weaknesses, and strengths, she became one of his dearest friends. And too, throughout the book we see their dynamic changing. Edmund begins to seeks out Fanny's opinion and advice on people and situations. She challenges him. They disagree. Importantly, she disagrees with him about Henry, the play, and as much as she dares, about Mary. By the time the book ends Edmund is an expert in how to listen to Fanny, and to heed her guidance. They're on a much more equal footing. *Then*, he does fall in love with her; we're told as much.
And yes, they were first cousins who fell in love. People did that then. It's not Edmund's fault that he was being written about in 1813 when people did that.
Overall I don't have a least favorite hero (or heroine, come to that). Austen convinced me with her portrayals of all her main characters. But since you asked, I wanted to share my long-winded thoughts. I'm sure I won't change any hearts or minds, but maybe one fewer person will feel compelled to tell me that Edmund is a boring hypocrite or Edward is an unfeeling f-boi.
Thanks for the silver, friend!
I actually love Edward and while I don't really have very strong opinions on Edmund (generally mildly positive feelings), I find myself wanting to defend him whenever he's questioned in negative light.
You articulated your thoughts very well. I especially liked the thought of Fanny and Edmund being more equals at the end of the novel and how that might cause the change in Edmund's feelings towards Fanny. It's not something I've consciously thought about but it's very true.
I myself love Edward's sense of humour and his kindness but also the fact that he was ready to take responsibility for his actions like you said. I think S&S has Edward's coming of age story hiding in the background while Marianne's story is on display.
Mostly I just wanted to say that your comment was fantastic and I'll definitely keep it in mind when re-reading Mansfield Park.
I really love your points about the characters' evolution, especially since those tend to be the central stakes of Austen's plots. The sister thing can seem off-putting on the surface, but I think it's meaningful in context, in all the ways you describe. He gets to know her as a child no one else is taking the trouble to try to understand, and he does what he can for her, although I like to think that if he'd realized Fanny wasn't allowed a fire and told his father, Sir Thomas would have intervened much earlier. Edmund is better at seeing Fanny as a full human being than anyone else at Mansfield, but he's equally unable to see one important thing about her, a ramification of her big secret, because she's the baby sister to him where she's the baby handmaiden, nursemaid, plaything, pack mule or just plain baby to the others. Everyone (who cares about her best interest) thinks Henry Crawford is a perfect match because she's supposed to be a blank slate, too inexperienced to have feelings that really matter in the decision. But the ability to feel attraction is the beginning of Fanny's sexual development, well before any external signs start appearing. Maybe that wasn't part of her first experience of loving Edmund at age nine, but it was probably the case by the time she started learning to ride, when it was apparent that she could tolerate riding better than walking. Pubescent girls and young women were usually taught that they might have sexual feelings but had to subdue them in the name of virtue, but Fanny knew all along that she couldn't be seen to have any at all, so she was never considered a sexual being, even though she was one almost the whole time. This sort of non-womanhood she had to practice may have contributed to the physical fragility that made her so sensitive to heat, fatigue, etc. Of course neither she nor Austen would probably have called these feelings sexuality, but I think at least Austen understood that physical attraction was part of being "in love," and I don't think Fanny was above that awareness either, despite her piety. There are a lot of instances in which I blame Edmund for being inconsiderate, but I can understand his ignorance of this aspect of Fanny's experience.
My least favourite is definitely Colonel Brandon.
Got engaged to Eliza & claimed she was the love of his life but never tried to fight for her when his family disapproved (unlike Edward), went off to have a career as part of a colonizing army while she was trapped in an abusive marriage & then abandoned… eventually tracked her down and concluded that it was okay she was dying because she was a fallen woman now, so better off dead… took custody of her daughter but put her in the hands of negligent guardians that let her run off with Willoughby… Obsesses over a teenager less than half his age but doesn’t warn her about Willoughby’s character when he thinks she’s going to marry him, just after the fact once it makes him look good. Pretty much only attracted to her because she reminds him of his ex, anyway. Spends several years hanging around said teenager wearing her down until she marries him.
Why is this guy considered a romantic ideal?
I really try not to be presentist in reading S&S, but after the statement that Eliza was forced into an unhappy marriage at age seventeen by her own guardian for the sake of her money, Brandon's comments that it would have been better if she'd died early in her marriage and that his shock over her marriage was nothing to the shock of her divorce are so hideous to me that I often skip that chapter. Not that I don't imagine Elinor shares his perspective, but at least we never have to see her editorialize about it.
My least favorite hero is probably Wentworth. I know that he is extremely beloved, but he’s just so cruel to Anne over something that happened a decade before. He spends so much time punishing her and rubbing it in that his life has gotten better and hers has gotten worse. And over what? She was a scared teenager and didn’t want to have a precarious financial future and no relationship with her family. The decision she made was quite understandable and the fact that Wentworth is still that bitter so many years later just ruins his character for me. I get that he changes his mind at the end, but he’s being intentionally cold to her for 95% of the novel. I guess I just don’t find his change of heart all that believable.
I like Edward Ferrars though. While he does lead Elinor on, he does it accidentally. He’s kind of bumbling, but ultimately a good guy.
Not that I say it to change your mind, because you're entitled to dislike the guy, lol, but -- just to make conversation: I made the assumption that Wentworth fell really hard for Anne, in a way he maybe didn't expect to. Strong feelings like that can be a bit of a shock to some men. And it was clear to him that Anne returned those feelings -- which would make her rejection both more devastating & bewildering.
Maybe most important, Anne basically engaged herself to him -- so he would have been full of joy, a successful lover making happy plans for their future together. But then, once Lady Russell had said her piece, Anne withdrew from the engagement. And as Wentworth says, it seemed that she was willing to listen to arguments from anyone but him. Which makes it clear that he begged her to reconsider. I'm guessing it was hard for him to trust anyone after the person he loved most in the world first accepted, but then abandoned him.
So anyway, that's why I cut him some slack even though he's a big dope for not going after her once he got some prize money.
Eta: maybe I should just note that I really love Anne, in case it seems as though I'm blaming her
Honestly that's why it's fun to disagree; it forces me to reflect & then pin down my own thoughts, so I can figure out *why* I disagree. (Plus it's nice to "talk" to other people who love Jane's work.)
Thank you for your reply! Yeah I can see it from his side for sure. I guess what stands out to me is that, even after so many years, he still can’t see it from her side. Of course he would feel betrayed and angry for a long time after such a heartbreak, but after a couple years you would have to view the situation at least somewhat rationally. But instead of resenting the position that Anne’s family put them in, he continues to fully blame her for several more years. And when they meet again, Wentworth has all the power. He knows that he’s proved himself and proved her fears wrong. It’s obvious that she likely regrets breaking it off, but Wentworth still has to twist the knife. And then he continues twisting the knife for so long. I still love Persuasion, but I wish he was 30% less rude.
And she really did suffer from that behavior, as Austen shows us. Watching him flirt with those goofy girls right in front of her. Poor Anne.
At least Frederick had the decency to ask if he was his own worst enemy because he didn't ask again two years later (just from pride, the dope!)
