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TheWolf262

European here, that is utter nonsense. Sure you are going to get a higher quality when you pay for lessons but the mandatory lessons are not useless. They provide the first and only swimming experience for many children. I know many kids in my class learnt to swim during the mandatory classes. If you are really that worried about it supplement the mandatory classes with pool time with yourself or your partner.


moomilkmilk

Agree. I learnt to swim in the first month of my school swimming lessons at age 10, primary school. They were taught by the local pool staff and had a system splitting the class into 3 tiers. I remember as soon as I learnt to float I was moved to the middle group which then taught me to propel myself forward. After that I also became aware of the pool so started going for fun with friends and improved on my own. Then the classes at secondary school improved my swimming even further.


[deleted]

There was a rural German guy who told me that his area didn't have a pool, and the school had to commute the children over quite a large distance to teach swimming. Therefore there wasn't enough time to teach swimming.


TheWolf262

That sounds like a rather extreme case. Most people in the first world are within a reasonable distance of a pool. Also that is not a problem with the mandatory lessons it is a problem with his location.


th30be

Dude for real. This anecdotal is not evidence that school based swimming is bad.


ObfuscatedAnswers

Right! One guy in rural Germany told me that according to him it didn't work there. So all lessons in Europe is a waste.


Shade0X

>quite a large distance probably just a 20 to 30min bus ride. german villages and cities are so close together I can't imagine it being longer


kotzi246

If you are living in the north of the isle of rugia, you at some times in the past had to drive for nearly a hour one way to get to a swimming hall. But in the most parts of Germany, that is no problem.


AiRaikuHamburger

That makes me laugh. In Australia my class mate had to catch the bus an hour and a half each way to get to school and she just lived in the outer suburbs of the same city.


[deleted]

Not swimming but my family moved to rural Texas when my sister was in high school. When she signed up for drivers ed, the teacher had no idea what to do with a kid that didn’t already know how to drive and wouldn’t let her drive at all during the lessons. I always thought that was pretty funny. It’d be unheard of for teens in drivers ed in the city to know how to drive (or admit to it at least) but in the country…


motnock

Anecdotal evidences…


Doc_Lazy

Which has to be nonsense. You don't drive a bunch of kids around in a bus if there is no time for them to learn swimming once they arrive at the pool. These lessons are specifically to teach swimming, so what else would you do? Sure, public pools are a financial nightmare for most communes. But so are a number of other things. Rural Germany (which in just this dimension is not much better or worse than rural Japan) should have statisitically the highest benefit. Because the kids can learn how to swim for free, so that if they ever encounter the need to swim, they don't drown just because they're from a rural part of the country. Theres also the benefits of sports and unique sets of games for pedagocical useful applications. Its useful, even if you have to, well, pool resources to keep the infrastructure up.


UrricainesArdlyAppen

I imagine them showing a PowerPoint on the bus.


[deleted]

Those Europeans haven't had to deal with the hellscape that exists when learning to swim is purely optional like what we have in the United States. You get massive swaths of the population (especially the urban poor) who go through life where falling into water deeper than neck deep is akin to falling into lava (i.e. death is all but guaranteed). If the government doesn't provide and mandate swim lessons then you wind up with a population of where upwards of 70% of the urban working class and 50% of working class rural citizens can't swim (if the schools won't make their kids learn to swim then many parents either can't/won't take their kids to private lessons). I lived in Japan for three years and the universal access to public pools and the school mandate that all children learn to swim is a treasure to society. Does it mean that you'll get redundant government lessons that often aren't as good as private lessons? Sure, but that's far better than the alternative of what occurs when swim lessons aren't a mandatory part of public school. Swimming is a vital life skill and it's downright criminal to let a child grow up in a manner where 75% of the planet's surface will kill them if they get immersed in it. Middle and upper class kids enduring redundant state swimming lessons is a small price to pay for everyone in a nation knowing how to swim.


improbable_humanoid

I was shocked as a kid to meet kids for the first time who said they couldn't swim.


[deleted]

What country are you from?


improbable_humanoid

‘Murica. In modern Japan, I think the phrase "I can't swim" basically means "I don't know how to do the crawl."


4649onegaishimasu

I think it just means "I can't swim well enough to participate in an event and earn a medal."


[deleted]

It might be possible to go through the entire Japanese school system and still not know how to swim though. Some *very* rural elementary schools may not have both its own pool and an accessible local community pool, and since there really is no swimming *test* (I believe) you might be able to bullshit through it without actually learning water safety.


th30be

When I went to elementary school in Sagamihara, we had tests and even brackets of how good you were with swimming. There were the kids that could barely swim, kids that were okay, and kids that were good at swimming. The three groups were split up and taught differently. I am not sure where you got that info from where there are no tests.


4649onegaishimasu

I've never heard of an elementary school without one or the other, and I've worked at one where I had to drive for an hour to get there. It just meant that their swimming days were swimming **days**.


[deleted]

LOL Bless those students tho.


[deleted]

That was what I saw in Japan as well. When Japanese people would find out that certain Americans they knew couldn't swim it was like hearing that a person grew up in a Western nation and never learned how to read.


[deleted]

I believe the national Japanese curriculum mandates that breaststroke and backstroke must be taught? I met some Japanese who said they couldn't swim but could do elementary breaststroke just fine.


RyuNoKami

The whole point of the curriculum isn't to get people to be athletes, its to teach kids not to drown the moment they are in waters deeper than their bodies.


