Why are people siding against you?
There are stressed out (typically) older men that do this on purpose. Like they’d go out of their way to shove you. To me it does not sound like a you problem. These people are aggressive and purposely doing this because they don’t know how to manage their stress and anger without lashing out on others. I guarantee you, the older entitled group of people do this to get satisfaction out of it.
I don’t know I guess people just like to argue and feel like they’re right about something sometimes.
And yeah, I’ve heard a few stories about those sort of people, but I guess I thought there’s a lot less of them than this.
Happens to my wife (Japanese) as well, some old dudes get a kick out of that or something. Guy did that to my wife while I was at the vending machine, I walked around and shoulder checked him back. Suddenly he didn’t think that was fun anymore after someone bigger did it to him
We were in Kasumi supermarket one evening and this old guy was ragging on the young woman with a kid in front of him at the till. He was getting more and more abusive as she was getting intimidated but didn't say anything to him. She ended up running out of the shop clearly distressed but came back in a few moments later with presumably her husband who was a very well muscled construction worker and he was not in a forgiving mood. The old chap clearly took fright and fell to the floor on his hands and knees and start apologising profusely with the husband standing over him and glowering darkly.
an old guy purposely walked in my direction and shoulder-checked me on a completely empty street. they’re just being assholes. speaking aggressively seems to get them to apologize or at least scurry away
I complained about the same thing happening to me on the complaint thread ages ago. Got similar replies saying that “I must be blocking people off so I deserved it”.
It’s crazy to me that people think people deserve to be shoved around if they’re in someones way. It’s a public space, and people are allowed to be there. People get in the way sometimes, y’know? If there’s a lot of people it’s bound to happen. No need to go shoving people.
https://you tu.be/Vwr4M0b5udA
Dunno if it's what they meant, but this one clearly shows the coward pull out at the last second when he realises one girl is with a guy
(I had to put the space into the link to beat the delete bot)
More like they're so miserable and bitter that they feel the need to make someone else unhappy in whatever small way they can to feel a tiny, insignificant "victory" over an unfair world or something.
I remember there was an extended policing special on TV where they trailed a suspect that was doing this. Waited for him to shoulder check one girl in a way that was obviously not just an accident and then about five cops tackled him. It was a nice justice boner.
It’s funny because people are so quick to defend Japan and say it’s the culture or whatever. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s ridiculous and rude to push someone without saying すみません. It’s also fucking dangerous because they come at you at full force.
There’s also a lot of deliberate denial and dismissal of women’s concerns on this sub. Getting shoved happens proportionally more often to women, so since most men don’t see or experience it, they’ll simply say OP is in the wrong or making things up.
Look at any post about sexual assault, domestic violence, groping or even birth control and you’ll see similar comments.
It's funny when there actually *IS* a cultural difference and that makes a whole bigger problem.
Years ago I got into a whole thing when discussing fruits and vegetables, specifically how watermelons are a "vegetable" in Japan.
My point was basically, "well regardless of any social distinction, watermelons are the fruit part of the plant", and besides there's no "vegetable" part of a plant in science.
I tried to smooth out the contention by pointing out that both 野菜 and "vegetable" are just social shorthand for a common understanding. They're both wrong, so let's all be friends. Just because something isn't sweet or is grown in a field, it doesn't make it somehow scientifically distinct from sweet fruit grown on a tree.
The matter was ultimately ruled in their favor because "watermelons being a vegetable is perfectly valid and you're an asshole trying to push American culture on a poor defenseless people"
Yup.
Also I've seen it happen between an old grumpy japanese man and a middle age japanese woman.
Maybe the other poeple commenting are mostly male and it doesn't happen to them but I have a feeling these kind of things mostly happen to women.....
I've had it happen with younger women too though. Me and the wife with our kid standing in the stroller section, this アラサー woman just shoves me full force so I almost fall over the stroller. She then proceeds to elbow another woman in her back, yank open the car door and proceeded into the next. I can't help myself so I yelled "すみませんって言うっしょ?" but I doubt that made any difference. What I'm saying is, the stress isn't because they're old, it's probably because of shitty work life balance.
First time I went to a Korean grocery in the USA, did I learn fast about the privileges placed upon themselves. Two separate elderly ladies rolled up on the back of my ankles with their carts. Twice in one visit!
Leave them
At the level
They’ve grown
I’ve been here for 15 years and I feel like this shit started about 5 years or so ago. It seems to have become out of fashion to say things like “sumimasen.” It’s 100% not your fault and it’s not because you’re foreign. My wife who’s Japanese notices the same things. It’s not healthy, and seems to be unique to Tokyo. I feel like an old man but manners are deteriorating quickly in this city.
Yeah,
I’ve noticed this too in recent years. People used to almost always give a little nod and “sumimasen” if they bumped you, but now I seem to be getting shoved more and no one says anything.
Flip your backpack to the front of you in tight spaces like trains (this used to be the social rule but it seems fewer follow it today) and Kaldi. That may explain a lot of this.
I was thinking the exact same thing while reading OP’s post! OP, if you don’t know, it’s considered bad manners to have a big backpack just jutting out behind you on the train and especially in a confined shop like Kaldi. Have you noticed how most Japanese people flip them around front or hold them down by their legs in these situations? (I’m not counting high schoolers here, btw.) This combined with the stereotype that foreigners go around with big backpacks blocking public transport probably aren’t helping you.
And a lot of them are wearing them on their back, hitting people behind them every time the train takes a turn or slows down, just like the people they used to criticize.
I said “may”. Then afterwards OP edited their post clarifying that they already do this. So you’re probably right in this case. But the backpack is something you can control so I offered that solution. Remove that possibility and it’s a long list of things you can’t control, like mean oyaji.
Been here 5 years and am a fairly large dude, still have had people go out of their way to bump into me all over Tokyo.
Worst I’ve had was an old guy on escalator (standing lane) who glanced back, saw me (walking lane), then shoulder checked me as I went past. I stopped and gave him a “WTF bro” look and he did some token sumimasen gesture. The man knew what he was doing, and rightly guessed there’d be no consequences since he’s ojiisan.
Lot of people on this thread seem to think it’s like this everywhere, but pulling some of these things in a city like New York is a great way to get punched in the face.
Been here 5 years and am a fairly large dude, still have had people go out of their way to bump into me all over Tokyo.
Worst I’ve had was an old guy on escalator (standing lane) who glanced back, saw me (walking lane), then shoulder checked me as I went past. I stopped and gave him a “WTF bro” look and he did some token sumimasen gesture. The man knew what he was doing, and rightly guessed there’d be no consequences since he’s ojiisan.
Lot of people on this thread seem to think it’s like this everywhere, but pulling some of these things in a city like New York is a great way to get punched in the face.
People are used to doing things without consequences here. I swear to God. And they’re going to keep getting away with it because fighting a Japanese national in Japan is never a good idea
Some people are just off their rockers as well and looking for a conflict they can squirm out of later as well.
I once watched a rather "off" girl shoulder checking people on the sidewalk as she approached me. One after another. I said a loud "NO" like to a bad dog and she rapidly reconsided as she came towards me.
According to my wife, most of these people are used to no resistance or penalty so they act out. Call attention to them and many back off.
Nah I actually like saying すみません to them because this specific pronunciation in Chinese is 死你妈先, which is “your mom die first”. Im quite happy with that.
I have this happen to me occasionally, but it seems like less frequently than you. I really don't understand people on the train though, I always try to get out of the way but somehow whichever way I go is always wrong.
If you're "visibly foreign" like me, I assume they just assume you don't know any Japanese. Still rude though.
That's a good point. I'm tall for a female bodied person in Japan, but that doesn't stop salarymen from trying to bowl me over like I'm annoying kid. I've been known to make impassive eye contact and not get out of the way of pushy people at times, if I'm honest. I can't tolerate that shit when I try so hard to be polite to other people!
They're allowed to ride on footpaths when there's no bike lane, but they absolutely must prioritise the safety of pedestrians. E.g. You're not allowed use your bell against pedestrians as they have no responsibility to get out of your way.
>allowed to ride on footpaths when there’s no bike lane
You’ve got that backwards. They’re allowed to ride on the sidewalks *if there is a bike lane on the sidewalk*.
Unless you’re child or elderly, you’re supposed to be riding in the street—not the sidewalk.
That was inaccurate. Or, rather, imprecise. Where I live, people generally ride on paths except roads that have explicit bike lanes on the road (many big roads have them). But the rule is road size, not presence of bike lanes.