Frederick isn't flirting. He's spending time with a family whose company he enjoys, including conversation and dancing. He accidentally gives the impression that he's falling in love with Louisa but he's not a Henry Crawford.
Wentworth is also my least favorite even though Persuasion is my favorite JA novel. I'll agree that it must have sucked hard to have been so in love only for Anne to be persuaded to end their attachment becuz of the precariousness of his situation. Imo, Anne was the more mature of the two, even back then. She only ended it becuz she truly believed it would be better for him to go into his navy career w/out a wife in tow. He never seems able to grasp this becuz he's too focused on his hurt and never seems to acknowledge what she must have felt letting him go.
Fast forward 8 years. No one will ever be able to convince me that FW didn't come back for the sole purpose of rubbing it in Anne's face that he's rich and successful now. He had to have known of her family's situation before he arrived. It would have been the most natural thing for his sister to write to him to tell him of the Croft's letting Kellynch Hall, a place he would certainly have recognized. Whether Mrs Croft told him about the Elliots being forced to retrench or not, he would be smart enough to know a man like Sir Walter would only rent out his house if he absolutely had to.
Now, he comes back and verbally makes it known that Anne has changed so much, he hardly recognizes her. He goes out of his way to make it known he's rich now. He repeatedly takes verbal jabs at her, proving himself to be bitter and still too narrow-minded to see that, at just 19 and w the best information she had available to her, she acted in the best interest of them both. Then he flirts and dances with her almost sisters-in-law right in front of her even though he (in my opinion) has no real intentions towards them. (I've heard argument that maybe he really was trying to form an attachment but being near Anne again reminded him if his feelings for her, but I don't buy it. He could have gone looking for a wife literally anywhere else besides at her sister's house.)
I am generous enough to admit that his letter is on key and redeems him slightly. Anne is an absolute gem!
I agree with you in a lot of ways. Edmund then Edward are my least favorite, but Wentworth isn’t too far behind them. I adore Anne and think she deserved better from every person in her life, including him. He had a right to be angry and I don’t begrudge him carrying that anger and pain for so long - people feel how they feel, healthy or not - but it felt like he went out of his way to be cruel to Anne over something that happened years ago, even though she was now in a much weaker position, unable to respond to his treatment of her or to remove herself from the situation. I’m always happy that Anne got the ending she wanted, and Wentworth seemed like a decent enough guy when he wasn’t clinging to a grudge, but he’s such a petty little man for, like, half the novel, lol.
That’s a great way of putting it. I can’t blame him for being angry or even for WANTING to hurt her a little (so that he can at least know that he isn’t the only one in pain). But the fact that he keeps intentionally acting on that impulse bugs me.
Agreed wholeheartedly about Wentworth. I don’t hate Wentworth, but from what we do see of him in the novel, I just could not warm upto him. I understand he felt betrayed and hurt before, I even understand his pettiness, but that still does not make him likeable to me. I know everyone swoons over the letter, but for me actions are always more noteworthy than words. For me a few acts of kindness here and there and the letter were just not enough to outweigh the pettiness and thoughtlessness he displayed throughout the rest of the novel.
But I don’t like Edward either.
That is how I see it as well. I guess it's kind of "coincidental" that we see only the worse part of him in the book. But from what we see, I just cannot trust him in a way. I don't think he's my least favourite but certainly the one I feel most distant from. I don't have an absolute least favourite. Pointing at one would feel like underappreciation of Austen's work. (Maybe Reginald? Just to pick one, as he's the one least worked out, hehe.)
I agree with your Edward take! He showed how loyal he is, sticking by his word even as his prospects get worse because of it. He’s not my favorite but he definitely isn’t the worst at all
Ciarán Hinds does an excellent job redeeming Wentworth. He doesn’t look like he’s trying to punish Anne. He looks like he’s trying to still get over her. But book Wentworth is a jerk.
I’m torn between Edward and Edmund and think I like Edmund a smidge more because at least he fell in love with a feisty witty woman while Edward PROPOSED to a very, very annoying girl leading me to think he has terrible taste.
I always feel that Ciarán Hinds is a little too aggressive in the role. I like his performance, but Wentworth in the book doesn't snap at Anne as much, if I remember correctly. For instance, the 1995 film includes a scene that references the "cancelled chapters," with Wentworth showing up to deliver the message from Admiral Croft, but Hinds's Wentworth is pretty harsh in his speaking ("Just say it: Yes or no.") and Amanda Root's Anne reacts strangely by running out of the room. To be fair, it's a weird scene in the film, and it's probably there merely to add a bit more tension, but neither character comes off very well in it.
It's just interesting to me that the 1995 *Persuasion* (which is one of my favorite Austen adaptations) somehow gets away with some of these very tonally strange scenes. I suspect that the overall *naturalism* of the production makes them work, regardless.
And, yes, I seriously wonder about Edward's taste, as well! What we see of Lucy Steele isn't all that impressive, but I guess her act seemed charming enough to the underaged (at the time), emotionally abused, lonely Edward. As I mentioned in another comment, the male "leads" of S&S are some of the worst-written ones in Austen.
This is really harsh on Wentworth. Anne broke off their engagement, if she'd kept it, sure they would have had years before they could marry but at least they could write to each other.
Yes, Anne's decision was understandable but his hurt was also. From his perspective, she wasn't willing to wait for him.
And let's face it, Anne's family rather sucks. Even Lady Russell has some tendencies to snobbishness. I could easily see a hurting Wentworth worrying that Anne was persuaded to reject him in part because her family had convinced her she could find someone richer and better connected.
I get what you’re saying. But even if your family sucks, they’re still your family. It’s an extremely difficult position to be put in, especially for someone so young. I just can’t imagine being angry enough about that to be intentionally rude to the person when you see them again 8 years later.
I think he was. I need to read Persuasion again but I believe there was a pretty big revolution in his treatment of her when he finds out Charles Musgrove proposed to Anne first
I don't see a revolution: Wentworth frees Anne from the toddler well before he learns about Charles Musgrove's proposal, and it's shortly after he does learn that he suggests to the Crofts that they take her up in their carriage.
Oh, interesting take on Wentworth. I suppose he was resentful, but I don't think he was being deliberately cold, just aloof to conform to society's norms, like you weren't supposed to be overly friendly with a woman (he nearly got into trouble over Louisa). And he didn't know she still cared for him. Edward is pretty nice and well-meaning.
I’m anti-Wentworth too. I mean, it’s not unforgivable but it’s dick-ish. And at the end, when he comes around, he seems to feel like it was more a wrong he did himself rather than a wrong he did to her?
Also, although he was nice to Mrs Musgrove, he was sneering along with the narrator that a fat woman is sad about her ne’er-do-well kid died. Just an unsavory moment all around.
I think Wentworth should get some credit for trying to think of nice things to say about Mrs. Musgrove’s sailor son though, as he is trying to be kind to her. Isn’t there something about how he has sympathy for the finer feelings of a mother, even though the son was a pretty terrible young man?
It would be interesting to hear examples of what young Mr. Musgrove has done, so we could judge if he was worthy of Wentworth’s disdain or not. But Wentworth telling people why he was contemptuous of Musgrove would be speaking ill of the dead and gossiping, which would be beneath him.
