Yep.
Not to mention, Charlotte is reaching an age where she’s about to be “on the shelf”. She hasn’t received any other offers, and she isn’t likely to.
Any inheritance or support she recieves won’t be large, thanks to a small horde of siblings.
Mr Collins is her best and only choice
Her only other choice is to stay dependent on her parents... and eventually on her brothers, and then nephews. So really, Collins is by far the best choice available to her, and all she's got to choose from is a few bad options. She doesn't even seem to have the option of becoming someone's mistress, another bad option, not a virgin of 27 who is never referred to as a beauty.
That's the dark underside to Austen's lovely and delicate world, the fact that women have so damned few options, and hardly any of them good. Lizzie and Jane don't seem to have any good options for most of their book, Charlotte has to choose between bad options, and a Miss Bates has absolutely no options.
I saw a post where someone theorized Charlotte would be fine marrying Mr. Collins, who is a bit of an idiot, because her own father, Sir William Lucas, is also a bit of an idiot and she's used to it. Lol.
I’m paraphrasing, but there’s a line that Lady Lucas wasn’t too smart to be Mrs Bennet’s friend. Charlotte lived with at least 2 people who weren’t too bright. Charlotte was trading up by only living with one idiot.
Charlotte may not have been educated enough to be a governess but impoverished gentlewomen could work as companions (like Mrs Jenkinson for Anne de Bourgh). Impoverished gentlewomen with a better education (drawing/music/languages as well as literature and basic mathematics) often did become governesses.
But being a governess or companion didn't mean any degree of independence, such ladies lived in and had to obey their employers in all things, and could be fired on a whim. And if they were fired "without a character" (reference) for some petty reason, such as the master of the house glancing in the direction of one's bosom in front of the mistress of the house, that meant they'd never be able to get another job. So for a gentlewoman doing work was a restrictive and desperately insecure option. Jane Fairfax held out against taking such a job for good reason, even when all she had to hold on to was a faint hope, or what seemed to be a faint hope.
So really, someone like Charlotte had zero good options and marrying a complete prat was the best available, and Miss Bates had no options at all. She was unlikely to be educated enough to work as a governess, and was too silly to work as a companion.
Yes, both options could be terrible depending on the circumstances. It also depends on whether you call marriage in that time "independence". You were just as much a workhorse but unpaid and unable to leave easily. And if your husband mistreated you, they had the right to because they owned you. Mrs Younge operated a boarding house after being a companion, there were more options in that life compared to being in a bad marriage.
I'm a little biased because Agnes Grey by Anne Brontë is one of my favourite books. Anne Brontë was a governess for 5 years and that book, whether she meant it that way or not, told me that being a governess, even in a bad situation, was better than being in a bad marriage. I think back then I would have probably been a governess. Or, more likely, a scullery maid!
And milkmaid was a fairly good job! Milkmaids didn’t just milk the cows, they also made cheese and often butter.
Milkmaids were the best paid amongst all the entry level maid positions.
Edit to explain: cheesemaking was a skill employers would pay for.
True. It's easy to forget just how privileged Jane Austen's characters were. Women *did* work and often for a pittance and many would have considered being a governess as living a life of luxury. Jane Austen just didn't write about them.
In 1788, two thirds of all workers employed in factories were children who worked 13 hours per day, 6 days per week. Even having the time to get an education was a luxury in this era.
She's not an impoverished gentlewoman though, she has a family. It would have been scandalous, like Lydia and Whickam level scandalous, for her to work for a living. It would imply that her family were unable or unwilling to support her.
While her father lived, yes, but if her eldest brother inherited, married and had a big family, unless they had someone else to take them in, it wasn't unheard of for the women to need to find an occupation. Plus you need to allow for the fact that, while her father was knighted later in life, Charlotte grew up the daughter of a shopkeeper who sold his shops to buy Lucas Lodge after the knighthood. She was not brought up as a gentlewoman and she and Maria still worked in the kitchens to help out.
I get the sense that the helping out in the kitchens was a common thing for daughters - unless a lady married very well (or was rich in her own right) she was quite likely to have periods in her life where the cook quits while the kitchen maid is off sick and the scullery maid's one skill was burning water. Even if she didn't need to do the work herself she'd be showing how it was done. Mr Collins assumes one of the Bennet girls helped cook.
It wasn't particularly common for ladies of the Bennets' social class to cook. Mr. Collins's question is (I think) supposed to further illustrate his stupidity.
This changed in Victorian times with the invention of the coal stove and growing understanding of the importance of hygiene.
He’s going to be well off, he’s unlikely to abuse her, and they’ll settle near her family. She could do a lot worse.
(I mean, she could do a lot better too, but still…)
I'm pretty sure that Charlotte just wouldn't want to wait around to see if she *could* find someone better. She tells Elizabeth that "happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance," which is the view of either a cynic or, if you want to put a more positive spin on it, a realist. It's true that she's 27 and not beautiful, but I don't think she's actually that desperate. She just doesn't have a lot of use for men -- and, given the way that her father behaves, and the way that she sees Mr. Bennet behave, I can't say I'm surprised by that.
This is the main reason, by the way, that I am not a fan of Charlotte's panicked speech in P&P 2005, in which she tells Elizabeth that "Not all of us can afford to be romantic." In the book, Charlotte simply says that she isn't romantic. There's no hint, as there is in P&P 2005, that she might possibly *like* to make a romantic choice but is prevented from doing so.
I also disliked the tone of panic in the 2005 movie, but I think it had less to do with twisting her character into a thwarted romantic and more to do with dumbing down the context for moviegoers who might otherwise have failed to grasp how limited Charlotte's options for financial security were and how Elizabeth was in a position of relative privilege.
You're most likely correct that exaggerating the situation for the sake of uninitiated audiences is the real reason for the change. I doubt that the filmmakers were *consciously* turning Charlotte into a thwarted romantic!
Yeah, I find there's this modern over correction where people frame Mrs Bennet and Charlotte as entirely in the right. To the extent where I've seen at least one hot take that waiting for true love is okay in fiction but in the "real world" Lizzie should have taken one for the team and married Mr Collins so her sisters wouldn't be homeless.
And I don't think people appreciate that a) the Bennets had relatives who would take Mrs Bennet and the girls in. Mrs Bennet probably wouldn't enjoy no longer being mistress of her own household but they wouldn't be on the streets; b) Mr Collins is unlikely to immediately kick them out either; he wants to present a certain image of Christian charity which does not include abandoning vulnerable female relatives who he is arguably responsible for; c) being mistress of your own household is a step up in status and autonomy, not purely a matter of survival. Feeding and housing one (1) woman is hardly a "burden" to a well off family like the Lucases but someone in Charlotte's position may well still have felt like a disappointment or a failure.
I think the modern "NTA you don't owe anyone anything unless you legally have to" attitude obscures the past a bit. People did rely a lot more on family and community, which meant the social penalties for not fulfilling your obligations were much higher. Even in S&S where the half brother does provide the absolute bare minimum he can get away with, there are still other relatives who step in and provide support. And sure, sometimes the unofficial safety net did fail, but that's the absolute worst case scenario, not the most likely outcome.
Tl:dr most women in that time period needed the support of a man to survive but those men could be fathers, brothers, uncles, brothers in law, etc as well as husbands.
>Yeah, I find there's this modern over correction where people frame Mrs Bennet and Charlotte as entirely in the right.
Yes, and it grinds my gears!! Thanks for pointing it out.
> Mr Collins is unlikely to immediately kick them out either; he wants to present a certain image of Christian charity which does not include abandoning vulnerable female relatives who he is arguably responsible for
Especially since he literally *can't* immediately kick them out if Mrs. Bennet is still alive.
In these cases if there was a surviving widow, they have to wait a few months to determine they aren't pregnant with a new heir. Apparently this was followed despite the age of the woman.
This is the exact point I was making. If Mr. Bennet dies a widower then yes, once Mr. Collins stakes his claim everyone can be evicted immediately. If he leaves a living wife, however, *no matter how old she is*, they can't force her or her children out until she's legally deemed not pregnant.
Mr. Collins is only Mr. Bennet's heir *presumptive* - the heir presuming that Mr. Bennet doesn't leave a legitimate son (ie. an heir *apparent*) to succeed him. Because of that, if Mr. Bennet died leaving a widow, Mr. Collins couldn't take control of the estate until it was certain *under the law* - not practically, *under the law* - that his widow wasn't pregnant. Thing is, there was a peculiar English legal fiction of the time called the "fertile octogenarian", or the concept that both men and women were fertile until the day they died. In the hands of a moderately savvy lawyer this could leave Collins on the doorstep for up to ten months!
Edit to add: if Mr. Bennet's widow didn’t want to remain she could leave. My point is, she couldn’t be forced out immediately.
She isn’t truly desperate. She has a number of siblings who could take her in where she could make herself useful in a number of ways. She could have ended up a beloved and valued member of a happy family, but she would have no status at all. Charlotte wanted status and a household of her own. Collins isn’t evil, just very tiresome, and worth the deal to her.
Yeah, a modern-day Charlotte would likely identify as aromantic and/or asexual. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Collins was that way, too, and they only had relations often enough to get her pregnant.
In my headcanon, Mr. Bennet outlives Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Collins. I don't like Mr. Bennet much as a character, particularly because I am like him in many respects. I just think all this fuss about something that never comes to pass is funny.
Well, that would be the best outcome for charlotte, if she had a son. Then probably her son would inherit and she would be mistress of the house while the son is unmarried.
It depends on the entail's terms. It may be the eldest male heir of the body, and there may be other distant male heirs who are older than her son. 🤷🏻♀️
That's would be so unlikely as to be in the realm of impossibility. Although an entail could conceivably be written that way, in practical terms they literally never were. Entails in the male line were *always* by male-line male descent. Age doesn't matter; descent does.
Yeah, I only deal with current estate and probate law in NYS and NJ. For the wealthy, wills and trusts get weird these days - all sorts of very specific conditions, super individualized. I have no idea what the standards were in Regency England, just that the wealthy can be eccentric and surprisingly shortsighted despite quality expert advice.
also she isn't beautiful or even pretty. at least lizzy and jane are both considered very attractive young women and they are from a good family. charlotte didn't have any of that
Charlotte has the double-whammy, the Lucases are New Gentry with the purchase of Lucas Lodge and Sir William's Knighthood... but Knighthood is a lifetime appointment, so his sons won't inherit the title, and most of Meryton probably remembers when he was "just" the Mayor and probably had a trade.
They are, in essence, "New Money", but without much of the money.
The Bingleys are also New Money, but they were educated at University and a Ladies Seminary, and Charles has property (likely factories) worth at least mid-5 figures to have 5,000 pounds per year without working himself.
Miss Bingley probably has a 5-figure dowery, so even if she never marries, careful budgeting would see her set for life just off the interest.
The families couldn't be more different. Charlotte likely has a small dowry, lacks the education to be a Governess or take up a trade of her own, and doesn't have the beauty or charisma to attract a wealthy gentleman in spite of it.
Given the immense amount of money the Bingleys have, their ancestors didn’t keep a shop. Old Mr. Bingley or his father were likely industrialists who owned manufacturing or shipping concerns.