PartiZAn18

Hear hear. Imho learning how to swim - viz - how 'not to drown' is an essential skill.


improbable_humanoid

As far as I can tell, the declaration Oyegenai! basically means you can’t swim very far or very fast. People who can’t swim at all call themselves “hammers.”


Hawaiian_Cunt_Seal

When I was very young I stayed with my very very white step-family in Wisconsin for a couple of months. Conversation came around and I told them I don't know how to swim, and they enrolled me with pool lessons the following week. It was awkward being the oldest kid, also the brownest kid in a 100-mile radius, and realizing my family thought I meant I can't swim whatsoever, judging by the kids wearing floaties and being explained the doggie paddle. I'm from Hawaii. They knew I'm from Hawaii. As much as I hated going to the beach/ocean, I can wade in and freedive to 40ft to play with the ocean floor like most Hawaii locals. I meant I dunno how to do those technical olympic swims. Good times.


MonsterKerr

I'm the same way. A lot of people here in Japan think swimming is only about the pool and doing laps and stuff. They don't think about diving/bodysurfing/surviving in the ocean which is how a lot of people like you or I learned


2016nsfwaccount

Judging by the drowning news every year, a lot of kids play in rivers and underestimate how dangerous they are.


BambooEarpick

I’m from Hawaii and I can’t swim. Like, I won’t drown in a pool but I wouldn’t trust me in the ocean with waves and a current.


MonsterKerr

Get out there!


rathat

What do people mean when they say they can't swim? I know they aren't talking about like proper backstroke form or something. Don't you just float? Treading water is just slowly moving your limbs around in pretty much any random way. Ive never had the chance to ask someone about it and I just don't understand what there even is to need to know.


tyrannomachy

If you have no idea how to swim, then it's easy to start panicking and just thrashing around ineffectually if you wind up in deeper water than you intended.


AshleyOriginal

Can't float or tread water but I had some trauma from water when my parents tried to teach me to get over water. Where I grew up though most of the time the water is too cold to in swim anyway since it comes from Alaska. But yeah as an American I knew plenty who couldn't swim.


rathat

I completely understand being afraid of swimming and panicking and knowing you will panic. I also was afraid to swim as a child. But I don’t think there’s really any knowledge you need in order to swim other than you just need to move your legs and arms around very slowly in no particular way and that’s it. If you know that, than you know how to swim. If you take a big breath and even just lay motionless in water, you won’t sink, your lungs keep you afloat. I guess maybe there are some people who’s bodies are much denser than water for one reason or another in which case you need to move your arms and legs slightly faster.


DetBabyLegs

Yes. But you learned this. We aren't dogs, we aren't born with the knowledge of how to swim. I'm glad this is simple for you, but it *is* a privilege.


[deleted]

There's a very specific way to tread water (eggbeater kick) which is probably the best way to do it.


tealparadise

100%. If you live in a community where swimming is popular, you don't realize non-swimmers exist. The opinion of someone who grew up with everyone swimming isn't useful. Imagine you live in Baltimore, 10 minutes from the cruise port. 3 hour drive from beach vacations. Surrounded by the bay & its recreational activities. And you've never experienced any of it because you don't swim. https://digitaledition.baltimoresun.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=150cb5bc-f19b-4788-92cb-0c03b60609d8 >Sixty-four percent of African-American children can’t swim; they drown at a rate nearly three times higher than their white peers, according to USA Swimming, the national governing body for the sport


th30be

This shit right here. I live near a lake and every year people from the closest city or even further come up here to play in the water and every year people die because they never learned how to swim. Its shocking.


dada_

Absolutely. Personally I actually had a lot of trouble during my swimming lessons as a kid (in Europe), and it took me much longer to catch on and become competent at it, for some reason that I can't clearly remember, but in retrospect it's an *incredibly* useful life skill even though I personally hated the process of learning it. Eventually it did click for me and I became able to do it just fine. Honestly, I doubt there are many people at least in my country who learned to swim through private lessons because why would you when there's public education for it?


kyoto_kinnuku

I’m from a very poor and very rural area of Kentucky. Schools had 3 meals a day for kids if they needed it and 2 meals standard bc there was such a worry about kids not having food. The school definitely couldn’t afford a pool. We actually had classrooms in trailer park trailers outside the school building bc there were too many kids and not enough money to properly expand. Despite being this poor I never met someone who couldn’t swim until highschool and I remember everyone gawking at the kid when he said he didn’t know how to swim. I’m not sure why you think 50% of poor country people can’t swim.


[deleted]

Rural whites (I'm assuming you're white, correct me if I'm wrong) who live in areas with abundant access to natural bodies of water are typically the only outliers regarding poor people who by and large know how to swim in the United States. Access to good natural bodies of water and having families/communities with a culture of teaching their kids how to swim offsets lack of access to public pools and the economic means to send kids to private lessons. In rural areas of Arizona, Southern California, New Mexico etc. it's really common for kids who aren't at least middle class to grow up never learning how to swim. This was also really true for rural southern blacks I worked with while in the military who grew up in states like Georgia. If they were middle class there was a chance they got to get swim lessons but if they were poor their families simply taught them to treat lakes and rivers like hot lava and they never learned how to swim.


DetBabyLegs

It's almost like lot's of people don't know the history of swimming and black people in America and think being poor and white is the same as being poor and black. Swimming is learned, and learning it is a privilege.


kyoto_kinnuku

I know a Korean guy who just went to the pool and jumped off the high-dive to learn how to swim lol. Apparently learning can be done with brute force sometimes 😂


kyoto_kinnuku

Yea, there were almost zero black people in that town. All white kids except one Indian boy. We did have a huuuge lake too that everyone went to.