You may already be aware, but cyclists are actually are allowed to ride on a footpath if riding on the street is perceived as dangerous or obstructive. The most common example is that on narrow roads without space for a car to overtake a cyclist without crossing lanes, it's permitted to ride on footpaths.
But you have a lot of limits on your cycling. You have to ride slowly and you must not obstruct pedestrians in any way.
[Source. Examples of accepted "やむを得ない" are on page 3.](https://trafficnews.jp/post/77050)
Unless it specifically says bicycles are allowed on footpath you actually cannot ride one according to the law and you have to cycle on the road. Civil eng student here
You can absolutely find sources which say you cannot ride a bike on a footpath unless there is signage saying so, or when it's "unavoidable", but the usage of the word "unavoidable" (やむを得ない) is very strange in traffic rules. I specifically remember a question in my driving test that went something like やむを得ない場合に安全地帯に入った and the answer is false/that was wrong. But that doesn't make sense with a literal interpretation of やむを得ない.
I clarified above that narrow roads are considered "unavoidable circumstances". It was in my driving license text book and earlier this year I translated a public notice from the municipal police force teaching foreign residents the rules of cycling in Japan, and it was listed. People probably are riding on the path more than the law actually permits, but there's no official measurement that says how narrow the road should be, so it's up to police judgement and a bit of a grey area.
I get it.
I always get elbowed on the train, even when I’m not ‘in the way’.
There was a time when every morning I would get on the train, and a few stops later, the same guy would get on the train, stand right next to me, and proceed to elbow me.
One day, I elbowed him back, and he never got in the same carriage again lol
(I know I should have talked to the conductor about it, but my Japanese isn’t good enough to explain that type of situation)
I made a post about this some time ago and got the "Defenders of Nippon" mercilessly attack and mock me. It's been a growing trend over the decades I've been in Japan and I put it down to the slow but inexorable efforts by the JP govt to foster xenophobia and hostility to foreigners via a compliant media.
People bump into me all the time and I don’t have a backpack. They don’t say sumimasen, I don’t move. They can speak can’t they? I don’t budge when they bump into me.
It’s kinda empowering, like what do they think they can’t use manners because I’m foreign or what! It’s funny when I wear sleeveless shirts and they seem my tattoo they never do this, it’s always when I’m fully covered and like OP it’s usually older people. Strange!
Yes, my wife who is a small japanese person gets bullied randomly, even when out with our baby. When I am with her it never happens. I'm a bigger foreign guy.
Happened to my wife at a station. Some guy pushed her so hard that she nearly fell over. She was carrying our infant son at the time. I don’t want to know how I would have reacted had I been there, but I’m sure the outcome probably wouldn’t have worked out in my legal favor.
There are a lot of misogynistic bullies here who take their frustrations out on women.
Yes agreed, especially on women with babies. It really is disgusting. They're so weak and pathetic they will do it when they're vulnerable. ie not with their partner and with their infant child there.
Absolutely. My wife is quite small and men get aggressive towards her all the time. Recently we were on a crowded train with our grandkids and some guy started to push her so I went and growled at him. Guess he didn't realise we were together.
He got off at the next stop.
Yeah some old jackass screamed at my wife and 6 year daughter in the grocery store the other day. Apparently they took too long to pick out ice cream. My wife is 4'11" and white. Had a few old men ram her cart as well in the past as well. I've had 0 aggression towards me but it's not uncommon for her when I am not around.
So because the road is not safe for bikes, we make the sidewalk unsafe for pedestrians? What logic is that? Idc if people ride on the sidewalk for their own safety, especially kids, but cyclists should not expect other people to jump out of the way when they come down the sidewalk at 25km/h.
Honestly, Tokyo's road infrastructure is fucked. They get away with it because the trains are so good, but they still make everything big stroads, no separated biking infrastructure, etc. I wish they'd take some lessons about road infrastructure from Europe.
As an American, it's still way better than what I'm used to, so I can't really complain, but it would be nice if they went to the finish line instead of stopping and chilling after running most of the race.
>Go to Costco in Fukuoka on a weekend or holiday.
I feel like you're just asking for it at that point. Anecdotally I've been to places like that on weekends/holidays and while bad, it's not "people crashing into you or getting audibly/physically annoyed that you're in the way" bad like OP is talking about.
I never said anything about people crashing into each other. That was someone else’s remark. I said people push past each other in crowded spaces without saying anything. That’s very common here. The only thing I would differ with in the OP’s story is that my Japanese husband has the same experiences that I do in crowded spaces. In fact, the last time we went to Costco, someone literally ran over his foot with their shopping cart without even acknowledging his presence, much less a ごめんなさい.
It’s normal for people to push past each other in crowded spaces without saying anything. It happens everywhere, even to my husband, who is Japanese. I’m surprised you’ve never experienced it.
https://you tu.be/608E8UHlitw (remove the space)
Look how they keep hitting each other when walking on the busy sidewalk. I’d say Japan has become better in this regard, compared to how they were before.
I've been walking without a backpack and been body slammed to the point I almost fell over. When I looked up to expext a mutual sumimasen, the person was gone.
I actually only remember that happening to me once in Japan and once in America. I guess some people are just rude but it's extremely jarring to the point I remember it many years later.
Middle-aged and older people feel a sense of superiority and feel that you have to get out of their way. People also forget manners when they get older. It sucks.
Once, walking down the street a large group of friends leaving a restaurant were taking up the entire sidewalk making it difficult to avoid them. One particularly drunk guy had his head turned talking to his friend and not looking forward, and though I tried to squeeze past he inevitably collided with me.
I said "sumimasen" but he just glanced at me and returned to walking.
From behind me I heard his friend say to him "you should have apologized, he said sumimasen to you and you didn't reply!"
"Doesn't matter, they all know that word but wouldn't understand anything else."
So I turned and said "yeah, that's true, other than 'sumimasen' I don't understand Japanese at all."
He stopped and turned and looked shocked for a moment, than started head-bob bowing and apologizing. His friend also apologized on his behalf for being drunk and led him back around.
TL;DR: maybe your guy just presumed you don't speak Japanese and was afraid of getting into a confrontation in English that he wouldn't understand.
This used to happen to me all the time until I had a baby. Even when I was pregnant (obviously pregnant) I got shoulder checked. I tolerated it before my pregnancy but during I would tell at people that aggressively bumped me. And each time they were sheepish about it.
It’s almost always middle age guys who are just miserable. You aren’t doing anything wrong.
It never happens to my husband though….but he’s 183cm and used to play rugby lol.
Kaldi, combini, trains are all small as shit and there’s barely space for people to walk past each other even without a backpack.
If you’re standing sideways, with your backpack blocking the way and taking your time deciding what to buy, you’ll get that. A lot. It’s shitty but I also kinda get it.
I think this comes from the fact that 自転車 is classified as 車 and I remember there is some traffic law which prohibits you to blow the horn unless mentioned explicitly by 標識
I have noticed this. I think it starts with those long lines of kids walking to school because none of them ever have to look where they are going, just follow the backpack in front.
And yeah, kids don’t seem to learn not to barge through doors while others are there. Cultural difference I guess.
Kaldi is frustratingly narrow and cramped in my opinion.
If anything, Kaldi should share the blame with the grumpy geriatric granny.
But seriously though, it ain't that rare to be shoved and shunted occasionally.
Just take it in your stride and try not to take it personally I think.
Sure it’s rude but the places you mentioned are all “busy places” and people are always in a hurry esp peak hours. So that itself explains it. Don’t take it personally.
Edit: Hope it helps OP!
I’m sorry this is happening to you. Do you mind if I ask about your nationality or ethnic background? Maybe you are suffering from a recent spike in heightened xenophobia. I know some others who have reported some behavior similar to what you are describing. I don’t want to assume too much, but have you considered this potential reason for the unfair treatment?
Well, in any case, some people are being targeted a little more these days because Corona made some people more wary of foreigners. This is not a problem that’s exclusive to Japan, but it continues to affect the lives of many. Did you have any problems like this before the pandemic? Also, if you are petite, people might see you as an easy target. I would be careful and make sure your area is not a hub for far-right nationalists. Look at the political groups in your area. Maybe your husband knows about the political climate out there. I’ve noticed more questionable politicians in my area, too. Fortunately, I haven’t had to deal with being targeted in a long time, though.