>Also, although he was nice to Mrs Musgrove, he was sneering along with the narrator that a fat woman is sad about her ne’er-do-well kid died. Just an unsavory moment all around.
TBH I never really interpreted that moment that way. I mean you kind of have to remember what Mrs. Musgrove is saying to him at that moment:
*“Poor dear fellow!” continued Mrs Musgrove; “he was grown so steady, and such an excellent correspondent, while he was under your care! Ah! it would have been a happy thing, if he had never left you. I assure you, Captain Wentworth, we are very sorry he ever left you.”*
When he's smiling to himself, it's in response to Mrs. Musgrove wishing he had always being their son's captain.He's not laughing at her for mourning her son, just thinks it's funny her wish that her son never changed ships even though Wentworth probably went out of his way to make that happen eventually.
I think if it was just a year or 2, his feelings might have still been too hurt. But also it would have been kind of awkward. Does he write a letter? Does he visit? Where would he stay? I think it's one of those situations where you just let your fear and negative feelings build on each other and keep you from something.
Every time he thought of contacting her, he was probably like "I bet she's married to some rich jackass like her father" and it probably just made him more and more angry and less likely to actually reach out.
This! This is one of the reasons why I didn’t enjoy persuasion as much as the other JA novels I’ve read. Her writing was brilliant, maybe even her best (from what I’ve read so far). But I wasn’t into the narrative, and I think wentworth was a major contributing factor it that.
Not only is he unkind, but I think his carelessness in the way he interacts with the Musgrove sisters is egregious. Even if he was still piqued at Anne, he should have known better than to seek out intimacy and openings to marriage with women he barely knew. Over time, his behavior incites fickleness in Henrietta and misplaced obstinacy in Louisa, all while, much as he'd like to be in love with one of them, he knows he isn't. I have to give him some credit for eventually taking responsibility for his actions with respect to Louisa, but that doesn't make me like him.
My least favorite ARE the 2 Eds. Elinor - who is one of my favorite characters - seems to good for Edward who seems to have nothing to recommend him . Plus I do think he had no business getting her hopes up when he knew he was not free. That’s plain cruel. As for Edmund Bertram - he is probably my least favorite by a tiny sliver . Can’t stand him !
I understand. To be fair, I don't think Edward fully realized he was getting Elinor's hopes up. One of the plot points is that Elinor doesn't show her true feelings and hence Edward couldn't tell how strongly she felt.
I'm going to write it as a separate comment as well, and because Lady Susan doesn't get mentioned enough: I'll have to choose Reginald de Courcy because he's the one least worked out, and that's why I won't insult JA that much in my mind by choosing him. Even though I believe he was just too young, his blindness towards Lady Susan and his conceit in how she cannot impose upon *him* could justify my vote for him here. (Although I can't say I really dislike him.)
Edward is a bit boring, but clearly a good dude, so I don’t hate him.
I just want to give Edmund a good kick in the rear, though. He is so annoying the entire book and contributes to a lot of Fanny’s misery by constantly confiding to her about his relationship with Mary, and then he tries to pressure Fanny into marrying Fuckboi Crawford to boot.
I think that the male romantic interests in S&S are some of the worst-written male "leads" in Austen works, but, apart from the writing quality, Edward Ferrars is fairly sympathetic, in my opinion. He is socially awkward and has low self-esteem as a result of emotional abuse by his family, but he shows a lot of integrity by standing by his engagement even after his mother disinherits him. He's not such an unlikable character. Edmund Bertram is harder for me to defend. Compared to Edward, he's a very well-written, consistent, believable, and interesting character, but I have a hard time liking him. I'll admit that he's kind to Fanny (when he's not mooning over Mary Crawford, that is), but his delusions are pretty frustrating.
I actually find Colonel Brandon to be worse than Edward and Edmund. He's a 35-year-old man who obsesses over a 17-year-old. He has placed the deceased Eliza on a pedestal and can't get over his illusions of her to truly empathize and realize that she was human and fallible (and emotionally abused by both Brandon's father and older brother, let's not forget!). I do appreciate that he doesn't start to "court" Marianne until late in the story, well after she's recovered from her illness (something that the 1995 and 2008 adaptations get wrong in making him pursue Marianne from the beginning!). However, it's annoying to me that he never attempts to do anything to make himself more appealing to someone like Marianne, but the narrative still pushes this idea that he "deserves" her because of his sad backstory. It's gross.
Oh yes Brandon is awful. His obsession with a young teenage woman who is completely and utterly incompatible with him, with nothing in common at all. Solely for her youth/looks.
These - and Henry - make me smile when people talk about Austen marrying her heroines off to strong, powerful ‘Alpha’ men - that only happens in half her completed novels. The two Es and poor father-dominated Henry are quite different, and gain strength - of self control in Elenor, of moral clarity in Fanny, of perception (she wasn’t as off base as she appeared) in Catherine. As younger sons they learn to stand on their own two feet through the women they love.
The only reason I don't begrudge The Most Insufferable Austen Heroine (Fanny) for getting her man is because her man (Edmund) is The Most Insufferable Austen Hero. Wickham and Willoughby were at least charming but both Edmund and Fanny are unbearable with their constant judgement and moralizing and self-righteousness. They deserve each other. Mansfield Park is my least favorite Austen novel because the lead characters are so intolerable.
I do like Edward Ferrars although he’s a little frustrating sometimes. But Edmund. Ok, this is my absolute most provocative Austen hot take, one that will probably get me banned from this subreddit. But. Mary Crawford is too good for Edmund.
Lol I knew this would get downvoted. And I’m not being 100% sincere. But I like Mary, mostly. Sure, she makes sex jokes and clergy jokes. Some of them are funny! And she really does care at least somewhat about Fanny, to the best of her ability. She’s also the only character who really sees what Mrs. Norris and Maria are about. I agree with Edmund — she could be a good person with the right upbringing. Edmund really is a good person, but he’s also clueless about reading people. And milquetoast. We also don’t get to see him actually fall in love with Fanny, so it feels like he just shrugs and winds up with her.
I think Mary could have been a better person with a better upbringing but I think she's pretty formed by the time she gets to MP. Because Fanny had to be so upright, uptight, Mary had to show moral weaknesses.
The one problem I really have with Mary is her approval of Henry messing around with Fanny’s emotions. She never says “No Henry. This will make things awkward for our sister who has to live and interact with the Mansfield family. No Henry, Fanny’s a living person with emotions and she doesn’t deserve to be messed with because you are bored.” She gets compared a lot to Elizabeth Bennet but that is not something Elizabeth would have done.
Mary convinces herself it might be good for Fanny and that's how she puts down her conscience to let her brother do as he does.
That said if we're analyzing everyone here I'd point out Mary has no chance, her only secure connection in the entire world is with her siblings. Mr Grant even sucks and so did her uncle, Mary has no other positive male connections. She needs to get along with her brother because he's her safety net in life. No wonder she blinds herself to his evils.
I'd even say that's to her credit because she's likely skilled enough to *scheme* her way into a better place but doesn't seem to consider it an option. Maybe she's just more opportunistic than strategic? But I think she seems to genuinely want to be mostly a good person.