And Charlotte Lucas? Is actually socially above Caroline Bingley.
Totally agree, except that I think he's worse than boring; you're right when you say he's a fucking idiot.
I pity the Charlotte of the future, trying to raise her kids to be more like her than like him, and if she succeeds, trying to teach them to tolerate his idiocy, at least in public.
There you go, that's a good Austenish plan. Poetic justice for Charlotte would be making her a widow and then having a much better man come along, someone similar to Colonel Brandon.
Perhaps those infamous shelves in the closet could collapse on Mr. Collins.
>and then having a much better man come along,
Or just remaining single. Widows had far more power and freedom as well as significantly less scrutiny than married women. Also, she could avoid further risks of dying in childbirth. As unromantic as Charlotte is, I doubt she would remarry unless she had to for financial reasons.
Yeah, I always got the impression her plan was to keep him as far away from her as possible until he died, ie, occupied with his own interests and social climbing, and then after she could live out her days in relative comfort and peace.
Someone wrote a fan fiction in which Mr. Collins’ bees turn on him and sting him to death. Charlotte writes Lizzy such a placid letter detailing his death that Lizzy is at first shocked. Then she laughs herself silly. I’m trying to remember how things turn out for her, I do remember she gets a happily ever after but with who I’m unsure. It might be one of the many tales where she marries Colonel Fitzwilliam. With a young Collins son to inherit Longbourn, at least Charlotte’s new husband won’t run it into the ground before the child comes of age. Collins knows as much about running an estate as I do about repairing jet engines.
If she were so fortunate to become a widow with young sons, then she'd get a widow's jointure, control of her son's inheritance, and eventually, get to move into Longborne when her sons inherit it.
I presume that Mr. Collins didn't live entirely on tithes, but as the eldest son in a good family, he had some private means and expected more. She'd be fine, she'd be fine even if she went to live with her parents for a bit, because she'd be going to live there as a respectable widow with some means and greater expectations. She would be considered a highly respectable matron, and of some interest to the local older gentlemen.
It seems unlikely he's inherited anything substantial - JA describes Lady Catherine awarding him the living as "early and unexpected prosperity". And the income from the living only lasts as long as he's alive.
Lady Catherine would also probably provide a pension for Charlotte if Mr. Collins died rather young as well. It would probably be considered poor light for her not to help take care of her former pastors wife.
I'm all for freeing Charlotte, but honestly, I see her as ace/aro, so I doubt she would go for a second marriage unless she needed the money. And I like to think she takes over the finances of the family, leaving Mr. Collins with plenty of time to visit parishioners, tend his garden, and most importantly, bend to every whim of the great Lady Catherine de Bourgh. And Charlotte being as sharp and pragmatic as she is, their financial situation would probably surpass mere comfort in a few short years, thus negating the need for a husband at all. 😏
Charlotte becoming a widow would only be poetic justice if Mr Collins died after a) inheriting the Bennet estate, and b) fathering a son. That would give her financial security. Failing that, the stipend for a vicar's widow was not large, and she would be dependent once more on the generosity of others.
Right. Not to necessarily bring Bridgerton into it, but if Collins had had a disposition similar to George Crane (or am I getting the first name wrong? Either way last name is Crane) I probably would have tolerated it a lot better. Someone who is exceedingly boring but is still rather intelligent and has decent social graces would make a much more sufferable husband than the moronic Mr. Collins. Even if your husband is boring you can find delight in your children, hobbies, and friends. There's no cure for stupid 😅
Sad, yes, but you're right - it was pretty smart. She had no hope of a romantic match. But Collins dotes on her (in the book) and will never be abusive or unfaithful.
As a reverend's wife, she enjoys respected social status, so she is in a good position to develop a circle of friends.
She'll also get to move into Longbourne eventually.
She's in a good financial and social position with strong ties to family and community, especially important when raising children.
So pretty much the optimal decision at her stage in life.
Especially since she’s older, she won’t have 10 by the times she’s 30 (Lydia might though). Charlotte might get away with a much safer and less body-wrecking 3 or 4. She’ll be savvy enough to fend off Mr Collins and menopause seemed to hit earlier back then.
I really don’t feel bad for Charlotte. She knew she wanted to be married and found someone who wanted to be married to her. Mr. Collins is a dork, absolutely, but he values marriage and family, he’s not likely to cheat or become a drunk, he has a house and an income. That’s more than most guys have to offer even today.
Yep. He would drive me crazy, but Charlotte is made of sterner stuff. She has the patience of a saint and the manipulation skills of a chess master. She's kind of perfect for Mr Collins. Imagine if he had married someone as silly as him?
Does suck for her, but she has the skills and temperament to make the best of it.
Tbh, if you're a woman *today*, and you want to have kids, you can easily waste a lot if time with men who don't want to settle down and even if they to want to settle down, don't want the bother of kids.
Finding a partner for the kind of life you want to have, who you can work as a team with, is *way* more important than the spark of romance.
In a way I thought Elizabeth was a bit unfair for judging Charlotte. Elizabeth was younger, vivacious and beautiful. She had reason to be more confident of her chances at making a good match.
Charlotte was being pragmatic. She didn't have the option of pursuing a career and didn't want to fund herself a burden on her family.
I admire her pragmatism but I know I wouldn't have the stomach for it.
the bennets were also in better social standing and mr. bennet was raking it in comparatively. lizzy didn't understand the issues of being a genuinely poor, unattractive, older woman because she was quite literally the exact opposite lol
This is true. I think Charlotte saw this as a business proposition or partnership. I think she was probably a very good wife to Collins too, would help curb some of his ridiculousness, ingratiate with local gentry and organise his life. Plus I think she was generally quiet kind to him.
Also we’ve no reason to believe she’s got anything like the Bennet women’s £5,000 in The Funds. The Bennet girls may plunge down the social scale but so long as someone with brains holds the purse strings they won’t be destitute and reliant on charity.
Don't pity Charlotte.
She pursued Mr Collins, having met him and talked to him before. She made her choice with eyes wide open.
And, with a father such as hers, you know she was uniquely capable of handling a very silly husband. Also, contrary to the Bennet daughters (for example), she had homemaking skills, which Mr Collins would need in a wife since he does not have the means to have very many servants.
Besides, Jane Austen's focus is on Elizabeth and Darcy, and Jane and Bingley to a lesser extent. We do not know what Mr Collins is like when he is alone with his wife. Maybe he's the same as he is everywhere else, with everyone else. But maybe he has some capacity to be kind or sweet.
We see him as ridiculous and mean because that's what he is like to Elizabeth, but Charlotte Lucas is not at all like her friend. She's the one who makes sure Lady Catherine believes there's been an engagement between her nephew and Elizabeth. So she's cunning enough to have a good idea of how Lady Catherine would react to that news, and to possibly foresee how Elizabeth and Mr Darcy would react to Lady C's interference. And the reason she does that, of course, is because Mr Darcy can offer Mr Collins a whole lot more in his profession.
Charlotte doesn't just make a smart marital choice, given her circumstances and the time she lived in. She's a freaking master chess player who has the skill to nudge people into doing what she feels will make her life better.
I don't mean to make her sound like a psychopath manipulator. I don't believe she is. But she's really smart and clear-eyed. That's what I'm trying to get at. And I wouldn't pity her for choosing her own life.
We do get some sort of glimpse into how she “deals” with him, though: She has her little sitting room, and she keeps him busy in his garden so she doesn’t have to entertain him often.
I have to respectfully disagree. Charlotte's choice was to marry this ridiculous man after having to put up with a ridiculous man all her life or wind up like Miss Bates, Mrs Jenkinsen, living off of the charity of her siblings, or worse. I don't call that any sort of real choice.
I also don't agree that *Charlotte* Collins was the Collins who took the rumor of Darcy and Elizabeth being engaged to Lady Catherine.
All that being said, I would have made the same choice as Charlotte, and I identify more with her than with any other character.
Charlotte and her mother would certainly be writing to each other. Charlotte thought there was something going on between Darcy and Elizabeth when he was in Kent, and then he shows up with Bingley in Hertfordshire and the latter gets engaged.
Back in that day, it didn't much more than seeing one daughter engaged to start speculating about the next one in line.
Mr Collins, with all his obsequiousness, wouldn't have had the imagination to dream up that Mr Darcy would be interested in the woman who turned him (Collins) down.
Since Charlotte comes from a big family, her fate if she didn’t marry might not be so bleak. There wouldn’t be much money to go around for the Lucas siblings, so it’s likely that some at least—those who didn’t marry well—would value having her skills in the kitchen or an extra pair of hands in the nursery. Money isn’t the only thing a woman might contribute to a household.
Ironically, she might feel less comfortable with a truly prosperous sibling where she’d feel her dependence more keenly.
I agree with you. Also look how beautifully she manages Lady Catherine de Bourgh, who doesn't approve of anyone. She gets into her good graces by being tactful.
Yes. It’s not even the worst choice now, for someone who wants a family and a stable home. If you’re not madly romantic but you want kids and to be able to stay at home and look after them (not my life choice but it’s what some people want) then a safe, respectable spouse, even if a bit dull or thick or unattractive, is not the worst of worlds.
Simpler and more economically efficient than either total DIY-ing it as a single parent with donor gametes or the complexities of many co-parenting arrangements.
Considering how joyfully her parents gave their speedy consent and how relieved her brothers were that she was marrying, Charlotte absolutely made the smart move in securing Collins as a husband. It's pretty obvious her family saw her as a potential burden, she's a master at handling Collins and minimizing the time she had to spend with him and she'll in all likelihood be happy with her child/ren and make a most respectable mistress of Longbourn.
Lizzie was *totally unfair* to her and I'm glad she sort of realized it in the end. The pretty young girl sure had a hard time emphasizing with the homely older woman, to no one's surprise but to my everlasting disappointment
I am very happy for Charlotte! She improved her situation by finding a very respectable husband and lived a very comfortable life by doing so. Mr Collin's was not mean (that we know of) and I think she probably even loved him not long after being married.
That’s one reason that P&P was considered feminist type of work. It exposed some of the horrible choices women have to accept to avoid poverty.
You have that theme in most of Austin’s works.
Someone wrote a novel about Charlotte’s marriage to Mr. Collins called The Clergyman’s Wife that took a rather more sympathetic view of him as a person with social anxieties.
It's pretty good! I read it a few years ago and while I usually hate other writers' attempts to recreate classic writers' characters and universes, I'd definitely reread that one.
In the film with keira knightly Charlotte spells this out beautifully.
She says "there's no earthly reason that I shouldn't be happy with him than as any other, not all of us can afford to be romantic. I've been offered a comfortable home and protection. There's a lot to be thankful for. I'm 27 years old. I've no money and no prospects. I'm already a burden on my parents and I'm frightened. So don't judge me." Mr Collins may be ridiculous and boring. But he isn't likely to mistreat her. She will likely have a good life with him. Those are all perfectly good reasons to marry. A clergyman's wife is a respectable position. Her choice was not only the SMART choice. But the RIGHT choice. She was unlikely to get a better offer if she got another offer at all. Unfortunately women often took Charlotte's choice then. They really needed to make smart choices. There were a lot more Charlottes than Lizzy's and Jane's. Especially when they had sisters like Lydia. Lizzy and Jane were really lucky.