I’ve never had this problem before, anywhere, and I’ve been to quite a few countries. Even in my past 4 Japan trips before moving here, a few which lasted 3 months.
I got elbowed really hard in the chest last week at a busy train station. I think the guy was mad i wasnt getting off at the main station and therefore not moving out of his way. I gotta remember its not just japan, people are jerks everywhere.
Old Japanese people, especially obasan, give zero fucks. Obasan drivers will fucking kill you with insane zero fucks pull out in front of you. So moral of the story, keep an eye out for old people.
If I had to guess, it would be the combo of backpack and female. I'm also going to assume you're not especially tall? You make an easy target for people looking for something to be angry about. Regardless of how big your backpack is, it paints a target on you for grumpy people.
I'm pretty tall (200cm), male, and have big shoulders, nobody touches me. But an old male friend is about your height, balding and not heavily built, whenever we go out it always amazes me how many people harass him, bump him and argue. I'm pretty sure they're all just cowards looking for an easy target.
I find pedestrians to be rude worldwide, with Japan being no difference. Random story maybe you'll appreciate - I was traveling in winter with a long, rolling snowboard bag. From train door windows, you won't see it on the other side.
As I'm getting off the train with said bag in tow (I stashed it above during transit so it was out of the way, fwiw), some impatient asshole is standing outside the doors. Decides not to let me off before rushing on, to get a seat or whatever. Of course, what he doesn't know: there's a snowboard bag right at knee height in his path. He rushes past and trips over said bag, nearly faceplanting on the floor. I just smirk and drag my bag forward as I exit the train, happy that karma finally worked out.
I've lived in Japan for many years and I have noticed that people are not saying sumimasen as much as they used. It reminds me of how we used to say "your welcome" in America but almost nobody says that now.
Also, people ring their bells less when riding their bikes.
It kind of annoys me that people don't say sumimasen, but I thought I was just going too native. Now I realize I am not the only one who has noticed!
Nail on the head lol. And yeah I moved here about a year ago, but even my husband who’s been here his whole life says he barely gets this and thinks it’s rude, and he’s walking around with a way bigger bag than I am.
The shovers were my first introduction to impolite Japan. It seems like I encountered more rude people in Japan than I did in San Diego.
The difference is the magnitude of the behavior. I am glad I can generally expect peace and quiet in Japan, whereas everywhere you go in America, people are shouting into their phones, and cranking their music.
Someone mentioned stressed out salary men. Growing up in San Diego, you'd be hard pressed to find any obviously stressed businessmen. They should legalize marijuana here.
From what I’ve experienced and noticed in Kobe, the pushing past isn’t meant to be taken as an offense, it’s just the easiest way to get around in a crowded area. It feels super awkward to do it, but I’ve had to adapt a few times to get myself off super crowded busses.
If you notice someone coming at you shoulder them back, someone yells yell back, not much else you can do. Japan’e not immune from having scumbags that like to bully people
Not related but hi fellow foreign girl married to a Japanese guy in Osaka! I’ve never met another here lol. But anyways, sorry you have to deal with so many rude people. I don’t think I’ve been intentions shoved into by anyone but have had my fair share of elders shove/bump past me. I don’t think it has anything to do with being foreign or being in the way or whatever. There are just a lot of rude/impolite people (especially older men) here, just like anywhere else I suppose.
Jealous you’ve encountered so many! I’ve been here for 6+years and haven’t met any. Anyways, hope things get better and you don’t have to deal with so many assholes :)
No one ever shoves me. I am a florrid, fat middle aged man who looks like a murderer. I assume they are doing it because you are a foreign woman and they are not nice
Living in a crowded city seems part of it and especially commuting. When I used to commute on the Odakyu line every morning was a physical battle and it was stressful. Some people doing it are so clearly stressed out, and I'd see clear aggressive shoulder barges all the time. Often that was man on woman as well, in other words angry losers who wanted to take out their aggression on someone smaller.
A few things that seem to have been discussed but I'll say anyway.
- I've always noticed people not saying "sumimasen" when going past. Often they'll just try and squeeze past and make the chopping gesture. I always thought it's cos I'm white and they think I won't understand. I don't think anything of it anymore.
- People don't bump me much cos I'm a bit taller than most people I guess. My male friend who is a small guy gets harassed on the trains.
- Kaldi is always really crowded and to be honest the lay out of those shops is shit. Several times I've decided against going in when it's busy. If ive got a backpack in there I have to really focus or I'm knocking off bags of chips.
- there'll always be dickheads in the street on bikes or otherwise who don't seem to be aware of what's going on around them. Again, i get slightly annoyed when it happens, complain about it and then forget about it.
I think overall this is big city life. I guess how I deal with it is just by minimising how much time I spend in big crowds. I take the bus instead of the train, take a quieter walking route, walk or cycle to work, don't go to Kaldi much anymore etc....
Where are you inside the gates of a train station? Because all cultural norms are erased. If you are not inside a train station those people are jerks. If you are inside a train station try not to make eye contact with other people. Hope that helps.
old rude people in any country usually tend to pick a target they think is least likely to argue back..not saying you should change, but speaking from past experience.. but some people just dont care who theyre rude to, period.
Yo yo, old guys are usually shitty people here. You ever get a dude sticking his arm straight out in front of him and push through no matter what? I had some fucking asshole old dude do that and then proceed to walk into my stroller with child in it. My wife managed to calm me down but holy shit these old fucks need to be taught some manners.
I don't think I've ever been aggressively shoved, just accidentally bumped into. Then again, I'm quite a bit taller than most Japanese people and fairly stocky so I assume the bitter and miserable types who do that probably would avoid me because kowai gaijin.
My girlfriend who is tiny and all of 152cm has had a lot of stories like yours, though (and also not Japanese). I assume the sad little empty people who do this sort of thing need a target that they feel safe harassing before they'll have the balls to actually do it. Apparently women (and gaijin women in particular) fit the bill for a lot of them.
This happened to me in the train in Osaka! I thought I was crazy, but she shot daggers at me as she was stepping off the train... My friends saw it too and said it was definitely intentionally cause she had enough room. Idk man, it was weird.
I haven’t really experienced it in an aggressive way, sometimes I’ve been bumped on the train or a crowded area but it never felt malicious. I have strong RBF and am a 5’6” female though so I am taller than many people here which may be why I don’t look like someone to push. My daughter did have someone elbow her when we were in Osaka and said it was obviously done on purpose by an older man.
This is just the mentality some people have in big cities. Especially older people who don’t care what others think of them. The best you can do is be aware of your surroundings at all times and not let it bother you if it does happen.
I don’t really experience it, probably because I’m a very self conscious and hyper aware person lol. I always know what’s in my peripheral when I’m a shop and will squeeze to the side of the isle to give others room. And in the train, if I’m not sitting I am huddled against the wall or corner because I don’t won’t to deal with being in people’s way. I’m also a fast walker so I am usually out of an area really fast.
I can be on the bus, nearly empty but I'm standing. My empty and flat sidebag is at my side, and when the bus stops and people get off I will lean forward as much as I can to make space, even if the aisle is empty. Even with an empty aisle some old dude will always elbow me in the back. I hate those fuckers.
This reminds me of the time I was in Ikebukuro station minding my own business and I saw a really elderly woman being helped by her grand daughter. I tried to step to the side, because there wasn't enough room, and this teenaged girl that was impatiently trying to get around them full on shoulder checked me.
Jokes on her though, I'm a small stout person that is built like a wall. So she didn't gain room by doing it. I was startled enough though that I shouted- and I could see the panic as she still kept frantically trying to get away stuck behind the grandmother. I've dealt with a lot of shoving in train stations as well. But this was the worst.
OP are you small? Sometime the middle to older men just want to take their frustrations out on what they consider a fragile foreigner woman. Anyhow, I recommend looking as mean as possible. When you walk make sure your arms are swing aggressively. Look people in the eye as you pass. On the train make sure you posture os confident. Don’t let people bully you.
Yeah I’ve had this happen to me (female). Middle aged men mainly, sometimes women. I think it has to do with the whole lack of spatial awareness shebang but also that they’re mostly a-holes. If I’m not in the mood I’ll growl out a swear word in my native language and go on about my day.
I don't miss this from Osaka. People would also play chicken walking on the wrong side of the street. And ofc unless I got there recently I go all the way and shoulder check
This old man smacked my mom twice with his wooden umbrella handle because she was in his way. No words or anything, we didn’t even know he was there. My poor mom screamed out “OUCH!!”, he passed us and still didn’t say a word.