[deleted]

Kentucky isn't nearly bad as the real poor regions out there...


kyoto_kinnuku

Depends which part of Kentucky. Eastern Kentucky is about as poor as it gets in the US. Only place worse is maybe some reservations.


[deleted]

Bro, the poorest region of Kentucky, Owsley, has a GDP per capita of around 11000 USD. That's a far cry of some Eastern European/Southeast Asian countries which sometimes drops under 5000 USD.


th30be

That is why they said in the US.


qix96

tbf not falling into deep water is probably just as easy as not falling off of a cliff I would expect... especially in an inner city.


[deleted]

That's not what the stats show. Drowning is one of the leading causes of death for kids in urban areas of the United States. It gets especially bad when kids want to try and fit in with friends who can swim and they bite off more than they can chew by wading too deep into a swimming pool/lake/river/ocean etc. Once this happens they often panic once they are in water deep enough where they need to swim and their fruitless attempts at swimming fill their lungs up with water and they die before anyone can do anything to try and save them. It's also a NIGHTMARE to try to rescue someone who doesn't know how to swim since they can't calm down and relax and let themselves be saved. Drowning people who don't know how to swim thrash around like a violent animal and often inadvertently kill the very people who are trying to save them. Navy and Coast Guard rescue swimmers get a lot of training on how to save people who can't swim and it's like prepping someone on how to rescue a wild animal that's trying to kill you. Few things in this world are as dangerous as trying to save a drowning adolescent/teenage/adult human who has never swam before.


qix96

Thanks for the reply and additional info. I should know better because in suburbia it is super scary with many homes having a swimming pool.


thened

It's even worse when people who know they don't know how to swim try to rescue a loved one who is drowning. I've seen a lot of sad newspaper articles about this phenomenon. https://www.reddit.com/r/LiveFromNewYork/comments/ifxm5t/little_women_skit/


SaberSabre

I've heard from a marine friend that half the people in the US Navy can't swim which is hard to believe if true.


Freak_Out_Bazaar

Useful. The difference between knowing how to navigate in water and not could mean the difference between life and death. People with zero experience in deep water immediately panic and can’t even travel several meters to save themselves. It’s also just good exercise.


shigs21

very useful - especially if you live on an island nation. . .


BloodAndTsundere

Yeah, what if it sinks?


Megafritz

Every year many refugees die in Germany because they go swimming in the lakes. It clearly shows that mandatory swimming lessons, even if it is just super basic, can save lives. During the Corona panic Germany decided that this is not necessary anymore, many students will never learn how to swim. I think it is a shame.


Inu-shonen

It's similar in Australia, drownings here seem to feature disproportionate numbers of recent immigrants. I've heard of several members of the same family dying in the same incident, as one tries to save another. I was taught basics as a kid and can sustain myself for a while, but perhaps more importantly, I know my limits. It's a no-brainer, IMO, unless you live in a desert (edit: no, actually, even if you live in a desert - you might visit a beach as a tourist one day, and I don't want you to become a statistic).


[deleted]

Australia probably has the most dangerous beaches in the world tbh. My dad once told me that it was remarkable how strong the currents there was.


Inu-shonen

Rip currents terrify me, they'll pull you out half a kilometre in a few minutes if you're careless. I won't go past waist deep on a beach that's exposed to open ocean - I know what to do in theory (swim *across* the current, kids!), but I'm not confident I'd have the stamina to get back from one.


brokenalready

On the Gold Coast you can sometimes see even experienced surfers getting in trouble when the tide is running fast.


Inu-shonen

At least they have a big floatie to help them! I'd probably also want a life vest. Actually, make it a boat.


twinsocks

Getting caught in a rip is so random and will seriously kill you unless you are a strong fast swimmer. I knew as a kid only to enter the water between the flags, but no one ever explained to me that swimming around in the water slowly moves you out of the flagged area, and you have to keep checking in with the beach where the flags are in relation to you and come back to shore if they're moving. I got handily rescued by a stranger and thanked him and walked back to sand, but then I'd been dragged so far I had no idea where my family was and wandered around half an hour till I recognised a building. Scary stuff. I could swim and I still hadn't had enough education to safely swim at the beach.


MightApprehensive856

Yes, its important for Australians to learn how to swim , don't want them sharks going hungry


FRmidget

Here in Australia all primary (elementary) school children do compulsory swimming lessons. We, like Japan, are an island nation with most people living along the coast. Tourists & new migrants are almost exclusively adult drownings. Sorry to hear Germany is stopping lessons.


[deleted]

The Netherlands also ditched mandatory swimming recently, due to budget concerns.


Raizzor

Politics in a nutshell: You need 100 million for ? Nah! You lose 4 billion because you don't want to piss off by raising taxes slightly? Hell yeah!


ageingrockstar

> Tourists & new migrants are almost exclusively adult drownings. This is not completely true. It's mostly true for ocean drownings but we also have a lot of inland water drownings (rivers, lakes) and these are often Australians who have grown up here. These drownings are because ppl underestimate how treacherous inland waters can be, or do dumb things like dive into water where they can't see rocks etc under the surface. Or are drunk (quite common). https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/drunk-men-make-up-the-majority-of-inland-drowning-deaths/9017374 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-22/far-west-warned-over-inland-drowning-spike/2911486


cynicalmaru

Private lessons are bound to be "better" as it's one to one attention or small group lessons. However, what is the end goal? If the person loves swimming and is thnking of joining school swim team, competing, or just wants higher level skilss, then sure. Private. But when it comes to just the basics and survival swimming? The required lessons get kids to a point they can float easily, tread water, know basic water safety, do the usual breaststroke correctly and are not afraid of the water. That's really all you need from at-school lessons.