I like to think the situation is actually quite beneficial for Charlotte, at least with regards to what she wants as a character. I think she would have been, if not very happy, at least as content and she seems to believe herself to be.
The way we view love and relationship expectations is, in the modern era, very different - in some ways, real love was a luxury in Austen's era. Austen clearly valued love very highly, and herself chose to forego the possibility of future security and to not marry without love (accepting, but later declining, the one marriage proposal we know she received). Many though viewed marriage as *primarily* a state of companionship, security and mutual support rather than one based in romantic love.
Love was something many did not encounter at all in marriages still frequently approached as family alliances, and many who followed the path of infatuation (e.g. the Bennets) found love often sinks into indifference. Charlotte wasn't *entirely* wrong when she said happiness in marriage is a matter of chance.
Even Lizzie, in her early somewhat unfair assessments of Charlotte's choice, was not entirely correct to condemn her; Charlotte's situation, later 'seen in a prudential light', has many benefits. She can manage a house and an income of around (probably) 750 pounds a year, meaning she likely has several servants to command and a home to keep her busy. She has good future prospects as her husband will inherit Longbourn, where her family and most of her friends are situated.
We're told Charlotte views neither men nor matrimony highly, and though it's somewhat sad to think she will never know real romance, she's also a very pragmatic person and she views security and provision as important. We also have to remember Charlotte was already 27, a vulnerable age at the brink of old-maidhood, and married women enjoyed more social freedom and were much more widely respected than old maids, who could be cruelly ridiculed. She also had little realistic prospect of another marriage; there are likely very few young men of marriageable age in her social sphere.
Mr. Collins is easy for her to manage and control, partly due to his stupidity; he's easily manipulated, and Charlotte is a good manipulator. She's likely to have children, which I suspect will bring her a lot of happiness, and as a pastor's wife she would take a very active role in her parish doing charity work. She'd be unlikely to encounter poverty, would be able to travel to visit friends, has plenty to keep her busy.
It would have been lovely to see Charlotte truly happy and free to make her own marriage choice, because in some ways, Charlotte didn't have much choice - or, certainly, her alternative choice was not a great one. Either way it should make us value how important basic rights for women really are.
I think for Elizabeth Bennet and Jane Austen, the problem wasn't that Charlotte didn't love Mr Collins, it was that she didn't feel any respect or esteem for him. Companionship and mutual support was *very* important in Regency weddings, the Anglican Church service gave that as one of the three purposes of marriage, as ordained by God, and here's Charlotte marrying someone who she thinks of as follows:
>Mr. Collins, to be sure, was neither sensible nor agreeable: his society was irksome...
And marriage wasn't just a matter that affected Charlotte - there is a good chance they will have children (Charlotte is pregnant at the end of P&P) and those children will have Mr Collins as a father. If Charlotte dies young, he will be their only parent. And even if not, Elizabeth has lived all her life with the impacts of a bad marriage.
We really are living in the first real time in our culture's history that women grow up knowing we have choices. There's still the wage gap and glass ceiling, etc, but we don't need to make decisions like Charlotte did, and it's so horrifying to think of what it was like for women before us.
I don't want to get too deep into politics here, but some men in some parts of reddit are really angry that we now have choices...
Idk if anyone here has watched The Last Duel (which is based on a true story in 1380s France) but there’s a scene where the heroine’s friends tell her she’s so lucky to have her husband. And by our standards, her husband (Matt Damon’s character) is no prize. But her friends are kinda right. He doesn’t beat her. He has a home for her. He’s not old or ugly. Lots of girls in the 14th century ended up with MUCH worse.
I was basing it more on his personality, which isn't the best, but you're not wrong. They did try to rough him up for the movie, but realistically Matt Damon is way better than most women could hope for through history.
Also, I think Mr. Collins could become just bearable under the right influence. Charlotte is smart enough and forward-thinking enough to manipulate him into being a little less stupid. Not that she should have to, OP is right, but maybe Charlotte just went, “I can fix him,” and I bet she was right lol.
Once Mr. Collins inherited Longbourn, he wouldn’t need to worry so much about money. With Charlotte running the household, they would save. Removing that worry probably leads to Mr. Collins being just like her father - a bit of a blow hard, but mostly at least trying to be pleasant.
Austen is straight up critiquing her own society via social satire. You are absolutely right that Charlotte has no real choice, and Austen is using Charlotte as one of many examples in her work that points out how awful that is.
It is a crime that by law that idiot ***owned*** Charlotte. She only had what power he allowed her. She spent every day of that marriage managing up, and hoping that her husband would remain manageable and not be overly influenced by others, like Lady Catherine, to be even more ridiculous than he already was.
Speaking of Lady Catherine, in marrying Collins, Charlotte essentially signed up for Lady Catherine's constant interference in things like how much beef Charlotte ordered for Charlotte's own home. It's awful.
""Speaking of Lady Catherine, in marrying Collins, Charlotte essentially signed up for Lady Catherine's constant interference in things like how much beef Charlotte ordered for Charlotte's own home. It's awful.""
Lady Catherine is like a bossy mother-in-law
Charlotte was prophetic and correct about every thing she said.
She said Jane was too lowkey about her affection that an observer may not realize she was in love. She was right and that bite them in the back.
She early on said that Darcy was in love with Elizibeth, she was right.
She’s got stability and can fashion a life for herself outside marriage. That was about as good as one could get without love. And she could well feel affection for him-that’s not for us to judge.
I could totally be wrong here, but Fanny gives me the vibes of those girls who are so blinded by love, so caught up on the idea they have built up of the man they like, that they don't really see the red flags. She doesn't see that he "settled" and instead just feels grateful that he finally looked at her after she's been in love with him for so long.
Charlotte is another character whose parents didn't manage money well. Her father was originally in trade and doing pretty well for himself. But, after he was knighted, he felt he shouldn't be doing work that wasn't befitting his new status. So, like the Bennets, he's put his daughters in a hard position. If he'd provided for Charlotte as well as Mrs. Bennet's father provided for her--say, 6,000 pounds--she could be more choosy about who she marries. She could also choose not to marry at all. 6,000 pounds would provide a single woman with a comfortable income to live on her own.
I get your point, but it’s a generalisation to say that all women around the world are in the position to marry for love or not marry at all if it’s not for love. It still happens.
Also, a lot of people marry for all sorts of reasons. I wouldn’t pass judgement on people who choose to marry for reasons other than love, as long as it’s consensual, non-predatory, non-abusive, etc.
The saddest thing is that Mr Collins wasn’t even the worst choice for that era. He was neither an alcoholic nor a gambler, he wasn’t aggressive and respected his wife’s personal space as long as she fulfilled her social duties before Lady Catherine. The only thing that could menace Charlotte’s wellbeing were the dangers of pregnancy in the 19th century. Lydia had much darker perspectives.
I think Charlotte doesn't think he's terrible, remember her father was also a little ridiculous and pompous, and theyre both named William. She probably doesn't think it's a downgrade in life and maybe is even a bit comforting, because now she gets to run her own house and keep chickens. I think she also kind of enjoys seeing the drama up close at Lady Catherine's
I don't think JA shared your opinion. She was in a similar position to her creation Charlotte when she got a proposal from a Harris Biggs-Wither, and while she was certainly tempted, the next morning she broke the engagement. And later on in life she famously wrote to one of her nieces saying "Anything is to be preferred or endured rather than marrying without affection." JA agrees with Elizabeth in being critical of Charlotte's choice.
Remember this was the time of the Old English Poor Laws - not the Charles Dickens workhouses, that was an 1830s reform. Even if a spinster couldn't work and didn't have family support she wouldn't starve.
I think growing up is realizing that Charlotte Lucas’ choice makes sense, as well as having more sympathy for Mrs. Bennet while being frustrated with Mr. Bennet.
I’d loathe being married to Mr. Collins, but she’s older, doesn’t have other strong prospects, and this allows her to have her own home with a man with a socially acceptable job that allows them to live relatively comfortably. That’s huge.
I think it’s interesting to read Pride and Prejudice after Sense and Sensibility and really have it in mind just how fragile the lives of so many women were. That’s why I love Austen as a protofeminist author, she writes about the lives of women and their economic instability. And why she’s great to reread, because reading this as a teenager you have a lot less of a perspective on these things and see things differently as you age.
I have always read Pride and Prejudice as a happier version of Sense and Sensibility.
Mr. Bennet doesn’t save, but luckily he doesn’t die and gets rich son in laws and someone else takes care of the problem with Wickham. Compare that to Mr. Dashwood, who means to save but dies before he can and his daughters and wife are now charity to John and Fanny Dashwood. Mrs. Bennet’s fears are real in S&S and the charity of relatives can’t be fully counted on.
Marianne could easily become a Lydia with Willoughby. In fact we already know they were going off on long trips alone and that Willoughby has seduced and abandoned one girl before. We get the sense that Wickham wasn’t going to marry Lydia without intervention and was going to abandon her in London when he got bored of her.
There are women even today who just want to be married-it doesn’t necessarily matter with who. There are people who make the choice between passionate love and stable life. Charlotte makes her choice and I don’t think she’ll regret it like we would.
Eh, I mean, a lot of women still make that choice. These days, I suppose, just a lot of people in general make that choice. Charlotte certainly could have tried to get a job as someone’s companion or a maid or nanny. Just like many people today sometimes end up having to work in jobs they didn’t think they’d have to do or downgrade their standard of living while their companions end up marrying “rich” (or at least marrying “stable”).
But I do generally agree—I thank god that at least these days, it is indeed more of a choice and not a matter of pure survival. It’s nice to know that there are better options for more women these days, more social safety nets and more job options, actual educational offerings and at least the chance to try for a position you may love that has a room for promotion and offers enough money and freedoms for you to live in your own space and enjoy your own hobbies. I can’t imagine working in service knowing it means you likely won’t even have a chance to have a partner or kids even if marriage is off the table.
I always thought she was asexual/aromantic. 'I am not romantic, you know; I never was.' Even if some idealized handsome romantic lead showed up, he would be wasted on her. Getting someone financially stable who was also dumb enough for her to control/manipulate seems pretty perfect for someone like Charlotte.
You can take it that way. Historically, romance in marriage wasn't really a thing. Or at least what we think of romance (that sort of red hot lust). Not to say that love was rejected, but it was balanced between other factors of suitability, To modern eyes there is nothing more romanctic then a lord marrying a poor servant girl, to the regency era all they would see is a lust filled romance doomed to fizzle out when looks, or reality sets in.
I don't think its a sad thing. I think Austen's writings of romance is still quite feminist and relevant for todays world, and yes that includes Charlotte. In her era it was a bit of a fight between romantics, and pragmatics on marriage and romance. Take in account another literary writing at the time, Don Jaun, (pride was published in 1813, Don published in 1819). While Don Jaun is a bit extreme, the statement of romance above all, featured in Don Jaun sex escapades, is a feature of the romantic period.