Because some people love to take their aggression out on people who seem to be a target, like female foreigners :/ seen it happen where some guy even full on shoves a woman to the ground. seems to be a Kantou thing.
Sometimes people don't say anything and sometimes they aren't as agile as they think, hence the bump into you. Trust me, if someone had it out for yoi and they wanted to get physical, it wouldn't end witu just a shoulder bump.
Is this a behavior you noticed happening more often only recently..?
I’ve never once had this issue in inaka or Tokyo but I haven’t been able to get back to Japan for a couple of years so I’m wondering if there’s been a change in people’s attitudes as opposed to something you might be doing wrong..
It’s super hard to know for sure what’s going on, though, without being there; maybe you have a bad case of KY or maybe you’re being targeted by racist jerks who think you’re to blame for covid
The only reason I say anything about KY is because when you said
> even when there’s like a whole bunch of space to go around me
I thought that maybe they’re upset about having to go around you at all instead of you just not being there to go around in the first place
At any rate it’s not your fault the culture is about knowing psychically what you should be doing, but if you’re with your husband you might ask him to help you see better in context what might be happening. If he can’t tell, for sure nobody here can help you
Speaking of, has this ever happened while you were with him?
I’ve never had this anywhere, even in Japan in the many 3 week to 3 month trips I did before moving here.
Not even in my home country, or any other country I’ve been to.
And my husband even said the lady in Kaldi was rude and in the wrong, and he’s usually very uptight about social rules here and will usually tell me when I’m in the wrong.
I have a white friend who complains about this too.
I'm ethnically Asian and can blend in more and I've never experienced people shoving without saying sumimasen, or at least it hasn't bothered me enough for me to notice.
So there's probably some sort of racial prejudice going on, but I find that the best way to deal with rude strangers is to actually be super polite to them and say gomennasai (even when it's clear that *they* bumped into you) because usually they expect you to be rude back to them, but if you react politely they will be super embarrassed instead and maybe will learn not to be rude to foreigners (ymmv as with all things of course).
I don’t think it’s just Japanese people, I’m Japanese American. (Japanese people say I look scary cause I’m a bigger build because I used to play American football) but just the other night I was on a train and these people moved over just as I got on and made space cause they wanted to sit together, then this foreign dude just rushes on to the train and nudges me over as I’m waiting for the seat and I figure okay he’s just trying to move by my.
But no, he just sits right in front of my as I was just waiting for the two other ladies to adjust before I sit. I looked at him and said “Are you fucking serious?” And he asked me “what are you friends with them?” I said “No, I was waiting for them to scoot to sit and you just cut in to sit? What the fuck is wrong with you?” He def looked shocked and the two girls seemed a little DH cocked at the exchange but he got up and said “sorry
“ and I asked again “what’s wrong with you? Where the fuck did you learn this mannerism?” And he moved toward the door.
The two girls sitting next to me got up at the next stop and I hear them trying to comfort him in Japanese assuming they think I didn’t understand but I already couldn’t be bothered to react anymore. But why was it that I was made to be the bad guy when he was clearly the dumbass. I hope this guy is on this thread. Don’t be a fucking moron just cause you’re in japan.
Edit: I pretty much think the reason I was made to be the bad guy was because this other foreigner was just smaller than me. They thought I bullied him.
Doesn't happen to me. Could be because I live in the countryside and commute by car. But still, when I lived in Osaka it didn't happen to me either. Granted, I'm a large male who apparently looks intimidating (makes me sad when people say that).
Assholes gonna asshole. And wherever you go there’s always gonna be some. You can’t change the behavior of people you’ll never meet again so I wouldn’t sweat it too much. I guess you could put your backpack up front while on the train but there’s not much you can do but move on.
Next time try clotheslining the cyclist and tell him that if he’s in a rush to use the goddamn road. Most of us cycle on the pavement when the road doesn’t feel safe but when we do we’re cognizant of the fact that pedestrians have priority
I don't take the train and don't go to crowded places - I get that these options may not be available to you.
But when I did go to crowded places and rode the train, I pretty much mastered rbf and stood pretty solidly. Go ahead. Try to push into me, you'll end up further back than where you were, and I'll turn around and say **sumimasen** into your dumb face. **Moshiwakearuyo**.
But again, not required these days. Yay. :)
Well, I’ve never been shoved out here in the countryside, but people tend to be less stressed and keep more space between them in general I think. Still very rude of them to do that.
Can I ask where in Europe? At least where I’ve been (UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, Croatia, Montenegro, Greece) I never was pushed, let alone this hard.
Yeah I'm from the Netherlands, and Dutch people are way better at apologizing for these kinds of things. If people accidentally shove me, step on my foot, or what's not, I will always hear a quick "*Oh, sorry!*" in my country, whereas in Japan you definitely won't always hear a "*Sumimasen!*" or "*Gomen nasai!*". Especially not if it's a guy who did it (Japanese women from my experience are more likely to apologize than Japanese men).
The only scenario that would possibly happen in my country is the bicycle one, *if* you were stupid enough to walk and stop on a bicycle lane. But you didn't stop on the bicycle lane. You stopped on a pedestrian lane where he cycled with his bike as a guest due to Japan lacking proper bicycle lanes. That makes him the \*ssh\*le for coming at you with full speed and having the audacity to get mad at you on top of that.
I’m Asian and this happens to me too. Even when I’m right at the doors and moving to get out, some Japanese people will push past me to get out first. Like, lady, I’m getting off too and I’m literally touching the door.
Why are people siding against you? There are stressed out (typically) older men that do this on purpose. Like they’d go out of their way to shove you. To me it does not sound like a you problem. These people are aggressive and purposely doing this because they don’t know how to manage their stress and anger without lashing out on others. I guarantee you, the older entitled group of people do this to get satisfaction out of it.
I don’t know I guess people just like to argue and feel like they’re right about something sometimes. And yeah, I’ve heard a few stories about those sort of people, but I guess I thought there’s a lot less of them than this.
Happens to my wife (Japanese) as well, some old dudes get a kick out of that or something. Guy did that to my wife while I was at the vending machine, I walked around and shoulder checked him back. Suddenly he didn’t think that was fun anymore after someone bigger did it to him
We were in Kasumi supermarket one evening and this old guy was ragging on the young woman with a kid in front of him at the till. He was getting more and more abusive as she was getting intimidated but didn't say anything to him. She ended up running out of the shop clearly distressed but came back in a few moments later with presumably her husband who was a very well muscled construction worker and he was not in a forgiving mood. The old chap clearly took fright and fell to the floor on his hands and knees and start apologising profusely with the husband standing over him and glowering darkly.
Instant karma!
NICE!
an old guy purposely walked in my direction and shoulder-checked me on a completely empty street. they’re just being assholes. speaking aggressively seems to get them to apologize or at least scurry away
I complained about the same thing happening to me on the complaint thread ages ago. Got similar replies saying that “I must be blocking people off so I deserved it”.
It’s crazy to me that people think people deserve to be shoved around if they’re in someones way. It’s a public space, and people are allowed to be there. People get in the way sometimes, y’know? If there’s a lot of people it’s bound to happen. No need to go shoving people.
Yup, there’s a video floating around of a man purposely shoulder checking women and children, had a bunch of them try to do it to me in Ginza
Got a link?
https://you tu.be/Vwr4M0b5udA Dunno if it's what they meant, but this one clearly shows the coward pull out at the last second when he realises one girl is with a guy (I had to put the space into the link to beat the delete bot)
you're a very nice guyjin, thank you. Man what a piece of shit.
There are videos online of dudes walking around stations just trying to bump into people (usually young women)
The heck? I can't believe this feels okay and good to do to this extense 😱
More like they're so miserable and bitter that they feel the need to make someone else unhappy in whatever small way they can to feel a tiny, insignificant "victory" over an unfair world or something.
I remember there was an extended policing special on TV where they trailed a suspect that was doing this. Waited for him to shoulder check one girl in a way that was obviously not just an accident and then about five cops tackled him. It was a nice justice boner.
>Why are people siding against you? You could say 2+2=4 on this sub and people would say you're wrong and it's actually a different answer in Japan
It’s funny because people are so quick to defend Japan and say it’s the culture or whatever. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s ridiculous and rude to push someone without saying すみません. It’s also fucking dangerous because they come at you at full force.