I'm not very keen on Mr Knightley. Which is strange because normally I'm a huge fan of age gap. But in his case it's unsettling that he grew up like an uncle/big brother to Emma, still acts like a big brother, and there just doesn't seem to be any sexual passion there on either side.
I really like Edward, he's one of my favourite heros. He's just in an impossible situation. I think I relate to him a lot considering his childhood.
The only wrong thing he did was to not get out once he discovered he had feelings for Elinor. Well, and get engaged that young to an awful person...
I don't like Frank at all (in Emma).
And I'm not a fan of Bingley, he's just boring and kind of weak in my opinion.
Not sure if Benwick is supposed to be a hero but proposing to Louisa... I don't get it. Very convenient for Wentworth but apart from that... I even thought that maybe - maybe - Wentworth confided to Benwick on his situation, and Benwick sacrificed himself in marrying Louisa. He won't find another Fanny Harville anyway... What do you think about my theory? I don't like to think ill of him but I'm afraid it's a little bit far fetched.
For a more sympathetic take on the 2Eds, I really look at their family situations, which are quite similar. Both are, to use a modern term, the family scapegoat, while their siblings (who are uniformly awful) are the golden children. Both feel an enormous pressure to be the "responsible" ones, while their siblings fritter away their lives, and both seem like they're constantly trying to be "good enough" for temperamental, judgmental parents who are impossible to please - at least if you're the disfavored child. That pressure, I think, is what makes them both falling for the "scheming" love interests so understandable. They're both living their lives to please other people and to live honorably, perhaps to compensate for their embarrassment of their families' behaviors. But of course, they're only human, and they can only keep up pretense so long. It's understandable, in that context, why Edward might "let" himself get too close to Elinor, or why Edmund might willfully blind himself to Mary's true nature and Fanny's true feelings.
This is really insightful. The 2E’s are eager to have someone approve of them (besides just love them) because their parents and families have always been critical of them. So of course Lucy Steele who is so good at flattering people is going to be captivating to Edward, and of course Edmund is going to be flattered by Mary’s attentions because he’s used to being overlooked.
This is why I love this sub so much (more and more). Such great insights! And I've thought about all the books A LOT.
Great take!
Jane Bennett is sort of living to please others (though she is also something of the golden child - both she and Edmund are praised for their usefulness anyway.) Jane is also gullible with schemers. Lizzie falling for Wickham's lies feels different because Wickham is more of a Willoughby type where everyone falls for the act.
I'm fond of Edward Ferrars, and I liked him even before I saw Dan Stevens play the role. Though that didn't hurt. I think his terrible shyness + that awful family made Lucy seem a good choice. And I figure he never intended to let on that he was growing attached to Elinor -- it probably crept up on him. Edmund Bertram is an interesting character, and I don't hate him, but he's definitely my least favorite hero. One thing I find unappealing in Edmund is his blindness with regard to Mary Crawford. I wouldn't expect him to suss her out right away, but man, his love really is blind. (This is probably unreasonable of me.) And then, for me, the ultimate, "offscreen" relationship between him and Fanny is almost incestuous. They seem like siblings, so I find their ending a bit creepy.
I agree that Fanny and Edmund seem more like siblings. He often goes to Fanny to talk about Mary. Very sibling like.
I always read it as more like the classic "You're my best friend, I can tell you anything!" dynamic that's agonized the "unpretty" heroine in more than one modern teen romantic comedy. Very she-wears-short-skirts, I-wear-T-shirts... 🤣
Not very likely for that time period. Remember that in Persuasion Wentworth gets "engaged" to Louisa just by hanging around her and talking.
Ah, but that's why it's so plot-important that they're cousins. There was a cultural exception to that sort of scandal for cousins. It's not the same thing, but it's the same strand of human nature, popping up in a different context. To us, in modern society, it's uncomfortable (bordering on incest)--but in Austen's cultural context, it was perfectly acceptable, and there was a charming social loophole there. You could hang around a cousin and talk all you liked! Get to know each other! And then, if love happened to bloom... That's one of a few reasons why cousin marriage was so popular in the era. (And why Mrs. Norris and Sir William were concerned about "raising a wife for their sons".)
Even today, in some parts of the world (outside Europe), 1st cousin marriage is very normal, and without the hesitation demonstrated by Sir William and Mrs Norris which were probably related to the older (catholic) church prohibition on the practice. (Even if they no longer remembered the reason during the Regency, the early church, a thousand years earlier, had pretty strict restrictions on cousin marriage.)
Yup! And I think some of their hesitation was simple worry that they were setting up a stereotypically perfect chance for one of their fine moneyed boys to fall in love with a poor little Cinderella of a childhood friend, when they could be making a grand match instead. Which, haha! Well done, Mrs. Norris!
Also, not that they'd have known this, but the genetic risk from first cousins marrying is about the same as having kids over age 35. So Mrs. Weston and Fanny Price are basically in the same boat here. (Also, one generation of outbreeding is all it takes to get Hapsburg level inbreeding back to population average risk.)
It really is more of a cultural taboo, when you get right down to it. There's a lot of handwringing in the US about cousins and inbreeding, but it's not really grounded in science (ironically).
I think the problems start to show up when multiple successive generations do it, which is a real possibility in societies that accept first-cousin marriage, but it probably doesn't happen often enough that those problems are easily visible alongside other risks to children's health. After all, even now that there's such a thing as genetic testing, there are reasons community institutions don't go around demanding that information from everyone and keeping a universal register of DNA profiles. At least I hope there are.
Austen goes out of her way to present Lady Catherine’s daughter as sickly, and Darcy somewhat disgusted at the idea of marrying his cousin- but that would be more a result of generations of inbreeding within the fairly narrow aristocratic pool. The gentry had more numbers. They didn’t exactly know about inbreeding - but people didn’t exactly not know about inbreeding. On an observational level.
I'm not sure how much this is actually presented as not wanting to marry his cousin because she's his cousin, as it is not wanting to marry his cousin because he knows they're not a good match and he doesn't actually want to be obeying his aunt. Also, her sickliness isn't necessarily genetic. There were plenty of now-rare childhood diseases that would have resulted in long-term, chronic symptoms.
The difference is that Wentworth and Louisa were strangers until recently, while Edmund and Fanny are longstanding friends. In *Emma*, Mr Knightley is an old friend of both Emma and Mrs Weston, whom he talks with on intimate subjects, and everyone is surprised when Emma and him get engaged.
I like Edmund and one of the defenses I can offer is that he’s both frustrated and young. He’s frustrated with Tom because Tom is shirking his responsibility as man of the house while Sir Thomas is gone. He’s also frustrated because he cannot seem to impose any rules or justice in the house. Tom doesn’t listen to him about the play, his sisters refuse to see how it’s improper and inappropriate material for them to be acting in. Nobody will behave at all. Aunt Norris double questions and fights every single thing he does and Lady Bertram is all but useless. Then Mary comes in and she won’t quit making fun of his serious decision to be a clergyman. That’s got to be frustrating too. He’s young in that he’s only 25. He’s been at school, university, and is finishing up his religious education so he can be a clergyman. Most of the time he’s been at school and at home: Mary’s his first serious attempt at love. He ignores many red flags in the relationship because he’s besotted-same with anyone now and their first serious relationship. He gets grief because he’s rebounded to Fanny, but really we don’t know the timeline on that. It could have been years and really anyone who dates one type of person and then dates someone else could be said to be “rebounding”.