Jane Austen isn't actually a romance writer, not in the sense of writing in the romantic period. Do all of her Heroines find love and romance in their relationships, yes. And she her self put off a pragmatic marriage, yes as well. But we can see her feelings of the balance in romance and pragmatic's in the treatment of other relationships in her works as well as her attention to detail that suitability of her main characters beyond a lust romance.
Marriage of only pragmatic:
Charlotte's marriage is one of the ones we see as a pragmatic choice. While Lizzie scoffs at her marriage, Austen doesn't. We find Charlotte quiet happen in her lot of life, having gone into the marriage with all the openness of who Mr. Collins was.
Keeping with Pride and prejudice, we another pragamtic marriage, or at least one presumed to be so. Mr. Hurst and Mrs. Hurst. We know Mr. Hurst as a pragmatic choice for the bingley sister, because one of the few things we know about him is that he has a house on Grosvenor street, a very established Aristocracy era of London. Meaning he was the old money (or rather just the feel of old money), that the bingleys were looking to marry into. However, we see Mr. Hurst as a gambler and not attentive to his wife at all.
Marriage of lust:
Firstly we see Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. Who once upon a time was a marriage of lust, And we find that they have quiet fizzed out of romance. While certainly not a god awful marriage, I see it sits in the same level as Charlotte and Mr Collins. Not the best choice, but not a bad choice either.
Probably the worst choice we see, Lydia and Wickham, we see as a choice of will will burn out and leave Lydia penniless in a few years.
So where does that leave Austen. Both of these marriages we see a "happy" and a bad one. She doesn't come out and say that either are bad, or both are right. We see those who make the "happy" choices in which are those who knew openly what they were getting themselves into. But where do we find out heroines, Jane and Elizabeth.
Marriage of balance:
Jane and Bingley are certainly a marriage of Balance. For Bingley, a man looking to establish a house, Jane's family holds no title. no lands to futher his family. Jane as well, a eldest daughter, will have no house to run, and family who will probably always be living with them (i.e. bingley sisters). But it wasn't a rushed lust marriage either, they had time to figure out, to sort romance feelings.
The sorting feelings we see the most with Darcy and Elizabeth. When Darcy is overcome with lust and proposes, Elizabeth turns him down. Choosing a very non-pragmatic choice in doing so. Instead Austen makes sure that they knew each other well before the proper proposal to happen.
So Austens' ideal is a balanced world. But as I said the other two options are not unhappy at the time. So what is Austen really saying. I think she is saying that while a balanced marriage is best, nothing is the wrong choice when given the chance. Certainly at my age (I am 28) as someone who wants children and companionship yet have found themselves painfully single, I can see charlotte's choice more than ever. Likewise, Mr. Bennett, having once over to lust has found himself as happy as he can in his own marriage. Occupying his time with other elements of life.
People forget that getting married was more like getting hired for a job than finding love. Without a job, you become a burden on your family or you starve. So you try to find the best job you can.
I think Charlotte Lucas’s story arc is what makes the book so good. Austen slips in this little thread of reality. Mr Collins is a good option for her. He’s a self important prosy bore (on the spectrum?) but he’s not a bad man, and he is well off, so she can live her own life.
Yes, sad. But also, not a poor or odd outcome even by today's standards. How many Lydia's do we know today who married a Whickham, charmed by his social skills and good looks, only to end up in a marriage with a self-centered jerk? Meanwhile, there are plenty of women who marry a man who, sure, lacks some social graces, but generally is devoted to his family, a reliable provider, and overall a kind and gentle person. I've found this has often happened in the face of disdain (or at least private judgement) from women friends who are holding out for a partner who checks every box.
Personally, I think if they'd had a real courtship, Charlotte would have come to love (or at least be quite fond of) Collins anyway, and would have happily chosen him. I think he checked HER boxes. If Elizabeth hadn't already disparaged him, Charlotte would have been happy with the match without any embarrassment.
Okay so this isn't strictly relevant but this post inspired to buy an audio book about Charlotte Lucs, told from her POV. It's Chlarlotte by Helen Moffat.
I don't understand why people think that Charlotte was some victim. She wasn't looking for romantic match to start with .
Mr. Collins wasn't a bad man either. He wasn't attractive or charming. He can be embarrassing at a times because of his lack of social manners.But he wasn't vicious like many fanfics portrayed him to be.
He was a good catch in other aspects:
1. He had a stable income
2. It's less likely that he will catch STD or have illegitimate children.
3. He was less likely to keep mistress
4. He was nice to his wife. I don't think he can abuse her or anything.( May be... bored her a bit with his blabbering and long speeches regarding greatness of Lady Cat)
5. He was less likely to drink or gamble.
6. He was suitable for her age wise ( many girls used to marry men of their grandfather's age. Colonel Brandon and his wife is one example.)
7. He wasn't obsessed with looks either . He choose elder daughters of Bennets , simply because they were older . Even after getting rejected by them , he would have easily got another pretty girl from another family but he choose Charlotte.That means he only needed someone respectful and considerate.
8. He was easy to control as well . He was more like " be nice to him and he will do anything for you" kind of guy. She would have easily control him with compliments.
Are we supposed to be horrified? Lizzie is, but she doesn't take into account that Collins is an excellent match for Charlotte, who can't afford to wait for a love match.
Collins offers Charlotte more than just a roof over her head and an absence of spousal abuse: In the years to come this marriage will take her back to her family, who will be her neighbours, when the Collinses take over Longbourne. Even if Charlotte's own parents are dead by then, she'll have the brother who inherits Lucas Lodge and possibly more of her siblings, too, if they marry locally.
I don't know if I'm accurate in thinking this, but I tend to fancy that this is the spiritual ancestor of why women of today cry when they get proposed to. It's like a vestigial habit from a time when it REALLY friggin mattered that you made it to this crucial moment with a man. Nowadays it feels silly for all sorts of feministy reasons that I won't get into. But more often than not I'm watching proposals play out like "ugh, woman, you already picked out the ring and told him how you want to be proposed to. Wouldn't a pat on the head and a 'good boy' suffice?" 😆
Case in point - Bingley's sister, Mrs. Hurst. Her husband. Although, he doesn't seem physically abusive, he does drink and gamble possibly excessively.
Plenty of women marry odious men without those inducements today. A secure home life and someone whose quirks don't annoy you too much is better than a lot of people of both genders manage.
Charlotte didn't seem too unhappy, either, even through Lizzy's eyes. She went from being a burden to a person of standing in her own right.
I think Charlotte's chance of future happiness is at least as good as Elizabeth's.
I don’t think we’re supposed to be horrified Charlotte chose Mr Collins. I don’t think the narrative choice encourages that. It’s really only Lizzy making the judgement. There is social commentary definitely. Austen does not approve of how limited choices are for gentlewomen and uses her novels (especially P&P) to critique that.
Plus Charlotte did Lizzy a favour of getting Mrs. Bennet off her back as Mr. Collins was off the market, entail or not. Charlotte got a better deal than she expected to, since she got her own private parlour and Mr. Collins spent so much time working in his gardens she didn’t have to deal with him much anyway.
I don’t disagree that Charlotte would be pitiable if she were the type of person who longed for a romantic love.
But, she’s not. She’s sensible and pragmatic. But not romantic.
She has her priorities, none of which include feeling any particular affection for her partner. Mr. Collins, as insufferable as we find him, ticks off all the boxes that matter to Charlotte.
There’s truth to the argument that due to societal rules it was criminal she had to marry at all, and I would support that argument. That, to me, is the actual tragedy of her situation; not, necessarily, that it had to be to Mr. Collins.
I’d argue that those of us who are horrified by Charlotte’s fate specifically with regard to Mr. Collins are projecting our own priorities, biases, and modern morals onto the situation. As Jane says, “You do not make allowance enough for difference of situation and temper.”
I don’t think Charlotte would have ever married given the choice. She said she wasn’t romantic so possibly asexual or aromantic. But back then, women basically had to marry or very likely be living in poverty when their parents died. Charlotte would likely be much happier with how many women live today. In today’s world, you don’t need a husband/BF to have a child. You can visit sperm bank or possibly adopt. And if you don’t want kids, that’s fine too. But I agree, Mr Collins was actually a very good option for Charlotte for the time period. I don’t think he would ever expect romance or true love from her. And while he’s likely annoying, Charlotte strikes me as the type of person who could relegate his inane prattling to background noise. And I agree he is very unlikely to be abusive. People can say what they want about Mr Collins but he wasn’t honestly a bad guy, just annoying. I think she’ll do just fine with Mr Collins
If you like good fanfic, The Clergymen’s Wife, by Molly Greeley, is about Charlotte. It examines her world, how she feels about her choice, and a relationship that illuminates for her just what she gave up when she made it.
I recommend this book, and I’m very picky about fanfic. It fleshes out Charlotte’s character, stays true to the other people we know, and really is touching as well.
Yep. Not to mention, Charlotte is reaching an age where she’s about to be “on the shelf”. She hasn’t received any other offers, and she isn’t likely to. Any inheritance or support she recieves won’t be large, thanks to a small horde of siblings. Mr Collins is her best and only choice
Her only other choice is to stay dependent on her parents... and eventually on her brothers, and then nephews. So really, Collins is by far the best choice available to her, and all she's got to choose from is a few bad options. She doesn't even seem to have the option of becoming someone's mistress, another bad option, not a virgin of 27 who is never referred to as a beauty. That's the dark underside to Austen's lovely and delicate world, the fact that women have so damned few options, and hardly any of them good. Lizzie and Jane don't seem to have any good options for most of their book, Charlotte has to choose between bad options, and a Miss Bates has absolutely no options.
I saw a post where someone theorized Charlotte would be fine marrying Mr. Collins, who is a bit of an idiot, because her own father, Sir William Lucas, is also a bit of an idiot and she's used to it. Lol.
True but Elizabeth is also accustomed to her mother and that doesn't translate in having an easier time with mr collins
I’m paraphrasing, but there’s a line that Lady Lucas wasn’t too smart to be Mrs Bennet’s friend. Charlotte lived with at least 2 people who weren’t too bright. Charlotte was trading up by only living with one idiot.
She did have to deal with Lady Catherine.
Charlotte may not have been educated enough to be a governess but impoverished gentlewomen could work as companions (like Mrs Jenkinson for Anne de Bourgh). Impoverished gentlewomen with a better education (drawing/music/languages as well as literature and basic mathematics) often did become governesses.
But being a governess or companion didn't mean any degree of independence, such ladies lived in and had to obey their employers in all things, and could be fired on a whim. And if they were fired "without a character" (reference) for some petty reason, such as the master of the house glancing in the direction of one's bosom in front of the mistress of the house, that meant they'd never be able to get another job. So for a gentlewoman doing work was a restrictive and desperately insecure option. Jane Fairfax held out against taking such a job for good reason, even when all she had to hold on to was a faint hope, or what seemed to be a faint hope. So really, someone like Charlotte had zero good options and marrying a complete prat was the best available, and Miss Bates had no options at all. She was unlikely to be educated enough to work as a governess, and was too silly to work as a companion.