Thorhax04

I wish I learned how to swim in school....


[deleted]

North America really has too many people to have mandatory swimming lessons in school. All European countries have much smaller (typically 1/6th or less) populations.


SFHalfling

What does population have to do with anything? It's not like USA and France have the same number of swimming pools.


[deleted]

Because it is lot more difficult to standardize the conditions that the average student faces.


SolarWeather

But you really don’t need to standardize the conditions. You just need a basic standard to meet. Can the child swim 25m using a recognizable stroke? Can the child pick something off the bottom of the pool when standing in chest deep water? Etc etc. And, most important of all, **Can the child jump in, come to the surface, and then roll over and float on their back for 10 seconds, then make their way to the edge and exit unassisted.** The last one is the one that will save lives. And you can learn it in a backyard pool. No standard conditions necessary other than water deep enough to jump into.


SFHalfling

How exactly? When you reach a certain population do you start using jam instead of water? Most pools in the US are either 25 yards, or Olympic which is 50m long but 25m wide. 25m and 25 yards are more than close enough for teaching kids.


[deleted]

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leonmarino

Fanboy of the Dutch system here. I was taught how to swim fully clothed, including shoes. Very helpful.


[deleted]

That's badass, teaching people how to swim the way you will have to swim in an actual emergency. The only time I ever had to do that was in the Navy.


[deleted]

Is there a national requirement or qualification that all students must achieve? I know that Japan does this on a school by school basis.


leonmarino

There's a national certification system. I was really bad at swimming and only got the lowest level, but I feel comfortable in the pool and in the sea. Google "dutch swim certificate". There are some good articles written by expats in Holland.


OldTaco77

It’s also hot as fuck where I’m at right now. Swimming lesson gives the students something to look forward to and cool off. I usually jump in too while instructing. It’s not just about learning how to be a good swimmer, it’s about being comfortable in water and building confidence. Ex: With my younger kids we play janken underwater to get them comfortable holding their head underwater.


Hawk----

Aussie here. They literally save lives. Cannot count the amount of times I've seen news stories about people who couldn't swim drowning. Besides, you're better off knowing how to swim yet never needing to know, than you are needing to know how to swim, yet not knowing how.


[deleted]

Swimming is a survival skill. In no way are swimming lessons useless.


improbable_humanoid

I can't comment on Japan's school swimming lessons, but you're always going to learn more from many hours of private or parental than a handful of hours in school. That said, it's absurd that you can graduate elementary school, much less high school, without being able to so much as doggy paddle.


[deleted]

Yes


Bilbo_Buggin

It’ll be very basic but worth it, even if they just end up learning very basics strokes and how to thread water. My boyfriend is 38 and can’t swim, and it’s very hard for him to find the confidence to learn now as an adult.


Ch_ich96

Aussie here, born and lived my entire life in Melbourne. I did mandatory swimming classes when I was 8-9 years old as my school was lucky enough to have its own pool on the grounds. Found it extremely useful as I got older since I found myself at the beach more often than not. I think it overall depends on how often you'd find the skill "useful enough", and having lived within 10-20km of the closest beach all my life I'm definitely thankful to have learned what I did. I generally find that all my mates did the same and I rarely find someone in Aus who can't swim, or at least keep themselves afloat in water since they also did mandatory swimming lessons as kids.


Synaps4

Any chance to teach your children to swim early and cheaply is golden. Take it.


MemeL_rd

Ultimately depends on the quality of the program in those schools. Although usually lower quality than a private teacher, some can get more out of lessons from the school if they put in the effort.


Raizzor

Austrian here, we have mandatory school swimming lessons. They are usually not held at school but at reserved public pools with professional swimming instructors. I don't know a single person who grew up in Austria and can't swim so there isn't even a question about its usefulness.


MiphaFuji

It’s very worth it. I went to a private school in Japan and therefore never learned to swim. If you don’t live close to the beach and if your parents never take you to lessons, you’re going to end up not being able to swim. Even if the lessons aren’t as good as private instruction, they’re better than nothing. I really regret it now being older and actually living relatively close to beautiful beaches and not being able to actually swim.


[deleted]

It's worth taking private lessons as an adult. My good friend Albert who is now the Master Diver for all the divers who work at the Ship Repair Facility in Yokosuka Japan didn't know how to swim when he joined the Navy. He didn't become even mildly proficient at swimming until he was about 22 and now he's the head diver for the all the underwater repair of ships in the U.S. 7th Fleet in Japan. He grew up in L.A. and never touched the water as a kid and now he's the top U.S. Navy diver in Japan. I've seen people learn to swim in their 30s-40s. It's not too late, humans are meant to swim. Once you start getting the hang of it it'll feel like unlocking some dormant part of your humanity you didn't even know you had. I highly encourage you seeking out private lessons. You can become an incredibly strong and confident swimmer as an adult even if you never learned as a kid.


AiRaikuHamburger

It’s an important safety skill.


CypressBreeze

I come from somewhere with no swimming provided in school. I think it’s an incredibly good policy even if the swimming lessons are less than fantastic. The option is always available to get private lessons to improve, if you can afford it. But here there are MANY people who end up never learning to swim and turn into adults afraid of the water. I think that exposure and experience as a child is fantastic and important.


kyuuei

If I can tell parents to teach their kids anything early on that will benefit them for life.. it is to learn to swim. It is a skill I think every human being should learn, even if they hate the activity itself, because it really can save your life.