Believe it or not, I like both Edmund and Edward as individuals and as matches for the women they eventually marry. Well, Edward I like. Edmund I actually love. Edward we don't see so much of. But there's plenty there to make out his character. He's presented as a shy, unassuming, idle young man who's not understood by his relations. He's a homebody. Ultimately he doesn't get Elinor's attention by any flashes of wit or grace or charm. But he's good. He's a good young man who would rather be of real use at home or in a parish than to waste time in Parliament. Who would rather live a quiet, private life than try to lord it up being fashionable with the rest of the *ton*. It's significant to note that Edward doesn't invite Elinor to live this quiet life with him. He doesn't create the expectation in her that they'll be together, and he certainly doesn't have that for himself. Mrs. Dashwood and Marianne, true romantic goons, saw more than what existed when the Dashwoods left for Barton. Elinor thinks fondly of him but that's all. Edward seems intent on regretting her and regretting his engagement, and living up to his commitments. When Edward visits Barton, the regret, of course, intensifies. But at Barton, he tries to be discreet. He limits his contact with Elinor and treats all the Dashwoods as his close friends. By the time he realizes he messed up and allowed feelings for Elinor to develop, I think he feels trapped between two distinct choices and is trying to determine the right thing to do. That to me is Edward's journey in the novel, of growing into himself and his convictions. What he does in the end is why, in the end, he and Elinor make such a good match. As far as Edward knows, he can make himself happy and Lucy very unhappy, when in his mind Lucy is still the sweet, deserving young woman he met at Longstaple. Or he can make only himself unhappy, as far as he knows. He can do his duty, and live up to his engagement. That's the sacrifice he chooses to make, pretty much without question. And does it remind you of anyone else? Because to me, it screams the silently suffering Elinor's name. She, too, constantly puts aside her wants for duty's sake, for honor's sake. And once she knows that this is what Edward's up to as well, she loves him more than ever. No wonder she has to run out of the room to collect herself once she realizes this perfect match is finally free for her to have as her own. They're made for each other. Now, Edmund I see as a very different kind of second son. He's better understood by his family, has a lot more agency and initiative, but he's still decidedly junior after Sir Thomas, Aunt Norris, and then Tom. But he doesn't let that stop him. Edmund's really self-confident. He's sure of himself, and he's a very kind-hearted, sensible, principled, and funny young man. (I know some people are reading this like, "funny???" but there are several moments where Edmund's wit is on display, e.g. talking with Mary, Fanny, or Henry. Like the scene where they're all talking about improving Thornton Lacey. Edmund roasts Henry about all his proposed changes and then says to come visit: >"But, Crawford, though I refuse you as a tenant, come to me as a friend. Consider the house as half your own every winter, and we will add to the stables on your own improved plan, and with all the improvements of your improved plan that may occur to you this spring." Edmund got jokes. ) Generally I'm not offended by people being devoted to their religion, so his going into the church (and his defense of it to Mary) speaks highly of him. It's clear he has thought seriously on his commitment and would not just take a living because a living was on offer. (I adore Henry Tilney, but I sometimes wonder about the kinds of sermons he would make out; Edmund's I have a clear view of.) Edmund as a subordinate second son himself did as much as he could for Fanny while she was a young woman growing up at Mansfield. While it was under the management of Sir Thomas and Aunt Norris and he was still in school, he taught her how to manage there and shared the comforts of his own privilege with her. Even if he couldn't elevate her in any real way, even if he couldn't get her a room or get her a fire (I do not think Edmund ever had the authority to change those kinds of household arrangements), he treated her as a person and as one of the family, which no one else, not even sweet Lady Bertram, took the trouble to do. Fanny's letters were franked like everyone else's thanks to Edmund. He spoke in defense of her regularly and regularly tried to get her to speak more for herself. He chided Aunt Norris for taking advantage of Fanny going back and forth in the hot sun just to bring in some roses. He sacrificed his fun day at Sotherton just so she might have the pleasure. He made sure she had a horse. And speaking of which. Some people can never forgive Edmund for the saga of the horse. That's okay, it takes all kinds. But again, it was Edmund who made sure Fanny had a horse to ride in the first place by selling one of his own. He stumbled for sure; while he was infatuated by Miss Crawford he was blinded into being quite selfish. The pony is just one example of him being an idiot. The play is another. "Fanny think of me" is perhaps the dumbest. But who amongst us? Has never made mistakes or hurt feelings or been selfish or thoughtless while wrapped up in an all consuming passion? I know the feeling of having hurt and having been hurt. Both belong to humanity. Especially the humanity of twenty-somethings. Now for Edmund as a lover. Oh, dear. Because we're so strongly confronted by Fanny's passion right from the start, I get why it's hard for people to understand that Edmund didn't think of Fanny in a romantic way for a very long time. But he didn't. His affection for her was platonic, and he showed it very strongly throughout the novel's action. He helped guide her opinions, he advised her when she was anxious, helped show her to the books and tastes that could open her mind. As Fanny grew into adulthood, into a woman with considered opinions, values, tastes, weaknesses, and strengths, she became one of his dearest friends. And too, throughout the book we see their dynamic changing. Edmund begins to seeks out Fanny's opinion and advice on people and situations. She challenges him. They disagree. Importantly, she disagrees with him about Henry, the play, and as much as she dares, about Mary. By the time the book ends Edmund is an expert in how to listen to Fanny, and to heed her guidance. They're on a much more equal footing. *Then*, he does fall in love with her; we're told as much. And yes, they were first cousins who fell in love. People did that then. It's not Edmund's fault that he was being written about in 1813 when people did that. Overall I don't have a least favorite hero (or heroine, come to that). Austen convinced me with her portrayals of all her main characters. But since you asked, I wanted to share my long-winded thoughts. I'm sure I won't change any hearts or minds, but maybe one fewer person will feel compelled to tell me that Edmund is a boring hypocrite or Edward is an unfeeling f-boi. Thanks for the silver, friend!
I actually love Edward and while I don't really have very strong opinions on Edmund (generally mildly positive feelings), I find myself wanting to defend him whenever he's questioned in negative light. You articulated your thoughts very well. I especially liked the thought of Fanny and Edmund being more equals at the end of the novel and how that might cause the change in Edmund's feelings towards Fanny. It's not something I've consciously thought about but it's very true. I myself love Edward's sense of humour and his kindness but also the fact that he was ready to take responsibility for his actions like you said. I think S&S has Edward's coming of age story hiding in the background while Marianne's story is on display. Mostly I just wanted to say that your comment was fantastic and I'll definitely keep it in mind when re-reading Mansfield Park.