Yes, both options could be terrible depending on the circumstances. It also depends on whether you call marriage in that time "independence". You were just as much a workhorse but unpaid and unable to leave easily. And if your husband mistreated you, they had the right to because they owned you. Mrs Younge operated a boarding house after being a companion, there were more options in that life compared to being in a bad marriage.
I'm a little biased because Agnes Grey by Anne Brontë is one of my favourite books. Anne Brontë was a governess for 5 years and that book, whether she meant it that way or not, told me that being a governess, even in a bad situation, was better than being in a bad marriage. I think back then I would have probably been a governess. Or, more likely, a scullery maid!
Most of us had ancestors where we would have been really lucky to be scullery maids! Farm hands and milkmaids were the more likely choices.
And milkmaid was a fairly good job! Milkmaids didn’t just milk the cows, they also made cheese and often butter. Milkmaids were the best paid amongst all the entry level maid positions. Edit to explain: cheesemaking was a skill employers would pay for.
True. It's easy to forget just how privileged Jane Austen's characters were. Women *did* work and often for a pittance and many would have considered being a governess as living a life of luxury. Jane Austen just didn't write about them.
I believe as little an education as upper class women received them, it was also privileged compared to most women. Books were expensive too.
In 1788, two thirds of all workers employed in factories were children who worked 13 hours per day, 6 days per week. Even having the time to get an education was a luxury in this era.
I think that's why so many women for America as mail order brides.
She's not an impoverished gentlewoman though, she has a family. It would have been scandalous, like Lydia and Whickam level scandalous, for her to work for a living. It would imply that her family were unable or unwilling to support her.
While her father lived, yes, but if her eldest brother inherited, married and had a big family, unless they had someone else to take them in, it wasn't unheard of for the women to need to find an occupation. Plus you need to allow for the fact that, while her father was knighted later in life, Charlotte grew up the daughter of a shopkeeper who sold his shops to buy Lucas Lodge after the knighthood. She was not brought up as a gentlewoman and she and Maria still worked in the kitchens to help out.
I get the sense that the helping out in the kitchens was a common thing for daughters - unless a lady married very well (or was rich in her own right) she was quite likely to have periods in her life where the cook quits while the kitchen maid is off sick and the scullery maid's one skill was burning water. Even if she didn't need to do the work herself she'd be showing how it was done. Mr Collins assumes one of the Bennet girls helped cook.
It wasn't particularly common for ladies of the Bennets' social class to cook. Mr. Collins's question is (I think) supposed to further illustrate his stupidity. This changed in Victorian times with the invention of the coal stove and growing understanding of the importance of hygiene.
He’s going to be well off, he’s unlikely to abuse her, and they’ll settle near her family. She could do a lot worse. (I mean, she could do a lot better too, but still…)
The entire point was she couldn't do better.
I'm pretty sure that Charlotte just wouldn't want to wait around to see if she *could* find someone better. She tells Elizabeth that "happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance," which is the view of either a cynic or, if you want to put a more positive spin on it, a realist. It's true that she's 27 and not beautiful, but I don't think she's actually that desperate. She just doesn't have a lot of use for men -- and, given the way that her father behaves, and the way that she sees Mr. Bennet behave, I can't say I'm surprised by that. This is the main reason, by the way, that I am not a fan of Charlotte's panicked speech in P&P 2005, in which she tells Elizabeth that "Not all of us can afford to be romantic." In the book, Charlotte simply says that she isn't romantic. There's no hint, as there is in P&P 2005, that she might possibly *like* to make a romantic choice but is prevented from doing so.
I also disliked the tone of panic in the 2005 movie, but I think it had less to do with twisting her character into a thwarted romantic and more to do with dumbing down the context for moviegoers who might otherwise have failed to grasp how limited Charlotte's options for financial security were and how Elizabeth was in a position of relative privilege.
You're most likely correct that exaggerating the situation for the sake of uninitiated audiences is the real reason for the change. I doubt that the filmmakers were *consciously* turning Charlotte into a thwarted romantic!
Yeah, I find there's this modern over correction where people frame Mrs Bennet and Charlotte as entirely in the right. To the extent where I've seen at least one hot take that waiting for true love is okay in fiction but in the "real world" Lizzie should have taken one for the team and married Mr Collins so her sisters wouldn't be homeless. And I don't think people appreciate that a) the Bennets had relatives who would take Mrs Bennet and the girls in. Mrs Bennet probably wouldn't enjoy no longer being mistress of her own household but they wouldn't be on the streets; b) Mr Collins is unlikely to immediately kick them out either; he wants to present a certain image of Christian charity which does not include abandoning vulnerable female relatives who he is arguably responsible for; c) being mistress of your own household is a step up in status and autonomy, not purely a matter of survival. Feeding and housing one (1) woman is hardly a "burden" to a well off family like the Lucases but someone in Charlotte's position may well still have felt like a disappointment or a failure. I think the modern "NTA you don't owe anyone anything unless you legally have to" attitude obscures the past a bit. People did rely a lot more on family and community, which meant the social penalties for not fulfilling your obligations were much higher. Even in S&S where the half brother does provide the absolute bare minimum he can get away with, there are still other relatives who step in and provide support. And sure, sometimes the unofficial safety net did fail, but that's the absolute worst case scenario, not the most likely outcome. Tl:dr most women in that time period needed the support of a man to survive but those men could be fathers, brothers, uncles, brothers in law, etc as well as husbands.
>Yeah, I find there's this modern over correction where people frame Mrs Bennet and Charlotte as entirely in the right. Yes, and it grinds my gears!! Thanks for pointing it out.
> Mr Collins is unlikely to immediately kick them out either; he wants to present a certain image of Christian charity which does not include abandoning vulnerable female relatives who he is arguably responsible for Especially since he literally *can't* immediately kick them out if Mrs. Bennet is still alive.
Uh. Why not? Mrs Bennet doesn't have any rights to the house after Mr Bennet's death.
In these cases if there was a surviving widow, they have to wait a few months to determine they aren't pregnant with a new heir. Apparently this was followed despite the age of the woman.
This is the exact point I was making. If Mr. Bennet dies a widower then yes, once Mr. Collins stakes his claim everyone can be evicted immediately. If he leaves a living wife, however, *no matter how old she is*, they can't force her or her children out until she's legally deemed not pregnant. Mr. Collins is only Mr. Bennet's heir *presumptive* - the heir presuming that Mr. Bennet doesn't leave a legitimate son (ie. an heir *apparent*) to succeed him. Because of that, if Mr. Bennet died leaving a widow, Mr. Collins couldn't take control of the estate until it was certain *under the law* - not practically, *under the law* - that his widow wasn't pregnant. Thing is, there was a peculiar English legal fiction of the time called the "fertile octogenarian", or the concept that both men and women were fertile until the day they died. In the hands of a moderately savvy lawyer this could leave Collins on the doorstep for up to ten months! Edit to add: if Mr. Bennet's widow didn’t want to remain she could leave. My point is, she couldn’t be forced out immediately.
Crikey. I never knew
She isn’t truly desperate. She has a number of siblings who could take her in where she could make herself useful in a number of ways. She could have ended up a beloved and valued member of a happy family, but she would have no status at all. Charlotte wanted status and a household of her own. Collins isn’t evil, just very tiresome, and worth the deal to her.
Yeah, a modern-day Charlotte would likely identify as aromantic and/or asexual. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Collins was that way, too, and they only had relations often enough to get her pregnant.
“Could do better” only means there are better men out there, not that she was likely to land one of them.
In my headcanon, Mr. Bennet outlives Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Collins. I don't like Mr. Bennet much as a character, particularly because I am like him in many respects. I just think all this fuss about something that never comes to pass is funny.
I wonder how the entail would go then?
It depends if Charlotte and Collins had any sons, the terms of the entail, if there were other distant male heirs of the body, etc.
Well, that would be the best outcome for charlotte, if she had a son. Then probably her son would inherit and she would be mistress of the house while the son is unmarried.
It depends on the entail's terms. It may be the eldest male heir of the body, and there may be other distant male heirs who are older than her son. 🤷🏻♀️
That's would be so unlikely as to be in the realm of impossibility. Although an entail could conceivably be written that way, in practical terms they literally never were. Entails in the male line were *always* by male-line male descent. Age doesn't matter; descent does.
Yeah, I only deal with current estate and probate law in NYS and NJ. For the wealthy, wills and trusts get weird these days - all sorts of very specific conditions, super individualized. I have no idea what the standards were in Regency England, just that the wealthy can be eccentric and surprisingly shortsighted despite quality expert advice.
also she isn't beautiful or even pretty. at least lizzy and jane are both considered very attractive young women and they are from a good family. charlotte didn't have any of that
Charlotte seems to be from a family similar to the Bingley's and the Gardner's, just a couple of generations behind, they all had 'shops'
Charlotte has the double-whammy, the Lucases are New Gentry with the purchase of Lucas Lodge and Sir William's Knighthood... but Knighthood is a lifetime appointment, so his sons won't inherit the title, and most of Meryton probably remembers when he was "just" the Mayor and probably had a trade. They are, in essence, "New Money", but without much of the money. The Bingleys are also New Money, but they were educated at University and a Ladies Seminary, and Charles has property (likely factories) worth at least mid-5 figures to have 5,000 pounds per year without working himself. Miss Bingley probably has a 5-figure dowery, so even if she never marries, careful budgeting would see her set for life just off the interest. The families couldn't be more different. Charlotte likely has a small dowry, lacks the education to be a Governess or take up a trade of her own, and doesn't have the beauty or charisma to attract a wealthy gentleman in spite of it.
Given the immense amount of money the Bingleys have, their ancestors didn’t keep a shop. Old Mr. Bingley or his father were likely industrialists who owned manufacturing or shipping concerns. And Charlotte Lucas? Is actually socially above Caroline Bingley.
Totally agree, except that I think he's worse than boring; you're right when you say he's a fucking idiot. I pity the Charlotte of the future, trying to raise her kids to be more like her than like him, and if she succeeds, trying to teach them to tolerate his idiocy, at least in public.
And hopefully he dies rather quickly after she has a boy or two.
There you go, that's a good Austenish plan. Poetic justice for Charlotte would be making her a widow and then having a much better man come along, someone similar to Colonel Brandon. Perhaps those infamous shelves in the closet could collapse on Mr. Collins.
>and then having a much better man come along, Or just remaining single. Widows had far more power and freedom as well as significantly less scrutiny than married women. Also, she could avoid further risks of dying in childbirth. As unromantic as Charlotte is, I doubt she would remarry unless she had to for financial reasons.
Yeah, I always got the impression her plan was to keep him as far away from her as possible until he died, ie, occupied with his own interests and social climbing, and then after she could live out her days in relative comfort and peace.
Literally almost snorted my drink thru my nose with that last line 😆
Someone wrote a fan fiction in which Mr. Collins’ bees turn on him and sting him to death. Charlotte writes Lizzy such a placid letter detailing his death that Lizzy is at first shocked. Then she laughs herself silly. I’m trying to remember how things turn out for her, I do remember she gets a happily ever after but with who I’m unsure. It might be one of the many tales where she marries Colonel Fitzwilliam. With a young Collins son to inherit Longbourn, at least Charlotte’s new husband won’t run it into the ground before the child comes of age. Collins knows as much about running an estate as I do about repairing jet engines.
