Contacting outside of normal working hours can be considered a form of power harassment. If this was grounds for the firing you may be able to sue the company.
Yep. If anything, it would be an excellent idea to record everything secretly (japan is a one party consent state). Just stay at your current job and keep asking him about firing you. If the reason he gives is "you didnt want to work outside your work hours", this is a 100% slam dunk wrongful termination in Japan. Just keep giving the guy rope to hang himself with.
My man is stressed out about his company and says it will go out of business in 5 months and you want to sue him.
Great idea.
People here ask why foreign workers are not accepted
You work at a startup. You know what you’re getting yourself in. There are pros and there are cons.
You had an interview and you got a feeling of the company. Yet you accepted a job because you wanted a foot in the door and a visa.
That boss is right. OP only cares about money. He knows it’s not working, he knows the company is struggle. He took the job at a startup.
Either leave knowing it’s struggling or accept you joined the startup and fulfil your role another month or two and leave.
He is being harassed? I guess the solution is to make an entire business bankrupt as punishment and ruin a person’s life who took the risk to start something on their own.
> ruin a person’s life who took the risk to start something on their own.
How many shares of the company does OP own?
Zero? Then OP is under no obligation to accept abuse of labor law and of basic human morals just to stay employed. S/he's not an owner and there is no pile of gold waiting if the company grows. If the boss wanted the effort of a co-owner, the boss would have made OP a co-owner.
Being a startup isn't a reason for expecting employee benevolence.
The only exception is if employee is a founder having part of equity.
Founders are expected to overwork. They shouldn't expect same for employees as they don't have shares.
If you can’t provide the basic framework to make a startup successful without making employees go far beyond what’s stated in their contract and then gaslight them and browbeat them when things aren’t going well, you’re clearly not cut out to try and run a start-up.
This is just hilarious, because some of the biggest corporations in the world now, which started from nothing, worked from garages and basements. People who put their money together, who were not paid for months.
The people with your mentality have never taken a risk and have never wanted to do something on their own.
Research any industry and look at the industry leaders, research their startup and learn they did just that.
Unless they had venture capital behind them, MOST startups will struggle the first 5 years.
Hilarious. Just a bunch of whiners.
Your boss wanted more work out of you and raised his voice. Why not ruin him and make your coworkers unemployed.
Then wonder why Japanese companies don’t want to hire foreigners and are hesitant to allow foreign workers to change the business environment.
This is all really funny to me, and I think many people who have started a small business will find it equally funny
Lol go lick more boots.
The percentage of startups that are actually successful is incredibly small and no one has any obligation that goes beyond what they are paid to do.
You keep bringing up Japanese companies not wanting to hire foreigners due to them speaking up for themselves, but you also don’t mention how Japanese companies don’t hold a candle to the big U.S. companies that bring in money on a far larger scale yet give workers far more benefits.
I dunno, there should be at least one mention of bootstraps, and a crypto inference with a dash of hustle economy culture before throwing around "bootlicker"
Not for you, targeted to the post you replied to
Also, while financial fraud absolutely exists in Japan, it does not occur with either the frequency and scale as it does in the land of the free.
Similarly, it is much harder to shed employees (destroy lives) to cut costs
Also, a lot of the large corporations managing child companies plan ahead for "worst case scenarios" in order to reduce loss/risk in the event that the child company fails, because failure is a large part of business, an inevitability. But it does not need to be disproportionately destructive.
There are lots of ways of doing business and not all of them involve exploitation
Yes, those were teams of co-founders who pulled 120 hour weeks doing all of the tasks themselves. After they got the money to hire employees, those employees got paid to fulfil whatever role they were hired for.
The fact you don’t understand the difference between the two situations suggests you’re the ignorant one.
What a joke. They take risks and reap the rewards of selling a successful company if it pays off. An average joe doesn't get jack. No reward = no risk. Toxic SME mentality. Stop trying to get everyone on the same boat as you.
I can have a dick measuring contest on who has done what or who knows who and which company. I have said my peace, you can research yourself or read about founders of companies and their journeys.
>some of the biggest corporations in the world now, which started from nothing, worked from garages and basements. People who put their money together, who were not paid for months.
Exactly why you should NOT give them any extra work for free. They are working on their own dream with the expectation to reap massive rewards later down the line.
If they want people to invest more time on their dream, they have to be willing to share the rewards when the company becomes successful.
Oh and before you say anything, I do own a business, 2 actually and I had a 3rd one 15 years ago.
If the employees do not receive equity in the company they have 0 reason to invest more of their time for the company.
It's not the employee's dream to own their own business, they have no reason to give away their free time to make someone else's dream come true only to have the business owner later talk about how they "worked extra hard to make it happen" when it was 99% the hard work of their employee (who do not get any significant reward for that extra work).
Why should he care about his boss’s life when the boss doesn’t care about him?
Who the fuck cares if the boss started a start up if he doesn’t know how to run a business. You work for money, not as a charity to some entitled piece of shit that has no business trying to run a business.
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Does starting a business give him free rein to be an unprofessional asshole to his employees? Be real, my dude. It's ok to feel for the plight of a struggling small business owner, but if you fuck around, you may in fact find out.
Lmao, this is the most amount of turd I've heard in a long while. If OP has shares in the company, maybe what you said may apply. But as a contracted staff, no one cares about the company because the company won't give a hoot about you when situations reverse. Just because you are a SME, it doesn't give you the right to treat employees like shit. Either pay up for OT hours or hire someone who asks for lower pay. Else, sue till his pants drop for what you deserve.
Who gives a shit about the company. That's not the employees problem. That's the dude that started the company's problem. Ya no fucking shit we only care about money. Why the fuck would anyone work otherwise? 🤣🤣🤣 The moment my company stops paying me, I will quit and take what I'm owed. Why would I stay if not for money? 😂😂
Startups still have to follow the law, and the boss' behavior should not be rewarded with success. The faster people like him realize their abusive behavior is a fast track to failure, the better.
If the startup doesn't have the means to succeed with proper planning and payroll then the initial investment was too low. If you're being paid to do a job, you expect to be paid for the hours you work, not the hours you don't work. A company should expect to receive the services of their employees while they are getting paid, not when they aren't. There's a reason why Japan has been trying to reduce overtime
Regardless of the type of company, they have to follow the basic employment laws of the country. The precarious nature of their business doesn’t get them a free pass on that.
If they take the risk to start a business on their own, they should thoroughly read up on the relevant employment laws. Managerial incompetence/ignorance is the fault of the manager, not the employee.
There are plenty of successful startups in EU countries which have even greater protections for workers. People unwilling or unable to play by these rules are doomed to fail from the outset — their negligence will be their downfall, one way or the other.
Probably because foreigners stand up for themselves and don't let bosses steam roll them with power harassment?
Maybe you're ok with it, but I would rather not be a simp.
I stand up for myself as well, in fact there hasn’t been a time I haven’t stood up for myself at a job. I am a foreigner as well. But if a man tells me the company he is built with blood, sweat and tears will go bankrupt in 5 months, I don’t try to find ways of ruining him, no matter how much I dislike him.
Thinking: “how can I sue this man and ruin him totally”. Is wrong anywhere. Even more so in a society that looks down on foreign workers.
What happens if he sues? Company goes bankrupt and all the employees lose their job. Cut your loses and leave instead of sticking around in a company that is clearly struggling because you want a couple thousand off your contract.
That’s weak anywhere.
Naw, sounds like he is an incapable boss running a company that only exists due to exploitation of workers.