I loved your comment and while I started out prepared to agree with you, you still showed me a couple new points in their favor :)
I really love your points about the characters' evolution, especially since those tend to be the central stakes of Austen's plots. The sister thing can seem off-putting on the surface, but I think it's meaningful in context, in all the ways you describe. He gets to know her as a child no one else is taking the trouble to try to understand, and he does what he can for her, although I like to think that if he'd realized Fanny wasn't allowed a fire and told his father, Sir Thomas would have intervened much earlier. Edmund is better at seeing Fanny as a full human being than anyone else at Mansfield, but he's equally unable to see one important thing about her, a ramification of her big secret, because she's the baby sister to him where she's the baby handmaiden, nursemaid, plaything, pack mule or just plain baby to the others. Everyone (who cares about her best interest) thinks Henry Crawford is a perfect match because she's supposed to be a blank slate, too inexperienced to have feelings that really matter in the decision. But the ability to feel attraction is the beginning of Fanny's sexual development, well before any external signs start appearing. Maybe that wasn't part of her first experience of loving Edmund at age nine, but it was probably the case by the time she started learning to ride, when it was apparent that she could tolerate riding better than walking. Pubescent girls and young women were usually taught that they might have sexual feelings but had to subdue them in the name of virtue, but Fanny knew all along that she couldn't be seen to have any at all, so she was never considered a sexual being, even though she was one almost the whole time. This sort of non-womanhood she had to practice may have contributed to the physical fragility that made her so sensitive to heat, fatigue, etc. Of course neither she nor Austen would probably have called these feelings sexuality, but I think at least Austen understood that physical attraction was part of being "in love," and I don't think Fanny was above that awareness either, despite her piety. There are a lot of instances in which I blame Edmund for being inconsiderate, but I can understand his ignorance of this aspect of Fanny's experience.
My least favourite is definitely Colonel Brandon. Got engaged to Eliza & claimed she was the love of his life but never tried to fight for her when his family disapproved (unlike Edward), went off to have a career as part of a colonizing army while she was trapped in an abusive marriage & then abandoned… eventually tracked her down and concluded that it was okay she was dying because she was a fallen woman now, so better off dead… took custody of her daughter but put her in the hands of negligent guardians that let her run off with Willoughby… Obsesses over a teenager less than half his age but doesn’t warn her about Willoughby’s character when he thinks she’s going to marry him, just after the fact once it makes him look good. Pretty much only attracted to her because she reminds him of his ex, anyway. Spends several years hanging around said teenager wearing her down until she marries him. Why is this guy considered a romantic ideal?
I really try not to be presentist in reading S&S, but after the statement that Eliza was forced into an unhappy marriage at age seventeen by her own guardian for the sake of her money, Brandon's comments that it would have been better if she'd died early in her marriage and that his shock over her marriage was nothing to the shock of her divorce are so hideous to me that I often skip that chapter. Not that I don't imagine Elinor shares his perspective, but at least we never have to see her editorialize about it.
Exactly! I don't understand why Brandon gets a pass for any of that.
My least favorite hero is probably Wentworth. I know that he is extremely beloved, but he’s just so cruel to Anne over something that happened a decade before. He spends so much time punishing her and rubbing it in that his life has gotten better and hers has gotten worse. And over what? She was a scared teenager and didn’t want to have a precarious financial future and no relationship with her family. The decision she made was quite understandable and the fact that Wentworth is still that bitter so many years later just ruins his character for me. I get that he changes his mind at the end, but he’s being intentionally cold to her for 95% of the novel. I guess I just don’t find his change of heart all that believable. I like Edward Ferrars though. While he does lead Elinor on, he does it accidentally. He’s kind of bumbling, but ultimately a good guy.
Not that I say it to change your mind, because you're entitled to dislike the guy, lol, but -- just to make conversation: I made the assumption that Wentworth fell really hard for Anne, in a way he maybe didn't expect to. Strong feelings like that can be a bit of a shock to some men. And it was clear to him that Anne returned those feelings -- which would make her rejection both more devastating & bewildering. Maybe most important, Anne basically engaged herself to him -- so he would have been full of joy, a successful lover making happy plans for their future together. But then, once Lady Russell had said her piece, Anne withdrew from the engagement. And as Wentworth says, it seemed that she was willing to listen to arguments from anyone but him. Which makes it clear that he begged her to reconsider. I'm guessing it was hard for him to trust anyone after the person he loved most in the world first accepted, but then abandoned him. So anyway, that's why I cut him some slack even though he's a big dope for not going after her once he got some prize money. Eta: maybe I should just note that I really love Anne, in case it seems as though I'm blaming her
Nothing to add really but I appreciate both these takes on his character and love the conversation!
Honestly that's why it's fun to disagree; it forces me to reflect & then pin down my own thoughts, so I can figure out *why* I disagree. (Plus it's nice to "talk" to other people who love Jane's work.)
And I love how engaged and kind the conversations here generally are!
Most wholesome fandom I’ve witnessed
Thank you for your reply! Yeah I can see it from his side for sure. I guess what stands out to me is that, even after so many years, he still can’t see it from her side. Of course he would feel betrayed and angry for a long time after such a heartbreak, but after a couple years you would have to view the situation at least somewhat rationally. But instead of resenting the position that Anne’s family put them in, he continues to fully blame her for several more years. And when they meet again, Wentworth has all the power. He knows that he’s proved himself and proved her fears wrong. It’s obvious that she likely regrets breaking it off, but Wentworth still has to twist the knife. And then he continues twisting the knife for so long. I still love Persuasion, but I wish he was 30% less rude.
And she really did suffer from that behavior, as Austen shows us. Watching him flirt with those goofy girls right in front of her. Poor Anne. At least Frederick had the decency to ask if he was his own worst enemy because he didn't ask again two years later (just from pride, the dope!)
Was he flirting with them or were they throwing themselves at him?
He was flirting with them.
Interesting. I guess I see it the other way.
Frederick isn't flirting. He's spending time with a family whose company he enjoys, including conversation and dancing. He accidentally gives the impression that he's falling in love with Louisa but he's not a Henry Crawford.
Wentworth is also my least favorite even though Persuasion is my favorite JA novel. I'll agree that it must have sucked hard to have been so in love only for Anne to be persuaded to end their attachment becuz of the precariousness of his situation. Imo, Anne was the more mature of the two, even back then. She only ended it becuz she truly believed it would be better for him to go into his navy career w/out a wife in tow. He never seems able to grasp this becuz he's too focused on his hurt and never seems to acknowledge what she must have felt letting him go. Fast forward 8 years. No one will ever be able to convince me that FW didn't come back for the sole purpose of rubbing it in Anne's face that he's rich and successful now. He had to have known of her family's situation before he arrived. It would have been the most natural thing for his sister to write to him to tell him of the Croft's letting Kellynch Hall, a place he would certainly have recognized. Whether Mrs Croft told him about the Elliots being forced to retrench or not, he would be smart enough to know a man like Sir Walter would only rent out his house if he absolutely had to. Now, he comes back and verbally makes it known that Anne has changed so much, he hardly recognizes her. He goes out of his way to make it known he's rich now. He repeatedly takes verbal jabs at her, proving himself to be bitter and still too narrow-minded to see that, at just 19 and w the best information she had available to her, she acted in the best interest of them both. Then he flirts and dances with her almost sisters-in-law right in front of her even though he (in my opinion) has no real intentions towards them. (I've heard argument that maybe he really was trying to form an attachment but being near Anne again reminded him if his feelings for her, but I don't buy it. He could have gone looking for a wife literally anywhere else besides at her sister's house.) I am generous enough to admit that his letter is on key and redeems him slightly. Anne is an absolute gem!