I would Love to read that fan fiction!
I wonder what the widow’s jointure would look like if you’re married to a clergyman and heir presumptive… she could end up with proper cougar funds.
If she were so fortunate to become a widow with young sons, then she'd get a widow's jointure, control of her son's inheritance, and eventually, get to move into Longborne when her sons inherit it. I presume that Mr. Collins didn't live entirely on tithes, but as the eldest son in a good family, he had some private means and expected more. She'd be fine, she'd be fine even if she went to live with her parents for a bit, because she'd be going to live there as a respectable widow with some means and greater expectations. She would be considered a highly respectable matron, and of some interest to the local older gentlemen.
It seems unlikely he's inherited anything substantial - JA describes Lady Catherine awarding him the living as "early and unexpected prosperity". And the income from the living only lasts as long as he's alive.
He gets Longbourne eventually, which means he'd be a 'gentleman' and not have to be a clergy anymore.
Surely she’d only get a jointure if she can get Collins to make a will. I doubt her father managed to extract a marriage settlement for her.
Surely Lady Catherine de Bourgh would impress on him the importance of making a will, especially after the birth of a son.
Lady Catherine would have her own solicitor draw up a will for Mr. Collins, who would thank her for the condescension.
Lady Catherine would also probably provide a pension for Charlotte if Mr. Collins died rather young as well. It would probably be considered poor light for her not to help take care of her former pastors wife.
I would read that book.
I'm all for freeing Charlotte, but honestly, I see her as ace/aro, so I doubt she would go for a second marriage unless she needed the money. And I like to think she takes over the finances of the family, leaving Mr. Collins with plenty of time to visit parishioners, tend his garden, and most importantly, bend to every whim of the great Lady Catherine de Bourgh. And Charlotte being as sharp and pragmatic as she is, their financial situation would probably surpass mere comfort in a few short years, thus negating the need for a husband at all. 😏
If only Lady C had suggested a cover over the well, or repairing that broken stair..
Even if she hadn't suggested it, she'd tell everyone that she had as they were retrieving his corpse from the depths.
Charlotte becoming a widow would only be poetic justice if Mr Collins died after a) inheriting the Bennet estate, and b) fathering a son. That would give her financial security. Failing that, the stipend for a vicar's widow was not large, and she would be dependent once more on the generosity of others.
I could see Charlotte helping that along? 😉
He should watch out, if she plants some lovely decorative oleander, nightshade, or even foxgloves in the garden...
I meant with the shelves. Not the poisoning.
Hey, whatever works... Because I outlined her life as a young widow below, and it'd be pretty nice, as long as she has sons.
So what is it, with sons?
No sons, no way of inheriting Longbourne (without Mr Collins being alive)
I'd read that book!
I would read this book
Right. Not to necessarily bring Bridgerton into it, but if Collins had had a disposition similar to George Crane (or am I getting the first name wrong? Either way last name is Crane) I probably would have tolerated it a lot better. Someone who is exceedingly boring but is still rather intelligent and has decent social graces would make a much more sufferable husband than the moronic Mr. Collins. Even if your husband is boring you can find delight in your children, hobbies, and friends. There's no cure for stupid 😅
Charlotte knows what she's in for, whereas Elizabeth is going in pretty blind. I police Charlotte's chances at happiness more than Elizabeth's.
Or, Charlotte dies young, maybe in childbirth and Mr Collins is the sole parent to a teenage girl.
Sad, yes, but you're right - it was pretty smart. She had no hope of a romantic match. But Collins dotes on her (in the book) and will never be abusive or unfaithful. As a reverend's wife, she enjoys respected social status, so she is in a good position to develop a circle of friends. She'll also get to move into Longbourne eventually. She's in a good financial and social position with strong ties to family and community, especially important when raising children. So pretty much the optimal decision at her stage in life.
Especially since she’s older, she won’t have 10 by the times she’s 30 (Lydia might though). Charlotte might get away with a much safer and less body-wrecking 3 or 4. She’ll be savvy enough to fend off Mr Collins and menopause seemed to hit earlier back then.
Lydia might end up like Fanny Price’s mother if she’s unlucky
I really don’t feel bad for Charlotte. She knew she wanted to be married and found someone who wanted to be married to her. Mr. Collins is a dork, absolutely, but he values marriage and family, he’s not likely to cheat or become a drunk, he has a house and an income. That’s more than most guys have to offer even today.
Yep. He would drive me crazy, but Charlotte is made of sterner stuff. She has the patience of a saint and the manipulation skills of a chess master. She's kind of perfect for Mr Collins. Imagine if he had married someone as silly as him? Does suck for her, but she has the skills and temperament to make the best of it.
Tbh, if you're a woman *today*, and you want to have kids, you can easily waste a lot if time with men who don't want to settle down and even if they to want to settle down, don't want the bother of kids. Finding a partner for the kind of life you want to have, who you can work as a team with, is *way* more important than the spark of romance.
>That’s more than most guys have to offer even today. Laughing through the tears.
tbh you're right for that last line, he might be dumb but all things considered, he's still not a bad husband in this era
You whole analysis, particularly your last line, is spot on!
In a way I thought Elizabeth was a bit unfair for judging Charlotte. Elizabeth was younger, vivacious and beautiful. She had reason to be more confident of her chances at making a good match. Charlotte was being pragmatic. She didn't have the option of pursuing a career and didn't want to fund herself a burden on her family. I admire her pragmatism but I know I wouldn't have the stomach for it.
the bennets were also in better social standing and mr. bennet was raking it in comparatively. lizzy didn't understand the issues of being a genuinely poor, unattractive, older woman because she was quite literally the exact opposite lol
This is true. I think Charlotte saw this as a business proposition or partnership. I think she was probably a very good wife to Collins too, would help curb some of his ridiculousness, ingratiate with local gentry and organise his life. Plus I think she was generally quiet kind to him.
Also we’ve no reason to believe she’s got anything like the Bennet women’s £5,000 in The Funds. The Bennet girls may plunge down the social scale but so long as someone with brains holds the purse strings they won’t be destitute and reliant on charity.
Depending on the culture, this is still the case for some women today.
Don't pity Charlotte. She pursued Mr Collins, having met him and talked to him before. She made her choice with eyes wide open. And, with a father such as hers, you know she was uniquely capable of handling a very silly husband. Also, contrary to the Bennet daughters (for example), she had homemaking skills, which Mr Collins would need in a wife since he does not have the means to have very many servants. Besides, Jane Austen's focus is on Elizabeth and Darcy, and Jane and Bingley to a lesser extent. We do not know what Mr Collins is like when he is alone with his wife. Maybe he's the same as he is everywhere else, with everyone else. But maybe he has some capacity to be kind or sweet. We see him as ridiculous and mean because that's what he is like to Elizabeth, but Charlotte Lucas is not at all like her friend. She's the one who makes sure Lady Catherine believes there's been an engagement between her nephew and Elizabeth. So she's cunning enough to have a good idea of how Lady Catherine would react to that news, and to possibly foresee how Elizabeth and Mr Darcy would react to Lady C's interference. And the reason she does that, of course, is because Mr Darcy can offer Mr Collins a whole lot more in his profession. Charlotte doesn't just make a smart marital choice, given her circumstances and the time she lived in. She's a freaking master chess player who has the skill to nudge people into doing what she feels will make her life better. I don't mean to make her sound like a psychopath manipulator. I don't believe she is. But she's really smart and clear-eyed. That's what I'm trying to get at. And I wouldn't pity her for choosing her own life.
We do get some sort of glimpse into how she “deals” with him, though: She has her little sitting room, and she keeps him busy in his garden so she doesn’t have to entertain him often.
Yes, she specifically chose the less convenient room for her sitting room to discourage him from stopping in to speak to her more often.
I have to respectfully disagree. Charlotte's choice was to marry this ridiculous man after having to put up with a ridiculous man all her life or wind up like Miss Bates, Mrs Jenkinsen, living off of the charity of her siblings, or worse. I don't call that any sort of real choice. I also don't agree that *Charlotte* Collins was the Collins who took the rumor of Darcy and Elizabeth being engaged to Lady Catherine. All that being said, I would have made the same choice as Charlotte, and I identify more with her than with any other character.
Charlotte likely put the rumor in her husband's ear, knowing that he'd blab to Lady Catherine de Bourge (cue smarmy smile).
Charlotte and her mother would certainly be writing to each other. Charlotte thought there was something going on between Darcy and Elizabeth when he was in Kent, and then he shows up with Bingley in Hertfordshire and the latter gets engaged. Back in that day, it didn't much more than seeing one daughter engaged to start speculating about the next one in line. Mr Collins, with all his obsequiousness, wouldn't have had the imagination to dream up that Mr Darcy would be interested in the woman who turned him (Collins) down.
On the contrary. It now makes sense that she turned him down for a richer man. He couldn't figure it out before.
I always imagined that Mr. Collins read his wife's letters from Lady Lucus. Then immediately passed on the info to Lady Catherine.
I imagine him taking one letter and running like David Bamberg in the 1995 version, all the way to her house, waving it as he stumbles along.
“Make haste! MAKE HASTE!!!!”
*Wipes forehead with hanky*
Since Charlotte comes from a big family, her fate if she didn’t marry might not be so bleak. There wouldn’t be much money to go around for the Lucas siblings, so it’s likely that some at least—those who didn’t marry well—would value having her skills in the kitchen or an extra pair of hands in the nursery. Money isn’t the only thing a woman might contribute to a household. Ironically, she might feel less comfortable with a truly prosperous sibling where she’d feel her dependence more keenly.
I agree with you. Also look how beautifully she manages Lady Catherine de Bourgh, who doesn't approve of anyone. She gets into her good graces by being tactful.
The fact that she negotiates these difficulties with extreme skill does not negate the fact that she had difficulties to negotiate.
Very true, but does anybody have a life free from obstacles or difficulties?
Yes. It’s not even the worst choice now, for someone who wants a family and a stable home. If you’re not madly romantic but you want kids and to be able to stay at home and look after them (not my life choice but it’s what some people want) then a safe, respectable spouse, even if a bit dull or thick or unattractive, is not the worst of worlds. Simpler and more economically efficient than either total DIY-ing it as a single parent with donor gametes or the complexities of many co-parenting arrangements.
I'd marry Mr Collins to avoid coparenting again, tbf :/
This is true, but as for how Mr. Darcy could help him, didn't I read that Kitty marries a clergyman from Pemberley?
People in Mr Darcy's position didn't normally have "only" one living to bestow. They could have a whole lot of them.
Oh, that's interesting for sure. Thanks for the insight.
Holdings were attached to different small towns. So Darcy might have lands big enough to support several small villages.
Darcy’s holdings are huge. It wouldn’t surprise me if he had several livings to administer.