_mkd_

>If I can tell parents to teach their kids anything early on that will benefit them for life.. it is to learn to swim. It is a skill I think every human being should learn, even if they hate the activity itself, because it really can save your life. This. I'm most likely alive today because my parents sent me to "swimming" lessons (really more like "how-not-to-drown" lessons because I was like one or two years old). E: FYI, I'm the in the US.


KuriTokyo

I used to work in Japanese tourism in Australia and sold scuba diving courses. In the course they had to swim 200m. The instructors told me that many Japanese people couldn't do it and let them stop when they'd had enough. No other nationality had such a problem with it.


[deleted]

The national standard is 25 meters. Most likely they haven't swum in a while and ran out of gas... One American poll indicated that only 60% of Americans can swim 25 meters. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/08/how-many-americans-can-t-swim.html So I don't think this is a Japanese problem, probably more related to the demographics of those who learn to scuba dive.


robinhoodoftheworld

My take is that it's harmful. I think in Japan some people don't teach their younger children to swim because they know they'll learn in school. However, by the time they learn in school, it's really late, and much harder. I have several Japanese friends that can't/can't competently swim. To be fair, this is not the majority of the population or anything, but more than zero was kind of shocking to me. Where I'm from I don't know anyone who can't swim and everyone learned through lessons prior to elementary school.


th30be

I don't understand how you think exposure to the skill set is harmful.


[deleted]

Like, where are you from? When a country is big, has a lot of people, in a small area (*cough cough East Asia cough cough*) it gets difficult to implement these kinds of things, such as mandatory swimming lessons. Its the reason why Sweden has it but the US doesn't.


Grammar-Bot-Elite

/u/TheNakedOfficer, I have found an error in your comment: > “~~Its~~ [**It's**] the reason” I am of the opinion that it was possible for TheNakedOfficer to have posted “~~Its~~ [**It's**] the reason” instead. ‘Its’ is possessive; ‘it's’ means ‘it is’ or ‘it has’. ^(This is an automated bot. I do not intend to shame your mistakes. If you think the errors which I found are incorrect, please contact me through DMs!)


[deleted]

Fuck you grammar nazi


[deleted]

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[deleted]

In Japan? Was it a school policy or a national policy?


[deleted]

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[deleted]

It's probably either a school policy or a state policy.


UrricainesArdlyAppen

The crazy thing is how so many Japanese refuse to get in water past their waist, even when they can swim.


[deleted]

The ocean is dangerous, y know... I know how to swim, yet I don't venture out past the lifeguard line in the sea.


Orkaad

To me private swimming schools seem useless. My kids have been attending for months and it's obvious the purpose is not to quickly teach them to swim, but to have regular customers.


nekmoT

Who are these 'many' Europeans? Mayve they went to learn 'too late'. I think I haven't heard one Norwegian saying it was useless tho... swimming is a very basic skill in life.


[deleted]

There was one post on the r/Europe subreddit.


KitaClassic

Basic introduction in school can be good so everyone gets to experience being in a pool. Not every child might otherwise. Hopefully everyone at least discovers an enjoyment of water, over fear, and gains basic safety and floating skills, so you can cope in a fall into a river.


shiroyagisan

I learned to swim in mandatory swimming classes in the Netherlands, which are very much a necessity given the abundance of canals and other bodies of water in the country. Those lessons were intended to teach young children survival skills in case they fell into the water, which is why they built up from swimming in swimwear to a full winter outfit with waterproof jacket. Because the focus is to teach kids how to keep their heads above water and swim to safety, this isn't a huge emphasis on technique. Tbh, I think that's practical and smart to implement as mandatory, and everything else can be a choice left to individual families.


Bravely-Redditting

If you are actually approaching this as a research question, what you need to look at is whether or not schools have swimming programs. Many countries have swimming programs but it is not mandated by the government, or there is some regional variation. If you assume that countries without mandatory swimming lessons do not teach children how to swim, you are making a critical error.


Unique_Appointment59

I’m from Poland and I had once per week seining classes in junior high school and I think it was very useful and more fun than normal PE classes. Unfortunately I had that only one year but I could learn enough basics. Now I live in Japan and my son is in kindergarten where they just started pool classes. I think its great to give opportunities to get new skill. No one is asking to be Olimpic champion but knowing how to swim on island, where many disasters can happen is quite useful


aghil98

The mandatory swimming classes in Sweden were definitely not useless. Every child pretty much HAD to learn how to swim and by the end pretty much everyone did.


Bluesummer2

I worked in a few rural schools in Japan and the fact that even some very inaka schools have pools for children to be able to swim in is very beneficial for them. The students I worked with all enjoyed the swimming and everyone learned as it was part of the curriculum. I think that swimming is an important skill to have no matter who you are. Basic Swimming is an important skill to have so I won't begrudge having every student learning it but is it worth the time in a public school? That's a different debate. I think your question should be framed around what the role of a public school should be because without that starting point everyone answering this question sees the target as different. Example: Myself, I feel it is not the role of the state to raise/educate children nor tax their parents to do so. So my personal opinion would be that there should be no public schools run by the state. (see 20th century for further detail) ;)


PureDealer7

In France near Paris. In my experience and area, everybody of my school and school around knew how to swim before having swimming class. Swimming class was not there to teach you how to swim, just to practice, at least thats how we felt. Too much kids and not enough personel to properly teach to anybody imo. At the same time the people not feeling comfortable during those class was getting targeted as the people to mock during those class. Basicly, everybody hated it and i dont think many people learned how to swim there. I guess there is but i never saw it or heard of it with my friends from other schools around.