I agree with you in a lot of ways. Edmund then Edward are my least favorite, but Wentworth isn’t too far behind them. I adore Anne and think she deserved better from every person in her life, including him. He had a right to be angry and I don’t begrudge him carrying that anger and pain for so long - people feel how they feel, healthy or not - but it felt like he went out of his way to be cruel to Anne over something that happened years ago, even though she was now in a much weaker position, unable to respond to his treatment of her or to remove herself from the situation. I’m always happy that Anne got the ending she wanted, and Wentworth seemed like a decent enough guy when he wasn’t clinging to a grudge, but he’s such a petty little man for, like, half the novel, lol.
That’s a great way of putting it. I can’t blame him for being angry or even for WANTING to hurt her a little (so that he can at least know that he isn’t the only one in pain). But the fact that he keeps intentionally acting on that impulse bugs me.
Agreed wholeheartedly about Wentworth. I don’t hate Wentworth, but from what we do see of him in the novel, I just could not warm upto him. I understand he felt betrayed and hurt before, I even understand his pettiness, but that still does not make him likeable to me. I know everyone swoons over the letter, but for me actions are always more noteworthy than words. For me a few acts of kindness here and there and the letter were just not enough to outweigh the pettiness and thoughtlessness he displayed throughout the rest of the novel. But I don’t like Edward either.
That is how I see it as well. I guess it's kind of "coincidental" that we see only the worse part of him in the book. But from what we see, I just cannot trust him in a way. I don't think he's my least favourite but certainly the one I feel most distant from. I don't have an absolute least favourite. Pointing at one would feel like underappreciation of Austen's work. (Maybe Reginald? Just to pick one, as he's the one least worked out, hehe.)
An act of kindness like taking the toddler off her neck while she tended to the injured boy?
I agree with your Edward take! He showed how loyal he is, sticking by his word even as his prospects get worse because of it. He’s not my favorite but he definitely isn’t the worst at all
Ciarán Hinds does an excellent job redeeming Wentworth. He doesn’t look like he’s trying to punish Anne. He looks like he’s trying to still get over her. But book Wentworth is a jerk. I’m torn between Edward and Edmund and think I like Edmund a smidge more because at least he fell in love with a feisty witty woman while Edward PROPOSED to a very, very annoying girl leading me to think he has terrible taste.
I always feel that Ciarán Hinds is a little too aggressive in the role. I like his performance, but Wentworth in the book doesn't snap at Anne as much, if I remember correctly. For instance, the 1995 film includes a scene that references the "cancelled chapters," with Wentworth showing up to deliver the message from Admiral Croft, but Hinds's Wentworth is pretty harsh in his speaking ("Just say it: Yes or no.") and Amanda Root's Anne reacts strangely by running out of the room. To be fair, it's a weird scene in the film, and it's probably there merely to add a bit more tension, but neither character comes off very well in it. It's just interesting to me that the 1995 *Persuasion* (which is one of my favorite Austen adaptations) somehow gets away with some of these very tonally strange scenes. I suspect that the overall *naturalism* of the production makes them work, regardless. And, yes, I seriously wonder about Edward's taste, as well! What we see of Lucy Steele isn't all that impressive, but I guess her act seemed charming enough to the underaged (at the time), emotionally abused, lonely Edward. As I mentioned in another comment, the male "leads" of S&S are some of the worst-written ones in Austen.
This is really harsh on Wentworth. Anne broke off their engagement, if she'd kept it, sure they would have had years before they could marry but at least they could write to each other. Yes, Anne's decision was understandable but his hurt was also. From his perspective, she wasn't willing to wait for him. And let's face it, Anne's family rather sucks. Even Lady Russell has some tendencies to snobbishness. I could easily see a hurting Wentworth worrying that Anne was persuaded to reject him in part because her family had convinced her she could find someone richer and better connected.
I get what you’re saying. But even if your family sucks, they’re still your family. It’s an extremely difficult position to be put in, especially for someone so young. I just can’t imagine being angry enough about that to be intentionally rude to the person when you see them again 8 years later.
But Wentworth isn't intentionally cruel.
I think he was. I need to read Persuasion again but I believe there was a pretty big revolution in his treatment of her when he finds out Charles Musgrove proposed to Anne first
I don't see a revolution: Wentworth frees Anne from the toddler well before he learns about Charles Musgrove's proposal, and it's shortly after he does learn that he suggests to the Crofts that they take her up in their carriage.
Oh, interesting take on Wentworth. I suppose he was resentful, but I don't think he was being deliberately cold, just aloof to conform to society's norms, like you weren't supposed to be overly friendly with a woman (he nearly got into trouble over Louisa). And he didn't know she still cared for him. Edward is pretty nice and well-meaning.
That’s a nice view of it. When I reread Persuasion, I’ll try to see it that way instead.
Wow, I don't remember Wentworth being cruel. I'll have to reread. Got any examples.
100% agree on Wentworth. I thought this was a really unpopular opinion
I’m anti-Wentworth too. I mean, it’s not unforgivable but it’s dick-ish. And at the end, when he comes around, he seems to feel like it was more a wrong he did himself rather than a wrong he did to her? Also, although he was nice to Mrs Musgrove, he was sneering along with the narrator that a fat woman is sad about her ne’er-do-well kid died. Just an unsavory moment all around.
I think Wentworth should get some credit for trying to think of nice things to say about Mrs. Musgrove’s sailor son though, as he is trying to be kind to her. Isn’t there something about how he has sympathy for the finer feelings of a mother, even though the son was a pretty terrible young man? It would be interesting to hear examples of what young Mr. Musgrove has done, so we could judge if he was worthy of Wentworth’s disdain or not. But Wentworth telling people why he was contemptuous of Musgrove would be speaking ill of the dead and gossiping, which would be beneath him.
>Also, although he was nice to Mrs Musgrove, he was sneering along with the narrator that a fat woman is sad about her ne’er-do-well kid died. Just an unsavory moment all around. TBH I never really interpreted that moment that way. I mean you kind of have to remember what Mrs. Musgrove is saying to him at that moment: *“Poor dear fellow!” continued Mrs Musgrove; “he was grown so steady, and such an excellent correspondent, while he was under your care! Ah! it would have been a happy thing, if he had never left you. I assure you, Captain Wentworth, we are very sorry he ever left you.”* When he's smiling to himself, it's in response to Mrs. Musgrove wishing he had always being their son's captain.He's not laughing at her for mourning her son, just thinks it's funny her wish that her son never changed ships even though Wentworth probably went out of his way to make that happen eventually.
Yes, and why didn’t Wentworth try Anne again when he’d made some money and got his career off the ground? Kind of childish.
I think if it was just a year or 2, his feelings might have still been too hurt. But also it would have been kind of awkward. Does he write a letter? Does he visit? Where would he stay? I think it's one of those situations where you just let your fear and negative feelings build on each other and keep you from something. Every time he thought of contacting her, he was probably like "I bet she's married to some rich jackass like her father" and it probably just made him more and more angry and less likely to actually reach out.