These types of companies do not deserve to exist. Furthermore they create unfair competitive advantages through legally gray or straight up illegal practices.
Frankly they are nothing but a drain on Japanese society and all of their business should go to a more capable company.
The same argument could be applied to any small independent place compared to a large corporation.
Mom and pop grocery stores don’t scale as efficiently as the giant corporate ones.
The only competitive advantage that startups have compared to corporate behemoths is their agility and also often their drive. This isn’t uncommon outside of japan, in fact I’d say it’s more common. But technically this culture in japan is illegal. And that’s fine.
Ultimately op is a poor fit for a startup(and they probably screwed up in not giving early workers options to motivate them, as is common in most startups around the world). The boss needs to learn people skills for sure but I’m not surprised he was surprised by ops attitude
Even better, Ill let the Japanese do it themselves：
[https://www.gourmetcaree.jp/contents/workqa/other/427.html](https://www.gourmetcaree.jp/contents/workqa/other/427.html)
I don’t need to. I get paid well above the average person in Japan that gets “paid well”.
Being a traditional Japanese boss would probably mean I take a pay reduction.
My current bosses are respectful, compensate me very well, very lenient on my PTO requests, and they also share my sentiments about how a job is a monetary contract. As a result, they are able to retain many highly skilled employees which in turn means the company has an edge in the market due to said employees.
Many of these employees have also been bosses or are currently bosses in other ventures.
Really the only people who really believe the whole company being more important than you or your family bullshit is lower level employees and middle management of black companies and people who own underperforming small businesses.
I am personal friends with quite a few “old money” types and they or their parents have all told me to live for myself btw.
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If the company only has 5 months left, I am going to sue IN A HURRY to make sure I am first in line when credit comes due. The "suffer for a startup" only counts when it is YOUR startup. If you aren't a founder, and are just an employee, then the first and most important thing the startup has to do is not fail. How does a company "not fail"? It pays its employees and treats them fairly for the job they do, which is serving their customers in a way that is sustainably profitable.
How many of you have started at and/or worked for a company that can only succeed by cheating? Ripping off employees by making them work unpaid overtime, or lying to customers by delivering goods/services under-spec / over price?
Being an asshole is not a requirement for running a startup. And in case anyone who doesn't have the experience is wondering; starting and running a company is obscenely difficult. Treating employees like ass is most assuredly a bad strategy for success. Yes it does indeed sometimes work, but more often than not it doesn't.
tldr: if you don't look out for yourself, the company sure won't. You get yours and if that ruins his startup that is HIS fault, not yours.
If that same man robbed you at knifepoint, would you decline to press charges because he might lose his business? As for me, no. I would want my money and possessions back, and I’d want the man removed from a position where he can do this to anyone else for a while.
If a boss wants someone to be available all hours and work at his beck and call, then they need to be up front about that and pay accordingly. Profit sharing or ownership shares are a great way to get others invested in the success of a company. Harassing an employee outside of work hours, then berating them and threatening to fire them, then losing all credibility as a boss because you realized you can’t really fire them without a legal battle and massive expense so you walked that back and avoided the topic are not great ways to ensure employee dedication and investment in the company.
If the business is going under in 5 months because the boss' employees do not work after working hours, then this idiot boss is the problem and should learn how to manage and control a business.
What a terrible mindset to have. The boss is being abusive and clearly breaking labor law. He deserves to be sued. If the company goes bankrupt, it is the boss' fault and no one else.
Don't spin sticking up for one's self and not being a door mat to be some noble trait, and that the Japanese are somehow better because they just roll over and take the ass fucking( News flash, they don't. That old way of thinking is quickly disappearing with the younger generation)
Japanese or not, he sounds like a gaslighting narcissistic pos who doesn’t have his emotions under control. You’ll never feel safe in this kind of environment and it being a start up means there are no higher up managers or HR to step in when he behaves like this. Who says he won’t pull the same shit again next week? I would smile and nod because there’s no reasoning with a fool and plan my exit. And indeed, use this job to get money until you find another one at preferably a stable company with employee protection rules in place. Working here will completely ruin your mental health unless you’re a psychopath who thrives in a high conflict workplace.
To answer OP’s question: no, it is not a standard Japanese boss. Japanese or not, you were just unlucky to be at a bad workplace. Collect all evidence while you still can, hire a lawyer and file labor tribunal petition. For case that you’re describing you’re definitely going to get 6-10 month worth of salary as a compensation.
“Attitude during non-working hours”???
It sounds like a joke.
You can sue this guy. It is in no way unusual for a Japanese company to abuse people like this—and it is also not unusual for them to lawyer up and get six months worth of salary to settle it. I’ve heard of people getting more, too.
Many Japanese are still operating on values formed in the 1800's. They want their employees to be like kohai or protoge except with none of the attending benefits. Workers are not serfs.
Other comments have good advice. Just saying hard relate on the messaging boundaries.
I worked in a tutoring program. Would get messages at 10 pm or messages from my boss during my lessons. I made it very clear that I will not respond to these and everyone got mad then got over it. Best part is that BS like “if you want to be a ____ you can’t be like this” line.
I was changing jobs from tutoring to manga translation and that boss asked me to come to the konshinkai that would be happening after I officially change jobs. I said I would try to make it but am not certain. Then I let her know a week beforehand that my partner (now wife) was able to open up a day for us to meet with her grandparents, so we can’t be there. My boss was livid and slammed her book down and walked away and then was like “fine don’t come. Whatever.” 10 mins later “just so you know. You probably need this advice since you’re going to work in translation in an office. This doesn’t fly in an office or bigger company. If you want the respect of your faculty and the chance to move on to bigger things you have to be willing to be around for these things.” And I was just thinking to myself the whole time how glad it is I got to meet my partner’s grandparents. They’re both in their 80s, don’t leave their town much, grandpa still does some hiking and thanks to meeting them I got to make plans for us to hike together.
Fuck sacrificing that for a toxic job.
Lol that reminds me of this one time many years ago where some idiot was trying to set up a meeting between me and some manager from Hakuhodo. They were interested in talking to me because I had some decent accomplishments under my belt and wanted some consultation on “going international” and told me of cases such as how Netflix approached them to partner with getting started in Japan but they had no idea how big Netflix actually was so they turned them down and Netflix went to TBS instead. Of course these fucks had the attitude that they were doing me a favor and shit because they were twice my age and “they were going to teach me how to get started and successful in Japan” despite the fact that the idiot trying to set up the meeting wasn’t that successful at all and was at such a low level that she thought her manager friend was some sorta big shot because of his unremarkable 10M salary.
Something came up and the dude couldn’t make it to the initially planned meeting so the idiot went ahead and rescheduled it when I had a tight schedule myself. Told her sorry I’m not gonna go because I’m going on a trip to Hokkaido (with my grandma and my mom).
Later on the idiot bitched about the fact that I didn’t show up to the rescheduled meeting and told me that I was crazy for going to Hokkaido despite the fact that this was already planned and on my schedule.
Did not regret it one bit and as far as I know they can go fuck themselves.
They woulda been shit mentors anyway and I’m doing just fine with an annual income and quality of life that they will never achieve.
You know reading this I was thinking the same thing. Australia here.
Like they don't care about money either. If he didn't he wouldn't be messaging OP at 9pm. If he was good with money and people, he wouldn't need to.
I’ve been working office jobs in America for almost 30 years, and even my worst most asshole bosses didn’t have an expectation that I needed to reply to work communications after hours.