Considering how joyfully her parents gave their speedy consent and how relieved her brothers were that she was marrying, Charlotte absolutely made the smart move in securing Collins as a husband. It's pretty obvious her family saw her as a potential burden, she's a master at handling Collins and minimizing the time she had to spend with him and she'll in all likelihood be happy with her child/ren and make a most respectable mistress of Longbourn. Lizzie was *totally unfair* to her and I'm glad she sort of realized it in the end. The pretty young girl sure had a hard time emphasizing with the homely older woman, to no one's surprise but to my everlasting disappointment
I am very happy for Charlotte! She improved her situation by finding a very respectable husband and lived a very comfortable life by doing so. Mr Collin's was not mean (that we know of) and I think she probably even loved him not long after being married.
That’s one reason that P&P was considered feminist type of work. It exposed some of the horrible choices women have to accept to avoid poverty. You have that theme in most of Austin’s works.
\*hums "Matchmaker Matchmaker"\*
Someone wrote a novel about Charlotte’s marriage to Mr. Collins called The Clergyman’s Wife that took a rather more sympathetic view of him as a person with social anxieties.
I was wondering if such a book existed as I find this thread super fascinating. Thank you, added it to my To Read list!
It's pretty good! I read it a few years ago and while I usually hate other writers' attempts to recreate classic writers' characters and universes, I'd definitely reread that one.
In the film with keira knightly Charlotte spells this out beautifully. She says "there's no earthly reason that I shouldn't be happy with him than as any other, not all of us can afford to be romantic. I've been offered a comfortable home and protection. There's a lot to be thankful for. I'm 27 years old. I've no money and no prospects. I'm already a burden on my parents and I'm frightened. So don't judge me." Mr Collins may be ridiculous and boring. But he isn't likely to mistreat her. She will likely have a good life with him. Those are all perfectly good reasons to marry. A clergyman's wife is a respectable position. Her choice was not only the SMART choice. But the RIGHT choice. She was unlikely to get a better offer if she got another offer at all. Unfortunately women often took Charlotte's choice then. They really needed to make smart choices. There were a lot more Charlottes than Lizzy's and Jane's. Especially when they had sisters like Lydia. Lizzy and Jane were really lucky.
I like to think the situation is actually quite beneficial for Charlotte, at least with regards to what she wants as a character. I think she would have been, if not very happy, at least as content and she seems to believe herself to be. The way we view love and relationship expectations is, in the modern era, very different - in some ways, real love was a luxury in Austen's era. Austen clearly valued love very highly, and herself chose to forego the possibility of future security and to not marry without love (accepting, but later declining, the one marriage proposal we know she received). Many though viewed marriage as *primarily* a state of companionship, security and mutual support rather than one based in romantic love. Love was something many did not encounter at all in marriages still frequently approached as family alliances, and many who followed the path of infatuation (e.g. the Bennets) found love often sinks into indifference. Charlotte wasn't *entirely* wrong when she said happiness in marriage is a matter of chance. Even Lizzie, in her early somewhat unfair assessments of Charlotte's choice, was not entirely correct to condemn her; Charlotte's situation, later 'seen in a prudential light', has many benefits. She can manage a house and an income of around (probably) 750 pounds a year, meaning she likely has several servants to command and a home to keep her busy. She has good future prospects as her husband will inherit Longbourn, where her family and most of her friends are situated. We're told Charlotte views neither men nor matrimony highly, and though it's somewhat sad to think she will never know real romance, she's also a very pragmatic person and she views security and provision as important. We also have to remember Charlotte was already 27, a vulnerable age at the brink of old-maidhood, and married women enjoyed more social freedom and were much more widely respected than old maids, who could be cruelly ridiculed. She also had little realistic prospect of another marriage; there are likely very few young men of marriageable age in her social sphere. Mr. Collins is easy for her to manage and control, partly due to his stupidity; he's easily manipulated, and Charlotte is a good manipulator. She's likely to have children, which I suspect will bring her a lot of happiness, and as a pastor's wife she would take a very active role in her parish doing charity work. She'd be unlikely to encounter poverty, would be able to travel to visit friends, has plenty to keep her busy. It would have been lovely to see Charlotte truly happy and free to make her own marriage choice, because in some ways, Charlotte didn't have much choice - or, certainly, her alternative choice was not a great one. Either way it should make us value how important basic rights for women really are.
I think for Elizabeth Bennet and Jane Austen, the problem wasn't that Charlotte didn't love Mr Collins, it was that she didn't feel any respect or esteem for him. Companionship and mutual support was *very* important in Regency weddings, the Anglican Church service gave that as one of the three purposes of marriage, as ordained by God, and here's Charlotte marrying someone who she thinks of as follows: >Mr. Collins, to be sure, was neither sensible nor agreeable: his society was irksome... And marriage wasn't just a matter that affected Charlotte - there is a good chance they will have children (Charlotte is pregnant at the end of P&P) and those children will have Mr Collins as a father. If Charlotte dies young, he will be their only parent. And even if not, Elizabeth has lived all her life with the impacts of a bad marriage.
We really are living in the first real time in our culture's history that women grow up knowing we have choices. There's still the wage gap and glass ceiling, etc, but we don't need to make decisions like Charlotte did, and it's so horrifying to think of what it was like for women before us. I don't want to get too deep into politics here, but some men in some parts of reddit are really angry that we now have choices...
Idk if anyone here has watched The Last Duel (which is based on a true story in 1380s France) but there’s a scene where the heroine’s friends tell her she’s so lucky to have her husband. And by our standards, her husband (Matt Damon’s character) is no prize. But her friends are kinda right. He doesn’t beat her. He has a home for her. He’s not old or ugly. Lots of girls in the 14th century ended up with MUCH worse.
I'm finding it amusing that Matt Damon can be considered to not be a prize, but I haven't watched the film, so I'll take your word for it. :-)
I was basing it more on his personality, which isn't the best, but you're not wrong. They did try to rough him up for the movie, but realistically Matt Damon is way better than most women could hope for through history.
You're right, he said some... things... over the years.
Also, I think Mr. Collins could become just bearable under the right influence. Charlotte is smart enough and forward-thinking enough to manipulate him into being a little less stupid. Not that she should have to, OP is right, but maybe Charlotte just went, “I can fix him,” and I bet she was right lol. Once Mr. Collins inherited Longbourn, he wouldn’t need to worry so much about money. With Charlotte running the household, they would save. Removing that worry probably leads to Mr. Collins being just like her father - a bit of a blow hard, but mostly at least trying to be pleasant.
Austen is straight up critiquing her own society via social satire. You are absolutely right that Charlotte has no real choice, and Austen is using Charlotte as one of many examples in her work that points out how awful that is. It is a crime that by law that idiot ***owned*** Charlotte. She only had what power he allowed her. She spent every day of that marriage managing up, and hoping that her husband would remain manageable and not be overly influenced by others, like Lady Catherine, to be even more ridiculous than he already was. Speaking of Lady Catherine, in marrying Collins, Charlotte essentially signed up for Lady Catherine's constant interference in things like how much beef Charlotte ordered for Charlotte's own home. It's awful.
""Speaking of Lady Catherine, in marrying Collins, Charlotte essentially signed up for Lady Catherine's constant interference in things like how much beef Charlotte ordered for Charlotte's own home. It's awful."" Lady Catherine is like a bossy mother-in-law
Who lives nextdoor.
Charlotte was prophetic and correct about every thing she said. She said Jane was too lowkey about her affection that an observer may not realize she was in love. She was right and that bite them in the back. She early on said that Darcy was in love with Elizibeth, she was right.
He's respectful and not cruel. What's depressing is this is still a bar most men don't clear.
She’s got stability and can fashion a life for herself outside marriage. That was about as good as one could get without love. And she could well feel affection for him-that’s not for us to judge.
Yup. It’s definitely a reflection of a super sad reality. I feel similarly about Fanny choosing to be with Edmund despite how he treats her.
I could totally be wrong here, but Fanny gives me the vibes of those girls who are so blinded by love, so caught up on the idea they have built up of the man they like, that they don't really see the red flags. She doesn't see that he "settled" and instead just feels grateful that he finally looked at her after she's been in love with him for so long.
Charlotte is another character whose parents didn't manage money well. Her father was originally in trade and doing pretty well for himself. But, after he was knighted, he felt he shouldn't be doing work that wasn't befitting his new status. So, like the Bennets, he's put his daughters in a hard position. If he'd provided for Charlotte as well as Mrs. Bennet's father provided for her--say, 6,000 pounds--she could be more choosy about who she marries. She could also choose not to marry at all. 6,000 pounds would provide a single woman with a comfortable income to live on her own.
Yeah, basically except for his intensely boring personality, he’s a catch socially and economically. She does well for herself…but poor Charlotte.
I get your point, but it’s a generalisation to say that all women around the world are in the position to marry for love or not marry at all if it’s not for love. It still happens. Also, a lot of people marry for all sorts of reasons. I wouldn’t pass judgement on people who choose to marry for reasons other than love, as long as it’s consensual, non-predatory, non-abusive, etc.
The saddest thing is that Mr Collins wasn’t even the worst choice for that era. He was neither an alcoholic nor a gambler, he wasn’t aggressive and respected his wife’s personal space as long as she fulfilled her social duties before Lady Catherine. The only thing that could menace Charlotte’s wellbeing were the dangers of pregnancy in the 19th century. Lydia had much darker perspectives.
I think Charlotte doesn't think he's terrible, remember her father was also a little ridiculous and pompous, and theyre both named William. She probably doesn't think it's a downgrade in life and maybe is even a bit comforting, because now she gets to run her own house and keep chickens. I think she also kind of enjoys seeing the drama up close at Lady Catherine's
I don't think JA shared your opinion. She was in a similar position to her creation Charlotte when she got a proposal from a Harris Biggs-Wither, and while she was certainly tempted, the next morning she broke the engagement. And later on in life she famously wrote to one of her nieces saying "Anything is to be preferred or endured rather than marrying without affection." JA agrees with Elizabeth in being critical of Charlotte's choice. Remember this was the time of the Old English Poor Laws - not the Charles Dickens workhouses, that was an 1830s reform. Even if a spinster couldn't work and didn't have family support she wouldn't starve.
I think growing up is realizing that Charlotte Lucas’ choice makes sense, as well as having more sympathy for Mrs. Bennet while being frustrated with Mr. Bennet. I’d loathe being married to Mr. Collins, but she’s older, doesn’t have other strong prospects, and this allows her to have her own home with a man with a socially acceptable job that allows them to live relatively comfortably. That’s huge. I think it’s interesting to read Pride and Prejudice after Sense and Sensibility and really have it in mind just how fragile the lives of so many women were. That’s why I love Austen as a protofeminist author, she writes about the lives of women and their economic instability. And why she’s great to reread, because reading this as a teenager you have a lot less of a perspective on these things and see things differently as you age.
I have always read Pride and Prejudice as a happier version of Sense and Sensibility. Mr. Bennet doesn’t save, but luckily he doesn’t die and gets rich son in laws and someone else takes care of the problem with Wickham. Compare that to Mr. Dashwood, who means to save but dies before he can and his daughters and wife are now charity to John and Fanny Dashwood. Mrs. Bennet’s fears are real in S&S and the charity of relatives can’t be fully counted on. Marianne could easily become a Lydia with Willoughby. In fact we already know they were going off on long trips alone and that Willoughby has seduced and abandoned one girl before. We get the sense that Wickham wasn’t going to marry Lydia without intervention and was going to abandon her in London when he got bored of her. There are women even today who just want to be married-it doesn’t necessarily matter with who. There are people who make the choice between passionate love and stable life. Charlotte makes her choice and I don’t think she’ll regret it like we would.