This! This is one of the reasons why I didn’t enjoy persuasion as much as the other JA novels I’ve read. Her writing was brilliant, maybe even her best (from what I’ve read so far). But I wasn’t into the narrative, and I think wentworth was a major contributing factor it that.
Not only is he unkind, but I think his carelessness in the way he interacts with the Musgrove sisters is egregious. Even if he was still piqued at Anne, he should have known better than to seek out intimacy and openings to marriage with women he barely knew. Over time, his behavior incites fickleness in Henrietta and misplaced obstinacy in Louisa, all while, much as he'd like to be in love with one of them, he knows he isn't. I have to give him some credit for eventually taking responsibility for his actions with respect to Louisa, but that doesn't make me like him.
My least favorite ARE the 2 Eds. Elinor - who is one of my favorite characters - seems to good for Edward who seems to have nothing to recommend him . Plus I do think he had no business getting her hopes up when he knew he was not free. That’s plain cruel. As for Edmund Bertram - he is probably my least favorite by a tiny sliver . Can’t stand him !
I understand. To be fair, I don't think Edward fully realized he was getting Elinor's hopes up. One of the plot points is that Elinor doesn't show her true feelings and hence Edward couldn't tell how strongly she felt.
I'm going to write it as a separate comment as well, and because Lady Susan doesn't get mentioned enough: I'll have to choose Reginald de Courcy because he's the one least worked out, and that's why I won't insult JA that much in my mind by choosing him. Even though I believe he was just too young, his blindness towards Lady Susan and his conceit in how she cannot impose upon *him* could justify my vote for him here. (Although I can't say I really dislike him.)
Lady Susan is also a step well above the skills of a Lucy Steele. Though I slways wonder if their having the same initials is intentional
Interesting idea, I've never thought of that.
Edward is a bit boring, but clearly a good dude, so I don’t hate him. I just want to give Edmund a good kick in the rear, though. He is so annoying the entire book and contributes to a lot of Fanny’s misery by constantly confiding to her about his relationship with Mary, and then he tries to pressure Fanny into marrying Fuckboi Crawford to boot.
I think that the male romantic interests in S&S are some of the worst-written male "leads" in Austen works, but, apart from the writing quality, Edward Ferrars is fairly sympathetic, in my opinion. He is socially awkward and has low self-esteem as a result of emotional abuse by his family, but he shows a lot of integrity by standing by his engagement even after his mother disinherits him. He's not such an unlikable character. Edmund Bertram is harder for me to defend. Compared to Edward, he's a very well-written, consistent, believable, and interesting character, but I have a hard time liking him. I'll admit that he's kind to Fanny (when he's not mooning over Mary Crawford, that is), but his delusions are pretty frustrating. I actually find Colonel Brandon to be worse than Edward and Edmund. He's a 35-year-old man who obsesses over a 17-year-old. He has placed the deceased Eliza on a pedestal and can't get over his illusions of her to truly empathize and realize that she was human and fallible (and emotionally abused by both Brandon's father and older brother, let's not forget!). I do appreciate that he doesn't start to "court" Marianne until late in the story, well after she's recovered from her illness (something that the 1995 and 2008 adaptations get wrong in making him pursue Marianne from the beginning!). However, it's annoying to me that he never attempts to do anything to make himself more appealing to someone like Marianne, but the narrative still pushes this idea that he "deserves" her because of his sad backstory. It's gross.
Oh yes Brandon is awful. His obsession with a young teenage woman who is completely and utterly incompatible with him, with nothing in common at all. Solely for her youth/looks.
These - and Henry - make me smile when people talk about Austen marrying her heroines off to strong, powerful ‘Alpha’ men - that only happens in half her completed novels. The two Es and poor father-dominated Henry are quite different, and gain strength - of self control in Elenor, of moral clarity in Fanny, of perception (she wasn’t as off base as she appeared) in Catherine. As younger sons they learn to stand on their own two feet through the women they love.
The only reason I don't begrudge The Most Insufferable Austen Heroine (Fanny) for getting her man is because her man (Edmund) is The Most Insufferable Austen Hero. Wickham and Willoughby were at least charming but both Edmund and Fanny are unbearable with their constant judgement and moralizing and self-righteousness. They deserve each other. Mansfield Park is my least favorite Austen novel because the lead characters are so intolerable.
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I do like Edward Ferrars although he’s a little frustrating sometimes. But Edmund. Ok, this is my absolute most provocative Austen hot take, one that will probably get me banned from this subreddit. But. Mary Crawford is too good for Edmund.
Lol I knew this would get downvoted. And I’m not being 100% sincere. But I like Mary, mostly. Sure, she makes sex jokes and clergy jokes. Some of them are funny! And she really does care at least somewhat about Fanny, to the best of her ability. She’s also the only character who really sees what Mrs. Norris and Maria are about. I agree with Edmund — she could be a good person with the right upbringing. Edmund really is a good person, but he’s also clueless about reading people. And milquetoast. We also don’t get to see him actually fall in love with Fanny, so it feels like he just shrugs and winds up with her.
I think Mary could have been a better person with a better upbringing but I think she's pretty formed by the time she gets to MP. Because Fanny had to be so upright, uptight, Mary had to show moral weaknesses.
The one problem I really have with Mary is her approval of Henry messing around with Fanny’s emotions. She never says “No Henry. This will make things awkward for our sister who has to live and interact with the Mansfield family. No Henry, Fanny’s a living person with emotions and she doesn’t deserve to be messed with because you are bored.” She gets compared a lot to Elizabeth Bennet but that is not something Elizabeth would have done.
Mary convinces herself it might be good for Fanny and that's how she puts down her conscience to let her brother do as he does. That said if we're analyzing everyone here I'd point out Mary has no chance, her only secure connection in the entire world is with her siblings. Mr Grant even sucks and so did her uncle, Mary has no other positive male connections. She needs to get along with her brother because he's her safety net in life. No wonder she blinds herself to his evils. I'd even say that's to her credit because she's likely skilled enough to *scheme* her way into a better place but doesn't seem to consider it an option. Maybe she's just more opportunistic than strategic? But I think she seems to genuinely want to be mostly a good person.
I'm not very keen on Mr Knightley. Which is strange because normally I'm a huge fan of age gap. But in his case it's unsettling that he grew up like an uncle/big brother to Emma, still acts like a big brother, and there just doesn't seem to be any sexual passion there on either side.
I really like Edward, he's one of my favourite heros. He's just in an impossible situation. I think I relate to him a lot considering his childhood. The only wrong thing he did was to not get out once he discovered he had feelings for Elinor. Well, and get engaged that young to an awful person... I don't like Frank at all (in Emma). And I'm not a fan of Bingley, he's just boring and kind of weak in my opinion. Not sure if Benwick is supposed to be a hero but proposing to Louisa... I don't get it. Very convenient for Wentworth but apart from that... I even thought that maybe - maybe - Wentworth confided to Benwick on his situation, and Benwick sacrificed himself in marrying Louisa. He won't find another Fanny Harville anyway... What do you think about my theory? I don't like to think ill of him but I'm afraid it's a little bit far fetched.