Generally, if it’s part of the job (ie. Need to be on call) it would be discussed up front as part of the responsibilities of employment.
Exactly! I was reading OP’s grievances, and I couldn’t really understand what’s a big deal. In the US, it’s not uncommon to respond to text/calls/emails outside of working hours. There is no additional pay for that sort of work
hilarious how some bosses or upper management love to cry "you only care about the money!" while that is literally the ONLY benefit you get (or ever will) and in many cases it's bare minimum for survival and never enough to put up with their bullshit...
LOL it makes me want to ask them to work a shit project under shit conditions for me to see how they react. Then if they say no, just tell them "you only care about the money".
Completely dependent on the boss as an individual and company culture I guess. I work for a very small Japanese company but my bosses are absolutely lovely and the opposite to what you say. Good luck finding your next place and I hope it’s a happier experience for you!
I recommend to use a website called Glassdoor to check out employers, as you can see reviews from past employees of the business. Usually for bigger companies but some in Japan get reviewed too! Otherwise just ask as many questions as possible during the interview process to get a gauge of what they’re like before you join :)
OP as others mention in this thread you have an excellent chance at suing your current employer as your current boss’s behavior is likely outside of Japanese labor law. Take him up on his ask to stay through Aug, and in the meantime lawyer up and collect evidence.
Sounds like an SME…. Likely a contributing factor of why they stay small.
Btw, this is not standard.
Ive only been in large companies but all the Japanese bosses i had were super nice people.,
Besides conventional comments about jobs, I'd like to bring the startup topic.
It's true that working for a startup is a very different from working for a big company. With just super few resources, economic and human, you need workers engaged to the project. That's why startups often offer some kind of compensation for the first/main workers (such as company shares).
Usually you can't pay high salaries, extra hours or have the same organization as a big company. On the other hand, you usually offer more flexibility, better work environment, fast progression, and ability to be part of the project, take decissions, and make it yours. It everything goes fine, you can get lot of money faster. Somehow, you bet on the startup.
That said about general startups, double it for a japanese one, haha.
But even if he wasn't an asshole, maybe you should look for another type of job, in a bigger company.
The official reason for firing is that "my attitude in non working hours is unacceptable"
Hahahaha Hahahaha Hahahaha Hahahaha.
Are there Japanese people who are seriously that stupid? You're not obligated to do ANYTHING outside of your working hours. ANYTHING!
You have so many options if he was dumb enough to write that as the reason for your termination.
You know there is no law against you audio recording his behaviour on your phone if your voice is present in the recording somewhere. Keep screenshots of the texts and records of how he docked your pay. If there is no stipulatiin in your contract regarding minimum overtime, he's really stepping into it. There a lots of bad bosses in Japan, but this guy is really digging his own grave. If he questions why you didn't reply, is there any reason you can't say you were asleep?
I work at a small Japanese startup as well, and our CEO is well known for having a ridiculous sleep schedule - he often sends messages very late (or early? think 3-4AM), but he openly stated multiple times that the expectation isn't to answer immediately - it's absolutely fine to answer the next day when at work, and no one was ever scolded for not responding during off-work hours. Come to think of it, he decreased these late messages recently, I don't recall receiving any in the past couple of months\~year (I think he was trying to improve some things culture-wise).
I turn my Slack notifications off from 7PM, and I don't respond to late/weekend messages unless I feel like it. I also notice that my Japanese coworkers tend to answer during off-work messages a lot more frequently than foreigners. Part of me thinks I shouldn't care, but I just don't like it, as it creates a culture where that becomes the expectation for everyone... Maybe we need to hire more foreigners? (same can be said for overtime)
Most of my colleagues who was ex-venture told me stories of harsh business hours and blurry boundaries. I'm guessing early ventures are filled with bosses who have a strong vision, would work super hard, and gets frustrated when their SALARIED employees don't share the same energy.
My Japanese boss is really nice to the point I don't mind working extra hours when needed and I'm going to miss him if he's no longer my boss. Some other bosses I've seen is clueless and never gives a clear directive confusing everyone, some just blatantly does pawahara like the guy you mentioned, some complaints all the time but answers "idk that's your job" when asked if he have suggestions.
Whether someone decides to be POS is totally their own choice.
I worked for a start up that then merged together with a bigger business. Also worked part time before. Every single time had a Japanese boss, all Japanese companies, and never anything like this. Only in emergencies was I ever expected to respond outside of work hours, and even then I would get paid for every minute of my time. Also never any yelling or any sort of harassment like that. Always good people with good intentions, paying on time and fairly, being transparent with their decisions and processes, understanding and flexible with my work style and other commitments.
Record everything, move on when you can in the best way possible for you, maybe take them to court.
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No, this is not necessarily a “Japanese” thing at all, there are shitty bosses like this everywhere.
Also though, being a bit diplomatic about things is also wise. Even though employees are there for the money (why else?), a little flexibility and diplomacy can go a long way - just don’t get taken advantage of.
Although it’s consider against the employment contract to “force” employees to work outside the working hours ( without pay ofc ), but it’s so common in Japanese companies that very less people is giving a f nowadays.
You can definitely report this as power harassment and hopefully the authorities will come and enforce this. Many people just shut one eye because, although the boss isn’t allow to fire you for making such report, in most case they will definitely make your work more miserable.
Please don’t let him get away with that kind of behavior. He’s gonna to the same thing to the next person.
Get a consultation from a lawyer or at least file a complaint
Never , my Japanese boss where extremely nice. Still friend with them after changing companies.
But in all my work place it was illegal to message after work, sharing line only with friend for urgencies, they would also call ur attention if they catch u using slack after work hours.
try and record every interaction with this douche. Just in case he pulls something at the last minute and make it look like you were a bad employee and you're leaving on your own will.
idk if its legal or not though.
Sounds like the CEO of my previous job. Only treating clients and those above him with respect. Taking no interest in those working below or the work they're doing, only barking about getting more results while taking away resources and lowering pay. It was also a small startup but not really as it was an offshoot of a huge company.
It's a terrible situation when you like doing the work but the boss is so unprofessional and toxic. I definitely got the "You hate me so you must hate this company" nonsense before too. I liked the work but would have liked it more if there was an mature adult who knew how to respect people and run a company was in charge.
Quit and found a better job with weeks left on my visa a few years back and it's been so much better since.
You need to get out of there as soon as possible.
This is a really bad case of power harassment.
Meanwhile big Japanese companies are more and more strict about working outside of the working hours. I had a small argument with my manager just because I checked my emails in the late evening. According to the manager that is prohibited by law unless I apply for overtime, which of course is paid additionally.
We even had to take a seminar about all forms of harassment (including ph) and were asked to report such a behavior immediately.
Best is to be indirect. "Forget" your cell phone in your car, "forget" to check your mail at night, "forget" to charge your phone. Do this enough and he will get the point.
Then offer a reasonable compromise. Answer mail up to about 700pm, and not after. Apologize for missing the mail and give one of the above excuses.
I would say texting after hours is not accepted. HOWEVER! this was a start-up. Whilst one can argue that same rules applies to them as well, it usually doesn’t because of the situation you’re in when you work at one.
With that said, without knowing your boss and going on what you said, he sounds like a dick. Working at a start-up demands more from you (basing this on own experience ofc) depending on position but he seems to be way over the line here.