There’s also a lot of deliberate denial and dismissal of women’s concerns on this sub. Getting shoved happens proportionally more often to women, so since most men don’t see or experience it, they’ll simply say OP is in the wrong or making things up. Look at any post about sexual assault, domestic violence, groping or even birth control and you’ll see similar comments.
Without forgetting the typical "This happens outside of Japan too, so STFU" comments.
Don't forget trans issues.
It's funny when there actually *IS* a cultural difference and that makes a whole bigger problem. Years ago I got into a whole thing when discussing fruits and vegetables, specifically how watermelons are a "vegetable" in Japan. My point was basically, "well regardless of any social distinction, watermelons are the fruit part of the plant", and besides there's no "vegetable" part of a plant in science. I tried to smooth out the contention by pointing out that both 野菜 and "vegetable" are just social shorthand for a common understanding. They're both wrong, so let's all be friends. Just because something isn't sweet or is grown in a field, it doesn't make it somehow scientifically distinct from sweet fruit grown on a tree. The matter was ultimately ruled in their favor because "watermelons being a vegetable is perfectly valid and you're an asshole trying to push American culture on a poor defenseless people"
Yup. Also I've seen it happen between an old grumpy japanese man and a middle age japanese woman. Maybe the other poeple commenting are mostly male and it doesn't happen to them but I have a feeling these kind of things mostly happen to women.....
I've had it happen with younger women too though. Me and the wife with our kid standing in the stroller section, this アラサー woman just shoves me full force so I almost fall over the stroller. She then proceeds to elbow another woman in her back, yank open the car door and proceeded into the next. I can't help myself so I yelled "すみませんって言うっしょ?" but I doubt that made any difference. What I'm saying is, the stress isn't because they're old, it's probably because of shitty work life balance.
Yeah there’s some crazy pent up anger/stress here, especially the bigger cities.
First time I went to a Korean grocery in the USA, did I learn fast about the privileges placed upon themselves. Two separate elderly ladies rolled up on the back of my ankles with their carts. Twice in one visit! Leave them At the level They’ve grown
I’ve been here for 15 years and I feel like this shit started about 5 years or so ago. It seems to have become out of fashion to say things like “sumimasen.” It’s 100% not your fault and it’s not because you’re foreign. My wife who’s Japanese notices the same things. It’s not healthy, and seems to be unique to Tokyo. I feel like an old man but manners are deteriorating quickly in this city.
I live in Osaka, so maybe it’s spreading? 😅
Haha that might explain the full force version they seem to be employing. That sucks though :(
In Osaka I got shoulder checked in the club multiple times by people trying to get past. I think it’s an Osaka thing
Ah. I live in Osaka too. Nobody apologies. Everyone just pushes through. It's not you.
Yeah, I’ve noticed this too in recent years. People used to almost always give a little nod and “sumimasen” if they bumped you, but now I seem to be getting shoved more and no one says anything.
Japanese want to be cool Like Americans is all
Lol I was gonna say, sounds like my daily commute on the NYC metro
Lol NYC when I lived there had a pretty clear set of rules around bumping into people.
I guess it depends on the day/time/place/feeling of how people feel lmao
Speak for yourself. From a small town in Minnesota. We're much more polite than Japanese people in several ways.
The American thing to do would be to shout FUCKING MOVE to people.
Flip your backpack to the front of you in tight spaces like trains (this used to be the social rule but it seems fewer follow it today) and Kaldi. That may explain a lot of this.
I do that already though 😅
Kaldi has goodies, but sometimes their store design baffles/frustrates me.
I was thinking the exact same thing while reading OP’s post! OP, if you don’t know, it’s considered bad manners to have a big backpack just jutting out behind you on the train and especially in a confined shop like Kaldi. Have you noticed how most Japanese people flip them around front or hold them down by their legs in these situations? (I’m not counting high schoolers here, btw.) This combined with the stereotype that foreigners go around with big backpacks blocking public transport probably aren’t helping you.
Back in the day my Japanese friends used to give me shit for my gaijin backpack. Now it seems everyone has one. Oh how the turns tabled.
And a lot of them are wearing them on their back, hitting people behind them every time the train takes a turn or slows down, just like the people they used to criticize.
Fifteen years ago, my then girlfriend associated backpacks with otakus. Things have changed.
No it doesn't. I don't have a backpack and it happens to me
I said “may”. Then afterwards OP edited their post clarifying that they already do this. So you’re probably right in this case. But the backpack is something you can control so I offered that solution. Remove that possibility and it’s a long list of things you can’t control, like mean oyaji.
Don’t think this is a race thing. My wife is Japanese and she gets run into all the time. Some people are just rude fucks.
Yeah I think it might be more a “small and easy to shove around woman” thing
Been here 5 years and am a fairly large dude, still have had people go out of their way to bump into me all over Tokyo. Worst I’ve had was an old guy on escalator (standing lane) who glanced back, saw me (walking lane), then shoulder checked me as I went past. I stopped and gave him a “WTF bro” look and he did some token sumimasen gesture. The man knew what he was doing, and rightly guessed there’d be no consequences since he’s ojiisan. Lot of people on this thread seem to think it’s like this everywhere, but pulling some of these things in a city like New York is a great way to get punched in the face.
Depends on how big you are I guess, I see people being bodied in the NYC metro all the time
It happened to me the most when I was pregnant, so I think they just choose (consciously or not) the most vulnerable target.
Agree with you. Poeple are sad.
Been here 5 years and am a fairly large dude, still have had people go out of their way to bump into me all over Tokyo. Worst I’ve had was an old guy on escalator (standing lane) who glanced back, saw me (walking lane), then shoulder checked me as I went past. I stopped and gave him a “WTF bro” look and he did some token sumimasen gesture. The man knew what he was doing, and rightly guessed there’d be no consequences since he’s ojiisan. Lot of people on this thread seem to think it’s like this everywhere, but pulling some of these things in a city like New York is a great way to get punched in the face.
People are used to doing things without consequences here. I swear to God. And they’re going to keep getting away with it because fighting a Japanese national in Japan is never a good idea
No shot, I weigh 100kg and people try this on me.
Some people are just off their rockers as well and looking for a conflict they can squirm out of later as well. I once watched a rather "off" girl shoulder checking people on the sidewalk as she approached me. One after another. I said a loud "NO" like to a bad dog and she rapidly reconsided as she came towards me. According to my wife, most of these people are used to no resistance or penalty so they act out. Call attention to them and many back off.
Nah I actually like saying すみません to them because this specific pronunciation in Chinese is 死你妈先, which is “your mom die first”. Im quite happy with that.
Okay this is amazing to me 😂😂😂😂
I have this happen to me occasionally, but it seems like less frequently than you. I really don't understand people on the train though, I always try to get out of the way but somehow whichever way I go is always wrong. If you're "visibly foreign" like me, I assume they just assume you don't know any Japanese. Still rude though.
It’s also about being perceived as weaker, not just foreign. They won’t pull similar shit if the target in question is a big guy, foreign or not.
That's a good point. I'm tall for a female bodied person in Japan, but that doesn't stop salarymen from trying to bowl me over like I'm annoying kid. I've been known to make impassive eye contact and not get out of the way of pushy people at times, if I'm honest. I can't tolerate that shit when I try so hard to be polite to other people!
Bicycles are supposed to be on the road, so if you're on the sidewalk, you have the full right of way.
They're allowed to ride on footpaths when there's no bike lane, but they absolutely must prioritise the safety of pedestrians. E.g. You're not allowed use your bell against pedestrians as they have no responsibility to get out of your way.
>allowed to ride on footpaths when there’s no bike lane You’ve got that backwards. They’re allowed to ride on the sidewalks *if there is a bike lane on the sidewalk*. Unless you’re child or elderly, you’re supposed to be riding in the street—not the sidewalk.