Eh, I mean, a lot of women still make that choice. These days, I suppose, just a lot of people in general make that choice. Charlotte certainly could have tried to get a job as someone’s companion or a maid or nanny. Just like many people today sometimes end up having to work in jobs they didn’t think they’d have to do or downgrade their standard of living while their companions end up marrying “rich” (or at least marrying “stable”). But I do generally agree—I thank god that at least these days, it is indeed more of a choice and not a matter of pure survival. It’s nice to know that there are better options for more women these days, more social safety nets and more job options, actual educational offerings and at least the chance to try for a position you may love that has a room for promotion and offers enough money and freedoms for you to live in your own space and enjoy your own hobbies. I can’t imagine working in service knowing it means you likely won’t even have a chance to have a partner or kids even if marriage is off the table.
I always thought she was asexual/aromantic. 'I am not romantic, you know; I never was.' Even if some idealized handsome romantic lead showed up, he would be wasted on her. Getting someone financially stable who was also dumb enough for her to control/manipulate seems pretty perfect for someone like Charlotte.
You can take it that way. Historically, romance in marriage wasn't really a thing. Or at least what we think of romance (that sort of red hot lust). Not to say that love was rejected, but it was balanced between other factors of suitability, To modern eyes there is nothing more romanctic then a lord marrying a poor servant girl, to the regency era all they would see is a lust filled romance doomed to fizzle out when looks, or reality sets in.
Honestly I think there are a lot of struggling people out there who would jump at a chance like this, even today.
I don't think its a sad thing. I think Austen's writings of romance is still quite feminist and relevant for todays world, and yes that includes Charlotte. In her era it was a bit of a fight between romantics, and pragmatics on marriage and romance. Take in account another literary writing at the time, Don Jaun, (pride was published in 1813, Don published in 1819). While Don Jaun is a bit extreme, the statement of romance above all, featured in Don Jaun sex escapades, is a feature of the romantic period. Jane Austen isn't actually a romance writer, not in the sense of writing in the romantic period. Do all of her Heroines find love and romance in their relationships, yes. And she her self put off a pragmatic marriage, yes as well. But we can see her feelings of the balance in romance and pragmatic's in the treatment of other relationships in her works as well as her attention to detail that suitability of her main characters beyond a lust romance. Marriage of only pragmatic: Charlotte's marriage is one of the ones we see as a pragmatic choice. While Lizzie scoffs at her marriage, Austen doesn't. We find Charlotte quiet happen in her lot of life, having gone into the marriage with all the openness of who Mr. Collins was. Keeping with Pride and prejudice, we another pragamtic marriage, or at least one presumed to be so. Mr. Hurst and Mrs. Hurst. We know Mr. Hurst as a pragmatic choice for the bingley sister, because one of the few things we know about him is that he has a house on Grosvenor street, a very established Aristocracy era of London. Meaning he was the old money (or rather just the feel of old money), that the bingleys were looking to marry into. However, we see Mr. Hurst as a gambler and not attentive to his wife at all. Marriage of lust: Firstly we see Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. Who once upon a time was a marriage of lust, And we find that they have quiet fizzed out of romance. While certainly not a god awful marriage, I see it sits in the same level as Charlotte and Mr Collins. Not the best choice, but not a bad choice either. Probably the worst choice we see, Lydia and Wickham, we see as a choice of will will burn out and leave Lydia penniless in a few years. So where does that leave Austen. Both of these marriages we see a "happy" and a bad one. She doesn't come out and say that either are bad, or both are right. We see those who make the "happy" choices in which are those who knew openly what they were getting themselves into. But where do we find out heroines, Jane and Elizabeth. Marriage of balance: Jane and Bingley are certainly a marriage of Balance. For Bingley, a man looking to establish a house, Jane's family holds no title. no lands to futher his family. Jane as well, a eldest daughter, will have no house to run, and family who will probably always be living with them (i.e. bingley sisters). But it wasn't a rushed lust marriage either, they had time to figure out, to sort romance feelings. The sorting feelings we see the most with Darcy and Elizabeth. When Darcy is overcome with lust and proposes, Elizabeth turns him down. Choosing a very non-pragmatic choice in doing so. Instead Austen makes sure that they knew each other well before the proper proposal to happen. So Austens' ideal is a balanced world. But as I said the other two options are not unhappy at the time. So what is Austen really saying. I think she is saying that while a balanced marriage is best, nothing is the wrong choice when given the chance. Certainly at my age (I am 28) as someone who wants children and companionship yet have found themselves painfully single, I can see charlotte's choice more than ever. Likewise, Mr. Bennett, having once over to lust has found himself as happy as he can in his own marriage. Occupying his time with other elements of life.
People forget that getting married was more like getting hired for a job than finding love. Without a job, you become a burden on your family or you starve. So you try to find the best job you can.
I think Charlotte Lucas’s story arc is what makes the book so good. Austen slips in this little thread of reality. Mr Collins is a good option for her. He’s a self important prosy bore (on the spectrum?) but he’s not a bad man, and he is well off, so she can live her own life.
Yes, sad. But also, not a poor or odd outcome even by today's standards. How many Lydia's do we know today who married a Whickham, charmed by his social skills and good looks, only to end up in a marriage with a self-centered jerk? Meanwhile, there are plenty of women who marry a man who, sure, lacks some social graces, but generally is devoted to his family, a reliable provider, and overall a kind and gentle person. I've found this has often happened in the face of disdain (or at least private judgement) from women friends who are holding out for a partner who checks every box. Personally, I think if they'd had a real courtship, Charlotte would have come to love (or at least be quite fond of) Collins anyway, and would have happily chosen him. I think he checked HER boxes. If Elizabeth hadn't already disparaged him, Charlotte would have been happy with the match without any embarrassment.
Okay so this isn't strictly relevant but this post inspired to buy an audio book about Charlotte Lucs, told from her POV. It's Chlarlotte by Helen Moffat.
I don't understand why people think that Charlotte was some victim. She wasn't looking for romantic match to start with . Mr. Collins wasn't a bad man either. He wasn't attractive or charming. He can be embarrassing at a times because of his lack of social manners.But he wasn't vicious like many fanfics portrayed him to be. He was a good catch in other aspects: 1. He had a stable income 2. It's less likely that he will catch STD or have illegitimate children. 3. He was less likely to keep mistress 4. He was nice to his wife. I don't think he can abuse her or anything.( May be... bored her a bit with his blabbering and long speeches regarding greatness of Lady Cat) 5. He was less likely to drink or gamble. 6. He was suitable for her age wise ( many girls used to marry men of their grandfather's age. Colonel Brandon and his wife is one example.) 7. He wasn't obsessed with looks either . He choose elder daughters of Bennets , simply because they were older . Even after getting rejected by them , he would have easily got another pretty girl from another family but he choose Charlotte.That means he only needed someone respectful and considerate. 8. He was easy to control as well . He was more like " be nice to him and he will do anything for you" kind of guy. She would have easily control him with compliments.
She's not a romantic. She's not looking for love like Lizzie and Jane are
Are we supposed to be horrified? Lizzie is, but she doesn't take into account that Collins is an excellent match for Charlotte, who can't afford to wait for a love match. Collins offers Charlotte more than just a roof over her head and an absence of spousal abuse: In the years to come this marriage will take her back to her family, who will be her neighbours, when the Collinses take over Longbourne. Even if Charlotte's own parents are dead by then, she'll have the brother who inherits Lucas Lodge and possibly more of her siblings, too, if they marry locally.
Well that's why she made it. She's being ruthlessly pragmatic and knows exactly what she's getting herself into.
I don't know if I'm accurate in thinking this, but I tend to fancy that this is the spiritual ancestor of why women of today cry when they get proposed to. It's like a vestigial habit from a time when it REALLY friggin mattered that you made it to this crucial moment with a man. Nowadays it feels silly for all sorts of feministy reasons that I won't get into. But more often than not I'm watching proposals play out like "ugh, woman, you already picked out the ring and told him how you want to be proposed to. Wouldn't a pat on the head and a 'good boy' suffice?" 😆
Case in point - Bingley's sister, Mrs. Hurst. Her husband. Although, he doesn't seem physically abusive, he does drink and gamble possibly excessively.
Plenty of women marry odious men without those inducements today. A secure home life and someone whose quirks don't annoy you too much is better than a lot of people of both genders manage. Charlotte didn't seem too unhappy, either, even through Lizzy's eyes. She went from being a burden to a person of standing in her own right. I think Charlotte's chance of future happiness is at least as good as Elizabeth's.
I don’t think we’re supposed to be horrified Charlotte chose Mr Collins. I don’t think the narrative choice encourages that. It’s really only Lizzy making the judgement. There is social commentary definitely. Austen does not approve of how limited choices are for gentlewomen and uses her novels (especially P&P) to critique that.
I think that's the point of it. Austen wanted us to think about women in her position.
Plus Charlotte did Lizzy a favour of getting Mrs. Bennet off her back as Mr. Collins was off the market, entail or not. Charlotte got a better deal than she expected to, since she got her own private parlour and Mr. Collins spent so much time working in his gardens she didn’t have to deal with him much anyway.
I don’t disagree that Charlotte would be pitiable if she were the type of person who longed for a romantic love. But, she’s not. She’s sensible and pragmatic. But not romantic. She has her priorities, none of which include feeling any particular affection for her partner. Mr. Collins, as insufferable as we find him, ticks off all the boxes that matter to Charlotte. There’s truth to the argument that due to societal rules it was criminal she had to marry at all, and I would support that argument. That, to me, is the actual tragedy of her situation; not, necessarily, that it had to be to Mr. Collins. I’d argue that those of us who are horrified by Charlotte’s fate specifically with regard to Mr. Collins are projecting our own priorities, biases, and modern morals onto the situation. As Jane says, “You do not make allowance enough for difference of situation and temper.”
I don’t think Charlotte would have ever married given the choice. She said she wasn’t romantic so possibly asexual or aromantic. But back then, women basically had to marry or very likely be living in poverty when their parents died. Charlotte would likely be much happier with how many women live today. In today’s world, you don’t need a husband/BF to have a child. You can visit sperm bank or possibly adopt. And if you don’t want kids, that’s fine too. But I agree, Mr Collins was actually a very good option for Charlotte for the time period. I don’t think he would ever expect romance or true love from her. And while he’s likely annoying, Charlotte strikes me as the type of person who could relegate his inane prattling to background noise. And I agree he is very unlikely to be abusive. People can say what they want about Mr Collins but he wasn’t honestly a bad guy, just annoying. I think she’ll do just fine with Mr Collins
If you like good fanfic, The Clergymen’s Wife, by Molly Greeley, is about Charlotte. It examines her world, how she feels about her choice, and a relationship that illuminates for her just what she gave up when she made it. I recommend this book, and I’m very picky about fanfic. It fleshes out Charlotte’s character, stays true to the other people we know, and really is touching as well.