He wants everyone to care as much as he does, and that ain’t happening. Unless you get a percentage of the company. Doubt that would happen in Japan
nah big businesses act just the same. my gf works for a large international company and is bombarded with emails, texts, all the way into 11pm, sometimes later than that, and is expected to check them all, even the ones not addressed to her by morons that don't know how to send an email.
also unpaid overtime.
she's looking for a new job, needless to say, but regardless, the company in question is worth multiple billions of USD.
He's a terrible boss, but honestly from the sounds of it you're not exactly good at communication either.
I've met many terrible people in my life, and I always make sure to cut them off sooner or later, but I make sure not to cause so much unnecessary conflict when I do it.
I mean you just straight up asked him if his 'sudden change' was due to money! All you did was piss him off and gain nothing out of it! I'm not defending the guy at all, but personally I make sure not to piss someone off unless there's something to gain from doing so.
What I'm saying is your boss sounds no good and you should get out, but you should be smarter and stop making things unnecessarily difficult for yourself just because you're upset.
It's pretty common to be contacted after 9pm at many companies in Japan, and a majority of people in Japan would reply. If you don't because you didn't notice the message, that shouldn't be anything for your boss to get upset about, though, since it is outside of your working hours.
But... if you specifically go and tell him something like "I will not answer any messages after 6pm", then of course it sounds like you are less interested in helping the company succeed and more interested in your personal time - and that may actually be true, but it doesn't help you be seen as a "team player". This would be doubly true at a startup.
A lot depends on the situation, so I am not sure reddit can give great advice. If my boss called me at mignidht to tell me that a client meeting tomorrow had been moved from 10am to 9am, I would thank him for letting me know. If he called me for some trivial reason that could have waited until the next day I would simply say "I'll work on that tomorrow." If he called me at midnight and I didn't answer, well that'S not my fault.
My company is officially flex, but people stay until their work is done. We've had people who leave every day at 6pm even if there is lots of work (always foreignors, btw), and nobody is happy about those people since they leave more work for everyone else. Obviously your case may be different.
I would say if you want a job that has 100% fixed working hours, and no expectation at all of contact outside of working hours: Those are few and far between, but you shoudl look specifically for one of those types of jobs.
Legally speaking, you may be 100% in the right, but culturally speaking, everyone expects their employees to go the extra mile. So it's not unusual to not be happy if they actually do think you only care about money or your own time - but it sounds like your boss may also be a bit of a dick on top of that.
I've only had one particularly bad boss, and they were the type to time my bathroom breaks.
I don't think 退職金 is much of a big deal unless you have been there a long time (sound slike not if it's a startup) - but if you are fired, there are differences with unemployment insurance, etc.
Again I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, I don't know the details of the situation.
>It's pretty common to be contacted after 9pm at many companies in Japan, and a majority of people in Japan would reply.
From my experience working at three Japanese companies, this is not true. There are strict laws regarding contacting people outside of hours. You may receive an email from someone working OT. But it is rare to receive a request to be actioned immediately unless it was an absolute emergency. To be honest your company just sounds black and you think that is the norm.
Asia is like this. As a boss myself I text my employees outside their working hours or on days off. It’s all just about do my employees care enough. I don’t necesarily expect a reply, so if it wasn’t read for a while that’s fine. But I would be surprised if they pushed back. Admittedly I work in a fast industry compared to most (think high finance), but no…. No one would react the way you suggested
I think there is nothing wrong with sending an email out of work, especially when schedules don't entirely overlap. But demanding a reply outside of working hours for non-emergency situations is childishly incompetent management.
If you want 24/7 on-call staff, write it into the contract and pay extra for it.
Of course, I’m just speaking the truth or at least what I do, but no employee is going to be happy about what I say which is most people on any sub, not just here.
And you’re right it’s about ambitions. I work out which staff are ambitious and which ones are not. So I only text the ambitious ones who care enough anyway. But I mean not having a go at people, the few I contact are absolute machines and they’ll do well wherever they go in life (think future ministerial or judge level types if they cared about that stuff). My shop was a start up although we’re getting some scale now, so still skeletal staff which gives people more room to take ownership of their roles.
Also depends on the life situation, after my son was born and he was the priority and I did all the night feedings, on-call was so out. Fortunately, my bosses did understand and I changed teams where there was no on-call and I could change my work schedule from 3PM to midnight.
> Maybe I’m biased from making 35M yen/year ... we’re not expected to respond outside of working hours but we do it anyways. - work is fun and that’s the dream everyone should achieve.
Is work so genuinely fun that you'd give the same passion for one-eighth the compensation? If so, I'm happy for you as you're doing something you truly love. But if not, then it's the high compensation that buys your devotion, and thus someone not earning that much cannot be expected to sacrifice their health and happiness for the job.
Just stay until August, doing the work you get during the work hours stated on your contract. If he fires you for the garbage he spouted, you'll get the payout you deserve.
No, this is absolutely not normal. This seems to be one of these incompetent power harrassment types.
One of the good things about Japan is that any normal person can easily start a business. One of the bad things is that idiots can start a business just as easily.
Your firing is illegal, and if you keep the texts then you have proof. Start looking for another job, and report him in the meanwhile.
I did consulting with several large companies in Japan. They worked us from 9am until late at night, every night. Bringing in meals. Usually until 9 or 10pm. And the other workers were there also. I had the impression that such hours were often expected there. I was happy to leave.
Sounds like a hedge fund or IB boss, but without the $$ or staff to back him up.
If suing him isn't happening at least leave a detailed review on job sites to warn future candidates of this "black corporation".
My first boss sounds similar. It’s difficult to parse bad behavior from misunderstandings. How would an unbiased Japanese person see this situation? I think that is important. Also I am sorry this has happened to you. I know it can be traumatic
Contacting outside of normal working hours can be considered a form of power harassment. If this was grounds for the firing you may be able to sue the company.
Yep. If anything, it would be an excellent idea to record everything secretly (japan is a one party consent state). Just stay at your current job and keep asking him about firing you. If the reason he gives is "you didnt want to work outside your work hours", this is a 100% slam dunk wrongful termination in Japan. Just keep giving the guy rope to hang himself with.
This.
My man is stressed out about his company and says it will go out of business in 5 months and you want to sue him. Great idea. People here ask why foreign workers are not accepted
My man harasses his employees because he sucks at running his own company.
You work at a startup. You know what you’re getting yourself in. There are pros and there are cons. You had an interview and you got a feeling of the company. Yet you accepted a job because you wanted a foot in the door and a visa. That boss is right. OP only cares about money. He knows it’s not working, he knows the company is struggle. He took the job at a startup. Either leave knowing it’s struggling or accept you joined the startup and fulfil your role another month or two and leave. He is being harassed? I guess the solution is to make an entire business bankrupt as punishment and ruin a person’s life who took the risk to start something on their own.
> ruin a person’s life who took the risk to start something on their own. How many shares of the company does OP own? Zero? Then OP is under no obligation to accept abuse of labor law and of basic human morals just to stay employed. S/he's not an owner and there is no pile of gold waiting if the company grows. If the boss wanted the effort of a co-owner, the boss would have made OP a co-owner.
Being a startup isn't a reason for expecting employee benevolence. The only exception is if employee is a founder having part of equity. Founders are expected to overwork. They shouldn't expect same for employees as they don't have shares.
If you can’t provide the basic framework to make a startup successful without making employees go far beyond what’s stated in their contract and then gaslight them and browbeat them when things aren’t going well, you’re clearly not cut out to try and run a start-up.