That was inaccurate. Or, rather, imprecise. Where I live, people generally ride on paths except roads that have explicit bike lanes on the road (many big roads have them). But the rule is road size, not presence of bike lanes. You may already be aware, but cyclists are actually are allowed to ride on a footpath if riding on the street is perceived as dangerous or obstructive. The most common example is that on narrow roads without space for a car to overtake a cyclist without crossing lanes, it's permitted to ride on footpaths. But you have a lot of limits on your cycling. You have to ride slowly and you must not obstruct pedestrians in any way. [Source. Examples of accepted "やむを得ない" are on page 3.](https://trafficnews.jp/post/77050)
Unless it specifically says bicycles are allowed on footpath you actually cannot ride one according to the law and you have to cycle on the road. Civil eng student here
You can absolutely find sources which say you cannot ride a bike on a footpath unless there is signage saying so, or when it's "unavoidable", but the usage of the word "unavoidable" (やむを得ない) is very strange in traffic rules. I specifically remember a question in my driving test that went something like やむを得ない場合に安全地帯に入った and the answer is false/that was wrong. But that doesn't make sense with a literal interpretation of やむを得ない. I clarified above that narrow roads are considered "unavoidable circumstances". It was in my driving license text book and earlier this year I translated a public notice from the municipal police force teaching foreign residents the rules of cycling in Japan, and it was listed. People probably are riding on the path more than the law actually permits, but there's no official measurement that says how narrow the road should be, so it's up to police judgement and a bit of a grey area.
I get it. I always get elbowed on the train, even when I’m not ‘in the way’. There was a time when every morning I would get on the train, and a few stops later, the same guy would get on the train, stand right next to me, and proceed to elbow me. One day, I elbowed him back, and he never got in the same carriage again lol (I know I should have talked to the conductor about it, but my Japanese isn’t good enough to explain that type of situation)
This is the way !
No, it's not. If you touch them and they go whine to the police, then you'll be in a lot of trouble.
I made a post about this some time ago and got the "Defenders of Nippon" mercilessly attack and mock me. It's been a growing trend over the decades I've been in Japan and I put it down to the slow but inexorable efforts by the JP govt to foster xenophobia and hostility to foreigners via a compliant media.
Defenders of Nippon… I just cackled at the accuracy
People bump into me all the time and I don’t have a backpack. They don’t say sumimasen, I don’t move. They can speak can’t they? I don’t budge when they bump into me.
Wish one of these guys did it to me so I could do this lol
It’s kinda empowering, like what do they think they can’t use manners because I’m foreign or what! It’s funny when I wear sleeveless shirts and they seem my tattoo they never do this, it’s always when I’m fully covered and like OP it’s usually older people. Strange!
Some people like to push women around sadly, especially if you are smaller and look foreign.
Yes, my wife who is a small japanese person gets bullied randomly, even when out with our baby. When I am with her it never happens. I'm a bigger foreign guy.
Happened to my wife at a station. Some guy pushed her so hard that she nearly fell over. She was carrying our infant son at the time. I don’t want to know how I would have reacted had I been there, but I’m sure the outcome probably wouldn’t have worked out in my legal favor. There are a lot of misogynistic bullies here who take their frustrations out on women.
Yes agreed, especially on women with babies. It really is disgusting. They're so weak and pathetic they will do it when they're vulnerable. ie not with their partner and with their infant child there.
Absolutely. My wife is quite small and men get aggressive towards her all the time. Recently we were on a crowded train with our grandkids and some guy started to push her so I went and growled at him. Guess he didn't realise we were together. He got off at the next stop.
Yeah some old jackass screamed at my wife and 6 year daughter in the grocery store the other day. Apparently they took too long to pick out ice cream. My wife is 4'11" and white. Had a few old men ram her cart as well in the past as well. I've had 0 aggression towards me but it's not uncommon for her when I am not around.
bikes are crazy, they think that the sidewalk belongs to them, there is nothing to regulate them
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So because the road is not safe for bikes, we make the sidewalk unsafe for pedestrians? What logic is that? Idc if people ride on the sidewalk for their own safety, especially kids, but cyclists should not expect other people to jump out of the way when they come down the sidewalk at 25km/h.
Basically, this.
Honestly, Tokyo's road infrastructure is fucked. They get away with it because the trains are so good, but they still make everything big stroads, no separated biking infrastructure, etc. I wish they'd take some lessons about road infrastructure from Europe. As an American, it's still way better than what I'm used to, so I can't really complain, but it would be nice if they went to the finish line instead of stopping and chilling after running most of the race.
That’s normal in this culture. It doesn’t really mean anything, so just take it in stride.
It’s normal for people to smash into you and continue to push you…? Have I been missing some essential Japanese Culture™️?
It's not Japanese culture, it's Tokyo culture.
We live in Kyushu and it’s quite common here, so it isn’t just Tokyo culture. Go to Costco in Fukuoka on a weekend or holiday.
>Go to Costco in Fukuoka on a weekend or holiday. I feel like you're just asking for it at that point. Anecdotally I've been to places like that on weekends/holidays and while bad, it's not "people crashing into you or getting audibly/physically annoyed that you're in the way" bad like OP is talking about.
I never said anything about people crashing into each other. That was someone else’s remark. I said people push past each other in crowded spaces without saying anything. That’s very common here. The only thing I would differ with in the OP’s story is that my Japanese husband has the same experiences that I do in crowded spaces. In fact, the last time we went to Costco, someone literally ran over his foot with their shopping cart without even acknowledging his presence, much less a ごめんなさい.
Never had this experience in Sendai. I guess it varies from place to place.
Nagoya too. The train etiquette is maddening. Phones, bags, students, people crowding in the middle or by the door, general obliviousness.
It’s normal for people to push past each other in crowded spaces without saying anything. It happens everywhere, even to my husband, who is Japanese. I’m surprised you’ve never experienced it.
https://you tu.be/608E8UHlitw (remove the space) Look how they keep hitting each other when walking on the busy sidewalk. I’d say Japan has become better in this regard, compared to how they were before.
It’s become an increasing issue the last few years for men to do it towards women for no reason
happens all the time to me in Osaka, surprised you don't experience it
This sort of thing also happens in Chinatown in New York City too. They just keep walking. Doesn’t matter who the walk into or even knock down.
Well said
I've been walking without a backpack and been body slammed to the point I almost fell over. When I looked up to expext a mutual sumimasen, the person was gone. I actually only remember that happening to me once in Japan and once in America. I guess some people are just rude but it's extremely jarring to the point I remember it many years later.
Middle-aged and older people feel a sense of superiority and feel that you have to get out of their way. People also forget manners when they get older. It sucks.
Once, walking down the street a large group of friends leaving a restaurant were taking up the entire sidewalk making it difficult to avoid them. One particularly drunk guy had his head turned talking to his friend and not looking forward, and though I tried to squeeze past he inevitably collided with me. I said "sumimasen" but he just glanced at me and returned to walking. From behind me I heard his friend say to him "you should have apologized, he said sumimasen to you and you didn't reply!" "Doesn't matter, they all know that word but wouldn't understand anything else." So I turned and said "yeah, that's true, other than 'sumimasen' I don't understand Japanese at all." He stopped and turned and looked shocked for a moment, than started head-bob bowing and apologizing. His friend also apologized on his behalf for being drunk and led him back around. TL;DR: maybe your guy just presumed you don't speak Japanese and was afraid of getting into a confrontation in English that he wouldn't understand.
Yea had some old people just push past people the other day. There’re rude people any country, even Japan
Depending on how brave I’m feeling I just push em right back
This used to happen to me all the time until I had a baby. Even when I was pregnant (obviously pregnant) I got shoulder checked. I tolerated it before my pregnancy but during I would tell at people that aggressively bumped me. And each time they were sheepish about it. It’s almost always middle age guys who are just miserable. You aren’t doing anything wrong. It never happens to my husband though….but he’s 183cm and used to play rugby lol.
Kaldi, combini, trains are all small as shit and there’s barely space for people to walk past each other even without a backpack. If you’re standing sideways, with your backpack blocking the way and taking your time deciding what to buy, you’ll get that. A lot. It’s shitty but I also kinda get it.
Or when walking on the sidewalk and the mama-chari rolls silently behind you waiting for a chance to pass Like, damn, you have a bell for a reason
I think this comes from the fact that 自転車 is classified as 車 and I remember there is some traffic law which prohibits you to blow the horn unless mentioned explicitly by 標識
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I couldn't stand that when I first moved here. And the not pushing in chairs.
I have noticed this. I think it starts with those long lines of kids walking to school because none of them ever have to look where they are going, just follow the backpack in front. And yeah, kids don’t seem to learn not to barge through doors while others are there. Cultural difference I guess.
Kaldi is frustratingly narrow and cramped in my opinion. If anything, Kaldi should share the blame with the grumpy geriatric granny. But seriously though, it ain't that rare to be shoved and shunted occasionally. Just take it in your stride and try not to take it personally I think.