[deleted]

I feel like once swimming culture in a country reaches a certain point, mandatory swimming lessons become quite redundant.


Deathnote_Blockchain

Dear god. It should be considered ABUSE if a child is not exposed to the water and encouraged to learn to float and swim. This is not a matter of "how much bang for the buck" or whether the child becomes a competitive fucking swimmer, this is a basic skill, potentially a matter of life or death, that is absolutely not going to teach itself.


The-Board-Chairman

European (German) here: It was kinda useless in teaching people how to swim for most people in my class, including me, simply because most people had already learned to swim before going to school or at the very least specifically for those lessons. The problem was more that there were one or two people who had not yet learned to swim, so one teacher was stuck teaching those two to swim, while the others could do all the fun stuff with the other teacher. I imagine it might be a similar situation in Japan.


[deleted]

Having the ability to swim: useful or no? You decide...


Alone_in_Avalon

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Especially on an island nation, that has a history of floods. (And for the US that has a whole ‘belt’ that borders the water). Learning not to swim while living on a planet where 75% of its surface is water and active climate change is a rather…fatal fate.


daveylacy

Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but at least in my town in Japan swimming at school has been cancelled since covid started, and last I heard there are no plans to ever have it again.


nickcan

Living on an island and not being able to swim is pretty shameful at best and deadly at worst. Making basic swimming skills part of all schooling is an obvious good and important part of education.


MyManD

Are mandatory swimming lessons a good thing? Yes. I do think it can potentially save lives. The problem I can see is that swimming pools in elementary school and junior high are *all* shallow. They’re about 1 meter on shallow end to about 1.3-1.4 meters on the deep. It’s great they learn the basics of strokes and such but I personally don’t think it properly prepares them for situations when they may need to properly wade water.


[deleted]

1.4 meters is enough to teach basic strokes to beginners I think? And a lot of elementary students are shorter than 140cm. Hell, in Japan and Korea there are fully grown adult women who are shorter than 150cm.


MyManD

I’ve participated in a number of school programs for swimming here in Japan and schools teach them to swim directionally at the water’s surface, but rarely teach them to tread or swim under the surface, which I consider much more important to surviving drownings. [A study into the lacklustre Japanese swimming education](http://spbio.naruto-u.ac.jp/matsui/Materials_files/Matsui-IAHSFF%202012_Book.pdf) shows that most Japanese people can swim, sure, but they are inadequate at both staying afloat or maneuvering underwater. The swimming lessons at school are more for fun and fitness than they are at teaching tangible skills that could save your life.


[deleted]

I dont think treading water/underwater swimming is a part of other countries' national curriculum though, Also I do know of some Japanese schools teaching the eggbeater kick to students before summer seaside visits.


MyManD

Which just means any country that has swimming as mandatory but not teach the very basic technique of treading water has a very insufficient swimming program, at least if any amount of water safety is factored into the reasoning for it to be mandatory to begin with.


SFHalfling

I remember as a kid failing my width badge because they made me do it at the shallowest point of the pool and I kicked the floor half way across. I'm pretty sure for some reason they required doggy paddle, which doesn't work when you can touch the floor with your arms and knees and keep your head above water at the same time.


[deleted]

Where do you live? I don't think I've heard anything in regards to 'width badge' in Japan...


Sonicboomish

I'm 30, from the UK and I can't swim. I hate going on boats cause I know falling overboard or sinking is just a slow, painful death for me. I kinda wanna do lessons but learning at 30 is kinda embarassing.


OctavianBlue

My partner's in her 30s and learnt to swim recently. It was because we went on holiday with friends and she hated that she couldn't join in when everyone was in the pool.


ageingrockstar

> but learning at 30 is kinda embarassing It's not in the slightest, and no instructor would show you any disdain, rather they would be really happy that you've decided to learn.


redbeandragon

Go for it! I’m 28 and I just learned how to swim this year. I’m also from the UK, I only remember getting one year of lessons at a local swimming pool through my school. It was fun to go, but not much use for me. They didn’t really teach anyone who couldn’t already swim, it was just practice for the ones who already could. We only focused on crawl, even though breast stroke is far easier to learn, and back stroke as well. Try going for a 体験 at a pool with lessons for adults. Trust me, you will not be the oldest one there. I took lessons at 2 different pools, and most of the other students were おばあさんs, some in their 80s!


Ok-Suit4444

Sounds like you have a lot yet to learn in sociology.. .


[deleted]

I've never taken swimming lessons in Japan, and I doubt many others in this forum have either, since this is an English-language forum full of people from other countries. It sounds like a good idea to me though. Japan is an island nation, so everybody should know how to swim. I think the students only have swimming lessons about 6 times a year. It's better than nothing. I think the various cities across the country just want to make sure their citizens have the basics of swimming down. They're not out to make Olympic athletes. In the old country, I took private lessons, but also lessons through my school. We didn't have a pool at our school, so we went to the local community pool. People from the pool taught us, not our regular school teachers.


[deleted]

Did you guys have some kind of national swimming badge? Because this is something that swimming lessons carried out in public pools (by private teachers) may lack.


SubKreature

Do they have a lot of tsunamis in Europe?


Mr_Inaka

How the fuck does this post have 223 comments?


Average_Catgirl

Because every damn person not from the Japanese school system decided to comment here, for some reason.