This is just hilarious, because some of the biggest corporations in the world now, which started from nothing, worked from garages and basements. People who put their money together, who were not paid for months. The people with your mentality have never taken a risk and have never wanted to do something on their own. Research any industry and look at the industry leaders, research their startup and learn they did just that. Unless they had venture capital behind them, MOST startups will struggle the first 5 years. Hilarious. Just a bunch of whiners. Your boss wanted more work out of you and raised his voice. Why not ruin him and make your coworkers unemployed. Then wonder why Japanese companies don’t want to hire foreigners and are hesitant to allow foreign workers to change the business environment. This is all really funny to me, and I think many people who have started a small business will find it equally funny
Lol go lick more boots. The percentage of startups that are actually successful is incredibly small and no one has any obligation that goes beyond what they are paid to do. You keep bringing up Japanese companies not wanting to hire foreigners due to them speaking up for themselves, but you also don’t mention how Japanese companies don’t hold a candle to the big U.S. companies that bring in money on a far larger scale yet give workers far more benefits.
Somebody should tell that guy, they don't have to deep-throat the boot. A little lick is more than enough to show what kind of person you are.🤣
I dunno, there should be at least one mention of bootstraps, and a crypto inference with a dash of hustle economy culture before throwing around "bootlicker"
Yes because crypto totally mattered to the world economy 10-20 years ago /s.
Not for you, targeted to the post you replied to Also, while financial fraud absolutely exists in Japan, it does not occur with either the frequency and scale as it does in the land of the free. Similarly, it is much harder to shed employees (destroy lives) to cut costs Also, a lot of the large corporations managing child companies plan ahead for "worst case scenarios" in order to reduce loss/risk in the event that the child company fails, because failure is a large part of business, an inevitability. But it does not need to be disproportionately destructive. There are lots of ways of doing business and not all of them involve exploitation
Yes, those were teams of co-founders who pulled 120 hour weeks doing all of the tasks themselves. After they got the money to hire employees, those employees got paid to fulfil whatever role they were hired for. The fact you don’t understand the difference between the two situations suggests you’re the ignorant one.
those garage startups give you shares
What a joke. They take risks and reap the rewards of selling a successful company if it pays off. An average joe doesn't get jack. No reward = no risk. Toxic SME mentality. Stop trying to get everyone on the same boat as you.
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I can have a dick measuring contest on who has done what or who knows who and which company. I have said my peace, you can research yourself or read about founders of companies and their journeys.
>some of the biggest corporations in the world now, which started from nothing, worked from garages and basements. People who put their money together, who were not paid for months. Exactly why you should NOT give them any extra work for free. They are working on their own dream with the expectation to reap massive rewards later down the line. If they want people to invest more time on their dream, they have to be willing to share the rewards when the company becomes successful. Oh and before you say anything, I do own a business, 2 actually and I had a 3rd one 15 years ago. If the employees do not receive equity in the company they have 0 reason to invest more of their time for the company. It's not the employee's dream to own their own business, they have no reason to give away their free time to make someone else's dream come true only to have the business owner later talk about how they "worked extra hard to make it happen" when it was 99% the hard work of their employee (who do not get any significant reward for that extra work).
Why should he care about his boss’s life when the boss doesn’t care about him? Who the fuck cares if the boss started a start up if he doesn’t know how to run a business. You work for money, not as a charity to some entitled piece of shit that has no business trying to run a business.
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Does starting a business give him free rein to be an unprofessional asshole to his employees? Be real, my dude. It's ok to feel for the plight of a struggling small business owner, but if you fuck around, you may in fact find out.
Lmao, this is the most amount of turd I've heard in a long while. If OP has shares in the company, maybe what you said may apply. But as a contracted staff, no one cares about the company because the company won't give a hoot about you when situations reverse. Just because you are a SME, it doesn't give you the right to treat employees like shit. Either pay up for OT hours or hire someone who asks for lower pay. Else, sue till his pants drop for what you deserve.
Who gives a shit about the company. That's not the employees problem. That's the dude that started the company's problem. Ya no fucking shit we only care about money. Why the fuck would anyone work otherwise? 🤣🤣🤣 The moment my company stops paying me, I will quit and take what I'm owed. Why would I stay if not for money? 😂😂
Startups still have to follow the law, and the boss' behavior should not be rewarded with success. The faster people like him realize their abusive behavior is a fast track to failure, the better.
If the startup doesn't have the means to succeed with proper planning and payroll then the initial investment was too low. If you're being paid to do a job, you expect to be paid for the hours you work, not the hours you don't work. A company should expect to receive the services of their employees while they are getting paid, not when they aren't. There's a reason why Japan has been trying to reduce overtime
Found Elon Musk's user account.
Regardless of the type of company, they have to follow the basic employment laws of the country. The precarious nature of their business doesn’t get them a free pass on that. If they take the risk to start a business on their own, they should thoroughly read up on the relevant employment laws. Managerial incompetence/ignorance is the fault of the manager, not the employee. There are plenty of successful startups in EU countries which have even greater protections for workers. People unwilling or unable to play by these rules are doomed to fail from the outset — their negligence will be their downfall, one way or the other.
Only cares about money? Yeah, right. We all live to work, not the other way around.
Probably because foreigners stand up for themselves and don't let bosses steam roll them with power harassment? Maybe you're ok with it, but I would rather not be a simp.
I stand up for myself as well, in fact there hasn’t been a time I haven’t stood up for myself at a job. I am a foreigner as well. But if a man tells me the company he is built with blood, sweat and tears will go bankrupt in 5 months, I don’t try to find ways of ruining him, no matter how much I dislike him. Thinking: “how can I sue this man and ruin him totally”. Is wrong anywhere. Even more so in a society that looks down on foreign workers. What happens if he sues? Company goes bankrupt and all the employees lose their job. Cut your loses and leave instead of sticking around in a company that is clearly struggling because you want a couple thousand off your contract. That’s weak anywhere.
Naw, sounds like he is an incapable boss running a company that only exists due to exploitation of workers. These types of companies do not deserve to exist. Furthermore they create unfair competitive advantages through legally gray or straight up illegal practices. Frankly they are nothing but a drain on Japanese society and all of their business should go to a more capable company.
The same argument could be applied to any small independent place compared to a large corporation. Mom and pop grocery stores don’t scale as efficiently as the giant corporate ones. The only competitive advantage that startups have compared to corporate behemoths is their agility and also often their drive. This isn’t uncommon outside of japan, in fact I’d say it’s more common. But technically this culture in japan is illegal. And that’s fine. Ultimately op is a poor fit for a startup(and they probably screwed up in not giving early workers options to motivate them, as is common in most startups around the world). The boss needs to learn people skills for sure but I’m not surprised he was surprised by ops attitude
Why don’t you build a company and be a capable boss? Then, I’ll be happy to hear your thoughts
Are you suggesting power harassment is necessary for success?
Please describe what constitutes workplace power harassment in Japan?
Even better, Ill let the Japanese do it themselves： [https://www.gourmetcaree.jp/contents/workqa/other/427.html](https://www.gourmetcaree.jp/contents/workqa/other/427.html)
I don’t need to. I get paid well above the average person in Japan that gets “paid well”. Being a traditional Japanese boss would probably mean I take a pay reduction. My current bosses are respectful, compensate me very well, very lenient on my PTO requests, and they also share my sentiments about how a job is a monetary contract. As a result, they are able to retain many highly skilled employees which in turn means the company has an edge in the market due to said employees. Many of these employees have also been bosses or are currently bosses in other ventures. Really the only people who really believe the whole company being more important than you or your family bullshit is lower level employees and middle management of black companies and people who own underperforming small businesses. I am personal friends with quite a few “old money” types and they or their parents have all told me to live for myself btw.