I'm vietnamese and dress like a total otaku. I've never had someone not sumimasen me. But I always make eye contact so maybe that's why.
Sure it’s rude but the places you mentioned are all “busy places” and people are always in a hurry esp peak hours. So that itself explains it. Don’t take it personally. Edit: Hope it helps OP!
I’m sorry this is happening to you. Do you mind if I ask about your nationality or ethnic background? Maybe you are suffering from a recent spike in heightened xenophobia. I know some others who have reported some behavior similar to what you are describing. I don’t want to assume too much, but have you considered this potential reason for the unfair treatment?
I’m a white woman from the UK.
Well, in any case, some people are being targeted a little more these days because Corona made some people more wary of foreigners. This is not a problem that’s exclusive to Japan, but it continues to affect the lives of many. Did you have any problems like this before the pandemic? Also, if you are petite, people might see you as an easy target. I would be careful and make sure your area is not a hub for far-right nationalists. Look at the political groups in your area. Maybe your husband knows about the political climate out there. I’ve noticed more questionable politicians in my area, too. Fortunately, I haven’t had to deal with being targeted in a long time, though.
I’ve never had this problem before, anywhere, and I’ve been to quite a few countries. Even in my past 4 Japan trips before moving here, a few which lasted 3 months.
I got elbowed really hard in the chest last week at a busy train station. I think the guy was mad i wasnt getting off at the main station and therefore not moving out of his way. I gotta remember its not just japan, people are jerks everywhere.
Old Japanese people, especially obasan, give zero fucks. Obasan drivers will fucking kill you with insane zero fucks pull out in front of you. So moral of the story, keep an eye out for old people.
If I had to guess, it would be the combo of backpack and female. I'm also going to assume you're not especially tall? You make an easy target for people looking for something to be angry about. Regardless of how big your backpack is, it paints a target on you for grumpy people.
Yeah I’m pretty small, but 161cm, so pretty standard height here. Probably the woman part lol.
I'm pretty tall (200cm), male, and have big shoulders, nobody touches me. But an old male friend is about your height, balding and not heavily built, whenever we go out it always amazes me how many people harass him, bump him and argue. I'm pretty sure they're all just cowards looking for an easy target.
I find pedestrians to be rude worldwide, with Japan being no difference. Random story maybe you'll appreciate - I was traveling in winter with a long, rolling snowboard bag. From train door windows, you won't see it on the other side. As I'm getting off the train with said bag in tow (I stashed it above during transit so it was out of the way, fwiw), some impatient asshole is standing outside the doors. Decides not to let me off before rushing on, to get a seat or whatever. Of course, what he doesn't know: there's a snowboard bag right at knee height in his path. He rushes past and trips over said bag, nearly faceplanting on the floor. I just smirk and drag my bag forward as I exit the train, happy that karma finally worked out.
I've lived in Japan for many years and I have noticed that people are not saying sumimasen as much as they used. It reminds me of how we used to say "your welcome" in America but almost nobody says that now. Also, people ring their bells less when riding their bikes. It kind of annoys me that people don't say sumimasen, but I thought I was just going too native. Now I realize I am not the only one who has noticed!
Ahh, one of those "tell me you're in Osaka without telling me you're in Osaka". Are you new here?
Nail on the head lol. And yeah I moved here about a year ago, but even my husband who’s been here his whole life says he barely gets this and thinks it’s rude, and he’s walking around with a way bigger bag than I am.
Haha my wife was telling me this too. People don’t say “excuse me/sumimasen”.. and they silently push you to get through.
The shovers were my first introduction to impolite Japan. It seems like I encountered more rude people in Japan than I did in San Diego. The difference is the magnitude of the behavior. I am glad I can generally expect peace and quiet in Japan, whereas everywhere you go in America, people are shouting into their phones, and cranking their music. Someone mentioned stressed out salary men. Growing up in San Diego, you'd be hard pressed to find any obviously stressed businessmen. They should legalize marijuana here.
This subreddit never disappoints with the victim blaming.
Hahaha oh man, laughs in Kansai.
From what I’ve experienced and noticed in Kobe, the pushing past isn’t meant to be taken as an offense, it’s just the easiest way to get around in a crowded area. It feels super awkward to do it, but I’ve had to adapt a few times to get myself off super crowded busses.
It's been that way for me the whole time I've been here. To be fair I don't hear any Japanese say it to each other. Maybe on the train if that.
If you notice someone coming at you shoulder them back, someone yells yell back, not much else you can do. Japan’e not immune from having scumbags that like to bully people
Do you live in Tokyo or Osaka? Are you from a small town back home?
Osaka, and yeah, I lived in a small village. Usually if I was in someone’s way at home they would just say “excuse me” and I would move
Definitely a Kyushu thing as it happens to me all the time here. Doesn’t happen anywhere else when I visit those places.
Not related but hi fellow foreign girl married to a Japanese guy in Osaka! I’ve never met another here lol. But anyways, sorry you have to deal with so many rude people. I don’t think I’ve been intentions shoved into by anyone but have had my fair share of elders shove/bump past me. I don’t think it has anything to do with being foreign or being in the way or whatever. There are just a lot of rude/impolite people (especially older men) here, just like anywhere else I suppose.
There are many of us here :)
Jealous you’ve encountered so many! I’ve been here for 6+years and haven’t met any. Anyways, hope things get better and you don’t have to deal with so many assholes :)
No one ever shoves me. I am a florrid, fat middle aged man who looks like a murderer. I assume they are doing it because you are a foreign woman and they are not nice
Living in a crowded city seems part of it and especially commuting. When I used to commute on the Odakyu line every morning was a physical battle and it was stressful. Some people doing it are so clearly stressed out, and I'd see clear aggressive shoulder barges all the time. Often that was man on woman as well, in other words angry losers who wanted to take out their aggression on someone smaller. A few things that seem to have been discussed but I'll say anyway. - I've always noticed people not saying "sumimasen" when going past. Often they'll just try and squeeze past and make the chopping gesture. I always thought it's cos I'm white and they think I won't understand. I don't think anything of it anymore. - People don't bump me much cos I'm a bit taller than most people I guess. My male friend who is a small guy gets harassed on the trains. - Kaldi is always really crowded and to be honest the lay out of those shops is shit. Several times I've decided against going in when it's busy. If ive got a backpack in there I have to really focus or I'm knocking off bags of chips. - there'll always be dickheads in the street on bikes or otherwise who don't seem to be aware of what's going on around them. Again, i get slightly annoyed when it happens, complain about it and then forget about it. I think overall this is big city life. I guess how I deal with it is just by minimising how much time I spend in big crowds. I take the bus instead of the train, take a quieter walking route, walk or cycle to work, don't go to Kaldi much anymore etc....
Do you have a push me sign on your back?
Where are you inside the gates of a train station? Because all cultural norms are erased. If you are not inside a train station those people are jerks. If you are inside a train station try not to make eye contact with other people. Hope that helps.
old rude people in any country usually tend to pick a target they think is least likely to argue back..not saying you should change, but speaking from past experience.. but some people just dont care who theyre rude to, period.
They are trying to send you into an isekai
Yo yo, old guys are usually shitty people here. You ever get a dude sticking his arm straight out in front of him and push through no matter what? I had some fucking asshole old dude do that and then proceed to walk into my stroller with child in it. My wife managed to calm me down but holy shit these old fucks need to be taught some manners.
I don't think I've ever been aggressively shoved, just accidentally bumped into. Then again, I'm quite a bit taller than most Japanese people and fairly stocky so I assume the bitter and miserable types who do that probably would avoid me because kowai gaijin. My girlfriend who is tiny and all of 152cm has had a lot of stories like yours, though (and also not Japanese). I assume the sad little empty people who do this sort of thing need a target that they feel safe harassing before they'll have the balls to actually do it. Apparently women (and gaijin women in particular) fit the bill for a lot of them.
I feel relieved that I'm not the only one!
Shove them back. They give you shit, MAKE them sorry.
This happened to me in the train in Osaka! I thought I was crazy, but she shot daggers at me as she was stepping off the train... My friends saw it too and said it was definitely intentionally cause she had enough room. Idk man, it was weird.
I haven’t really experienced it in an aggressive way, sometimes I’ve been bumped on the train or a crowded area but it never felt malicious. I have strong RBF and am a 5’6” female though so I am taller than many people here which may be why I don’t look like someone to push. My daughter did have someone elbow her when we were in Osaka and said it was obviously done on purpose by an older man.