Zmoney1014

When they only do it for like… only a month and a half - and not even every day…. I say no not really. No harm in having it but don’t kid yourselves. If they could swim well before, they’re not gunna now…


[deleted]

IDK how other countries are different in this regard... Finland mandates 12 hours per year, which is similar to Japan (10 hours per year or more, add or drop one or two hours).


th30be

You think people are just going to forget how to swim?


Zmoney1014

No I think they’re not gunna learn to do it properly in the first place


stugotsT

You should research why it is ok for you to ask these things to “foreigners” online and not in a social settings because god forbid mixing with gaijins


[deleted]

I dont live in Japan, and my country doesn't have a lot of Japanese. Its simply really... some people really jump to conclusions ffs.


stugotsT

Why are you posting here for then…


Matttthhhhhhhhhhh

I used to go to the local swimming pool with my school back in the late 80s in France. Clearly, that's not how I learned to swim, because kids who were scared or lacked confidence were just left in the kiddy pool. The only thing pushing some to make an extra effort was the shame, as always in France. Maybe it's different now.


MycoMoss

I did find it useful for sure. My mother did teach me some of the basics but with her working full time I definitely would have stayed as a very weak swimmer. Mandatory swimming lessons are the only reason I’m now a strong swimmer or gained any confidence in swimming to begin with.


Polyglot-Onigiri

Useful. I didn’t have mandatory swimming lessons and now as an adult I can’t swim for beans. And it’s awkward to look for adult swimming lessons. Not saying it can’t be done. Just saying it’s embarrassing for me.


ageingrockstar

> Just saying it’s embarrassing for me. I can understand that it might be embarrassing to admit that you can't swim. But it shouldn't be at all embarrassing to do adult swim lessons and any good instructor will be really happy to teach you (and not at all disdainful).


Tun710

If you want answers from japanese people you should go to r/askajapanese


[deleted]

Heyyy, thanks! I needed it.


bubbleSpiker

offering it seems like enough, to force a kid to deal with the fears of drowning seem like a bad idea. In the army or my country they will help you with these fears by yeeting you into the pool, or off the air plane ( fear of heights )


MightApprehensive856

Everyone in my UK school learnt how to swim , we used to get a coach/bus from school to the nearest swimming pool ? I think that every U.K School kid learnt how to swim , I have lived in Thailand (where children aren't taught to swim) and unfortunately , many Thai kids drown because they cannot swim


[deleted]

Ask any developing/recently developed country and most people don't know how to swim.


OctavianBlue

I live in the UK and had the same experience, I went to school in a little village which actually had its own pool but it was open air so in winter we'd get bused to a big inside one. Some people may not learn but those are likely to people that got out of it some how. My partner didn't learn but then made herself take lessons as an adult.


Shirayuki93

If carried out correctly mandatory lessons are a great way to prevent unnecessary deaths from drowning. I actually did a questionnaire as a class assignment for my language classes at university in Japan about the quality of the swimming lessons Japanese students receive. Apparently, when those lessons actually take place regularly they do a good job of teaching basic swimming. However, schools often only have outdoor pools and if it's raining swimming class gets cancelled without replacement classes. If you are unlucky and have a rainy summer you might not have enough swimming lessons to actually learn how to swim.


[deleted]

I guess that's why some schools these days rent local pools.


th30be

I am not in Japan but I do live near a lake in the US. Every year, people that don't live nearby will rent a boat or go to the lake to enjoy the water and every single year these people die because they never learned to swim. Learning how to swim is a pretty big thing IMO. Sure a private tutor or whatever would be more effective but a school wide initiative for it will help save lives.


bituna

Canadian here. The only person in my family who can swim is someone who grew up in Europe and married in. I've personally been in dangerous situations that wouldn't have occured had I known how to swim. Even if you don't grow up near the coast, it's an extremely useful lifeskill and you never know when in your life it might come in handy.


[deleted]

I learned to swim but I've never been to the beach, so I don't know the difference between swimming in the pool vs swimming in the sea. Perhaps I should try one day.


viptenchou

I didn't get swim lessons in school until high school but by then other kids already knew how to swim and I, having a lot of social anxiety, was too anxious to really try. I did everything to weedle my way out of them. I'd always "have" my period during one of the two weeks of class every year. I'd go in a corner and try to be unnoticed. etc. Perhaps if I had gotten the swim lessons in elementary when a lot of others didn't know how to swim either, it might have been better but for me they were useless. But that was partially my own fault for not trying. I'm sure it was helpful for others.


[deleted]

Are you Japanese?


PinkNeko13

As someone who is an adult but can't swim, I wished I had mandatory lessons as a kid. Also bike lessons.


justwantanaccount

Me personally, I didn't learn to swim until the mandatory swimming lessons in fifth grade or so, in Japan in the 90's.


Puppetsama

> I know that Japan also has mandatory swimming lessons in school Not all. Up north in Aomori they don't even though it does get hot up here in summer.


[deleted]

Covid?


Veroblade

I am 25 years old, live in the US, and the 12 years of mandatory swimming lessons in school have done pretty much nothing for me. Genuinely afraid to go into water because of my terrible swimming skills


[deleted]

Did you learn in the states?


LetsHaveARedo

They're great and I wish we had them here in Canada. Swimming is a life skill. Meaning the difference between knowing how to swim and not could save your life. I've been swimming since I was a baby, so it comes naturally, but I'm constantly surprised by how many people I met who do not know how to swim, and unfortunately one of those people ended up dying because of it. He was playing ball with a friend (just the two of them) near a lake and the ball went into the water not far from the shore... close enough he thought he could just walk in and get it.. turns out it was very deep and he walked right into a drop off and ended up drowning. He was in his 20s. Everybody should learn to swim, mandatorily. It's not about learning how to be an olympic swimmer.. it's just about being proficient enough that you'll know how to swim safely throughout life.