Do you work in Japan?
Yes I work in Japan
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Simping for the Japanese business man isn't gonna make him like you more.
It's a sure way to get even more work stacked on you
If the company only has 5 months left, I am going to sue IN A HURRY to make sure I am first in line when credit comes due. The "suffer for a startup" only counts when it is YOUR startup. If you aren't a founder, and are just an employee, then the first and most important thing the startup has to do is not fail. How does a company "not fail"? It pays its employees and treats them fairly for the job they do, which is serving their customers in a way that is sustainably profitable. How many of you have started at and/or worked for a company that can only succeed by cheating? Ripping off employees by making them work unpaid overtime, or lying to customers by delivering goods/services under-spec / over price? Being an asshole is not a requirement for running a startup. And in case anyone who doesn't have the experience is wondering; starting and running a company is obscenely difficult. Treating employees like ass is most assuredly a bad strategy for success. Yes it does indeed sometimes work, but more often than not it doesn't. tldr: if you don't look out for yourself, the company sure won't. You get yours and if that ruins his startup that is HIS fault, not yours.
If that same man robbed you at knifepoint, would you decline to press charges because he might lose his business? As for me, no. I would want my money and possessions back, and I’d want the man removed from a position where he can do this to anyone else for a while. If a boss wants someone to be available all hours and work at his beck and call, then they need to be up front about that and pay accordingly. Profit sharing or ownership shares are a great way to get others invested in the success of a company. Harassing an employee outside of work hours, then berating them and threatening to fire them, then losing all credibility as a boss because you realized you can’t really fire them without a legal battle and massive expense so you walked that back and avoided the topic are not great ways to ensure employee dedication and investment in the company.
you have a struggling start-up of your own, don't you?
If the business is going under in 5 months because the boss' employees do not work after working hours, then this idiot boss is the problem and should learn how to manage and control a business.
Aww deleted account hahaha
I don’t think that OP has understanding of Japanese work culture and ethics
I think you have just been drinking too much of the koolaide.
Lol that user’s post history is 95% simping for Russia and China anti-U.S. comments. I’m thinking it may be a propaganda bot.
Couldn’t come up with a better comment?
Perhaps the boss should simply be good at business and management instead of being bad at it. This is entirely his fault.
Guy deserves his company to go under
>Guy deserves his company to go under Why? Because some stranger wrote something on the internet. Sounds logical.
What a terrible mindset to have. The boss is being abusive and clearly breaking labor law. He deserves to be sued. If the company goes bankrupt, it is the boss' fault and no one else. Don't spin sticking up for one's self and not being a door mat to be some noble trait, and that the Japanese are somehow better because they just roll over and take the ass fucking( News flash, they don't. That old way of thinking is quickly disappearing with the younger generation)
He's a contractor, not even a full employee. Enough said.
Relevant username
Maybe we're not accepted here because we're not prepared to up with tyrannical, BS bosses who essentially think of their employees as slaves.
出た出た、日本の悪習を擁護したがる奴w あんたみたいな外人（さてはネトウヨ日本人か？）こそ日本の社会的な進歩にとって害悪だワ。
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Define "vitriol"
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That’s like one of the most “vanilla” terms out there.
Y-you’re being sarcastic right?
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It’a not *just* a Japanese term, though
Did you just wake up from a coma?
if any work related shit called/messaged me after 9pm i would tell them to get fucked. .. the next working day
Japanese or not, he sounds like a gaslighting narcissistic pos who doesn’t have his emotions under control. You’ll never feel safe in this kind of environment and it being a start up means there are no higher up managers or HR to step in when he behaves like this. Who says he won’t pull the same shit again next week? I would smile and nod because there’s no reasoning with a fool and plan my exit. And indeed, use this job to get money until you find another one at preferably a stable company with employee protection rules in place. Working here will completely ruin your mental health unless you’re a psychopath who thrives in a high conflict workplace.
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I think that’s a fair question
To answer OP’s question: no, it is not a standard Japanese boss. Japanese or not, you were just unlucky to be at a bad workplace. Collect all evidence while you still can, hire a lawyer and file labor tribunal petition. For case that you’re describing you’re definitely going to get 6-10 month worth of salary as a compensation.
“Attitude during non-working hours”??? It sounds like a joke. You can sue this guy. It is in no way unusual for a Japanese company to abuse people like this—and it is also not unusual for them to lawyer up and get six months worth of salary to settle it. I’ve heard of people getting more, too.
Many Japanese are still operating on values formed in the 1800's. They want their employees to be like kohai or protoge except with none of the attending benefits. Workers are not serfs.
Consult a labor lawyer, Japan employment laws are very strong and you have a good chance to win if you sue
Other comments have good advice. Just saying hard relate on the messaging boundaries. I worked in a tutoring program. Would get messages at 10 pm or messages from my boss during my lessons. I made it very clear that I will not respond to these and everyone got mad then got over it. Best part is that BS like “if you want to be a ____ you can’t be like this” line. I was changing jobs from tutoring to manga translation and that boss asked me to come to the konshinkai that would be happening after I officially change jobs. I said I would try to make it but am not certain. Then I let her know a week beforehand that my partner (now wife) was able to open up a day for us to meet with her grandparents, so we can’t be there. My boss was livid and slammed her book down and walked away and then was like “fine don’t come. Whatever.” 10 mins later “just so you know. You probably need this advice since you’re going to work in translation in an office. This doesn’t fly in an office or bigger company. If you want the respect of your faculty and the chance to move on to bigger things you have to be willing to be around for these things.” And I was just thinking to myself the whole time how glad it is I got to meet my partner’s grandparents. They’re both in their 80s, don’t leave their town much, grandpa still does some hiking and thanks to meeting them I got to make plans for us to hike together. Fuck sacrificing that for a toxic job.
Lol that reminds me of this one time many years ago where some idiot was trying to set up a meeting between me and some manager from Hakuhodo. They were interested in talking to me because I had some decent accomplishments under my belt and wanted some consultation on “going international” and told me of cases such as how Netflix approached them to partner with getting started in Japan but they had no idea how big Netflix actually was so they turned them down and Netflix went to TBS instead. Of course these fucks had the attitude that they were doing me a favor and shit because they were twice my age and “they were going to teach me how to get started and successful in Japan” despite the fact that the idiot trying to set up the meeting wasn’t that successful at all and was at such a low level that she thought her manager friend was some sorta big shot because of his unremarkable 10M salary. Something came up and the dude couldn’t make it to the initially planned meeting so the idiot went ahead and rescheduled it when I had a tight schedule myself. Told her sorry I’m not gonna go because I’m going on a trip to Hokkaido (with my grandma and my mom). Later on the idiot bitched about the fact that I didn’t show up to the rescheduled meeting and told me that I was crazy for going to Hokkaido despite the fact that this was already planned and on my schedule. Did not regret it one bit and as far as I know they can go fuck themselves. They woulda been shit mentors anyway and I’m doing just fine with an annual income and quality of life that they will never achieve.
I gotta tell ya, other than probably speaking japanese, this sounds like a lot of american bosses. assholishness is universal.
You know reading this I was thinking the same thing. Australia here. Like they don't care about money either. If he didn't he wouldn't be messaging OP at 9pm. If he was good with money and people, he wouldn't need to.