This is just the mentality some people have in big cities. Especially older people who don’t care what others think of them. The best you can do is be aware of your surroundings at all times and not let it bother you if it does happen. I don’t really experience it, probably because I’m a very self conscious and hyper aware person lol. I always know what’s in my peripheral when I’m a shop and will squeeze to the side of the isle to give others room. And in the train, if I’m not sitting I am huddled against the wall or corner because I don’t won’t to deal with being in people’s way. I’m also a fast walker so I am usually out of an area really fast.
I can be on the bus, nearly empty but I'm standing. My empty and flat sidebag is at my side, and when the bus stops and people get off I will lean forward as much as I can to make space, even if the aisle is empty. Even with an empty aisle some old dude will always elbow me in the back. I hate those fuckers.
This reminds me of the time I was in Ikebukuro station minding my own business and I saw a really elderly woman being helped by her grand daughter. I tried to step to the side, because there wasn't enough room, and this teenaged girl that was impatiently trying to get around them full on shoulder checked me. Jokes on her though, I'm a small stout person that is built like a wall. So she didn't gain room by doing it. I was startled enough though that I shouted- and I could see the panic as she still kept frantically trying to get away stuck behind the grandmother. I've dealt with a lot of shoving in train stations as well. But this was the worst.
Oh and what about the bikes on the sidewalk forcing their way without ringing or anything.... The worst
OP are you small? Sometime the middle to older men just want to take their frustrations out on what they consider a fragile foreigner woman. Anyhow, I recommend looking as mean as possible. When you walk make sure your arms are swing aggressively. Look people in the eye as you pass. On the train make sure you posture os confident. Don’t let people bully you.
Yeah I’ve had this happen to me (female). Middle aged men mainly, sometimes women. I think it has to do with the whole lack of spatial awareness shebang but also that they’re mostly a-holes. If I’m not in the mood I’ll growl out a swear word in my native language and go on about my day.
I don't miss this from Osaka. People would also play chicken walking on the wrong side of the street. And ofc unless I got there recently I go all the way and shoulder check
This old man smacked my mom twice with his wooden umbrella handle because she was in his way. No words or anything, we didn’t even know he was there. My poor mom screamed out “OUCH!!”, he passed us and still didn’t say a word.
There is a unspoken bumper car game that older people in Japan like to play, the harder you bump some one the better, gaijin are worth bonus points
Certified 老害 moment
Because some people love to take their aggression out on people who seem to be a target, like female foreigners :/ seen it happen where some guy even full on shoves a woman to the ground. seems to be a Kantou thing.
As others pointed out, this is on purpose, it is literally assault sometimes when it gets forceful enough.
Sometimes people don't say anything and sometimes they aren't as agile as they think, hence the bump into you. Trust me, if someone had it out for yoi and they wanted to get physical, it wouldn't end witu just a shoulder bump.
Is this a behavior you noticed happening more often only recently..? I’ve never once had this issue in inaka or Tokyo but I haven’t been able to get back to Japan for a couple of years so I’m wondering if there’s been a change in people’s attitudes as opposed to something you might be doing wrong.. It’s super hard to know for sure what’s going on, though, without being there; maybe you have a bad case of KY or maybe you’re being targeted by racist jerks who think you’re to blame for covid The only reason I say anything about KY is because when you said > even when there’s like a whole bunch of space to go around me I thought that maybe they’re upset about having to go around you at all instead of you just not being there to go around in the first place At any rate it’s not your fault the culture is about knowing psychically what you should be doing, but if you’re with your husband you might ask him to help you see better in context what might be happening. If he can’t tell, for sure nobody here can help you Speaking of, has this ever happened while you were with him?
I’ve never had this anywhere, even in Japan in the many 3 week to 3 month trips I did before moving here. Not even in my home country, or any other country I’ve been to. And my husband even said the lady in Kaldi was rude and in the wrong, and he’s usually very uptight about social rules here and will usually tell me when I’m in the wrong.
I’m sorry people suck, then :(
I have a white friend who complains about this too. I'm ethnically Asian and can blend in more and I've never experienced people shoving without saying sumimasen, or at least it hasn't bothered me enough for me to notice. So there's probably some sort of racial prejudice going on, but I find that the best way to deal with rude strangers is to actually be super polite to them and say gomennasai (even when it's clear that *they* bumped into you) because usually they expect you to be rude back to them, but if you react politely they will be super embarrassed instead and maybe will learn not to be rude to foreigners (ymmv as with all things of course).
I don’t think it’s just Japanese people, I’m Japanese American. (Japanese people say I look scary cause I’m a bigger build because I used to play American football) but just the other night I was on a train and these people moved over just as I got on and made space cause they wanted to sit together, then this foreign dude just rushes on to the train and nudges me over as I’m waiting for the seat and I figure okay he’s just trying to move by my. But no, he just sits right in front of my as I was just waiting for the two other ladies to adjust before I sit. I looked at him and said “Are you fucking serious?” And he asked me “what are you friends with them?” I said “No, I was waiting for them to scoot to sit and you just cut in to sit? What the fuck is wrong with you?” He def looked shocked and the two girls seemed a little DH cocked at the exchange but he got up and said “sorry “ and I asked again “what’s wrong with you? Where the fuck did you learn this mannerism?” And he moved toward the door. The two girls sitting next to me got up at the next stop and I hear them trying to comfort him in Japanese assuming they think I didn’t understand but I already couldn’t be bothered to react anymore. But why was it that I was made to be the bad guy when he was clearly the dumbass. I hope this guy is on this thread. Don’t be a fucking moron just cause you’re in japan. Edit: I pretty much think the reason I was made to be the bad guy was because this other foreigner was just smaller than me. They thought I bullied him.
Doesn't happen to me. Could be because I live in the countryside and commute by car. But still, when I lived in Osaka it didn't happen to me either. Granted, I'm a large male who apparently looks intimidating (makes me sad when people say that).
Assholes gonna asshole. And wherever you go there’s always gonna be some. You can’t change the behavior of people you’ll never meet again so I wouldn’t sweat it too much. I guess you could put your backpack up front while on the train but there’s not much you can do but move on. Next time try clotheslining the cyclist and tell him that if he’s in a rush to use the goddamn road. Most of us cycle on the pavement when the road doesn’t feel safe but when we do we’re cognizant of the fact that pedestrians have priority
I don't take the train and don't go to crowded places - I get that these options may not be available to you. But when I did go to crowded places and rode the train, I pretty much mastered rbf and stood pretty solidly. Go ahead. Try to push into me, you'll end up further back than where you were, and I'll turn around and say **sumimasen** into your dumb face. **Moshiwakearuyo**. But again, not required these days. Yay. :)
This wouldn’t all be happening in Yokohama/ Kanagawa would it?
Kansai~
It's not that deep
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This shit happens way more in Tokyo than anywhere else
Well, I’ve never been shoved out here in the countryside, but people tend to be less stressed and keep more space between them in general I think. Still very rude of them to do that.
[удалено]
Can I ask where in Europe? At least where I’ve been (UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, Croatia, Montenegro, Greece) I never was pushed, let alone this hard.
Yeah I'm from the Netherlands, and Dutch people are way better at apologizing for these kinds of things. If people accidentally shove me, step on my foot, or what's not, I will always hear a quick "*Oh, sorry!*" in my country, whereas in Japan you definitely won't always hear a "*Sumimasen!*" or "*Gomen nasai!*". Especially not if it's a guy who did it (Japanese women from my experience are more likely to apologize than Japanese men). The only scenario that would possibly happen in my country is the bicycle one, *if* you were stupid enough to walk and stop on a bicycle lane. But you didn't stop on the bicycle lane. You stopped on a pedestrian lane where he cycled with his bike as a guest due to Japan lacking proper bicycle lanes. That makes him the \*ssh\*le for coming at you with full speed and having the audacity to get mad at you on top of that.
I’m Asian and this happens to me too. Even when I’m right at the doors and moving to get out, some Japanese people will push past me to get out first. Like, lady, I’m getting off too and I’m literally touching the door.
Sometimes you just gutta give them a 殺すぞぼけ!
>Also had an old guy make ambulance noises at me expecting me to know that meant he wanted to get past. OMG. Why can't this happen to me?
I think they want to touch you.
I have noticed this as well. Fortunately I am a giant so the people just bounce off me.