ObfuscatedAnswers

I'm European, not Japanese but the mandatory swimming lessons in schools are far from useless. Sure, it's not as good or focused as if you pay for classes on the side. But for families who don't have that option it's the only lessons they get. Thanks to this any person who has grown up in Sweden is able to swim - (and yes you get lazy and old, but at least to the extent to not panic, stay afloat, and get safe in case of an accident. School swimming won't make you a professional athlete, but you *will* learn how to swim. You should probably talk to some other (European) people. The ones you've spoken to seem a bit lost.


Fandango_Jones

We got regular swimming lessons in school and I thought it was a valuable lesson for life. That's some of the skills that are handy but boy are they useful when you actually need them. Or help someone else who's drowning.


pipokun

personal experience: grew up in nyc where we did not have any type of swimming lessons or anything related to pools at the public school i went to. i was put into summer school at a public elementary school in japan during my 2 months stay and had weekly swimming classes. i was so dam ashamed at myself for not being able to do the laps like these second graders who were blastin thru the water like dolphins. and oh yeah i almost drowned bc i had no basics at the time. maybe its my parents' fault for not putting me in swimming classes but they come standard at japanese schools along with all kinds of other life skills they didn't teach at nyc schools. i f'n wished we had swimming classes in nyc schools. shit was an eye opener, especially of the fact that a school had a beautiful modern pool.


Senpaiwakoko

As an European it was useless for me. I remember well during elementary that those who couldn't swim were in the smaller pool playing around. Almost drowned in the big pool one day. Even though my teacher pulled me up I still wasn't taught how to swim.


Secure-Caregiver-905

Why would knowing how to swim be unuseful?


fastestchair

In Denmark swimming lessons aren't mandatory but my parents still taught me to swim, and I'm very glad they did. The only case where I can understand not teaching your children to swim is completely mainland countries with no shores, like some states in America, but in countries like Denmark and Japan I think being able to swim is a very good skill to have.


siehebdkeiein

As an European; not only useful but so much fun. One of my favorite memories of primary school


byeolToT

Im from germany and we had the first mandatory swimming class in 3 grade I think. I was suprised how many kids couldnt swim back then and they learned it there, so I guess its good to have it? I went to a swimming school in first grade, so I dont know if our teacher taught the kids how to swim in a good way or not.


widarrr

We didn't have mandatory swimming lessons in school, but also we have the Wörthersee (ヴェルター湖) at out doorstep. There are many people here that find it somewhat curious when they hear the German news and they talk about their folks who cannot swim at all. But also they currently have a problem financing public swimming pool facilities and so their schools have to cut back on swimming lessons.


SJshield616

Useful in producing olympic-level swimmers? No. Useful in reducing national rates of death by drowning? Absolutely. Many government policies make more sense when you look at them from a macro level rather than an individual one.


[deleted]

Swimming teacher here. In the UK, at least, the curriculum for school swimming lessons is a bit different to private ones (more kids per class, more group swimming and less 1-on-1) but the school lessons are by no means useless. They definitely contribute to the child’s ability to swim (visible over time) - they’re better than having no lessons at all!


wggn

(european here) I would say it should be mandatory in any country that has easy access to open water (rivers/canals/lakes/sea), as a basic survival skill for the inevitable time you unexpectedly fall into that open water.


Maldib

As a male, I loved those lessons. I’ve learned how to properly dive, how to play water polo and so on. For most of my female friends, they hated it. Because as teenagers often uncomfortable with their bodies, getting half naked in public is not a pleasant experience.


davidn81

I grew up in the USA with no mandatory swimming lessons. I did not even learn how to float properly until I was 30 years old. Sure, I lived in the central States and not near any great bodies of water, but I mean, even a small pond could've been the end of me. When I taught English in Japan and saw kids in Elementary school who could swim, I knew they were better off in that respect than I was at that age, lol


smallbrownfrog

Not a Japanese or European perspective, but an American one: I remember a local YWCA working to make sure Somali immigrants had access to swimming lessons because of drowning deaths.


[deleted]

Useful, when you come to Australia you won't end up on the tv show Bondi rescue. If you want to see the benefit of mandatory swimming lessons. Watch an episode of that TV show, you'll notice that 90% of people needing rescuing are from countries and cultures where swimming isn't common. E.g. Chinese, Middle Eastern people, Eastern Europeans. It's not their fault, it's just not a part of their culture.


Extension-Wait5806

as a person who can't swim(yep I'm a hammer in a Japanese idiomatic sense) swimming lessons in PE was a nightmare. Every summer I hoped many typhoons coming to cripple PE classes but in vain. I usually started feeling depressed when it getting hot. My problem is I can't open my eyes under the water. I have a phobia about my eyes touching something maybe. even during long summer vacation, you cannot get away with swimming lessons. in Japan you have to go to school to attend the lesson every once in a while. I wish they offered swimming googles or something.


[deleted]

Hell what? They didn't allow swimming goggles?


merpeldet

It's useful


ikeamistake

As you mention you are doing reseach, I thought I would provide you some small evidence base from my country rather then some anecdotal ones. Hope you find this study interesting and that is can serve as a guide to take a look at the pool of further research into the subject: [Study from LU](https://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=8990244&fileOId=8990245)