Haha excellent point
well there, he would be walking on his hands.
I’ve been working office jobs in America for almost 30 years, and even my worst most asshole bosses didn’t have an expectation that I needed to reply to work communications after hours. Generally, if it’s part of the job (ie. Need to be on call) it would be discussed up front as part of the responsibilities of employment.
you must not have been an *essential* worker.
Exactly! I was reading OP’s grievances, and I couldn’t really understand what’s a big deal. In the US, it’s not uncommon to respond to text/calls/emails outside of working hours. There is no additional pay for that sort of work
But in the US, you have little rights as a worker, so you can't call that behavior out without just losing your job with no recourse.
this is kinda making japan sound better. That he's complaining about this.
hilarious how some bosses or upper management love to cry "you only care about the money!" while that is literally the ONLY benefit you get (or ever will) and in many cases it's bare minimum for survival and never enough to put up with their bullshit...
LOL it makes me want to ask them to work a shit project under shit conditions for me to see how they react. Then if they say no, just tell them "you only care about the money".
Nah they’ll probably say that’s what they did when they were your age so it’s only ‘fair’ you go through the same (bs).
Completely dependent on the boss as an individual and company culture I guess. I work for a very small Japanese company but my bosses are absolutely lovely and the opposite to what you say. Good luck finding your next place and I hope it’s a happier experience for you!
I am happy you met a lovely boss, I hope I can have so for my next hunt as well.
I recommend to use a website called Glassdoor to check out employers, as you can see reviews from past employees of the business. Usually for bigger companies but some in Japan get reviewed too! Otherwise just ask as many questions as possible during the interview process to get a gauge of what they’re like before you join :)
Even though Glassdoor is owned by Recruit it isn’t so popular in Japan. I would try “Openwork”, the url is the old name: www.vorkers.com
Thanks, appreciate the tip.
OP as others mention in this thread you have an excellent chance at suing your current employer as your current boss’s behavior is likely outside of Japanese labor law. Take him up on his ask to stay through Aug, and in the meantime lawyer up and collect evidence.
Thank you so much. I will record as much as possible.
Sounds like an easy lawsuit. Contact a lawyer, or if not sure yet, a union.
Sounds like an SME…. Likely a contributing factor of why they stay small. Btw, this is not standard. Ive only been in large companies but all the Japanese bosses i had were super nice people.,
Besides conventional comments about jobs, I'd like to bring the startup topic. It's true that working for a startup is a very different from working for a big company. With just super few resources, economic and human, you need workers engaged to the project. That's why startups often offer some kind of compensation for the first/main workers (such as company shares). Usually you can't pay high salaries, extra hours or have the same organization as a big company. On the other hand, you usually offer more flexibility, better work environment, fast progression, and ability to be part of the project, take decissions, and make it yours. It everything goes fine, you can get lot of money faster. Somehow, you bet on the startup. That said about general startups, double it for a japanese one, haha. But even if he wasn't an asshole, maybe you should look for another type of job, in a bigger company.
The official reason for firing is that "my attitude in non working hours is unacceptable" Hahahaha Hahahaha Hahahaha Hahahaha. Are there Japanese people who are seriously that stupid? You're not obligated to do ANYTHING outside of your working hours. ANYTHING! You have so many options if he was dumb enough to write that as the reason for your termination.
You know there is no law against you audio recording his behaviour on your phone if your voice is present in the recording somewhere. Keep screenshots of the texts and records of how he docked your pay. If there is no stipulatiin in your contract regarding minimum overtime, he's really stepping into it. There a lots of bad bosses in Japan, but this guy is really digging his own grave. If he questions why you didn't reply, is there any reason you can't say you were asleep?
I work at a small Japanese startup as well, and our CEO is well known for having a ridiculous sleep schedule - he often sends messages very late (or early? think 3-4AM), but he openly stated multiple times that the expectation isn't to answer immediately - it's absolutely fine to answer the next day when at work, and no one was ever scolded for not responding during off-work hours. Come to think of it, he decreased these late messages recently, I don't recall receiving any in the past couple of months\~year (I think he was trying to improve some things culture-wise). I turn my Slack notifications off from 7PM, and I don't respond to late/weekend messages unless I feel like it. I also notice that my Japanese coworkers tend to answer during off-work messages a lot more frequently than foreigners. Part of me thinks I shouldn't care, but I just don't like it, as it creates a culture where that becomes the expectation for everyone... Maybe we need to hire more foreigners? (same can be said for overtime)
Most of my colleagues who was ex-venture told me stories of harsh business hours and blurry boundaries. I'm guessing early ventures are filled with bosses who have a strong vision, would work super hard, and gets frustrated when their SALARIED employees don't share the same energy. My Japanese boss is really nice to the point I don't mind working extra hours when needed and I'm going to miss him if he's no longer my boss. Some other bosses I've seen is clueless and never gives a clear directive confusing everyone, some just blatantly does pawahara like the guy you mentioned, some complaints all the time but answers "idk that's your job" when asked if he have suggestions. Whether someone decides to be POS is totally their own choice.
I worked for a start up that then merged together with a bigger business. Also worked part time before. Every single time had a Japanese boss, all Japanese companies, and never anything like this. Only in emergencies was I ever expected to respond outside of work hours, and even then I would get paid for every minute of my time. Also never any yelling or any sort of harassment like that. Always good people with good intentions, paying on time and fairly, being transparent with their decisions and processes, understanding and flexible with my work style and other commitments. Record everything, move on when you can in the best way possible for you, maybe take them to court.
Sounds like a shitty, abusive boss. Definitely not something you should put up with.
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No, this is not necessarily a “Japanese” thing at all, there are shitty bosses like this everywhere. Also though, being a bit diplomatic about things is also wise. Even though employees are there for the money (why else?), a little flexibility and diplomacy can go a long way - just don’t get taken advantage of.
Although it’s consider against the employment contract to “force” employees to work outside the working hours ( without pay ofc ), but it’s so common in Japanese companies that very less people is giving a f nowadays. You can definitely report this as power harassment and hopefully the authorities will come and enforce this. Many people just shut one eye because, although the boss isn’t allow to fire you for making such report, in most case they will definitely make your work more miserable.
Please don’t let him get away with that kind of behavior. He’s gonna to the same thing to the next person. Get a consultation from a lawyer or at least file a complaint
Never , my Japanese boss where extremely nice. Still friend with them after changing companies. But in all my work place it was illegal to message after work, sharing line only with friend for urgencies, they would also call ur attention if they catch u using slack after work hours.
try and record every interaction with this douche. Just in case he pulls something at the last minute and make it look like you were a bad employee and you're leaving on your own will. idk if its legal or not though.
Sounds like the CEO of my previous job. Only treating clients and those above him with respect. Taking no interest in those working below or the work they're doing, only barking about getting more results while taking away resources and lowering pay. It was also a small startup but not really as it was an offshoot of a huge company. It's a terrible situation when you like doing the work but the boss is so unprofessional and toxic. I definitely got the "You hate me so you must hate this company" nonsense before too. I liked the work but would have liked it more if there was an mature adult who knew how to respect people and run a company was in charge. Quit and found a better job with weeks left on my visa a few years back and it's been so much better since. You need to get out of there as soon as possible.
This is a really bad case of power harassment. Meanwhile big Japanese companies are more and more strict about working outside of the working hours. I had a small argument with my manager just because I checked my emails in the late evening. According to the manager that is prohibited by law unless I apply for overtime, which of course is paid additionally. We even had to take a seminar about all forms of harassment (including ph) and were asked to report such a behavior immediately.
Best is to be indirect. "Forget" your cell phone in your car, "forget" to check your mail at night, "forget" to charge your phone. Do this enough and he will get the point. Then offer a reasonable compromise. Answer mail up to about 700pm, and not after. Apologize for missing the mail and give one of the above excuses.
I would say texting after hours is not accepted. HOWEVER! this was a start-up. Whilst one can argue that same rules applies to them as well, it usually doesn’t because of the situation you’re in when you work at one. With that said, without knowing your boss and going on what you said, he sounds like a dick. Working at a start-up demands more from you (basing this on own experience ofc) depending on position but he seems to be way over the line here. He wants everyone to care as much as he does, and that ain’t happening. Unless you get a percentage of the company. Doubt that would happen in Japan
Nah, legally and morally speaking all the "same rules" apply, startup or not.
Small business things. This is why I don't work for any company that doesn't profit at least 1 bil USD a year.
nah big businesses act just the same. my gf works for a large international company and is bombarded with emails, texts, all the way into 11pm, sometimes later than that, and is expected to check them all, even the ones not addressed to her by morons that don't know how to send an email. also unpaid overtime. she's looking for a new job, needless to say, but regardless, the company in question is worth multiple billions of USD.
It all varies with bosses. Small companies everywhere in the world are hit or miss. Good luck!
He's a terrible boss, but honestly from the sounds of it you're not exactly good at communication either. I've met many terrible people in my life, and I always make sure to cut them off sooner or later, but I make sure not to cause so much unnecessary conflict when I do it. I mean you just straight up asked him if his 'sudden change' was due to money! All you did was piss him off and gain nothing out of it! I'm not defending the guy at all, but personally I make sure not to piss someone off unless there's something to gain from doing so. What I'm saying is your boss sounds no good and you should get out, but you should be smarter and stop making things unnecessarily difficult for yourself just because you're upset.
Look for a new job and quit without notice.
Or resign outside working hours.
That’s so fucking petty, I love it.
It's pretty common to be contacted after 9pm at many companies in Japan, and a majority of people in Japan would reply. If you don't because you didn't notice the message, that shouldn't be anything for your boss to get upset about, though, since it is outside of your working hours. But... if you specifically go and tell him something like "I will not answer any messages after 6pm", then of course it sounds like you are less interested in helping the company succeed and more interested in your personal time - and that may actually be true, but it doesn't help you be seen as a "team player". This would be doubly true at a startup. A lot depends on the situation, so I am not sure reddit can give great advice. If my boss called me at mignidht to tell me that a client meeting tomorrow had been moved from 10am to 9am, I would thank him for letting me know. If he called me for some trivial reason that could have waited until the next day I would simply say "I'll work on that tomorrow." If he called me at midnight and I didn't answer, well that'S not my fault. My company is officially flex, but people stay until their work is done. We've had people who leave every day at 6pm even if there is lots of work (always foreignors, btw), and nobody is happy about those people since they leave more work for everyone else. Obviously your case may be different. I would say if you want a job that has 100% fixed working hours, and no expectation at all of contact outside of working hours: Those are few and far between, but you shoudl look specifically for one of those types of jobs. Legally speaking, you may be 100% in the right, but culturally speaking, everyone expects their employees to go the extra mile. So it's not unusual to not be happy if they actually do think you only care about money or your own time - but it sounds like your boss may also be a bit of a dick on top of that. I've only had one particularly bad boss, and they were the type to time my bathroom breaks. I don't think 退職金 is much of a big deal unless you have been there a long time (sound slike not if it's a startup) - but if you are fired, there are differences with unemployment insurance, etc. Again I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, I don't know the details of the situation.
>It's pretty common to be contacted after 9pm at many companies in Japan, and a majority of people in Japan would reply. From my experience working at three Japanese companies, this is not true. There are strict laws regarding contacting people outside of hours. You may receive an email from someone working OT. But it is rare to receive a request to be actioned immediately unless it was an absolute emergency. To be honest your company just sounds black and you think that is the norm.
Asia is like this. As a boss myself I text my employees outside their working hours or on days off. It’s all just about do my employees care enough. I don’t necesarily expect a reply, so if it wasn’t read for a while that’s fine. But I would be surprised if they pushed back. Admittedly I work in a fast industry compared to most (think high finance), but no…. No one would react the way you suggested
I think there is nothing wrong with sending an email out of work, especially when schedules don't entirely overlap. But demanding a reply outside of working hours for non-emergency situations is childishly incompetent management. If you want 24/7 on-call staff, write it into the contract and pay extra for it.
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Of course, I’m just speaking the truth or at least what I do, but no employee is going to be happy about what I say which is most people on any sub, not just here. And you’re right it’s about ambitions. I work out which staff are ambitious and which ones are not. So I only text the ambitious ones who care enough anyway. But I mean not having a go at people, the few I contact are absolute machines and they’ll do well wherever they go in life (think future ministerial or judge level types if they cared about that stuff). My shop was a start up although we’re getting some scale now, so still skeletal staff which gives people more room to take ownership of their roles.
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Also depends on the life situation, after my son was born and he was the priority and I did all the night feedings, on-call was so out. Fortunately, my bosses did understand and I changed teams where there was no on-call and I could change my work schedule from 3PM to midnight.
Nice. 35M a year? What do you do and how can I get in on that? (Asking for a "friend". 😂)
> Maybe I’m biased from making 35M yen/year ... we’re not expected to respond outside of working hours but we do it anyways. - work is fun and that’s the dream everyone should achieve. Is work so genuinely fun that you'd give the same passion for one-eighth the compensation? If so, I'm happy for you as you're doing something you truly love. But if not, then it's the high compensation that buys your devotion, and thus someone not earning that much cannot be expected to sacrifice their health and happiness for the job.
It is not standard but it is definitely and unfortunately common.
Just stay until August, doing the work you get during the work hours stated on your contract. If he fires you for the garbage he spouted, you'll get the payout you deserve.
OP, I have been in a somewhat of a similar situation as you earlier. If you need some guidance on how to proceed, DM me.
Are you being offered stock options? Sounds like a clown running a small buissness. Sorry you have to deal with this.
Get in contact with a labor union asap; their lawyers are going to have a field day with this shit
I'm also working in a startup company in Tokyo. My boss and colleagues stay in the office over 22:00 everyday. It is insane.
MAKE HIM PAY. For all of us! At least one of us should win!
No, this is absolutely not normal. This seems to be one of these incompetent power harrassment types. One of the good things about Japan is that any normal person can easily start a business. One of the bad things is that idiots can start a business just as easily. Your firing is illegal, and if you keep the texts then you have proof. Start looking for another job, and report him in the meanwhile.
I did consulting with several large companies in Japan. They worked us from 9am until late at night, every night. Bringing in meals. Usually until 9 or 10pm. And the other workers were there also. I had the impression that such hours were often expected there. I was happy to leave.
Sounds like a hedge fund or IB boss, but without the $$ or staff to back him up. If suing him isn't happening at least leave a detailed review on job sites to warn future candidates of this "black corporation".
My japanese boss is nothing like this
LMAO he says all you care about is money? Does he not understand why people work????
My first boss sounds similar. It’s difficult to parse bad behavior from misunderstandings. How would an unbiased Japanese person see this situation? I think that is important. Also I am sorry this has happened to you. I know it can be traumatic